Welcome to the Rest of Ohio - 2021. Please continue to add your comments below

Link to last thread

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1437963

Looks like the mods were as eager to end 2020 as everyone else, and who can blame them? Welcome to the 2021 regional thread for aviation in Ohio (except CLE- more on that later). This is fifth "annual" thread we've had where we've been able to have an ongoing regional hub for the Buckeye State and I'd like to thank everyone for continuing to keep these going and active.

Taking a lap around the state, the Ohio airports with/which could have scheduled service we primarily chat in these threads include:
-CVG (Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport)- DL Hub/Focus City, G4 & F9 Focus City, large DHL/soon-to-be major Amazon Air hub, PSA MX, Endeavor crew base. (Yes, it's in Kentucky, but it's Cincinnati's airport. )
--LUK (Cincinnati Municipal Lunken Airport)- Home of Ultimate Air Shuttle.
-CMH (John Glenn Columbus International Airport)- Home of NetJets, Republic MX & crew base, Envoy MX base.
--LCK (Rickenbacker International Airport (Columbus))- Rapidly-developing international air cargo/logistics center, also served by G4.
-DAY (James M. Cox Dayton International Airport)- Home of PSA Airlines with a large MX and crew base, also houses an Air Wisconsin MX base.
-TOL (Toledo Express Airport)- Served by G4 and AA, gained service to CLT in 2018.
-CAK (Akron-Canton Airport)- Serves its own region and also acts as a secondary Cleveland airport.
-YNG (Youngstown-Warren Regional Airport)- No scheduled service now, but working on regaining passenger service.
-ILN (Wilmington Air Park)- Home of ABX/ATSG, Phoenix from the flames hub/sort facility for Amazon Air.
-HTS (Tri-State Airport, Huntington, WV)- Regional airport which serves southern Ohio, located across the Ohio River from Ironton.
-PKB (Mid-Ohio Valley Regional Airport, Parkersburg, WV)- EAS-served regional airport which advertises itself as an airport for Marietta.

While CVG and CMH generate a good bit of the discussion, there's also talk in this thread about the smaller airports, and that's the intended beauty of these threads- a community stream to keep track of what's going on in and around the state. If you find something interesting about a non-commercially served airport, again, share it! In recent years, we've also "adopted" airports in West Virginia which are a stone's throw from Ohio (HTS and PKB).

Previous threads:
-2020: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1437963
-2019: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1411841
-2018- viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1382407&hilit=cle
-2017- viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1351523
-Part 5- viewtopic.php?f=3&t=607803

The reason we don't specifically include CLE in this series of threads is they've long had their own discussion (and, if memory serves, theirs came first and this was a response/supplement to that for the other airports). The newest CLE thread isn't up as of the time of this post, but if you'd like to chat CLE here, however, feel free!

It always does make me chuckle the Ohio thread doesn't include CLE (in Ohio) but does include CVG (not in Ohio). I understand why but still makes me laugh.

Jshank83 wrote:

It always does make me chuckle the Ohio thread doesn't include CLE (in Ohio) but does include CVG (not in Ohio). I understand why but still makes me laugh.

Yeah, honestly, CVG and CMH should have their own threads anyway. Their peers do, so why can't they? It makes no sense.

DeltaRules wrote:

Looks like the mods were as eager to end 2020 as everyone else, and who can blame them? Welcome to the 2021 regional thread for aviation in Ohio (except CLE- more on that later). This is fifth "annual" thread we've had where we've been able to have an ongoing regional hub for the Buckeye State and I'd like to thank everyone for continuing to keep these going and active.!

LOL! Agreed; I think everyone is anxious to get 2021 underway! Nice summary on the Ohio (and quasi-Ohio) airports discussed in this thread.

Jshank83 wrote:

It always does make me chuckle the Ohio thread doesn't include CLE (in Ohio) but does include CVG (not in Ohio). I understand why but still makes me laugh.

Another one of the many ways Ohio is so delightfully dysfunctional.

Here's hoping for much better things for all of our airports and for all of us in 2021!

Happy new year everyone- I see we’re even getting an early start on the annual great Anet Ohio thread debate. Maybe we should wait until the new year to start our usual wishes/prediction posts? Here’s to a much better 2021 for all of us!

BNAMealer wrote:

Yeah, honestly, CVG and CMH should have their own threads anyway. Their peers do, so why can't they? It makes no sense.

This is brought up every year and, every year, it's established that there's probably not enough discussion to keep individual threads for each of the two airports going plus a place to talk everything else going on in the state. I also follow a thread for smaller airports in Florida (DAB, MLB, GNV, etc.) and it's a struggle to a) find it and b) keep it going; I had to comb the (sometimes miserable to use) search engine when AA announced DAB-DFW/PHL to post the news.

"If it ain't broke", etc.

edit- I also like seeing what's going on at CVG but probably wouldn't otherwise seek it out unless it were in this thread.

DeltaRules wrote:

BNAMealer wrote:

Yeah, honestly, CVG and CMH should have their own threads anyway. Their peers do, so why can't they? It makes no sense.

This is brought up every year and, every year, it's established that there's probably not enough discussion to keep individual threads for each of the two airports going plus a place to talk everything else going on in the state. I also follow a thread for smaller airports in Florida (DAB, MLB, GNV, etc.) and it's a struggle to a) find it and b) keep it going; I had to comb the (sometimes miserable to use) search engine when AA announced DAB-DFW/PHL to post the news.

"If it ain't broke", etc.

These forums really need a "Like" button in addition to a revamp of the search engine. Perfect summary of why this is maintained as an all-Ohio thread (sans CLE).

