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MajMattMason
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Mon Mar 08, 2021 8:54 pm

Warrants exercised by AMZ

“ATSG announced that Amazon chose to exercise warrants that we committed to issue to them in 2016. After regulatory review, we expect Amazon to become our largest shareholder with approximately 19.5% of ATSG shares.”

Next up....AAWW??
 
jbs2886
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Mon Mar 08, 2021 9:31 pm

MajMattMason wrote:
Warrants exercised by AMZ

“ATSG announced that Amazon chose to exercise warrants that we committed to issue to them in 2016. After regulatory review, we expect Amazon to become our largest shareholder with approximately 19.5% of ATSG shares.”

Next up....AAWW??


Previously Amazon sold warrants exercised that took them above 4.99% ownership, which triggers different accounting and regulatory issues. I'm curious if Amazon decides to hold 19.5% of shares considering the sale of other warrants exercised was only late last year.

Edit, looks like Amazon will retain that ownership.

"Amazon spent $131 million to acquire about 13.5 million shares of Air Transport Services Group Inc., the air cargo operator said in a securities filing on Monday, exercising warrants Amazon had previously acquired. Amazon also acquired roughly 865,000 additional shares through an agreement in which no cash changed hands. The purchases are contingent upon approval by the U.S. Department of Transportation, ATSG said."

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/amazon-s ... 47815.html
 
GoodRide
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Mon Mar 08, 2021 10:06 pm

 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Mon Mar 08, 2021 10:52 pm

There was no way Amazon wasn't going to do this. They're exercising warrants for about 13.5 million shares. The warrant exercise price is like $9/share. ATSG is trading at like $29 (and I remember when it was under a buck). So that's a $20/share profit times 13.5 million shares, or about $270 million profit. That's a gigantic pile of money, even to an Amazon.

And they had to do it by right around now or the warrants were going to expire.
 
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Spacepope
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Mon Mar 08, 2021 11:52 pm

GoodRide wrote:
https://cargofacts.com/allposts/business/strategy/amazon-foregoes-atlas-air-board-seat-by-keeping-holdings-low/

Re: AAWW


Hey since Cargofacts is usually behind a paywall and most of us aren't gonna fork over that kind of money as enthusiasts, could you provide a little synopsis of what's going on in the link?
 
jbs2886
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:02 am

Spacepope wrote:
GoodRide wrote:
https://cargofacts.com/allposts/business/strategy/amazon-foregoes-atlas-air-board-seat-by-keeping-holdings-low/

Re: AAWW


Hey since Cargofacts is usually behind a paywall and most of us aren't gonna fork over that kind of money as enthusiasts, could you provide a little synopsis of what's going on in the link?


I confused AAWW and ATSG, meaning the sale of stock after exercise of warrants was for AAWW.
 
autopiloton
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:28 am

Wondering what they paid for each of the 11 aircraft they bought. If they just sell the stock for 270 million it could easily fund some if not all of the purchase. I’m not financially savvy so not sure if that’s even possible but would be good business if it is.

wjcandee wrote:
There was no way Amazon wasn't going to do this. They're exercising warrants for about 13.5 million shares. The warrant exercise price is like $9/share. ATSG is trading at like $29 (and I remember when it was under a buck). So that's a $20/share profit times 13.5 million shares, or about $270 million profit. That's a gigantic pile of money, even to an Amazon.

And they had to do it by right around now or the warrants were going to expire.
 
USAirKid
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Tue Mar 09, 2021 5:32 am

autopiloton wrote:
Wondering what they paid for each of the 11 aircraft they bought. If they just sell the stock for 270 million it could easily fund some if not all of the purchase. I’m not financially savvy so not sure if that’s even possible but would be good business if it is.

wjcandee wrote:
There was no way Amazon wasn't going to do this. They're exercising warrants for about 13.5 million shares. The warrant exercise price is like $9/share. ATSG is trading at like $29 (and I remember when it was under a buck). So that's a $20/share profit times 13.5 million shares, or about $270 million profit. That's a gigantic pile of money, even to an Amazon.

And they had to do it by right around now or the warrants were going to expire.


