USAirKid wrote:

1337Delta764 wrote:

It appears Amazon has changed the designation for its CVG Amazon Air hub on its shipping labels. It looks like Amazon now prints "KHUB" on the labels instead of KCVG.

I'm kinda curious how much longer Amazon is going to stick with just four letter codes sort of loosely based off of IACO/IATA codes for facilities. It worked in their 2000-2010 style of distribution of a few big fulfillment centers in a couple of states, but its getting strained with each fulfillment center and sorting facility each getting their own pseudo-IACO code.

Like one of the oddest things is theres a collection of facilities in Everett, Washington with the code DSE# (DSE4, DSE5) From what I can see KDSE isn't an IACO code, but DSE is an IATA code for Combolcha Airport in Ethiopia!

I'd be curious if its in the pipeline to write themselves out of this technical debt, by perhaps expanding the code to 8 or 16 characters. (They'd probably not use all of them, but if you're rewriting, it helps to give yourself some space.) This way you could have a code like KPAE-D4 (Everett, WA, Delivery 4.)

The first "D" is for delivery station. The "SE" is for Seattle area.
The best site I have found for Amazon locations, including air, is at https://www.mwpvl.com/html/amazon_com.html
Edit: The site is back up. B̶u̶t̶ ̶d̶o̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶g̶o̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶r̶e̶ ̶r̶i̶g̶h̶t̶ ̶n̶o̶w̶(̶A̶p̶r̶i̶l̶ ̶3̶0̶)̶ ̶b̶e̶c̶a̶u̶s̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶s̶i̶t̶e̶ ̶h̶a̶s̶ ̶a̶p̶p̶a̶r̶e̶n̶t̶l̶y̶ ̶b̶e̶e̶n̶ ̶h̶i̶j̶a̶c̶k̶e̶d̶

Amazon handed over N503AZ to ATI yesterday.

USAirKid wrote:

1337Delta764 wrote:

It appears Amazon has changed the designation for its CVG Amazon Air hub on its shipping labels. It looks like Amazon now prints "KHUB" on the labels instead of KCVG.

I'm kinda curious how much longer Amazon is going to stick with just four letter codes sort of loosely based off of IACO/IATA codes for facilities. It worked in their 2000-2010 style of distribution of a few big fulfillment centers in a couple of states, but its getting strained with each fulfillment center and sorting facility each getting their own pseudo-IACO code.

Like one of the oddest things is theres a collection of facilities in Everett, Washington with the code DSE# (DSE4, DSE5) From what I can see KDSE isn't an IACO code, but DSE is an IATA code for Combolcha Airport in Ethiopia!

I'd be curious if its in the pipeline to write themselves out of this technical debt, by perhaps expanding the code to 8 or 16 characters. (They'd probably not use all of them, but if you're rewriting, it helps to give yourself some space.) This way you could have a code like KPAE-D4 (Everett, WA, Delivery 4.)

Anything with a DXXX is a delivery station. It doesn’t follow the same structure as the FCs.

jetblueguy22 wrote:

USAirKid wrote:

1337Delta764 wrote:

It appears Amazon has changed the designation for its CVG Amazon Air hub on its shipping labels. It looks like Amazon now prints "KHUB" on the labels instead of KCVG.

I'm kinda curious how much longer Amazon is going to stick with just four letter codes sort of loosely based off of IACO/IATA codes for facilities. It worked in their 2000-2010 style of distribution of a few big fulfillment centers in a couple of states, but its getting strained with each fulfillment center and sorting facility each getting their own pseudo-IACO code.

Like one of the oddest things is theres a collection of facilities in Everett, Washington with the code DSE# (DSE4, DSE5) From what I can see KDSE isn't an IACO code, but DSE is an IATA code for Combolcha Airport in Ethiopia!

I'd be curious if its in the pipeline to write themselves out of this technical debt, by perhaps expanding the code to 8 or 16 characters. (They'd probably not use all of them, but if you're rewriting, it helps to give yourself some space.) This way you could have a code like KPAE-D4 (Everett, WA, Delivery 4.)

Anything with a DXXX is a delivery station. It doesn’t follow the same structure as the FCs.

Also, HXXX are specialty delivery stations for extra large items such as large TVs. SXXX/VXXX are dedicated same-day/rush FC/delivery station combos in a few markets. UXXX is Prime Now.