In other news, the Buckeyes leave today from LCK in a (now becoming standard) UAL 77W down to MSY for the Sugar Bowl:

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/UAL ... /KLCK/KMSY

Wonder if anyone caught a photo. Would've been a great opportunity to catch a few 77Ws with PAL on the ground, UAE on the way, and KAL recently departed.

Usually this would be accompanied by several fan charters as well. Not thinking that will be the case this year.

DeltaRules wrote:

BNAMealer wrote:

Yeah, honestly, CVG and CMH should have their own threads anyway. Their peers do, so why can't they? It makes no sense.

This is brought up every year and, every year, it's established that there's probably not enough discussion to keep individual threads for each of the two airports going plus a place to talk everything else going on in the state. I also follow a thread for smaller airports in Florida (DAB, MLB, GNV, etc.) and it's a struggle to a) find it and b) keep it going; I had to comb the (sometimes miserable to use) search engine when AA announced DAB-DFW/PHL to post the news.

"If it ain't broke", etc.

edit- I also like seeing what's going on at CVG but probably wouldn't otherwise seek it out unless it were in this thread.

There are plenty of smaller airports that see their own threads where not much discussion happens (i.e, SAT, MEM), so I'm not sure if that argument holds weight. I do think CVG should get its own thread, since it is not actually in Ohio and it does have some significant stuff happening (like the Amazon hub).

Well, let's ask a few CMH questions for 2021 to get the conversation started:

1. How does CMH bounce back?
2. What routes do we think/know will be coming back?
3. What new routes?
4. What's next for NK? AS?
5. Anyone new coming?

CMHMarc787 wrote:

Well, let's ask a few CMH questions for 2021 to get the conversation started:

1. How does CMH bounce back?
2. What routes do we think/know will be coming back?
3. What new routes?
4. What's next for NK? AS?
5. Anyone new coming?

1. 75% of 2019 would probably be an amazing recovery.
2. I would say most likely to see SFO-CMH on UA return. It seemed to be decently utilized before. This assumes that CA gets back on track.
3. If AA doesn't bring it back, I would see someone filling in the LAX route. Maybe NK or UA in that order.
4. NK possibly to fill that LAX role. AS just get that increased frequency to SEA. Would like another West Coast route though? SFO?
5. BA to launch the first transatlantic route. (0.00001% chance, but we can wish.)

Side note, just noticed an A320 from CLT to CMH tonight. Glad to see a mainline from CLT again.

From atbPy at the end of the last thread:

Looks like some help is coming to some of the smaller airports in the state.

The legislation would permit the creation of airport development districts at Akron-Canton Airport, Akron Fulton Municipal Airport, Cincinnati Municipal Lunken Airport, Youngstown-Warren Regional Airport, and Dayton International Airport.

https://www.indeonline.com/story/news/2 ... 067837001/

I anticipate JetBlue will either enter CMH or CVG this year. I think CMH is more likely, but CVG is possible too.

If they enter CMH, I anticipate they will add JFK/BOS/EWR/FLL. I think LAX is also possible if AA drops this route. But I think it's more like they start off with their Northeastern focus cities and add 1 Florida airport. The AA codeshare should help make JFK/BOS/EWR work.

If they enter CVG, I think it will just be JFK/BOS/EWR. DL is still likely to have presence to Florida and own most of the Latin American and transcon market from CVG, so I think FLL and LAX would not work.

tphuang wrote:

I anticipate JetBlue will either enter CMH or CVG this year. I think CMH is more likely, but CVG is possible too.

I agree that B6 re-entering CMH is a possibility with B6 having already re-entered a few other destinations that it previously pulled out of such as ATL and BNA. There is also likely room for B6 on BOS-CMH with WN no longer serving BOS nonstop from CMH.

CMH and CVG were also two of the top U.S. destinations traveled to from BOS prior to the COVID-19 pandemic that aren't currently served by B6.

tphuang wrote:

I anticipate JetBlue will either enter CMH or CVG this year. I think CMH is more likely, but CVG is possible too.

If they enter CMH, I anticipate they will add JFK/BOS/EWR/FLL. I think LAX is also possible if AA drops this route. But I think it's more like they start off with their Northeastern focus cities and add 1 Florida airport. The AA codeshare should help make JFK/BOS/EWR work.

I think you may be on to something with LAX; the market has shown two carriers can support it, so AA could drop it and throw their code on if B6 picks it up. They could also do the same with JFK.

WN dropping BOS opens up an opportunity for someone to go up against DL and who better than B6? FLL might be a bit busy with WN, NK, and G4 (via LCK) flying it, but not impossible.

CMHMarc787 wrote:

Well, let's ask a few CMH questions for 2021 to get the conversation started:

1. How does CMH bounce back?
2. What routes do we think/know will be coming back?
3. What new routes?
4. What's next for NK? AS?
5. Anyone new coming?

1. 75-80% would be fantastic, but realistically 60% given the slow vaccine rollout. I think it all depends on whether we can speed that up in time for summer travel.
2. We know HOU and STL on WN are scheduled to come back in March, and we know seasonal MSY and MYR on NK are scheduled to come back in the spring as well. MCO on F9 just returned last week. YYZ on AC is scheduled to return according to the most recent OAG thread - in Feb I believe? My hopes for returning routes are below.

