Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2021

flyPIT · Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:50 pm

luckyone wrote:
Fantastic and sorely needed. They obviously aren't concerned about it cannibalizing their CMH route but I wonder if this will impact their PIT route. There's a lot of folks in the NE Ohio are that will use PIT as it's a relatively short drive.

No doubt people drove between the two to catch flights pre-COVID, most notably Clevelanders to PIT to catch a nonstop to Europe (especially when WW was in PIT and before they started CLE), and Pittsburghers drive to CLE is the fare is right such as on F9. But as far as AS, they know where their customers live. I doubt they would be adding a second daily nonstop at PIT at the same time they are adding CLE if they were overly concerned about it.

greenair727 · Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:46 pm

Pretty bullish/optimistic move by AS to simultaneously add CLE and double PIT, CMH, and CVG! If they were really bold, they would just start CLE at 2x/daily, or maybe start CLE at 2x and keep CMH at 1x daily.

Delta28L · Fri Oct 29, 2021 2:10 am

greenair727 wrote:
Pretty bullish/optimistic move by AS to simultaneously add CLE and double PIT, CMH, and CVG! If they were really bold, they would just start CLE at 2x/daily, or maybe start CLE at 2x and keep CMH at 1x daily.

It’s been three or four years since they announced PIT getting service and now it’s just going double daily service.

pgh234 · Fri Oct 29, 2021 2:26 am

Delta28L wrote:
It’s been three or four years since they announced PIT getting service and now it’s just going double daily service.

PIT-SEA has varied in aircraft size and frequency since the start (less than daily mid winter and double daily during the summer). I expect all of these similar routes will experience the same.

umichman · Fri Oct 29, 2021 12:15 pm

pgh234 wrote:
Delta28L wrote:
It’s been three or four years since they announced PIT getting service and now it’s just going double daily service.

PIT-SEA has varied in aircraft size and frequency since the start (less than daily mid winter and double daily during the summer). I expect all of these similar routes will experience the same.

Yep. CVG-SEA and CMH-SEA are currently 5x weekly in Jan/Feb and PIT-SEA is 4x. They don't return to fully daily until mid-March.

Trk1 · Fri Oct 29, 2021 1:12 pm

Why are we wasting 1 million dollars for this service. If they can make money start their flights. If not plenty of ways to fly to Seattle from Cleveland.
This is an awful example of priorities that are all wrong in our State and country.

avtcle · Fri Oct 29, 2021 1:26 pm

The incentive from JobsOhio is absolutely worth it. It’s something between $600,000 and $1.5M. The estimated economic impact for the city for having this new service is $100M. The benefit far outweighs whatever is being paid for the incentive package that made Alaska comfortable enough to start the service.

BangersAndMash · Fri Oct 29, 2021 1:41 pm

greenair727 wrote:
Pretty bullish/optimistic move by AS to simultaneously add CLE and double PIT, CMH, and CVG! If they were really bold, they would just start CLE at 2x/daily, or maybe start CLE at 2x and keep CMH at 1x daily.

I wouldn't say optimistic. Look at the load factors on these routes. They're all in the mid-90s at the moment. I don't think AS is taking much of a risk here. And I expect CLE to get the same treatment pretty quick.

pmanni1 · Fri Oct 29, 2021 2:17 pm

Trk1 wrote:
Why are we wasting 1 million dollars for this service. If they can make money start their flights. If not plenty of ways to fly to Seattle from Cleveland.
This is an awful example of priorities that are all wrong in our State and country.

The Jobsohio incentive money is like insurance. It's only used if the flight fails to meet economic goals.

masseybrown · Fri Oct 29, 2021 2:58 pm

avtcle wrote:
The incentive from JobsOhio is absolutely worth it. It’s something between $600,000 and $1.5M. The estimated economic impact for the city for having this new service is $100M. The benefit far outweighs whatever is being paid for the incentive package that made Alaska comfortable enough to start the service.

Service-start incentives seem to be a fact of life for cities of Cleveland's size, with the expectation that the route will mature quickly and no longer need guarantees. I get that; but I would like to hear the rationale for claiming $100 million in benefits from the flight. I don't think even a TATL flight would provide that kind of payoff.

