Boiler905 wrote:
CLE doesn't need 58 flipping gates any more than EK needed 100 A380s. Good grief.
It doesn't now, but just might at PAL 5. If that level is not reached, then this final buildout won't occur.
Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
Boiler905 wrote:
CLE doesn't need 58 flipping gates any more than EK needed 100 A380s. Good grief.
Boiler905 wrote:
CLE doesn't need 58 flipping gates any more than EK needed 100 A380s. Good grief.
Citrus1492 wrote:greenair727 wrote:Why would Breeze choose CAK over CLE? They will certainly get more pax at CLE---and yes, more competition, but just select routes not well served out of CLE, like MSY, MIA, PBI....
The CPE at CAK isnt the robbery it is at CLE. Also, parking at CAK is less costly and rarely full.
The only airport better than CAK would have been MFD. Its an hour drive from CLE, CAK, and CMH. With low fares and free parking MFD would be a smashing success for any LCC.
greenair727 wrote:Boiler905 wrote:
CLE doesn't need 58 flipping gates any more than EK needed 100 A380s. Good grief.
CLE could certainly use 58 gates once the city gets back in growth mode, which its on the cusp of it hasn't started already.
greenair727 wrote:Citrus1492 wrote:greenair727 wrote:Why would Breeze choose CAK over CLE? They will certainly get more pax at CLE---and yes, more competition, but just select routes not well served out of CLE, like MSY, MIA, PBI....
The CPE at CAK isnt the robbery it is at CLE. Also, parking at CAK is less costly and rarely full.
The only airport better than CAK would have been MFD. Its an hour drive from CLE, CAK, and CMH. With low fares and free parking MFD would be a smashing success for any LCC.
Clevelanders don't even want to drive to Akron, they certainly won't drive to Mansfield. Airlines are willing to pay a higher CPE at CLE over CAK, because CLE is where the demand is. I get that Neeleman is trying to get subsidizes/guarantees or whatever by flying out of CAK, but that's pretty disappointing--not strategic--of him. He'd be creating a REAL new product if he was serving new markets (like CLE-PVD, MSY, SAN)--where he could still get that Ohio guarantee and serve a bigger market. CAK-Florida is just a copy a duplication of routes already served out of Hopkins, so he offers the market nothing new.
greenair727 wrote:Citrus1492 wrote:greenair727 wrote:Why would Breeze choose CAK over CLE? They will certainly get more pax at CLE---and yes, more competition, but just select routes not well served out of CLE, like MSY, MIA, PBI....
The CPE at CAK isnt the robbery it is at CLE. Also, parking at CAK is less costly and rarely full.
The only airport better than CAK would have been MFD. Its an hour drive from CLE, CAK, and CMH. With low fares and free parking MFD would be a smashing success for any LCC.
Clevelanders don't even want to drive to Akron, they certainly won't drive to Mansfield. Airlines are willing to pay a higher CPE at CLE over CAK, because CLE is where the demand is. I get that Neeleman is trying to get subsidizes/guarantees or whatever by flying out of CAK, but that's pretty disappointing--not strategic--of him. He'd be creating a REAL new product if he was serving new markets (like CLE-PVD, MSY, SAN)--where he could still get that Ohio guarantee and serve a bigger market. CAK-Florida is just a copy a duplication of routes already served out of Hopkins, so he offers the market nothing new.
MohawkWeekend wrote:ncflyer wrote:Robert1010 yes the plan as I remember was to move FIS to the new B, and renovating B was in one of the earlier phases-- you can see it in the PAL 2 drawing posted by flyPIT. Fixing the international situation was very much one of the aims of the plan. .
Mohawk-- no, you'll note the PAL 2 drawing does not show any parked plane indicators around D-- that means teh building is standing but not in use. By PAL 5 it's gone. I watched the entire presentation and the plan is to sink zero dollars and zero sense in to D other than wrecking it down. From the criterial they used on the various plans, you could tell they weighted pretty heavily passnenger walking distance. In addition to the cost of repurposing D, that one weighed heavily investing in using D.