3/4/5 by airline:

AA: I hope they realize they made a mistake in dropping LAX and restart it, but as this is unlikely, slapping the code on a new B6 flight wouldn’t be bad at all! Other than that I hope the new seasonal CUN flights are successful enough to become annual and I hope DFW returns to 100% mainline. CLT mainline sticking around and the return of a second PHX frequency would be good too. Finally, I hope MIA goes all 175 at some point this year as the 145s are phased out.
AC: The return of multiple daily YYZ frequencies on the CRJ is my hope. If summer travel is a thing this year, the occasional upguage to CR9 or 175 would be a nice bonus.
AS: Hoping for a switchover to 738/9 on the SEA route (as was planned pre-COVID) since they are returning the leases Airbus aircraft. Dark horse candidate for other west coast routes if they are dropped by AA/UA but I have my doubts AS will expand much this year.
DL: RDU is a permanent cut, which leaves BOS, SLC, and LAX as the question marks. I believe LAX will return, particularly if AA drops it, but am not as confident about BOS or SLC. I think a lot depends on whether other carriers pick up these routes. Other than that, return of some additional mainline on hub routes to DTW or MSP would be great.
F9: the return of MCO was a pleasant surprise. Maybe we will see one other dartboard leisure route this year but I don’t expect much else. They haven’t shown much of a desire to challenge the growth of airlines like NK at CMH or G4 at LCK.
NK: Definite expansion potential since we know they are planning for more frequencies this spring and the return of seasonal flights- apparently finding good success to leisure markets from CMH. Would love to see them pick up LAX if no one else does, and would also like to see regular upguages to 321s on some routes as we saw over the holidays. A connection to their hub at DTW isn’t out of the question either IMO since the only competition is DL.
UA: The return of SFO is the big question, would hope it comes back as well as regular mainline to DEN. The CRJ-550s to ORD/EWR are nice so I’m hoping that is maintained. Jury is still out on the seasonal RSW flights. Other than that I think it will be a quiet year for UA at CMH.
WN: BOS is probably gone for good, all other routes look to be restored by spring. We know seasonal RSW will be starting as well. It would be great to see LAX if AA drops it, or another unserved west coast market, but I think the real name of the game this year for WN at CMH is restoring frequency.

Other: as many have mentioned, B6 is the obvious contender for new (re)entrant. I would hope for BOS and JFK (maybe FLL?) on the e190/a220 and LAX on the a320 with an AA code. That would be a phenomenal New Years gift to us all!

NK adding CMH-LAX would be bad news for any legacy on that route, AA isn't going to want to add back a route like this with daily ULCC competition.

Is Southwest's CMH-LAS nonstop route being suspended?

September11 wrote:

Is Southwest's CMH-LAS nonstop route being suspended?

Yes, from the booking website it looks strangely like a temporary suspension of the daily frequency from 1/10 through 3/10, and then an increase in frequency immediately upon resumption on 3/11 to 2x daily.

CMHMarc787 wrote:

Well, let's ask a few CMH questions for 2021 to get the conversation started:

1. How does CMH bounce back?
2. What routes do we think/know will be coming back?
3. What new routes?
4. What's next for NK? AS?
5. Anyone new coming?

1) I think travel will rebound once there's confidence in the vaccines to protect people (or at least reduce the severity of) COVID. It'll just be a question of if it's gradual or if there's a surge of people with cabin fever escaping the bounds of their homes.
2) Discussed in other posts. I think the first step will be reconnecting the still-missing dots, of which there aren't many (YYZ, SFO, LAX, SLC, etc.).
3) The wild card is the new frontier, which is domestic travel. I never would've seen UA trying point-to-point like RSW prior to COVID, so the question becomes what Sun destinations might be added (Florida, the Southwest, California, maybe Mexico/Caribbean), which dots might be up for grabs (G4 still hasn't added IWA or LAS and could try SJU; SAN and PBI also immediately come to mind for cities which fit that bill; AUS seems to be America's darling city for whatever reason), and who might run them (G4 mentioned before; WN or NK stick out for SAN, WN for PBI; F9 and G4 have already tried AUS and pulled it.)

What I always look to is what other comparable airports in the region (IND, CVG, CLE, PIT) have service-wise as a guide for possible expansion.

4) NK could do some of the Sun flying I mentioned in 3 or try to trash yields head-to-head with legacies, but I don't know which they'd go for.
5) Looking at B6 here. Breeze could also be a possibility, but I more see DAY in their future.

Any update on Alaska Airlines & CVG? They were supposed to start Aug 18th but obviously circumstances prevented that. Has the CVG route been canned for good?

Also the Delta 767-300ER CVG-CDG service, any word of when that route will return?

I guess we will continue to daydream longer for nonstop London service.

spdbrd007 wrote:

Any update on Alaska Airlines & CVG? They were supposed to start Aug 18th but obviously circumstances prevented that. Has the CVG route been canned for good?

AS still currently has SEA-CVG nonstop service in its flight schedules starting on 5/20/2021, but that start date might get pushed further back.

spdbrd007 wrote:

Any update on Alaska Airlines & CVG? They were supposed to start Aug 18th but obviously circumstances prevented that. Has the CVG route been canned for good?

Also the Delta 767-300ER CVG-CDG service, any word of when that route will return?

I guess we will continue to daydream longer for nonstop London service.

DL's CVG-CDG is scheduled to resume on May 2, though I think it's likely to be pushed back further. TBH I wouldn't be surprised if they wait until Spring 2022 when demand will be much stronger.

a320flyer wrote:

spdbrd007 wrote:

Any update on Alaska Airlines & CVG? They were supposed to start Aug 18th but obviously circumstances prevented that. Has the CVG route been canned for good?

Also the Delta 767-300ER CVG-CDG service, any word of when that route will return?

I guess we will continue to daydream longer for nonstop London service.

DL's CVG-CDG is scheduled to resume on May 2, though I think it's likely to be pushed back further. TBH I wouldn't be surprised if they wait until Spring 2022 when demand will be much stronger.

