Welcome to the Denver Aviation Thread 2021. Please continue your discussion and to post your updates here.

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Denver Aviation Thread - 2020

Hello Everyone,

Here is a quick recap of last year, and a few things to look forward to this year.

2020
-Airport celebrated its 25th anniversary
-Signed new leases for all new gates to both UA and SW, at the time there was still demand for additional gates.
-First flight to the Bahamas.
-New construction company took over the Great Hall project, both milestones for the project were completed weeks early.
-Through out the pandemic, DEN was frequently one of the busiest airports in the country.
-In July 2 gate expansion projects top out.
-Construction began on Pena rehab/expansion
-B West opened
-Numerous domestic destinations added, or additional airlines began serving existing destinations.
-DEN is now the largest station for SW,UA and F9
-Great Hall Phase 2 approved.

2021- Things to come
-The Centurion Lounge will more than likely open in January (no guarantees)
-Pena construction will wrap up in the summer.
-More domestic flights will start/resume.
-B East will open in Q3/Q4
-A West and C East will wrap up Q4/Q1 2021
-Great Hall Phase 1 will be complete by the end of the year, Phase 2 starts construction this summer.
-New train cars will start to arrive this year and be put in service to expand and replace the original train cars
-SW hangar should open.

Hopefully by the summer time things can start to return to somewhat normal.

Thanks for the updates

What's the status of the long haul international flights to Europe and Japan? Any expected long haul / new carrier additions once the industry shows a meaningful recovery?

jhsusman wrote:

What's the status of the long haul international flights to Europe and Japan? Any expected long haul / new carrier additions once the industry shows a meaningful recovery?

well, there won't be any Norwegian, so that dumps LGW/CDG/FCO and certainly the hope of the airport luring TK to IST or KL/AMS and EK/DXB. I can't see NRT coming back this year when UA can funnel through SFO/ORD.

CALMSP wrote:

jhsusman wrote:

What's the status of the long haul international flights to Europe and Japan? Any expected long haul / new carrier additions once the industry shows a meaningful recovery?

well, there won't be any Norwegian, so that dumps LGW/CDG/FCO and certainly the hope of the airport luring TK to IST or KL/AMS and EK/DXB. I can't see NRT coming back this year when UA can funnel through SFO/ORD.

What’s your source on no Norwegian?

Kden95 wrote:

CALMSP wrote:

jhsusman wrote:

What's the status of the long haul international flights to Europe and Japan? Any expected long haul / new carrier additions once the industry shows a meaningful recovery?

well, there won't be any Norwegian, so that dumps LGW/CDG/FCO and certainly the hope of the airport luring TK to IST or KL/AMS and EK/DXB. I can't see NRT coming back this year when UA can funnel through SFO/ORD.

What’s your source on no Norwegian?

I don’t think he needs to provide a source on that.

Edelweiss still has DEN-ZRH scheduled for the summer starting in June.

Kden95 wrote:

CALMSP wrote:

jhsusman wrote:

What's the status of the long haul international flights to Europe and Japan? Any expected long haul / new carrier additions once the industry shows a meaningful recovery?

well, there won't be any Norwegian, so that dumps LGW/CDG/FCO and certainly the hope of the airport luring TK to IST or KL/AMS and EK/DXB. I can't see NRT coming back this year when UA can funnel through SFO/ORD.

What’s your source on no Norwegian?

Norwegian itself.

trexel94 wrote:

Edelweiss still has DEN-ZRH scheduled for the summer starting in June.

I always forget about WK! Would be nice if they came back, but would be shocked if they did given LH group oversight.

I am not sure if anyone including the airlines really knows when some of these routes will resume. Most of the year round routes are canceled on a monthly basis and will most likely depend on travel restrictions.

In the press release about Southwest 15 year anniversary it said that the hangar will not open until Q1 2022. Hopefully it was a misprint, if not that means the hangar is up to 18 months behind schedule. It may be possible that SW found a way to stop construction to save money, but I thought that large projects like this were usually finacaed up front.

CALMSP wrote:

trexel94 wrote:

Edelweiss still has DEN-ZRH scheduled for the summer starting in June.

