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Detroit313
Posts: 581
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:56 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Jan 04, 2021 2:18 am

ORD and PHL were getting huge before the virus. They even flew or were going to fly to places like Budapest, Krakow, Prague, Dubrovnik, Berlin etc.. Some of those are places that the other legacy airlines in the US did not even serve at all.

Not sure what other places you wanted them to serve in Europe. PHL was out of gates for international in summer of 2019.

In regards to JFK, AA had exclusively all 777 product in 2019. That was pretty awesome and in many aspects better that what Delta offered at JFK.
 
ABEguy
Posts: 130
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:02 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Jan 04, 2021 2:56 am

Detroit313 wrote:
ORD and PHL were getting huge before the virus. They even flew or were going to fly to places like Budapest, Krakow, Prague, Dubrovnik, Berlin etc.. Some of those are places that the other legacy airlines in the US did not even serve at all.

Not sure what other places you wanted them to serve in Europe. PHL was out of gates for international in summer of 2019.

In regards to JFK, AA had exclusively all 777 product in 2019. That was pretty awesome and in many aspects better that what Delta offered at JFK.


I was thinking the same thing. Before COVID, AA’s PHL hub served daily during peak time: LHR(2x) EDI SNN MAN DUB GLA(was getting cut) CDG LIS MAD BCN TXL PRG BUD VCE FCO BLQ(was getting cut) ATH DBV. Also CMN was scheduled to start. If that’s underutilization then I don’t know what to say.
 
Nicknuzzii
Posts: 1552
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:57 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:01 am

Detroit313 wrote:
ORD and PHL were getting huge before the virus. They even flew or were going to fly to places like Budapest, Krakow, Prague, Dubrovnik, Berlin etc.. Some of those are places that the other legacy airlines in the US did not even serve at all.

Not sure what other places you wanted them to serve in Europe. PHL was out of gates for international in summer of 2019.

In regards to JFK, AA had exclusively all 777 product in 2019. That was pretty awesome and in many aspects better that what Delta offered at JFK.


I’ll throw my opinion in. PHL - MXP/FRA/MUC/GVA all would have made sense for starters.
 
Detroit313
Posts: 581
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:56 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:19 am

Nicknuzzii wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
ORD and PHL were getting huge before the virus. They even flew or were going to fly to places like Budapest, Krakow, Prague, Dubrovnik, Berlin etc.. Some of those are places that the other legacy airlines in the US did not even serve at all.

Not sure what other places you wanted them to serve in Europe. PHL was out of gates for international in summer of 2019.

In regards to JFK, AA had exclusively all 777 product in 2019. That was pretty awesome and in many aspects better that what Delta offered at JFK.


I’ll throw my opinion in. PHL - MXP/FRA/MUC/GVA all would have made sense for starters.


True but most of PHL's holes were served from DFW, CLT, MIA, JFK.

Philadelphia was simply maxed out in 2018 - 2019. As I said above, places like Casablanca, Prague, Bologna, Budapest, Dubrovnik were a big deal for a US airline so we cannot say we were not impressed by thei amount of routes from Philly.

It is OK to leave some routes like Milan, Frankfurt and Munich for other hubs. They didn't have the widebodies needed to serve all those from PHL. I'd rather see exciting new destinations like Dubrovnik and Casablanca than Milan which was already served by JFK and MIA.
 
Nicknuzzii
Posts: 1552
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:57 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:21 am

Detroit313 wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
ORD and PHL were getting huge before the virus. They even flew or were going to fly to places like Budapest, Krakow, Prague, Dubrovnik, Berlin etc.. Some of those are places that the other legacy airlines in the US did not even serve at all.

Not sure what other places you wanted them to serve in Europe. PHL was out of gates for international in summer of 2019.

In regards to JFK, AA had exclusively all 777 product in 2019. That was pretty awesome and in many aspects better that what Delta offered at JFK.


I’ll throw my opinion in. PHL - MXP/FRA/MUC/GVA all would have made sense for starters.


True but most of PHL's holes were served from DFW, CLT, MIA, JFK.

Philadelphia was simply maxed out in 2018 - 2019. As I said above, places like Casablanca, Prague, Bologna, Budapest, Dubrovnik were a big deal for a US airline so we cannot say we were not impressed by thei amount of routes from Philly.

It is OK to leave some routes like Milan, Frankfurt and Munich for other hubs. They didn't have the widebodies needed to serve all those from PHL. I'd rather see exciting new destinations like Dubrovnik and Casablanca than Milan which was already served by JFK and MIA.


If we’re comparing it to UA’s essentially model EWR TATL hub, these are important markets that need to be filled.
 
mjba257
Posts: 95
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:21 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:22 am

phlphan wrote:
PHL is the best TATL hub in AA's system. Just look at geography. The entire USA can connect in PHL to go to any main city or secondary city in Europe. PHL will be right back where it was when this virus passes. To have some of these flights go out of Dallas (TLV), no one on the east coast will connect in DFW and will have to use BA or LH or QR but then that adds a connection. AA needs to use PHL as a major TATL gateway which also allows for a USA connection rather than having to connect in Europe. Also as has been mentioned, there is no other competition at PHL for AA, no gate constraints (except in the Summer of 2019 when AA also used remote areas), no slot restrictions. Yes, all international flights rely on feed and not only O & D but PHL is what American needs for TATL --then that can be complemented with ORD and CLT if needed.


Couldn't have said it better. Just from a geographic standpoint, PHL could serve as a gateway to Europe, Africa, the Middle East, and India for almost the entire United States. Heck, you could even serve several East Asian cities from their similar to how UA does from EWR. With a strong regional and transcan network, in addition to the right equipment, PHL could support nonstop flights to places like Lagos, Johannesburg, Nairobi, Moscow, Istanbul, Dubai, Karachi, Delhi, Mumbai, Tokyo, Seoul, Beijing, Shanghai, Hong Kong
 
ABEguy
Posts: 130
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:02 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:27 am

Nicknuzzii wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
ORD and PHL were getting huge before the virus. They even flew or were going to fly to places like Budapest, Krakow, Prague, Dubrovnik, Berlin etc.. Some of those are places that the other legacy airlines in the US did not even serve at all.

Not sure what other places you wanted them to serve in Europe. PHL was out of gates for international in summer of 2019.

In regards to JFK, AA had exclusively all 777 product in 2019. That was pretty awesome and in many aspects better that what Delta offered at JFK.


I’ll throw my opinion in. PHL - MXP/FRA/MUC/GVA all would have made sense for starters.


AA did serve both MUC and FRA from PHL for years but they were both cut 3/19 and 10/18 respectively. I guess it didn’t make sense to them.
 
mjba257
Posts: 95
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:21 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:30 am

Nicknuzzii wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:

I’ll throw my opinion in. PHL - MXP/FRA/MUC/GVA all would have made sense for starters.


True but most of PHL's holes were served from DFW, CLT, MIA, JFK.

Philadelphia was simply maxed out in 2018 - 2019. As I said above, places like Casablanca, Prague, Bologna, Budapest, Dubrovnik were a big deal for a US airline so we cannot say we were not impressed by thei amount of routes from Philly.

It is OK to leave some routes like Milan, Frankfurt and Munich for other hubs. They didn't have the widebodies needed to serve all those from PHL. I'd rather see exciting new destinations like Dubrovnik and Casablanca than Milan which was already served by JFK and MIA.


If we’re comparing it to UA’s essentially model EWR TATL hub, these are important markets that need to be filled.


