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qf789
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Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:51 pm

Welcome to Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2021. Please continue to add your comments below

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avtcle
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Jan 01, 2021 4:08 pm

Cheers to the new year!

My hopes for CLE in 2021: Nothing ambitious. The focus should be on RECOVERY. We’ve lost some routes — I hope we try to get some of those back (F9 to PUJ, SAN, FLL, MSP, AUS; WN to MKE; DL to BDL, RDU).

Spirit has been rather bullish in Cleveland despite the situation. CLE-EWR performed well for them. Maybe they dip into another United hub market from CLE (IAD, ORD, IAH)?

I think we’ll see a continued focus on leisure flights. Looks like UA will be flying their Florida and CUN service year-round. I’m hoping a flight to SJU is in the works. Lots of passengers on this route and no direct service.

5-6 million PAX for the year
 
masseybrown
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Jan 01, 2021 4:57 pm

Fearless 2021 prediction: If the recommended master plan is for a major terminal remake, it will be because some airline has committed to a big service enhancement (50+ flight focus city, at least). If the new master plan just papers over some of today's flaws, expect no change from the airlines.
 
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CLEguy
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Jan 01, 2021 7:01 pm

masseybrown wrote:
Fearless 2021 prediction: If the recommended master plan is for a major terminal remake, it will be because some airline has committed to a big service enhancement (50+ flight focus city, at least). If the new master plan just papers over some of today's flaws, expect no change from the airlines.


Interesting take on the master planning process. There should be another workshop in "early 2021" (date not announced yet).

I wonder how far along the analysis of alternative terminal developments will be by then. I can't imaging any airline has been in any position to commit to a large service enhancement by 1Q 2021. It might be the case, "if you build it (or at least plan for it), they will come." We shall see. Happy New Year everyone!
 
jplatts
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 12:35 am

avtcle wrote:
My hopes for CLE in 2021: Nothing ambitious. The focus should be on RECOVERY. We’ve lost some routes — I hope we try to get some of those back (F9 to PUJ, SAN, FLL, MSP, AUS; WN to MKE; DL to BDL, RDU).


WN adding CLE-AUS nonstop service might be a possibility once demand recovers with the PDEW of AUS-CLE being around 94 passengers/day in 2019. NK adding CLE-AUS nonstop service might also be a possibility with NK having nonstop service out of AUS to 13 destinations.

I probably do not expect DL to re-add CLE-BDL nonstop service, but BDL still has 1-stop connecting service from CLE through BWI on WN, PHL on AA, and IAD on UA.

MSP still has 1-stop connecting options from CLE through Chicago on AA, UA, and WN in addition to DL CLE-MSP nonstop service.

There are still plenty of 1-stop connecting options to SAN from CLE on AA, UA, DL, and WN.

MKE still has some 1-stop connecting options from CLE through DTW on DL and through ORD on AA and UA.

avtcle wrote:
Spirit has been rather bullish in Cleveland despite the situation. CLE-EWR performed well for them. Maybe they dip into another United hub market from CLE (IAD, ORD, IAH)?


NK adding seasonal CLE-IAH nonstop service might be a possibility with (a) NK already having seasonal CLE-DFW nonstop service, (b) the IAH/HOU market currently lacking nonstop ULCC service from CLE, and (c) IAH/HOU being one of the top destinations traveled to from CLE.
 
masseybrown
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 3:14 pm

CLEguy wrote:
I wonder how far along the analysis of alternative terminal developments will be by then. I can't imaging any airline has been in any position to commit to a large service enhancement by 1Q 2021. It might be the case, "if you build it (or at least plan for it), they will come." We shall see. Happy New Year everyone!


If you look at the partnership plans of American, JetBlue, and Alaska, it's easy to imagine a combined 50+ departures daily. Pre-Covid, AA and B6 combined were about 41 dailies in CLE. Just restoring some of the bigger "lost" routes could get you to 60. At that number, connection possibilities start to appear further boosting traffic.