B350pilot wrote:

Who is Amazon's "competitor" ? Why would "flight schedules" be top secret. This is not Area 51 stuff.

they keep everything a secret, which can have problems for ground handlers if more equipment is necessary as just one example. AMZ thinks that them delivering socks is something that a competitor could find out about and figure out how to deliver socks too!!

CALMSP wrote:

B350pilot wrote:

Who is Amazon's "competitor" ? Why would "flight schedules" be top secret. This is not Area 51 stuff.

they keep everything a secret, which can have problems for ground handlers if more equipment is necessary as just one example. AMZ thinks that them delivering socks is something that a competitor could find out about and figure out how to deliver socks too!!

Sometimes it seems like Amazon goes out of their way to avoid using UPS. I have seen shipments where Amazon could have shipped it faster via UPS Next Day Air but chooses to use AMZL/Amazon Air.

1337Delta764 wrote:

CALMSP wrote:

B350pilot wrote:

Who is Amazon's "competitor" ? Why would "flight schedules" be top secret. This is not Area 51 stuff.

they keep everything a secret, which can have problems for ground handlers if more equipment is necessary as just one example. AMZ thinks that them delivering socks is something that a competitor could find out about and figure out how to deliver socks too!!

Sometimes it seems like Amazon goes out of their way to avoid using UPS. I have seen shipments where Amazon could have shipped it faster via UPS Next Day Air but chooses to use AMZL/Amazon Air.

Of course they’re going to try to use AMZL, the cost is always going to be substantially lower shipping it internally. Not to mention having control of it from fulfillment to final mile is huge for customer promise.

Both are primary reasons why AMZL exists.

N396AN B763 on way it's way ILN-SNN, ultimately to TLV for BDSF. cheers!

N229AZ B763 ex-N385AM sched ROW-ILN arriving 1635L from paint. cheers!

N393AN B763 now wears reg N233AZ, & an overall gray paint like N385AM did before respray at ROW, now N229AZ returning today to ILN. cheers!

Thanks for the updates, Stretch8!!

N396AN B763 left SNN-TLV early this morning, & is within 2 hours of landing TLV. Hoping crew of N396AN will bring N390AA B763 stateside. cheers!

N390AA B763 is scheduled TLV-SNN on May 6, 2021. Did maint flight May 5, 2021. Hopefully, SNN-CVG-ILN on May 7, 2021. cheers!

FYI folks, ATSG First Quarter Investor Call presentation, on May 6 at 10AM Eastern.

Some questions from me would be:

1. After an obvious COVID fueled rise (so did FedEx, UPS, etc, this is not ATSG-centric), the stock has been stuck in the $26 to 32 range for the last six months.

2. Why is AAWW (Atlas), FDX, UPS stock clearly outperforming ATSG stock? What is different? Allegedly, Amazon was "dumping" Atlas and going to ATI. True or not, AAWW (Atlas) stock has outperformed ATSG. Why?

3. Status of various ATSG contracts with Amazon? Is Amazon the only tractor the ATSG wagon is hitched to? What happens when Amazon goes somewhere else? Atlas, Sun Country, 21 Air, Amerijet, etc operators?

4. The reduction in CRAF/military flying, how is that impacting things?

5. A-321 freighter status? What is it? Weren't we supposed to see it in service by now?

6. Now that the ABX pilot contract appears to be resolved, and with the apparent "re-branding" of all ABX and ATI planes (minus the flying billboards for Amazon), will ABX and ATI be merged? What is the business case for why not? ATSG has how many POI's? 3? Omni, ABX, ATI? This must be a bureacratic nightmare. Why not merge them? Put on your MBA corporate America hat. Why not a merger?

No doubt ATSG is a "good company" with good people, but I think the above are indeed fair questions.

Just some things I would ask if I was able to....

LINK: https://edge.media-server.com/mmc/p/hwkhxic6

ATSG would rue the day it tried to merge ABX, Omni and ATI.

Think Pennsylvania Railroad and New York Central System merger.

Those are really great questions that I think we’d all like to know the answers to lol. However, I feel that a merger between ATI and ABX would be more headache than it’s worth. There still is a good amount of bad blood between the two groups. Idk about Omni though they kind of do their own thing. ATSG did put out some inversion notes though. You can go to their FB page find an overview of how the reduction in DOD flying and the uptick in cargo flying has impacted the company.