EWR has far more premium O&D traffic than PHL does, although PHL does have a nice share of those. But even though UA's TATL ops at EWR is larger than AA's PHL ops, I still see far better potential at PHL. For starters, UA is competing with Delta and all the other foreign carriers at JFK with their EWR ops. AA faces no such competition at PHL. Also, lets be honest, PHL is a much nicer facility than EWR. Yes, B & C could use an upgrade, but the International Terminal at PHL is nicer than pretty much anything the Port Authority can offer at their airports. And most importantly, PHL is not slot restricted like EWR. It's a lot easier to start routes from PHL than EWR
 
Ishrion
Topic Author
Posts: 3353
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:17 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:23 am

dcajet wrote:
Effective Jan 4th, American's upgauging AA996/7 daily svc DFW-EZE to a 787-9 from the current 787-8.


This upcoming week will be a big "shift" in AA's network. Some random notes:

- DFW-ICN upgauges from 787-8 to 777-200ER
- MIA-GIG upgauges from 787-8 to 777-200ER
- Passenger LHR-CLT resumes (3x weekly)
- Passenger LHR-ORD/JFK resume (1x daily)
- Passenger DFW-LIM resumes, now on the 787-8 compared to the 757-200 when it last operated pre-COVID.
- 1x daily PHL-CUN sees the 787-8
 
PSA727
Posts: 857
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 7:49 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:23 am

The size of the Philly hub as we know it (pre-COVID) is gone in my opinion. Will it get de-hubbed? No. Will it lose its strategic importance? Yes. And it will do so for two main reasons: DCA and JFK. Later this year, all of AA's gates at DCA will be connected airside. The commuter "basement gate" will be gone and replaced by a 14-gate new terminal with its own Admiral's Club. So it will be much, much easier to transfer passengers there than before. Aside from a handful of mainly small stations in the northeast, every city with service to PHL also has service to DCA (within the perimeter-rule at DCA). And when you factor in the PHL-connected cities outside of that perimeter-rule (and which do not have nonstop service to DCA), what makes the connection in PHL more unique than connecting those passengers at ORD or DFW, or even CLT?

Now let's talk about JFK. AA is giving indications that it wants to rebuild TATL service out of there. They have announced ATH service (a PHL route), and TLV service (another PHL route US dropped right before the merger because it was a loss maker). US also tried PHL-MXP. And then cut it after a couple of years. AMS and ZRH? Probably better off being shifted over to JFK. And I think one of the most shocking cuts at PHL was its MAN service. As that used to be one of US's most business-centric TATL routes out of PHL (similar to AA's RDU-LHR route). AA also (prior to COVID) got rid of its crappy and uncompetive 763s from JFK, and replaced them with the much better 772s. And now we have the upcoming code-share agreement with B6. So a lot of domestic routes that AA was never going to fly out of JFK (and thus provide connecting service to its TATL flights) will now be possible. And then there's the TATL O&D numbers... much higher for JFK than for PHL. Keep in mind that "O&D" means both ends of the equation. Who in Europe thinks of going to Philly as their destination? What about NYC? And, I would guess that the O&D numbers in the J cabin are higher out of JFK than PHL, as well. So, with higher O&D numbers you need to fill fewer seats with connecting passengers. Also, if you look at the top ten connecting cities on the PHL TATL routes, most of them already have AA service to JFK (like LAX/SFO/LAS/MCO/MIA). And the B6 flights will add even more to the equation. And before someone says, "Yeah, but passengers will have to take a bus between the B6 terminal and T-8 at JFK in order to connect!", let me remind people that is how people get from AA's F gates to the international flights out of the A gates at PHL.

Moreover, AA should finally give PHL the finger simply because the city government has been nothing but pains in the arse towards not just AA today, but towards US for several years prior to the merger. Why is the PHL Flagship Lounge the only one to not have opened up? Every other one has been constructed and done for a while. Look at the crappy job they did building Terminal F. Remember the problems US was having with the local government about a decade ago to get more access to gates in Terminal A in order to increase the number of TATL flights out of PHL? On the other hand, the local authorities in CLT seem to go out of their way to be accomadatiing to AA (and US prior). So, it's not impossible to be cooperative. Just not important enough, apparently.
fly high, pay low...Germanwings!
 
IAHObserver
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2020 10:14 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:37 pm

OKCDCA wrote:
jeffh747 wrote:
Completely disregarding your ignorant last sentence about FAs "not doing their jobs" because they aren't serving beverages, the rest of your post matches my observations exactly. Nothing but full loads on the flights I've been on, and a huge lack of care for social distancing. As soon as the preboarding call is made, nearly every single passenger crowds up to boards, and everyone is on top of each other in the jetway.

Personally I'm not sure whether blocking a middle seat is effective or not, given how already densely packed the planes are, and the fact nobody cares to social distance anyways. If members of the traveling public really want to social distance, traveling by plane is probably not the best way to do that.

Maybe I run a tight ship at my company, but I wouldn't say expecting an employee to do a part of their job that is part of the service the company is supposed to provide is ignorant... And yes, I understand the first part of a FA's duties are safety. Sitting in the back and reading a book or playing on a cell phone the whole flight is not part of the FA job description last I checked. Perhaps it's the attitude I've gotten from a couple of FA's when asking for a glass of water that's turned me off. Getting a noticeable eye roll as they put down the book/cell phone to get up is not flattering.
I agree, AA's service level is abysmal right now and another reason I'm moving over to UA where my last flew flights have been very nice even with their bagged snack service.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 3891
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:49 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
ORD and PHL were getting huge before the virus. They even flew or were going to fly to places like Budapest, Krakow, Prague, Dubrovnik, Berlin etc.. Some of those are places that the other legacy airlines in the US did not even serve at all.

Not sure what other places you wanted them to serve in Europe. PHL was out of gates for international in summer of 2019.

In regards to JFK, AA had exclusively all 777 product in 2019. That was pretty awesome and in many aspects better that what Delta offered at JFK.


I’ll throw my opinion in. PHL - MXP/FRA/MUC/GVA all would have made sense for starters.


AA dumped FRA and MUC from PHL a couple of years ago. MUC moved to DFW, and got dropped. There's no real market for GVA from PHL. UA flies it from EWR (once COVID schedules are lifted) and LX flies it from JFK (not operating now, of course). GVA is a NY centric market from the US.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 3891
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:57 pm

Detroit313 wrote:
ORD and PHL were getting huge before the virus. They even flew or were going to fly to places like Budapest, Krakow, Prague, Dubrovnik, Berlin etc.. Some of those are places that the other legacy airlines in the US did not even serve at all.

Not sure what other places you wanted them to serve in Europe. PHL was out of gates for international in summer of 2019.

In regards to JFK, AA had exclusively all 777 product in 2019. That was pretty awesome and in many aspects better that what Delta offered at JFK.


AA's c-suite was very candid that JFK turned profitable in Q2-2019 once it replaced the last two 767-300ER international routes (CDG, MAD) with the 777. By going all 777 on long haul routes (GRU 77W, LHR mix of 77W and 772) and 772 on all the others (CDG, MXP, FCO, MAD, BCN, EZE) it offered a consistent product (except for the mixed business class seats on the 772), all planes with premium economy. AA also hauled a lot of cargo out of JFK pre COVID and continues to do so now. Not sure it was substantially better than what DL was offering, but it did achieve the needful, as the 767 had a poor dispatch reliability rate and a subpar product all around. I'm not sure a massive build up at JFK for AA is in the works but some rebalancing of routes between PHL and JFK is very likely. The yields out of JFK are stronger in some markets, but it will depend on corporate demand returning.
Last edited by ContinentalEWR on Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
onwFan
Posts: 526
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:02 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:58 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
ORD and PHL were getting huge before the virus. They even flew or were going to fly to places like Budapest, Krakow, Prague, Dubrovnik, Berlin etc.. Some of those are places that the other legacy airlines in the US did not even serve at all.

Not sure what other places you wanted them to serve in Europe. PHL was out of gates for international in summer of 2019.

In regards to JFK, AA had exclusively all 777 product in 2019. That was pretty awesome and in many aspects better that what Delta offered at JFK.