Money is fungable, so amazon made $270 million in profit and spent some money on buying planes. Which profits funded what isn't really a major issue. (This presumes that all of this happened within the same legal entity, e.g. Amazon, Inc. vs Amazon Services LLC, etc. If there was some entity crossing there may have been some cross division investment or loans, but ultimately thats an exercise for liability and tax reasons.)
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Tue Mar 09, 2021 5:37 am

USAirKid wrote:
autopiloton wrote:
Wondering what they paid for each of the 11 aircraft they bought. If they just sell the stock for 270 million it could easily fund some if not all of the purchase. I’m not financially savvy so not sure if that’s even possible but would be good business if it is.

wjcandee wrote:
There was no way Amazon wasn't going to do this. They're exercising warrants for about 13.5 million shares. The warrant exercise price is like $9/share. ATSG is trading at like $29 (and I remember when it was under a buck). So that's a $20/share profit times 13.5 million shares, or about $270 million profit. That's a gigantic pile of money, even to an Amazon.

And they had to do it by right around now or the warrants were going to expire.


Money is fungable, so amazon made $270 million in profit and spent some money on buying planes. Which profits funded what isn't really a major issue. (This presumes that all of this happened within the same legal entity, e.g. Amazon, Inc. vs Amazon Services LLC, etc. If there was some entity crossing there may have been some cross division investment or loans, but ultimately thats an exercise for liability and tax reasons.)


At the moment, it's probably just a paper profit, because they haven't sold the shares, and say they plan to hold them. So they now have 270 million reasons to work to keep ATSG running strong. They put like $135 million of real money into ATSG. So at the moment, they have bought airplanes, and they have bought stock in ATSG. Both cash outflows. Now the ATSG stock is presently-trading at 3 times what ATSG paid for it, so it's a smart expenditure of money, but an expenditure nonetheless.
 
autopiloton
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Tue Mar 09, 2021 6:49 am

N503AZ should be coming out of paint today and heading to ILN for conformity. I also heard that N739AX was getting its paint slot moved up to after its C check..so any day now. Maybe replacing N376ANs original paint slot? It would be the second 200 in the new ATI livery.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:19 am

autopiloton wrote:
N503AZ should be coming out of paint today and heading to ILN for conformity. I also heard that N739AX was getting its paint slot moved up to after its C check..so any day now. Maybe replacing N376ANs original paint slot? It would be the second 200 in the new ATI livery.


Great info! Thanks! Probably right about 739. OR, they love the reaction to N255CM!
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Wed Mar 10, 2021 5:07 am

So 767-300 N227AZ is officially on the move tonight! This is the former N388AA, which was back from TLV conversion around January 18, then got worked on at ILN, went for paint at ROW, and has been back from paint since 2/27/21 (so 10 days). And tonight's her first revenue flight, from ILN to SEA. Woo-hoo! https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N227AZ

Interestingly, she was originally marked down for a little later in the order of the first 5 of 2021, but now she's going to work a little-sooner. All 5 are supposed to be in service by the end of March. 227AZ is the second currently-flying 2021 767-300. She's really the 4th, but the other two went in service and then came back out to be painted and such. The others we will see this month will be N381AN (which will be N479AZ, currently in paint in ROW), N499AZ (which flew temporarily in AA livery but then went to GUS for paint), and N385AM, which will end up being N229AZ.

Since N503AZ will be going on the ATI certificate, we'll see her as soon as she's done with conformity and Amazon wants her in the air. She's still in paint at VCV, where she has been for a little over two weeks (16 days), and our friend autopiloton indicates that she should be heading to ILN soon. So we could see 6 or more new-for-2021 aircraft in the air by the end-ish of March.
 
alpine1989
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Wed Mar 10, 2021 1:24 pm

How long before Amazon is selling public charters operated by Omni?

Alpine
 
ILNFlyer
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Wed Mar 10, 2021 3:42 pm

wjcandee wrote:
So 767-300 N227AZ is officially on the move tonight! This is the former N388AA, which was back from TLV conversion around January 18, then got worked on at ILN, went for paint at ROW, and has been back from paint since 2/27/21 (so 10 days). And tonight's her first revenue flight, from ILN to SEA. Woo-hoo! https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N227AZ

Interestingly, she was originally marked down for a little later in the order of the first 5 of 2021, but now she's going to work a little-sooner. All 5 are supposed to be in service by the end of March. 227AZ is the second currently-flying 2021 767-300. She's really the 4th, but the other two went in service and then came back out to be painted and such. The others we will see this month will be N381AN (which will be N479AZ, currently in paint in ROW), N499AZ (which flew temporarily in AA livery but then went to GUS for paint), and N385AM, which will end up being N229AZ.