I always forget about WK! Would be nice if they came back, but would be shocked if they did given LH group oversight.

Agree, I’m amazed they still stuck with us considering WK’s DEN loads have never been great to begin with. Going further, it doesn’t appear WK dropped any American routes. Good for them.

It would be really nice if DIA could persuade Frontier to cut down on their concourse wide PA announcements. They are very loud, repetitive, and drawn out. None of the airlines make concourse wide boarding announcements like Frontier does. It really makes the (already circus-like) A concourse experience even more stressful and chaotic.

The other night I timed it, and Frontier had continuous announcements for 3 minutes and 28 seconds, as they had a large bank of departures. Every gate agent was making the same announcement about boarding, but with the city and flight number changed. It is incredibly annoying. One of these nights I will record it.

November passenger numbers are now available:

Overall the airport was down 45.9% for the month and 51.6% for the year, domestic was down 44.9% and international 69.5%. Flights for the month were down 21.5% and flights for the full year were down 31.4%

Next stats for each airline for Nov:
UA: 1,302,836 (-45.0%)
WN: 802,156 (-46.6%)
F9: 435,778 (-32.5%)
AA: 137,448 (-44.8%)
DL: 92,876 (-65.7%)

YTD stats for each airline.
UA: 12,843,653 (-54.4%)
WN: 9,199,768 (-46.6%)
F9: 4,287,077 (-45.0%)
AA: 1,593,623 (-46.6%)
DL: 1,288,397 (-61.8%)

Volaris is still doing great with the travel demand to Mexico, they have been adding flights and are up 18.2% for the month.

jetmatt777 wrote:

It would be really nice if DIA could persuade Frontier to cut down on their concourse wide PA announcements. They are very loud, repetitive, and drawn out. None of the airlines make concourse wide boarding announcements like Frontier does. It really makes the (already circus-like) A concourse experience even more stressful and chaotic.

The other night I timed it, and Frontier had continuous announcements for 3 minutes and 28 seconds, as they had a large bank of departures. Every gate agent was making the same announcement about boarding, but with the city and flight number changed. It is incredibly annoying. One of these nights I will record it.

You should head down to gates A60, A64-A65, it’s much quieter down there.

SyracuseAvGeek wrote:

jetmatt777 wrote:

It would be really nice if DIA could persuade Frontier to cut down on their concourse wide PA announcements. They are very loud, repetitive, and drawn out. None of the airlines make concourse wide boarding announcements like Frontier does. It really makes the (already circus-like) A concourse experience even more stressful and chaotic.

The other night I timed it, and Frontier had continuous announcements for 3 minutes and 28 seconds, as they had a large bank of departures. Every gate agent was making the same announcement about boarding, but with the city and flight number changed. It is incredibly annoying. One of these nights I will record it.

You should head down to gates A60, A64-A65, it’s much quieter down there.

Its a wonder that so many gate agents never figure it out when they talk over each other or when they announce boarding groups but not the flight number or destination when there are other gates boarding in the same area. And how many times you hear " this is the last an final call..." If they only knew how annoying and frustrating it is to the customer (and nonrevs). I shouldn't vent about this on the Denver site because its true everywhere I go.

Thanks for keeping this thread so well updated. Looking forward to see SkyWest (UA*) add DEN-Farmington NM as soon times get better.

Front page of the Denver Post has a strongly written piece about maintenance at DIA (really lack of). For those that travel through the airport regularly, its not a surprise at all. While a black eye for the airport and the city, its nice that this is finally getting more attention so that the political pressure grows on addressing the issue.

Link to story: https://www.denverpost.com/2021/01/15/denver-airport-maintenance-spending-priorities/

GmoneyCO wrote:

Front page of the Denver Post has a strongly written piece about maintenance at DIA (really lack of). For those that travel through the airport regularly, its not a surprise at all. While a black eye for the airport and the city, its nice that this is finally getting more attention so that the political pressure grows on addressing the issue.

