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DeltaRules
Posts: 5426
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2001 11:57 am

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2021

Sun Mar 21, 2021 3:11 pm

DAY's SCASD Proposal: https://www.regulations.gov/document/DO ... -0231-0074

It's interesting to note that most of the destinations they've lost in the last few years were those which went down with WN; there were a couple which lost service with one airline (DEN/WN, LGA/DL), but still have service with another (UA/AA).

miaami wrote:
I know this is extremely early but, Starting OCT 31, 2021 AA has scheduled a 319 on one of the 6 flights CMH-LGA, CMH-MIA also goes to 4X daily on the same day. Saturday flights CMH-CUN resume on DEC 18 2021.


Wow- as you said, a long way out, but I figured the days of AA mainline to LGA would go out with the E90.
 
CMHtraveler
Posts: 366
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2021

Mon Mar 22, 2021 12:49 pm

DeltaRules wrote:
DAY's SCASD Proposal: https://www.regulations.gov/document/DO ... -0231-0074

It's interesting to note that most of the destinations they've lost in the last few years were those which went down with WN; there were a couple which lost service with one airline (DEN/WN, LGA/DL), but still have service with another (UA/AA).

miaami wrote:
I know this is extremely early but, Starting OCT 31, 2021 AA has scheduled a 319 on one of the 6 flights CMH-LGA, CMH-MIA also goes to 4X daily on the same day. Saturday flights CMH-CUN resume on DEC 18 2021.


Wow- as you said, a long way out, but I figured the days of AA mainline to LGA would go out with the E90.


I knew about DAY’s long-standing issue with leakage to surrounding airports, and always figured more direct flight options were the primary driver- but that report really puts into perspective how out-of-whack the airfares are. I had no idea they were that high in comparison to similar sized airports.

Regarding AA’s long term schedule at CMH, any plans for DFW to return to 100% mainline this year? It’s been a mix since the pandemic started, currently 2x 319 and 2x Envoy E75. Dummy bookings aren’t particularly helpful for figuring this out since so much of the schedule is just placeholder.
 
ILNFlyer
Posts: 699
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:34 pm

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2021

Mon Mar 22, 2021 1:42 pm

CMHtraveler wrote:
DeltaRules wrote:
DAY's SCASD Proposal: https://www.regulations.gov/document/DO ... -0231-0074

It's interesting to note that most of the destinations they've lost in the last few years were those which went down with WN; there were a couple which lost service with one airline (DEN/WN, LGA/DL), but still have service with another (UA/AA).

miaami wrote:
I know this is extremely early but, Starting OCT 31, 2021 AA has scheduled a 319 on one of the 6 flights CMH-LGA, CMH-MIA also goes to 4X daily on the same day. Saturday flights CMH-CUN resume on DEC 18 2021.


Wow- as you said, a long way out, but I figured the days of AA mainline to LGA would go out with the E90.


I knew about DAY’s long-standing issue with leakage to surrounding airports, and always figured more direct flight options were the primary driver- but that report really puts into perspective how out-of-whack the airfares are. I had no idea they were that high in comparison to similar sized airports.


It's been that way since AirTran was bought by Southwest and then they pulled out for CVG. AirTran had several non-stop flights to MCO, TPA, BWI and ATL that had loads near 100% and at reasonable fares. AirTran claimed the flights were profitable for them. Perhaps Southwest had higher costs that made the flights unprofitable for them??
 
flyinryan99
Posts: 1528
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 6:54 am

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2021

Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:32 pm

FlydetroitJets wrote:
flyinryan99 wrote:
FlydetroitJets wrote:
Does anyone know what's onboard the 2 Antonov 124's that have visited Toledo yesterday and today? Both have originated out of Shanghai.


I was told 96 Tons of steel for a company up in Michigan. I can't remember the name of the company off hand.

Oh wow! 96 tons of Steel!
Do you know when RA-82044 is set to leave Toledo?


It ended up leaving before sunrise this morning off to TLS to pick up a satellite. It was originally supposed to camp out here for 2 weeks. I saw a video of it leaving and man was it loud!
 
flyinryan99
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Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2021

Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:47 pm

TOL has also filed for a SCASD grant for DFW. Requesting $750,000 (which is what I think they got for CLT) and kicking in $250,000 for $1,000,000 in revenue guarantee for two years. Total package is worth $1,600,000 is what it looks like.

https://www.regulations.gov/document/DO ... -0231-0069
 
CMHtraveler
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Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2021

Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:23 pm

From the WN thread- the schedule was pushed out by a week to May 15, and CMH-SRQ appears 5x weekly during the week of May 9-May 15 (no nonstop Tuesday and Wednesday). We will see if this add holds up when the schedule is extended for the rest of the month but it seems to suggest their 1x weekly experiment was successful! IND/PIT to SRQ got identical adds.
 
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AirportRival
Posts: 443
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Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2021

Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:11 pm

For anyone interested, I've given myself a new project. I've started keeping track of the frequencies and with what aircraft type the airlines are flying from CVG. So far I've only done the week of 03/28 - 04/03. I'll start adding more weeks to the sheet over the next few days. I plan to only have about a month at a time on the sheet since flight schedules are changing so much. If you have any recommendations on how to make it better then please let me know.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing
 
atbPy
Posts: 79
Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:48 pm

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2021

Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:46 am

AirportRival wrote:
For anyone interested, I've given myself a new project. I've started keeping track of the frequencies and with what aircraft type the airlines are flying from CVG. So far I've only done the week of 03/28 - 04/03. I'll start adding more weeks to the sheet over the next few days. I plan to only have about a month at a time on the sheet since flight schedules are changing so much. If you have any recommendations on how to make it better then please let me know.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing


This looks great. Are you doing anything to automate it, or just manual work? I've wanted to do something like this for CMH.
 