CVG-CDG is still on the schedule but, the airport admin isn't expecting it back anytime soon, I agree that my guess is the earliest to expect it back is 2022 and then the aircraft of choice for that route ( 767-300ER ) retires in 2025 so what operates it next? Alaska on the other hand is still slated and ready to go at CVG for daily service to SEA. Alaska is more than ready to start this route.

I would like to see B6 JetBlue return to CMH,to BOS and JFK to start out with.

There was an article titled "Dayton airport wants to stop ‘passenger leakage.’ Here are its ‘fly local’ plans" in the Dayton Daily News on 12/24/2020, and that article can be found at https://www.daytondailynews.com/news/dayton-airport-wants-to-stop-passenger-leakage-here-are-its-fly-local-plans/VTBGFJYJCJHBNC6E3WHFDIATQM/.

AA adding DAY-PHX nonstop service might be a possibility with
(a) DAY-PHX being within the range of E-175 regional jets with AA having recently added DFW-EUG (approximately the same distance as DAY-PHX) using E-175 regional jets,
(b) the connections that AA would be able to offer to other destinations in California, Vegas, and Arizona through PHX, and
(c) an average of over 200 passengers per day connecting to destinations in California, Nevada, and Arizona from DAY in Q3 2019.

DL adding DAY-SLC nonstop service might be a possibility with the connections that DL would be able to offer to the West Coast, Idaho, Nevada, and Western Montana through SLC and with DAY-SLC being within the range of E-175 regional jets. AA, DL, UA, and AS have all operated nonstop routes longer than DAY-SLC using E-175 regional jets.

DL adding DAY-BOS nonstop service might be a possibility once demand recovers with DL having nonstop service to BOS from some other U.S. markets not served by B6 such as CVG, CMH, IND, MCI, MKE, and ORF.

DL re-adding DAY-LGA nonstop service might be a possibility with AA having made significant cuts out of NYC during the COVID-19 pandemic, including dropping most of its non-hub nonstop routes out of LGA and JFK.

UA dropped DAY-EWR nonstop service in January 2020 and dropped DAY-IAH nonstop service in March 2020. I am unsure if UA would re-add DAY-EWR/IAH nonstop service anytime soon with UA having dropped both of these routes last year and with demand being significantly down during the COVID-19 pandemic.

G4 adding less-than-daily DAY-FLL/SRQ/SAV nonstop service might also be a possibility with G4 already serving FLL, SRQ, and SAV nonstop from other Midwestern cities.

Despite the push by Dayton International Airport for more service out of DAY, it seems unlikely for any of the US3 carriers to add additional nonstop routes out of DAY anytime soon. The most likely possibilities for expansion at DAY are G4 adding less-than-daily DAY-FLL/SRQ/SAV nonstop service and increased frequencies on existing AA, DL, and UA nonstop routes out of DAY.

DAY best bet is Spirit and maybe get Breeze.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

jplatts wrote:

There was an article titled "Dayton airport wants to stop ‘passenger leakage.’ Here are its ‘fly local’ plans" in the Dayton Daily News on 12/24/2020, and that article can be found at https://www.daytondailynews.com/news/dayton-airport-wants-to-stop-passenger-leakage-here-are-its-fly-local-plans/VTBGFJYJCJHBNC6E3WHFDIATQM/.

AA adding DAY-PHX nonstop service might be a possibility with
(a) DAY-PHX being within the range of E-175 regional jets with AA having recently added DFW-EUG (approximately the same distance as DAY-PHX) using E-175 regional jets,
(b) the connections that AA would be able to offer to other destinations in California, Vegas, and Arizona through PHX, and
(c) an average of over 200 passengers per day connecting to destinations in California, Nevada, and Arizona from DAY in Q3 2019.

They don't even have DAY-LAX/SFO/LAS (according to August schedules) and they want PHX for connections? Madness. DEN and DFW give DAY all the relevant high volume CA/NV/AZ connections.

MIflyer12 wrote:

They don't even have DAY-LAX/SFO/LAS (according to August schedules) and they want PHX for connections? Madness. DEN and DFW give DAY all the relevant high volume CA/NV/AZ connections.

LAX and SFO are probably too far from DAY to be able to be served nonstop on regional jets with DAY-LAX/SFO being longer than any nonstop route that AA, DL, UA, or AS operates on regional jets, whereas PHX is likely within the range of E-175 regional jets with AA, DL, UA, and AS all operating longer nonstop routes using E-175 regional jets.

DL can operate DAY-LAX nonstop service with a 109-seat A220-100, whereas AA or UA would have to use an A319 or larger plane to operate DAY-LAX nonstop service. DL can also offer connections to Hawaii, Australia, and the San Francisco Bay Area through LAX.

DAY-LAS is likely within the range of E-175 regional jets with UA operating E-175 regional jets on slightly longer routes such as SFO-STL/MSN, but LAS is unlikely to ever be served nonstop from DAY on any of the US3 carriers.

G4 adding less-than-daily DAY-LAS nonstop service might be a possibility, but G4 does not offer connections through LAS to other destinations.

BNAMealer wrote:

DeltaRules wrote:

BNAMealer wrote:

Yeah, honestly, CVG and CMH should have their own threads anyway. Their peers do, so why can't they? It makes no sense.

This is brought up every year and, every year, it's established that there's probably not enough discussion to keep individual threads for each of the two airports going plus a place to talk everything else going on in the state. I also follow a thread for smaller airports in Florida (DAB, MLB, GNV, etc.) and it's a struggle to a) find it and b) keep it going; I had to comb the (sometimes miserable to use) search engine when AA announced DAB-DFW/PHL to post the news.

"If it ain't broke", etc.

edit- I also like seeing what's going on at CVG but probably wouldn't otherwise seek it out unless it were in this thread.