Link to story: https://www.denverpost.com/2021/01/15/denver-airport-maintenance-spending-priorities/

The Denver Auditor's Office clearly points out in the article some of the neglect criticism that has plagued the airport manager and her staff for years now. Nothing gets done because of x, y and z. To top this off the airport management has recently sent out emails asking the people of the region to vote DIA as one of the best US airports. Am I missing something here?

Frontier 14

Frontier14 wrote:

GmoneyCO wrote:

Front page of the Denver Post has a strongly written piece about maintenance at DIA (really lack of). For those that travel through the airport regularly, its not a surprise at all. While a black eye for the airport and the city, its nice that this is finally getting more attention so that the political pressure grows on addressing the issue.

Link to story: https://www.denverpost.com/2021/01/15/denver-airport-maintenance-spending-priorities/

The Denver Auditor's Office clearly points out in the article some of the neglect criticism that has plagued the airport manager and her staff for years now. Nothing gets done because of x, y and z. To top this off the airport management has recently sent out emails asking the people of the region to vote DIA as one of the best US airports. Am I missing something here?

Frontier 14

Many have said for a long time that it is time for Kim Day and several of her leadership team to move on. While she has done a good job with expanding DIA's international presence with new flights, the way the expansion project was managed from the original RFP to the termination of the old contractor and the lack of maintenance of the existing facility has shown its time for her to go.

She's had a rough couple of years with her cancer diagnosis and treatment but her performance before and after her diagnosis is still unacceptable in my view.

GmoneyCO wrote:

Front page of the Denver Post has a strongly written piece about maintenance at DIA (really lack of). For those that travel through the airport regularly, its not a surprise at all. While a black eye for the airport and the city, its nice that this is finally getting more attention so that the political pressure grows on addressing the issue.

Link to story: https://www.denverpost.com/2021/01/15/denver-airport-maintenance-spending-priorities/

I agree with a lot in this article, but after working at the airport for several years now here are my thoughts. While the airport should be spending more money and having better follow up with the big three contracts related to maintenance(the train, conveyances, and janitorial) they have started doing better in the last 3 years. As the contracts have come up for renewal the airport has elected to spend more to have better service. However it does not seems that there has been any better follow up on the contracts from the airport, which is mentioned in the article. It was also mentioned in the article that the conveyance overall have seen less downtime since the new contract was put in place this winter.

As far as the hiring of airport employees for maintenance, I think a big thing that holds the airport back is that everything HR related is tied to the city. The two biggest examples of this are that the airport has a hard time competing with other companies wages for trades workers, and a big part of this is that the airports wages are set by downtown, it is not easy for the airport to pay more even though they have their own budget. The other big holdup has been the city instituted hiring freeze that has been in place for nearly a year. Again the airport has it's own budget for salaries, but the city has said the airport is not allowed to hire anyone due to the city budget not being in good shape. I have always felt that if the airport was it's own authority similar to DFW some of these issues could be overcome, DEN has even lost people to DFW throughout the pandemic because they were still hiring.

Again, there is a lot the airport can improve on, and there is a lot that I agree with as it is frustrating to deal with daily. However, there is always more than the article mentions. Do I think that getting a new CEO would help, I'm not sure. I do think that a lot of the growth that occurred after the recession was due to the airport having low cost compared to other airports. DEN has been UA's first or seconded lowest cost airport to operate out of since the 2010s, going back and forth with IAH, I think that has helped encourage them to grow as much as they have with DEN being $6 cheaper per pax over SFO, IAD and ORD. But being a low cost airport has lead to the issues that we have today.

Anyone think that United or others will pick up the now stopped Norwegian CDG flight?

jhsusman wrote:

Anyone think that United or others will pick up the now stopped Norwegian CDG flight?

If DL eventually makes DEN a focus city (there were pre-covid rumors of them taking a good portion of the new A gates, I believe I remember hearing up to 12), I could see them giving DEN-CDG a stab.

LASVegan wrote:

jhsusman wrote:

Anyone think that United or others will pick up the now stopped Norwegian CDG flight?

If DL eventually makes DEN a focus city (there were pre-covid rumors of them taking a good portion of the new A gates, I believe I remember hearing up to 12), I could see them giving DEN-CDG a stab.

uh, what?