I’ll throw my opinion in. PHL - MXP/FRA/MUC/GVA all would have made sense for starters.


AA dumped FRA and MUC from PHL a couple of years ago. MUC moved to DFW, and got dropped. There's no real market for GVA from PHL. UA flies it from EWR (once COVID schedules are lifted) and LX flies it from JFK (not operating now, of course). GVA is a NY centric market from the US.

MUC did not get moved to DFW. It was moved to CLT and is still there. DFW-MUC was an addition, and probably would have stayed if not for covid.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 3891
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:02 pm

onwFan wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:

I’ll throw my opinion in. PHL - MXP/FRA/MUC/GVA all would have made sense for starters.


AA dumped FRA and MUC from PHL a couple of years ago. MUC moved to DFW, and got dropped. There's no real market for GVA from PHL. UA flies it from EWR (once COVID schedules are lifted) and LX flies it from JFK (not operating now, of course). GVA is a NY centric market from the US.

MUC did not get moved to DFW. It was moved to CLT and is still there. DFW-MUC was an addition, and probably would have stayed if not for covid.


Yes, that's correct my mistake. AA has struggled for years to make Germany work full stop though. Obviously, US-Germany is dominated by LH and UA, with the connectivity opportunities that exist at FRA/MUC, and Delta holds its own. AA seems to have difficulty with point-of-sale originating in Germany so flights to DFW/CLT as the #1 and #2 hubs are the only ones that really work.
 
usairways85
Posts: 4197
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2001 11:59 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:16 pm

AA's future in JFK can go multiple ways. The AA/B6 partnership could be a short(er) term thing to help both airlines get through Covid-19 or it can turn out to be a longer term relationship post Covid-19. It puts AA in a better position at JFK, but there will still be immense competition on TA routes and DL is not going to simply roll over, especially after AA's planned build up at SEA. I see some more route rationalization across PHL and JFK, but I don't see JFK gaining 5-10 more routes all at the expense of PHL. I also question CLT's TA future, 772 is a huge aircraft to fill full of connecting passengers that can be routed through ORD or PHL...or DFW. I feel like the CLT 772 base was a product of simply not enough 787s in the fleet yet and PHL being a priority given the larger number of destinations.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 3891
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:57 pm

usairways85 wrote:
AA's future in JFK can go multiple ways. The AA/B6 partnership could be a short(er) term thing to help both airlines get through Covid-19 or it can turn out to be a longer term relationship post Covid-19. It puts AA in a better position at JFK, but there will still be immense competition on TA routes and DL is not going to simply roll over, especially after AA's planned build up at SEA. I see some more route rationalization across PHL and JFK, but I don't see JFK gaining 5-10 more routes all at the expense of PHL. I also question CLT's TA future, 772 is a huge aircraft to fill full of connecting passengers that can be routed through ORD or PHL...or DFW. I feel like the CLT 772 base was a product of simply not enough 787s in the fleet yet and PHL being a priority given the larger number of destinations.


Yeah, I would agree that JFK long haul will not grow a whole lot (let's say fewer than 5 new routes) though I think the A321XLR will help open up some things not currently doable. I think the partnership with JetBlue will need to be much more transformative than what was in place in the mid-2000s. Given all the recent route announcements at both AA and B6 in overlapping markets (MIA, FLL, LAX, BOS), I have doubts this partnership will take off. It will be interesting to see though how AA's MX beach markets do and whether they are here to stay (SJD, CUN) and whether more are coming. CUN has been around for a while.

On CLT and TATL, I think some core markets will remain (LHR, MUC) but CDG, FCO, and so forth, I don't see coming back unless there is a boom in demand for summer seasonal travel once the pandemic is over. Don't think that is on the cards until 2022. The 777 can work at CLT. It is a huge hub and the 787 isn't the right plane for CLT until there are more on property.
 
Varsity1
Posts: 2276
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 4:55 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:39 pm

To add fuel to the JFK fire, AA hired UA's route planner, who has a ton of NYC market knowledge from UA's EWR operations.
 
BarrenLucidity
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:29 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:41 pm

usairways85 wrote:
AA's future in JFK can go multiple ways. The AA/B6 partnership could be a short(er) term thing to help both airlines get through Covid-19 or it can turn out to be a longer term relationship post Covid-19. It puts AA in a better position at JFK, but there will still be immense competition on TA routes and DL is not going to simply roll over, especially after AA's planned build up at SEA. I see some more route rationalization across PHL and JFK, but I don't see JFK gaining 5-10 more routes all at the expense of PHL. I also question CLT's TA future, 772 is a huge aircraft to fill full of connecting passengers that can be routed through ORD or PHL...or DFW. I feel like the CLT 772 base was a product of simply not enough 787s in the fleet yet and PHL being a priority given the larger number of destinations.


CLT had no issues filling the 333 or 332 on its TA routes and CLT enplanement costs are the lowest of all the major hubs and CLT tickets are some of the most expensive in the country for O&D. The issue at CLT is gate constraints for wide bodies and the FIS zone. It's getting more widebody gates and revamping the FIS zone. There is no reason to sacrifice CLT TA only to incur higher costs. If I was PHL though I would be nervous. More expensive than DCA, not as connected as JFK. Once the DCA, JFK, and CLT terminal revamps are done there isn't going to be a great story to keep PHL as a primary TA hub. I'd reduce costs by swapping lower volume to DCA/CLT and increase presence in JFK for OneWorld terminal connections / capture O&D.
 
onwFan
Posts: 526
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:02 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:48 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
onwFan wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:

AA dumped FRA and MUC from PHL a couple of years ago. MUC moved to DFW, and got dropped. There's no real market for GVA from PHL. UA flies it from EWR (once COVID schedules are lifted) and LX flies it from JFK (not operating now, of course). GVA is a NY centric market from the US.

MUC did not get moved to DFW. It was moved to CLT and is still there. DFW-MUC was an addition, and probably would have stayed if not for covid.


Yes, that's correct my mistake. AA has struggled for years to make Germany work full stop though. Obviously, US-Germany is dominated by LH and UA, with the connectivity opportunities that exist at FRA/MUC, and Delta holds its own. AA seems to have difficulty with point-of-sale originating in Germany so flights to DFW/CLT as the #1 and #2 hubs are the only ones that really work.

Yes, I think the reason DL does better to Germany is historical - they inherited the Frankfurt hub from Pan Am and got some point of sale advantage. Additionally, the automobile links to ATL & DTW work to its advantage. On a similar note, if I am not mistaken, AA is relatively strong in CDG due to the TWA hub there...
 
usairways85
Posts: 4197
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2001 11:59 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Jan 04, 2021 6:11 pm

BarrenLucidity wrote:
usairways85 wrote:
AA's future in JFK can go multiple ways. The AA/B6 partnership could be a short(er) term thing to help both airlines get through Covid-19 or it can turn out to be a longer term relationship post Covid-19. It puts AA in a better position at JFK, but there will still be immense competition on TA routes and DL is not going to simply roll over, especially after AA's planned build up at SEA. I see some more route rationalization across PHL and JFK, but I don't see JFK gaining 5-10 more routes all at the expense of PHL. I also question CLT's TA future, 772 is a huge aircraft to fill full of connecting passengers that can be routed through ORD or PHL...or DFW. I feel like the CLT 772 base was a product of simply not enough 787s in the fleet yet and PHL being a priority given the larger number of destinations.


CLT had no issues filling the 333 or 332 on its TA routes and CLT enplanement costs are the lowest of all the major hubs and CLT tickets are some of the most expensive in the country for O&D. The issue at CLT is gate constraints for wide bodies and the FIS zone. It's getting more widebody gates and revamping the FIS zone. There is no reason to sacrifice CLT TA only to incur higher costs. If I was PHL though I would be nervous. More expensive than DCA, not as connected as JFK. Once the DCA, JFK, and CLT terminal revamps are done there isn't going to be a great story to keep PHL as a primary TA hub. I'd reduce costs by swapping lower volume to DCA/CLT and increase presence in JFK for OneWorld terminal connections / capture O&D.