Trk1 · Fri Oct 29, 2021 3:11 pm

The rationale is non-sense-- they make up the numbers to serve any purpose to get taxpayers money. Why not just pass out the money at the front entrance door to the airport to passengers they will spend it and the economic multipler will be higher. The MPC for a company is much lower than for and Individual as anyone who has taken any basic economic course knows.

Midwestindy · Fri Oct 29, 2021 3:27 pm

masseybrown wrote:
avtcle wrote:
The incentive from JobsOhio is absolutely worth it. It’s something between $600,000 and $1.5M. The estimated economic impact for the city for having this new service is $100M. The benefit far outweighs whatever is being paid for the incentive package that made Alaska comfortable enough to start the service.

Service-start incentives seem to be a fact of life for cities of Cleveland's size, with the expectation that the route will mature quickly and no longer need guarantees. I get that; but I would like to hear the rationale for claiming $100 million in benefits from the flight. I don't think even a TATL flight would provide that kind of payoff.

IND estimated IND-CDG would have $50M in economic impact, so $100M for one flight to Seattle is laughable.

I don't seem to recall revenue guarantees for CVG, IND, e.t.c when AS started those though. Although, I'm in favor of them if they are the only option.

Midwestindy · Fri Oct 29, 2021 3:35 pm

Delta28L wrote:
greenair727 wrote:
Pretty bullish/optimistic move by AS to simultaneously add CLE and double PIT, CMH, and CVG! If they were really bold, they would just start CLE at 2x/daily, or maybe start CLE at 2x and keep CMH at 1x daily.

It’s been three or four years since they announced PIT getting service and now it’s just going double daily service.

PIT, IND, and CMH were already scheduled to go 2x daily in 2020 until COVID came

SANFan · Fri Oct 29, 2021 3:36 pm

This is nice news for CLE and for AS!

My constant hope is that once AS sets up shop in a new city like CLE, they might eventually add service to some of their other west coast hubs and focus cities. Most people would of course think of SFO, LAX or PDX but I particularly keep my fingers crossed for a CLE-SAN flight! (I show the DOT stats from 3Q2019 as 132 PDEW between CLE and SAN with, of course, no nonstop service in the market currently.)

IMO, AS has these multiple cities out west that can help the carrier boost service from many of cities that they serve only from SEA in order to solidify their position (and status) in those lightly-served AS cities. Of course I realize that routes like CLE-SEA have not only healthy O&D traffic but lots of connections offered over SEA as well.

In any case, I will now add CLE to the list of cities that I hope some day to see connected by AS from their growing focus city in Southern Cal!

bb

avtcle · Fri Oct 29, 2021 4:41 pm

masseybrown wrote:
avtcle wrote:
The incentive from JobsOhio is absolutely worth it. It’s something between $600,000 and $1.5M. The estimated economic impact for the city for having this new service is $100M. The benefit far outweighs whatever is being paid for the incentive package that made Alaska comfortable enough to start the service.

Service-start incentives seem to be a fact of life for cities of Cleveland's size, with the expectation that the route will mature quickly and no longer need guarantees. I get that; but I would like to hear the rationale for claiming $100 million in benefits from the flight. I don't think even a TATL flight would provide that kind of payoff.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/fox8.com/n ... rport/amp/

Article citing estimated $100M in economic benefits to the area.

ncflyer · Fri Oct 29, 2021 5:00 pm

Well let’s give Fox8 credit they don’t quote a time frame— that’s one way to be right no matter what. $100mm over 20 years ,that I can believe. One year is absurd that would be $270K per flight assuming single daily and let’s remember for new activity that’s people and cargo not from cleveland and who wouldn’t make the journey without a a nonstop flight.

Hate airline subsidies but like tax subsidies and subsidizing billionaire sports owners to build stadiums it’s a fact of life sadly.

masseybrown · Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:26 pm

avtcle wrote:
masseybrown wrote:
avtcle wrote:
The incentive from JobsOhio is absolutely worth it. It’s something between $600,000 and $1.5M. The estimated economic impact for the city for having this new service is $100M. The benefit far outweighs whatever is being paid for the incentive package that made Alaska comfortable enough to start the service.