N390AA B763 en-route TLV-SNN landing 1649L. Scheduled 0900L departing SNN-CVG May 6, 2021. After customs to ILN. cheers!

B350pilot wrote:

FYI folks, ATSG First Quarter Investor Call presentation, on May 6 at 10AM Eastern.

Some questions from me would be:

1. After an obvious COVID fueled rise (so did FedEx, UPS, etc, this is not ATSG-centric), the stock has been stuck in the $26 to 32 range for the last six months.

2. Why is AAWW (Atlas), FDX, UPS stock clearly outperforming ATSG stock? What is different? Allegedly, Amazon was "dumping" Atlas and going to ATI. True or not, AAWW (Atlas) stock has outperformed ATSG. Why?

3. Status of various ATSG contracts with Amazon? Is Amazon the only tractor the ATSG wagon is hitched to? What happens when Amazon goes somewhere else? Atlas, Sun Country, 21 Air, Amerijet, etc operators?

4. The reduction in CRAF/military flying, how is that impacting things?

5. A-321 freighter status? What is it? Weren't we supposed to see it in service by now?

6. Now that the ABX pilot contract appears to be resolved, and with the apparent "re-branding" of all ABX and ATI planes (minus the flying billboards for Amazon), will ABX and ATI be merged? What is the business case for why not? ATSG has how many POI's? 3? Omni, ABX, ATI? This must be a bureacratic nightmare. Why not merge them? Put on your MBA corporate America hat. Why not a merger?

No doubt ATSG is a "good company" with good people, but I think the above are indeed fair questions.

Just some things I would ask if I was able to....

LINK: https://edge.media-server.com/mmc/p/hwkhxic6

2-See below
3- Amazon is by far from being the only wagon to which ATSG is hitched. Top 3 customers are US Gov (Omni), DHL and Amazon. MRO business and ground services businesses are both growing (LGSTX and Airborne)
1,2,,4- Yes it has hurt. That is the primary reason for the stuck stock price. Much of the revenue gains for the past 2 years have been Omni and Amazon driven. Another issue is lack of conversion slots for all of the birds we have waiting.
5-Unknown
6-Dont want to merge - It is my understanding that we want to remain separate; they have separate unions and there are other factors. Not sure what they all are. ATSG has not interest in merging them; strategy is to keep them separate much in the way airlines like have 2 aircraft suppliers. If one strikes, as ABX did, then ATI gets the flying, as they did.

N390AA B763 landed SNN within last 45 mins. Due departure tomorrow to CVG mid-morning. cheers!

HRL a new station

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/ATN ... /KCVG/KHRL
https://www.facebook.com/flythevalley

BTVB6Flyer wrote:

HRL a new station

Another ATI 767-300 destination. Fantastic!

BTVB6Flyer wrote:

HRL a new station

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/ATN ... /KCVG/KHRL
https://www.facebook.com/flythevalley

Plane spent all day on the ground. Came in around 930 in the morning and left around 1030 at night. It didn’t operate today. Was yesterday just a testing day to get ground crew ready or just a one off?

Delta28L wrote:

BTVB6Flyer wrote:

HRL a new station

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/ATN ... /KCVG/KHRL
https://www.facebook.com/flythevalley

Plane spent all day on the ground. Came in around 930 in the morning and left around 1030 at night. It didn’t operate today. Was yesterday just a testing day to get ground crew ready or just a one off?

It’s actually a DHL run that Amazon is operating via ATI... So expect early am arrivals with evening departures


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Does Amazon rely on DHL that much that they will cover a DHL run? Just curious the dynamics here. Is Amazon by way of ATI actually moving DHL freight? It looks like it’s a Prime Air bird but with an ATI repo flight number. Very weird. Heard that there might be some more of these flights in the future so would be curious to know what the freight is.

Re the ATI flight from CVG-HRL.

Whatever it is, it's a weird arrangement for a variety of reasons.

ABX was running a flight CVG-HRL for DHL, flight ABX507. It is usually flown with a 767-200.
This flight is ATN507. So this is that formerly-ABX flight, being run by ATI, but with a 763.
507 is not an Amazon flight number.