Since N503AZ will be going on the ATI certificate, we'll see her as soon as she's done with conformity and Amazon wants her in the air. She's still in paint at VCV, where she has been for a little over two weeks (16 days), and our friend autopiloton indicates that she should be heading to ILN soon. So we could see 6 or more new-for-2021 aircraft in the air by the end-ish of March.


Thank you for that update. As always, great info.
 
MO11
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Wed Mar 10, 2021 4:23 pm

Cargo Aircraft Management bought JA606A yesterday (N391CM)
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Wed Mar 10, 2021 5:19 pm

MO11 wrote:
Cargo Aircraft Management bought JA606A yesterday (N391CM)


Thanks! Surprised it took this long. I had been regularly-checking the serial number for transfer to the US registry. Thanks for being on top of it, as always!

She has FADEC engines, so not clear who CAM will lease her to.
 
USAirKid
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Wed Mar 10, 2021 6:26 pm

alpine1989 wrote:
How long before Amazon is selling public charters operated by Omni?

Alpine


I give this a 0% to 5% chance of this happening.

Amazon likes a business where it can differentiate and they’re not adverse to low margin businesses, but they’re also not stupid. I’m sure Amazon is aware of how much money starting a passenger airline business can take, and they’ve definitely heard of Warren Buffet’s line that if a capitalist was at Kitty Hawk they should’ve done everyone a favor and shot Wilbur and Orville.

It’s also telling that Amazon •aunched a white labeled Expedia resale business in 2001, that they’re no longer operating. One of the things Amazon is most successful at is being a reseller, and they couldn’t make that business work to the point where it justified the resources they’d have to put into it. I’m sure they looked at acquiring Kayak and Hipmunk, they didn’t.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Wed Mar 10, 2021 6:43 pm

Also, the public charter business is largely-dead. There are a few routes that make it work, and Omni's primary customer in this regard, who operated a successful Las Vegas to Hawaii business, will likely come back some time this year. But given the proliferation of ULCCs and low-fare availability on the majors, the fare difference to arbitrage just isn't typically there anymore. Sometimes there's an odd international underserved lane that this can work on, say a couple of times a week during the summer, but it's a very-niche business that often ends in tears for the charter sponsor.
 
stretch8
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:04 pm

Any word when N503AZ B763 at VCV is heading to ILN? Assuming she's been painted. Noticed N227AZ B763 did ILN-SEA March 10, 2021, & SEA-ILN March 11, 2021 - her 1st & 2nd missions with Amazon. She's still at ILN, so maybe she has a few "fix-me" issues? cheers!
 
travaz
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:40 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Also, the public charter business is largely-dead. There are a few routes that make it work, and Omni's primary customer in this regard, who operated a successful Las Vegas to Hawaii business, will likely come back some time this year. But given the proliferation of ULCCs and low-fare availability on the majors, the fare difference to arbitrage just isn't typically there anymore. Sometimes there's an odd international underserved lane that this can work on, say a couple of times a week during the summer, but it's a very-niche business that often ends in tears for the charter sponsor.


Asking because I don't know. Isn't Omni mostly military charters?
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:44 pm

stretch8 wrote:
Any word when N503AZ B763 at VCV is heading to ILN? Assuming she's been painted. Noticed N227AZ B763 did ILN-SEA March 10, 2021, & SEA-ILN March 11, 2021 - her 1st & 2nd missions with Amazon. She's still at ILN, so maybe she has a few "fix-me" issues? cheers!


I look every day at 503AZ because IAC ought to be able to complete that assignment in 2 weeks or less. It's Amazon's first owned aircraft, so maybe there's something special about the process that is taking a smidge longer than usual.

As to 227AZ, it's possible she needs a tweak or two, or it could just be that the schedule doesn't demand all these aircraft yet. Or a little of both. We will probably see her moving again soon.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:48 pm

travaz wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
Also, the public charter business is largely-dead. There are a few routes that make it work, and Omni's primary customer in this regard, who operated a successful Las Vegas to Hawaii business, will likely come back some time this year. But given the proliferation of ULCCs and low-fare availability on the majors, the fare difference to arbitrage just isn't typically there anymore. Sometimes there's an odd international underserved lane that this can work on, say a couple of times a week during the summer, but it's a very-niche business that often ends in tears for the charter sponsor.


Asking because I don't know. Isn't Omni mostly military charters?


