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qf789
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Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:59 pm

Welcome to Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021. Please continue to add your comments below

Link to last thread

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1437931
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MajMattMason
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Thu Dec 31, 2020 2:34 pm

Here’s to a great New Year of talking everything Amazon and airplanes!! :champagne:
 
autopiloton
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Thu Dec 31, 2020 6:05 pm

N381AN going through Amazon acceptance will be introduced to the network without a Prime Air livery. Amazon has requested it be available sooner than originally planned so the paint shop visit date is being pushed back. Will they still change the tail number though? Or wait until after paint? Would be interesting to see an Amazon tail number on a still partial American Air paint job.

If I remember right this would be similar to N409AZ. However, they at least painted it all white before going in the network. I could see painting the tail and having it all grey.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Thu Dec 31, 2020 6:27 pm

autopiloton wrote:
N381AN going through Amazon acceptance will be introduced to the network without a Prime Air livery. Amazon has requested it be available sooner than originally planned so the paint shop visit date is being pushed back. Will they still change the tail number though? Or wait until after paint? Would be interesting to see an Amazon tail number on a still partial American Air paint job.

If I remember right this would be similar to N409AZ. However, they at least painted it all white before going in the network. I could see painting the tail and having it all grey.


Interesting. That's really-good scoop!!

Pretty much the same idea as last year. 409AZ was an ex-DL ship (1501P) that finished with conversion on like 12/15/19. It came from TLV with the green painted over in white but otherwise clearly ex-DL. Somewhere, CAM got some white over the whole thing (ILN maybe?), put it through conformity in like 2 weeks, and ran it until February 10, 2020, when it was then sent to ROW for a proper paint job.

Besides 381AN (which is already on the ATI certificate), it seems that 395AN is about 2 weeks into conformity at ILN, which means that it could be in the air quickly, too, if they wanted to fly it as-is. We'll see whether it heads off for paint soon, or not.

I'm guessing that if 381AN is going through Amazon acceptance, they will change the tail number, in part because that's what they did with 409AZ last year. Otherwise, they could just start running it tomorrow in Amazon service the same as they did with it and 392AN and 376AN and 395CM when they need to sub one of those in on an Amazon route due to maintenance, etc.
Last edited by wjcandee on Thu Dec 31, 2020 6:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Thu Dec 31, 2020 6:35 pm

MajMattMason wrote:
Here’s to a great New Year of talking everything Amazon and airplanes!! :champagne:


YES!! That's a great toast, MajMattMason!!
 
flyguy1
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Thu Dec 31, 2020 6:39 pm

wjcandee wrote:
MajMattMason wrote:
Here’s to a great New Year of talking everything Amazon and airplanes!! :champagne:


YES!! That's a great toast, MajMattMason!!


Happy New Year everyone! I am constantly learning new things from this thread!
727, L1011, MD80, A300, 777-200, 737-300, 737-700, 747-400, 757-200, 737-800, A320. E190, E135, 767-200, CRJ9
 
Boof02671
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Thu Dec 31, 2020 6:48 pm

What’s involved in the conformity check? You’d think it’d be ready to go once done being converted?
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Thu Dec 31, 2020 6:59 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
What’s involved in the conformity check? You’d think it’d be ready to go once done being converted?


Per FAA, "The purpose of an aircraft conformity inspection is to verify that your aircraft conforms to its type design and is configured/bridged to your approved program and operations."

To get an idea of what is involved, there is an inspection checklist (with a couple of forms at the end) at this link: https://fsims.faa.gov/wdocs/8900.1/v10% ... 09_001.htm

In that link, Table 10-9-1C talks specifically about the records and such that need to be present and examined, and Table 10-9-1D (notably in the first item) talks about some specific requirements for the bridging, and some things that have to be inspected.

I have seen it done in two weeks or less. Part of that is coordinating with the FAA.
 
CX747
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Thu Dec 31, 2020 8:27 pm

1- An early Happy New Year to everyone. This thread is fantastic. The level of discussion, without argument, truly allows for such great dialogue of information.

So it doesn't get lost in the 2020-2021 transition. Amazon has now purchased 11 767s on their own. 4 being ex Westjet birds and 7 being ex Delta birds.

Also, it would seem the 2028 "engine emissions" issues are not issues and the 767 should quite easily continue to be sold new or converted moving forward. This should allow Amazon and others to continue to buy new or convert, depending upon their desires.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
Boof02671
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Thu Dec 31, 2020 9:16 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
What’s involved in the conformity check? You’d think it’d be ready to go once done being converted?


Per FAA, "The purpose of an aircraft conformity inspection is to verify that your aircraft conforms to its type design and is configured/bridged to your approved program and operations."

To get an idea of what is involved, there is an inspection checklist (with a couple of forms at the end) at this link: https://fsims.faa.gov/wdocs/8900.1/v10% ... 09_001.htm

In that link, Table 10-9-1C talks specifically about the records and such that need to be present and examined, and Table 10-9-1D (notably in the first item) talks about some specific requirements for the bridging, and some things that have to be inspected.