Service-start incentives seem to be a fact of life for cities of Cleveland's size, with the expectation that the route will mature quickly and no longer need guarantees. I get that; but I would like to hear the rationale for claiming $100 million in benefits from the flight. I don't think even a TATL flight would provide that kind of payoff.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/fox8.com/n ... rport/amp/

Article citing estimated $100M in economic benefits to the area.

I wasn't doubting you - only the "airport leaders", who offered no justification for their number.

CLEguy · Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:57 pm

I think the idea of an "insurance policy" for a new route is reasonable given what other cities have done for years. And I bet AS will not even need much of it at all, given the large market between the cities, the increased travel the new nonstop route might stimulate, and Alaska's reputation for excellent customer service.

I just booked the inaugural flight to SEA next summer. Looking forward to enjoying 2 of my favorite things: Aviation (an inaugural flight, the Museum of Flight, and Boeing Future of Flight-let's hope the factory opens up for tours again) and Wine (Washington State has some great wineries).

CMHtraveler · Fri Oct 29, 2021 10:43 pm

greenair727 wrote:
Pretty bullish/optimistic move by AS to simultaneously add CLE and double PIT, CMH, and CVG! If they were really bold, they would just start CLE at 2x/daily, or maybe start CLE at 2x and keep CMH at 1x daily.

Uh… in July CMH-SEA had the highest load factor of any route in the entire AS system.

LifetimeGS · Sat Oct 30, 2021 12:53 am

I'd prefer NS CLE to PDX than a daily double to SEA.

joeman · Sat Oct 30, 2021 2:01 am

CMHtraveler wrote:
greenair727 wrote:
Pretty bullish/optimistic move by AS to simultaneously add CLE and double PIT, CMH, and CVG! If they were really bold, they would just start CLE at 2x/daily, or maybe start CLE at 2x and keep CMH at 1x daily.

Uh… in July CMH-SEA had the highest load factor of any route in the entire AS system.

The CLE geographical catchment area is not a full 360 degrees like PIT, CMH, CVG, IND, even DTW with a bridge to Windsor/Canada, it is 180". There's a big lake on the north and close by CAK to the south. The airport that is often considered another CLE option when it fits an a.netter argument. I can see that AS entered Ohio with CMH 1st, no DL like CVG, no (even limited) F9 and the never ending and trumpeted high cost CLE, so it was CMH dead center in the 7th most populated state. Good AS. CMH has become an established AS destination and is likely pulling travelers from at least Mansfield to the north of their 360" opportunity. I understand that an airline that has made remarks about increasing frequency, especially to the SEA hub, start with existing and successful destinations like CMH. Maybe a little late to the party, but I agree let the CLE market develop, with most travelers even getting to know there is an AS, not just UA ,SW, F9 or NK, practically the only ones I ever hear normal people talk about. Congrats to those earlier to the party on a 2nd frequency and thanks AS for coming in

greenair727 · Sat Oct 30, 2021 3:49 am

joeman wrote:
The CLE geographical catchment area is not a full 360 degrees like PIT, CMH, CVG, IND, even DTW with a bridge to Windsor/Canada, it is 180". There's a big lake on the north and close by CAK to the south....

Not sure of the point of this as the lake actually makes the cleveland region more dense (and more interesting). NYC has a lot of water on one side too and it doesn't make it any less of a city, rather, the opposite. Lake or not, the Cleveland market is 4-5 million people, much larger than CMH, CVG, or PIT. If CMH can support two daily flights, certainly CLE can more easily. And I am fully aware that market demand is driven by more than just population. Also, as LifetimeGS mentioned above, 1 SEA and 1 PDX daily may be preferable than 2x SEA. I could go for that as well, though in the ideal situation, we'd see CLE -SEA 2X, -PDX 1X, and -SAN 1X.

masseybrown · Sat Oct 30, 2021 5:00 pm

greenair727 wrote:
. I could go for that as well, though in the ideal situation, we'd see CLE -SEA 2X, -PDX 1X, and -SAN 1X.