There are plenty of smaller airports that see their own threads where not much discussion happens (i.e, SAT, MEM), so I'm not sure if that argument holds weight. I do think CVG should get its own thread, since it is not actually in Ohio and it does have some significant stuff happening (like the Amazon hub).

Hello! Long term lurker, first time poster. (I spent the first 19 years of life in the TOL area.)

There is no easy answer right to these discussion threads? Could Columbus (could be a Columbus area thread) and CVG hold their own threads? Certainly, but I do think this thread would die and become a thread that only has a page or two of posts over the course of the year and gets forgotten about in a year. I also think that a CVG thread will struggle with anything Amazon related, as is the best place for it a hypothetical CVG thread or the Amazon thread, or is it both?

The long and short of it? A good argument could be made either way in the argument which likely means it just runs in a circle.

Side note: will be interesting to see what Breeze does in the state. I do think that DAY is a good option depending on where they are flying to. I'd love to see TOL at some point, but I think there is a greater issue than just DTW up the road that as long as the port authority is running the show, that the airport will suffer.

tys777 wrote:

There is no easy answer right to these discussion threads? Could Columbus (could be a Columbus area thread) and CVG hold their own threads? Certainly, but I do think this thread would die and become a thread that only has a page or two of posts over the course of the year and gets forgotten about in a year. I also think that a CVG thread will struggle with anything Amazon related, as is the best place for it a hypothetical CVG thread or the Amazon thread, or is it both?

The long and short of it? A good argument could be made either way in the argument which likely means it just runs in a circle.

IND is in a similar situation and yet, it gets its own thread while the rest of Indiana has a single thread.

BNA and MEM are in similar situations and yet, they get their own thread while the rest of Tennessee has their own thread.

Smaller airports such as BHM, MSN, GSO, etc, have their own thread.

The discussion length can vary from year to year. Heck, last year, RDU didn't even hit 100 posts until the final month. I'm not trying to be argumentative, but it just baffles me that CVG and CMH are the only mid-sized markets/airports that can't get their own thread (when there is more going on at the former than CLE). It makes zero sense.

By this logic, we should lump every non-connecting hub/major market airport into their respective state threads.

BNAMealer wrote:

tys777 wrote:

There is no easy answer right to these discussion threads? Could Columbus (could be a Columbus area thread) and CVG hold their own threads? Certainly, but I do think this thread would die and become a thread that only has a page or two of posts over the course of the year and gets forgotten about in a year. I also think that a CVG thread will struggle with anything Amazon related, as is the best place for it a hypothetical CVG thread or the Amazon thread, or is it both?

The long and short of it? A good argument could be made either way in the argument which likely means it just runs in a circle.

IND is in a similar situation and yet, it gets its own thread while the rest of Indiana has a single thread.

BNA and MEM are in similar situations and yet, they get their own thread while the rest of Tennessee has their own thread.

Smaller airports such as BHM, MSN, GSO, etc, have their own thread.

The discussion length can vary from year to year. Heck, last year, RDU didn't even hit 100 posts until the final month. I'm not trying to be argumentative, but it just baffles me that CVG and CMH are the only mid-sized markets/airports that can't get their own thread (when there is more going on at the former than CLE). It makes zero sense.

By this logic, we should lump every non-connecting hub/major market airport into their respective state threads.

Hello everyone and Happy New Year, I hope everyone had a safe, healthy and happy holiday season. First, regarding how the thread is organized-- can we please just keep it the way it is? We have a pretty functional little group here and it allows us to effectively keep track of what is going on with the the aviation events here in the State. As I think was said above, if its not broken let's not try to fix it.

As far as 2021 and what may happen, I think I will be completely totally happy if we just stop the bleeding and slowly return back to normal. CMH is about 50% of what we were, so even if we are back to 75% that would be a great win in my book. I think there is definitely a possibility of B6 returning, given the AA partnership, with JFK and BOS being pretty obvious first round destinations as well as maybe LAX. I am curious about how the AA and AS partnership will impact the AS operation here, if at all. I was doing some dummy bookings last week and had a segment on AS as part of a routing, which was the first time I had seen that. (it was CMH to SEA and offered: CMH-DFW-GEG-SEA. The GEG-SEA portion was on AS operated by Horizon!)

In terms of facilities, I am happy to see the CONRAC almost completed, that will be a nice first step towards the new terminal at CMH. Interestingly, there is a possibility that additional stimulus money from the feds may support accelerating the timeline of the new terminal construction-- especially if the plans for it are far enough along for it to be considered close to "shovel ready." One thing they will have going for them is that it will be on mostly undeveloped land, so there wont be the cost of keeping the old terminal operating while also building on, over, and around it for a new structure.

As for other dreams (TATL, Asia, that long desired Non-Stop to XXXX city,) that is probably a year off. At least I will probably get more segments that way. Stay safe everyone!

MIflyer12 wrote:

jplatts wrote:

There was an article titled "Dayton airport wants to stop ‘passenger leakage.’ Here are its ‘fly local’ plans" in the Dayton Daily News on 12/24/2020, and that article can be found at https://www.daytondailynews.com/news/dayton-airport-wants-to-stop-passenger-leakage-here-are-its-fly-local-plans/VTBGFJYJCJHBNC6E3WHFDIATQM/.

AA adding DAY-PHX nonstop service might be a possibility with
(a) DAY-PHX being within the range of E-175 regional jets with AA having recently added DFW-EUG (approximately the same distance as DAY-PHX) using E-175 regional jets,
(b) the connections that AA would be able to offer to other destinations in California, Vegas, and Arizona through PHX, and
(c) an average of over 200 passengers per day connecting to destinations in California, Nevada, and Arizona from DAY in Q3 2019.