AA operated the 333 on CLT-LHR and FCO. I cannot think of another outside of random subs. Maybe MUC and DUB here and there. DUB, CDG, BCN, FRA, MUC, MAD were all the 332.

IIRC the 333 had ~290 seats and ~28 J seats.
The 332 has 247 seats and 20 J seats
The 772 has 273 seats and 37 J seats.

The 772 represents an 11% increase in seats over the 332 and an 85% increase in J seats. Can CLT fill them, yes, but at what fare point, and what does post COVID travel look like. AA had a ton of lift to FCO, operating 5 flights, it may take some time to get back up to that capacity.

Is AA really interested in turning DCA, that is primed for a high yielding O&D operation, into a lower yielding connecting hub?
 
maps4ltd
Posts: 725
Joined: Tue May 08, 2018 4:48 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Jan 04, 2021 6:15 pm

Still surprised that ORD/DFW-JFK aren't running at all right now, with CLT hanging on by a thread.
Next flights:
March 14: Delta Air Lines DL1375, STL-SLC, Airbus A220-300
March 20: Southwest Airlines WN5412, SLC-STL, Boeing 737-700
 
sagechan
Posts: 364
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 6:14 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Jan 04, 2021 6:25 pm

BarrenLucidity wrote:
usairways85 wrote:
AA's future in JFK can go multiple ways. The AA/B6 partnership could be a short(er) term thing to help both airlines get through Covid-19 or it can turn out to be a longer term relationship post Covid-19. It puts AA in a better position at JFK, but there will still be immense competition on TA routes and DL is not going to simply roll over, especially after AA's planned build up at SEA. I see some more route rationalization across PHL and JFK, but I don't see JFK gaining 5-10 more routes all at the expense of PHL. I also question CLT's TA future, 772 is a huge aircraft to fill full of connecting passengers that can be routed through ORD or PHL...or DFW. I feel like the CLT 772 base was a product of simply not enough 787s in the fleet yet and PHL being a priority given the larger number of destinations.



CLT had no issues filling the 333 or 332 on its TA routes and CLT enplanement costs are the lowest of all the major hubs and CLT tickets are some of the most expensive in the country for O&D. The issue at CLT is gate constraints for wide bodies and the FIS zone. It's getting more widebody gates and revamping the FIS zone. There is no reason to sacrifice CLT TA only to incur higher costs. If I was PHL though I would be nervous. More expensive than DCA, not as connected as JFK. Once the DCA, JFK, and CLT terminal revamps are done there isn't going to be a great story to keep PHL as a primary TA hub. I'd reduce costs by swapping lower volume to DCA/CLT and increase presence in JFK for OneWorld terminal connections / capture O&D.

The issue with AA and JFK vs PHL is that it's impossible for JFK to match PHL in domestic connectivity on AA revenue generating flights. AA never had enough JFK slots to make it a true connecting hub, and it has too many for a strategic high value O&D center. PHL has neither of those but is both a smaller market than NYC it also faces leakage to both NYC & greater DC airports.

The JetBlue partnership is more about bringing their FFs to AA metal flying out of JFK instead in competitors. There will be some connections, but that's a secondary effect. So this hookup does make more NY O&D focused international long haul more viable, but it should have limited effect of PHL since there isn't a ton of NY-PHL-TATL travel as NYers will just fly direct or connect in Europe. So I don't think PHL has much to be nervous about from NY gains.

CLT will be fine and post pandemic it's TATL summer supplemental flying will return. I wouldn't be surprised to see more 787s instead of 777s there eventually though. In the end CLT is cheap and high volume and very well connected.
717, 733, 734, 738, 739, 744, 752, 763, 772, 77W, 789, A319, A320, A321, A332, A333, A359, MD88, CRJ, CR7, CR9, DH1, DH2, DH3, S340, ER4, E170, E175, E190/CO, NW, US, AC, NH, AA, UA, DL, WN, WS, SK, VY, LA, QF, AR, AV, MH, KA, AS
 
Adipocere
Posts: 328
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:35 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:05 pm

SumChristianus wrote:

.... but PHX might have gotten a new lease on life within the AA network vis a vis the seemingly fated death by being squeezed between DFW and LAX.

I definitely see PHX at least returning to normal faster than any eventual comeback at LAX for AA


It would be interesting to see how AA teams up with AS in SEA and maybe PDX. Instead of PHX being caught between LAX-DFW axis it could get KO’d by LAX-SEA. I would consider PHX a threatened hub for a while more.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2491
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:09 pm

sagechan wrote:
BarrenLucidity wrote:
usairways85 wrote:
AA's future in JFK can go multiple ways. The AA/B6 partnership could be a short(er) term thing to help both airlines get through Covid-19 or it can turn out to be a longer term relationship post Covid-19. It puts AA in a better position at JFK, but there will still be immense competition on TA routes and DL is not going to simply roll over, especially after AA's planned build up at SEA. I see some more route rationalization across PHL and JFK, but I don't see JFK gaining 5-10 more routes all at the expense of PHL. I also question CLT's TA future, 772 is a huge aircraft to fill full of connecting passengers that can be routed through ORD or PHL...or DFW. I feel like the CLT 772 base was a product of simply not enough 787s in the fleet yet and PHL being a priority given the larger number of destinations.



CLT had no issues filling the 333 or 332 on its TA routes and CLT enplanement costs are the lowest of all the major hubs and CLT tickets are some of the most expensive in the country for O&D. The issue at CLT is gate constraints for wide bodies and the FIS zone. It's getting more widebody gates and revamping the FIS zone. There is no reason to sacrifice CLT TA only to incur higher costs. If I was PHL though I would be nervous. More expensive than DCA, not as connected as JFK. Once the DCA, JFK, and CLT terminal revamps are done there isn't going to be a great story to keep PHL as a primary TA hub. I'd reduce costs by swapping lower volume to DCA/CLT and increase presence in JFK for OneWorld terminal connections / capture O&D.

The issue with AA and JFK vs PHL is that it's impossible for JFK to match PHL in domestic connectivity on AA revenue generating flights. AA never had enough JFK slots to make it a true connecting hub, and it has too many for a strategic high value O&D center. PHL has neither of those but is both a smaller market than NYC it also faces leakage to both NYC & greater DC airports.

The JetBlue partnership is more about bringing their FFs to AA metal flying out of JFK instead in competitors. There will be some connections, but that's a secondary effect. So this hookup does make more NY O&D focused international long haul more viable, but it should have limited effect of PHL since there isn't a ton of NY-PHL-TATL travel as NYers will just fly direct or connect in Europe. So I don't think PHL has much to be nervous about from NY gains.

CLT will be fine and post pandemic it's TATL summer supplemental flying will return. I wouldn't be surprised to see more 787s instead of 777s there eventually though. In the end CLT is cheap and high volume and very well connected.

It will stick with the 777s as there is a crew base. Too expensive to fly widebodies with no base.
 
sagechan
Posts: 364
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 6:14 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:15 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
sagechan wrote:
BarrenLucidity wrote:


CLT had no issues filling the 333 or 332 on its TA routes and CLT enplanement costs are the lowest of all the major hubs and CLT tickets are some of the most expensive in the country for O&D. The issue at CLT is gate constraints for wide bodies and the FIS zone. It's getting more widebody gates and revamping the FIS zone. There is no reason to sacrifice CLT TA only to incur higher costs. If I was PHL though I would be nervous. More expensive than DCA, not as connected as JFK. Once the DCA, JFK, and CLT terminal revamps are done there isn't going to be a great story to keep PHL as a primary TA hub. I'd reduce costs by swapping lower volume to DCA/CLT and increase presence in JFK for OneWorld terminal connections / capture O&D.