I'm interested in whether AS/AA will make anything out of their codeshare possibilities over CLE. Currently the CLE-SEA flights are shown on AS's schedule, but without any codeshares, which would be possible from SEA to LGA (1 hr 45 min connection) PHL ( 1 hr 15 min) and MIA (1hr 25 min). Again, these would not be preferred routings, but they would be possible in the event of nonstop cancellations. With a bit more minor schedule tweaking, DCA and CLT could be added to the list. Then, blue-skying it, AA could add a PHX-CLE feeder. Are they interested? I don't know. They could, but haven't, done it in PIT.

joeman · Sat Oct 30, 2021 8:03 pm

greenair727 wrote:
joeman wrote:
The CLE geographical catchment area is not a full 360 degrees like PIT, CMH, CVG, IND, even DTW with a bridge to Windsor/Canada, it is 180". There's a big lake on the north and close by CAK to the south....

Not sure of the point of this as the lake actually makes the cleveland region more dense (and more interesting). NYC has a lot of water on one side too and it doesn't make it any less of a city, rather, the opposite. Lake or not, the Cleveland market is 4-5 million people, much larger than CMH, CVG, or PIT. If CMH can support two daily flights, certainly CLE can more easily. And I am fully aware that market demand is driven by more than just population. Also, as LifetimeGS mentioned above, 1 SEA and 1 PDX daily may be preferable than 2x SEA. I could go for that as well, though in the ideal situation, we'd see CLE -SEA 2X, -PDX 1X, and -SAN 1X.

Try putting it back into context as a take on the whole for why CLE wasn't chosen ahead of others much less AS starting at 2 daily unlike the others...the reference to CAK taking some traffic, DL and F9 in CLE and CVG, no one residing in the lake...

greenair727 · Sun Oct 31, 2021 6:11 pm

masseybrown wrote:
greenair727 wrote:
. I could go for that as well, though in the ideal situation, we'd see CLE -SEA 2X, -PDX 1X, and -SAN 1X.

I'm interested in whether AS/AA will make anything out of their codeshare possibilities over CLE. Currently the CLE-SEA flights are shown on AS's schedule, but without any codeshares, which would be possible from SEA to LGA (1 hr 45 min connection) PHL ( 1 hr 15 min) and MIA (1hr 25 min). Again, these would not be preferred routings, but they would be possible in the event of nonstop cancellations. With a bit more minor schedule tweaking, DCA and CLT could be added to the list. Then, blue-skying it, AA could add a PHX-CLE feeder. Are they interested? I don't know. They could, but haven't, done it in PIT.

The codeshare would certainly help. Does AS do it for their CMH and CVG routes? I remember--years ago--flying from PDX to CLE (on UA, IIRC) and chatting with people who were en route to NY, just connecting in CLE. They said, there weren't many great options to get from PDX to NY--at least at the time.

jplatts · Sun Oct 31, 2021 6:53 pm

greenair727 wrote:
The codeshare would certainly help. Does AS do it for their CMH and CVG routes? I remember--years ago--flying from PDX to CLE (on UA, IIRC) and chatting with people who were en route to NY, just connecting in CLE. They said, there weren't many great options to get from PDX to NY--at least at the time.

AA already codeshares with AS on AS's SEA-CVG/CMH nonstop flights and already offers AS SEA-CVG/CMH nonstop flights for sale on aa.com (with an AA flight number).

ContinentalEWR · Sun Oct 31, 2021 7:00 pm

greenair727 wrote:
masseybrown wrote:
greenair727 wrote:
. I could go for that as well, though in the ideal situation, we'd see CLE -SEA 2X, -PDX 1X, and -SAN 1X.

I'm interested in whether AS/AA will make anything out of their codeshare possibilities over CLE. Currently the CLE-SEA flights are shown on AS's schedule, but without any codeshares, which would be possible from SEA to LGA (1 hr 45 min connection) PHL ( 1 hr 15 min) and MIA (1hr 25 min). Again, these would not be preferred routings, but they would be possible in the event of nonstop cancellations. With a bit more minor schedule tweaking, DCA and CLT could be added to the list. Then, blue-skying it, AA could add a PHX-CLE feeder. Are they interested? I don't know. They could, but haven't, done it in PIT.