I have seen it done in two weeks or less. Part of that is coordinating with the FAA.

At US when we sent planes to an MRO we had inspection people there to verify all that and check airman to to ty test flights. Even at Aeroman in SAL.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Thu Dec 31, 2020 9:40 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
At US when we sent planes to an MRO we had inspection people there to verify all that and check airman to to ty test flights. Even at Aeroman in SAL.


Absolutely. And indeed, ATSG has customer reps at IAI. But once the conversion is done and the airline wants to put the modified aircraft on its certificate, the airline does the formal conformity check, which ATSG does in the US, usually at ILN, where a group of folks has deep tribal knowledge of how to do it smoothly, as well as experience in interacting with the relevant FAA people responsible for their airline.

(I noticed by the way that ATI has a new POI, a guy who is a designated whistleblower who has asserted that he was transferred from his previous post as POI for Atlas/Polar/Southern because he was too rigorous with them. Likely how he does with ATI will reveal whether, as Atlas asserted, this was a personality issue (his personality), or, as he asserts, there were serious and unusual deficiencies at Atlas that management refused to address and tried to sidestep.)
 
Boof02671
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Thu Dec 31, 2020 9:52 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
At US when we sent planes to an MRO we had inspection people there to verify all that and check airman to to ty test flights. Even at Aeroman in SAL.


Absolutely. And indeed, ATSG has customer reps at IAI. But once the conversion is done and the airline wants to put the modified aircraft on its certificate, the airline does the formal conformity check, which ATSG does in the US, usually at ILN, where a group of folks has deep tribal knowledge of how to do it smoothly, as well as experience in interacting with the relevant FAA people responsible for their airline.

(I noticed by the way that ATI has a new POI, a guy who is a designated whistleblower who has asserted that he was transferred from his previous post as POI for Atlas/Polar/Southern because he was too rigorous with them. Likely how he does with ATI will reveal whether, as Atlas asserted, this was a personality issue (his personality), or, as he asserts, there were serious and unusual deficiencies at Atlas that management refused to address and tried to sidestep.)

Thanks
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Fri Jan 01, 2021 1:24 am

Yes a great thread, Happy New Year to everyone.

On my wish list is for Amazon to launch the 764F, added capacity, improved efficiency, and longer range.

Nice to see the rise of the 738 freighters, in particular Sun Country operating them like scheduled flights.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Fri Jan 01, 2021 1:33 am

JayinKitsap wrote:
Yes a great thread, Happy New Year to everyone.

On my wish list is for Amazon to launch the 764F, added capacity, improved efficiency, and longer range.

Nice to see the rise of the 738 freighters, in particular Sun Country operating them like scheduled flights.


Those are good wishes! Happy New Year to you and yours, and to all of our members!

I wish that we continue this thread in 2021 with the spirit that made it so enjoyable in 2020. (Like CX747 said so eloquently.) I have no doubt we will.
 
Boof02671
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Fri Jan 01, 2021 3:23 am

JayinKitsap wrote:
Yes a great thread, Happy New Year to everyone.

On my wish list is for Amazon to launch the 764F, added capacity, improved efficiency, and longer range.

Nice to see the rise of the 738 freighters, in particular Sun Country operating them like scheduled flights.

There isn’t an STC for it and there is no feed stock and only 37 were ever built
 
jbs2886
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Fri Jan 01, 2021 4:14 am

Boof02671 wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
Yes a great thread, Happy New Year to everyone.

On my wish list is for Amazon to launch the 764F, added capacity, improved efficiency, and longer range.

Nice to see the rise of the 738 freighters, in particular Sun Country operating them like scheduled flights.

There isn’t an STC for it and there is no feed stock and only 37 were ever built


The 764F is a Boeing new build proposal, so conversion feedstock is irrelevant. He also clearly said launch so we know there isn’t an STC.
 
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N328KF
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 3:25 am

And right off the bat in 2021, Amazon is buying seven 767s from Delta.

https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/new ... 7-jets.htm
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CoThG
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 3:34 am

N328KF wrote:
And right off the bat in 2021, Amazon is buying seven 767s from Delta.

https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/new ... 7-jets.htm


ATI can't wait to get their hands on those.
 
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Spacepope
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:27 am

CoThG wrote:
N328KF wrote:
And right off the bat in 2021, Amazon is buying seven 767s from Delta.

https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/new ... 7-jets.htm


ATI can't wait to get their hands on those.


Are they bidding on operating them? It’s not CAM that’s buying them.
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HPRamper
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:44 pm

Looks like N399CM in "actual" Aloha Air Cargo colors is now flying the SEA route.
 