Curiously, Amazon-dry-leased 767-300s are being used for the service. ATI can't use the Amazon-dry-leased aircraft at its own discretion. Amazon has exclusive use of the aircraft. Of course, Amazon can direct ATI to use the aircraft as Amazon wishes, and/or DHL/ATSG/Amazon can work out any arrangement they want to, and that is what would have had to have happened here.

So, as bizarre as that post seemed when I first read it, it appears to be accurate. (Or, at least, the flights are being run with Amazon's permission.)

Not for nothing, but there was a previous side letter or informal agreement between the ABX pilots and ATSG that only ABX, not ATI or any other carrier that ATSG would ever acquire, would operate 767s for DHL on the CVG ramp. And ATSG honored it. I believe it has now expired, but the simple fact is that over time there were very few occasions where that happened, and only when the Teamsters allowed it to happen temporarily because of some kind of emergency. ATI doesn't have but one 767-300 of its own that isn't dry-leased to Amazon (N395CM), and it flies military and as a spare for Amazon. Right now, interestingly-enough, it is flying for Amazon. ABX is going to be getting shortly two more 767s to fly for DHL, presumably two of the 9 DHL-owned 767-200s formerly flown by Atlas, several of which have been transferred by DHL from Atlas to Amerijet to operate, so getting those two aircraft to fly may keep the ABX pilots from becoming unhappy about what is doubtless a short-term arrangement regarding this Harlingen run.

Looking at the ABX fleet situation, it appears that it is essentially fully-committed and apparently couldn't cover this flight, and I guess DHL didn't have anybody else to cover it. N740AX (762) went into scheduled maintenance on 4/26/21, and N220CY (763) has been at TPA for maint since 3/11/21. ABX was long on aircraft pre-COVID, but DHL has been using ABX to do a good bit of regular international work, which has kept its fleet fully-utilized if you allow for required C-checks, such as are being done on 740AX and 220CY. Perhaps this ATI/Amazon service for DHL will end when 220CY comes out of maintenance, or when DHL can arrange for a different carrier to cover it. Amerijet has been trying to pick up a lot of DHL work, and they have a 763 that's in maint at VQQ that should be coming out relatively-soon as well. And I believe that at least one of the 762s that Atlas was flying is currently in conformity. So it stands to reason that metal from elsewhere should be available relatively-soon to cover this route.

Fascinating, though. Amazon is bringing on aircraft that it may not have total need for immediately, and they're monitizing one of them, or at least doing a favor for one of their vendors.

ATI and ABX co-support each other with aircraft (when available) in the scenario where one or the others aircraft goes down and the other provides a spare. Again this happens when the other sister company has lift available to cover the other's need. Rare, but it happens.

It would make sense for Amazon ,on occasion, to allow use of an aircraft that is spare at the moment to help out. One never knows when Amazon might need an aircraft or two to cover something. Receiving a little revenue would be a plus also.

Agreed, guys, but the way it has heretofore always worked is that ABX uses basically any of its -200s on Amazon as convenient for ABX, but never uses any of the Amazon 767-200s on anything other than Amazon. It's the difference between a pool of cars that you own and are renting, and asking me to borrow my car so you can rent it to somebody.

I agree that ABX and ATI cover each other ON AMAZON from time to time (as does GTI). What they do NOT do is use an Amazon aircraft for any purpose other than Amazon. Ever. So this is new.

And there's the added wrinkle that the ABX pilots, perhaps until recently, believed that the DHL ramp at CVG was entirely-theirs as to ATSG 767 operations. Very, very, very rarely was approval ever granted to allow ATI to fly any DHL flights with a 767 out of CVG, and then only temporarily. 757s were regularly operated by ATI in DHL service, but not 767s.

I wouldn't be surprised to find, in fact, that it's as the original poster said: DHL contracted with AMAZON to fly the HRL route for it, and Amazon assigned an ATI-operated Amazon 763 to do it.

N390AA B763 is back stateside after routing SNN-CVG-ILN today. Curious why she didn't clear Customs at CVG? Did they at SNN for USA purposes? Short visit to CVG today - about 14-15 mins total. Cheers!

stretch8 wrote:

N390AA B763 is back stateside after routing SNN-CVG-ILN today. Curious why she didn't clear Customs at CVG? Did they at SNN for USA purposes? Short visit to CVG today - about 14-15 mins total. Cheers!

