Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
Jshank83 wrote:It always does make me chuckle the Ohio thread doesn't include CLE (in Ohio) but does include CVG (not in Ohio). I understand why but still makes me laugh.
DeltaRules wrote:Looks like the mods were as eager to end 2020 as everyone else, and who can blame them? Welcome to the 2021 regional thread for aviation in Ohio (except CLE- more on that later). This is fifth "annual" thread we've had where we've been able to have an ongoing regional hub for the Buckeye State and I'd like to thank everyone for continuing to keep these going and active.!
Jshank83 wrote:It always does make me chuckle the Ohio thread doesn't include CLE (in Ohio) but does include CVG (not in Ohio). I understand why but still makes me laugh.
BNAMealer wrote:Yeah, honestly, CVG and CMH should have their own threads anyway. Their peers do, so why can't they? It makes no sense.
DeltaRules wrote:BNAMealer wrote:Yeah, honestly, CVG and CMH should have their own threads anyway. Their peers do, so why can't they? It makes no sense.
This is brought up every year and, every year, it's established that there's probably not enough discussion to keep individual threads for each of the two airports going plus a place to talk everything else going on in the state. I also follow a thread for smaller airports in Florida (DAB, MLB, GNV, etc.) and it's a struggle to a) find it and b) keep it going; I had to comb the (sometimes miserable to use) search engine when AA announced DAB-DFW/PHL to post the news.
"If it ain't broke", etc.
DeltaRules wrote:BNAMealer wrote:Yeah, honestly, CVG and CMH should have their own threads anyway. Their peers do, so why can't they? It makes no sense.
This is brought up every year and, every year, it's established that there's probably not enough discussion to keep individual threads for each of the two airports going plus a place to talk everything else going on in the state. I also follow a thread for smaller airports in Florida (DAB, MLB, GNV, etc.) and it's a struggle to a) find it and b) keep it going; I had to comb the (sometimes miserable to use) search engine when AA announced DAB-DFW/PHL to post the news.
"If it ain't broke", etc.
edit- I also like seeing what's going on at CVG but probably wouldn't otherwise seek it out unless it were in this thread.
CMHMarc787 wrote:Well, let's ask a few CMH questions for 2021 to get the conversation started:
1. How does CMH bounce back?
2. What routes do we think/know will be coming back?
3. What new routes?
4. What's next for NK? AS?
5. Anyone new coming?
tphuang wrote:I anticipate JetBlue will either enter CMH or CVG this year. I think CMH is more likely, but CVG is possible too.
tphuang wrote:I anticipate JetBlue will either enter CMH or CVG this year. I think CMH is more likely, but CVG is possible too.
If they enter CMH, I anticipate they will add JFK/BOS/EWR/FLL. I think LAX is also possible if AA drops this route. But I think it's more like they start off with their Northeastern focus cities and add 1 Florida airport. The AA codeshare should help make JFK/BOS/EWR work.
CMHMarc787 wrote:Well, let's ask a few CMH questions for 2021 to get the conversation started:
1. How does CMH bounce back?
2. What routes do we think/know will be coming back?
3. What new routes?
4. What's next for NK? AS?
5. Anyone new coming?
September11 wrote:Is Southwest's CMH-LAS nonstop route being suspended?
CMHMarc787 wrote:Well, let's ask a few CMH questions for 2021 to get the conversation started:
1. How does CMH bounce back?
2. What routes do we think/know will be coming back?
3. What new routes?
4. What's next for NK? AS?
5. Anyone new coming?
spdbrd007 wrote:Any update on Alaska Airlines & CVG? They were supposed to start Aug 18th but obviously circumstances prevented that. Has the CVG route been canned for good?
spdbrd007 wrote:Any update on Alaska Airlines & CVG? They were supposed to start Aug 18th but obviously circumstances prevented that. Has the CVG route been canned for good?
Also the Delta 767-300ER CVG-CDG service, any word of when that route will return?
I guess we will continue to daydream longer for nonstop London service.
a320flyer wrote:spdbrd007 wrote:Any update on Alaska Airlines & CVG? They were supposed to start Aug 18th but obviously circumstances prevented that. Has the CVG route been canned for good?
Also the Delta 767-300ER CVG-CDG service, any word of when that route will return?
I guess we will continue to daydream longer for nonstop London service.
