Cleveland Aviation Thread - 2021

CLEguy · Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:43 pm

LifetimeGS wrote:
https://www.crainscleveland.com/real-estate/100th-bomb-group-restaurant-sold-auction-1.1-million

Sorry subscriber only....

Link didn't seem to work.

MohawkWeekend · Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:27 am

Wonder how much they want for the P-51? I'll call the building department to see if there are any rules about putting it in my front yard.

LifetimeGS · Mon Feb 15, 2021 4:03 am

https://www.crainscleveland.com/real-es ... 11-million

Correct link above sorry. It sold for 1.1 Million not the 11 million in link. It was sold to a restaurant group no details. It includes 4.5 acres and operated for 37 years.

"A Northeast Ohio restaurant operator submitted the winning bid of $1.1 million at an auction Thursday, Oct. 29, for the 100th Bomb Group Restaurant near Cleveland Hopkins International Airport."

plinth857 · Mon Feb 15, 2021 1:53 pm

avtcle wrote:
November load factors rolling right out with October:
...
American Airlines
CLE-PHX: 53%
CLE-MIA: 48%
CLE-DFW: 67%
CLE-CLT: 78%
CLE-ORD: 39%
CLE-PHL: 49%
...

When did American fly CLE-PHX in October? Was that a once weekly thing, or something?

Also, I'm surprised at the load factor for Miami. I've flown a few times, each time connecting in Miami or Charlotte. All of my flights have been 90% full or more, including two flights where I connected in MIA. Must be the times I'm choosing.

ncflyer · Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:20 pm

the most startling thing to me is seeing the load factors to LGA-- in the 30s on only one airline? Yikes. I remember the days I don't know maybe 20 years ago when LGA was consistently the #1 destination from Cleveland, in the pandemic it's down to 1 or 2 flights per day on Delta and that's it. I get it, it's all about business travel being way down, but it's still striking.

umichman · Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:42 pm

plinth857 wrote:
avtcle wrote:
November load factors rolling right out with October:
...
American Airlines
CLE-PHX: 53%
CLE-MIA: 48%
CLE-DFW: 67%
CLE-CLT: 78%
CLE-ORD: 39%
CLE-PHL: 49%
...

When did American fly CLE-PHX in October? Was that a once weekly thing, or something?

Also, I'm surprised at the load factor for Miami. I've flown a few times, each time connecting in Miami or Charlotte. All of my flights have been 90% full or more, including two flights where I connected in MIA. Must be the times I'm choosing.

Yes, AA launched Sat-only service back in November (the above numbers include November) -- https://www.aviationpros.com/airlines/n ... n-november

plinth857 · Mon Feb 15, 2021 8:43 pm

umichman wrote:
Yes, AA launched Sat-only service back in November (the above numbers include November) -- https://www.aviationpros.com/airlines/n ... n-november

Thanks! Not sure how I missed this when it happened. Shame on me!

strangeplanes · Tue Feb 16, 2021 7:13 am

CLEguy wrote:
masseybrown wrote:
CLEguy wrote:

I did look into it, but the only source of historical data that was readily available was from the FAA website: https://www.faa.gov/airports/planning_c ... passenger/

It measures something called Landed Weight (lbs) and I was able to get the data from 1999-2019.

I believe 'landed weight' is the total aircraft weight on which CLE landing fees are based - nothing to do with cargo. Thanks for doing the research.

Then would this be the weight of "all-cargo" aircraft (FedEx and UPS, for example) only? I wonder why the FAA would single this measure out? I'm still confused.

Approval for expenditures is based on landing weight. So Cleveland would meed XX% of landed weight to sign off on a new terminal in the future.

MohawkWeekend · Tue Feb 16, 2021 11:11 am

Cleveland built a couple of hundred million dollar Medical Mart/Convention Center on the hopes of becoming more of a competitive with other cities. Just saying........

avtcle · Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:10 am

Hoping that the summer schedule will hold, but it looks like Air Canada is aiming for a Cleveland CLE to Toronto YYZ resumption in May. Equipment is Sky Regional ERJ-175 at 3x daily. Nice upgrade from the CRJ-200.

Trk1 · Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:24 pm

Interesting aircraft in Cleveland today at gate 21. United airbus 319 flight 2715 arrived last night from Reykajavik. Today it is departing for Goodyear. This aircraft was purchased in Europe and is to be parked in Arizona waiting to be modified and join the fleet.

MohawkWeekend · Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:29 pm

Slider needs a ride out to Spring Training.

