Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
CALMSP wrote:seems as though Amazon is next moving to PIT with 2 flights a day starting date tbd, but would imagine soon as with most of their startups.
B350pilot wrote:N322WS operating as "Jet Test 10" (JTN10) has departed Sanford, FL enroute to Portsmouth, NH KPSM airport.
https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=a377c3
2020 article indicating this tail number is part of ATSG joint venture: https://www.journal-aviation.com/en/new ... n-the-rise
jbs2886 wrote:This is the Amazon thread, are you saying this will join Amazon?
B350pilot wrote:jbs2886 wrote:This is the Amazon thread, are you saying this will join Amazon?
No, just posting a development in the freight aircraft world.
jbs2886 wrote:B350pilot wrote:jbs2886 wrote:This is the Amazon thread, are you saying this will join Amazon?
No, just posting a development in the freight aircraft world.
I suggest this general Air Cargo thread since more people there may be interested: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1456521
wjcandee wrote:I'm glad for the post regardless. I know that many will disagree, but it seems to me that Amazon can't ignore the A321 Precision Conversion despite its current operation of the 738F. If the A321F hits its numbers, it will be a superior package/express freighter. No reason to think that to the extent that Amazon wants additional lift in that capacity range once it opens at CVG, it wouldn't consider this aircraft as well. Lease it from ATSG or buy it, and place it with any operator on a CMI basis. (ATSG says it has no current plans to operate the freighter at one of its airlines, but there is no doubt whatsoever that, if asked to do it on any kind of scale -- 10 aircraft or more I would think -- they'd do it in a heartbeat.)
I think it all depends on whether the A321 Precision Conversion hits its numbers in actual revenue service, which we will have to see.
BTW, looks like Steve and Co. (JetTest) are taking this thing over to SmartLynx Malta now that the STC has been approved.
At the ATSG conference call, they indicated that at the moment the conversions are being performed for non-CAM (i.e. outside ATSG) lessors and airlines. However, CAM is out in the market looking for common-fleet retirements of A321s that would be suitable to convert. If the thing sells, ATSG stands to profit in myriad ways: (1) profit from profits of the joint venture (e.g. selling the conversion kits); (2) profit from owning the conversion house that initially will be the exclusive converter (PEMCO in TPA); (3) potential profit from purchasing, converting, and then leasing out A321s on 10-plus-year leases through CAM, presumably with priority as to conversion slots or at least able to influence the number of conversion slots; (4) all the usual add-ons that ATSG uses its relationship as the lessor to try to get over the course of the lease, like maintenance work, ground handling, CMI contracts, avionics upgrades, etc. If it sells, this is a grand-slam home-run.
wjcandee wrote:Something's up at ILN, maybe Amazon-related, maybe not.
But in the last 24 hours, SIX business jets -- significant ones like GLXs and GL5s -- have arrived at ILN and some have departed.
wjcandee wrote:Something's up at ILN, maybe Amazon-related, maybe not.
But in the last 24 hours, SIX business jets -- significant ones like GLXs and GL5s -- have arrived at ILN and some have departed. 3 were from NetJets, which I don't recall seeing at ILN before.
In the past, I have seen where the Generals come in on one or two mil-owned bizjets to meet with ATSG, or rarely what appears to be normal local usage of one a week and/or Royal Air Freight taking a pilot or executive movement somewhere on one of Royal's pax bizjets. I have even seen a couple of times where the Jetran folks have come from Texas for a visit or where Jetran comes from Texas and picks up the ATSG folks on one of Jetran's longer-range jets and heads over to Japan, presumably to kick the tires on planes or schmooze or finalize deals, and return a few days later.
But I don't think I have ever seen this volume of activity in 24 hours -- SIX significant jets. And where they're coming from and going to don't really give me a clue about what's up. (Often, the inbound or outbound leg is a ferry, so only one matters, and sometimes both legs tell you something, but here...I don't know.) Could be totally-unrelated to ATSG (like Polaris or something), but if it is, it's remarkable.
wjcandee wrote:N521AZ, an Amazon-owned 763 that's likely going to be operated by Cargojet, did a test flight today at TLV. 5/20/21
ILNFlyer wrote:wjcandee wrote:N521AZ, an Amazon-owned 763 that's likely going to be operated by Cargojet, did a test flight today at TLV. 5/20/21
They are certainly diversifying their base of operators.
B350pilot wrote:Once the Airbus 321 comes online, this may give Sun Country a run for its money.
wjcandee wrote:
I agree that Amazon should look at the A321. But Sun Country is sitting pretty regardless.
I'm assuming that the Amazon GECAS leases of the 737-800BCFs are 10-year leases. They took 5, then added 15. They still have options on at least another 15 (20, maybe?). Interestingly, they don't seem to have exercised any more options after the initial 15 options were exercised at the Paris Air Show. As long as Sun Country continues to perform (and they will), they'll be flying those 737-800s for Amazon. Sun Country didn't pay anything for the planes; they just operate them for Amazon, who leases them from GECAS.
IF Amazon should decide to buy/lease some A321s, and if they added them to the US route network, no reason to think that Sun Country couldn't choose to add the type to its certificate. Or, another carrier could choose to do so. But, regardless, as long as Amazon leases those 738s, which they're going to do for a while, Sun Country is good as long as Amazon doesn't do something like send them to Europe instead. But it would be a while before that happened.