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AirportRival
Posts: 443
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Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2021

Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:54 am

atbPy wrote:
AirportRival wrote:
For anyone interested, I've given myself a new project. I've started keeping track of the frequencies and with what aircraft type the airlines are flying from CVG. So far I've only done the week of 03/28 - 04/03. I'll start adding more weeks to the sheet over the next few days. I plan to only have about a month at a time on the sheet since flight schedules are changing so much. If you have any recommendations on how to make it better then please let me know.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing


This looks great. Are you doing anything to automate it, or just manual work? I've wanted to do something like this for CMH.


Thanks. Purely manual right now. I'd like to automate it some but I'm not looking to pay for anything so it likely won't be anytime soon.
 
flyguy89
Posts: 3447
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Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2021

Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:08 am

ILNFlyer wrote:
CMHtraveler wrote:
DeltaRules wrote:
DAY's SCASD Proposal: https://www.regulations.gov/document/DO ... -0231-0074

It's interesting to note that most of the destinations they've lost in the last few years were those which went down with WN; there were a couple which lost service with one airline (DEN/WN, LGA/DL), but still have service with another (UA/AA).



Wow- as you said, a long way out, but I figured the days of AA mainline to LGA would go out with the E90.


I knew about DAY’s long-standing issue with leakage to surrounding airports, and always figured more direct flight options were the primary driver- but that report really puts into perspective how out-of-whack the airfares are. I had no idea they were that high in comparison to similar sized airports.


It's been that way since AirTran was bought by Southwest and then they pulled out for CVG. AirTran had several non-stop flights to MCO, TPA, BWI and ATL that had loads near 100% and at reasonable fares. AirTran claimed the flights were profitable for them. Perhaps Southwest had higher costs that made the flights unprofitable for them??

A massive chunk of those flyers were from Cincinnati when it was CVG that had the highest fares in the country. As soon as the LCCs started coming to CVG and fares came down, DAY's fate was kind of sealed.
 
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AirportRival
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Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2021

Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:44 am

Very cool to see United adding some non-stop leisure routes from CVG and CMH. https://hub.united.com/2021-03-25-unite ... 05573.html

From CVG
3x weekly service to Charleston and Hilton Head, SC; Pensacola, FL; and Portland, ME. All on the CRJ-550.

From CMH
3x weekly service to Hilton Head, SC. And 4x weekly service to Charleston, SC and Portland, ME. I believe all of these are on the CRJ-550 too
 
DeltaRules
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Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2021

Thu Mar 25, 2021 2:28 pm

AirportRival wrote:
Very cool to see United adding some non-stop leisure routes from CVG and CMH. https://hub.united.com/2021-03-25-unite ... 05573.html

From CVG
3x weekly service to Charleston and Hilton Head, SC; Pensacola, FL; and Portland, ME. All on the CRJ-550.

From CMH
3x weekly service to Hilton Head, SC. And 4x weekly service to Charleston, SC and Portland, ME. I believe all of these are on the CRJ-550 too


Wow, UA joining the DL-esque point-to-point game in an even bigger way than before! CMH-HHH could print money.

CVG is also getting Vacation Express/VivaAerobus service to Los Cabos.
 
flyCMH
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Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2021

Thu Mar 25, 2021 2:47 pm

AirportRival wrote:
Very cool to see United adding some non-stop leisure routes from CVG and CMH. https://hub.united.com/2021-03-25-unite ... 05573.html

From CVG
3x weekly service to Charleston and Hilton Head, SC; Pensacola, FL; and Portland, ME. All on the CRJ-550.

From CMH
3x weekly service to Hilton Head, SC. And 4x weekly service to Charleston, SC and Portland, ME. I believe all of these are on the CRJ-550 too


Looks like the Dispatch and Business First have caught wind of the announcement locally:


https://www.dispatch.com/story/business ... 994934002/

https://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/ne ... light.html

Glad to see United continue to adjust resources where they can and that CMH and others are fortunate enough to be the recipients of this increased service. It'll be interesting if, when May schedules are finalized with these flights, if there will be any indication of a return of CMH-SFO. *fingers crossed*
 
DeltaRules
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Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2021

Thu Mar 25, 2021 2:59 pm

flyCMH wrote:
AirportRival wrote:
Very cool to see United adding some non-stop leisure routes from CVG and CMH. https://hub.united.com/2021-03-25-unite ... 05573.html

From CVG
3x weekly service to Charleston and Hilton Head, SC; Pensacola, FL; and Portland, ME. All on the CRJ-550.

From CMH
3x weekly service to Hilton Head, SC. And 4x weekly service to Charleston, SC and Portland, ME. I believe all of these are on the CRJ-550 too


Looks like the Dispatch and Business First have caught wind of the announcement locally:


https://www.dispatch.com/story/business ... 994934002/

https://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/ne ... light.html

Glad to see United continue to adjust resources where they can and that CMH and others are fortunate enough to be the recipients of this increased service. It'll be interesting if, when May schedules are finalized with these flights, if there will be any indication of a return of CMH-SFO. *fingers crossed*


CRAA is updating the destination list on FlyColumbus.com periodically and there are still references to most of the pre-COVID destinations, which seems to be an indicator. I'd have thought that cities disappearing would be a subtle way of indicating if they were permanently gone (case in point, DL's CUN and SEA off the list), but they're all still there: https://flycolumbus.com/storage/product ... s-2021.pdf

Here's still what's out:
-BOS (DL only)
-LAX (AA and DL)
-MSY (WN and NK, though I think NK restarts Spring/Summer-seasonal soon)
-JFK (AA and DL)
-PUJ (Vacation Express)
-RDU (DL)
-SLC (DL)
-SFO (UA)
-STL (WN, thought this was coming back, too?)
-YYZ (AC)
 
flyCMH
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Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2021

Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:20 pm

DeltaRules wrote:
CRAA is updating the destination list on FlyColumbus.com periodically and there are still references to most of the pre-COVID destinations, which seems to be an indicator. I'd have thought that cities disappearing would be a subtle way of indicating if they were permanently gone (case in point, DL's CUN and SEA off the list), but they're all still there: https://flycolumbus.com/storage/product ... s-2021.pdf

Here's still what's out:
-BOS (DL only)
-LAX (AA and DL)
-MSY (WN and NK, though I think NK restarts Spring/Summer-seasonal soon)
-JFK (AA and DL)
-PUJ (Vacation Express)
-RDU (DL)
-SLC (DL)
-SFO (UA)
-STL (WN, thought this was coming back, too?)
-YYZ (AC)


Thanks for pointing that out - yet another source of hope! Regarding BOS, Delta's schedules have it coming back 05MAY21. Per many on these boards, they May schedule is pretty-much finalized. So hopefully that's another route returned, though DL could totally yank it between now and then if they so choose. Still have AA on the route to look forward to in August, if all things stay the same. Not sure if WN will ever make it back on the route.
 
CMHtraveler
Posts: 366
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Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2021

Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:31 pm

DeltaRules wrote:
flyCMH wrote:
AirportRival wrote:
Very cool to see United adding some non-stop leisure routes from CVG and CMH. https://hub.united.com/2021-03-25-unite ... 05573.html

From CVG
3x weekly service to Charleston and Hilton Head, SC; Pensacola, FL; and Portland, ME. All on the CRJ-550.

From CMH
3x weekly service to Hilton Head, SC. And 4x weekly service to Charleston, SC and Portland, ME. I believe all of these are on the CRJ-550 too


Looks like the Dispatch and Business First have caught wind of the announcement locally:


https://www.dispatch.com/story/business ... 994934002/

https://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/ne ... light.html

Glad to see United continue to adjust resources where they can and that CMH and others are fortunate enough to be the recipients of this increased service. It'll be interesting if, when May schedules are finalized with these flights, if there will be any indication of a return of CMH-SFO. *fingers crossed*


CRAA is updating the destination list on FlyColumbus.com periodically and there are still references to most of the pre-COVID destinations, which seems to be an indicator. I'd have thought that cities disappearing would be a subtle way of indicating if they were permanently gone (case in point, DL's CUN and SEA off the list), but they're all still there: https://flycolumbus.com/storage/product ... s-2021.pdf

Here's still what's out:
-BOS (DL only)
-LAX (AA and DL)
-MSY (WN and NK, though I think NK restarts Spring/Summer-seasonal soon)
-JFK (AA and DL)
-PUJ (Vacation Express)
-RDU (DL)
-SLC (DL)
-SFO (UA)
-STL (WN, thought this was coming back, too?)
-YYZ (AC)


An exciting day all around. WN has also announced CMH-MYR today although I’m not sure of frequency yet. Everyone chasing leisure post-vaccines.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/book-tod ... 00915.html

Just got off of WN CMH-HOU this morning and it was completely full. Totally different from even a month ago.

STL on WN is coming back but keeps getting pushed, same with MSY and SLC on NK and DL respectively.
 
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AirportRival
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Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2021

Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:55 pm

DeltaRules wrote:
AirportRival wrote:
Very cool to see United adding some non-stop leisure routes from CVG and CMH. https://hub.united.com/2021-03-25-unite ... 05573.html

From CVG
3x weekly service to Charleston and Hilton Head, SC; Pensacola, FL; and Portland, ME. All on the CRJ-550.

From CMH
3x weekly service to Hilton Head, SC. And 4x weekly service to Charleston, SC and Portland, ME. I believe all of these are on the CRJ-550 too


Wow, UA joining the DL-esque point-to-point game in an even bigger way than before! CMH-HHH could print money.

CVG is also getting Vacation Express/VivaAerobus service to Los Cabos.


The nice part about the Los Cabos add is that it's actually Viva making the add. Vacation Express is just piggybacking on it
 
ChasChandler
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Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2021

Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:00 pm

Glad for any new destinations from CMH, but how of us had Portland, ME in the office pool?
 
atbPy
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Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2021

Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:40 pm

ChasChandler wrote:
Glad for any new destinations from CMH, but how of us had Portland, ME in the office pool?


I agree! A bit of a wildcard there, but I have never been to Maine and might be a good choice in the future.
 
DeltaRules
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Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2021

Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:16 pm

 
DeltaRules
Posts: 5426
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Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2021

Wed Mar 31, 2021 12:23 am

Using May 12th as a sample date, here's what DL's doing at CMH and DAY:

CMH-
-ATL- 3x 739, 1x 738, 2x 717
-BOS- 2x E75
-DTW- 4x E75
-LGA- 2x E75
-MSP- 3x CR9
Still no JFK, LAX, RDU, SLC

DAY:
-ATL- 3x CR9, 1x 717 (mainline returns)
-DTW- 3x CRJ
Still no MSP

DAY getting mainline back seems like a nice vote of confidence.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2021

Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:27 pm

NK adding CMH-LAX

https://ir.spirit.com/news-releases/new ... fault.aspx

DL & AA already removed this route completely from their schedules, and I think this means they are very unlikely to return anytime soon IMO
 
DeltaRules
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Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2021

Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:20 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
NK adding CMH-LAX

https://ir.spirit.com/news-releases/new ... fault.aspx

DL & AA already removed this route completely from their schedules, and I think this means they are very unlikely to return anytime soon IMO


This will be interesting to watch going forward. DL hasn't removed CMH-LAX from its interactive route map (and CRAA still seems to think it's in play), which could possibly indicate there's a chance it'd come back, but ULCC competition isn't going to help unless they get territorial real fast.
 
