joeljack wrote:

Does anybody know when security situation is going to be fixed? My friend said it took him a hour and 15 minutes to make it through yesterday morning and he said everything was open at both north and south checkpoints as well as the bridge. He said line moved fast but the length of it was atrociously long and snaked through every hallway and baggage claim area imaginable.

everything is open, but the north checkpoint has shrunk due to construction.

CALMSP wrote:

joeljack wrote:

Does anybody know when security situation is going to be fixed? My friend said it took him a hour and 15 minutes to make it through yesterday morning and he said everything was open at both north and south checkpoints as well as the bridge. He said line moved fast but the length of it was atrociously long and snaked through every hallway and baggage claim area imaginable.

everything is open, but the north checkpoint has shrunk due to construction.

I flew a week ago and without TSA pre check looked like it would take more than an hour as was well into the line was well into the baggage area.

bfitzflyer wrote:

CALMSP wrote:

joeljack wrote:

Does anybody know when security situation is going to be fixed? My friend said it took him a hour and 15 minutes to make it through yesterday morning and he said everything was open at both north and south checkpoints as well as the bridge. He said line moved fast but the length of it was atrociously long and snaked through every hallway and baggage claim area imaginable.

everything is open, but the north checkpoint has shrunk due to construction.

I flew a week ago and without TSA pre check looked like it would take more than an hour as was well into the line was well into the baggage area.

Is this being corrected as part of expansion project? Probably short on security lines by 50% during high times.

bfitzflyer wrote:

CALMSP wrote:

joeljack wrote:

Does anybody know when security situation is going to be fixed? My friend said it took him a hour and 15 minutes to make it through yesterday morning and he said everything was open at both north and south checkpoints as well as the bridge. He said line moved fast but the length of it was atrociously long and snaked through every hallway and baggage claim area imaginable.

everything is open, but the north checkpoint has shrunk due to construction.

I flew a week ago and without TSA pre check looked like it would take more than an hour as was well into the line was well into the baggage area.

Nothing unusual for Denver. Since 9/11, this airport has been a mess. Long walks, crowded trains, outrageously long security lines, inefficient layout of rental car facilities etc... I dread Denver.

seatback wrote:

bfitzflyer wrote:

CALMSP wrote:

everything is open, but the north checkpoint has shrunk due to construction.

I flew a week ago and without TSA pre check looked like it would take more than an hour as was well into the line was well into the baggage area.

Nothing unusual for Denver. Since 9/11, this airport has been a mess. Long walks, crowded trains, outrageously long security lines, inefficient layout of rental car facilities etc... I dread Denver.

It’s one of those airports that just takes forever to do anything. It’s no better for employees.

joeljack wrote:

Does anybody know when security situation is going to be fixed? My friend said it took him a hour and 15 minutes to make it through yesterday morning and he said everything was open at both north and south checkpoints as well as the bridge. He said line moved fast but the length of it was atrociously long and snaked through every hallway and baggage claim area imaginable.

There are three main issues currently:

1. TSA staffing, yesterday morning most of the lanes were open, but there were still a couple closed. While an additional few lanes will not make a huge difference, it would help some. The last update I heard was TSA was short nearly 20% of their staff. During the summer it wasn't as bad as there were numerous officers from other airports on the coast that had not recovered as much as DEN. Currently DEN is receiving 1 van load of officers from COS daily which is enough to staff one additional lane.

2.Airline schedules have changed. During the pandemic, UA made their banks tighter, more connections in a shorter time period. WN moved from a rolling bank system to a banked system, and of course their bank times are similar to UAs. So even though the airport is still down in overall passenger traffic, there are several hours throughout the day where more people are trying to pass through TSA than in 2019.

3. North impacted by construction. The North security checkpoint was reduced from 12 to 8 lanes to accommodate the construction of the new security checkpoint on level 6. While this may be a bigger issue in the future, until TSA can staff all lanes during every peak period it doesn't have as big of an effect currently.

These issues will probably not go away anytime soon and will probably last through the holiday season. TSA is working on staffing and have hired nearly 100 people who are currently in training. Additional automated lanes will be added to both North and South screening which have about 50% more throughput than the traditional lanes. The airport is also looking at expanding either South or the Bridge screening to add a few additional lanes.