DL's CVG-CDG is scheduled to resume on May 2, though I think it's likely to be pushed back further. TBH I wouldn't be surprised if they wait until Spring 2022 when demand will be much stronger.
jplatts wrote:There was an article titled "Dayton airport wants to stop ‘passenger leakage.’ Here are its ‘fly local’ plans" in the Dayton Daily News on 12/24/2020, and that article can be found at https://www.daytondailynews.com/news/dayton-airport-wants-to-stop-passenger-leakage-here-are-its-fly-local-plans/VTBGFJYJCJHBNC6E3WHFDIATQM/.
AA adding DAY-PHX nonstop service might be a possibility with
(a) DAY-PHX being within the range of E-175 regional jets with AA having recently added DFW-EUG (approximately the same distance as DAY-PHX) using E-175 regional jets,
(b) the connections that AA would be able to offer to other destinations in California, Vegas, and Arizona through PHX, and
(c) an average of over 200 passengers per day connecting to destinations in California, Nevada, and Arizona from DAY in Q3 2019.
MIflyer12 wrote:They don't even have DAY-LAX/SFO/LAS (according to August schedules) and they want PHX for connections? Madness. DEN and DFW give DAY all the relevant high volume CA/NV/AZ connections.
BNAMealer wrote:DeltaRules wrote:BNAMealer wrote:Yeah, honestly, CVG and CMH should have their own threads anyway. Their peers do, so why can't they? It makes no sense.
This is brought up every year and, every year, it's established that there's probably not enough discussion to keep individual threads for each of the two airports going plus a place to talk everything else going on in the state. I also follow a thread for smaller airports in Florida (DAB, MLB, GNV, etc.) and it's a struggle to a) find it and b) keep it going; I had to comb the (sometimes miserable to use) search engine when AA announced DAB-DFW/PHL to post the news.
"If it ain't broke", etc.
edit- I also like seeing what's going on at CVG but probably wouldn't otherwise seek it out unless it were in this thread.
There are plenty of smaller airports that see their own threads where not much discussion happens (i.e, SAT, MEM), so I'm not sure if that argument holds weight. I do think CVG should get its own thread, since it is not actually in Ohio and it does have some significant stuff happening (like the Amazon hub).
tys777 wrote:There is no easy answer right to these discussion threads? Could Columbus (could be a Columbus area thread) and CVG hold their own threads? Certainly, but I do think this thread would die and become a thread that only has a page or two of posts over the course of the year and gets forgotten about in a year. I also think that a CVG thread will struggle with anything Amazon related, as is the best place for it a hypothetical CVG thread or the Amazon thread, or is it both?
The long and short of it? A good argument could be made either way in the argument which likely means it just runs in a circle.
BNAMealer wrote:tys777 wrote:There is no easy answer right to these discussion threads? Could Columbus (could be a Columbus area thread) and CVG hold their own threads? Certainly, but I do think this thread would die and become a thread that only has a page or two of posts over the course of the year and gets forgotten about in a year. I also think that a CVG thread will struggle with anything Amazon related, as is the best place for it a hypothetical CVG thread or the Amazon thread, or is it both?
The long and short of it? A good argument could be made either way in the argument which likely means it just runs in a circle.
IND is in a similar situation and yet, it gets its own thread while the rest of Indiana has a single thread.
BNA and MEM are in similar situations and yet, they get their own thread while the rest of Tennessee has their own thread.
Smaller airports such as BHM, MSN, GSO, etc, have their own thread.
The discussion length can vary from year to year. Heck, last year, RDU didn't even hit 100 posts until the final month. I'm not trying to be argumentative, but it just baffles me that CVG and CMH are the only mid-sized markets/airports that can't get their own thread (when there is more going on at the former than CLE). It makes zero sense.
By this logic, we should lump every non-connecting hub/major market airport into their respective state threads.
MIflyer12 wrote:jplatts wrote:There was an article titled "Dayton airport wants to stop ‘passenger leakage.’ Here are its ‘fly local’ plans" in the Dayton Daily News on 12/24/2020, and that article can be found at https://www.daytondailynews.com/news/dayton-airport-wants-to-stop-passenger-leakage-here-are-its-fly-local-plans/VTBGFJYJCJHBNC6E3WHFDIATQM/.
AA adding DAY-PHX nonstop service might be a possibility with
(a) DAY-PHX being within the range of E-175 regional jets with AA having recently added DFW-EUG (approximately the same distance as DAY-PHX) using E-175 regional jets,
(b) the connections that AA would be able to offer to other destinations in California, Vegas, and Arizona through PHX, and
(c) an average of over 200 passengers per day connecting to destinations in California, Nevada, and Arizona from DAY in Q3 2019.