CMHMarc787
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Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2021

Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:28 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
NK adding CMH-LAX

https://ir.spirit.com/news-releases/new ... fault.aspx

DL & AA already removed this route completely from their schedules, and I think this means they are very unlikely to return anytime soon IMO


A good pickup for CMH. It'll be interesting to see if AA and/or DL respond. However, I think the bigger question now is how much will NK expand? Their operation continues to be strong, with good pax numbers.

Where do they/should they go from here?
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2021

Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:32 pm

DeltaRules wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
NK adding CMH-LAX

https://ir.spirit.com/news-releases/new ... fault.aspx

DL & AA already removed this route completely from their schedules, and I think this means they are very unlikely to return anytime soon IMO


This will be interesting to watch going forward. DL hasn't removed CMH-LAX from its interactive route map (and CRAA still seems to think it's in play), which could possibly indicate there's a chance it'd come back, but ULCC competition isn't going to help unless they get territorial real fast.


It was removed as was RDU:

Image
https://dl.fltmaps.com/en

CMHMarc787 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
NK adding CMH-LAX

https://ir.spirit.com/news-releases/new ... fault.aspx

DL & AA already removed this route completely from their schedules, and I think this means they are very unlikely to return anytime soon IMO


A good pickup for CMH. It'll be interesting to see if AA and/or DL respond. However, I think the bigger question now is how much will NK expand? Their operation continues to be strong, with good pax numbers.


Neither AA or DL will respond, they don't like competing with NK on TCON routes especially to mid-sized cities.

See what happened with PIT as an example.
 
atbPy
Posts: 79
Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:48 pm

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2021

Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:33 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
NK adding CMH-LAX

https://ir.spirit.com/news-releases/new ... fault.aspx

DL & AA already removed this route completely from their schedules, and I think this means they are very unlikely to return anytime soon IMO


Nice to see more adds by NK. I gotta think that they would need to acquire some more gates in concourse B.
 
DeltaRules
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Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2001 11:57 am

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2021

Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:35 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
DeltaRules wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
NK adding CMH-LAX

https://ir.spirit.com/news-releases/new ... fault.aspx

DL & AA already removed this route completely from their schedules, and I think this means they are very unlikely to return anytime soon IMO


This will be interesting to watch going forward. DL hasn't removed CMH-LAX from its interactive route map (and CRAA still seems to think it's in play), which could possibly indicate there's a chance it'd come back, but ULCC competition isn't going to help unless they get territorial real fast.


It was removed as was RDU:

Image
https://dl.fltmaps.com/en


Ah, that's disappointing. It was still there as of a couple days ago.
 
CMHtraveler
Posts: 366
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Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2021

Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:40 pm

CMHMarc787 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
NK adding CMH-LAX

https://ir.spirit.com/news-releases/new ... fault.aspx

DL & AA already removed this route completely from their schedules, and I think this means they are very unlikely to return anytime soon IMO


A good pickup for CMH. It'll be interesting to see if AA and/or DL respond. However, I think the bigger question now is how much will NK expand? Their operation continues to be strong, with good pax numbers.

Where do they/should they go from here?


Fantastic news! We knew it was unlikely that CMH would go for too long with service to places like PWM and PNS yet have no service to the second largest city in the nation.

I’m still hoping either DL or AA/B6/AS will restart LAX for the purpose of international connections, but it’s great at the moment to just get that dot back on the map. The real story here, as everyone has noted, is the rapid growth and strength of the NK operation at CMH since their arrival. They really seem to be doing well, upguaging aircraft and frequencies in addition to adding new routes. For example, MCO is 2x daily right now with the second flight on a 321. It’s really impressive growth given they’ve been here about 5 minutes and are up against a large WN operation.

Your move network carriers...
 
DeltaRules
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Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2021

Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:42 pm

atbPy wrote:
Nice to see more adds by NK. I gotta think that they would need to acquire some more gates in concourse B.


Maybe not, depending on how they schedule their flights. Keep in mind both B35 and B36 are swing gates with two parking lines. They're using B36 as overflow, but they only seem to have a few days a week where they use both.

B34 is a city gate currently used by UA if they'd need three.
 
flyCMH
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Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2021

Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:35 pm

Midwestindy wrote:


I think everyone on these boards called this route, lol. Definitely a solid add, particularly given the abandonment of the route by AA and DL.

It's probably my local bias talking, but I think one of them will be back on the route in 2022. I think there's a sizable market segment where NK won't be a viable option for the service they offer. When international traffic picks up and those transpac connections come back, along with a return of more business travel, there will be a better possibility of seeing DL or AA reconsider serving the route nonstop.
 
DeltaRules
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Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2021

Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:56 pm

flyCMH wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:


I think everyone on these boards called this route, lol. Definitely a solid add, particularly given the abandonment of the route by AA and DL.

It's probably my local bias talking, but I think one of them will be back on the route in 2022. I think there's a sizable market segment where NK won't be a viable option for the service they offer. When international traffic picks up and those transpac connections come back, along with a return of more business travel, there will be a better possibility of seeing DL or AA reconsider serving the route nonstop.


Maybe I'm overly optimistic, but I agree; both AA and DL know what the city pair can do. I seem to recall reading in another thread DL is temporarily hard up for gates at LAX with the renovations to T3 (or is it T2?) which could explain why they've dropped it and, once they have more real estate, plausibly allows them to expand again.

I'm yet to fly NK (though their shift toward improving their product has me intrigued) but, given the choice, I'd rather be in the back of a DL 738/739 than an NK Airbus on CMH-LAX (or vice versa).
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2021

Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:16 pm

flyCMH wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:


I think everyone on these boards called this route, lol. Definitely a solid add, particularly given the abandonment of the route by AA and DL.