DIA inks $84 million in contracts to start major planning for 7th runway

Denver International Airport’s plans for a seventh runway received a green light from city leaders Monday to begin the environmental review phase — a major step that would tee up the project for federal approval and funding.


https://www.denverpost.com/2021/09/27/d ... ew-runway/

adv40624 wrote:

DIA inks $84 million in contracts to start major planning for 7th runway

Denver International Airport’s plans for a seventh runway received a green light from city leaders Monday to begin the environmental review phase — a major step that would tee up the project for federal approval and funding.


https://www.denverpost.com/2021/09/27/d ... ew-runway/

The information presented to Council can be found here

https://denver.legistar.com/Legislation ... s=&Search=

jetmatt777 wrote:

seatback wrote:

bfitzflyer wrote:

I flew a week ago and without TSA pre check looked like it would take more than an hour as was well into the line was well into the baggage area.

Nothing unusual for Denver. Since 9/11, this airport has been a mess. Long walks, crowded trains, outrageously long security lines, inefficient layout of rental car facilities etc... I dread Denver.

It’s one of those airports that just takes forever to do anything. It’s no better for employees.

Also, my understanding is that airlines and vendors are having trouble hiring people because of the distance and time it takes to get to the airport making the low pay not worth the hassle of a daily trek to DIA. Lots of converging issues that won't be solved soon, if at all.

https://www.businessinsider.com/denver- ... 2021-9?amp

Janitorial staff threatening strike. Those disgusting bathrooms are about to get even worse… assuming they go through with it

The bathrooms are one area I do NOT understand the airport's lack of motion on. They are relatively small, so construction costs to remodel them one at a time over the past 5 years would be hardly noticeable. They don't need to be like the Ritz Carlton, but each bathroom has needed a complete basic remodel (and installation of ventilation fans) for years. You are right, they are absolutely disgusting. I've seen truck stop restrooms in the desert in better condition. And the smell...why they don't have positive ventilation is beyond me. They need a ventilation system like casinos do to remove cigarette smoke. The smells creep out into the concourse and into the adjacent stairwells. It makes for a completely unpleasant and sickening experience.

seatback wrote:

jetmatt777 wrote:

seatback wrote:

Nothing unusual for Denver. Since 9/11, this airport has been a mess. Long walks, crowded trains, outrageously long security lines, inefficient layout of rental car facilities etc... I dread Denver.

It’s one of those airports that just takes forever to do anything. It’s no better for employees.

Also, my understanding is that airlines and vendors are having trouble hiring people because of the distance and time it takes to get to the airport making the low pay not worth the hassle of a daily trek to DIA. Lots of converging issues that won't be solved soon, if at all.

Not to mention even with the ez-pass it is still $21.60 round trip from where I live in the north part of Denver to Pena and the airport. A great way to get some help would be to offer an RTD (bus or train) pass or Toll pass for employees.

werba wrote:

seatback wrote:

jetmatt777 wrote:

It’s one of those airports that just takes forever to do anything. It’s no better for employees.

Also, my understanding is that airlines and vendors are having trouble hiring people because of the distance and time it takes to get to the airport making the low pay not worth the hassle of a daily trek to DIA. Lots of converging issues that won't be solved soon, if at all.

Not to mention even with the ez-pass it is still $21.60 round trip from where I live in the north part of Denver to Pena and the airport. A great way to get some help would be to offer an RTD (bus or train) pass or Toll pass for employees.

All City of Denver employees get an RTD Ecopass for free as part of their benefits package from the city which covers travel on the train, bus, etc. negating a lot of the cost but not the lost time. While this doesn't cover vendor employees at the airport, I know a lot of them offer the benefit to their employees as well. If you jump on the A-line train around a shift change at the airport, its packed with airport employees riding the train to the Stapleton area.

RTD is also having an issue hiring bus/train drivers and mechanics right now. While not related to the airport, they're offering $21/hr+ starting for a bus driver and $26.50+/hr for mechanics and they don't have the airport commute associated with them. I suspect RTD will need to get north of $30/hr to get labor at this point which will push the airport closer to $40/hr for similar jobs.

werba wrote:

seatback wrote:

jetmatt777 wrote:

It’s one of those airports that just takes forever to do anything. It’s no better for employees.

Also, my understanding is that airlines and vendors are having trouble hiring people because of the distance and time it takes to get to the airport making the low pay not worth the hassle of a daily trek to DIA. Lots of converging issues that won't be solved soon, if at all.

Not to mention even with the ez-pass it is still $21.60 round trip from where I live in the north part of Denver to Pena and the airport. A great way to get some help would be to offer an RTD (bus or train) pass or Toll pass for employees.

