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LAX772LR
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Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Mon Aug 16, 2021 5:03 am

allegiantflyer wrote:
I Wonder if they would consider P2P markets in the Northeast - Such as BDL-LON

Very doubtful, for several reasons:

(1) it'd tax aircraft utilization, which with such a currently small fleet, could probably garner greater revenue with other uses

(2) unless they begin a UK-side strategic partnership, they wouldn't be able to offer significant connections; which such a limited-O&D market as BDL would need, in order to be competitive in opportunity-cost with another ex-JFK/BOS route.
 
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VS4ever
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Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Mon Aug 16, 2021 5:42 am

Best hope for BDL is EI coming back with
their connections through DUB to LHR. It was just about sustainable with the feed on the Dublin end and while technically LHR might have some feed in it. DUB is really better set up for this venture. B6 will stick with their massive POS at BOS and JFK, they have enough to do building that network out TATL and securing the slots needed. While it Would be fun to see. I’m with LAX on this one. Highly unlikely and EI have the planes to do it (321’s) to replicate what they did before. Although with the MAN venture maybe not as much as before.
 
tphuang
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Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Mon Aug 16, 2021 11:26 am

I think we are too early in their TATL expansion to look past JFK & BOS. JFK/BOS-London + Rest of British Isles + Paris, that probably would take all the LRs they have on order. We'd already be in 2024 before they take their first A321XLR.

After that, it really will depend on how the initial flying are coming along. I see JFK-BOS-London/Paris as markets they have to serve. Anything beyond that is depending on how various markets are working out. Maybe they will use XLR for south America or JFK-Africa. There are so many markets where XLR would work in summer time, but doesn't work during winter time.

I see something like EWR-LON more likely than BDL-LON.
 
tphuang
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Re: Jetblue Network Thread - 2021

Mon Aug 16, 2021 12:07 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Any idea if the Winter 2021/2022 schedule is trustworthy? Or do you think that JetBlue will swing an ax to it in a couple of weeks/months?


Looks like they slashed their schedule to mid Feb. Apparently, January is just up 6% in capacity vs 2019. That's a flyable schedule (I'm expecting next summer to be up 10 to 15% vs 2019). So while they may slash more, it's probably quite trustworthy.

sfojvjets wrote:
This leads me to a different point: I wonder if they'd be in the market for secondhand a321s or even 320s. That seems like an ideal way to help growth stateside while still pursuing their European ambitions. Especially considering that current Airbus backlogs are so large, for neos and 220s specifically, secondhand would seem the way to go IMO so they could get extra lift in a timely manner. B6 is going to have to go up against LCCs who have massive orderbooks, as well as on the other end, UA Next, both in the near future. This seems to be a logical way for them to face the added competition.

Is the secondhand Airbus narrowbody market large? I'm sure B6 could get extra lift if they wanted AS's 30-something 320s but 321s would be ideal if they could find them.


They probably don't want those old VX A320 due to different engine maker than their A320s. I think there are probably quite a bit of secondhand A320s around. I wonder if this recent delta variant resurgence is giving airline execs a pause.

The decision they made so far is to get extra lift by basically delaying retirement. So they are taking a lot of deliveries in 2023 and 2024 with just a few A320s and minimal number of E90s going back to lessors. It seems to be there will be a huge gap in aircraft deliveries for the second half of 2022. I don't know how realistically it will be to fast forward some of the 2023 deliveries into 2022. I think it will make sense for them to add to their order book for the 2025 to 2027 timeline while we are still in a buyers market.

Having seen the recent NK meltdown, they probably will not end up expanding as fast as they announced. Being adequately staffed is as important as having large order books.

Based on what I've seen, I'd say JetBlue will be adequately staffed for a few more A320s. Getting 4 or 5 used A320/A321s would be a solid move if they want to finish their NYC buildup sooner without leaving behind other focus cities. Again, this depends on how JetBlue board views the covid resurgence.
 
airbazar
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Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Mon Aug 16, 2021 1:47 pm

RvA wrote:
airbazar wrote:
I think the brand recognition and having POS in both directions is severely overstated.
Brand recognition comes with time. When DY started TATL flights hardly anyone here had ever heard of them. That didn't seem to hurt them, why? Because no one calls up the airline's ticket office to book a plane ticket anymore. If it's on Kayak, or Orbitz, etc.. people will come.
Being able to sell on both sides of the Atlantic is also mostly moot. They are a U.S. carrier and like most or all U.S. carriers their POS will be predominantly in the U.S. which IIRC is still the largest air market in the World by a very long margin.


Routes like JFK-LHR you will want (maybe even need) both POS to sell. B6s competitors do just this.
Brand recognition is definitely important. You mention DY as an example but is DY still flying? No one books by phone, but people DO shop around and if the prices are similar, do you think most will book B6 over BA or Virgin if they are British? Or DL/AA/UA if they are American? The latter, more likely as people at least know who B6 are, and maybe even like them or prefer them. But if you already have some AA miles, or DL etc. and the prices are fine, why would you book B6?