They don't even have DAY-LAX/SFO/LAS (according to August schedules) and they want PHX for connections? Madness. DEN and DFW give DAY all the relevant high volume CA/NV/AZ connections.

The article didn't say anything about PHX, but mentioned BOS and LAX specifically. BOS would have to be DL (connections) unless NK took a flyer on it with incentive money. Given how well AA seems to be doing at DAY (plus the PSA base), they could possibly make sense, though it'd be a longshot. LAX would also probably be down to DL (thanks to the A220) or NK if they started.

I could see G4 growing DAY, too (LAS? IWA? More Florida/Southeast?), especially if Breeze comes to town and they hop on the defensive.

As someone who flies AA out of DAY, I would love to see the DAY-LAX route resumed (a former PI route). The A319 could work for DAY-LAX service on AA, and could take advantage of some of AA's onward service from LAX.

Some capacity changes beginning today at CMH:

-Unfortunately AA to DFW has lost a mainline frequency again and is now 2x 738, 2x E75 through FEB. This is down from 3x mainline in DEC (but still a big improvement from all E75 in fall 2020). Both CLT and CMH retain mainline with 1x A320.

- On a positive note, UA mainline returns to CMH with the morning DEN departure (and evening arrival) back to a 319 through JAN. This had been 2x E75 for the past few months.

Any other equipment changes?

tys777 wrote:

Hello! Long term lurker, first time poster. (I spent the first 19 years of life in the TOL area.)

There is no easy answer right to these discussion threads? Could Columbus (could be a Columbus area thread) and CVG hold their own threads? Certainly, but I do think this thread would die and become a thread that only has a page or two of posts over the course of the year and gets forgotten about in a year. I also think that a CVG thread will struggle with anything Amazon related, as is the best place for it a hypothetical CVG thread or the Amazon thread, or is it both?

The long and short of it? A good argument could be made either way in the argument which likely means it just runs in a circle.

Side note: will be interesting to see what Breeze does in the state. I do think that DAY is a good option depending on where they are flying to. I'd love to see TOL at some point, but I think there is a greater issue than just DTW up the road that as long as the port authority is running the show, that the airport will suffer.

With regards to TOL, normally I would agree with you, however, with the board that is in there now, things are a bit different. I've been a critic for over 20 years and have given props when they deserve it and I think we should give this tenure a little bit more credit. Gone are the days of the old school, old boys club thinking "we are Toledo and we deserve to get it and not work for it." The new members that have been appointed to the board have drive to move things forward and look down the road. Within the last three years, there has been forward thinking like "what do we need to do next? or how can we be better?" kind of attitude. They have rehabbed pretty much all of the taxiways and runways within the last 5 years and next they are looking into facilities. Nothing specific has been stated, but it's been mentioned several times - it's time to invest in the physical structures now. They are doing a strategic study to identify opportunities and work on strengths and what they should pursue long range. That's being performed by Aelivon Pacific.

Now, there's also another player trying for a power struggle at the airport and that is John Robinson Block - owner of The Blade and the Pittsburgh Post Gazette. He's trying to team up with the city (Wade) to take it back over from the Port and get the city to run it (well under some other kind of airport authority). I'll tell you this - Wade is only in it for "what can it do for himself and the city's coffers?" They are also doing a strategic study being done by Campbell-Hill and that cost is being split by the city/county and JRB. JRB's attitude is unrealistic thinking that there needs to be a third runway out there (see article below). He also thinks the airport is about commercial planes taking off and landing and nothing else out there. Currently, hangar space is at a premium, the old BAX facility is home of Tron Air (one of the largest ground supporting equipment manufacturers in the world), the old BAX maintenance facility is currently undergoing rehab to allow for a third party logistics company to come in and run scheduled cargo flights, Grand Aire had a phenomenal year last second half of the year due to just in time cargo coming in for autos and other manufacturing plants around the area, Toledo Public Schools has a high school maintenance training facility out there, there's another maintenance training facility that just opened up recently - and oh the 180th just built a new hangar...I could go on. I get where JRB is coming from on air service, unless he wants to just write checks to the airlines, it's not going to happen.

My personal opinion - I think they do need a separate authority or governing board, but have it under the current Port Authority veil. There's a ton of educating that has to be done since there are no aviation related personnel on the board. If there was a separate board to just oversee the airports, I could see that as being an advantage to being able to react more quickly to opportunities and being more in touch with what is needed out there. I really think it's a bad idea for the airport to be overseen by the city as I think it's going to create more problems down the road. With regards to air services, right now TOL is in a good position as it's costs are very low compared to other airports and there is access to leisure travelers...question is, how much investment are carriers willing to put into a place like TOL? I could go on and on about what I'd like to see but I don't want to go down that rabbit hole.

Below are the articles:
https://www.toledoblade.com/business/de ... 0200213131
https://www.toledoblade.com/opinion/edi ... 0200223021
https://www.toledoblade.com/opinion/edi ... 0200228033
https://www.toledoblade.com/opinion/edi ... 0200501009
https://www.toledoblade.com/opinion/edi ... 0200728011
https://www.toledoblade.com/local/trans ... 0201217089
https://www.toledoblade.com/opinion/edi ... 0201221131

Another take out of the article jplatts posted is DAY plans on applying for an SCASD grant. Between that and the new JobsOhio funding, they might have a pool to pull from to draw service.

flyinryan99 wrote:

tys777 wrote:

Hello! Long term lurker, first time poster. (I spent the first 19 years of life in the TOL area.)

There is no easy answer right to these discussion threads? Could Columbus (could be a Columbus area thread) and CVG hold their own threads? Certainly, but I do think this thread would die and become a thread that only has a page or two of posts over the course of the year and gets forgotten about in a year. I also think that a CVG thread will struggle with anything Amazon related, as is the best place for it a hypothetical CVG thread or the Amazon thread, or is it both?