That's interesting, looks like they exited 36R after landing, taxied right back down to the piano keys of 36R and took off for ILN. I would presume that they cleared customs at SNN then, and maybe the CVG stop was just a formality? Might have to land at a designated airport with certain facilities after utilizing Preclearance abroad? Could be wrong on that though, just a guess.

wjcandee wrote:

I wouldn't be surprised to find, in fact, that it's as the original poster said: DHL contracted with AMAZON to fly the HRL route for it, and Amazon assigned an ATI-operated Amazon 763 to do it.

Supporting this theory is the fact that GTI ran the route for a while with one of its 767-200s (N650GT) which is now in MLB, I believe for conformity for Amerijet. So DHL reached out to Amazon, maybe?

The hole in the DHL 767-200 fleet is evinced by the status of the Atlas-operated 767-200s, owned by DHL, which are rumoured to be going to ABX and Amerijet. (Amerijet already is operating the 4 GE-powered ones that were previously operated by Atlas.)

650GT -- At MLB, apparently for conformity for Amerijet
651GT -- Seems still to be operated by Atlas
652GT -- At CWF since 4/11/21. Paint? (Seems like a long time for paint.) Avionics? Conformity?
653GT -- At MIA since 5/1/21. At Amerijet?
655GT -- Running by Atlas for DHL.

N229AZ handed over to Amazon yesterday.

I wonder if Amazon has, for the moment, reached its limit of aircraft needed? I dunno just a WAG.

travaz wrote:

I wonder if Amazon has, for the moment, reached its limit of aircraft needed? I dunno just a WAG.

It's a good question, but they have another 7 767-300s coming this year for the US, at least, so probably not.

That is, they have another 6 going to be leased from CAM (well, there was one that started flying early this morning (May 8 2021), N229AZ, so 5 more out of the 11 from CAM this year.

And they have at least 2 Amazon-owned aircraft also to be added in the US this year, of which one recently went into service. The other two of the Westjet Four apparently are going to Cargojet in Canada, for operation by them.

Appears N321CM B763 today, has taken over LAX-HNL-LAX route from N399CM B763. Will N399CM be making a visit to ILN? cheers!

Is this the first revenue ETOPS flight for Northern/Aloha? Does N399CM get transferred to the NAC certificate?

stretch8 wrote:

Appears N321CM B763 today, has taken over LAX-HNL-LAX route from N399CM B763. Will N399CM be making a visit to ILN? cheers!

N399CM has been dry-leased to NAC (Aloha Cargo) the whole time, just with ATI as the operator. NAC has for some reason been using YHM as its maintenance provider recently, so apparently that's why it is being flown there. I guess they're going to do the conformity work for NAC, taking it off the ATI certificate and putting it on the NAC certificate.

Amazon started two new stations today using 737s. AFW-RIC-PIT-AFW and LAL-MCI-LAL are the new routes. PIT and MCI are new stations.

N393AN (N233AZ?) handed over to Amazon yesterday.

Delta28L wrote:

Amazon started two new stations today using 737s. AFW-RIC-PIT-AFW and LAL-MCI-LAL are the new routes. PIT and MCI are new stations.

And the network keeps filling-out! Also having MCI in the network is helpful, because SCX has its aircraft serviced there.

wjcandee wrote:

Delta28L wrote:

Amazon started two new stations today using 737s. AFW-RIC-PIT-AFW and LAL-MCI-LAL are the new routes. PIT and MCI are new stations.

And the network keeps filling-out! Also having MCI in the network is helpful, because SCX has its aircraft serviced there.

In addition to ATS in PAE.

sunking737 wrote:

wjcandee wrote:

Delta28L wrote:

Amazon started two new stations today using 737s. AFW-RIC-PIT-AFW and LAL-MCI-LAL are the new routes. PIT and MCI are new stations.

And the network keeps filling-out! Also having MCI in the network is helpful, because SCX has its aircraft serviced there.

In addition to ATS in PAE.

Correcto! (I think you turned me onto this, in fact.) ATS in both places: PAE and the cool ex-TWA hangars in MCI.