DY had far worse problems than lack of brand recognition in the U.S. They never had a problem filling up seats.
POS is very heavily weighed towards the home market, always. There is nothing special about JFK-LHR. Most people who travel, have to return somehow :D
In the US-UK market and JFK-LHR market there is significantly more U.S. originating traffic than UK originating traffic. B6's biggest challenge is not the POS. Their biggest challenge is slots. IIRC these first few slots are not even permanent.
To answer your questions: Probably not if they are British. Possibly yes if they are American unless they have some sort of loyalty towards DL/AA/UA. But you're forgetting that B6 themselves also has a very large customer base that has been flying DL/AA/UA/BA/VS specifically because B6 doesn't. Those customers will be coming back to B6.

tphuang wrote:
I think we are too early in their TATL expansion to look past JFK & BOS. JFK/BOS-London + Rest of British Isles + Paris, that probably would take all the LRs they have on order. We'd already be in 2024 before they take their first A321XLR.

Agree. But if they decide to serve any other airport beyond JFK/BOS, my money is on EWR. It just makes sense to cover both NYC airports. And I could see them serve DUB with non-LR MINT equipment.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:27 pm

tphuang wrote:
I think we are too early in their TATL expansion to look past JFK & BOS. JFK/BOS-London + Rest of British Isles + Paris, that probably would take all the LRs they have on order. We'd already be in 2024 before they take their first A321XLR.

After that, it really will depend on how the initial flying are coming along. I see JFK-BOS-London/Paris as markets they have to serve. Anything beyond that is depending on how various markets are working out. Maybe they will use XLR for south America or JFK-Africa. There are so many markets where XLR would work in summer time, but doesn't work during winter time.

I see something like EWR-LON more likely than BDL-LON.


100 percent
 
F27500
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Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Mon Aug 16, 2021 4:18 pm

Really hope transatlantic is a success for JetBlue. I'd love to see them take the next step and go up a size too .. maybe A330?
 
airbazar
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Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Mon Aug 16, 2021 4:39 pm

tphuang wrote:
I see JFK-BOS-London/Paris as markets they have to serve. Anything beyond that is depending on how various markets are working out.

I forgot to add this. I don't think CDG is a must. It's a large market but is very seasonal.
IMO they should start with high yield business markets such as ZRH and MUC. That would make them real disruptors.
 
speedbird2263
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Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Mon Aug 16, 2021 5:10 pm

F27500 wrote:
Really hope transatlantic is a success for JetBlue. I'd love to see them take the next step and go up a size too .. maybe A330?


If I were a betting man, I’d wager upguaging to a more capable and still efficient aircraft(I.e. wide body) is a when more so than an if for B6. I see the LRs and XLRs as pathfinders and appropriate still for thinner routes. I’m however a little weary of their premium heavy configurations and lack of any sort of substantial cargo carrying capability for Deep South America/Africa and elsewhere, hence my opinion on possible future WBs. Just my 2 cents FWIW.
 
tphuang
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Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Mon Aug 16, 2021 5:51 pm

airbazar wrote:
tphuang wrote:
I see JFK-BOS-London/Paris as markets they have to serve. Anything beyond that is depending on how various markets are working out.

I forgot to add this. I don't think CDG is a must. It's a large market but is very seasonal.
IMO they should start with high yield business markets such as ZRH and MUC. That would make them real disruptors.


That's a good argument. RH has pretty consistently said Paris as their next market. So, that's why I think they regard it as a must serve. Keep in mind that there are a lot of business connection between NYC and Paris.

F27500 wrote:
Really hope transatlantic is a success for JetBlue. I'd love to see them take the next step and go up a size too .. maybe A330?

By the time they are ready to buy a widebody, I don't think A330 would be a meaningful option anymore. It's also in their interest to not limit themselves to just Airbus product.
 
Abeam79
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Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Mon Aug 16, 2021 6:58 pm

F27500 wrote:
Really hope transatlantic is a success for JetBlue. I'd love to see them take the next step and go up a size too .. maybe A330?


Jetblue historically hasn't gone into markets that are too fringe on the side of betting. They are very well calculated bets, and that worked out very well for them in the past and most of the upper management planning team have experience working in the past at legacy carriers. Now when you stack up all the other "LLC's/premium/hybrid" like small point to point carriers outside the legacy airlines flying transatlantic that haven't been able to hack it in the past, they all lacked the thing jetblue has, a strong marketing brand and a sizable network on the US side and a better hybrid product akin to network legacy carriers. Jetblue has basically morphed into a much more cost efficient/lower cost model of a full service legacy carrier. They also have their 2 biggest hubs in the largest POS markets to Europe which helps alot. But I do think at some point when they have matured the markets and covid is behind us and most o the world population is vaccinated, you'll see global demand launch like we did in the states this summer if not even moreso, and at that point, if they can't get more slots, they may have to acquire widebodies to increase the ASM's to meet demand.
 
LX321
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Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Mon Aug 16, 2021 7:19 pm

tphuang wrote:
airbazar wrote:
tphuang wrote:
I see JFK-BOS-London/Paris as markets they have to serve. Anything beyond that is depending on how various markets are working out.

I forgot to add this. I don't think CDG is a must. It's a large market but is very seasonal.
IMO they should start with high yield business markets such as ZRH and MUC. That would make them real disruptors.


That's a good argument. RH has pretty consistently said Paris as their next market. So, that's why I think they regard it as a must serve. Keep in mind that there are a lot of business connection between NYC and Paris.

F27500 wrote:
Really hope transatlantic is a success for JetBlue. I'd love to see them take the next step and go up a size too .. maybe A330?