You are correct. However, they do have some good commercial track-charter business, most notably to Hawaii. And they do get their share of corporate group charters, state department charters, etc. The tour package track-charter business and corporate group business just vaporized about a year ago.
 
autopiloton
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Sat Mar 13, 2021 5:32 am

Well apparently the information I was given was wrong. Looks like N739AX is scheduled to ATL tonight so it won’t be going to paint after C-check and N503AZ hasn’t left for ILN yet. Constantly changing schedules I guess.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Sat Mar 13, 2021 5:55 am

autopiloton wrote:
Well apparently the information I was given was wrong. Looks like N739AX is scheduled to ATL tonight so it won’t be going to paint after C-check and N503AZ hasn’t left for ILN yet. Constantly changing schedules I guess.


Always. Thanks for sharing the info with us, though. Fun to know what the current plan is, even if it ends up changing!
 
MO11
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Sat Mar 13, 2021 2:16 pm

N499AZ leased to Amazon yesterday.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Sat Mar 13, 2021 6:20 pm

MO11 wrote:
N499AZ leased to Amazon yesterday.


Thanks! I noticed that it started flying for Amazon (again) overnight.

What's interesting about this is that apparently, then, the Amazon service that she did from 1/24/21 until she went to GUS must have been as a charter. I guess Amazon really needed her. It's all paperwork, of course, but to renumber her and then run her for Amazon for a couple of weeks without leasing her to Amazon first...someone was indeed in a hurry.
 
rudywilliams
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Sat Mar 13, 2021 7:39 pm

N503AZ scheduled to ILN today.
 
stretch8
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:39 pm

N503AZ B763 VCV-ILN in air, due ILN at 2050L. Hopefully, some extra color! cheers!
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:51 pm

rudywilliams wrote:
N503AZ scheduled to ILN today.


Thanks for that heads-up! And she's on the way now.

About time. Remarkable that IAC would take 3 weeks to paint a 767. It's always 14 days at the two contractors that ATSG uses. Good point by Stretch8 that maybe this means some extra color on her, since she's the first Amazon-owned one.

Regardless, so happy to see the first Amazon-owned 767 headed into conformity for ATI.

(Side note: DL in particular is painting planes like crazy. Right now at GUS, Dean Baldwin has at least 4 lines going for them, with the 5th one being used to paint a recently-acquired-by-UPS MD11 that flew up from SAT after a heavy-check at VT San Antonio; apparently Dean Baldwin didn't have availability in its VT-connected SAT facility, so the MD11 went to their shop in GUS instead. Landlocked has at least two lines going on DL alone. ROW seems busy. And on and on.)

(Side side note: The UPS MD11 being painted at GUS is N263UP, which UPS acquired from Lufthansa Cargo in November 2020, and sent to SAT on December 9, 2020. Finished up in SAT on March 1, 2021 (almost 3 months), then off to paint. VERY COOL that present circumstances have UPS bringing aboard good-quality MD11s still. They're a solid freight-hauler, when they're properly-maintained.)
 
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1337Delta764
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Sat Mar 13, 2021 10:05 pm

wjcandee wrote:
rudywilliams wrote:
N503AZ scheduled to ILN today.


Thanks for that heads-up! And she's on the way now.

About time. Remarkable that IAC would take 3 weeks to paint a 767. It's always 14 days at the two contractors that ATSG uses. Good point by Stretch8 that maybe this means some extra color on her, since she's the first Amazon-owned one.

Regardless, so happy to see the first Amazon-owned 767 headed into conformity for ATI.

(Side note: DL in particular is painting planes like crazy. Right now at GUS, Dean Baldwin has at least 4 lines going for them, with the 5th one being used to paint a recently-acquired-by-UPS MD11 that flew up from SAT after a heavy-check at VT San Antonio; apparently Dean Baldwin didn't have availability in its VT-connected SAT facility, so the MD11 went to their shop in GUS instead. Landlocked has at least two lines going on DL alone. ROW seems busy. And on and on.)

(Side side note: The UPS MD11 being painted at GUS is N263UP, which UPS acquired from Lufthansa Cargo in November 2020, and sent to SAT on December 9, 2020. Finished up in SAT on March 1, 2021 (almost 3 months), then off to paint. VERY COOL that present circumstances have UPS bringing aboard good-quality MD11s still. They're a solid freight-hauler, when they're properly-maintained.)


Interesting that all aircraft are being referred to as female in this thread.