The long and short of it? A good argument could be made either way in the argument which likely means it just runs in a circle.

Side note: will be interesting to see what Breeze does in the state. I do think that DAY is a good option depending on where they are flying to. I'd love to see TOL at some point, but I think there is a greater issue than just DTW up the road that as long as the port authority is running the show, that the airport will suffer.

With regards to TOL, normally I would agree with you, however, with the board that is in there now, things are a bit different. I've been a critic for over 20 years and have given props when they deserve it and I think we should give this tenure a little bit more credit. Gone are the days of the old school, old boys club thinking "we are Toledo and we deserve to get it and not work for it." The new members that have been appointed to the board have drive to move things forward and look down the road. Within the last three years, there has been forward thinking like "what do we need to do next? or how can we be better?" kind of attitude. They have rehabbed pretty much all of the taxiways and runways within the last 5 years and next they are looking into facilities. Nothing specific has been stated, but it's been mentioned several times - it's time to invest in the physical structures now. They are doing a strategic study to identify opportunities and work on strengths and what they should pursue long range. That's being performed by Aelivon Pacific.

Now, there's also another player trying for a power struggle at the airport and that is John Robinson Block - owner of The Blade and the Pittsburgh Post Gazette. He's trying to team up with the city (Wade) to take it back over from the Port and get the city to run it (well under some other kind of airport authority). I'll tell you this - Wade is only in it for "what can it do for himself and the city's coffers?" They are also doing a strategic study being done by Campbell-Hill and that cost is being split by the city/county and JRB. JRB's attitude is unrealistic thinking that there needs to be a third runway out there (see article below). He also thinks the airport is about commercial planes taking off and landing and nothing else out there. Currently, hangar space is at a premium, the old BAX facility is home of Tron Air (one of the largest ground supporting equipment manufacturers in the world), the old BAX maintenance facility is currently undergoing rehab to allow for a third party logistics company to come in and run scheduled cargo flights, Grand Aire had a phenomenal year last second half of the year due to just in time cargo coming in for autos and other manufacturing plants around the area, Toledo Public Schools has a high school maintenance training facility out there, there's another maintenance training facility that just opened up recently - and oh the 180th just built a new hangar...I could go on. I get where JRB is coming from on air service, unless he wants to just write checks to the airlines, it's not going to happen.

My personal opinion - I think they do need a separate authority or governing board, but have it under the current Port Authority veil. There's a ton of educating that has to be done since there are no aviation related personnel on the board. If there was a separate board to just oversee the airports, I could see that as being an advantage to being able to react more quickly to opportunities and being more in touch with what is needed out there. I really think it's a bad idea for the airport to be overseen by the city as I think it's going to create more problems down the road. With regards to air services, right now TOL is in a good position as it's costs are very low compared to other airports and there is access to leisure travelers...question is, how much investment are carriers willing to put into a place like TOL? I could go on and on about what I'd like to see but I don't want to go down that rabbit hole.

Below are the articles:
https://www.toledoblade.com/business/de ... 0200213131
https://www.toledoblade.com/opinion/edi ... 0200223021
https://www.toledoblade.com/opinion/edi ... 0200228033
https://www.toledoblade.com/opinion/edi ... 0200501009
https://www.toledoblade.com/opinion/edi ... 0200728011
https://www.toledoblade.com/local/trans ... 0201217089
https://www.toledoblade.com/opinion/edi ... 0201221131

Thank you!!!! Its good to hear all of the fantastic things on the non passenger side. I remember fondly the days of having a large carg
o hub that keep the airspace busy at night. Its good to hear that the port authority is being a bit more smart with how they do things.

jplatts wrote:

Despite the push by Dayton International Airport for more service out of DAY, it seems unlikely for any of the US3 carriers to add additional nonstop routes out of DAY anytime soon. The most likely possibilities for expansion at DAY are G4 adding less-than-daily DAY-FLL/SRQ/SAV nonstop service and increased frequencies on existing AA, DL, and UA nonstop routes out of DAY.

Agreed - DAY is going to be primarily CRJ flights for a while further yet. It will be some time before the days of a 752 non stop to ATL on DL come back.

I found interesting (and this is the first I've seen it somehow) that Amazon's lease at ILN is at least to 2023: https://www.wvxu.org/post/wilmington-lo ... n#stream/0

Unclear if they'd stay beyond that, but they're looking to keep Amazon and/or bring in new business.

G4 re-introduces LCK-ORF to start in June: https://ir.allegiantair.com/news-releas ... ew-nonstop

G4 adding CVG-PDX nonstop service might be a possibility post-pandemic with
(a) PDX being one of the top destinations without nonstop service from CVG,
(b) G4 recently adding service to PDX,
(c) G4 willing to do less-than-daily nonstop service to PDX from CVG,
(d) G4 having brand recognition in the CVG market to support CVG-PDX nonstop service on G4, and
(e) G4 already having less-than-daily nonstop service to LAX on the West Coast from CVG.

Is G4, AS, or DL likely to add CVG-PDX nonstop service post-pandemic?

An interesting change from today’s OAG thread:

DL BOS-CMH MAR 1.6>2[2]

I did not expect to see DL planning to bring back BOS at 2x daily in March. Anticipating a possible entrance from B6 or simply taking advantage of no competition on the route?

I'm hoping to see the return of TATL flights once demand returns. CLE-LHR anybody? CVG-LHR? CMH?

mjba257 wrote:

I'm hoping to see the return of TATL flights once demand returns. CLE-LHR anybody? CVG-LHR? CMH?