Of course, it all depends on how quickly business traffic returns. As usual, I'm probably too optimistic.
 
fun2fly
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:01 pm

First of all, Happy New Year everyone. Let's hope for a much better 2021 with respect to everyone's health, and secondarily our interest in aviation in CLE. Looking back at the years since I started this thread, we've gone through some good times (Concourse D, parking lots, CLE>LGW then LHR and CDG, RNC upgrades) and some bad ones too (Consolidated Rental cars, financial crisis, UA leaving and the big one COVID). However, the hopes and dreams of a better CLE for all of us have somewhat been wasted by our local politicians not rallying around the CLE facility for the past decades, so let's hope they make it truly great for the next 50 years. We are at a point where CLE could make a positive turn to compete with a similar sized market like IND boasting a new facility, and I'm sure we all hope they do. With that being said, here's the 2021 wild predictions (most likely never to come true):

1) CLE master plan proposes new facility and Biden infrastructure plan helps fund it so it actually gets off the ground.
2) Amazon Prime Air takes over the IX Center and makes it a mini-hub.
3) EI promises 2022 TATL service to DUB.
4) Fueled by pent up travel demand of 5MM pax in 2H 2021, CLE has 7.5mm pax in 2021 total.
5) BKL, man I sure wish I had something good to say here, but it's not going to happen. Anyone?

Cheers to 2021 everyone...let's keep the good contributions coming and stay healthy.
 
umichman
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:02 pm

avtcle wrote:
Cheers to the new year!

My hopes for CLE in 2021: Nothing ambitious. The focus should be on RECOVERY. We’ve lost some routes — I hope we try to get some of those back (F9 to PUJ, SAN, FLL, MSP, AUS; WN to MKE; DL to BDL, RDU).



CLE-BDL/RDU would seem unlikely to return in 2021 as they were cut through the end-of-schedule by DL a couple weeks ago. This does not follow the pattern of most routes which were dropped after Covid where the suspensions have only been extended a month at a time. The schedule update DL loaded a couple weeks ago largely pushed out schedule reductions through the end of March with many non-stop routes still in the schedule to return on April 1. For example, BDL-RDU is still in the schedule starting April 1, but CLE-BDL (and CVG-BDL) were completely dropped with no restart date. WN restarting CLE-MKE also seems very unlikely. Looks fairly obviously to be a business oriented flight and there is unlikely to be much of a return in business traffic in 2021.
 
tphuang
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:50 pm

masseybrown wrote:
CLEguy wrote:
I wonder how far along the analysis of alternative terminal developments will be by then. I can't imaging any airline has been in any position to commit to a large service enhancement by 1Q 2021. It might be the case, "if you build it (or at least plan for it), they will come." We shall see. Happy New Year everyone!


If you look at the partnership plans of American, JetBlue, and Alaska, it's easy to imagine a combined 50+ departures daily. Pre-Covid, AA and B6 combined were about 41 dailies in CLE. Just restoring some of the bigger "lost" routes could get you to 60. At that number, connection possibilities start to appear further boosting traffic.

Of course, it all depends on how quickly business traffic returns. As usual, I'm probably too optimistic.


I did make the prediction on JetBlue thread that they'd add CLE-JFK/LAX/RDU this year. I'm pretty sure on the JFK part, since I think AA is dropped that. The other two are more iffy. I think there is also a fair chance they'd try LGA, EWR or SJU. Also, I'm not sure that RSW is going to stick around.
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 6:15 pm

tphuang wrote:
masseybrown wrote:
CLEguy wrote:
I wonder how far along the analysis of alternative terminal developments will be by then. I can't imaging any airline has been in any position to commit to a large service enhancement by 1Q 2021. It might be the case, "if you build it (or at least plan for it), they will come." We shall see. Happy New Year everyone!