Gillbilly
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Sun Jan 03, 2021 2:23 am

Can anyone list the seven DL 767s registration numbers that are going to Amazon? I haven't been able to find this on any free sites.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Sun Jan 03, 2021 2:44 am

What I wrote down, which is from a 100%-reliable member, MO11, I believe, in another thread (now where is that??), is the following:

1607B
1608
1609
1610D
1611B
1612T
1613B

1610D, 1611B, 1612T were bought on 12/24/20 and the others were bought on 12/29.

None have moved yet, and the FAA doesn't show a number change yet on its public site.
 
Delta28L
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Sun Jan 03, 2021 2:48 am

Any chance we see any new cities added to the amazon network this year?
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Sun Jan 03, 2021 2:56 am

HPRamper wrote:
Looks like N399CM in "actual" Aloha Air Cargo colors is now flying the SEA route.


Yup. I saw that, too. 381AN was flying it, but 381 went to ILN to be turned into N479AZ. So 392AN has been flying it the last few days. Today, they used 399CM, while 392AN has been sitting in HNL for 48 hours. Just a guess, but perhaps it's getting a little TLC on an off-day, and they just ran the circuit HNL-SEA-LAX-HNL instead of that *plus* HNL-LAX-HNL on the second aircraft.

The reason to think that that's optimistic and in fact 392AN is broken is that you guys are still pounding multiple 747s per day from the East Coast to HNL, so why would the West Coast cargo scene be any different? But different carriers get different stuff, so I don't know. Plainly, Aloha didn't want to strand the cans that go to you every day at SEA.
Last edited by wjcandee on Sun Jan 03, 2021 3:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Sun Jan 03, 2021 3:03 am

Delta28L wrote:
Any chance we see any new cities added to the amazon network this year?


I would think it's almost a certainty. I know several members have their own lists of new cities that they think we will see (or at least that they would like to see).
 
gdavis003
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Sun Jan 03, 2021 4:08 am

Delta28L wrote:
Any chance we see any new cities added to the amazon network this year?


Nashville seems to be a prime target for fulfillment centers on the ground for them. Already have three and are adding a fourth, if I recall. Would seem to make sense as a logical add, but you can truck a lot of stuff up to CVG from there.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Sun Jan 03, 2021 4:58 am

In our discussion about what aircraft would be going to Amazon, and when, one tidbit.

There had been some talk about N376AN going to Amazon. It is currently in white with an ATI decal and serves military and backup duty. It had once been expected to go to Amazon a couple of years ago, but ended up being a second ATI spare/military/contract aircraft (with N395CM).

Accordingly, when it pulled off of what it was doing for Peak and flew to ILN a couple of days ago and didn't move after that, I thought that maybe this was a sign that the Amazon rumours might be correct. Or not.

As of tonight, for now at least it seems to have dropped back into military contract service. It is departing ILN tonight for SUU, which generally is the jumping-off point for an Alaska, Japan and maybe Diego Garcia tour that generally lasts about 5-6 days. So it seems that nothing urgent is happening with it as far as prepping it for Amazon.

In that regard, there are two aircraft now at ILN that fit that bill. N381AN, which we know will become N479AZ, is already about a week at ILN, presumably doing the transfer stuff to be dry-leased to Amazon. We heard from a member that it likely will just start Amazon service without being repainted in Prime Air livery, because Amazon wants it ricky-tick. But these things change all the time, so we will see.

Also at ILN is N395AN, which arrived from TLV about two-and-a-half weeks ago. If it's going to painted in Prime Air livery (right now it has been made largely-grey), one would expect it to head to paint shortly. There is no waiting line at the painting contractors these days, so presumably ATSG can send it when they want to.

The first five of this year's 11 Amazon-dry-leased-from-CAM aircraft will be flown by ATI, and will be delivered by the end of March. After that, it's anyone's guess. Maybe ABX, maybe GTI, or maybe ATI. Even maybe Omni if the military pax biz doesn't pick up and the charter biz doesn't come back. I don't see any reason for Amazon to send them to another vendor outside of the ATSG/AAWW families, not that such vendors aren't banging on Amazon's door daily.
 
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Spacepope
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Sun Jan 03, 2021 5:12 am

wjcandee wrote:
The first five of this year's 11 Amazon-dry-leased-from-CAM aircraft will be flown by ATI, and will be delivered by the end of March. After that, it's anyone's guess. Maybe ABX, maybe GTI, or maybe ATI. Even maybe Omni if the military pax biz doesn't pick up and the charter biz doesn't come back. I don't see any reason for Amazon to send them to another vendor outside of the ATSG/AAWW families, not that such vendors aren't banging on Amazon's door daily.


With regards to the final 6 you are probably correct, but I used to do Tang Soo Do with some of the Kalitta clan growing up and knowing them, it’s just so surprising Connie and co have steered so clear from the competitive yet fairly lucrative and steady Amazon work.
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autopiloton
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:30 am

In reference to N376AN I was told it’s planned to go in around mid Jan. So this is probably the last military run it will do. I guess the question is what aircraft will replace it. I’m pretty sure ATI has used N255CM (a 200) on that run before. Since N395CM is tied up with DHL...maybe that’s the plan going forward?


wjcandee wrote:
In our discussion about what aircraft would be going to Amazon, and when, one tidbit.