It's probably my local bias talking, but I think one of them will be back on the route in 2022. I think there's a sizable market segment where NK won't be a viable option for the service they offer. When international traffic picks up and those transpac connections come back, along with a return of more business travel, there will be a better possibility of seeing DL or AA reconsider serving the route nonstop.


CMH-LAX is a sizable market, ideally a route served 2x daily, but it's worth keeping in mind that:

-DL & AA don't connect that many passengers on TPAC flights through LAX since they don't run traditional banks at LAX.

-Even with a market segment that won't fly NK, which there is IMO at CMH, AA & DL still need to be relatively competitive with NK on price. This in turn lowers yields, and makes it a less attractive route, especially given the stage length

In my opinion any new service(especially ULCCs) is good for the general public, but as a loyal DL & AA flyer I know ULCCs often are bad news for legacies.
 
CMHtraveler
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Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2021

Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:54 am

Midwestindy wrote:
flyCMH wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:


I think everyone on these boards called this route, lol. Definitely a solid add, particularly given the abandonment of the route by AA and DL.

It's probably my local bias talking, but I think one of them will be back on the route in 2022. I think there's a sizable market segment where NK won't be a viable option for the service they offer. When international traffic picks up and those transpac connections come back, along with a return of more business travel, there will be a better possibility of seeing DL or AA reconsider serving the route nonstop.


CMH-LAX is a sizable market, ideally a route served 2x daily, but it's worth keeping in mind that:

-DL & AA don't connect that many passengers on TPAC flights through LAX since they don't run traditional banks at LAX.

-Even with a market segment that won't fly NK, which there is IMO at CMH, AA & DL still need to be relatively competitive with NK on price. This in turn lowers yields, and makes it a less attractive route, especially given the stage length

In my opinion any new service(especially ULCCs) is good for the general public, but as a loyal DL & AA flyer I know ULCCs often are bad news for legacies.


An AA employee at CMH told me recently that the LAX flights were specifically timed for Asia connections at LAX. I thought that was odd until someone on a completely unrelated Anet thread posted 2020 PDEW pax numbers for Tokyo. It turns out that ranking all the airports in the U.S. without direct Tokyo service by O&D PDEW, CMH is #4. That’s ahead of AA hubs like CLT, MIA, and PHL. Incredible. I presume that is thanks to the Honda plant in Marysville, but I had no idea the numbers were that big. That’s part of why I agree AA/AS/B6 might be back once Asia travel returns, even with NK competition.
 
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Midwestindy
Posts: 6405
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Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2021

Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:18 am

CMHtraveler wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
flyCMH wrote:

I think everyone on these boards called this route, lol. Definitely a solid add, particularly given the abandonment of the route by AA and DL.

It's probably my local bias talking, but I think one of them will be back on the route in 2022. I think there's a sizable market segment where NK won't be a viable option for the service they offer. When international traffic picks up and those transpac connections come back, along with a return of more business travel, there will be a better possibility of seeing DL or AA reconsider serving the route nonstop.


CMH-LAX is a sizable market, ideally a route served 2x daily, but it's worth keeping in mind that:

-DL & AA don't connect that many passengers on TPAC flights through LAX since they don't run traditional banks at LAX.

-Even with a market segment that won't fly NK, which there is IMO at CMH, AA & DL still need to be relatively competitive with NK on price. This in turn lowers yields, and makes it a less attractive route, especially given the stage length

In my opinion any new service(especially ULCCs) is good for the general public, but as a loyal DL & AA flyer I know ULCCs often are bad news for legacies.


An AA employee at CMH told me recently that the LAX flights were specifically timed for Asia connections at LAX. I thought that was odd until someone on a completely unrelated Anet thread posted 2020 PDEW pax numbers for Tokyo. It turns out that ranking all the airports in the U.S. without direct Tokyo service by O&D PDEW, CMH is #4. That’s ahead of AA hubs like CLT, MIA, and PHL. Incredible. I presume that is thanks to the Honda plant in Marysville, but I had no idea the numbers were that big. That’s part of why I agree AA/AS/B6 might be back once Asia travel returns, even with NK competition.


This is from AA's pre-COVID schedule, the Tokyo flights at least were not timed well to match CMH
Image
https://www.regulations.gov/document/DO ... -0014-0004

Plus remember, CMH passengers also connect to TPAC through ORD, DFW, SFO, SEA, DTW, MSP, e.t.c. The number of total TPAC passengers going through LAX is a small piece of the pie, and likely less in the future as AA cut (or moved to SEA) a number of TPAC routes from LAX.

hmmmm sounds like someone got that from one of my posts from 2 years back (2020 int'l PDEW wouldn't be updated yet & would be tiny given the COVID situation), which was from DOT submissions from airports which were trying to secure HND routes:

Midwestindy wrote:
Image

Didn't know MIA-TYO was so small......
Last edited by Midwestindy on Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
DeltaRules
Posts: 5426
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2001 11:57 am

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2021

Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:45 am

Midwestindy wrote:
CMHtraveler wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

CMH-LAX is a sizable market, ideally a route served 2x daily, but it's worth keeping in mind that:

-DL & AA don't connect that many passengers on TPAC flights through LAX since they don't run traditional banks at LAX.

-Even with a market segment that won't fly NK, which there is IMO at CMH, AA & DL still need to be relatively competitive with NK on price. This in turn lowers yields, and makes it a less attractive route, especially given the stage length

In my opinion any new service(especially ULCCs) is good for the general public, but as a loyal DL & AA flyer I know ULCCs often are bad news for legacies.