Tolls in Denver (mainly E470) are absolutely ridiculous… so I doubt the city or vendors would pay for employees to use them. I don’t ever see the company that owns the roads budging on a reduced cost until the bonds are supposedly paid off in the 2040s

joeblow10 wrote:

werba wrote:

seatback wrote:

Also, my understanding is that airlines and vendors are having trouble hiring people because of the distance and time it takes to get to the airport making the low pay not worth the hassle of a daily trek to DIA. Lots of converging issues that won't be solved soon, if at all.

Not to mention even with the ez-pass it is still $21.60 round trip from where I live in the north part of Denver to Pena and the airport. A great way to get some help would be to offer an RTD (bus or train) pass or Toll pass for employees.

Tolls in Denver (mainly E470) are absolutely ridiculous… so I doubt the city or vendors would pay for employees to use them. I don’t ever see the company that owns the roads budging on a reduced cost until the bonds are supposedly paid off in the 2040s

agreed, the tolls in Colorado as a whole are outrageous and they only continue to expand roads as toll only.

Unless a major breakthrough happens soon, DIA's janitors will go out on strike tomorrow (Friday 10/1).

https://kdvr.com/news/local/hundreds-of-denver-international-airport-janitors-will-go-on-strike/

And it looks like they did go on strike

https://denver.cbslocal.com/2021/10/01/ ... -workload/

yeah, a few just sitting outside on the plaza at the hotel.

And now being reported that security company HSS may go on strike now.

AndoAv8R wrote:

And it looks like they did go on strike

https://denver.cbslocal.com/2021/10/01/ ... -workload/

And back to work

Friday afternoon SEIU Local 105 announced Flagship had agreed to start negotiations next week and the workers had agreed to return to work on Saturday.

From: https://denver.cbslocal.com/2021/10/01/ ... otiations/


Other news:
Delays possible at DIA due to staffing issues at control tower

DIA said Friday afternoon the airport is having staffing issues at its control tower, causing flight delays. The airport said delays may continue throughout the evening.

The FAA provided a status, saying due to staffing, there is a traffic management program in effect for planes arriving to the Denver airport.

From: https://kdvr.com/news/local/delays-poss ... rol-tower/



Denver International Airport warns travelers to arrive early Friday due to long security lines
The airport is experiencing security wait times exceeding 40 minutes as of Friday morning and could grow

Denver International Airport is warning travelers to arrive to the airport at least two hours before their flights due to busy security lines, according to a Friday morning news release.