There had been some talk about N376AN going to Amazon. It is currently in white with an ATI decal and serves military and backup duty. It had once been expected to go to Amazon a couple of years ago, but ended up being a second ATI spare/military/contract aircraft (with N395CM).

Accordingly, when it pulled off of what it was doing for Peak and flew to ILN a couple of days ago and didn't move after that, I thought that maybe this was a sign that the Amazon rumours might be correct. Or not.

As of tonight, for now at least it seems to have dropped back into military contract service. It is departing ILN tonight for SUU, which generally is the jumping-off point for an Alaska, Japan and maybe Diego Garcia tour that generally lasts about 5-6 days. So it seems that nothing urgent is happening with it as far as prepping it for Amazon.

In that regard, there are two aircraft now at ILN that fit that bill. N381AN, which we know will become N479AZ, is already about a week at ILN, presumably doing the transfer stuff to be dry-leased to Amazon. We heard from a member that it likely will just start Amazon service without being repainted in Prime Air livery, because Amazon wants it ricky-tick. But these things change all the time, so we will see.

Also at ILN is N395AN, which arrived from TLV about two-and-a-half weeks ago. If it's going to painted in Prime Air livery (right now it has been made largely-grey), one would expect it to head to paint shortly. There is no waiting line at the painting contractors these days, so presumably ATSG can send it when they want to.

The first five of this year's 11 Amazon-dry-leased-from-CAM aircraft will be flown by ATI, and will be delivered by the end of March. After that, it's anyone's guess. Maybe ABX, maybe GTI, or maybe ATI. Even maybe Omni if the military pax biz doesn't pick up and the charter biz doesn't come back. I don't see any reason for Amazon to send them to another vendor outside of the ATSG/AAWW families, not that such vendors aren't banging on Amazon's door daily.
 
gdavis003
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:36 am

autopiloton wrote:
In reference to N376AN I was told it’s planned to go in around mid Jan. So this is probably the last military run it will do. I guess the question is what aircraft will replace it. I’m pretty sure ATI has used N255CM (a 200) on that run before. Since N395CM is tied up with DHL...maybe that’s the plan going forward?


wjcandee wrote:
In our discussion about what aircraft would be going to Amazon, and when, one tidbit.

There had been some talk about N376AN going to Amazon. It is currently in white with an ATI decal and serves military and backup duty. It had once been expected to go to Amazon a couple of years ago, but ended up being a second ATI spare/military/contract aircraft (with N395CM).

Accordingly, when it pulled off of what it was doing for Peak and flew to ILN a couple of days ago and didn't move after that, I thought that maybe this was a sign that the Amazon rumours might be correct. Or not.

As of tonight, for now at least it seems to have dropped back into military contract service. It is departing ILN tonight for SUU, which generally is the jumping-off point for an Alaska, Japan and maybe Diego Garcia tour that generally lasts about 5-6 days. So it seems that nothing urgent is happening with it as far as prepping it for Amazon.

In that regard, there are two aircraft now at ILN that fit that bill. N381AN, which we know will become N479AZ, is already about a week at ILN, presumably doing the transfer stuff to be dry-leased to Amazon. We heard from a member that it likely will just start Amazon service without being repainted in Prime Air livery, because Amazon wants it ricky-tick. But these things change all the time, so we will see.

Also at ILN is N395AN, which arrived from TLV about two-and-a-half weeks ago. If it's going to painted in Prime Air livery (right now it has been made largely-grey), one would expect it to head to paint shortly. There is no waiting line at the painting contractors these days, so presumably ATSG can send it when they want to.

The first five of this year's 11 Amazon-dry-leased-from-CAM aircraft will be flown by ATI, and will be delivered by the end of March. After that, it's anyone's guess. Maybe ABX, maybe GTI, or maybe ATI. Even maybe Omni if the military pax biz doesn't pick up and the charter biz doesn't come back. I don't see any reason for Amazon to send them to another vendor outside of the ATSG/AAWW families, not that such vendors aren't banging on Amazon's door daily.


Is 255CM ETOPS? That replacement would make sense, as long as it’s ETOPS. I’m guessing it is
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:45 am

Spacepope wrote:
I used to do Tang Soo Do with some of the Kalitta clan growing up...