I think it's going to be a looooooooooong time before the likes of CMH/CLE/CVG (excluding CDG)/IND/PIT get TATL back. Those flights were born from and in large part were buoyed by a) discount airlines like WW or DY, who are now dead and/or b) legacy airlines (mostly DL) willing to take chances and had extra flexibility in their fleet and c) airport authorities willing to throw money at them to operate the routes. It won't help things that DL's TATL fleet is going to take a hit in the next few years with the 763s going after the 777s already left.

I don't see how AUS, BNA, and MSY's services appear to have survived this, as I can't see that there's a) enough business travel in the short-term and b) enough tourist draw to any of the three to draw people to/ from Europe.

DeltaRules wrote:

I think it's going to be a looooooooooong time before the likes of CMH/CLE/CVG (excluding CDG)/IND/PIT get TATL back. Those flights were born from and in large part were buoyed by a) discount airlines like WW or DY, who are now dead and/or b) legacy airlines (mostly DL) willing to take chances and had extra flexibility in their fleet and c) airport authorities willing to throw money at them to operate the routes. It won't help things that DL's TATL fleet is going to take a hit in the next few years with the 763s going after the 777s already left.

Once the pandemic is over and the economy recovers, IND will get TATL back. Maybe not with DL, but someone will come in and pick up the service. IND-CDG was highly successful and profitable. The fares on the route were high and there was significant belly cargo. When you have high fares, good loads, and a lot of belly cargo, someone is going to come in and pick up the service. The 767 was often booked to capacity over the summer. The route during the summer months could have supported a larger aircraft like an A330. But we will see I guess. Who knows what a recovered economy will really look like. Even when the economy recovers, individual spending on things like European vacations may take longer to recover as households have burned through savings and run up a lot of debt during the pandemic.

CMHtraveler wrote:

An interesting change from today’s OAG thread:

DL BOS-CMH MAR 1.6>2[2]

I did not expect to see DL planning to bring back BOS at 2x daily in March. Anticipating a possible entrance from B6 or simply taking advantage of no competition on the route?

It makes sense. WN is off the route, DL wants to keep it that way. B6 will not be back, still stinging from the CRAA deal with Skybus.

Citrus1492 wrote:

CMHtraveler wrote:

An interesting change from today’s OAG thread:

DL BOS-CMH MAR 1.6>2[2]

I did not expect to see DL planning to bring back BOS at 2x daily in March. Anticipating a possible entrance from B6 or simply taking advantage of no competition on the route?

It makes sense. WN is off the route, DL wants to keep it that way. B6 will not be back, still stinging from the CRAA deal with Skybus.

With the "strategic alliance" between AA and B6 moving ahead, I wouldn't be surprised if B6 made a return and did BOS & JFK. JFK is currently on COVID hiatus, but B6 could take that over. Plus BOS would be good for One World pax.

Just my $.02

CMHMarc787 wrote:

Citrus1492 wrote:

CMHtraveler wrote:

An interesting change from today’s OAG thread:

DL BOS-CMH MAR 1.6>2[2]

I did not expect to see DL planning to bring back BOS at 2x daily in March. Anticipating a possible entrance from B6 or simply taking advantage of no competition on the route?

It makes sense. WN is off the route, DL wants to keep it that way. B6 will not be back, still stinging from the CRAA deal with Skybus.

With the "strategic alliance" between AA and B6 moving ahead, I wouldn't be surprised if B6 made a return and did BOS & JFK. JFK is currently on COVID hiatus, but B6 could take that over. Plus BOS would be good for One World pax.

Just my $.02

I agree. CMH is almost tailor-made for B6 right now. For one thing, as noted above the new partnership is a plus; there is a strong AA FF base and it is consistently the #1 or #2 largest carrier. Then you look at routes:

BOS - WN off the route, only competition is DL returning at 2x daily (operated by YX).
JFK - AA and DL routes suspended for COVID (again operated by a regional), easy handoff from AA.
LAX - Same as above except they were mainline routes pre-COVID. AA has indicated they will not return and DL was a single daily red eye, return is unknown.

I would think the e190/a220 would be the perfect aircraft for BOS and JFK, especially competing against subcontracted regional service, and a daily 320 for an LAX route that has been shown to be successful (was recently at 2x a319, 1x 739 daily). Can’t imagine they aren’t looking at CMH, a lot has changed on both sides since the Skybus days.

CMHtraveler wrote:

CMHMarc787 wrote:

Citrus1492 wrote:

It makes sense. WN is off the route, DL wants to keep it that way. B6 will not be back, still stinging from the CRAA deal with Skybus.

With the "strategic alliance" between AA and B6 moving ahead, I wouldn't be surprised if B6 made a return and did BOS & JFK. JFK is currently on COVID hiatus, but B6 could take that over. Plus BOS would be good for One World pax.

Just my $.02

I agree. CMH is almost tailor-made for B6 right now. For one thing, as noted above the new partnership is a plus; there is a strong AA FF base and it is consistently the #1 or #2 largest carrier. Then you look at routes:

BOS - WN off the route, only competition is DL returning at 2x daily (operated by YX).
JFK - AA and DL routes suspended for COVID (again operated by a regional), easy handoff from AA.
LAX - Same as above except they were mainline routes pre-COVID. AA has indicated they will not return and DL was a single daily red eye, return is unknown.

I would think the e190/a220 would be the perfect aircraft for BOS and JFK, especially competing against subcontracted regional service, and a daily 320 for an LAX route that has been shown to be successful (was recently at 2x a319, 1x 739 daily). Can’t imagine they aren’t looking at CMH, a lot has changed on both sides since the Skybus days.

Ok, let's say B6 opens CMH again. Trego-Dugan, Envoy or ATS for the ground ops? And which gate? Which bag claim?