I always considered the DC-10/MD-11 family masculine due to their straight-through tail mounted engine. This is in contrast with the L-1011 family which I consider more feminine with its engine in an S-duct.

For the 767 I consider the 762 male, but the 763 and 764 I consider female (the proportions of the aircraft seem make the difference).
 
dcs921
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Sun Mar 14, 2021 12:04 am

From our friends at West Cost Aviation. N503AZ does not appear to have any extra colors on it.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CMXsqvzBrXO/?igshid=llndamqqp6xm
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Sun Mar 14, 2021 12:22 am

Thanks, dcs921! Then IAC just took their time with it...
 
stretch8
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Sun Mar 14, 2021 1:41 am

N503AZ B763 VCV-ILN landed just before 2000L. Thanks for info on additional colors! cheers!
 
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VCVSpotter
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Sun Mar 14, 2021 5:32 am

Good evening everyone, I'm finally finishing up my photos and analysis from earlier today and tackling the forums. Thanks to dcs921 for sharing my photo, it's very appreciated! :)
I was just 150ft away from N503AZ while she was taxiing to the runway and I couldn't pick out any additional colors or livery changes on either side of the aircraft (and when it's a 763 on a tight taxiway, you tend to be able to pick out the details and smell the jet fuel :lol: ).
IAC just wanted her to look really good I guess. And she does. If you didn't know that she was nearly 30 years old, you could've sworn that she was a brand new plane.
 
stretch8
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Mon Mar 15, 2021 12:16 am

SE-RLA B762 West Atlantic is out of hangar at ILN now wearing N747AX, & is a white whale. Anyone know if she's going back on ABX duty, or maybe off to join N742AX as a lease to Astral? cheers!
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Mon Mar 15, 2021 1:25 am

stretch8 wrote:
SE-RLA B762 West Atlantic is out of hangar at ILN now wearing N747AX, & is a white whale. Anyone know if she's going back on ABX duty, or maybe off to join N742AX as a lease to Astral? cheers!


And SE-RLB has been reregistered to its old number, which is N745AX. I am quite curious as to the plan for them, but I sadly haven't a clue.
 
stretch8
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:27 pm

N381AN / N479AZ B763 is enroute ROW-ILN, scheduled landing 1436L. Apparently, N390AA B763 at TLV flew today for 1 hour! cheers!
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Mon Mar 15, 2021 7:17 pm

stretch8 wrote:
N381AN / N479AZ B763 is enroute ROW-ILN, scheduled landing 1436L. Apparently, N390AA B763 at TLV flew today for 1 hour! cheers!


Thanks for staying so on top of this! Interesting that N381AN flew to ROW, but N479AZ is flying back to ILN. They changed the tail number officially while it was at ROW.

Also interesting that N390AA flew a test flight at TLV today. It arrived about a month after N393AN, which is presently-scheduled to go to Amazon in May as 233AZ but has not yet registered a test flight. They sometimes come out in a different order than they go in. I don't know for sure yet who N390AA is going to.
 
stretch8
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Mon Mar 15, 2021 8:29 pm

ANA9433 B763 is routing HNL-ILN arriving 16 March 2021 at 1023L - scheduled, originated HND. She going to CAM or Amazon? cheers!
 
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Spacepope
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:23 pm

stretch8 wrote:
ANA9433 B763 is routing HNL-ILN arriving 16 March 2021 at 1023L - scheduled, originated HND. She going to CAM or Amazon? cheers!


CAM's Amazon fleet is all non-FADEC engines, and the ANA 767s are FADEC. Likely not to CAM for Amazon service, but potentially for Cam to dry lease out like the FADEC-equipped ones they have out at UPS.
 
wjcandee
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Mon Mar 15, 2021 11:28 pm

Spacepope wrote:
stretch8 wrote:
ANA9433 B763 is routing HNL-ILN arriving 16 March 2021 at 1023L - scheduled, originated HND. She going to CAM or Amazon? cheers!

CAM's Amazon fleet is all non-FADEC engines, and the ANA 767s are FADEC. Likely not to CAM for Amazon service, but potentially for Cam to dry lease out like the FADEC-equipped ones they have out at UPS.