By the time they are ready to buy a widebody, I don't think A330 would be a meaningful option anymore. It's also in their interest to not limit themselves to just Airbus product.


So all other one supplier airlines are not limiting themselves?
 
RvA
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Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Mon Aug 16, 2021 8:23 pm

airbazar wrote:
tphuang wrote:
I see JFK-BOS-London/Paris as markets they have to serve. Anything beyond that is depending on how various markets are working out.

I forgot to add this. I don't think CDG is a must. It's a large market but is very seasonal.
IMO they should start with high yield business markets such as ZRH and MUC. That would make them real disruptors.


ZRH won’t work, ask AA :)
 
GSP psgr
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Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Mon Aug 16, 2021 8:44 pm

As far as beyond Paris.....my next two guesses would be Amsterdam and Madrid, which both have solid leisure demand mixed with at least some business traffic.
 
FlyHPN
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Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Mon Aug 16, 2021 8:45 pm

LX321 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
airbazar wrote:
I forgot to add this. I don't think CDG is a must. It's a large market but is very seasonal.
IMO they should start with high yield business markets such as ZRH and MUC. That would make them real disruptors.


That's a good argument. RH has pretty consistently said Paris as their next market. So, that's why I think they regard it as a must serve. Keep in mind that there are a lot of business connection between NYC and Paris.

F27500 wrote:
Really hope transatlantic is a success for JetBlue. I'd love to see them take the next step and go up a size too .. maybe A330?

By the time they are ready to buy a widebody, I don't think A330 would be a meaningful option anymore. It's also in their interest to not limit themselves to just Airbus product.


So all other one supplier airlines are not limiting themselves?


The argument is not that Airbus cannot have the business. The argument is that they should run a real campaign and see what both A & B (and maybe even lessors of returned craft) can bring to the table. The reality is who knows how long Airbus is going to want to produce 2x A330s/month, and the 359 is a large bird to start a wide body journey with.
 
airbazar
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Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Mon Aug 16, 2021 10:22 pm

RvA wrote:
airbazar wrote:
tphuang wrote:
I see JFK-BOS-London/Paris as markets they have to serve. Anything beyond that is depending on how various markets are working out.

I forgot to add this. I don't think CDG is a must. It's a large market but is very seasonal.
IMO they should start with high yield business markets such as ZRH and MUC. That would make them real disruptors.


ZRH won’t work, ask AA :)


And somehow the route lasted for 31 years from JFK until it was moved to PHL
AA chose not to bother competing on the route from JFK and moved the flight to PHL rather than improve the product from JFK. B6 has a product that is competitive with LX, something AA never had. The biggest issue for JFK-ZRH is that they will need the XLR because the LR doesn't have the range in Winter.
However, ZRH may be a route that actually works best from BOS rather than JFK because of the large pharma industry in Boston. As I understand it the Pharma businesses in the NY area are predominantly in New Jersey.
 
tphuang
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Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Mon Aug 16, 2021 10:43 pm

Another review on A321LR economy product

https://paxex.aero/jetblue-london-heath ... w-economy/
Looks really good to me. Great food standard by Y standard and seems like a lot of IFE options. Also more amenities in Y than you would normally expect for TATL (I normally get nothing in Y)

In the end of the day, a lot of people do pick based on product and this looks great.
 
AMALH747430
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Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Tue Aug 17, 2021 3:04 am

I’ve read several reviews. It looks like the very well done economy product is where B6 really shines. Don’t get me wrong, the business cabin looks great but it’s one among many good products. The economy looks a cut above as it HAS to be. B6 HAS to have a product that is over and above the competition to make themselves competitive. AA/BA, DL/VS and UA have (in non pandemic times) many more frequencies to pick from. B6 isn’t going to get the slots to offer that kind of schedule so B6 is going to have to have a killer product (which it looks like they do) to get people to pick their flight over the vast array of choices on the major alliance carriers.
 
RvA
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Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Tue Aug 17, 2021 4:30 am

So what is the key selling point for economy class, an extra inch over most (standard) economy seats across the Atlantic?
For business class is a supposedly lower price the selling point? More competition is better, but I am still wondering what the hype is about.
 
JoseSalazar
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Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Tue Aug 17, 2021 4:35 am

RvA wrote:
So what is the key selling point for economy class, an extra inch over most (standard) economy seats across the Atlantic?
For business class is a supposedly lower price the selling point? More competition is better, but I am still wondering what the hype is about.

More legroom, good food and booze (free), fast WiFi (free). Nice interior appearance and comfort. And good fares. And a decent blanket and amenity kit. It’s not a singular selling point. It’s a whole package/nice overall experience.
 
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GCT64
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Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Tue Aug 17, 2021 10:32 am

airbazar wrote:
POS is very heavily weighed towards the home market, always. There is nothing special about JFK-LHR. Most people who travel, have to return somehow :D
In the US-UK market and JFK-LHR market there is significantly more U.S. originating traffic than UK originating traffic.


I realise I have significantly cut down your words, but just wanted to address one specific point, I believe the originating traffic is actually roughly even.
Quote from an article in the Independent a few days ago:

"In 2019, nearly four million Britons travelled to the US, according to the UK’s Foreign Office, while 4.5 million visits were made from the US to the UK, according to figures from VisitBritain."
 
tphuang
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Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Tue Aug 17, 2021 11:40 am

US-UK market could be quite even in POS, but NYC-LHR could be quite NYC dominant. A lot of British people are probably going directly to Florida or California or other places in US. New Yorkers are probably mostly going to London.