Citrus1492 · Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:38 pm

avtcle wrote:
Hoping that the summer schedule will hold, but it looks like Air Canada is aiming for a Cleveland CLE to Toronto YYZ resumption in May. Equipment is Sky Regional ERJ-175 at 3x daily. Nice upgrade from the CRJ-200.

Maybe those guys can keep a schedule. Air Georgian and Jazz were always late or cancelled. I think Jazz was even worse than Georgian.

CLEguy · Fri Feb 19, 2021 11:16 pm

Looks like United plans to start BOS-LHR service sometime this year. I guess restarting CLE-LHR, another non-hub-to non-hub route is out (j/k)? I heard they will use one of the EWR slots. Let's see if this route actually starts this year.

https://hub.united.com/2021-02-19-unite ... 21690.html

zelegp · Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:26 pm

I feel like if UA ran a TATL route out of CLE it would be CLE-FRA with an A321XLR, whenever they get them.

That’s also just very wishful thinking.

masseybrown · Sat Feb 20, 2021 8:37 pm

CLEguy wrote:
Let's see if this route actually starts this year.

https://hub.united.com/2021-02-19-unite ... 21690.html

The schedules are full of flights the airlines know they're not going to operate - they just keep cancelling them one month at a time. Whether BOS-LHR is like that I don't know. A fully depreciated 763 just might be cash positive on that route, for the summer at least.

plinth857 · Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:01 am

A cursory look at AA's website shows CLE-PHX nonstop once daily bookable from 10/30/2021 onward. I know they have once weekly service now, I hadn't heard it's going daily, though it will make an interesting alternative connection point to DFW for western locations.

avtcle · Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:08 am

Would be nice if it holds. Cleveland hasn’t had daily legacy service on the route since US Airways cut it in 2015.

ncflyer · Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:41 pm

If that UA flight to LHR does go as planned from BOS, it'll just be a reminder of how UA opened up a superior European connection opportunity compared to EWR on a competing carrier when they ceded the CLE Boston route to Delta. When flying to Europe I do anything I can to avoid EWR and JFK and PHL. UA could have opened up that connection opportunity. . .

avtcle · Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:20 pm

UA is pushing 5x weekly CLE-TPA through the end of April (Republic E170). Would be nice to see this go year-round with FLL, RSW and MCO.

cledaybuck · Thu Feb 25, 2021 12:40 am

Article about new terminal proposal at CLE.
https://www.cleveland.com/business/2021 ... minal.html

flyPIT · Thu Feb 25, 2021 12:42 am

"Airlines facing huge COVID-related cost increases at Cleveland Hopkins airport"
https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/news/a ... r-BB1dZmNu

2020 CPE at CLE was 2-3x that of its peer markets according to the article at $32.

avtcle · Thu Feb 25, 2021 1:50 am

cledaybuck wrote:
Article about new terminal proposal at CLE.
https://www.cleveland.com/business/2021 ... minal.html

So it sounds like they are revealing which proposal they have chosen soon. Most important changes will certainly be customs facility, rental car facilitiy and ground transportation area. I’m assuming all proposals have a CBP facility that doesn’t require you to enter a secure part of the airport.

CLEguy · Thu Feb 25, 2021 2:05 am

avtcle wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
Article about new terminal proposal at CLE.
https://www.cleveland.com/business/2021 ... minal.html

So it sounds like they are revealing which proposal they have chosen soon. Most important changes will certainly be customs facility, rental car facilitiy and ground transportation area. I’m assuming all proposals have a CBP facility that doesn’t require you to enter a secure part of the airport.

They already have selected the proposal they favor-Terminal Family #2. Take a look here https://www.aviationcle.com/post/cle-master-plan-update-january-2021 for a summary and links to presentation from January.

Trk1 · Thu Feb 25, 2021 2:21 am

We have a massive problem in paying for the airport due to the COVID situation. We need to sell Burke ASAP to help pay for Hopkins expansion.
If we think that Spirit, Frontier and Allegiant will pay for this dream on. We are in bed with low cost carriers and will pay the price for it.

ChrisPBacon · Thu Feb 25, 2021 2:30 am

"The preferred terminal design – not yet finalized – is likely to include rebuilt, wider concourses; an expanded ticketing area; a relocated rental car facility; centralized Transportation Security Administration screening; a new, centrally-located Customs facility; redesigned entry roadways and more."

https://www.cleveland.com/business/2021 ... minal.html

A rebuild on the existing footprint is my expectation. Think how PDX rebuilt the airport in stages. Concourse B can probably be eliminated, with an FIS built between the current ticketing area and A, making A2/A4 the arrival swing gates. The current A is much wider, and moving the FIS from the end of A could allow A to be lengthened if needed.