LASVegan wrote:

jhsusman wrote:

Anyone think that United or others will pick up the now stopped Norwegian CDG flight?

If DL eventually makes DEN a focus city (there were pre-covid rumors of them taking a good portion of the new A gates, I believe I remember hearing up to 12), I could see them giving DEN-CDG a stab.

?? Where did this come from

CanadianRedneck wrote:

LASVegan wrote:

jhsusman wrote:

Anyone think that United or others will pick up the now stopped Norwegian CDG flight?

If DL eventually makes DEN a focus city (there were pre-covid rumors of them taking a good portion of the new A gates, I believe I remember hearing up to 12), I could see them giving DEN-CDG a stab.

?? Where did this come from

Some good grass.

United is taking over all of the new A gates; plus all of Delta's current gates. Not sure where this fantasy of Delta starting a focus city is coming from. The lease is signed.

LASVegan wrote:

jhsusman wrote:

Anyone think that United or others will pick up the now stopped Norwegian CDG flight?

If DL eventually makes DEN a focus city (there were pre-covid rumors of them taking a good portion of the new A gates, I believe I remember hearing up to 12), I could see them giving DEN-CDG a stab.

WN and UA would dig a very deep hole to bury DL in.

jhsusman wrote:

Anyone think that United or others will pick up the now stopped Norwegian CDG flight?

while the airport wants CDG/AMS and a ME3 carrier, there's zero chance of that happening this year (except for QR, they'll fly anywhere right now).

bob75013 wrote:

LASVegan wrote:

jhsusman wrote:

Anyone think that United or others will pick up the now stopped Norwegian CDG flight?

If DL eventually makes DEN a focus city (there were pre-covid rumors of them taking a good portion of the new A gates, I believe I remember hearing up to 12), I could see them giving DEN-CDG a stab.

WN and UA would dig a very deep hole to bury DL in.

It ain't gonna happen! Delta would not abandon SLC, or even dial down their SLC operation to start up a larger operation than they have now at DEN, especially given the investments that DL has made in SLC's new terminal.

Being a primarily domestic hub for UA, this airport is the one I believe has the most optimistic future. I hope to see the addition of several new UAX routes, especially as more gate space becomes available: BUF, GRB, GSO, LEX, ORF, TYS

It sounds like DIA is ready to start planning for a 7th runway - I am assuming it will be an East/West strip but not sure if it will be 12K or 16k feet long. Expected first use in 2H28 so they have plenty of time. . .

LASVegan wrote:

If DL eventually makes DEN a focus city (there were pre-covid rumors of them taking a good portion of the new A gates, I believe I remember hearing up to 12), I could see them giving DEN-CDG a stab.

United signed a contract to take the 12 new A gates and 11 existing A gates by Q4 2021.
New: A14-A25
Used: A26, A27, A28, A29, A30, A31, A32, A34, A36, A38, and A40

With the pandemic I don’t know the current plans, but they signed the contract and the Denver city council approved last January.

ADent wrote:

LASVegan wrote:

If DL eventually makes DEN a focus city (there were pre-covid rumors of them taking a good portion of the new A gates, I believe I remember hearing up to 12), I could see them giving DEN-CDG a stab.

United signed a contract to take the 12 new A gates and 11 existing A gates by Q4 2021.
New: A14-A25
Used: A26, A27, A28, A29, A30, A31, A32, A34, A36, A38, and A40

With the pandemic I don’t know the current plans, but they signed the contract and the Denver city council approved last January.

United has stated since the pandemic began that they still want to take all of the new gates, and Southwest has stated the same. I do know that as the new gates open, existing gates may close for the concourse renovations. Delta's current gates on the north side of A will probably take some time to convert to FIS capable gates, and build the new FIS walkway above the gate areas. I am also not sure how long it will take the regional facility on the east side of A will take to be converted from UA back to use for Frontier as that is where they are moving when UA takes their existing gates, it will probably not be until Q2 2022 when United even gets all the gates on A. I imagine by summer 2022 they will definitely be needing all 90 gates.

jhsusman wrote:

It sounds like DIA is ready to start planning for a 7th runway - I am assuming it will be an East/West strip but not sure if it will be 12K or 16k feet long. Expected first use in 2H28 so they have plenty of time. . .