The issue with AA and JFK vs PHL is that it's impossible for JFK to match PHL in domestic connectivity on AA revenue generating flights. AA never had enough JFK slots to make it a true connecting hub, and it has too many for a strategic high value O&D center. PHL has neither of those but is both a smaller market than NYC it also faces leakage to both NYC & greater DC airports.

The JetBlue partnership is more about bringing their FFs to AA metal flying out of JFK instead in competitors. There will be some connections, but that's a secondary effect. So this hookup does make more NY O&D focused international long haul more viable, but it should have limited effect of PHL since there isn't a ton of NY-PHL-TATL travel as NYers will just fly direct or connect in Europe. So I don't think PHL has much to be nervous about from NY gains.

CLT will be fine and post pandemic it's TATL summer supplemental flying will return. I wouldn't be surprised to see more 787s instead of 777s there eventually though. In the end CLT is cheap and high volume and very well connected.

It will stick with the 777s as there is a crew base. Too expensive to fly widebodies with no base.



Fair point, though I'm thinking more towards the end of the current 787 delivery schedule and beginning of the 772 retirement schedule, not any time soon.
717, 733, 734, 738, 739, 744, 752, 763, 772, 77W, 789, A319, A320, A321, A332, A333, A359, MD88, CRJ, CR7, CR9, DH1, DH2, DH3, S340, ER4, E170, E175, E190/CO, NW, US, AC, NH, AA, UA, DL, WN, WS, SK, VY, LA, QF, AR, AV, MH, KA, AS
 
AC4500
Posts: 272
Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2020 3:02 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:17 pm

USAirALB wrote:
Has AA dropped any PHL routes since the pandemic? PHL-SAT doesn't display in the schedule anywhere, even for this summer. I know they used to do PHL-PDX/SLC but they both appear gone or seasonal only. I cannot see them cutting mainline, as everything that appears that is left is Florida, West Coast, hubs, international, and

PHL-PDX is still seasonal, and is currently scheduled to operate from June 3rd to October 5th. Obviously this can, and likely will change as the start date gets closer. Since AS cut their PDX-PHL flight, AA has a bit more room to work with in terms of local demand.

However, I will say that most PDX-Europe flights won't be resuming anytime soon, so if AA does operate PDX-PHL this year, I think it would be in their best interest to operate an early morning PDX departure instead of their regular red-eye departure to provide Portland passengers with onward connecting service to Europe. Then the year-round PDX-CLT flight can be better utilized in the summer for east coast connections.

Also, PHL-SLC is still operating even now at 5x weekly (scheduled to end on April 5th), which is very surprising IMO. I would think that DL has the upper edge on this route.
Last edited by AC4500 on Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
AS PDX-LAX: 737 MAX 9
QX LAX-PDX: E175
 
sagechan
Posts: 364
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 6:14 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:19 pm

Adipocere wrote:
SumChristianus wrote:

.... but PHX might have gotten a new lease on life within the AA network vis a vis the seemingly fated death by being squeezed between DFW and LAX.

I definitely see PHX at least returning to normal faster than any eventual comeback at LAX for AA


It would be interesting to see how AA teams up with AS in SEA and maybe PDX. Instead of PHX being caught between LAX-DFW axis it could get KO’d by LAX-SEA. I would consider PHX a threatened hub for a while more.

None of the cities that touch the Pacific can replicate or replace PHX and DFW is too far east for any reasonable west/west connection. PHX will remain a hub but won't become a megahub. it was at a fairly rational size before covid and was looking at growth in size with the community growth.
717, 733, 734, 738, 739, 744, 752, 763, 772, 77W, 789, A319, A320, A321, A332, A333, A359, MD88, CRJ, CR7, CR9, DH1, DH2, DH3, S340, ER4, E170, E175, E190/CO, NW, US, AC, NH, AA, UA, DL, WN, WS, SK, VY, LA, QF, AR, AV, MH, KA, AS
 
aviator2000
Posts: 137
Joined: Sun May 20, 2018 11:19 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:54 pm

AA flew daily from BCN to JFK, MIA, PHL, CLT and ORD during the summer season before covid. ATM CLT has already been announced as permanently dropped, so, what are the chances of any of the aforementioned coming back in 2021?
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 3891
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:21 pm

onwFan wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
onwFan wrote:
MUC did not get moved to DFW. It was moved to CLT and is still there. DFW-MUC was an addition, and probably would have stayed if not for covid.


Yes, that's correct my mistake. AA has struggled for years to make Germany work full stop though. Obviously, US-Germany is dominated by LH and UA, with the connectivity opportunities that exist at FRA/MUC, and Delta holds its own. AA seems to have difficulty with point-of-sale originating in Germany so flights to DFW/CLT as the #1 and #2 hubs are the only ones that really work.

Yes, I think the reason DL does better to Germany is historical - they inherited the Frankfurt hub from Pan Am and got some point of sale advantage. Additionally, the automobile links to ATL & DTW work to its advantage. On a similar note, if I am not mistaken, AA is relatively strong in CDG due to the TWA hub there...


Think you're right on DL and Germany and the auto industry connection and DL's long standing presence at some German airports going back to the 1980s, and the FRA hub it acquired from Pan Am and operated from 1991-1997. AA's second largest station in Europe and second largest market after LHR is indeed CDG, but the TWA factor is actually relatively small. AA launched service to Paris in 1987 (to ORY from DFW, ORD, and JFK) and remained at ORY until 1999 when it was forced to move to CDG. In the time it was at ORY, AA also served RDU, MIA, and BOS. Prior to the pandemic, AA was operating up to 2 x daily to CDG from DFW, and once daily from JFK, PHL, CLT, and MIA. DFW frequencies were increased when AF launched CDG-DFW. AA also very briefly operated SJC-CDG and LAX-CDG in 2001 (I don't remember if AA actually launched or just announced the LAX flight, but the SJC did fly for a short time and I think on the 777).

TWA operated a focus operation at CDG for many years and I think was the first US carrier to operate at CDG when the airport opened in the 1970s. TWA flew 2 x daily to JFK and also flew to BOS and STL, and over time, served TLV, FCO, BCN, GVA, and ZRH from CDG, though not all at the same time. When AA acquired TWA, all that was left of TWA at CDG was the JFK service. AA for a time operated double-daily on JFK to CDG, using a 777 and a 757, then consolidated the operation into a single 767-300ER service, before up gauging it back to a 772 in March 2019. TWA's CDG operation was second only to LHR in size.

American's footprint in Paris is not really attributable to TWA. When AA moved to CDG in 1999, it operated from Terminal 2 (Aerogare 2A) where it is still based. TWA used Terminal 1.
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 3988
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:25 pm

aviator2000 wrote:
AA flew daily from BCN to JFK, MIA, PHL, CLT and ORD during the summer season before covid. ATM CLT has already been announced as permanently dropped, so, what are the chances of any of the aforementioned coming back in 2021?


Heavy BCN schedule will come back when cruises come back. I flew CLT-BCN in 2019 and 3/4 of the plane was cruising.
 
onwFan
Posts: 526
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:02 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:38 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
onwFan wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:

Yes, that's correct my mistake. AA has struggled for years to make Germany work full stop though. Obviously, US-Germany is dominated by LH and UA, with the connectivity opportunities that exist at FRA/MUC, and Delta holds its own. AA seems to have difficulty with point-of-sale originating in Germany so flights to DFW/CLT as the #1 and #2 hubs are the only ones that really work.

Yes, I think the reason DL does better to Germany is historical - they inherited the Frankfurt hub from Pan Am and got some point of sale advantage. Additionally, the automobile links to ATL & DTW work to its advantage. On a similar note, if I am not mistaken, AA is relatively strong in CDG due to the TWA hub there...