Aside from this, most of the corporations have big offices in both NY?C and London. Just think about how many big banks have business travel between their UK/US offices. In those cases, people will have to pick an airline that's within certain threshold of the cheapest J fare. As long as B6 is an option in the corporate travel portal, then some people from British side will pick them due to corporate policy. B6 just needs to make sure that it has enough of a schedule to be an option for most customers. I think the % of people that would not consider B6 due to ffp is smaller than what people are making it out to be.

For business class is a supposedly lower price the selling point? More competition is better, but I am still wondering what the hype is about.

Mint studio (2 per flight) is probably the best product on JFK-LHR. here is a review of mint suit.
https://thepointsguy.com/news/mint-experience-lhr-jfk/

The biggest problem seems to be a lack of lounge. But that should get resolved sometimes this year.
 
airbazar
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Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Tue Aug 17, 2021 12:02 pm

GCT64 wrote:
airbazar wrote:
POS is very heavily weighed towards the home market, always. There is nothing special about JFK-LHR. Most people who travel, have to return somehow :D
In the US-UK market and JFK-LHR market there is significantly more U.S. originating traffic than UK originating traffic.


I realise I have significantly cut down your words, but just wanted to address one specific point, I believe the originating traffic is actually roughly even.
Quote from an article in the Independent a few days ago:

"In 2019, nearly four million Britons travelled to the US, according to the UK’s Foreign Office, while 4.5 million visits were made from the US to the UK, according to figures from VisitBritain."


And half of them end up at Disney World it seems :rotfl:
All joking aside that surprises me. I would have expected a lot more Americans than that visiting the UK.
 
RvA
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Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Wed Aug 18, 2021 7:04 pm

JoseSalazar wrote:
RvA wrote:
So what is the key selling point for economy class, an extra inch over most (standard) economy seats across the Atlantic?
For business class is a supposedly lower price the selling point? More competition is better, but I am still wondering what the hype is about.

More legroom, good food and booze (free), fast WiFi (free). Nice interior appearance and comfort. And good fares. And a decent blanket and amenity kit. It’s not a singular selling point. It’s a whole package/nice overall experience.


Everything you said free in economy? At lower fares? Then I definitely think they won’t be around long. Haha! Unless they pay their crew less than Ryanair.
 
11C
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Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Wed Aug 18, 2021 7:14 pm

RvA wrote:
JoseSalazar wrote:
RvA wrote:
So what is the key selling point for economy class, an extra inch over most (standard) economy seats across the Atlantic?
For business class is a supposedly lower price the selling point? More competition is better, but I am still wondering what the hype is about.

More legroom, good food and booze (free), fast WiFi (free). Nice interior appearance and comfort. And good fares. And a decent blanket and amenity kit. It’s not a singular selling point. It’s a whole package/nice overall experience.


Everything you said free in economy? At lower fares? Then I definitely think they won’t be around long. Haha! Unless they pay their crew less than Ryanair.

I’d like to frame this, and put it up alongside some other famous predictions. Haha!
 
RvA
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Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Wed Aug 18, 2021 7:22 pm

11C wrote:
RvA wrote:
JoseSalazar wrote:
More legroom, good food and booze (free), fast WiFi (free). Nice interior appearance and comfort. And good fares. And a decent blanket and amenity kit. It’s not a singular selling point. It’s a whole package/nice overall experience.


Everything you said free in economy? At lower fares? Then I definitely think they won’t be around long. Haha! Unless they pay their crew less than Ryanair.

I’d like to frame this, and put it up alongside some other famous predictions. Haha!


I’d love to be proven wrong. I actually want them to do well. Frame it, let’s see in a few years what happened.
 
Vicenza
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Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Wed Aug 18, 2021 7:25 pm

RvA wrote:
JoseSalazar wrote:
RvA wrote:
So what is the key selling point for economy class, an extra inch over most (standard) economy seats across the Atlantic?
For business class is a supposedly lower price the selling point? More competition is better, but I am still wondering what the hype is about.

More legroom, good food and booze (free), fast WiFi (free). Nice interior appearance and comfort. And good fares. And a decent blanket and amenity kit. It’s not a singular selling point. It’s a whole package/nice overall experience.


Everything you said free in economy? At lower fares? Then I definitely think they won’t be around long. Haha! Unless they pay their crew less than Ryanair.


But, interestingly, you are deliberately twisting his words. You asked what selling points(s) were for economy and he answered. At no point did he state they were all offered., or by JetBlue. Nor, in fact do I think you know much about Ryanair. Why make stuff up?
 
tphuang
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Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Wed Aug 18, 2021 7:41 pm

RvA wrote:
JoseSalazar wrote:
RvA wrote:
So what is the key selling point for economy class, an extra inch over most (standard) economy seats across the Atlantic?
For business class is a supposedly lower price the selling point? More competition is better, but I am still wondering what the hype is about.

More legroom, good food and booze (free), fast WiFi (free). Nice interior appearance and comfort. And good fares. And a decent blanket and amenity kit. It’s not a singular selling point. It’s a whole package/nice overall experience.


Everything you said free in economy? At lower fares? Then I definitely think they won’t be around long. Haha! Unless they pay their crew less than Ryanair.