My guess is north of current 8/26, making it 8L/26R; that can be built to 16K feet long.

DenverBrian wrote:

jhsusman wrote:

It sounds like DIA is ready to start planning for a 7th runway - I am assuming it will be an East/West strip but not sure if it will be 12K or 16k feet long. Expected first use in 2H28 so they have plenty of time. . .

My guess is north of current 8/26, making it 8L/26R; that can be built to 16K feet long.

If it is an East/West runway that is exactly what would be next. The other East/West which was in a master plan years ago was south of the cargo area. This wouldn't make sense to be next in line.

https://www.flydenver.com/sites/default ... ochure.pdf

ytib wrote:

DenverBrian wrote:

jhsusman wrote:

It sounds like DIA is ready to start planning for a 7th runway - I am assuming it will be an East/West strip but not sure if it will be 12K or 16k feet long. Expected first use in 2H28 so they have plenty of time. . .

My guess is north of current 8/26, making it 8L/26R; that can be built to 16K feet long.

If it is an East/West runway that is exactly what would be next. The other East/West which was in a master plan years ago was south of the cargo area. This wouldn't make sense to be next in line.

https://www.flydenver.com/sites/default ... ochure.pdf

It’s slated to be the one south of the cargo last I heard... which admittedly, was awhile ago.

Part of the big reason for that is to prevent further encroachment from developments to the S/SW that are now becoming NIMBY issues. It’s amazing to watch just how close the city has gotten to the airport in the last 20 years

joeblow10 wrote:

ytib wrote:

DenverBrian wrote:

My guess is north of current 8/26, making it 8L/26R; that can be built to 16K feet long.

If it is an East/West runway that is exactly what would be next. The other East/West which was in a master plan years ago was south of the cargo area. This wouldn't make sense to be next in line.

https://www.flydenver.com/sites/default ... ochure.pdf

It’s slated to be the one south of the cargo last I heard... which admittedly, was awhile ago.

Part of the big reason for that is to prevent further encroachment from developments to the S/SW that are now becoming NIMBY issues. It’s amazing to watch just how close the city has gotten to the airport in the last 20 years

The E/W runway at the cargo area was considered when there was thought to having a passenger terminal down there - perhaps specifically designated for international or ULCCs. One of the big bottlenecks for expansion of passenger terminals to the originally platted Terminals D and E to the north is that the train system is too small to handle additional traffic to future D and future E, so they've been playing around with the idea of adding gates very near the Great Hall, allowing those pax to walk instead of taking the train. DIA's a bit of a hot mess right now.

Whichever one it is, another E/W is desperately needed. Seems strong west wind days are increasing in frequency. It cripples the airport going to 2 runways ops on those days.

They can launch them pretty fast on 7/25, but the arrival rate gets slaughtered.

Edit: also, with the airport's original infrastructure nearing 30 years old, it will probably be time to do a significant rehabilitation/reconstruction of the original runways within the next decade or so. If a 3rd E/W runway is not built soon, the airport will likely have to deal with a year or two operating on one E/W runway while the other is rebuilt. Having this 3rd runway would allow some breathing room for when rehab/reconstruction is necessary on the existing runways. It will be sooner than later.

jetmatt777 wrote:

Whichever one it is, another E/W is desperately needed. Seems strong west wind days are increasing in frequency. It cripples the airport going to 2 runways ops on those days.

They can launch them pretty fast on 7/25, but the arrival rate gets slaughtered.

Edit: also, with the airport's original infrastructure nearing 30 years old, it will probably be time to do a significant rehabilitation/reconstruction of the original runways within the next decade or so. If a 3rd E/W runway is not built soon, the airport will likely have to deal with a year or two operating on one E/W runway while the other is rebuilt. Having this 3rd runway would allow some breathing room for when rehab/reconstruction is necessary on the existing runways. It will be sooner than later.