If you look at the partnership plans of American, JetBlue, and Alaska, it's easy to imagine a combined 50+ departures daily. Pre-Covid, AA and B6 combined were about 41 dailies in CLE. Just restoring some of the bigger "lost" routes could get you to 60. At that number, connection possibilities start to appear further boosting traffic.

Of course, it all depends on how quickly business traffic returns. As usual, I'm probably too optimistic.


I did make the prediction on JetBlue thread that they'd add CLE-JFK/LAX/RDU this year. I'm pretty sure on the JFK part, since I think AA is dropped that. The other two are more iffy. I think there is also a fair chance they'd try LGA, EWR or SJU. Also, I'm not sure that RSW is going to stick around.


I don't see much B6 growth in CLE to be honest. A JFK flight yes, maybe even two and if they build up RDU, sure, they could add CLE-RDU to pick up traffic DL left behind, but I don't see B6 adding LAX or EWR. What business traffic there is to be had in Cleveland, which is not small, is still very much tied to UA even without a hub there. SJU kind of makes sense, as beach and leisure markets tend to do well from CLE. EWR would add some competition to UA for sure but I think a significant portion of the CLE-EWR corridor is connecting to Europe, Israel, and Latin America. Delta might be on to something in cutting back RDU as much as it has and it might not just be to reduce costs. The market skews towards business traffic and that is a year or more away from meaningfully picking up,
 
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CLEguy
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 8:40 pm

fun2fly wrote:
First of all, Happy New Year everyone. Let's hope for a much better 2021 with respect to everyone's health, and secondarily our interest in aviation in CLE. Looking back at the years since I started this thread, we've gone through some good times (Concourse D, parking lots, CLE>LGW then LHR and CDG, RNC upgrades) and some bad ones too (Consolidated Rental cars, financial crisis, UA leaving and the big one COVID). However, the hopes and dreams of a better CLE for all of us have somewhat been wasted by our local politicians not rallying around the CLE facility for the past decades, so let's hope they make it truly great for the next 50 years. We are at a point where CLE could make a positive turn to compete with a similar sized market like IND boasting a new facility, and I'm sure we all hope they do. With that being said, here's the 2021 wild predictions (most likely never to come true):

1) CLE master plan proposes new facility and Biden infrastructure plan helps fund it so it actually gets off the ground.
2) Amazon Prime Air takes over the IX Center and makes it a mini-hub.
3) EI promises 2022 TATL service to DUB.
4) Fueled by pent up travel demand of 5MM pax in 2H 2021, CLE has 7.5mm pax in 2021 total.
5) BKL, man I sure wish I had something good to say here, but it's not going to happen. Anyone?

Cheers to 2021 everyone...let's keep the good contributions coming and stay healthy.


I admire everyone's great optimism! Here are my reactions to your "wild predictions:"

1) I can see that happening in 2022, as the plan still has to be finalized and approved by all parties. Then the fun part of finding sufficient funding begins, and an infrastructure program might just do the trick to jumpstart the process.
2) Nice wish, but with Amazon's big facility at CVG, do they need another air hub so close?
3) That would be great. It looks like EI already canned DUB-PHL and DUB-BDL for 2021. Let's hope international traffic rebounds enough to warrant a new route from CLE. I haven't been following Aer Lingus' fleet saga much this year. Are they still taking delivery of A321s, and ideal aircraft for CLE-DUB?
4) That's very hopeful, but not impossible. CLE passenger totals have fared better than many airports, both bigger and smaller, during the pandemic.
5) Agreed that no good news will be coming out of BKL any time soon. Wish we were wrong, but can't see anything happening with commercial air service there. If it continues to drain $1 million annually from the Department of Port Control, what else could be done with BKL either to make it more self-sufficient or find alternate uses that are realistic and affordable?
 
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2021

Sun Jan 03, 2021 9:58 pm

CLEguy wrote:
2) Amazon Prime Air takes over the IX Center and makes it a mini-hub.
2) Nice wish, but with Amazon's big facility at CVG, do they need another air hub so close?


CLE Guy - Repurposing the IX center should be high on the City's list. Any other options?