An AA employee at CMH told me recently that the LAX flights were specifically timed for Asia connections at LAX. I thought that was odd until someone on a completely unrelated Anet thread posted 2020 PDEW pax numbers for Tokyo. It turns out that ranking all the airports in the U.S. without direct Tokyo service by O&D PDEW, CMH is #4. That’s ahead of AA hubs like CLT, MIA, and PHL. Incredible. I presume that is thanks to the Honda plant in Marysville, but I had no idea the numbers were that big. That’s part of why I agree AA/AS/B6 might be back once Asia travel returns, even with NK competition.


Remember though, CMH passengers also connect to TPAC through ORD, DFW, SFO, SEA, DTW, MSP, e.t.c. The number of total TPAC passengers going through LAX is a small piece of the pie, and likely less in the future as AA cut (or moved to SEA) a number of TPAC routes from LAX.

hmmmm sounds like someone got that from one of my posts from 2 years back (2020 int'l PDEW wouldn't be updated yet & would be tiny given the COVID situation), which was from DOT submissions from airports which were trying to secure HND routes:

Midwestindy wrote:
Image

Didn't know MIA-TYO was so small......


I also saw the post CMHtraveler alluded to a few days ago. As for long-term, arguments can be made both for (WN pulled CMH-OAK until UA announced SFO a few days later, at which point it magically came back; UA TPAC pax could connect via ORD or IAD to get to Asia but SFO was added anyway) and against (the valid point that a legacy may not want to tussle with NK). Time will tell.
 
CMHtraveler
Posts: 366
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Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2021

Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:30 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
CMHtraveler wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

CMH-LAX is a sizable market, ideally a route served 2x daily, but it's worth keeping in mind that:

-DL & AA don't connect that many passengers on TPAC flights through LAX since they don't run traditional banks at LAX.

-Even with a market segment that won't fly NK, which there is IMO at CMH, AA & DL still need to be relatively competitive with NK on price. This in turn lowers yields, and makes it a less attractive route, especially given the stage length

In my opinion any new service(especially ULCCs) is good for the general public, but as a loyal DL & AA flyer I know ULCCs often are bad news for legacies.


An AA employee at CMH told me recently that the LAX flights were specifically timed for Asia connections at LAX. I thought that was odd until someone on a completely unrelated Anet thread posted 2020 PDEW pax numbers for Tokyo. It turns out that ranking all the airports in the U.S. without direct Tokyo service by O&D PDEW, CMH is #4. That’s ahead of AA hubs like CLT, MIA, and PHL. Incredible. I presume that is thanks to the Honda plant in Marysville, but I had no idea the numbers were that big. That’s part of why I agree AA/AS/B6 might be back once Asia travel returns, even with NK competition.


This is from AA's pre-COVID schedule, the Tokyo flights at least were not timed well to match CMH
Image
https://www.regulations.gov/document/DO ... -0014-0004

Plus remember, CMH passengers also connect to TPAC through ORD, DFW, SFO, SEA, DTW, MSP, e.t.c. The number of total TPAC passengers going through LAX is a small piece of the pie, and likely less in the future as AA cut (or moved to SEA) a number of TPAC routes from LAX.

hmmmm sounds like someone got that from one of my posts from 2 years back (2020 int'l PDEW wouldn't be updated yet & would be tiny given the COVID situation), which was from DOT submissions from airports which were trying to secure HND routes:

Midwestindy wrote:
Image

Didn't know MIA-TYO was so small......


You’re probably right about the PDEW numbers being unreliable (or listed for the wrong year altogether) by another poster, but the chart of connecting flights not listing CMH is strange- because IIRC the timing of AA’s flights when LAX was 2x daily, they would have lined up very nicely with that Tokyo schedule, with an afternoon flight from CMH arriving in LAX pre-departure and a morning return flight post-arrival.

Either way, you’re definitely right about other options for TPAC connections, especially ORD and DFW in AA’s case (DeltaRules also makes a valid counterpoint as well that UA added SFO despite their other connecting options). I trust you have more info than I do when it comes to those numbers. We’ll see if AA/AS/B6 responds to the NK add down the road, for now it’s just nice to have the nonstop back!

The next big outstanding route question for CMH IMO is whether UA will bring back SFO at some point, as it keeps getting cut on a month by month basis rather than for the entire year like the LAX flights (as of now it is bookable in late May but that’s a placeholder).
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 6405
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2021

Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:29 pm

CMHtraveler wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
CMHtraveler wrote:

An AA employee at CMH told me recently that the LAX flights were specifically timed for Asia connections at LAX. I thought that was odd until someone on a completely unrelated Anet thread posted 2020 PDEW pax numbers for Tokyo. It turns out that ranking all the airports in the U.S. without direct Tokyo service by O&D PDEW, CMH is #4. That’s ahead of AA hubs like CLT, MIA, and PHL. Incredible. I presume that is thanks to the Honda plant in Marysville, but I had no idea the numbers were that big. That’s part of why I agree AA/AS/B6 might be back once Asia travel returns, even with NK competition.


This is from AA's pre-COVID schedule, the Tokyo flights at least were not timed well to match CMH
Image
https://www.regulations.gov/document/DO ... -0014-0004

Plus remember, CMH passengers also connect to TPAC through ORD, DFW, SFO, SEA, DTW, MSP, e.t.c. The number of total TPAC passengers going through LAX is a small piece of the pie, and likely less in the future as AA cut (or moved to SEA) a number of TPAC routes from LAX.

hmmmm sounds like someone got that from one of my posts from 2 years back (2020 int'l PDEW wouldn't be updated yet & would be tiny given the COVID situation), which was from DOT submissions from airports which were trying to secure HND routes:

Midwestindy wrote:
Image

Didn't know MIA-TYO was so small......