If you take a look at this review. Things they offer currently in economy for free:
- 32 inch pitch and 18.4 inch width seat
- real blanket
- 2 amenity kits with masks, ear plus, dental kit, socks and moisturizers
- Real solid main meal with multiple courses + dessert
- Free Booze
- A breakfast before landing
- free high speed wifi
- 5 live tv channel on seatback IFE + 181 movies and 111 TV shows

here is a description of the business class from TPG
https://thepointsguy.com/reviews/jetblu ... lr-london/
according to the reviewer
The airline had a larger selection of new releases than I’ve seen on other carriers recently, so there’s a good chance you’ll be able to find something that you haven’t seen.


I think their Y product is probably too luxurious, especially the meal service. Meal service could be a point of cost cutting. Maybe the amenity kit won't have real blanket in the future. As for the hard product and IFE, I don't see that changing. They have it on mint domestically.

The business hard product looks great. Once they get lounge situation resolved, it will be even better.

If JetBlue products are reading this, please fix your IT issues!
 
RvA
Posts: 525
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:37 pm

Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Wed Aug 18, 2021 7:47 pm

Vicenza wrote:
RvA wrote:
JoseSalazar wrote:
More legroom, good food and booze (free), fast WiFi (free). Nice interior appearance and comfort. And good fares. And a decent blanket and amenity kit. It’s not a singular selling point. It’s a whole package/nice overall experience.


Everything you said free in economy? At lower fares? Then I definitely think they won’t be around long. Haha! Unless they pay their crew less than Ryanair.


But, interestingly, you are deliberately twisting his words. You asked what selling points(s) were for economy and he answered. At no point did he state they were all offered., or by JetBlue. Nor, in fact do I think you know much about Ryanair. Why make stuff up?


Ok… so I asked for the selling points, but his answer were not the selling points, or even for JetBlue. Not sure what to do with that then.
 
RvA
Posts: 525
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:37 pm

Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Wed Aug 18, 2021 7:53 pm

tphuang wrote:
RvA wrote:
JoseSalazar wrote:
More legroom, good food and booze (free), fast WiFi (free). Nice interior appearance and comfort. And good fares. And a decent blanket and amenity kit. It’s not a singular selling point. It’s a whole package/nice overall experience.


Everything you said free in economy? At lower fares? Then I definitely think they won’t be around long. Haha! Unless they pay their crew less than Ryanair.


If you take a look at this review. Things they offer currently in economy for free:
- 32 inch pitch and 18.4 inch width seat
- real blanket
- 2 amenity kits with masks, ear plus, dental kit, socks and moisturizers
- Real solid main meal with multiple courses + dessert
- Free Booze
- A breakfast before landing
- free high speed wifi
- 5 live tv channel on seatback IFE + 181 movies and 111 TV shows

here is a description of the business class from TPG
https://thepointsguy.com/reviews/jetblu ... lr-london/
according to the reviewer
The airline had a larger selection of new releases than I’ve seen on other carriers recently, so there’s a good chance you’ll be able to find something that you haven’t seen.


I think their Y product is probably too luxurious, especially the meal service. Meal service could be a point of cost cutting. Maybe the amenity kit won't have real blanket in the future. As for the hard product and IFE, I don't see that changing. They have it on mint domestically.

The business hard product looks great. Once they get lounge situation resolved, it will be even better.

If JetBlue products are reading this, please fix your IT issues!


Thanks, that’s helpful. And makes the previous post I was quoted in even less sensible.
That is indeed a very solid offering, but as I mentioned before (and you also state) I believe that is too much, especially if the intent is to undercut the established competitors on price. I see that as high costs and a tight margin. I’m sure an A321 offers fantastic economics, but what year round load factors, at good yield, will be needed to make this profitable. In low season you can often find fares where you can see the fare itself is only $1, and all you’re paying are the YR and taxes. I suspect B6 might struggle to make this a financial success, as mentioned I hope they can manage it but unless their crew etc. is cheap (hence my earlier Ryanair mention) and they can keep their yields and load factors up I can’t see it working out.
 
CobaltScar
Posts: 867
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:30 pm

Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Wed Aug 18, 2021 8:24 pm

RvA wrote:
JoseSalazar wrote:
RvA wrote:
So what is the key selling point for economy class, an extra inch over most (standard) economy seats across the Atlantic?
For business class is a supposedly lower price the selling point? More competition is better, but I am still wondering what the hype is about.

More legroom, good food and booze (free), fast WiFi (free). Nice interior appearance and comfort. And good fares. And a decent blanket and amenity kit. It’s not a singular selling point. It’s a whole package/nice overall experience.


Everything you said free in economy? At lower fares? Then I definitely think they won’t be around long. Haha! Unless they pay their crew less than Ryanair.


Like I said elsewhere, its funded by the charity of the Flight Attendants. They do an insane amount of work especially on these new TL flights. They have some of the worst work rules in the industry and have not gotten a raise since 2018. I shudder to think how poorly they are now paid thanks to inflation.
 
tphuang
Posts: 6874
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Wed Aug 18, 2021 8:44 pm

RvA wrote:
tphuang wrote:
RvA wrote:

Everything you said free in economy? At lower fares? Then I definitely think they won’t be around long. Haha! Unless they pay their crew less than Ryanair.