Massey - anything ever come of the Ford Brookpark repurpose plan? Probably should have been #6 on my list.
 
doulasc
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2021

Sun Jan 03, 2021 11:46 pm

How is Ulimate Air doing on the BKL-Cincinnati-Lunken route? Is there a market for CMH-BKL?
 
greenair727
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:40 am

doulasc wrote:
How is Ulimate Air doing on the BKL-Cincinnati-Lunken route? Is there a market for CMH-BKL?


Pre-covid, Ultimate Air was doing very well on BKL-LUK--I heard it was their most profitable route. It is currently suspended as I think are all of Ultimate's routes. Plans are for operations to restart in Spring 2021.
 
corn4ahead
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:05 pm

Ultimate has been flying in and out of CAK recently. Not sure what they are doing though.
 
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CLEguy
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:31 pm

fun2fly wrote:
CLEguy wrote:
2) Amazon Prime Air takes over the IX Center and makes it a mini-hub.
2) Nice wish, but with Amazon's big facility at CVG, do they need another air hub so close?



CLE Guy - Repurposing the IX center should be high on the City's list. Any other options?
*I sure wish I had some other viable options. Could FedEx make any use of such a facility? Is it more valuable for the space or the actual building? I'm not sure.

Massey - anything ever come of the Ford Brookpark repurpose plan? Probably should have been #6 on my list.
*Are you talking about using the old Ford plant across OH237 for airport usage? If so, that is off the table per the last Master Plan session. There is talk about other industrial uses for the land, however, I have not seen anything too recent: https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2020/05/ ... eland.html
 
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mbm3
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:37 pm

CLEguy wrote:
2) Nice wish, but with Amazon's big facility at CVG, do they need another air hub so close?


Plus, they also have overflow capabilities at ILN (Wilmington) and are using it currently while their CVG operation is being built-out.
Let Me Tell You, Landing A 772ER Is Harder Than It Looks!
 
fun2fly
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:41 pm

mbm3 wrote:
CLEguy wrote:
2) Nice wish, but with Amazon's big facility at CVG, do they need another air hub so close?


Plus, they also have overflow capabilities at ILN (Wilmington) and are using it currently while their CVG operation is being built-out.


I'm not too well versed in the cargo world, but is there someone else that could use it? CLE cargo is moving more and more, online orders up 22% in 2020 and that's one hell of a building that no one could have the $$ to build.
 
masseybrown
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:45 pm

fun2fly wrote:
CLEguy wrote:
2) Amazon Prime Air takes over the IX Center and makes it a mini-hub.
2) Nice wish, but with Amazon's big facility at CVG, do they need another air hub so close?


CLE Guy - Repurposing the IX center should be high on the City's list. Any other options?

Massey - anything ever come of the Ford Brookpark repurpose plan? Probably should have been #6 on my list.


Aside from the neotrans blog post that CLEguy cited, the only rumor I have heard was Rivian Motors (for both Brookpark and Walton Hills), which made pretty good sense given Ford's stake in Rivian; but it's been crickets for months. The mayor of Brookpark didn't sound too excited the last time the subject came up either.
 
MohawkWeekend
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Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2021

Sun Jan 10, 2021 4:51 pm

Does any on here work ATC? I was walking the pooch around 11:20 am today and there were 2 four engine jet aircraft (clearly visible contrails) flying in formation westbound. Don't think they were B-1's as there was no noise but they were pretty high. The trailing aircraft changed position from the stbd side of the lead to port. Pretty cool on one of our first cloudless days of the year.
    300 319 320 321 707 717 720 727 72S 737 73S 734 735 73G 738 739 747 757 762 ARJ B11 C212 CRJ CR2 CR7 CR9 CV5 D8S DC9 D9S D94 D95 D10 DH8 DTO EMB EM2 E135 E145 E190 FH7 F28 F100 FTRIMTR HRN L10 L15 M80 M90 SF3 SWM YS11
     
    atbPy
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    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2021

    Sun Jan 10, 2021 5:04 pm

    MohawkWeekend wrote:
    Does any on here work ATC? I was walking the pooch around 11:20 am today and there were 2 four engine jet aircraft (clearly visible contrails) flying in formation westbound. Don't think they were B-1's as there was no noise but they were pretty high. The trailing aircraft changed position from the stbd side of the lead to port. Pretty cool on one of our first cloudless days of the year.