They don't even have DAY-LAX/SFO/LAS (according to August schedules) and they want PHX for connections? Madness. DEN and DFW give DAY all the relevant high volume CA/NV/AZ connections.
tys777 wrote:
Hello! Long term lurker, first time poster. (I spent the first 19 years of life in the TOL area.)
There is no easy answer right to these discussion threads? Could Columbus (could be a Columbus area thread) and CVG hold their own threads? Certainly, but I do think this thread would die and become a thread that only has a page or two of posts over the course of the year and gets forgotten about in a year. I also think that a CVG thread will struggle with anything Amazon related, as is the best place for it a hypothetical CVG thread or the Amazon thread, or is it both?
The long and short of it? A good argument could be made either way in the argument which likely means it just runs in a circle.
Side note: will be interesting to see what Breeze does in the state. I do think that DAY is a good option depending on where they are flying to. I'd love to see TOL at some point, but I think there is a greater issue than just DTW up the road that as long as the port authority is running the show, that the airport will suffer.
flyinryan99 wrote:tys777 wrote:
Hello! Long term lurker, first time poster. (I spent the first 19 years of life in the TOL area.)
There is no easy answer right to these discussion threads? Could Columbus (could be a Columbus area thread) and CVG hold their own threads? Certainly, but I do think this thread would die and become a thread that only has a page or two of posts over the course of the year and gets forgotten about in a year. I also think that a CVG thread will struggle with anything Amazon related, as is the best place for it a hypothetical CVG thread or the Amazon thread, or is it both?
The long and short of it? A good argument could be made either way in the argument which likely means it just runs in a circle.
Side note: will be interesting to see what Breeze does in the state. I do think that DAY is a good option depending on where they are flying to. I'd love to see TOL at some point, but I think there is a greater issue than just DTW up the road that as long as the port authority is running the show, that the airport will suffer.
With regards to TOL, normally I would agree with you, however, with the board that is in there now, things are a bit different. I've been a critic for over 20 years and have given props when they deserve it and I think we should give this tenure a little bit more credit. Gone are the days of the old school, old boys club thinking "we are Toledo and we deserve to get it and not work for it." The new members that have been appointed to the board have drive to move things forward and look down the road. Within the last three years, there has been forward thinking like "what do we need to do next? or how can we be better?" kind of attitude. They have rehabbed pretty much all of the taxiways and runways within the last 5 years and next they are looking into facilities. Nothing specific has been stated, but it's been mentioned several times - it's time to invest in the physical structures now. They are doing a strategic study to identify opportunities and work on strengths and what they should pursue long range. That's being performed by Aelivon Pacific.
Now, there's also another player trying for a power struggle at the airport and that is John Robinson Block - owner of The Blade and the Pittsburgh Post Gazette. He's trying to team up with the city (Wade) to take it back over from the Port and get the city to run it (well under some other kind of airport authority). I'll tell you this - Wade is only in it for "what can it do for himself and the city's coffers?" They are also doing a strategic study being done by Campbell-Hill and that cost is being split by the city/county and JRB. JRB's attitude is unrealistic thinking that there needs to be a third runway out there (see article below). He also thinks the airport is about commercial planes taking off and landing and nothing else out there. Currently, hangar space is at a premium, the old BAX facility is home of Tron Air (one of the largest ground supporting equipment manufacturers in the world), the old BAX maintenance facility is currently undergoing rehab to allow for a third party logistics company to come in and run scheduled cargo flights, Grand Aire had a phenomenal year last second half of the year due to just in time cargo coming in for autos and other manufacturing plants around the area, Toledo Public Schools has a high school maintenance training facility out there, there's another maintenance training facility that just opened up recently - and oh the 180th just built a new hangar...I could go on. I get where JRB is coming from on air service, unless he wants to just write checks to the airlines, it's not going to happen.
My personal opinion - I think they do need a separate authority or governing board, but have it under the current Port Authority veil. There's a ton of educating that has to be done since there are no aviation related personnel on the board. If there was a separate board to just oversee the airports, I could see that as being an advantage to being able to react more quickly to opportunities and being more in touch with what is needed out there. I really think it's a bad idea for the airport to be overseen by the city as I think it's going to create more problems down the road. With regards to air services, right now TOL is in a good position as it's costs are very low compared to other airports and there is access to leisure travelers...question is, how much investment are carriers willing to put into a place like TOL? I could go on and on about what I'd like to see but I don't want to go down that rabbit hole.