Correct historically. Although Planespotters lists the two ex-DL, ex-Gulf Air aircraft that CAM bought from DL and dry-leases to Amazon (flown by ATI) [1501P=N409AZ; 153DL=N449AZ] as having FADEC, they do not. Instead, they have CF6-80C2B4 engines. (I question whether they're B4 or B6, but, regardless, they don't have FADEC.) http://www.deltamuseum.org/docs/site/ai ... f?sfvrsn=2


Question, though: Amazon plainly is planning on placing at least 2 of the ex-Westjet aircraft with ATI to operate. In other words, two of the aircraft that they have purchased directly and are not leasing. The Westjets, being ex-Qantas, have the CF6-80C2B6 without FADEC. So far, so good.

Does this continued-consistency mean that we should infer that no FADEC-equipped 767-300 conversion will be leased to Amazon by CAM or flown by ATI for Amazon?

In The Beginning, that might have been a fair inference. As you know, Titan/Andromeda went out and bought a mishmash of completely-FADEC aircraft to convert for Titan to lease to Amazon and for Atlas to operate for Amazon. (The two current white-tail Atlas maintenance spares are PW, but that's another story.) And CAM went out and bought a consistent fleet of non-FADEC 767-300s from some top-notch airlines (notably AA (11), Qantas (3), ANZ (5) and DL (2)) to lease to Amazon and for ATI to operate. So, as someone pointed out to me last year, all the Atlas ones that were running for Amazon were FADEC, and all ATI ones that were running for Amazon were non-FADEC. And CAM has continued to acquire, notably from AA but also from ANA, even more non-FADEC aircraft to lease to Amazon and for ATI to operate. And it also went out and found FADEC-engined 767-300s to lease to carriers like UPS that required them.

But, since mid/late 2019, ATI has been flying two FADEC Titan/Andromeda 767-300s (N1049A and N1439A) that were originally flown by Atlas, and I haven't noticed a single comment anywhere from pilots, maintenance folks, or others about this. They just seem to go do their thing without it seeming to be any big deal. I don't think they have been C-checked since they came onto the ATI certificate (although I recall 1439 spending over 2 months at RFD for something, conformity, maybe?), so I don't know how that will be handled or where. But in light of that, I'm wondering if ATI is resigned to running a mixed-fleet of engine types on these aircraft. Certainly, if Amazon offers them (or ABX) the flying on the 7 ex-DL aircraft that Amazon just purchased, all of which sport -80C2B6F engines, I can't see ATSG turning that down. And if that's the case, are we absolutely-sure that the new ANA aircraft won't also be for Amazon?

Me, personally, I think it is significant that CAM is sending another ANA FADEC one [JA606A, now N391CM] to TLV before the last ex-AA 763. So that might be a clue that this airplane is, as you suggest, for a customer of CAM other than Amazon, and that the incoming one might be, too. But given the declining number of good used 767-300s out there in significant fleets, I wonder if we won't see more FADEC aircraft being flown by ATSG for Amazon in the future.
 
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Spacepope
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Mon Mar 15, 2021 11:48 pm

WJC: It's an interesting question as to what the plans for the future might be. So far all of the conversions that CAM have done themselves to be put into service with Amazon have been non-FADEC, The question is now that with a fleet this large is it a) possible to source enough decent aircraft that are non-FADEC and b) as you allude to with the 2 former Atlas birds, is it even really that big of a deal anymore.

CAM has gone from leasing ancient 762s to becoming one of the larger operators of 767s worldwide in a very short time. At that sort of scale, and with their maintenance and engineering backing, I think that it's likely they will be able to handle whatever airframes are presented to them. They certainly wouldn't turn their noses up at flying the ex-DL aircraft just because they're FADEC.

I really need to just start a spreadsheet on these aircraft to keep them all straight. N numbers, when they joined the fleet, last C check, and hours/cycles to track utilization. I'm wondering if things will get interesting as some of the 762s hit their cycle limits.
 
autopiloton
Posts: 104
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Tue Mar 16, 2021 2:05 am

I’m with spacepope..I need a spreadsheet! To that note I’m doing some math and it’s not adding up. Sorry if this has been discussed before.

Amazon/ATSG announced that ATI would be awarded the first six of the twelve CAM leased aircraft. The first aircraft was already being operated and the additional five would be added the first half of 2021.

From what I can see, ATI is on pace to be operating 8 CAM leased aircraft. That would mean that Amazon has awarded ATI two additional CAM aircraft without any formal announcement. The ultimate question is who gets the remaining four? History would say ATI is the likely operator but that would mean adding 13 aircraft in a year! A tough feat to accomplish.
 