    I looked at FlightRadar history and there were two KC-135s around that time.
     
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    xms3200
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    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2021

    Sun Jan 10, 2021 5:29 pm

    Air to Air refueling exercises on the KC-135 tankers over CLE, happens quite often.
     
    MohawkWeekend
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    Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2021

    Sun Jan 10, 2021 5:40 pm

    Thanks -
      300 319 320 321 707 717 720 727 72S 737 73S 734 735 73G 738 739 747 757 762 ARJ B11 C212 CRJ CR2 CR7 CR9 CV5 D8S DC9 D9S D94 D95 D10 DH8 DTO EMB EM2 E135 E145 E190 FH7 F28 F100 FTRIMTR HRN L10 L15 M80 M90 SF3 SWM YS11
       
      corn4ahead
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      Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2021

      Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:17 pm

      MohawkWeekend wrote:
      Does any on here work ATC? I was walking the pooch around 11:20 am today and there were 2 four engine jet aircraft (clearly visible contrails) flying in formation westbound. Don't think they were B-1's as there was no noise but they were pretty high. The trailing aircraft changed position from the stbd side of the lead to port. Pretty cool on one of our first cloudless days of the year.


      I am ATC. ZOB handles those kinds of operations pretty regularly.
       
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      CLEguy
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      Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2021

      Wed Jan 20, 2021 3:11 pm

      I haven't been to the airport in months. Has the new Ground Transportation Center (GTC) at the north end of the terminal actually opened? I thought it was supposed to be done by Thanksgiving, but haven't heard anything new lately. Nothing on the website that I could find.
       
      swacle
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      Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2021

      Wed Jan 20, 2021 4:08 pm

      CLEguy wrote:
      I haven't been to the airport in months. Has the new Ground Transportation Center (GTC) at the north end of the terminal actually opened? I thought it was supposed to be done by Thanksgiving, but haven't heard anything new lately. Nothing on the website that I could find.


      Construction is coming along pretty quickly but they didn't start work until August so its delayed.
      Aircraft Flown: SF3 DH8 DH4 328 ERJ CRJ CR7 CR9 E70 E75 D9S M80 712 72S 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 739ER 752 318 319 32
       
      masseybrown
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      Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2021

      Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:09 pm

      CLE released November and December pax and cargo data. Predictably, pax were way down. 333.5K pax in December, down 59.9% YOY; full year 4,112.5 K down 58.9% over 2019. Cargo, however, continues to shine. December was 18.6 million pounds, up 10.14% YOY; total year was 182.3 million pounds up 0.8% over 2019.

      https://www.clevelandairport.com/about-us/facts-figures
       
      greenair727
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      Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2021

      Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:04 am

      ^333.5k pax for December is still a fair amount considering it was during the rise of a new surge of the pandemic. (I know, some people don't care and it was the holidays after all...)

      The covid testing service at Hopkins is now open.
       
      LifetimeGS
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      Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2021

      Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:30 am

      Anyone know the cost of the Covid testing at CLE? Thanks
       
      greenair727
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      Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2021

      Thu Jan 21, 2021 3:52 pm

      LifetimeGS wrote:
      Anyone know the cost of the Covid testing at CLE? Thanks



      "The cost for the rapid antigen test is $95, $135 for the PCR test, or $175 for both. PCR test results arrive via email or a text message in 48 to 72 hours and rapid antigen test results take 15 minutes."

      https://www.clevelandairport.com/new-co ... ervice-cle
       
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      CLEguy
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      Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2021

      Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:56 pm

      masseybrown wrote:
      CLE released November and December pax and cargo data. Predictably, pax were way down. 333.5K pax in December, down 59.9% YOY; full year 4,112.5 K down 58.9% over 2019. Cargo, however, continues to shine. December was 18.6 million pounds, up 10.14% YOY; total year was 182.3 million pounds up 0.8% over 2019.

      https://www.clevelandairport.com/about-us/facts-figures


      Here's the article from cleveland.com: https://www.cleveland.com/business/2021 ... 7-headline

      Not sure when passenger traffic was last below 5 million. I have some incomplete historical data and 4.996 million passengers used Hopkins in 1970, 50 years ago!
       
      masseybrown
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      Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2021

      Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:39 pm

      CLEguy wrote:
      I have some incomplete historical data and 4.996 million passengers used Hopkins in 1970, 50 years ago!


      Does your data cover cargo? I was wondering whether the 2020 182 million pounds was a record.
       
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      CLEguy
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      Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2021

      Fri Jan 22, 2021 8:31 pm

      masseybrown wrote:
      CLEguy wrote:
      I have some incomplete historical data and 4.996 million passengers used Hopkins in 1970, 50 years ago!


      Does your data cover cargo? I was wondering whether the 2020 182 million pounds was a record.


      Unfortunately, it does not. It's just never been a focus of my research. But oddly enough, you're the second person to ask me about CLE's historical cargo ops. I might have to start looking into it more.
       
      masseybrown
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      Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2021

      Sat Jan 23, 2021 7:30 pm

      Envoy (AA regional) is hiring rampers at CLE. Is this a cold-weather phenom? (All the summer guys quit when it got cold?) Or does AA have something in mind.

      https://twitter.com/envoyaircareers/sta ... 8341393408
       
      izbtmnhd
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      Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2021

      Sat Jan 23, 2021 8:08 pm

      [code][/code]
      masseybrown wrote:
      Envoy (AA regional) is hiring rampers at CLE. Is this a cold-weather phenom? (All the summer guys quit when it got cold?) Or does AA have something in mind.

      https://twitter.com/envoyaircareers/sta ... 8341393408


      I’d attribute it to turnover. Even beyond the normal seasonal ups and downs some airlines/handlers can’t offer full time at certain locations because of decreased flight activity and are reducing hours to existing staff pushing them to look elsewhere for work. So folks looking for part time are replacing those full timers in certain instances.
       
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      CLEguy
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      Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2021

      Sun Jan 24, 2021 6:08 pm

      CLEguy wrote:
      masseybrown wrote:
      CLEguy wrote:
      I have some incomplete historical data and 4.996 million passengers used Hopkins in 1970, 50 years ago!


      Does your data cover cargo? I was wondering whether the 2020 182 million pounds was a record.


      Unfortunately, it does not. It's just never been a focus of my research. But oddly enough, you're the second person to ask me about CLE's historical cargo ops. I might have to start looking into it more.


      I did look into it, but the only source of historical data that was readily available was from the FAA website: https://www.faa.gov/airports/planning_c ... passenger/

      It measures something called Landed Weight (lbs) and I was able to get the data from 1999-2019.

      I looked at CLE's website and they posted 2020's data but it does not make mention of "Landed Weight" https://www.clevelandairport.com/about-us/facts-figures.

      For example, the FAA reports 434,576,908 lbs in 2019. But CLE reports 182,293,624 lbs in 2020, representing an 0.82% increase year-over-year. Obviously those are 2 different measures. Does anyone have any idea what the differences are?

      At any rate, the highest years were from the peak of the CO hub at CLE, 1999-2002. 2009's total ranked it 7th, and with that 0.82% increase, 2020 looks like it would rank around 5th during that 21 year stretch. I haven't found any data prior to 1999.
       
      masseybrown
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      Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2021

      Sun Jan 24, 2021 6:42 pm

      CLEguy wrote:
      CLEguy wrote:
      masseybrown wrote:

      Does your data cover cargo? I was wondering whether the 2020 182 million pounds was a record.