I'll need to be sure to keep any sparring with you to the verbal variety. I can be pretty-helpful in a bar fight, but Tang Soo Do...fuggetaboudit. The existence of Tang Soo Do is a good reminder that being physically-aggressive with people one thinks one can dominate may end up with a surprising result, and a broken bone or two. One of my coolest high school teachers (female) was a multi-degree black belt in Karate, and we couldn't help but notice when in Boston at night that she walked down some of the meaner streets with the confidence and serenity of someone who could handle herself.
Last edited by wjcandee on Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:59 am, edited 4 times in total.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:56 am

autopiloton wrote:
In reference to N376AN I was told it’s planned to go in around mid Jan. So this is probably the last military run it will do. I guess the question is what aircraft will replace it. I’m pretty sure ATI has used N255CM (a 200) on that run before. Since N395CM is tied up with DHL...maybe that’s the plan going forward?


Thanks for the great info. I'm thinking that unless the military has really bumped-up the cargo load, the -200 should do, because the 757Combi that was doing the far end of this circuit pre-Covid only carries 10 cans. I think there were some full-freighter flights on the Conus-OKO portion as well, so there may be some making-do without 376. I'm also guessing that perhaps one advantage of using the -300 is also its range; not clear to me without doing some minor research whether with the relevant cargo load the -200 can skip the QPG stop like the -300 does.

Or maybe 395CM will be back from DHL duty by the time the need arises. Or ABX can subservice these missions with a spare 763 (e.g. 316CM). Or a million other possibilities, I guess..

So it sounds like 376 is going to be the 5th one, then, making the First Five: 376AN (???AZ), 381AN (479AZ), 392AN (491AZ), 395AN (499AZ) and 388AA (???AZ).

As mentioned, the first 3 are already on the ATI certificate, 395AN has been in conformity for about 2 weeks, and 388AA has been in TLV since 8/20/20, so figure February.
 
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Spacepope
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Sun Jan 03, 2021 3:42 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Spacepope wrote:
I used to do Tang Soo Do with some of the Kalitta clan growing up...


I'll need to be sure to keep any sparring with you to the verbal variety. I can be pretty-helpful in a bar fight, but Tang Soo Do...fuggetaboudit. The existence of Tang Soo Do is a good reminder that being physically-aggressive with people one thinks one can dominate may end up with a surprising result, and a broken bone or two. One of my coolest high school teachers (female) was a multi-degree black belt in Karate, and we couldn't help but notice when in Boston at night that she walked down some of the meaner streets with the confidence and serenity of someone who could handle herself.


Yeah this was around Desert Storm, so just when Connie was getting into the 747 biz. Now that he's into 767 flying I still don't quite understand why Kalitta is content with just operating some for DHL, and not Amazon as well.

I saw West Atlantic returned 2 fairly geriatric 762Fs over the New Year holiday. What's the plan for them?
The last of the famous international playboys
 
CALMSP
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Sun Jan 03, 2021 4:48 pm

gdavis003 wrote:
Delta28L wrote:
Any chance we see any new cities added to the amazon network this year?


Nashville seems to be a prime target for fulfillment centers on the ground for them. Already have three and are adding a fourth, if I recall. Would seem to make sense as a logical add, but you can truck a lot of stuff up to CVG from there.


Yeah, with only a 3:45 minute drive to CVG, I'd be shocked if BNA came on. But, AMZ would still choose to operate to the likes of AFW or ONT, so who knows depending on whether or not someone from the west coast orders something.
 
A380MSN004
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Sun Jan 03, 2021 5:05 pm

wjcandee wrote:
What I wrote down, which is from a 100%-reliable member, MO11, I believe, in another thread (now where is that??), is the following:

1607B
1608
1609
1610D
1611B
1612T
1613B

1610D, 1611B, 1612T were bought on 12/24/20 and the others were bought on 12/29.

None have moved yet, and the FAA doesn't show a number change yet on its public site.


Do we have an idea of the price ?

Jetran is also a great buyer on that type of frame, do you guys think Amazon proposed a better number to get those frames ?
 
BMcD
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:18 pm

Amazon is getting a larger and larger footprint in COS. Recently this came out:

"The Colorado Springs Airport is seeking approval for construction of a 279,000-square-foot sortation center next to an Amazon delivery station in Peak Innovation Park, which documents submitted to city planners have indicated will be an Amazon facility." With all the other projects that Amazon is doing in the city, the city will approve this.

I can see Amazon flying into COS. Runway length isn't an issue and parking space isn't an issue. B-52's have taken off, 747s have come in and out without any problems. Their lengths:

17L/35R, 13,501 ft × 150 ft (4,115 m × 46 m) long, 17R/35L, 11,022 ft × 150 ft (3,360 m × 46 m) and 13/31, 8,269 ft × 150 ft (2,520 m × 46 m)

Fedex was using a 75 into the airport as well.

As for population and why not fly it into DEN, COS population is exploding and is catching up in population. The county’s population is more than 713,850 and expanding rapidly, trailing just behind Denver’s roughly 716,490 residents.
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wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:48 pm

Spacepope wrote:
I still don't quite understand why Kalitta is content with just operating some for DHL, and not Amazon as well.