D should remain dead until UA has paid it off. Then knock it down. A new parking structure with car rentals on the bottom levels is a must. Flyover ramps from 71 northbound to westbound Snow Rd should be high on the list in order to improve access from Strongsville and Medina county.

The trick will be getting it paid for in the current environment. Luckily for the industry Cuyahoga county already added a sin tax to alcohol and tobacco to pay for sports stadiums, so thats out.

MohawkWeekend · Thu Feb 25, 2021 2:31 am

Let's see what comes out of Biden's Infrastructure Bill before we panic. Ohio has some pretty powerful congressional pull now.

masseybrown · Thu Feb 25, 2021 5:57 am

Trk1 wrote:
We need to sell Burke ASAP to help pay for Hopkins expansion.

To whom? Assuming there's a ready cash buyer, the sale of Burke would require a lot of the proceeds to be paid to the FAA. It could happen, but it couldn't happen fast.

A possibility of what might happen is various local governments could agree to forego the payments the airport makes to them or perhaps spread the payments out over time. In 2019, Cleveland got $12.994 million, Cuyahoga County got $4.532 million, and Brookpark got $587K. There's $18 million for a start. That's big money to the airport, almost the whole $21 million extra charge to the airlines; but it's small potatoes to the governments involved. The problem with being "nice" to the airlines is they're rarely nice back. So maybe the govts. forgive just half of the $18 million.

The cleveland.com story reports only the problem. There are lots of ways to deal with it without driving all the airlines away. Let's see what Kennedy can come up with.

(See the FAA CATS Form 126 for government payments)
https://cats.airports.faa.gov/reports/reports.cfm

Brianpr3 · Thu Feb 25, 2021 7:41 am

How long till D gets fully paid off?

DaveMetroD · Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:31 am

The IX Center area would be a nice place to build a new terminal while keeping the old operational in the interim.
Now that it's closed and Cleveland owns it...

ContinentalEWR · Thu Feb 25, 2021 1:02 pm

There is nothing that can be done to repurpose D into a functioning terminal again? I guess not, given it was built for regional jets. What a waste. CLE needs an airport modernization for sure and it would make sense to remove Concourse B as it is kind of small relative to A and C, but do the traffic patterns and O&D demand really warrant this kind of spend?

CLEguy · Thu Feb 25, 2021 1:22 pm

Here's more about CLE's costs: https://www.cleveland.com/business/2021 ... 3-headline

ncflyer · Thu Feb 25, 2021 1:26 pm

DaveMetroD-- the IX center land is not on the table as one of the three alternatives under consideration. I'm not sure why, it seems like a pretty good idea for much less disruptive, greenfield re-build. Maybe the issue is cost or that the IX center became available too late in the process.

Terminal D wasn't a waste-- it was the right decision at the time and United paid for it. What made it a "waste" was all the consolidation in the industry, which many people didn't see coming.

With all the major issues the city of CLE faces, with the pandemic, with the fact that the airport is run by the city not a regional commission like most airports, I'll be pleasantly surprised if we see movement here.

ChrisPBacon · Thu Feb 25, 2021 1:44 pm

DaveMetroD wrote:
The IX Center area would be a nice place to build a new terminal while keeping the old operational in the interim.
Now that it's closed and Cleveland owns it...

IIRC it's only closed because the company running it gave up the contract. It could be an Expo center again, if someone wanted to take it on. But who knows when we will be allowed to have events like auto. boat, and RV shows again. Building on the IX Center site would require extending the Rapid, and that would be expensive. I think rebuilding on the current site makes more sense.

From what I can tell, it looks like UA is on the hook for about $1 million a month for another 10 years or so to pay off D. Lets say they owe the city $120 million-ish. I wonder if it would be in everyone's best interest for the city and UA to reach a deal. Maybe a 1 time payment of $90 million to be done and walk away? This would allow the city to knock it down and use the space for the rebuild.

MIflyer12 · Thu Feb 25, 2021 2:13 pm

ChrisPBacon wrote:
Concourse B can probably be eliminated, with an FIS built between the current ticketing area and A, making A2/A4 the arrival swing gates. The current A is much wider, and moving the FIS from the end of A could allow A to be lengthened if needed.