      Unfortunately, it does not. It's just never been a focus of my research. But oddly enough, you're the second person to ask me about CLE's historical cargo ops. I might have to start looking into it more.


      I did look into it, but the only source of historical data that was readily available was from the FAA website: https://www.faa.gov/airports/planning_c ... passenger/

      It measures something called Landed Weight (lbs) and I was able to get the data from 1999-2019.


      I believe 'landed weight' is the total aircraft weight on which CLE landing fees are based - nothing to do with cargo. Thanks for doing the research.
       
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      CLEguy
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      Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2021

      Sun Jan 24, 2021 8:29 pm

      masseybrown wrote:
      CLEguy wrote:
      CLEguy wrote:

      Unfortunately, it does not. It's just never been a focus of my research. But oddly enough, you're the second person to ask me about CLE's historical cargo ops. I might have to start looking into it more.


      I did look into it, but the only source of historical data that was readily available was from the FAA website: https://www.faa.gov/airports/planning_c ... passenger/

      It measures something called Landed Weight (lbs) and I was able to get the data from 1999-2019.


      I believe 'landed weight' is the total aircraft weight on which CLE landing fees are based - nothing to do with cargo. Thanks for doing the research.


      Then would this be the weight of "all-cargo" aircraft (FedEx and UPS, for example) only? I wonder why the FAA would single this measure out? I'm still confused.
       
      greenair727
      Posts: 1558
      Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:27 am

      Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2021

      Mon Jan 25, 2021 3:23 am

      A piper flying Lorain County to BKL suffered engine failure, but luckily there were no injuries, fatalities, or equipment damage as the plane safely landed in a cornfield in Avon.

      https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/local ... o-injuries
       
      Nicknuzzii
      Posts: 1950
      Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:57 pm

      Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2021

      Mon Jan 25, 2021 4:24 am

      SY might be gone
       
      avtcle
      Posts: 407
      Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:21 am

      Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2021

      Mon Jan 25, 2021 5:02 am

      The flights never even flew. They just kept pushing the date back further and further and then just removed Cleveland from their booking engine completely. I think it’s safe to say they’ve dumped us for Cincinnati.
       
      masseybrown
      Posts: 5648
      Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

      Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2021

      Mon Jan 25, 2021 7:58 am

      CLEguy wrote:
      masseybrown wrote:
      CLEguy wrote:

      I did look into it, but the only source of historical data that was readily available was from the FAA website: https://www.faa.gov/airports/planning_c ... passenger/

      It measures something called Landed Weight (lbs) and I was able to get the data from 1999-2019.


      I believe 'landed weight' is the total aircraft weight on which CLE landing fees are based - nothing to do with cargo. Thanks for doing the research.


      Then would this be the weight of "all-cargo" aircraft (FedEx and UPS, for example) only? I wonder why the FAA would single this measure out? I'm still confused.


      Near as I can tell from looking at CLE's 2019 CATS 127 report, the total landed weight (aircraft and payload) was 5.9 million "units" of 1K lbs. 5.9 million times CLE's landing fee of $6.05 approximately equals the ~$36+ million of pax, cargo, GA, and military landing fees collected. I say approximately because the pax fees also include some parking and other fees.

      https://cats.airports.faa.gov/reports/rpt127.cfm
       
      plinth857
      Posts: 168
      Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2016 6:37 pm

      Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2021

      Mon Jan 25, 2021 2:12 pm

      avtcle wrote:
      The flights never even flew. They just kept pushing the date back further and further and then just removed Cleveland from their booking engine completely. I think it’s safe to say they’ve dumped us for Cincinnati.


      I don't think they would have had much success here anyway. I'll be surprised if they get good numbers out of CVG.
       
      chrisjake
      Posts: 1033
      Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 11:19 am

      Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2021

      Mon Jan 25, 2021 7:44 pm

      plinth857 wrote:
      avtcle wrote:
      The flights never even flew. They just kept pushing the date back further and further and then just removed Cleveland from their booking engine completely. I think it’s safe to say they’ve dumped us for Cincinnati.