The codeshare would certainly help. Does AS do it for their CMH and CVG routes? I remember--years ago--flying from PDX to CLE (on UA, IIRC) and chatting with people who were en route to NY, just connecting in CLE. They said, there weren't many great options to get from PDX to NY--at least at the time.

The NYC Area to PDX has always been somewhat limited in terms of service. I don't have a lot of history on it, but for some things here and there. DL at one time emphasized JFK-PDX as a one stop to its PDX TPAC hublet, when that was around, in the 1990s. It still serves the market today, with a single nonstop and currently on a 757.

AS and UA fly EWR-PDX once daily. AS, B6, and DL fly PDX from JFK once daily. That's pretty much the extent of it. Doesn't surprise that folks were connecting through CLE from PDX to NY for a time. CLE, as a hub, was a much more compact, efficient, and somewhat pleasant place to transit relative to ORD, and a lot less delay prone.

AC4500 · Sun Oct 31, 2021 8:27 pm

LifetimeGS wrote:
I'd prefer NS CLE to PDX than a daily double to SEA.

Considering that AS will go 2x daily on SEA-CMH/CVG by summer 2022, I highly doubt we'll see CLE-PDX from AS for a very long time, if ever. Since G4 just left CLE, they're not going to start that route either. Maybe F9 tries it again? Other than than, I don't think any other airline would be interested.

ContinentalEWR wrote:
The NYC Area to PDX has always been somewhat limited in terms of service. I don't have a lot of history on it, but for some things here and there. DL at one time emphasized JFK-PDX as a one stop to its PDX TPAC hublet, when that was around, in the 1990s. It still serves the market today, with a single nonstop and currently on a 757.

AS and UA fly EWR-PDX once daily. AS, B6, and DL fly PDX from JFK once daily. That's pretty much the extent of it. Doesn't surprise that folks were connecting through CLE from PDX to NY for a time.

Not to get too off topic, but just pointing out that DL will be using the 767-400 on JFK-PDX starting Nov. 6 through Dec. 18 and AS is set to increase to 2x daily starting Nov. 4. At this point, JFK-PDX is pretty well-covered. EWR-PDX is still underserved though, IMO.

ContinentalEWR wrote:
CLE, as a hub, was a much more compact, efficient, and somewhat pleasant place to transit relative to ORD, and a lot less delay prone.

I just connected through ORD yesterday (BWI-ORD-PDX). O'Hare is such a joke. At least I was flying UA instead of AA, or else I'd probably still be stuck in Baltimore today.

avtcle · Mon Nov 01, 2021 10:56 pm

United CLE-CUN going daily for the entire month of March. Currently running 2x weekly SUN/SAT.

fun2fly · Mon Nov 01, 2021 11:09 pm

avtcle wrote:
United CLE-CUN going daily for the entire month of March. Currently running 2x weekly SUN/SAT.

The UA route planners sure have their creative hats going on the large scale international expansion. I'm glad they had extra time to find some additional flights for CLE. I always thought SJU would also go daily. Here's to hoping some of them stick like LAS, etc.

masseybrown · Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:20 am

CLE September data: 646.9K pax; year to date 5.170.6 million - up 6.8%. Cargo 16.3 million lbs - year to date 66,787 million - up 3.8%

greenair727 · Tue Nov 02, 2021 4:51 am

^2020 is easy to beat. How do the numbers compare to YTD2019?

CLEguy · Tue Nov 02, 2021 12:58 pm

greenair727 wrote:
^2020 is easy to beat. How do the numbers compare to YTD2019?

Sept. 2021: https://www.clevelandairport.com/sites/ ... 021_jh.pdf

Sept. 2019: https://www.clevelandairport.com/sites/ ... p_2019.pdf

2019 YTD 7,439,519
2021 YTD 5,137,125
Difference 2,302,394
% Change 30.9%

cledaybuck · Tue Nov 02, 2021 1:52 pm

joeman wrote:
greenair727 wrote:
joeman wrote:
The CLE geographical catchment area is not a full 360 degrees like PIT, CMH, CVG, IND, even DTW with a bridge to Windsor/Canada, it is 180". There's a big lake on the north and close by CAK to the south....