D should remain dead until UA has paid it off. Then knock it down. A new parking structure with car rentals on the bottom levels is a must. Flyover ramps from 71 northbound to westbound Snow Rd should be high on the list in order to improve access from Strongsville and Medina county.

That all sounds rather expensive, frankly. The road work is probably eligible for for some federal funding. IMHO a generous level of state funding would be questionable because Columbus, Dayton, and everything else with a passenger airport in the state will have their hands out. I don't want to consign Clevelanders to a 3rd-rate airport (and it's not my money) but one would have to question how this fits with other city and state spending priorities for an airport that sees fewer passengers than it did 15 years ago - and I mean 12 months ending 12/2019, before Covid.

MohawkWeekend · Thu Feb 25, 2021 2:18 pm

I believe the days of Cleveland expecting the airport to fund itself are over. Although the City of Cleveland owns it (unfortunate), it is a regional asset. Expect the County, State and Feds to play a much bigger role. Heck Cuyahoga County just sent millions to the Hilton Corporation to run the Convention Center Hotel that the County owns.

It does bother me that the City is still paying for that runway 20 plus years after it was built. Who does that and still has a several hundred million dollar balance due? And I sure hope the interest rate is around 3% with the low rates that look like there rising now.

umichman · Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:17 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
There is nothing that can be done to repurpose D into a functioning terminal again? I guess not, given it was built for regional jets. What a waste. CLE needs an airport modernization for sure and it would make sense to remove Concourse B as it is kind of small relative to A and C, but do the traffic patterns and O&D demand really warrant this kind of spend?

Like Concourse C in CVG, concourse D was built for a particular purpose and outlived it's usefulness. C in CVG was built in 1994 for $50m and closed in 2008. Concourse D was built in 1999 for $75m and closed in 2014. In the grand scheme of airport construction, that $75m isn't really much money and it's a sunk cost. It's best to move on at this point and tear it down, just as CVG did with their concourse C.

Robert1010 · Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:49 pm

Does the plans include a new possible Amtrak stop? Maybe the IX can be turned into a cargo facility hub for someone , plenty of room for a ramp around perimeter.

MohawkWeekend · Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:52 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
ChrisPBacon wrote:
Concourse B can probably be eliminated, with an FIS built between the current ticketing area and A, making A2/A4 the arrival swing gates. The current A is much wider, and moving the FIS from the end of A could allow A to be lengthened if needed.

D should remain dead until UA has paid it off. Then knock it down. A new parking structure with car rentals on the bottom levels is a must. Flyover ramps from 71 northbound to westbound Snow Rd should be high on the list in order to improve access from Strongsville and Medina county.

That all sounds rather expensive, frankly. The road work is probably eligible for for some federal funding. IMHO a generous level of state funding would be questionable because Columbus, Dayton, and everything else with a passenger airport in the state will have their hands out. I don't want to consign Clevelanders to a 3rd-rate airport (and it's not my money) but one would have to question how this fits with other city and state spending priorities for an airport that sees fewer passengers than it did 15 years ago - and I mean 12 months ending 12/2019, before Covid.

The terminal definitely needs an overhaul so something needs to be done. This fits right in with the State of Ohio's economic development plans so I expect there to be a State funding component. I'm pretty confident that the CLE SMSA pays more in state income taxes then any other in Ohio. But it's going to be the Federal Infrastructure bill that most likely will help the most.

IIRC CLE had more O/D passengers than IND, CMH and PIT in 2019 and 2020. And way more O/D passengers than when CO/UA had a hub here.

ContinentalEWR · Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:56 pm

umichman wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
There is nothing that can be done to repurpose D into a functioning terminal again? I guess not, given it was built for regional jets. What a waste. CLE needs an airport modernization for sure and it would make sense to remove Concourse B as it is kind of small relative to A and C, but do the traffic patterns and O&D demand really warrant this kind of spend?

Like Concourse C in CVG, concourse D was built for a particular purpose and outlived it's usefulness. C in CVG was built in 1994 for $50m and closed in 2008. Concourse D was built in 1999 for $75m and closed in 2014. In the grand scheme of airport construction, that $75m isn't really much money and it's a sunk cost. It's best to move on at this point and tear it down, just as CVG did with their concourse C.