B350pilot wrote:Was not aware of that Sun Country did not own the airplanes. Interesting to know.
mcg wrote:It seems to me that Sun Country had a real advantage compared to Southern in that were a long time experienced 738 operator. Sun Country may have had a real disadvantage that their cost structure had to be higher than Southerns cost structure (I assume one impact of those years of experience is generally higher pilot wages).
mcg wrote:It seems to me that Sun Country had a real advantage compared to Southern in that were a long time experienced 738 operator. Sun Country may have had a real disadvantage that their cost structure had to be higher than Southerns cost structure (I assume one impact of those years of experience is generally higher pilot wages).
bmibaby737 wrote:N1611B which has been at MEX since 31st January 2021, presumably for conversion, is now flying MEX-BGR-TLV, departed 24th May and should arrive today (25th May) - did this never enter conversion in MEX? Aircraft is one of the Amazon owned 767s from Delta.
travaz wrote:bmibaby737 wrote:N1611B which has been at MEX since 31st January 2021, presumably for conversion, is now flying MEX-BGR-TLV, departed 24th May and should arrive today (25th May) - did this never enter conversion in MEX? Aircraft is one of the Amazon owned 767s from Delta.
With the FAA downgrading Mexican Aviation to a class 2 safety rating, could this impact the conversion line in MEX?
B350pilot wrote:Four additional CAM 767's to DHL. Operated by ???
https://www.atsginc.com/investors/news- ... 767-leases
wjcandee wrote:travaz wrote:bmibaby737 wrote:N1611B which has been at MEX since 31st January 2021, presumably for conversion, is now flying MEX-BGR-TLV, departed 24th May and should arrive today (25th May) - did this never enter conversion in MEX? Aircraft is one of the Amazon owned 767s from Delta.
With the FAA downgrading Mexican Aviation to a class 2 safety rating, could this impact the conversion line in MEX?
Or DL's facility in QRO?
Probably not, no? If QRO is affected, then we have to ask whether DL's competitors are trying to slow its return to service by using political connections, since the whole thing sounds absurdly-political.
wjcandee wrote:Travaz: n563az and n569az are ahead of it at MEX, and already there over six months. (Arrived 9/23 and 9/28/20, actually, so almost 8 months.)
Perhaps the idea is to move it to TLV and put it in an available slot for completion sooner. For all we know, ATSG gave Amazon an open slot reserved by ATSG, or sold it, or traded it for something. Or IAI just decided it could be done faster at TLV. Or Amazon threatened to go all-BCF if the dang things didn't get moving. (Or none of the above.)
These are the first conversions that Amazon has managed itself. ATSG has been doing it for decades with IAI. We all know that the output of any MRO is substantially-influenced by who it is that the customer has on-premises as a personal representative, and it makes an enormous difference, from rep to rep. So stands to reason there's a learning curve for Amazon. Don't know how much if any that ends up in play here.
travaz wrote:wjcandee wrote:Travaz: n563az and n569az are ahead of it at MEX, and already there over six months. (Arrived 9/23 and 9/28/20, actually, so almost 8 months.)
Perhaps the idea is to move it to TLV and put it in an available slot for completion sooner. For all we know, ATSG gave Amazon an open slot reserved by ATSG, or sold it, or traded it for something. Or IAI just decided it could be done faster at TLV. Or Amazon threatened to go all-BCF if the dang things didn't get moving. (Or none of the above.)
These are the first conversions that Amazon has managed itself. ATSG has been doing it for decades with IAI. We all know that the output of any MRO is substantially-influenced by who it is that the customer has on-premises as a personal representative, and it makes an enormous difference, from rep to rep. So stands to reason there's a learning curve for Amazon. Don't know how much if any that ends up in play here.
Yea I understand MR Candee is just part of my curious nature.
travaz wrote:The most prevalent thought for an A.net forum. Who knows!
stretch8 wrote:N233AZ B763 ILN-ARA this morning. For AZ paint maybe?
wjcandee wrote:stretch8 wrote:N233AZ B763 ILN-ARA this morning. For AZ paint maybe?
AvEx.
Interesting to see CAM spreading the paint work around so much recently, after using Dean Baldwin almost-exclusively for decades.
Presumably 233AZ went to paint because 239AZ (formerly 390AA) went into revenue service last night.
Thank you, as always, Stretch8, for the info!!
MO11 wrote:CAM bought N152DL and C-GSCA yesterday (these may belong in the DHL pile). It sold N712AX yesterday.
wjcandee wrote:
About 712AX, I posted elsewhere yesterday wondering what she was up to. She flew to Midland, TX yesterday. I thought maybe CAM got a decent taker for her as a passenger lease. Guess not. Too bad.
Harvestman wrote:Any recent scuttlebutt on one of wjcandee's Peak Season Heroes, N740AX? Appears to have landed at ILN four weeks ago for...something. Didn't see it today when I stopped by.
wjcandee wrote:About 712AX, I posted elsewhere yesterday wondering what she was up to. She flew to Midland, TX yesterday. I thought maybe CAM got a decent taker for her as a passenger lease. Guess not. Too bad.
MO11 wrote:wjcandee wrote:About 712AX, I posted elsewhere yesterday wondering what she was up to. She flew to Midland, TX yesterday. I thought maybe CAM got a decent taker for her as a passenger lease. Guess not. Too bad.
Didn't go to Midland. It had a clearance to FST 157/39, it descended to 8000 and canceled IFR. Something hinkey there.
MO11 wrote:Didn't go to Midland. It had a clearance to FST 157/39, it descended to 8000 and canceled IFR. Something hinkey there.