Not sure of the point of this as the lake actually makes the cleveland region more dense (and more interesting). NYC has a lot of water on one side too and it doesn't make it any less of a city, rather, the opposite. Lake or not, the Cleveland market is 4-5 million people, much larger than CMH, CVG, or PIT. If CMH can support two daily flights, certainly CLE can more easily. And I am fully aware that market demand is driven by more than just population. Also, as LifetimeGS mentioned above, 1 SEA and 1 PDX daily may be preferable than 2x SEA. I could go for that as well, though in the ideal situation, we'd see CLE -SEA 2X, -PDX 1X, and -SAN 1X.

Try putting it back into context as a take on the whole for why CLE wasn't chosen ahead of others much less AS starting at 2 daily unlike the others...the reference to CAK taking some traffic, DL and F9 in CLE and CVG, no one residing in the lake...

Why doesn't the CAK argument also apply to CVG and DAY?

greenair727 · Tue Nov 02, 2021 2:34 pm

CLEguy wrote:
greenair727 wrote:
^2020 is easy to beat. How do the numbers compare to YTD2019?

Sept. 2021: https://www.clevelandairport.com/sites/ ... 021_jh.pdf

Sept. 2019: https://www.clevelandairport.com/sites/ ... p_2019.pdf

2019 YTD 7,439,519
2021 YTD 5,137,125
Difference 2,302,394
% Change 30.9%

Wow! That's very impressive---and we're still in the pandemic - so once business travel returns we're going to easily cross 12-13 million pax (full year) -- maybe 2022!

jplatts · Tue Nov 02, 2021 2:44 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
Why doesn't the CAK argument also apply to CVG and DAY?

DAY is further from Cincinnati than CAK is from Cleveland. DAY is also located in a separate metro area from CVG, even though DAY is located near northeastern Butler County and northwestern Warren County (which are located in the Cincinnati MSA).

CLE is also located on the southwest side of the city of Cleveland and CAK is located in between Akron and Canton, whereas CVG is located south of the city of Cincinnati in Northern Kentucky and DAY is located on the north side of the city of Dayton.

CLE is also closer to the northern side of the Akron area than CVG is to the southern side of the Dayton area.

ncflyer · Tue Nov 02, 2021 4:50 pm

greenair-- 31% drop, what makes you so confident that's a path to 12-13MM? If I had to guess (wish I had real data), the ULCC's are lagging behind in seats further than the big 3 at CLE from '19 to '21. My anecdotal support-- we all know UA is paying more heed now to CLE at any time than since the hub closed. And DL is almost all A321s to ATL that's a pretty big jump compared to the MD 80s and 90s that used to dominate the route.

Manderson12 · Tue Nov 02, 2021 4:56 pm

Well CAK is also in a separate Metro area than CLE, but it seems that the rest of your analogy makes a lot of sense. Very interesting the dynamics of how CVG and DAY vs CLE and CAK play out.

greenair727 · Tue Nov 02, 2021 6:09 pm

ncflyer wrote:
greenair-- 31% drop, what makes you so confident that's a path to 12-13MM? If I had to guess (wish I had real data), the ULCC's are lagging behind in seats further than the big 3 at CLE from '19 to '21. My anecdotal support-- we all know UA is paying more heed now to CLE at any time than since the hub closed. And DL is almost all A321s to ATL that's a pretty big jump compared to the MD 80s and 90s that used to dominate the route.

Ooops! Sorry--I misread the post! It said:

2019 YTD 7,439,519
2021 YTD 5,137,125
Difference 2,302,394
% Change 30.9%

I mixed up 2019 and 2021 after I saw the 30.9% change was shown as positive, not negative. But now seeing that is should have been written as -30.9, I no longer see 12-13MM in 2022 (or '23). I withdraw that comment!

cledaybuck · Tue Nov 02, 2021 6:28 pm

jplatts wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
Why doesn't the CAK argument also apply to CVG and DAY?

DAY is further from Cincinnati than CAK is from Cleveland. DAY is also located in a separate metro area from CVG, even though DAY is located near northeastern Butler County and northwestern Warren County (which are located in the Cincinnati MSA).

CLE is also located on the southwest side of the city of Cleveland and CAK is located in between Akron and Canton, whereas CVG is located south of the city of Cincinnati in Northern Kentucky and DAY is located on the north side of the city of Dayton.