Think you're right on DL and Germany and the auto industry connection and DL's long standing presence at some German airports going back to the 1980s, and the FRA hub it acquired from Pan Am and operated from 1991-1997. AA's second largest station in Europe and second largest market after LHR is indeed CDG, but the TWA factor is actually relatively small. AA launched service to Paris in 1987 (to ORY from DFW, ORD, and JFK) and remained at ORY until 1999 when it was forced to move to CDG. In the time it was at ORY, AA also served RDU, MIA, and BOS. Prior to the pandemic, AA was operating up to 2 x daily to CDG from DFW, and once daily from JFK, PHL, CLT, and MIA. DFW frequencies were increased when AF launched CDG-DFW. AA also very briefly operated SJC-CDG and LAX-CDG in 2001 (I don't remember if AA actually launched or just announced the LAX flight, but the SJC did fly for a short time and I think on the 777).

TWA operated a focus operation at CDG for many years and I think was the first US carrier to operate at CDG when the airport opened in the 1970s. TWA flew 2 x daily to JFK and also flew to BOS and STL, and over time, served TLV, FCO, BCN, GVA, and ZRH from CDG, though not all at the same time. When AA acquired TWA, all that was left of TWA at CDG was the JFK service. AA for a time operated double-daily on JFK to CDG, using a 777 and a 757, then consolidated the operation into a single 767-300ER service, before up gauging it back to a 772 in March 2019. TWA's CDG operation was second only to LHR in size.

American's footprint in Paris is not really attributable to TWA. When AA moved to CDG in 1999, it operated from Terminal 2 (Aerogare 2A) where it is still based. TWA used Terminal 1.

Thanks a lot - that was quite insightful!
 
onwFan
Posts: 526
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:58 pm

sagechan wrote:
BarrenLucidity wrote:
usairways85 wrote:
AA's future in JFK can go multiple ways. The AA/B6 partnership could be a short(er) term thing to help both airlines get through Covid-19 or it can turn out to be a longer term relationship post Covid-19. It puts AA in a better position at JFK, but there will still be immense competition on TA routes and DL is not going to simply roll over, especially after AA's planned build up at SEA. I see some more route rationalization across PHL and JFK, but I don't see JFK gaining 5-10 more routes all at the expense of PHL. I also question CLT's TA future, 772 is a huge aircraft to fill full of connecting passengers that can be routed through ORD or PHL...or DFW. I feel like the CLT 772 base was a product of simply not enough 787s in the fleet yet and PHL being a priority given the larger number of destinations.



CLT had no issues filling the 333 or 332 on its TA routes and CLT enplanement costs are the lowest of all the major hubs and CLT tickets are some of the most expensive in the country for O&D. The issue at CLT is gate constraints for wide bodies and the FIS zone. It's getting more widebody gates and revamping the FIS zone. There is no reason to sacrifice CLT TA only to incur higher costs. If I was PHL though I would be nervous. More expensive than DCA, not as connected as JFK. Once the DCA, JFK, and CLT terminal revamps are done there isn't going to be a great story to keep PHL as a primary TA hub. I'd reduce costs by swapping lower volume to DCA/CLT and increase presence in JFK for OneWorld terminal connections / capture O&D.

The issue with AA and JFK vs PHL is that it's impossible for JFK to match PHL in domestic connectivity on AA revenue generating flights. AA never had enough JFK slots to make it a true connecting hub, and it has too many for a strategic high value O&D center. PHL has neither of those but is both a smaller market than NYC it also faces leakage to both NYC & greater DC airports.

The JetBlue partnership is more about bringing their FFs to AA metal flying out of JFK instead in competitors. There will be some connections, but that's a secondary effect. So this hookup does make more NY O&D focused international long haul more viable, but it should have limited effect of PHL since there isn't a ton of NY-PHL-TATL travel as NYers will just fly direct or connect in Europe. So I don't think PHL has much to be nervous about from NY gains.

I think you hit the right point. With PHL, AA was not getting the TATL traffic from NY or BOS. The B6 partnership is supposed to be for that. I don’t see AA being interested in serving secondary destinations in Europe from JFK. They are mainly going for huge O&D destinations like TLV & ATH. And for that, AA & B6 must have realized that combining the FF pools is the perfect recipe. As you said, it is clearly about them trying to poach NY/BOS traffic from competitors. No one in NY is going to connect anywhere in the US on their flights to Europe. If you want those customers, you need to have a flight.

On the same note, neither does DL have (or will, as it appears) the breadth of network at JFK or BOS to sustain multiple secondary European destinations.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 3891
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:28 pm

sagechan wrote:
BarrenLucidity wrote:
usairways85 wrote:
AA's future in JFK can go multiple ways. The AA/B6 partnership could be a short(er) term thing to help both airlines get through Covid-19 or it can turn out to be a longer term relationship post Covid-19. It puts AA in a better position at JFK, but there will still be immense competition on TA routes and DL is not going to simply roll over, especially after AA's planned build up at SEA. I see some more route rationalization across PHL and JFK, but I don't see JFK gaining 5-10 more routes all at the expense of PHL. I also question CLT's TA future, 772 is a huge aircraft to fill full of connecting passengers that can be routed through ORD or PHL...or DFW. I feel like the CLT 772 base was a product of simply not enough 787s in the fleet yet and PHL being a priority given the larger number of destinations.



CLT had no issues filling the 333 or 332 on its TA routes and CLT enplanement costs are the lowest of all the major hubs and CLT tickets are some of the most expensive in the country for O&D. The issue at CLT is gate constraints for wide bodies and the FIS zone. It's getting more widebody gates and revamping the FIS zone. There is no reason to sacrifice CLT TA only to incur higher costs. If I was PHL though I would be nervous. More expensive than DCA, not as connected as JFK. Once the DCA, JFK, and CLT terminal revamps are done there isn't going to be a great story to keep PHL as a primary TA hub. I'd reduce costs by swapping lower volume to DCA/CLT and increase presence in JFK for OneWorld terminal connections / capture O&D.

The issue with AA and JFK vs PHL is that it's impossible for JFK to match PHL in domestic connectivity on AA revenue generating flights. AA never had enough JFK slots to make it a true connecting hub, and it has too many for a strategic high value O&D center. PHL has neither of those but is both a smaller market than NYC it also faces leakage to both NYC & greater DC airports.

The JetBlue partnership is more about bringing their FFs to AA metal flying out of JFK instead in competitors. There will be some connections, but that's a secondary effect. So this hookup does make more NY O&D focused international long haul more viable, but it should have limited effect of PHL since there isn't a ton of NY-PHL-TATL travel as NYers will just fly direct or connect in Europe. So I don't think PHL has much to be nervous about from NY gains.

CLT will be fine and post pandemic it's TATL summer supplemental flying will return. I wouldn't be surprised to see more 787s instead of 777s there eventually though. In the end CLT is cheap and high volume and very well connected.


This is such a great summary!
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8995
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Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:31 pm

onwFan wrote:
Yes, I think the reason DL does better to Germany is historical - they inherited the Frankfurt hub from Pan Am and got some point of sale advantage.


Come on... Lasting advantage from the on-death's-doorstep Pan Am ops in Frankfurt acquired twenty-eight years ago?! It was wound down in six years - worthless.

Delta earned its successes in Germany with FRA/MUC/STR-ATL and the very significant German auto and truck and supplier firms in the southeast U.S. DTW ops support North American headquarters of some of the world's largest (German) auto suppliers, but who also have LH out of DTW.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 3891
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:31 pm

aviator2000 wrote:
AA flew daily from BCN to JFK, MIA, PHL, CLT and ORD during the summer season before covid. ATM CLT has already been announced as permanently dropped, so, what are the chances of any of the aforementioned coming back in 2021?