Agreed. It was a short-sighted approach (looking back now of course) as it was intended mainly for ERJs (when CO proclaimed it had essentially gotten rid of turboprops). Problem was this was mostly 50 seaters, expensive to operate, genuinely uncomfortable to fly in, and D was build pretty much around the spec of those types of planes at that time, and thus obsolete.

masseybrown · Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:57 pm

Robert1010 wrote:
Does the plans include a new possible Amtrak stop? Maybe the IX can be turned into a cargo facility hub for someone , plenty of room for a ramp around perimeter.

Dunno about the airport master plan, but the Amtrak proposal for expanded service does. In my area the BWI Amtrak/MARC(state run trains) stop gets more popular every year.

ContinentalEWR · Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:58 pm

ncflyer wrote:
DaveMetroD-- the IX center land is not on the table as one of the three alternatives under consideration. I'm not sure why, it seems like a pretty good idea for much less disruptive, greenfield re-build. Maybe the issue is cost or that the IX center became available too late in the process.

Terminal D wasn't a waste-- it was the right decision at the time and United paid for it. What made it a "waste" was all the consolidation in the industry, which many people didn't see coming.

With all the major issues the city of CLE faces, with the pandemic, with the fact that the airport is run by the city not a regional commission like most airports, I'll be pleasantly surprised if we see movement here.

United didn't pay for D, Continental bore the construction costs. United is still paying for it, as it inherited the costs with the merger.

avtcle · Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:09 pm

United 757-300 scheduled into Cleveland tomorrow from Reykjavik. UA2715.

ChrisPBacon · Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:14 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
That all sounds rather expensive, frankly. The road work is probably eligible for for some federal funding. IMHO a generous level of state funding would be questionable because Columbus, Dayton, and everything else with a passenger airport in the state will have their hands out. I don't want to consign Clevelanders to a 3rd-rate airport (and it's not my money) but one would have to question how this fits with other city and state spending priorities for an airport that sees fewer passengers than it did 15 years ago - and I mean 12 months ending 12/2019, before Covid.

There’s probably a case to be made that the old building is getting more expensive to maintain than it’s worth. I flew out of CLE early last year. I was amazed at how poor the facilities were. Narrow concourses, no moving walkways, no space for the modern retail that airports need. You could see where the ceilings were leaking as well. The cost to simply maintain a building that sees much less traffic than it did has to be huge.

I’ve been in other Ohio airports. CAK just built gates to replace the old structure. DAY built a parking deck/consolidated car rental and new check in area and bag room. CMH is doing a lot of work as well. Not sure how much state money was involved. But if there was, it sounds like their hands were out first. Might be CLE’s turn.

ramprat74 · Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:21 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:

United didn't pay for D, Continental bore the construction costs. United is still paying for it, as it inherited the costs with the merger.

Thank you Captain Obvious

TWA772LR · Thu Feb 25, 2021 5:04 pm

Serious question, is CLE too busy to just consolidate in C and D? Or even just C?

GSPSPOT · Thu Feb 25, 2021 5:38 pm

Good for CLE! Geez, MKE can scarcely get a new International Arrivals facility off the back burner.

At least we already have an Amtrak station at MKE (requires a shuttle to the terminal).

plinth857 · Thu Feb 25, 2021 5:55 pm

avtcle wrote:
United 757-300 scheduled into Cleveland tomorrow from Reykjavik. UA2715.

Fascinating! What is it coming here for?

Citrus1492 · Thu Feb 25, 2021 6:25 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
Serious question, is CLE too busy to just consolidate in C and D? Or even just C?

In 2019, yes.

ncflyer · Thu Feb 25, 2021 6:28 pm

Mohawk not that I'm a legal expert or government regulation airport but airports are required to stand on their own financially-- in both directions, revenue and expenses. Otherwise every region in the country would use them as a piggy bank-- they would suck them dry until all that was left was threadbare carpet! The Hilton is in no way comparable-- not regulated by FAA or anybody and the county agreed to be a backstop when it was built. The city isn't paying for the runway, the airport is, and furthermore the airport frequently refinances its debt.

MohawkWeekend wrote:
I believe the days of Cleveland expecting the airport to fund itself are over. Although the City of Cleveland owns it (unfortunate), it is a regional asset. Expect the County, State and Feds to play a much bigger role. Heck Cuyahoga County just sent millions to the Hilton Corporation to run the Convention Center Hotel that the County owns.

It does bother me that the City is still paying for that runway 20 plus years after it was built. Who does that and still has a several hundred million dollar balance due? And I sure hope the interest rate is around 3% with the low rates that look like there rising now.

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