CLE is also closer to the northern side of the Akron area than CVG is to the southern side of the Dayton area.

I think you are splitting hairs on the differences. We are talking 10-15 minutes. It has been shown during the DL hub days that people in CVG will absolutely use DAY as an alternative depending on price.

CLEguy · Tue Nov 02, 2021 6:55 pm

greenair727 wrote:
ncflyer wrote:
greenair-- 31% drop, what makes you so confident that's a path to 12-13MM? If I had to guess (wish I had real data), the ULCC's are lagging behind in seats further than the big 3 at CLE from '19 to '21. My anecdotal support-- we all know UA is paying more heed now to CLE at any time than since the hub closed. And DL is almost all A321s to ATL that's a pretty big jump compared to the MD 80s and 90s that used to dominate the route.

Ooops! Sorry--I misread the post! It said:

2019 YTD 7,439,519
2021 YTD 5,137,125
Difference 2,302,394
% Change 30.9%

I mixed up 2019 and 2021 after I saw the 30.9% change was shown as positive, not negative. But now seeing that is should have been written as -30.9, I no longer see 12-13MM in 2022 (or '23). I withdraw that comment!

Sorry for any confusion, but I cannot edit the post any longer. I thought people could figure it out from context.

masseybrown · Tue Nov 02, 2021 7:15 pm

Speaking of UA, they have operated a couple of flights of interest on Oct 28 and Nov 2. UA2715 routed QLA (Basingstoke, UK) - KEF - CLE - IAH - GYR, all stops being fairly brief layovers.

avtcle · Tue Nov 02, 2021 7:42 pm

I believe United has bought quite a few used A319s/A320s from European carriers. They’ve been ferrying the deliveries through Cleveland from Reykjavik for a couple years now.

chrisjake · Wed Nov 03, 2021 2:14 am

avtcle wrote:
I believe United has bought quite a few used A319s/A320s from European carriers. They’ve been ferrying the deliveries through Cleveland from Reykjavik for a couple years now.

They've been mostly ex-EasyJet aircraft:

https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/10140197

https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/10167602

masseybrown · Wed Nov 03, 2021 5:19 am

^ Ah, thanks. They all used flight number 2715, too. :smile:

ncflyer · Fri Nov 05, 2021 10:20 am

Hmm police chief resigns with new mayoral election. Anyone here anything about airport related to new administration?

CLEguy · Fri Nov 05, 2021 12:56 pm

ncflyer wrote:
Hmm police chief resigns with new mayoral election. Anyone here anything about airport related to new administration?

I thought about that, too, but have not heard a thing yet.

greenair727 · Fri Nov 05, 2021 2:53 pm

CLEguy wrote:
ncflyer wrote:
Hmm police chief resigns with new mayoral election. Anyone here anything about airport related to new administration?

I thought about that, too, but have not heard a thing yet.

I would imagine Kennedy is preparing to leave, whether looking for his next job or planning to retire. Bibb doesn't take office til January and it take months to find a new port control director, so he has plenty of time. It took a year or so to find Kennedy after Ricky Smith left. On the other hand, Bibb could keep Kennedy if he wanted to and if Kennedy wants to stay, I'm sure he may have already reached out to Bibb asking about his intentions.

The difference between the police chief and Kennedy---Bibb on camera specifically said he would replace the chief of police. I never heard him say the same about Kennedy's role other the generic campaign pledge to "clean house".

masseybrown · Fri Nov 05, 2021 3:38 pm

There was an eight-hour long "hiring event" Tuesday at CLE for AA rampies and customer service agants. I wonder if we should read anything into that.

https://www.envoyair.com/events/clevela ... ing-event/

greenair727 · Fri Nov 05, 2021 5:55 pm

masseybrown wrote:
There was an eight-hour long "hiring event" Tuesday at CLE for AA rampies and customer service agants. I wonder if we should read anything into that.

https://www.envoyair.com/events/clevela ... ing-event/

AA/Envoy had a few of these events or new jobs listings over the years. And similar speculations were made regarding increased routes/service levels. But these never panned out as such. Maybe they just pay too little, offer too few hours (from too little service) or other conditions results in them having high turnover.

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