Below are the articles:
https://www.toledoblade.com/business/de ... 0200213131
https://www.toledoblade.com/opinion/edi ... 0200223021
https://www.toledoblade.com/opinion/edi ... 0200228033
https://www.toledoblade.com/opinion/edi ... 0200501009
https://www.toledoblade.com/opinion/edi ... 0200728011
https://www.toledoblade.com/local/trans ... 0201217089
https://www.toledoblade.com/opinion/edi ... 0201221131
jplatts wrote:Despite the push by Dayton International Airport for more service out of DAY, it seems unlikely for any of the US3 carriers to add additional nonstop routes out of DAY anytime soon. The most likely possibilities for expansion at DAY are G4 adding less-than-daily DAY-FLL/SRQ/SAV nonstop service and increased frequencies on existing AA, DL, and UA nonstop routes out of DAY.
mjba257 wrote:I'm hoping to see the return of TATL flights once demand returns. CLE-LHR anybody? CVG-LHR? CMH?
DeltaRules wrote:I think it's going to be a looooooooooong time before the likes of CMH/CLE/CVG (excluding CDG)/IND/PIT get TATL back. Those flights were born from and in large part were buoyed by a) discount airlines like WW or DY, who are now dead and/or b) legacy airlines (mostly DL) willing to take chances and had extra flexibility in their fleet and c) airport authorities willing to throw money at them to operate the routes. It won't help things that DL's TATL fleet is going to take a hit in the next few years with the 763s going after the 777s already left.
CMHtraveler wrote:An interesting change from today’s OAG thread:
DL BOS-CMH MAR 1.6>2[2]
I did not expect to see DL planning to bring back BOS at 2x daily in March. Anticipating a possible entrance from B6 or simply taking advantage of no competition on the route?
Citrus1492 wrote:CMHtraveler wrote:An interesting change from today’s OAG thread:
DL BOS-CMH MAR 1.6>2[2]
I did not expect to see DL planning to bring back BOS at 2x daily in March. Anticipating a possible entrance from B6 or simply taking advantage of no competition on the route?
It makes sense. WN is off the route, DL wants to keep it that way. B6 will not be back, still stinging from the CRAA deal with Skybus.
CMHMarc787 wrote:Citrus1492 wrote:CMHtraveler wrote:An interesting change from today’s OAG thread:
DL BOS-CMH MAR 1.6>2[2]
I did not expect to see DL planning to bring back BOS at 2x daily in March. Anticipating a possible entrance from B6 or simply taking advantage of no competition on the route?
It makes sense. WN is off the route, DL wants to keep it that way. B6 will not be back, still stinging from the CRAA deal with Skybus.
With the "strategic alliance" between AA and B6 moving ahead, I wouldn't be surprised if B6 made a return and did BOS & JFK. JFK is currently on COVID hiatus, but B6 could take that over. Plus BOS would be good for One World pax.
Just my $.02
CMHtraveler wrote:CMHMarc787 wrote:Citrus1492 wrote:
It makes sense. WN is off the route, DL wants to keep it that way. B6 will not be back, still stinging from the CRAA deal with Skybus.
With the "strategic alliance" between AA and B6 moving ahead, I wouldn't be surprised if B6 made a return and did BOS & JFK. JFK is currently on COVID hiatus, but B6 could take that over. Plus BOS would be good for One World pax.
Just my $.02
I agree. CMH is almost tailor-made for B6 right now. For one thing, as noted above the new partnership is a plus; there is a strong AA FF base and it is consistently the #1 or #2 largest carrier. Then you look at routes:
BOS - WN off the route, only competition is DL returning at 2x daily (operated by YX).
JFK - AA and DL routes suspended for COVID (again operated by a regional), easy handoff from AA.
LAX - Same as above except they were mainline routes pre-COVID. AA has indicated they will not return and DL was a single daily red eye, return is unknown.
I would think the e190/a220 would be the perfect aircraft for BOS and JFK, especially competing against subcontracted regional service, and a daily 320 for an LAX route that has been shown to be successful (was recently at 2x a319, 1x 739 daily). Can’t imagine they aren’t looking at CMH, a lot has changed on both sides since the Skybus days.