BCN is a strong O&D market, and seasonally (pre-pandemic) gets even larger with all the cruise traffic that begins and ends there. The ORD, CLT, and I think PHL routes were seasonal, while JFK and MIA operated year-round. I think ALL of these routes have a strong chance of coming back once the pandemic is over / under control and cruise traffic resumes.

Similarly, BUD and PRG will come back once Avalon, Viking, and other river cruise lines resume operations. Same goes for VCE, which is a cruise hub.
 
onwFan
Posts: 526
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:02 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Tue Jan 05, 2021 12:19 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
onwFan wrote:
Yes, I think the reason DL does better to Germany is historical - they inherited the Frankfurt hub from Pan Am and got some point of sale advantage.


Come on... Lasting advantage from the on-death's-doorstep Pan Am ops in Frankfurt acquired twenty-eight years ago?! It was wound down in six years - worthless.

Delta earned its successes in Germany with FRA/MUC/STR-ATL and the very significant German auto and truck and supplier firms in the southeast U.S. DTW ops support North American headquarters of some of the world's largest (German) auto suppliers, but who also have LH out of DTW.

I note that you have conveniently ignored/deleted the sentence next to it to respond. But either way, if you insist that Pan am’s operation (especially the recognition with the intra-Germany operations) didn’t help DL a bit, okay.
 
AA767400
Posts: 1897
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2001 2:04 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Tue Jan 05, 2021 4:30 am

IAHObserver wrote:
OKCDCA wrote:
jeffh747 wrote:
Completely disregarding your ignorant last sentence about FAs "not doing their jobs" because they aren't serving beverages, the rest of your post matches my observations exactly. Nothing but full loads on the flights I've been on, and a huge lack of care for social distancing. As soon as the preboarding call is made, nearly every single passenger crowds up to boards, and everyone is on top of each other in the jetway.

Personally I'm not sure whether blocking a middle seat is effective or not, given how already densely packed the planes are, and the fact nobody cares to social distance anyways. If members of the traveling public really want to social distance, traveling by plane is probably not the best way to do that.

Maybe I run a tight ship at my company, but I wouldn't say expecting an employee to do a part of their job that is part of the service the company is supposed to provide is ignorant... And yes, I understand the first part of a FA's duties are safety. Sitting in the back and reading a book or playing on a cell phone the whole flight is not part of the FA job description last I checked. Perhaps it's the attitude I've gotten from a couple of FA's when asking for a glass of water that's turned me off. Getting a noticeable eye roll as they put down the book/cell phone to get up is not flattering

.
I agree, AA's service level is abysmal right now and another reason I'm moving over to UA where my last flew flights have been very nice even with their bagged snack service.


There's no difference. UA/DL/AA all currently have no beverage service in Y. AA is not the odd ball doing this. It's a pandemic, and limiting exposure is the norm right now. It's unfortune that people call FAs lazy, and not doing their job, because you can't receive that can of soda for a couple of hours. Bring a bottle, and fill it with water at the terminal. It's transportation, not a 7/11.
"The low fares airline."
 
CALMSP
Posts: 3515
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:18 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Tue Jan 05, 2021 4:38 am

AA767400 wrote:
IAHObserver wrote:
OKCDCA wrote:
Maybe I run a tight ship at my company, but I wouldn't say expecting an employee to do a part of their job that is part of the service the company is supposed to provide is ignorant... And yes, I understand the first part of a FA's duties are safety. Sitting in the back and reading a book or playing on a cell phone the whole flight is not part of the FA job description last I checked. Perhaps it's the attitude I've gotten from a couple of FA's when asking for a glass of water that's turned me off. Getting a noticeable eye roll as they put down the book/cell phone to get up is not flattering

.
I agree, AA's service level is abysmal right now and another reason I'm moving over to UA where my last flew flights have been very nice even with their bagged snack service.


There's no difference. UA/DL/AA all currently have no beverage service in Y. AA is not the odd ball doing this. It's a pandemic, and limiting exposure is the norm right now. It's unfortune that people call FAs lazy, and not doing their job, because you can't receive that can of soda for a couple of hours. Bring a bottle, and fill it with water at the terminal. It's transportation, not a 7/11.


I was on UA last week and we had a beverage service (no alcohol).
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26468
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Tue Jan 05, 2021 4:39 am

aviator2000 wrote:
AA flew daily from BCN to JFK, MIA, PHL, CLT and ORD during the summer season before covid. ATM CLT has already been announced as permanently dropped, so, what are the chances of any of the aforementioned coming back in 2021?


Miami comes back first, March 27th.

It's a large market but honestly I would not be surprised if it's served just from Miami for the time being. Charlotte is officially canned for good.
a.
 
AA767400
Posts: 1897
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2001 2:04 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Tue Jan 05, 2021 4:54 am

CALMSP wrote:
AA767400 wrote:
IAHObserver wrote:
I agree, AA's service level is abysmal right now and another reason I'm moving over to UA where my last flew flights have been very nice even with their bagged snack service.


There's no difference. UA/DL/AA all currently have no beverage service in Y. AA is not the odd ball doing this. It's a pandemic, and limiting exposure is the norm right now. It's unfortune that people call FAs lazy, and not doing their job, because you can't receive that can of soda for a couple of hours. Bring a bottle, and fill it with water at the terminal. It's transportation, not a 7/11.


I was on UA last week and we had a beverage service (no alcohol).


That's great! Did you get your Diet Coke with a lime on the side? So break down which airlines do, and which airlines don't. I know WN also currently isn't doing a beverage service. Ironically, they haven't received the backlash that AA has from it.
"The low fares airline."
 
CALMSP
Posts: 3515
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:18 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Tue Jan 05, 2021 4:57 am

AA767400 wrote:
CALMSP wrote:
AA767400 wrote:

There's no difference. UA/DL/AA all currently have no beverage service in Y. AA is not the odd ball doing this. It's a pandemic, and limiting exposure is the norm right now. It's unfortune that people call FAs lazy, and not doing their job, because you can't receive that can of soda for a couple of hours. Bring a bottle, and fill it with water at the terminal. It's transportation, not a 7/11.


I was on UA last week and we had a beverage service (no alcohol).


That's great! Did you get your Diet Coke with a lime on the side? So break down which airlines do, and which airlines don't. I know WN also currently isn't doing a beverage service. Ironically, they haven't received the backlash that AA has from it.


Coke. And WN last week gave us the pretzels and water.

AA is coming up next week for me.
 
Detroit313
Posts: 581
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:56 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Tue Jan 05, 2021 5:10 am

Nobody does a beverage service on domestic flights of less than 1500 miles. They give you a little bag with a water, a wipe and a snack.
 
CALMSP
Posts: 3515
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:18 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Tue Jan 05, 2021 5:44 am

Detroit313 wrote:
Nobody does a beverage service on domestic flights of less than 1500 miles. They give you a little bag with a water, a wipe and a snack.


Well, it was 862 miles DEN-IAH last week for me and UA was handing out juice cans, coke, etc.
 
SESGDL
Posts: 2920
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:25 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Tue Jan 05, 2021 12:43 pm

Detroit313 wrote:
Nobody does a beverage service on domestic flights of less than 1500 miles. They give you a little bag with a water, a wipe and a snack.


Wrong again. Both DL and UA are offering beverage service and it’s on routes less than 1,500 miles. Where is that documented?

Jeremy
 
Miamiairport
Posts: 828
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:14 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Tue Jan 05, 2021 2:57 pm

AA does not do a beverage service in Coach unless it's greater than 2.2K miles. If it's 900-2.2K miles it's the little baggie. Under 900 miles nothing. You can ask and you may or may not receive a beverage. For the most part you get a beverage service in F unless it's a very short flight (less than 300 miles). Then it's hit or miss. There are sandwiches or fruit plate on flights from 900 to 2.2K miles in F and the relatively small number of domestic flights over 2.2k miles there's a single tray meal service. Some longer domestic flights also have a self serve snack basket in F. However, there appears to be no food in F on AE flights, even over 900 miles. Some flights seem to have the little cookies. Pre departures beverages in F are about as common now as getting a LGA/ORD Monday upgrade as a PLT pre-COVID.