If you take a look at this review. Things they offer currently in economy for free:
- 32 inch pitch and 18.4 inch width seat
- real blanket
- 2 amenity kits with masks, ear plus, dental kit, socks and moisturizers
- Real solid main meal with multiple courses + dessert
- Free Booze
- A breakfast before landing
- free high speed wifi
- 5 live tv channel on seatback IFE + 181 movies and 111 TV shows

here is a description of the business class from TPG
https://thepointsguy.com/reviews/jetblu ... lr-london/
according to the reviewer
The airline had a larger selection of new releases than I’ve seen on other carriers recently, so there’s a good chance you’ll be able to find something that you haven’t seen.


I think their Y product is probably too luxurious, especially the meal service. Meal service could be a point of cost cutting. Maybe the amenity kit won't have real blanket in the future. As for the hard product and IFE, I don't see that changing. They have it on mint domestically.

The business hard product looks great. Once they get lounge situation resolved, it will be even better.

If JetBlue products are reading this, please fix your IT issues!


Thanks, that’s helpful. And makes the previous post I was quoted in even less sensible.
That is indeed a very solid offering, but as I mentioned before (and you also state) I believe that is too much, especially if the intent is to undercut the established competitors on price. I see that as high costs and a tight margin. I’m sure an A321 offers fantastic economics, but what year round load factors, at good yield, will be needed to make this profitable. In low season you can often find fares where you can see the fare itself is only $1, and all you’re paying are the YR and taxes. I suspect B6 might struggle to make this a financial success, as mentioned I hope they can manage it but unless their crew etc. is cheap (hence my earlier Ryanair mention) and they can keep their yields and load factors up I can’t see it working out.


JetBlue is not here to undercut legacies in pricing in Y. It will undercut legacies in pricing in J. People here in NYC and Boston will pay more to fly on them in Y. Since they have a fraction of seat to sell compared to their competitors, they should be able to get higher yield in y cabin. You have to ask yourself the question of why someone in NYC would fly AA/BA over B6 unless they are a loyal OW ff or AA/BA is pricing a lot cheaper?

As for cost, they do have a 20 to 25% cost advantage over the big 3. They don't have all the legacy costs like large pension plans, huge debt burdens, a lot of fleet types, lounges and alliance costs. They also lower cost by utilizing their aircraft more aggressively than anyone else. So, they've always had the best hard product in y class, but also a cost advantage. That's what has allowed them to do well in NYC. they get around the same yield as DL/AA in NYC, but their costs are a lot lower.
 
JoseSalazar
Posts: 620
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:18 am

Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:01 pm

RvA wrote:
Vicenza wrote:
RvA wrote:

Everything you said free in economy? At lower fares? Then I definitely think they won’t be around long. Haha! Unless they pay their crew less than Ryanair.


But, interestingly, you are deliberately twisting his words. You asked what selling points(s) were for economy and he answered. At no point did he state they were all offered., or by JetBlue. Nor, in fact do I think you know much about Ryanair. Why make stuff up?


Ok… so I asked for the selling points, but his answer were not the selling points, or even for JetBlue. Not sure what to do with that then.

My points are exactly the selling points, and for JetBlue. Show me something I said that is not a highlight of JetBlue’s coach tatl offering.
 
11C
Posts: 346
Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:25 pm

Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:33 pm

CobaltScar wrote:
RvA wrote:
JoseSalazar wrote:
More legroom, good food and booze (free), fast WiFi (free). Nice interior appearance and comfort. And good fares. And a decent blanket and amenity kit. It’s not a singular selling point. It’s a whole package/nice overall experience.


Everything you said free in economy? At lower fares? Then I definitely think they won’t be around long. Haha! Unless they pay their crew less than Ryanair.


Like I said elsewhere, its funded by the charity of the Flight Attendants. They do an insane amount of work especially on these new TL flights. They have some of the worst work rules in the industry and have not gotten a raise since 2018. I shudder to think how poorly they are now paid thanks to inflation.


We really shouldn’t keep going back to this in unrelated threads. I agree, the timing was bad, they turned down their first TA, and then a pandemic struck. All very bad luck for a first contract, but not charity.
 
Brianpr3
Posts: 79
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:34 pm

Re: Jetblue Network Thread - 2021

Thu Aug 19, 2021 5:28 am

Wonder what good would it be for jbu to get in line for a320 Neo's to replace their older 320's
 
JoseSalazar
Posts: 620
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:18 am

Re: Jetblue Network Thread - 2021

Thu Aug 19, 2021 5:34 am

Brianpr3 wrote:
Wonder what good would it be for jbu to get in line for a320 Neo's to replace their older 320's

Unless they came across a good deal for some used ones or something, doubtful that happens. Maybe if a 320.5NEO happens. Barring either of those, 223/225/321NEO is it for their future NB orders for the next 10 years imo.
 
PITFlyer330
Posts: 262
Joined: Fri May 14, 2021 4:56 am

Re: Jetblue Network Thread - 2021

Thu Aug 19, 2021 5:35 am

Brianpr3 wrote:
Wonder what good would it be for jbu to get in line for a320 Neo's to replace their older 320's


a220s might as well do the trick
 
RvA
Posts: 525
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:37 pm

Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Thu Aug 19, 2021 5:59 am

JoseSalazar wrote:
RvA wrote:
Vicenza wrote:

But, interestingly, you are deliberately twisting his words. You asked what selling points(s) were for economy and he answered. At no point did he state they were all offered., or by JetBlue. Nor, in fact do I think you know much about Ryanair. Why make stuff up?