I saw West Atlantic returned 2 fairly geriatric 762Fs over the New Year holiday. What's the plan for them?


What was said early on was that he didn't want Amazon as a part-owner/warrant-holder. Whether true or not, that was what was floating around. He also doesn't have a leasing company, and when Amazon was getting into this whole thing, AAWW and ATSG were offering a more turn-key, soup-to-nuts experience. CAM and ATI delivered on that a little-more seamlessly than Titan and Atlas did. ABX has generally performed well, but with more drama, which maybe will diminish now. Southern was a goatrope and likely would have ended up with zero more 737s but for Covid and the availability of more-experienced pilots and perhaps a little more Atlas management attention to satisfying the customer (although they clearly were not delivering customer "delight"). That's an opening for Connie on the 767 side if his mind has changed about other things. Interestingly, the rumblings on APC seem to be that the Kalitta pilots don't really love the DHL 767 flying, just by its nature. Whether that would be different with the different Amazon network operation, I don't know. And of course now that Amazon has stepped into an ownership position with some aircraft, the need for a turnkey experience is long gone.

On the just-returned West Atlantic aircraft, SE-RLA used to be N747AX and SE-RLB used to be N745AX. They were at West Air for about 5 years. Both were heavy-checked before heading over to Sweden. 747AX was at about 34173 cycles (72828 hours) at the heavy-check, and 745AX was at 39168 cycles (83258 hours). Figure 700 cycles per year for each on average (just judging from their use in the last year or so), so add about 3500 cycles to those numbers to see where they are today, and you get a guesstimated cycle count of about 37,700 for SE-RLA and 42,700 for SE-RLB. That's more than enough to sustain a 5-year or even 10-year lease to somebody. So I would guess that CAM will re-lease them. The Rayas and Astrals and Sky Taxis and MASAirs of the world would I think be interested, And with the new ABX contract, perhaps we could even see a few back on DHL in the US. If DHL is going to hire 21Air with its ragged-out 762s, why not ABX with these? So I think they will find new homes.

I'm sad about 752AX, but with its 49,000-ish cycle count, they weren't going to lease it to anybody for 5 years or more, so its only use was as a spare in the ABX family, and I guess they didn't want to C-check it when they already had spares. (Still sad; heck, they painted it just last year.) The fate of these others should be much better.
 
f18raider
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:51 pm

BMcD wrote:
As for population and why not fly it into DEN, COS population is exploding and is catching up in population. The county’s population is more than 713,850 and expanding rapidly, trailing just behind Denver’s roughly 716,490 residents.


Not quite accurate to compare El Paso County and Denver County in population.

Denver County proper is just a smaller piece of the pie compared to the metro similar to Miami or San Francisco. It would be misleading to not include Jefferson, Arapahoe, Adams, Douglas, Broomfield, Boulder and to an extent Weld counties in which the population obviously dwarfs that of El Paso county.
 
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VCVSpotter
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:14 pm

wjcandee wrote:
autopiloton wrote:
In reference to N376AN I was told it’s planned to go in around mid Jan. So this is probably the last military run it will do. I guess the question is what aircraft will replace it. I’m pretty sure ATI has used N255CM (a 200) on that run before. Since N395CM is tied up with DHL...maybe that’s the plan going forward?


Thanks for the great info. I'm thinking that unless the military has really bumped-up the cargo load, the -200 should do, because the 757Combi that was doing the far end of this circuit pre-Covid only carries 10 cans. I think there were some full-freighter flights on the Conus-OKO portion as well, so there may be some making-do without 376. I'm also guessing that perhaps one advantage of using the -300 is also its range; not clear to me without doing some minor research whether with the relevant cargo load the -200 can skip the QPG stop like the -300 does.

Or maybe 395CM will be back from DHL duty by the time the need arises. Or ABX can subservice these missions with a spare 763 (e.g. 316CM). Or a million other possibilities, I guess..

So it sounds like 376 is going to be the 5th one, then, making the First Five: 376AN (???AZ), 381AN (479AZ), 392AN (491AZ), 395AN (499AZ) and 388AA (???AZ).

As mentioned, the first 3 are already on the ATI certificate, 395AN has been in conformity for about 2 weeks, and 388AA has been in TLV since 8/20/20, so figure February.


I’m not entirely sure on the significance of this, but West Atlantic 767-200F SE-RLA flew to ILN yesterday (Jan 2), and planespotters lists her as WFU on Jan 1....could this bird be going to fill N376AN’s role?

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/se-rla
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

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wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:19 pm

VCVSpotter wrote:
...could [the West Atlantic lease returns] be going to fill N376AN’s role?


And yet another potential use for them! Good thought.
 
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Spacepope
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:58 pm

f18raider wrote:
BMcD wrote:
As for population and why not fly it into DEN, COS population is exploding and is catching up in population. The county’s population is more than 713,850 and expanding rapidly, trailing just behind Denver’s roughly 716,490 residents.