You’re probably right about the PDEW numbers being unreliable (or listed for the wrong year altogether) by another poster, but the chart of connecting flights not listing CMH is strange- because IIRC the timing of AA’s flights when LAX was 2x daily, they would have lined up very nicely with that Tokyo schedule, with an afternoon flight from CMH arriving in LAX pre-departure and a morning return flight post-arrival.

Either way, you’re definitely right about other options for TPAC connections, especially ORD and DFW in AA’s case (DeltaRules also makes a valid counterpoint as well that UA added SFO despite their other connecting options). I trust you have more info than I do when it comes to those numbers. We’ll see if AA/AS/B6 responds to the NK add down the road, for now it’s just nice to have the nonstop back!

The next big outstanding route question for CMH IMO is whether UA will bring back SFO at some point, as it keeps getting cut on a month by month basis rather than for the entire year like the LAX flights (as of now it is bookable in late May but that’s a placeholder).


SFO is a decent O&D spot from CMH, and can probably stand on its own without TPAC connections, although it obviously helps.

UA was averaging ~74 O&D passengers a day on that route in the 2nd half of 2019, and ~105 Pax/day on the route over the same time period. So, assuming at least some of 31 connecting pax were domestic, TPAC connections did not make or break that route.

I think UA should be bringing SFO back in due time.
 
CMHtraveler
Posts: 366
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2021

Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:16 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
CMHtraveler wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

This is from AA's pre-COVID schedule, the Tokyo flights at least were not timed well to match CMH
Image
https://www.regulations.gov/document/DO ... -0014-0004

Plus remember, CMH passengers also connect to TPAC through ORD, DFW, SFO, SEA, DTW, MSP, e.t.c. The number of total TPAC passengers going through LAX is a small piece of the pie, and likely less in the future as AA cut (or moved to SEA) a number of TPAC routes from LAX.

hmmmm sounds like someone got that from one of my posts from 2 years back (2020 int'l PDEW wouldn't be updated yet & would be tiny given the COVID situation), which was from DOT submissions from airports which were trying to secure HND routes:



You’re probably right about the PDEW numbers being unreliable (or listed for the wrong year altogether) by another poster, but the chart of connecting flights not listing CMH is strange- because IIRC the timing of AA’s flights when LAX was 2x daily, they would have lined up very nicely with that Tokyo schedule, with an afternoon flight from CMH arriving in LAX pre-departure and a morning return flight post-arrival.

Either way, you’re definitely right about other options for TPAC connections, especially ORD and DFW in AA’s case (DeltaRules also makes a valid counterpoint as well that UA added SFO despite their other connecting options). I trust you have more info than I do when it comes to those numbers. We’ll see if AA/AS/B6 responds to the NK add down the road, for now it’s just nice to have the nonstop back!

The next big outstanding route question for CMH IMO is whether UA will bring back SFO at some point, as it keeps getting cut on a month by month basis rather than for the entire year like the LAX flights (as of now it is bookable in late May but that’s a placeholder).


SFO is a decent O&D spot from CMH, and can probably stand on its own without TPAC connections, although it obviously helps.

UA was averaging ~74 O&D passengers a day on that route in the 2nd half of 2019, and ~105 Pax/day on the route over the same time period. So, assuming at least some of 31 connecting pax were domestic, TPAC connections did not make or break that route.

I think UA should be bringing SFO back in due time.


Wow thanks for the data! 105 pax a day seems pretty solid for a 114/120 seat a319. I hope your prediction is correct!
 
DeltaRules
Posts: 5426
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2001 11:57 am

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2021

Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:34 am

Midwestindy wrote:
CMHtraveler wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

CMH-LAX is a sizable market, ideally a route served 2x daily, but it's worth keeping in mind that:

-DL & AA don't connect that many passengers on TPAC flights through LAX since they don't run traditional banks at LAX.

-Even with a market segment that won't fly NK, which there is IMO at CMH, AA & DL still need to be relatively competitive with NK on price. This in turn lowers yields, and makes it a less attractive route, especially given the stage length

In my opinion any new service(especially ULCCs) is good for the general public, but as a loyal DL & AA flyer I know ULCCs often are bad news for legacies.


An AA employee at CMH told me recently that the LAX flights were specifically timed for Asia connections at LAX. I thought that was odd until someone on a completely unrelated Anet thread posted 2020 PDEW pax numbers for Tokyo. It turns out that ranking all the airports in the U.S. without direct Tokyo service by O&D PDEW, CMH is #4. That’s ahead of AA hubs like CLT, MIA, and PHL. Incredible. I presume that is thanks to the Honda plant in Marysville, but I had no idea the numbers were that big. That’s part of why I agree AA/AS/B6 might be back once Asia travel returns, even with NK competition.


This is from AA's pre-COVID schedule, the Tokyo flights at least were not timed well to match CMH
Image
https://www.regulations.gov/document/DO ... -0014-0004


Is it possible that was published prior to the announcement of the second daily AA flight? Not saying you're wrong but, when it was 1x daily, the Westbound flight would've connected reasonably well to LAX-HND, as it was a 6ishpm Eastern departure, typically (maybe that pushed them outside the 4 hour maximum connection time?). I can't remember when the Eastbound flight left (I just remember it was the opposite schedule of what DL ran, with an Eastbound redeye and morning Westbound).

When it went double-daily, the second flight ran similar to DL.
 