Ok… so I asked for the selling points, but his answer were not the selling points, or even for JetBlue. Not sure what to do with that then.

My points are exactly the selling points, and for JetBlue. Show me something I said that is not a highlight of JetBlue’s coach tatl offering.


Right
 
JoseSalazar
Posts: 620
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:18 am

Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Thu Aug 19, 2021 6:24 am

RvA wrote:
JoseSalazar wrote:
RvA wrote:

Ok… so I asked for the selling points, but his answer were not the selling points, or even for JetBlue. Not sure what to do with that then.

My points are exactly the selling points, and for JetBlue. Show me something I said that is not a highlight of JetBlue’s coach tatl offering.


Right


JoseSalazar wrote:
RvA wrote:
So what is the key selling point for economy class, an extra inch over most (standard) economy seats across the Atlantic?
For business class is a supposedly lower price the selling point? More competition is better, but I am still wondering what the hype is about.

More legroom, good food and booze (free), fast WiFi (free). Nice interior appearance and comfort. And good fares. And a decent blanket and amenity kit. It’s not a singular selling point. It’s a whole package/nice overall experience.


And here’s what tphuang wrote:
If you take a look at this review. Things they offer currently in economy for free:
- 32 inch pitch and 18.4 inch width seat
- real blanket
- 2 amenity kits with masks, ear plus, dental kit, socks and moisturizers
- Real solid main meal with multiple courses + dessert
- Free Booze
- A breakfast before landing
- free high speed wifi
- 5 live tv channel on seatback IFE + 181 movies and 111 TV shows


You asked what the selling point of JetBlue tatl economy was. I listed a slew of things. Someone else said what I listed wasn’t about JetBlue. Tphuang listed everything I listed (with a couple more items) and you seemed to like his response. What am I missing?
 
trueblew
Posts: 342
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:16 pm

Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:38 pm

JoseSalazar wrote:
RvA wrote:
JoseSalazar wrote:
My points are exactly the selling points, and for JetBlue. Show me something I said that is not a highlight of JetBlue’s coach tatl offering.


Right


JoseSalazar wrote:
RvA wrote:
So what is the key selling point for economy class, an extra inch over most (standard) economy seats across the Atlantic?
For business class is a supposedly lower price the selling point? More competition is better, but I am still wondering what the hype is about.

More legroom, good food and booze (free), fast WiFi (free). Nice interior appearance and comfort. And good fares. And a decent blanket and amenity kit. It’s not a singular selling point. It’s a whole package/nice overall experience.


And here’s what tphuang wrote:
If you take a look at this review. Things they offer currently in economy for free:
- 32 inch pitch and 18.4 inch width seat
- real blanket
- 2 amenity kits with masks, ear plus, dental kit, socks and moisturizers
- Real solid main meal with multiple courses + dessert
- Free Booze
- A breakfast before landing
- free high speed wifi
- 5 live tv channel on seatback IFE + 181 movies and 111 TV shows


You asked what the selling point of JetBlue tatl economy was. I listed a slew of things. Someone else said what I listed wasn’t about JetBlue. Tphuang listed everything I listed (with a couple more items) and you seemed to like his response. What am I missing?


This RvA chap sounds clueless. Don't waste your time. I found your reply to succinctly answer the question.
 
trueblew
Posts: 342
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:16 pm

Re: Jetblue Network Thread - 2021

Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:42 pm

There must be deep discounts used A32X aircraft overseas with the greater impact to air travel many locations have had due to Covid. I'm surprised B6 haven't secured some jets. They already have a cabin restyling line going and a number (11?) of current jets that won't be receiving the mod so they could run the acquired airframes through.
 
airbazar
Posts: 10623
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: JetBlue Officially Launching LHR/LGW

Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:53 pm

RvA wrote:
Thanks, that’s helpful. And makes the previous post I was quoted in even less sensible.
That is indeed a very solid offering, but as I mentioned before (and you also state) I believe that is too much, especially if the intent is to undercut the established competitors on price. I see that as high costs and a tight margin.

Their business model is not to undercut anyone on price in Y. I don't know where you live or who you typically fly with but it sounds to me like you're not familiar with JetBlue. I live in Boston and I fly B6 occasionally (more so lately because they seem to have maintained a higher amount of flying during the Pandemic), and B6 is NEVER the cheapest option in Y.
Their Mint product was significantly cheaper when it was introduced and that led other airlines to bring down their prices and it's possible that the same may happen in the TATL market. B6 has a very strong and loyal following in their home markets and that is their bread&butter. Their entire business model can be summarized by simply saying "they fly to destinations that New Yorkers and Bostonians want to fly to".
 
tphuang
Posts: 6874
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Jetblue Network Thread - 2021

Thu Aug 19, 2021 3:16 pm

Looks like the 3rd A321LR got delivered today.
https://aibfamily.flights/A320/10619

Another A220-300 is going through test flights and should be delivered soon.
https://aibfamily.flights/A220/55120

I wonder if JetBlue is seeing weaker demand due to Delta variant and getting conservative with fleet planning. It seems like the used A320 market should be a really buyers market right now.