From: https://www.denverpost.com/2021/10/01/d ... october-1/

Here are the number of passengers, number of seats, and load factors for WN flights out of DEN in July 2021:
ABQ-DEN - 23111 passengers, 25105 seats, 92.06% load factor
ALB-DEN - 8698 passengers, 9412 seats, 92.41% load factor
ATL-DEN - 32205 passengers, 34882 seats, 92.33% load factor
AUS-DEN - 43918 passengers, 51680 seats, 84.98% load factor
BDL-DEN - 9542 passengers, 10402 seats, 91.73% load factor
BHM-DEN - 7116 passengers, 8025 seats, 88.67% load factor
BNA-DEN - 48976 passengers, 54862 seats, 89.27% load factor
BOI-DEN - 16719 passengers, 20518 seats, 81.48% load factor
BOS-DEN - 25594 passengers, 27323 seats, 93.67% load factor
BUF-DEN - 9435 passengers, 10259 seats, 91.97% load factor
BUR-DEN - 29508 passengers, 32270 seats, 91.44% load factor
BWI-DEN - 45168 passengers, 47977 seats, 94.15% load factor
BZN-DEN - 20355 passengers, 32315 seats, 62.99% load factor
CHS-DEN - 7857 passengers, 9109 seats, 86.26% load factor
CLE-DEN - 19111 passengers, 20168 seats, 94.76% load factor
CLT-DEN - 8252 passengers, 9122 seats, 90.46% load factor
CMH-DEN - 22155 passengers, 24454 seats, 90.60% load factor
COS-DEN - 26359 passengers, 36037 seats, 73.14% load factor
CVG-DEN - 10649 passengers, 11768 seats, 90.49% load factor
DAL-DEN - 65785 passengers, 75528 seats, 87.10% load factor
DEN-DSM - 7110 passengers, 7933 seats, 89.63% load factor
DEN-DTW - 16536 passengers, 18026 seats, 91.73% load factor
DEN-ECP - 6581 passengers, 8153 seats, 80.72% load factor
DEN-ELP - 6238 passengers, 6721 seats, 92.81% load factor
DEN-FAT - 8175 passengers, 8853 seats, 92.34% load factor
DEN-FLL - 15474 passengers, 17507 seats, 88.39% load factor
DEN-GEG - 24929 passengers, 28014 seats, 88.99% load factor
DEN-GRR - 15615 passengers, 16814 seats, 92.87% load factor
DEN-HDN - 6059 passengers, 9327 seats, 64.96% load factor
DEN-HOU - 53053 passengers, 60292 seats, 87.99% load factor
DEN-IAD - 17310 passengers, 18913 seats, 91.52% load factor
DEN-IAH - 22273 passengers, 26595 seats, 83.75% load factor
DEN-ICT - 8827 passengers, 9478 seats, 93.13% load factor
DEN-IND - 26611 passengers, 29467 seats, 90.31% load factor
DEN-JAX - 9256 passengers, 10099 seats, 91.65% load factor
DEN-LAS - 64808 passengers, 72132 seats, 89.85% load factor
DEN-LAX - 43649 passengers, 47379 seats, 92.13% load factor
DEN-LGA - 14888 passengers, 15890 seats, 93.69% load factor
DEN-LGB - 27017 passengers, 32189 seats, 83.93% load factor
DEN-LIT - 7096 passengers, 7549 seats, 94.00% load factor
DEN-MAF - 5039 passengers, 7263 seats, 69.38% load factor
DEN-MCI - 37440 passengers, 42999 seats, 87.07% load factor
DEN-MCO - 43560 passengers, 47196 seats, 92.30% load factor
DEN-MDW - 65682 passengers, 72342 seats, 90.79% load factor
DEN-MEM - 7037 passengers, 7722 seats, 91.13% load factor
DEN-MIA - 15304 passengers, 18235 seats, 83.93% load factor
DEN-MKE - 29544 passengers, 33350 seats, 88.59% load factor
DEN-MSP - 32912 passengers, 36609 seats, 89.90% load factor
DEN-MSY - 23845 passengers, 27149 seats, 87.83% load factor
DEN-MTJ - 6466 passengers, 8866 seats, 72.93% load factor
DEN-OAK - 45332 passengers, 48961 seats, 92.59% load factor
DEN-OKC - 23792 passengers, 25547 seats, 93.13% load factor
DEN-OMA - 29193 passengers, 33243 seats, 87.82% load factor
DEN-ONT - 25189 passengers, 26332 seats, 95.66% load factor
DEN-ORD - 40150 passengers, 44934 seats, 89.35% load factor
DEN-ORF - 7839 passengers, 8392 seats, 93.41% load factor
DEN-PDX - 43402 passengers, 46680 seats, 92.98% load factor
DEN-PHL - 26954 passengers, 28711 seats, 93.88% load factor
DEN-PHX - 71639 passengers, 80170 seats, 89.36% load factor
DEN-PIT - 15654 passengers, 16794 seats, 93.21% load factor
DEN-PNS - 8104 passengers, 9109 seats, 88.97% load factor
DEN-PSP - 7759 passengers, 9474 seats, 81.90% load factor
DEN-RDU - 19282 passengers, 20836 seats, 92.54% load factor
DEN-RIC - 7400 passengers, 8012 seats, 92.36% load factor
DEN-RNO - 24013 passengers, 27749 seats, 86.54% load factor
DEN-RSW - 8734 passengers, 9828 seats, 88.87% load factor
DEN-SAN - 58249 passengers, 61826 seats, 94.21% load factor
DEN-SAT - 29585 passengers, 33155 seats, 89.23% load factor
DEN-SAV - 1167 passengers, 1287 seats, 90.68% load factor
DEN-SBA - 8298 passengers, 9474 seats, 87.59% load factor
DEN-SDF - 8615 passengers, 9572 seats, 90.00% load factor
DEN-SEA - 47367 passengers, 52970 seats, 89.42% load factor
DEN-SFO - 22282 passengers, 24294 seats, 91.72% load factor
DEN-SJC - 35846 passengers, 40795 seats, 87.87% load factor
DEN-SLC - 51090 passengers, 65522 seats, 77.97% load factor
DEN-SMF - 44780 passengers, 49677 seats, 90.14% load factor
DEN-SNA - 50233 passengers, 57159 seats, 87.88% load factor
DEN-SRQ - 7632 passengers, 8885 seats, 85.90% load factor
DEN-STL - 43925 passengers, 49276 seats, 89.14% load factor
DEN-TPA - 33581 passengers, 36444 seats, 92.14% load factor
DEN-TUL - 15989 passengers, 17633 seats, 90.68% load factor
DEN-TUS - 16835 passengers, 18694 seats, 90.06% load factor

August passenger counts, nothing too crazy to report. The numbers started coming back down with the Delta wave. Southwest still over 100% for several months now compared to 2019.

heard from a few sources that the two 727s north of C, DIA 001 (N7285U) and N192FE, will be disposed at some point soon.

always a curiosity and quite interesting relics, but I'm guessing the expansion leaves them without room.