Not quite accurate to compare El Paso County and Denver County in population.

Denver County proper is just a smaller piece of the pie compared to the metro similar to Miami or San Francisco. It would be misleading to not include Jefferson, Arapahoe, Adams, Douglas, Broomfield, Boulder and to an extent Weld counties in which the population obviously dwarfs that of El Paso county.


I think the thing here for amazon is that COS has both the critical mass and population to warrant air service separate from their DEN infrastructure. We El Paso Countians aren't exactly Pueblo now, and even with the Gap Project eventually finishing on the misery that is I-25 moving things down from DEN in a timely manner (especially anytime and ABQ low hits Monument hill) will always be a challenge.

With EPC looking to become the most populous county in the state, this may challenge the whole notion that "Denver can handle it", especially with how much infrastructure Amazon is building on property at COS.
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CALMSP
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Sun Jan 03, 2021 8:45 pm

Spacepope wrote:
f18raider wrote:
BMcD wrote:
As for population and why not fly it into DEN, COS population is exploding and is catching up in population. The county’s population is more than 713,850 and expanding rapidly, trailing just behind Denver’s roughly 716,490 residents.


Not quite accurate to compare El Paso County and Denver County in population.

Denver County proper is just a smaller piece of the pie compared to the metro similar to Miami or San Francisco. It would be misleading to not include Jefferson, Arapahoe, Adams, Douglas, Broomfield, Boulder and to an extent Weld counties in which the population obviously dwarfs that of El Paso county.


I think the thing here for amazon is that COS has both the critical mass and population to warrant air service separate from their DEN infrastructure. We El Paso Countians aren't exactly Pueblo now, and even with the Gap Project eventually finishing on the misery that is I-25 moving things down from DEN in a timely manner (especially anytime and ABQ low hits Monument hill) will always be a challenge.

With EPC looking to become the most populous county in the state, this may challenge the whole notion that "Denver can handle it", especially with how much infrastructure Amazon is building on property at COS.



that all depends on what is being ordered, if its a commodity that is driven from local facilities in COS, then no need for air. Even with DEN, AMZ was only shipping in via air 1-2 containers of goods going to their COS1 location. Partially due to the AMZ facilities in DEN already that are fulfilling orders.
 
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sunking737
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Sun Jan 03, 2021 9:25 pm

Peterson AFB is in the running for U S Space Force Headquarters. More folks moving into the area it the HQ stays. Temp now
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1337Delta764
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:34 am

Some have mentioned AEG (Double Eagle II Airport in the Albuquerque West Mesa) as a potential Amazon Air site. Amazon is opening a fulfillment center nearby, but does AEG really have the infrastructure to support such a cargo operation?
Last edited by 1337Delta764 on Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
BMcD
Posts: 107
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:35 am

COS is slated to be sending out to other neighboring state, it isn't just fulfillment for this region. I don't see a 3.3m square foot complex just being for the locals. I doubt Amazon would want to freight it up to DEN when they can fly it out of there to the other stations.

"The Seattle-based online giant is building a 3.7 million-square-foot complex in the airport's Peak Innovation Park to ship customer orders for books, electronics, toys and other smaller items to the Colorado Springs area, across the rest of the state and to surrounding states. The center is adjacent to a delivery station Amazon opened last year to make deliveries to customers in the Springs area." They recently scooped up 2 other industrial type buildings here as well. Amazon is expanding its footprint here, and in a hurry.

As someone else mentioned, I think trying to get stuff up to DEN during weather events or the wonderful season we have here as construction. COS can make fees lower enticing Amazon to fly into here. Either way, it will be interesting to see what Amazon is going to decide to do long term. Sorting and sending things south from here may be more economical as well.
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CALMSP
Posts: 3626
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:18 am

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:41 am

BMcD wrote:
COS is slated to be sending out to other neighboring state, it isn't just fulfillment for this region. I don't see a 3.3m square foot complex just being for the locals. I doubt Amazon would want to freight it up to DEN when they can fly it out of there to the other stations.

"The Seattle-based online giant is building a 3.7 million-square-foot complex in the airport's Peak Innovation Park to ship customer orders for books, electronics, toys and other smaller items to the Colorado Springs area, across the rest of the state and to surrounding states. The center is adjacent to a delivery station Amazon opened last year to make deliveries to customers in the Springs area." They recently scooped up 2 other industrial type buildings here as well. Amazon is expanding its footprint here, and in a hurry.

As someone else mentioned, I think trying to get stuff up to DEN during weather events or the wonderful season we have here as construction. COS can make fees lower enticing Amazon to fly into here. Either way, it will be interesting to see what Amazon is going to decide to do long term. Sorting and sending things south from here may be more economical as well.


driving up the highway to DEN is not a concern. For most of the year its an hour drive. I mean, AMZ trucks stuff all over Texas from their gateways to other gateways, so driving is not a concern if it meets a customer order and the timing of flights at a departing station.
 