I also wonder if they will do any cabin refresh on the E90s that are staying around longer. If they are sticking around for 5 to 10 more years, it's well worth the investment.
 
User avatar
VS4ever
Posts: 2674
Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2004 10:03 am

Re: Jetblue Network Thread - 2021

Thu Aug 19, 2021 3:31 pm

tphuang wrote:
Looks like the 3rd A321LR got delivered today.
https://aibfamily.flights/A320/10619

Another A220-300 is going through test flights and should be delivered soon.
https://aibfamily.flights/A220/55120

I wonder if JetBlue is seeing weaker demand due to Delta variant and getting conservative with fleet planning. It seems like the used A320 market should be a really buyers market right now.

I also wonder if they will do any cabin refresh on the E90s that are staying around longer. If they are sticking around for 5 to 10 more years, it's well worth the investment.


It may also be a factor of timing just as much as demand. I don't think they want immediate investment in leases and cabin refreshes for bringing 320's into the fleet given Delta variant and going into the winter months. They could of course be looking at it without pulling the trigger.

The cabin mods they are doing on the 320's are taking a month or so to complete and you would think they would want the aircraft ready to go in the March/April time-frame for the 22 summer season and allow expansion of the NEA agreement. So maybe they negotiate, pull the trigger in December if they financials look good enough, gives them 3-4 months to pull them out of storage, get them over here and checked out. Still a significant investment, but DL seems to have done this sort of thing very well, no reason why B6 couldn't do the same.

I think they own 30 E190's if memory serves. If they ran through 5 at a time like they are doing with the 320's (don't know if this is even possible, so don't shoot me), you are looking at 6 months solid to get them upgraded. But remember the ROI on this could be lower with no extra seats unless they can use slimline and do it that way. So maybe they could go to 104 or 108, instead of the current 100, but again, don't know if that's feasible. if they can. a 5-10 year ROI on that might be worth doing as you note.
 
Abeam79
Posts: 445
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 3:16 am

Re: Jetblue Network Thread - 2021

Thu Aug 19, 2021 5:50 pm

I don't think the E190's need the overhaul the A320's have been through. A nice cleanup maybe replace the ife and seats, no need to install mood lighting is more for longer flights to help with time lapses, etc. They are mostly for short haul. Sub one hour flight all one needs is decent wifi and a decent service.
 
JoseSalazar
Posts: 620
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:18 am

Re: Jetblue Network Thread - 2021

Thu Aug 19, 2021 6:19 pm

Abeam79 wrote:
I don't think the E190's need the overhaul the A320's have been through. A nice cleanup maybe replace the ife and seats, no need to install mood lighting is more for longer flights to help with time lapses, etc. They are mostly for short haul. Sub one hour flight all one needs is decent wifi and a decent service.

They look ratty and old…even the youngest ones. JetBlue wants to have a semi-consistent brand image and product. They tried a small refresh on 5 planes but it didn’t look good (old mixed with the refresh clashed) so they are back to the drawing board. If they keep the 30 another 10+ years, which is quite possible, they need to do something decent with them. I wouldn’t be surprised to see at least the 30 end up looking like the 220s on the inside with LED interior lighting, whiter panels, cleaner looking carpeting, seats/IFE similar to the 220 seats, power outlets, etc.
 
Runway28L
Posts: 2132
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:35 pm

Re: Jetblue Network Thread - 2021

Thu Aug 19, 2021 6:26 pm

Even if the E190s got a refresh with a product similar to the A321s and Phase 1 A320s, I think it would be a significant improvement. Other than the comfy seats, generous legroom and big windows, the E190s have lost some of their charm IMO. All of my most recent flights on them have had a combination of cracked PTV screens, broken tray tables and arm rests, inop wifi and dirty seatbacks. It makes for a bad impression, especially for flying out of an all-E190 station.

It’s crazy to think those current interiors lasting as long as 2030.
 
tphuang
Posts: 6874
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Jetblue Network Thread - 2021

Thu Aug 19, 2021 11:52 pm

Another 10+ years of E90 is a scary thought. So far, they've said that they will start to return leased E90s in 2023. Which in JetBlue land means, if the lessors offer a good deal, those will stick around longer than 2023 to 2025. Given where the rest of E90/95 market is right now, lessors will probably offer them really cheap lease extension. Sure, return some of the earlier ones that are probably getting too costly to maintain. Maybe keep 40 to 50 around until 2027 and start taking them out of fleet after they reach 20 years of service.

With that level of service remaining, I think some cabin refresh is badly needed. For the ones they are keeping around longer, maybe they can just do a small refresh.

At this point, if a lessor is willing to lease E90 or E95 in good condition for next to nothing, JetBlue should think about it. Gotta take advantage of the current market condition. There has to be some newer E90/E95s out there in good condition that nobody wants.
 
CobaltScar
Posts: 867
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:30 pm

Re: Jetblue Network Thread - 2021

Fri Aug 20, 2021 3:44 pm

I for one hope jetBlue does take on more E190s. And I hear the 30 E190s that are owned will have some sort of refresh.
 
User avatar
jfklganyc
Posts: 6667
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

Re: Jetblue Network Thread - 2021

Fri Aug 20, 2021 6:54 pm

Rumor around school house says bookings are way down due to Delta variant.

Take that for what its worth.

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