DeltaRules
Posts: 5426
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2001 11:57 am

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2021

Sat Apr 03, 2021 2:16 am

Looks like DL will be running two cargo flights a day through CMH this month, both on 757s: DL8842 CMH-JFK starting 4/5 and DL8850 CLE-CMH starting 4/8:

https://www.deltacargo.com/content/carg ... le_MAR.pdf
 
CMHtraveler
Posts: 366
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2021

Sat Apr 03, 2021 11:53 am

DeltaRules wrote:
Looks like DL will be running two cargo flights a day through CMH this month, both on 757s: DL8842 CMH-JFK starting 4/5 and DL8850 CLE-CMH starting 4/8:

https://www.deltacargo.com/content/carg ... le_MAR.pdf


Good catch! If I’m understanding the “Eff Date” and “Exp Date” columns correctly though, it looks like those flights are one-offs scheduled for only 4/5 (JFK) and 4/8 (CLE)?
 
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AirportRival
Posts: 443
Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2014 6:24 pm

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2021

Sat Apr 03, 2021 1:01 pm

I've finished the daily flight schedule for CVG for April. It's a few days late but it's done.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

I'm starting May now and it should be a little more fun. There will be quite a few additional destinations and a couple new airlines.
 
jplatts
Posts: 5098
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2021

Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:38 pm

AirportRival wrote:
Very cool to see United adding some non-stop leisure routes from CVG and CMH. https://hub.united.com/2021-03-25-unite ... 05573.html

From CVG
3x weekly service to Charleston and Hilton Head, SC; Pensacola, FL; and Portland, ME. All on the CRJ-550.


In addition to the recently added CVG-CHS/HHH/PNS/PWM nonstop flights, UA re-adding CVG-SFO nonstop service might be a possibility once demand recovers with
(a) SFO having had significant demand from CVG prior to F9 and UA dropping CVG-SFO nonstop service, with demand for CVG-SFO exceeding capacity available on DL CVG-SFO nonstop flights in Summer 2019,
(b) there being some UA FF's in the San Francisco Bay Area who will avoid flying nonstop on DL or connecting on other airlines, and
(c) connecting opportunities available to destinations in California, Oregon, Alaska, Hawaii, Asia, Australia, New Zealand, and Tahiti at SFO on UA.
 
jplatts
Posts: 5098
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2021

Sun Apr 04, 2021 4:24 pm

flyCMH wrote:
BOS - agree that DL will eventually be back. My guess is they'll try and beat AA to the punch by coming back by late May or into June, but would probably wait no longer than August 17 to come back. Not sure if WN will cede the market to AA and DL, especially considering all the new markets they've announced over the past year or so. jetBlue seems like a distant possibility now, but as more 220s roll in, maybe it could happen.


NK adding CMH-BOS nonstop service might be a possibility with NK previously having seasonal nonstop service to BOS from CLE and with NK having nonstop service to BOS from ORD and DTW.
 
DeltaRules
Posts: 5426
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2001 11:57 am

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2021

Sun Apr 04, 2021 7:35 pm

jplatts wrote:
flyCMH wrote:
BOS - agree that DL will eventually be back. My guess is they'll try and beat AA to the punch by coming back by late May or into June, but would probably wait no longer than August 17 to come back. Not sure if WN will cede the market to AA and DL, especially considering all the new markets they've announced over the past year or so. jetBlue seems like a distant possibility now, but as more 220s roll in, maybe it could happen.


NK adding CMH-BOS nonstop service might be a possibility with NK previously having seasonal nonstop service to BOS from CLE and with NK having nonstop service to BOS from ORD and DTW.


DL already announced CMH-BOS is coming back in May in addition to AA's new (resumed) service in August, so I don't think there's enough room at the inn for all three.
 
atbPy
Posts: 79
Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:48 pm

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2021

Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:57 am

AirportRival wrote:
I've finished the daily flight schedule for CVG for April. It's a few days late but it's done.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

I'm starting May now and it should be a little more fun. There will be quite a few additional destinations and a couple new airlines.


Nice work! Where are you getting the data? Are you going to each airline site and running queries?
 
User avatar
AirportRival
Posts: 443
Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2014 6:24 pm

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2021

Tue Apr 06, 2021 11:43 am

atbPy wrote:
AirportRival wrote:
I've finished the daily flight schedule for CVG for April. It's a few days late but it's done.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

I'm starting May now and it should be a little more fun. There will be quite a few additional destinations and a couple new airlines.


Nice work! Where are you getting the data? Are you going to each airline site and running queries?


Thanks. For now I'm pulling it from Google Flights. If I notice a week over week difference then I'll go to the airlines website to verify it.
 
CMHtraveler
Posts: 366
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Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2021

Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:59 pm

WN’s recent late summer/early fall schedule extension is very aggressive in terms of restoring frequencies, which is good news for WN-heavy airports like CMH. Very few routes remain at only 1x. They must like bookings for that timeframe. We’ll see how much survives close-in cuts!
 
CMHtraveler
Posts: 366
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2021

Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:15 pm

We all got excited about the new NK LAX route (no one more than me lol) but also included with much less fanfare in the NK schedule extension; nonstop CMH-MSY is bookable again beginning July 1 3x weekly through the end of the November extension, so we can take this off the unaccounted-for routes list. By contrast, MSY no longer appears as a nonstop destination from CMH on WN’s route map so it seems doubtful 1x weekly seasonal will return in the short term.
 
flyCMH
Posts: 2388
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 1999 12:15 pm

Re: The Rest of Ohio - 2021

Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:28 pm

CMHtraveler wrote:
We all got excited about the new NK LAX route (no one more than me lol) but also included with much less fanfare in the NK schedule extension; nonstop CMH-MSY is bookable again beginning July 1 3x weekly through the end of the November extension, so we can take this off the unaccounted-for routes list. By contrast, MSY no longer appears as a nonstop destination from CMH on WN’s route map so it seems doubtful 1x weekly seasonal will return in the short term.


That's great new about NK restoring MSY service. I'm happy with the 3x weekly schedule; hopefully it can grow from there. It's too bad WN seems to have removed the route completely from CMH, but maybe they'll reconsider in 2022.

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