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Spacepope
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Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Tue Mar 16, 2021 2:14 am

autopiloton wrote:
I’m with spacepope..I need a spreadsheet! To that note I’m doing some math and it’s not adding up. Sorry if this has been discussed before.

Amazon/ATSG announced that ATI would be awarded the first six of the twelve CAM leased aircraft. The first aircraft was already being operated and the additional five would be added the first half of 2021.

From what I can see, ATI is on pace to be operating 8 CAM leased aircraft. That would mean that Amazon has awarded ATI two additional CAM aircraft without any formal announcement. The ultimate question is who gets the remaining four? History would say ATI is the likely operator but that would mean adding 14 aircraft in a year! A tough feat to accomplish.


Something to work on when I get back from a biz trip I guess.

The 2 mystery frames you’re accounting for are the first 2 of the amazon owned frames, both ex Westjet. There are still 9 of them that amazon owns (2 ex Westjet and 7 ex Delta) that have yet to be awarded, and afaik there are still 6 of the CAM owned aircraft that still haven’t had flying awarded yet.

I might do a google sheet so ambitious contributors here can help with updates
 
autopiloton
Posts: 104
Joined: Fri Feb 28, 2020 4:14 am

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Tue Mar 16, 2021 2:41 am

I like the google sheet idea.

But I am counting 8 CAM leased:
N443AZ- delivered last year
N499AZ (395AN) in operation
N479AZ (381AN) was/soon to be in operation
N491AZ (392AN) in operation
N317AZ (376AN) pushed back
N227AZ (388AA) in operation
N233AZ (393AN) future
N229AZ (385AM) future



Spacepope wrote:
autopiloton wrote:
I’m with spacepope..I need a spreadsheet! To that note I’m doing some math and it’s not adding up. Sorry if this has been discussed before.

Amazon/ATSG announced that ATI would be awarded the first six of the twelve CAM leased aircraft. The first aircraft was already being operated and the additional five would be added the first half of 2021.

From what I can see, ATI is on pace to be operating 8 CAM leased aircraft. That would mean that Amazon has awarded ATI two additional CAM aircraft without any formal announcement. The ultimate question is who gets the remaining four? History would say ATI is the likely operator but that would mean adding 14 aircraft in a year! A tough feat to accomplish.


Something to work on when I get back from a biz trip I guess.

The 2 mystery frames you’re accounting for are the first 2 of the amazon owned frames, both ex Westjet. There are still 9 of them that amazon owns (2 ex Westjet and 7 ex Delta) that have yet to be awarded, and afaik there are still 6 of the CAM owned aircraft that still haven’t had flying awarded yet.

I might do a google sheet so ambitious contributors here can help with updates
 
wjcandee
Posts: 12457
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:42 am

Right, there are the 5 that they said would come by 3/31, all of which would be operated by ATI. Then, you gave us 2 more that were supposed to be operated in May. Voila! 8 of the 12 (or 7 of the 11, if you count it like I do -- this year only). Then, there are two more Amazon-owned ones that ATI will also be getting. So that leaves 4 that haven't been assigned yet: Plus 2 Westjet, plus 7 DL. Amazon said the DL were for next year, but they're already running 2 through conversion at MEX, which means they're for this year.
 
stretch8
Posts: 338
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2005 2:55 am

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:15 pm

JA604A is the ANA B763 landing ILN from HNL this morning. cheers!
 
stretch8
Posts: 338
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2005 2:55 am

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Tue Mar 16, 2021 8:17 pm

N385AM B763 as ATN385, departed 1528L today ILN-ILN for 3 hr maint check flight around IN & OH. Geuss she'll be put into service soon - if not broke on return. cheers!
 
wjcandee
Posts: 12457
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Tue Mar 16, 2021 8:28 pm

Thanks for the updates, Stretch8!! We were thinking N385AM would go into service unpainted tomorrow, to cover for N376AN's longer-than-expected heavy-check at VQQ.

So if she checks out today, I guess we'll see her in Amazon service in the next day or so.
 
autopiloton
Posts: 104
Joined: Fri Feb 28, 2020 4:14 am

Re: Amazon Fleet Discussion - 2021

Wed Mar 17, 2021 7:26 pm

Two ATI aircraft are positioning to BWI under 9xxx numbers. These are the only two I’ve seen reposition so far. There will probably be more tonight between all the carriers. This is in line with the Amazon schedule shift that takes effect tonight/tomorrow.

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