They are completely dilapidated and not really properly stored; I don’t think even a mechanic school would be interested in taking them for free. They really do need to just go straight into the can-press and turned into 6 packs.

jetmatt777 wrote:

They are completely dilapidated and not really properly stored; I don’t think even a mechanic school would be interested in taking them for free. They really do need to just go straight into the can-press and turned into 6 packs.

yeah, 192 is missing dust guards on her engines. I'm sure the rot is just too much now. but there goes my shady break spot.

jetmatt777 wrote:

They are completely dilapidated and not really properly stored; I don’t think even a mechanic school would be interested in taking them for free. They really do need to just go straight into the can-press and turned into 6 packs.

I always thought they were fire/rescue crew training.

cosyr wrote:

jetmatt777 wrote:

They are completely dilapidated and not really properly stored; I don’t think even a mechanic school would be interested in taking them for free. They really do need to just go straight into the can-press and turned into 6 packs.

I always thought they were fire/rescue crew training.

I think they are deicing trainers also. My point was that they are not salvageable for any purpose really, before someone comments that it is sad they aren’t being saved. Museum pieces they are not.

Denver is now the third busiest airport in the world. TSA lines of three hours are the norm and the airport ran out of parking last weekend. They have managed to finally reopen one remote lot, but with limited operating hours. As my home airport, I am ashamed to see what has happened to this once jewel.

https://kdvr.com/news/local/dia-is-curr ... the-world/

https://twitter.com/JesseAPaul/status/1 ... 80162?s=20

Are they simply not running trains back at pre-covid frequencies?

Denver is like the perfect storm now. Many things have combined to make it a nightmare for travelers. When the airport first opened in 1995, 65% of the passengers connected in Denver. Today, that number is 65% OD and only 35% connecting. Southwest did not even operate out of DIA when it opened. Their growth has been nothing short of amazing to watch at DIA. There was talk about putting a pedestrian tunnel from the main terminal to the concourses when the airport was under design, but this idea was shelfed because of cost overruns. In 2000, a proposal for the first phase of a walkway between concourses A and B was estimated to cost $60M, or about $95 million in today's dollars. The plan was scrapped, in part over cost concerns and logistics. 9/11 brought of course many changes to the security process at DIA and the Great Hall was put into use as the TSA checkpoint. The changes with security and growth that Colorado has experienced has left the airport trying to play catchup ever since. In 2019, DIA handled over 69M passengers. The Great Hall project was going to fix many of these problems by moving TSA to level 6 from level 5 and the current level 5 will be post security, so we were told. The Great Hall project in my opinion has been miss managed since day one. I have never been a fan of the previous management team at DIA and it is too early to see how the new management team will do. The original contractor from the Great Hall project was fired and replaced. Lawsuits have been filed. Bottom line is the program is way late and not even 50% finished at this point. Completion date is now 2024 and it is millions of dollars over budget. The worst part is that in order to save money, they have scaled back a lot of things that were promised when the Great Hall project was announced. So, at some point there will be the Great Hall project number 2 to finish all the things they promised in current Great Hall project. The project has taken away TSA lanes on the north side of level 5. United and Southwest are the two largest carries at DIA and both feed into the south checkpoint. TSA checkpoints will be moving from level 5 to level 6 once the project is completed. At this point, I fail to see how they are going to have the room to do this. The TSA checkpoint on the bridge heading to concourse A still does not offer a TSA precheck line and I am told and has no plans to offer it. Once you walk over the bridge into concourse A you can take the train to the other concourses. October is fall break for many of the schools in Colorado, so the number of people traveling has been back to pre-Covid. Only DFW and ATL are seeing more passengers than DEN presently. The remote shuttle parking lots never reopened post Covid until the Pike's Peak lot reopened with limited hours this past weekend. The lot was open to incoming cars from 9am Friday to 5pm Saturday and then closed again until November. They are still running shuttles to pick people up at the airport, but the lot is closed to incoming cars. A shortage of shuttle drivers is the reason the airport is giving for these lots being closed. Staffing shortages seem to be the number one answer people in charge give when asked about problems at the airport. The city ordered 26 new rail cars in 2018 and they started to arrive in 2020. The net gain is only 10 cars, as 16 current cars will be retired. Once construction is done on the train platform, they plan on adding additional cars to the current train configuration. I am not sure exactly if it is just one additional car or two. Now you also have the janitorial staff on strike at the airport. After reading some of the other user's comments here regarding the bathroom conditions maybe they were always on strike and we just did not know it. So, the perfect storm of problems has arrived at DIA, and it is not going to improve anytime soon unfortunately.