MO11 wrote:

N393AN (N233AZ?) handed over to Amazon yesterday.

Yes! And as N233AZ, she flew a revenue flight to Seattle last night and back today from ILN. 5/13/21.

In the past 2 days, two of the ATI Amazon-dry-leased 767-200s have come back into service.

N714AX was at SBD since 3/18, apparently for new-station training and came back into service yesterday (5/12/21).

N763CX was at RFD since 3/16, apparently being worked on by AAR. I heard something about landing gear. It ferried back to ILN today (5/13/21).

Since both are in the class of aircraft that will get the new ATI livery, it would be cool if one or both used a non-typical painter to apply it while they were not flying. (ATSG usually uses Dean Baldwin or Landlocked Aviation. AeroPro does do painting in SBD; not sure who if anyone could do a 767 in RFD.)

N714AX B762, which was at SBD for Amazon training, routed ONT-CVG today May 13, 2021 arriving mid-morning. cheers!

I take it that N233AZ is still in the all grey paint from conversion? I don’t recall it going to paint. N390AA(N239AZ) will also be all grey and bouncing around the Amazon system before paint. Seems to be a theme here.

I can’t remember if it was discussed but N391AA(N241AZ), N397AN (N251AZ) and N398AN(N257AZ) will become the last Amazon planes for CAM.

Still leaves N569AZ to be delivered from Amazon.

wjcandee wrote:

MO11 wrote:

N393AN (N233AZ?) handed over to Amazon yesterday.

Yes! And as N233AZ, she flew a revenue flight to Seattle last night and back today from ILN. 5/13/21.

Can confirm both are still in their original ATI paint. Nothing new. Bummer.

wjcandee wrote:

In the past 2 days, two of the ATI Amazon-dry-leased 767-200s have come back into service.

N714AX was at SBD since 3/18, apparently for new-station training and came back into service yesterday (5/12/21).

N763CX was at RFD since 3/16, apparently being worked on by AAR. I heard something about landing gear. It ferried back to ILN today (5/13/21).

Since both are in the class of aircraft that will get the new ATI livery, it would be cool if one or both used a non-typical painter to apply it while they were not flying. (ATSG usually uses Dean Baldwin or Landlocked Aviation. AeroPro does do painting in SBD; not sure who if anyone could do a 767 in RFD.)

Also hearing that there will be a SBD-MCI-SBD route on a 76 soon. Not sure who will operate it.

Delta28L wrote:

Amazon started two new stations today using 737s. AFW-RIC-PIT-AFW and LAL-MCI-LAL are the new routes. PIT and MCI are new stations.

autopiloton wrote:

I can’t remember if it was discussed but N391AA(N241AZ), N397AN (N251AZ) and N398AN(N257AZ) will become the last Amazon planes for CAM.
Still leaves N569AZ to be delivered from Amazon.

The future tail numbers and identity of those that will go to Amazon as opposed to other customers haven't been revealed here before, so thanks!

As you say, that would complete the 12-aircraft deal announced last summer, with one of those delivered last year.

Pretty-remarkable that Amazon trusted CAM to source, convert, and field 11 aircraft this year on 10-year leases and ATI to onboard, staff, and operate 13 767s in one year. That's no small feat. And it looks like they're on-target to do just that.

(Also remarkable that on top of those, there are 3 aircraft currently at TLV that will be going to non-Amazon customers this year, and 2 more which may go over soon. I don't remember what the conference call guidance was on total newly-converted aircraft expected to be leased out this year by CAM, but it's significant.)

I'm not sure that it's a done deal that Amazon will never again lease another aircraft from CAM, although I'm not sure that's what you're suggesting. No question that at Amazon's cost of capital it makes a lot of sense to start buying its own, but that doesn't mean that CAM's expertise, and perhaps more-importantly its allotment of conversion slots, might not have some future appeal to Amazon. And, from the conference call, the number of aircraft that CAM thinks they're going to convert in 2022 and 2023 hints that there may be more Amazon in the future. Or maybe not -- there's a big demand out there for the 767-300 all of a sudden, and CAM has really more experience in the 767 sourcing and converting space than anybody, which is remarkable. One interesting thing from the conference call was also that customers are making firm orders 2 or more years into the future, which hasn't been the norm, and it seems like those are non-Amazon customers.