      I don't think they would have had much success here anyway. I'll be surprised if they get good numbers out of CVG.


      I think the CVG flight might be more for moving Amazon crew around now that SY is flying 738s for them, then fill the rest of the plane with paying pax.
       
      User avatar
      CLEguy
      Posts: 442
      Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2016 10:49 pm

      Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2021

      Tue Jan 26, 2021 2:21 pm

      chrisjake wrote:
      plinth857 wrote:
      avtcle wrote:
      The flights never even flew. They just kept pushing the date back further and further and then just removed Cleveland from their booking engine completely. I think it’s safe to say they’ve dumped us for Cincinnati.


      I don't think they would have had much success here anyway. I'll be surprised if they get good numbers out of CVG.


      I think the CVG flight might be more for moving Amazon crew around now that SY is flying 738s for them, then fill the rest of the plane with paying pax.


      I thought the flight was partly to satisfy demand for staff from Valspar/Sherwin-Williams traveling between MSP & CLE. Maybe with the new S-W HQ plans moving forward, plus the pandemic, the demand has decreased to make SY's entry into the market unnecessary?
       
      plinth857
      Posts: 168
      Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2016 6:37 pm

      Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2021

      Fri Jan 29, 2021 7:39 pm

      https://clevelandairportmasterplan.com/ ... -mtg-3.pdf

      The "preferred" plan for the master plan was identified at the last meeting, and it does make use of some of the original structure... this one seems to be have the best plan that allows operations to continue the most during construction. It would be interesting to see Concourse D back in use, albeit temporarily.
       
      corn4ahead
      Posts: 82
      Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 2:29 am

      Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2021

      Fri Jan 29, 2021 9:09 pm

      Although I would've preferred family 6, I think that family 2 was the best of both worlds. I am just glad that they didn't go with family 1 as the preferred solution. That being said, the graphics on the slideshow are rather hard to interpret.
       
      plinth857
      Posts: 168
      Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2016 6:37 pm

      Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2021

      Fri Jan 29, 2021 10:05 pm

      corn4ahead wrote:
      Although I would've preferred family 6, I think that family 2 was the best of both worlds. I am just glad that they didn't go with family 1 as the preferred solution. That being said, the graphics on the slideshow are rather hard to interpret.


      I feel like this would been a case of "being there" would have helped interpret the slides better. Either way, it's nice to have something resembling a decision!
       
      User avatar
      CLEguy
      Posts: 442
      Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2016 10:49 pm

      Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2021

      Sat Jan 30, 2021 12:02 am

      plinth857 wrote:
      https://clevelandairportmasterplan.com/documents/2021-01-12-cle-master-plan-working-committee-mtg-3.pdf

      The "preferred" plan for the master plan was identified at the last meeting, and it does make use of some of the original structure... this one seems to be have the best plan that allows operations to continue the most during construction. It would be interesting to see Concourse D back in use, albeit temporarily.


      Wow! I totally missed this. Was there another public meeting? Thanks for sharing!
       
      N766UA
      Posts: 8400
      Joined: Thu Jul 29, 1999 3:50 am

      Re: Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2021

      Sat Jan 30, 2021 12:29 am

      chrisjake wrote:
      plinth857 wrote:
      avtcle wrote:
      The flights never even flew. They just kept pushing the date back further and further and then just removed Cleveland from their booking engine completely. I think it’s safe to say they’ve dumped us for Cincinnati.


      I don't think they would have had much success here anyway. I'll be surprised if they get good numbers out of CVG.


      I think the CVG flight might be more for moving Amazon crew around now that SY is flying 738s for them, then fill the rest of the plane with paying pax.


      You think it makes more sense to pull an entire 737 off a better route and potentially fly it with loss-making loads than it does to just buy a couple tickets and airline the crew on Delta? Um, what?
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