https://www.denverpost.com/2021/08/20/d ... d-flights/
https://www.cpr.org/2018/07/25/city-app ... rs-at-dia/
https://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/l ... long-lines
https://www.dallasnews.com/business/air ... w-flights/

UA will launch daily DEN-MUC flights with the 789 starting April 23rd, 2022. We will now at some point have as many as four daily flights to Germany. Seems a bit like overcapacity. Is there a reason why UA is hesitant to start fresh routes out of DEN like the rest of its hubs? They seem to like experimenting recently.

Also LHR will resume next spring as well.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.9news. ... b829a81c2d

trexel94 wrote:

UA will launch daily DEN-MUC flights with the 789 starting April 23rd, 2022. We will now at some point have as many as four daily flights to Germany. Seems a bit like overcapacity. Is there a reason why UA is hesitant to start fresh routes out of DEN like the rest of its hubs? They seem to like experimenting recently.

Also LHR will resume next spring as well.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.9news. ... b829a81c2d

It’s mostly connections. DEN and MUC are both huge Star Hubs. They aren’t flying 4x daily to Germany because that many people fly Germany->Denver daily…

Is DEN-MUC daily on LH? I'm not sure that it is. I think it may be 4 or 5x weekly but daily only for peak summer.

I'm not really sure what else UA would launch from DEN that would make any more sense. Maybe CDG or AMS, but there'd be no connections on the other end, and there's already competition to CDG. I don't think there are many other unique destinations that would be worth it for UA to overfly the eastern hubs.

As for other Star hubs, they don't seem to care as much about funneling connections through ZRH or BRU either.

FLYKTPA wrote:

trexel94 wrote:

UA will launch daily DEN-MUC flights with the 789 starting April 23rd, 2022. We will now at some point have as many as four daily flights to Germany. Seems a bit like overcapacity. Is there a reason why UA is hesitant to start fresh routes out of DEN like the rest of its hubs? They seem to like experimenting recently.

Also LHR will resume next spring as well.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.9news. ... b829a81c2d

It’s mostly connections. DEN and MUC are both huge Star Hubs. They aren’t flying 4x daily to Germany because that many people fly Germany->Denver daily…

XXX-DEN-MUC/FRA, XXX-MUC/FRA-DEN. A "bridge" of sorts.

Still not sure why United is flying their own planes to FRA/MUC with Lufthansa back, is there really that high of demand? I cant imagine the loads on DEN-MUC at such capacity that DEN can handle 2-nonstops (same with FRA when Lufthansa brings back the 747)?

AndoAv8R wrote:

Still not sure why United is flying their own planes to FRA/MUC with Lufthansa back, is there really that high of demand? I cant imagine the loads on DEN-MUC at such capacity that DEN can handle 2-nonstops (same with FRA when Lufthansa brings back the 747)?

its not a focus on DEN/MUC traffic, its battling against all other airlines for Europe traffic as a whole.

Flair will be joining DEN next year:

The Canadian ultra low-cost carrier (ULCC) will provide nonstop service three-times weekly to Toronto-Pearson International Airport (YYZ) beginning April 15, 2022.

Flight will be operated on a Max 8

Linkhttps://www.flydenver.com/sites/default/files/downloads/21-75%20DEN%20Flair.pdf

DEN1895 wrote:

Flair will be joining DEN next year:

The Canadian ultra low-cost carrier (ULCC) will provide nonstop service three-times weekly to Toronto-Pearson International Airport (YYZ) beginning April 15, 2022.