If they were to add 7R/25L they would be able to do mixed operations on 25R if needed, sometimes during the strong west wind days they already have 25 as mixed if it is a light departure hour. The main motivation for the other 25 is the limited community pushback by building now before the area directly south of the airport gets developed. That area shouldn't get developed but it doesn't seem like Aurora cares that much so it probably will. On the other hand, nothing will get built near 8/26 for a long time.

In reference to the runway rehabs, the airport has already been completing these every summer on a rotating schedule, these alone are almost a big enough factor in why a 7th runway is needed now. In summer 2019 there were several times the airport was on a ground delay program due to only having 5 runways available, and these programs will continue going into the future. The recent schedule for them has been:
2018: 7/25
2019: 17R/35L
2020: 17R/35L
2021: 16L/34R
2022: 16R/34L
2023: 16R/34L

Last I saw about 2 years or so ago was the next runway was to be North of 8/26 and 14,000 ft. long, but as joeblow10 stated, that south runway may be the priority now to stop development getting any closer to the airport.

I seem to remember seeing some plans to have a taxiway from 25 down to the south runway if it were to be built. That would be quite the undertaking if it's still planned.

mkorpal333 wrote:

I seem to remember seeing some plans to have a taxiway from 25 down to the south runway if it were to be built. That would be quite the undertaking if it's still planned.

While having a cool looking bridge is not a good enough reason to justify the south runway being next, it doesn't hurt either.

Current 7/25 at the top, cargo area off to the right.

Those would be some monumental taxi times if they used that runway for west landings.

What about more flights out of Colorado Springs or Fort Collins to connect at other hubs?
How about an elevated bridge to B or C? Might be a nice place for a food court with a view as well if they make it bigger.

DenverTed wrote:

What about more flights out of Colorado Springs or Fort Collins to connect at other hubs?
How about an elevated bridge to B or C? Might be a nice place for a food court with a view as well if they make it bigger.

well, UA did just announce an increase for COS ops.

What ever happened with the construction upstairs on A west? I think it was rumored to be Priority Pass lounge at one point, but I haven't seen anything about it.

jetmatt777 wrote:

Those would be some monumental taxi times if they used that runway for west landings.

I would imagine 25R (current) would be used for mixed operations/landings and aircraft would take B4 back similar to how it it used today, where 25L would be exclusively departures..

303dk wrote:

What ever happened with the construction upstairs on A west? I think it was rumored to be Priority Pass lounge at one point, but I haven't seen anything about it.

It is still under construction, it will be a Priority Pass lounge. No opening date has been announced, but based on the progress made so far I would estimate that it will open in the summer/fall.

Did the original concept back about 1990, call for 6 E-W and 6 N-S runways?

DenverTed wrote:

Did the original concept back about 1990, call for 6 E-W and 6 N-S runways?

8 N/S and 4 E/W, the primary flow of the airport is usually from the north or south.

ADent wrote:

LASVegan wrote:

If DL eventually makes DEN a focus city (there were pre-covid rumors of them taking a good portion of the new A gates, I believe I remember hearing up to 12), I could see them giving DEN-CDG a stab.

United signed a contract to take the 12 new A gates and 11 existing A gates by Q4 2021.
New: A14-A25
Used: A26, A27, A28, A29, A30, A31, A32, A34, A36, A38, and A40

With the pandemic I don’t know the current plans, but they signed the contract and the Denver city council approved last January.

United's plans for DEN have not changed in fact since the pandemic began DEN has been our top performing hub across several metrics, this in spite of us having to go head to head with WN.

Last week in our most recent town hall meeting UA stated their objective domestically this year is to rebuild our mid-continent hubs. Right now UA is operating more daily flights out of DEN than ORD. As a matter of fact UA at ORD now lags behind IAH in terms of daily flights. Looking at UA's January operation out of DEN we are averaging 311 daily departures, IAH is averaging 295 daily departures while ORD is down to 259 daily departures. Depending on the vaccine rollout and how the recovery goes it is entirely possible come summer 2021 UA at DEN could reach 500 daily departures on peak travel days. Everything that I've heard thus far about UA and DEN and IAH is do not expect UA to take its foot off the gas pedal at either of these hubs. Post-pandemic it is possible DEN could permanently replace ORD as UA's largest hub.