On a relatively few number of flights FAs will refuse to do any kind of service. On a IAH/MIA flight last month (admittedly this was Republic and not actually AA) the F FA made a "stern" announcement that he would not be doing a beverage service in either cabin. Thus dude also had on these thick black gloves one would see someone handling nuclear waste. Too bad he wasn't laid off if he's that sacred.

COVID 19 is not transmitted by food or beverage. There was a rumor going around that AA had plan to restore a beverage service in Y but the union objected. It's a case of lazy flight attendants. Some of which would be more than happy to hand you and take back a credit card application. I guess it must be made from COVID resistant paper.
 
ABEguy
Posts: 130
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:02 pm

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Tue Jan 05, 2021 3:15 pm

SESGDL wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
Nobody does a beverage service on domestic flights of less than 1500 miles. They give you a little bag with a water, a wipe and a snack.


Wrong again. Both DL and UA are offering beverage service and it’s on routes less than 1,500 miles. Where is that documented?

Jeremy


You don’t know what you’re talking about. Straight from Delta’s website:

Food and Beverage Offerings
We’re paring down our onboard food and beverage options in an effort to reduce physical touch points between customers and employees.

As always, you are welcome to bring your own food and non-alcoholic beverages on board to enjoy during flight. Since many airport offerings are limited at this time, we recommend packing your own refreshments and encourage you to review TSA guidelines, before bringing food through security checkpoints.

U.S. Domestic and International flights to Mexico, Canada, the Caribbean and Central America
FLIGHTS LONGER THAN 350 MILES:

All passengers will be able to enjoy a snack selection.
Beverages will be limited to individual 8.5 oz bottled water only in all cabins.
On flights over 500 miles, Delta Comfort+ and First Class customers will receive complimentary beer and wine service.
No alcohol, plastic cups or ice will be available in the Main Cabin at this time.
Meal preselect and special meal service is temporarily suspended.
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 3988
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Tue Jan 05, 2021 3:16 pm

SESGDL wrote:
Detroit313 wrote:
Nobody does a beverage service on domestic flights of less than 1500 miles. They give you a little bag with a water, a wipe and a snack.


Wrong again. Both DL and UA are offering beverage service and it’s on routes less than 1,500 miles. Where is that documented?

Jeremy


That is not true. DL offers no service in coach except for the longer Hawaii routes. You get a bag with a bottle of water, a wipe and a snack. DL is not even catering the planes with soft drinks, ice or plastic cups.
 
USAirALB
Posts: 2451
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 4:46 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Tue Jan 05, 2021 5:51 pm

Miamiairport wrote:
AA does not do a beverage service in Coach unless it's greater than 2.2K miles. If it's 900-2.2K miles it's the little baggie. Under 900 miles nothing. You can ask and you may or may not receive a beverage. For the most part you get a beverage service in F unless it's a very short flight (less than 300 miles). Then it's hit or miss. There are sandwiches or fruit plate on flights from 900 to 2.2K miles in F and the relatively small number of domestic flights over 2.2k miles there's a single tray meal service. Some longer domestic flights also have a self serve snack basket in F. However, there appears to be no food in F on AE flights, even over 900 miles. Some flights seem to have the little cookies. Pre departures beverages in F are about as common now as getting a LGA/ORD Monday upgrade as a PLT pre-COVID.

On a relatively few number of flights FAs will refuse to do any kind of service. On a IAH/MIA flight last month (admittedly this was Republic and not actually AA) the F FA made a "stern" announcement that he would not be doing a beverage service in either cabin. Thus dude also had on these thick black gloves one would see someone handling nuclear waste. Too bad he wasn't laid off if he's that sacred.

COVID 19 is not transmitted by food or beverage. There was a rumor going around that AA had plan to restore a beverage service in Y but the union objected. It's a case of lazy flight attendants. Some of which would be more than happy to hand you and take back a credit card application. I guess it must be made from COVID resistant paper.

The tray meal service on flights over 2.2k miles has been discontinued. Those flights longer than that length that are presently operating (DCA-LAX, PHL-SAN/LAX/SFO, MIA-SFO/SEA, BOS-PHX, CLT-SFO/SMF/PDX/SEA) and haven't been suspended due to COVID are receiving the same fresh snack (sandwiches/fruit plate/yogurt plate) and then a snack basket pass prior to arrival.

It's frankly become quite despicable. The other day on my UA flight from Dulles to Charlotte, they did a full beverage service in Y with a cart, including hot beverages. It's become quite amusing to hear AA crews say they don't have beverages loaded in the galleys when you can clearly hear the full carts shaking away during take off.

To be fair, some crews have been lovely. I have had great experiences on PSA in F, with PDBs, everyone greeted by name/status. Some mainline crews are also doing PDBs/full service in F, even on short flights like my AUS-DFW trip last month. One DCA-based FA I've come to know over the past year (flown with her three times, DCA-PHL, DFW-DCA, DCA-LAX) topped up everyone's drinks without asking, even on DCA-PHL. I wrote a letter to AA about her, although sadly I've heard she has been furloughed.

I've only been straight up declined a drink a few times in Y. The worst was on PHX-DCA this past summer where I asked for a Diet Coke and I was rudely told by the lead FA "we don't have any, and you were given a water bottle when you boarded", despite that F was getting drinks and I saw a different FA pour herself an OJ from the rear galley supply. They had no issue doing the credit-card pass, however. When I disembarked (I didn't want to be kicked off or anything) I confronted him, and asked if the flight had been miscatered and told him what the policy was on flights of that length, and he simply told me to have a good night.
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AA767400
Posts: 1897
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2001 2:04 am

Re: American Airlines Network Thread - 2021

Tue Jan 05, 2021 5:59 pm

Miamiairport wrote:
AA does not do a beverage service in Coach unless it's greater than 2.2K miles. If it's 900-2.2K miles it's the little baggie. Under 900 miles nothing. You can ask and you may or may not receive a beverage. For the most part you get a beverage service in F unless it's a very short flight (less than 300 miles). Then it's hit or miss. There are sandwiches or fruit plate on flights from 900 to 2.2K miles in F and the relatively small number of domestic flights over 2.2k miles there's a single tray meal service. Some longer domestic flights also have a self serve snack basket in F. However, there appears to be no food in F on AE flights, even over 900 miles. Some flights seem to have the little cookies. Pre departures beverages in F are about as common now as getting a LGA/ORD Monday upgrade as a PLT pre-COVID.

On a relatively few number of flights FAs will refuse to do any kind of service. On a IAH/MIA flight last month (admittedly this was Republic and not actually AA) the F FA made a "stern" announcement that he would not be doing a beverage service in either cabin. Thus dude also had on these thick black gloves one would see someone handling nuclear waste. Too bad he wasn't laid off if he's that sacred.

COVID 19 is not transmitted by food or beverage. There was a rumor going around that AA had plan to restore a beverage service in Y but the union objected. It's a case of lazy flight attendants. Some of which would be more than happy to hand you and take back a credit card application. I guess it must be made from COVID resistant paper.


Has nothing to do with their union. AA in their "Cost cutting" does not cater Y with stocked carts. There's only a limited amount of cans available upon request. Passengers receive a bag with water, cookies, and wipes. Longer flights receive a normal beverage service. But of course people will see FAs doing nothing, and quickly claim laziness. How can they do a beverage service when there's no supplies, and your employer discontinued the service, and its no longer procedure? Guess it pains people to not receive more than their $39.99 bought them. :sarcastic:
"The low fares airline."
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