Flight will be operated on a Max 8

Linkhttps://www.flydenver.com/sites/default/files/downloads/21-75%20DEN%20Flair.pdf

Ambitious to say the least, with huge *A hubs on both ends of the route, but DEN seems to soak up just about every seat thrown at it these days. I wish them luck.

codc10 wrote:

FLYKTPA wrote:

trexel94 wrote:

UA will launch daily DEN-MUC flights with the 789 starting April 23rd, 2022. We will now at some point have as many as four daily flights to Germany. Seems a bit like overcapacity. Is there a reason why UA is hesitant to start fresh routes out of DEN like the rest of its hubs? They seem to like experimenting recently.

Also LHR will resume next spring as well.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.9news. ... b829a81c2d

It’s mostly connections. DEN and MUC are both huge Star Hubs. They aren’t flying 4x daily to Germany because that many people fly Germany->Denver daily…

XXX-DEN-MUC/FRA, XXX-MUC/FRA-DEN. A "bridge" of sorts.

The real opportunity is XXX-DEN-FRA/MUC-XXX. That is what makes the frequency work. It isn't just people flying DEN-FRA or DEN-FRA-TLV. It is people flying things like ABQ-DEN-FRA-TLV which add up.

AshFlops wrote:

codc10 wrote:

FLYKTPA wrote:

It’s mostly connections. DEN and MUC are both huge Star Hubs. They aren’t flying 4x daily to Germany because that many people fly Germany->Denver daily…

XXX-DEN-MUC/FRA, XXX-MUC/FRA-DEN. A "bridge" of sorts.

The real opportunity is XXX-DEN-FRA/MUC-XXX. That is what makes the frequency work. It isn't just people flying DEN-FRA or DEN-FRA-TLV. It is people flying things like ABQ-DEN-FRA-TLV which add up.

I'd be interested to know what % of overwater pax are double-connectors.

codc10 wrote:

AshFlops wrote:

codc10 wrote:

XXX-DEN-MUC/FRA, XXX-MUC/FRA-DEN. A "bridge" of sorts.

The real opportunity is XXX-DEN-FRA/MUC-XXX. That is what makes the frequency work. It isn't just people flying DEN-FRA or DEN-FRA-TLV. It is people flying things like ABQ-DEN-FRA-TLV which add up.

I'd be interested to know what % of overwater pax are double-connectors.

Anyone who doesn't live in a hub, like me in SYR, who don't have non-stops to Europe, and don't just want to visit London, Paris, Frankfurt, etc. Forget secondary European markets, there are plenty of cities in the US I have to take a double connection to.

cosyr wrote:

codc10 wrote:

AshFlops wrote:

The real opportunity is XXX-DEN-FRA/MUC-XXX. That is what makes the frequency work. It isn't just people flying DEN-FRA or DEN-FRA-TLV. It is people flying things like ABQ-DEN-FRA-TLV which add up.

I'd be interested to know what % of overwater pax are double-connectors.

Anyone who doesn't live in a hub, like me in SYR, who don't have non-stops to Europe, and don't just want to visit London, Paris, Frankfurt, etc. Forget secondary European markets, there are plenty of cities in the US I have to take a double connection to.

I get that, and also recognize that some of these passengers are likely paying a premium for the service... but my question wasn't rhetorical. I'm actually interested to know this. For example, that's always been a significant component of the NW/KL and now DL/KL multiple-daily service from MSP/DTW-AMS. Those O&D markets alone could not possibly sustaint that level of service in their own right.

But, with respect to volume, I am just curious how much traffic the "bridge" routings actually generate.

codc10 wrote:

cosyr wrote:

codc10 wrote:

I'd be interested to know what % of overwater pax are double-connectors.

Anyone who doesn't live in a hub, like me in SYR, who don't have non-stops to Europe, and don't just want to visit London, Paris, Frankfurt, etc. Forget secondary European markets, there are plenty of cities in the US I have to take a double connection to.

I get that, and also recognize that some of these passengers are likely paying a premium for the service... but my question wasn't rhetorical. I'm actually interested to know this. For example, that's always been a significant component of the NW/KL and now DL/KL multiple-daily service from MSP/DTW-AMS. Those O&D markets alone could not possibly sustaint that level of service in their own right.

But, with respect to volume, I am just curious how much traffic the "bridge" routings actually generate.

The other thing to remember is that because DEN is a limited O/D market, there is capacity to handle all of these transfer pax. ORD and EWR are very O/D heavy due to them being huge markets. DEN has the airport capacity to handle all of these transfers without sacrificing the O/D market at DEN.

codc10 wrote:

But, with respect to volume, I am just curious how much traffic the "bridge" routings actually generate.