I'm still struggling with the cost to repurpose D - so you have to pour some more concrete, add some Jetways and readjust the boarding areas. How expensive could that be? Unlike the other concourses, D has no interior walls(right?). Yeah it's a long walk from the existing terminal but what if they built a small terminal in front of it. Plenty of US airports have separate terminals with a means to get from one to another. Ohare comes to mind. Lets say D was Delta's Terminal. How many passengers would need to get from D to the main terminal? When I landed on a United flight, I didn't stroll to the other end of A.
Heck - cut a deal with United make D their own concourse - think of the high end concierge service their own terminal could offer. They are paying for it anyhow.
MohawkWeekend wrote:CLE debt is already too high. If they spend $750 million on Phase 1, debt would then be around $1.25 billion. CPE would have to double to cover that. IMO they need a quick addition that frees up space in the terminal. Small terminal addition, redo the bathrooms, make the walkway to Concourse A 3 times as wide for TSA. Move the rental cars back, build a new garage. And your good until the debt is down.
Unless that steel and concrete is bad, it will have to be cheaper than building new. How come they can repurpose the Terminal Tower, the Ameritrust Tower and 55 Public Sq instead of building new? They are planning on rebuilding parts of the main terminal which are 40 years older than Concourse D.
MohawkWeekend wrote:Perhaps they need to come up with a Plan B. What if Phase 1 has overruns due to the increase in material costs in the last 6 months? As it is $750 million is a chunk of change when you already have $500 million in debt (unless the Feds Infrastructure Bill pays for it).
IMO there should have be some plan for a much smaller program of improvements i.e. a way forward if the grand plan is not economically feasible and just sits on the shelf.
chrisjake wrote:I don't quite understand the Breeze route-map. CAK, PIT and CMH to several of the same vacation destinations sounds like Vacation Express, or Vision Airlines to me. The rest looks like when ExpressJet went out on their own, but hey, Neelman has a proven track record so I'll wait and see what happens. I could see Breeze going the way of Frontier and moving from CAK to CLE, but then I think about the cost of flying into Hopkins and I'm not so sure.
MohawkWeekend wrote:According to the Cleveland.com article -
"Breeze is receiving financial support for the new routes from the new Air Service Restoration program offered through JobsOhio, the state’s economic development arm. According to JobsOhio spokesman Matt Englehart, the incentive is a revenue guarantee, not a grant or loan. The carrier will receive assistance if the route doesn’t generate certain agreed-upon revenue dollars."
CLEguy wrote:I wonder when the replacement club for the closed Airspace Lounge, supposedly a Priority Pass lounge, will finally open. It was supposed to open last summer, but plans were impacted by the pandemic.
Citrus1492 wrote:greenair727 wrote:Citrus1492 wrote:The CPE at CAK isnt the robbery it is at CLE. Also, parking at CAK is less costly and rarely full.
The only airport better than CAK would have been MFD. Its an hour drive from CLE, CAK, and CMH. With low fares and free parking MFD would be a smashing success for any LCC.
Clevelanders don't even want to drive to Akron, they certainly won't drive to Mansfield. Airlines are willing to pay a higher CPE at CLE over CAK, because CLE is where the demand is. I get that Neeleman is trying to get subsidizes/guarantees or whatever by flying out of CAK, but that's pretty disappointing--not strategic--of him. He'd be creating a REAL new product if he was serving new markets (like CLE-PVD, MSY, SAN)--where he could still get that Ohio guarantee and serve a bigger market. CAK-Florida is just a copy a duplication of routes already served out of Hopkins, so he offers the market nothing new.
Er, the drive from Cleveland to Mansfield is the same as CLE to CAK.
Midwestindy wrote:It seems like incentives played a major role in where Breeze added service based on the reports from PIT, CHS, e.t.c.
flyPIT wrote:Midwestindy wrote:It seems like incentives played a major role in where Breeze added service based on the reports from PIT, CHS, e.t.c.
I haven’t seen one report from PIT on what they offered, if anything.
ncflyer wrote:UA is described as supportive. In fact it sounds like UA wants to repurpose D, but the article positions it as a big stretch to do so.
masseybrown wrote:ncflyer wrote:UA is described as supportive. In fact it sounds like UA wants to repurpose D, but the article positions it as a big stretch to do so.