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Spacepope
Posts: 5176
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 1999 11:10 am

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:41 am

CALMSP wrote:
BMcD wrote:
COS is slated to be sending out to other neighboring state, it isn't just fulfillment for this region. I don't see a 3.3m square foot complex just being for the locals. I doubt Amazon would want to freight it up to DEN when they can fly it out of there to the other stations.

"The Seattle-based online giant is building a 3.7 million-square-foot complex in the airport's Peak Innovation Park to ship customer orders for books, electronics, toys and other smaller items to the Colorado Springs area, across the rest of the state and to surrounding states. The center is adjacent to a delivery station Amazon opened last year to make deliveries to customers in the Springs area." They recently scooped up 2 other industrial type buildings here as well. Amazon is expanding its footprint here, and in a hurry.

As someone else mentioned, I think trying to get stuff up to DEN during weather events or the wonderful season we have here as construction. COS can make fees lower enticing Amazon to fly into here. Either way, it will be interesting to see what Amazon is going to decide to do long term. Sorting and sending things south from here may be more economical as well.


driving up the highway to DEN is not a concern. For most of the year its an hour drive. I mean, AMZ trucks stuff all over Texas from their gateways to other gateways, so driving is not a concern if it meets a customer order and the timing of flights at a departing station.

I’d love to see you get from COS to DEN in an hour. Double that nowadays in good weather. But in any case 2 containers on a 763 to DEN means about a third or so of an 738. If you add points south (heck all the way down to Santa Fe) it won’t be too long till you can fill up a full plane, especially backfilling up north.

When EPC has a population greater than Rotterdam and can’t get more than a tag on FX flight from Grand Junction....
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frmrCapCadet
Posts: 4734
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:16 pm

A general observation, last year I gave all the grandkids a lot of 4 and 5 star tools in a tool tote, the tools came from all over - as far away as Florida here to the Seattle area - about none of them originated in Seattle. This year I didn't do anything so spectacular but was ordering a lot because of being shut in away from the virus. Just about everything originated from the Seattle area. Could this mean that Amazon is able to estimate what is needed locally with a greater degree of accuracy? If so my original thoughts about the air freight may be happening - balancing local supply lines as much as sending already sold items.
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Allee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:22 pm

ABX starting their second trans-Atlantic route for DHL today:

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/gb971
 
ILNFlyer
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:50 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Spacepope wrote:
I still don't quite understand why Kalitta is content with just operating some for DHL, and not Amazon as well.

I saw West Atlantic returned 2 fairly geriatric 762Fs over the New Year holiday. What's the plan for them?


What was said early on was that he didn't want Amazon as a part-owner/warrant-holder. Whether true or not, that was what was floating around. He also doesn't have a leasing company, and when Amazon was getting into this whole thing, AAWW and ATSG were offering a more turn-key, soup-to-nuts experience. CAM and ATI delivered on that a little-more seamlessly than Titan and Atlas did. ABX has generally performed well, but with more drama, which maybe will diminish now. Southern was a goatrope and likely would have ended up with zero more 737s but for Covid and the availability of more-experienced pilots and perhaps a little more Atlas management attention to satisfying the customer (although they clearly were not delivering customer "delight"). That's an opening for Connie on the 767 side if his mind has changed about other things. Interestingly, the rumblings on APC seem to be that the Kalitta pilots don't really love the DHL 767 flying, just by its nature. Whether that would be different with the different Amazon network operation, I don't know. And of course now that Amazon has stepped into an ownership position with some aircraft, the need for a turnkey experience is long gone.

On the just-returned West Atlantic aircraft, SE-RLA used to be N747AX and SE-RLB used to be N745AX. They were at West Air for about 5 years. Both were heavy-checked before heading over to Sweden. 747AX was at about 34173 cycles (72828 hours) at the heavy-check, and 745AX was at 39168 cycles (83258 hours). Figure 700 cycles per year for each on average (just judging from their use in the last year or so), so add about 3500 cycles to those numbers to see where they are today, and you get a guesstimated cycle count of about 37,700 for SE-RLA and 42,700 for SE-RLB. That's more than enough to sustain a 5-year or even 10-year lease to somebody. So I would guess that CAM will re-lease them. The Rayas and Astrals and Sky Taxis and MASAirs of the world would I think be interested, And with the new ABX contract, perhaps we could even see a few back on DHL in the US. If DHL is going to hire 21Air with its ragged-out 762s, why not ABX with these? So I think they will find new homes.

I'm sad about 752AX, but with its 49,000-ish cycle count, they weren't going to lease it to anybody for 5 years or more, so its only use was as a spare in the ABX family, and I guess they didn't want to C-check it when they already had spares. (Still sad; heck, they painted it just last year.) The fate of these others should be much better.


What are your feelings regarding the fact Amazon is purchasing it's own aircraft...the impact on the future of ATSG and other lessors....
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