Of course UA wants to demolish/repurpose D; it gets them out of $1 million/month payment on an empty building if it's done before their lease runs out in 2027. If I were CLE management, I'd start demo a week after UA hands back the keys. Meanwhile, what could CLE get out of UA as a price for early lease termination? How about a 50% payment reduction in exchange for a guarantee of 3 years non-stop service to a dozen domestic points and a couple of international ones PLUS hiring another 1K people for the mx hangars?
masseybrown wrote:ncflyer wrote:UA is described as supportive. In fact it sounds like UA wants to repurpose D, but the article positions it as a big stretch to do so.
Of course UA wants to demolish/repurpose D; it gets them out of $1 million/month payment on an empty building if it's done before their lease runs out in 2027. If I were CLE management, I'd start demo a week after UA hands back the keys. Meanwhile, what could CLE get out of UA as a price for early lease termination? How about a 50% payment reduction in exchange for a guarantee of 3 years non-stop service to a dozen domestic points and a couple of international ones PLUS hiring another 1K people for the mx hangars?
avtcle wrote:Next extension we should find out the fate of BOS/DFW. Hoping those will return next spring/summer. EWR I’m still assuming is just gone for good, but we never got any word on that.
avtcle wrote:Spirit extended their schedule From November through Feb. Looks like a continuing strong schedule for CLE:
CLE-ATL: 2x daily
CLE-MCO: 2x daily
CLE-FLL: 2x daily
CLE-TPA: 1x daily
CLE-RSW: 1x daily
CLE-LAS: 1x daily
CLE-LAX: 1x daily
CLE-CUN: 4x weekly
CLE-MSY: 3x weekly
11 average daily departures
Next extension we should find out the fate of BOS/DFW. Hoping those will return next spring/summer. EWR I’m still assuming is just gone for good, but we never got any word on that.
MohawkWeekend wrote:Well I'm glad United and I think alike! There is nothing wrong with D and I still stand by it HAS to be cheaper to update than build a new concourse. Like I've said before - DTW and ORD show that separate terminals can work. At least we'd have one modern terminal and the crowding would be eliminated in the existing terminal. Widen the walk way to Concourse A by 3 times to allow for better TSA checking. Convert the old Admirals Club to bathrooms. Put in some more windows. Get rid of all the vendor kiosks in the walkways. Move back the rental cars after you tear down the Sheraton, build a 2 story (cheap) parking garage where the torn down garage was, add 15 feet to the back of the other bathrooms to make them larger. And cover the drop off areas so people don't get rained on. Done.
Oh and get rid of the traffic light at the entrance.
MohawkWeekend wrote:How big would a terminal for 6 to 8 gates need to be? Assuming D would be part of the new design, say $100 million for the facility and road ways. The garage and tearing down the Sheraton are all part of the their Plan too. Widening the walkway to A maybe $25 million. It's been a long time since I worked in construction supervision.
Moving SWA to now open C concourse would allow them to tear down the end of B and make a round building similar to AA's Charlotte terminal with a Custom facility beneath it. There is a lot of space there for such a building. Build a new B along the side of the existing B to tie into the circle at the end.
ncflyer wrote:CLEguy I definitely remember in the presentation they mentioned improving the connectivity to D would be necessary if they kept D so I assume a new terminal connection was in the numbers. Although not mentioned, one would have to assume new direct connectivity from the main terminal to D would be necessary if there was ever an extensive renovation or rebuild of C in a "keep D" option.
MohawkWeekend wrote:Well I'm glad United and I think alike! There is nothing wrong with D and I still stand by it HAS to be cheaper to update than build a new concourse. Like I've said before - DTW and ORD show that separate terminals can work. At least we'd have one modern terminal and the crowding would be eliminated in the existing terminal. Widen the walk way to Concourse A by 3 times to allow for better TSA checking. Convert the old Admirals Club to bathrooms. Put in some more windows. Get rid of all the vendor kiosks in the walkways. Move back the rental cars after you tear down the Sheraton, build a 2 story (cheap) parking garage where the torn down garage was, add 15 feet to the back of the other bathrooms to make them larger. And cover the drop off areas so people don't get rained on. Done.
Oh and get rid of the traffic light at the entrance.
MohawkWeekend wrote:According to Google maps its 80.3 miles from downtown Cleveland to MFD, 49.4 miles to CAK.
Citrus1492 wrote:MohawkWeekend wrote:According to Google maps its 80.3 miles from downtown Cleveland to MFD, 49.4 miles to CAK.
Insignificant at 80mph on 71 south.