The bridge routings basically draw two sets of traffic: people traveling between small/medium markets on both ends who really have no or limited choice for one-stops (i.e. MCI-PRG or SMF-TLV) and people who are willing to accept the inconvenience of an additional connection to save money (i.e. LAX-DEN-MUC vs non-stop or LAX-DEN-FRA-BER vs. LAX-FRA-BER). The former are pretty profitable since they're still going to pay what the airlines want to charge. The latter just help fill the planes. The bridge routings can help to drive somewhat higher yields by allowing greater diversity of schedules as well; i.e. early/late arrivals in Europe/the U.S.

ScottB wrote:

codc10 wrote:

But, with respect to volume, I am just curious how much traffic the "bridge" routings actually generate.

The bridge routings basically draw two sets of traffic: people traveling between small/medium markets on both ends who really have no or limited choice for one-stops (i.e. MCI-PRG or SMF-TLV) and people who are willing to accept the inconvenience of an additional connection to save money (i.e. LAX-DEN-MUC vs non-stop or LAX-DEN-FRA-BER vs. LAX-FRA-BER). The former are pretty profitable since they're still going to pay what the airlines want to charge. The latter just help fill the planes. The bridge routings can help to drive somewhat higher yields by allowing greater diversity of schedules as well; i.e. early/late arrivals in Europe/the U.S.

In concept, I completely, thoroughly, totally understand. Again, I am just curious if anyone has any actual examples of the volume it generates.

AshFlops wrote:

The other thing to remember is that because DEN is a limited O/D market, there is capacity to handle all of these transfer pax. ORD and EWR are very O/D heavy due to them being huge markets. DEN has the airport capacity to handle all of these transfers without sacrificing the O/D market at DEN.

It’s actually not. The airport was designed to be about 70% connections but now it’s about 70% O&D. The airport’s train system is slammed because there are a lot more O&D passengers using it to get to their gates than originally thought. Denver has exploded in growth in the last 25 years, and unlike the coastal hubs, the nearest major cities to Denver are hundreds of miles away with few good alternative transportation options.

With that said, DEN is still a great place to flow connections, and the airport has virtually unlimited ability to expand.

People keep saying the airport has unlimited capacity to expand and that is 100% not true. The alleyways are congested as it is, and the airfield tends to grind to a halt with the smallest breeze. The train system can’t handle anymore volume and the concourses are already jam packed. Adding another concourse adds load to the train system that it can’t handle, expanding the concourses further adds loads to the concourse facilities that can’t be handled either. And there seems to be zero sense of urgency to remedy any of these issues.

codc10 wrote:

cosyr wrote:

codc10 wrote:

I'd be interested to know what % of overwater pax are double-connectors.

Anyone who doesn't live in a hub, like me in SYR, who don't have non-stops to Europe, and don't just want to visit London, Paris, Frankfurt, etc. Forget secondary European markets, there are plenty of cities in the US I have to take a double connection to.

I get that, and also recognize that some of these passengers are likely paying a premium for the service... but my question wasn't rhetorical. I'm actually interested to know this. For example, that's always been a significant component of the NW/KL and now DL/KL multiple-daily service from MSP/DTW-AMS. Those O&D markets alone could not possibly sustaint that level of service in their own right.

But, with respect to volume, I am just curious how much traffic the "bridge" routings actually generate.

These numbers are from 2018, but they give you an idea. For both Tokyo and Frankfurt it was around 25-30% bridge passengers.

jetmatt777 wrote:

People keep saying the airport has unlimited capacity to expand and that is 100% not true. The alleyways are congested as it is, and the airfield tends to grind to a halt with the smallest breeze. The train system can’t handle anymore volume and the concourses are already jam packed. Adding another concourse adds load to the train system that it can’t handle, expanding the concourses further adds loads to the concourse facilities that can’t be handled either. And there seems to be zero sense of urgency to remedy any of these issues.

well, to be fair, the airport does have almost unlimited room to expand........capacity on current setup is not unlimited.

DEN1895 wrote:

codc10 wrote:

cosyr wrote:

Anyone who doesn't live in a hub, like me in SYR, who don't have non-stops to Europe, and don't just want to visit London, Paris, Frankfurt, etc. Forget secondary European markets, there are plenty of cities in the US I have to take a double connection to.

I get that, and also recognize that some of these passengers are likely paying a premium for the service... but my question wasn't rhetorical. I'm actually interested to know this. For example, that's always been a significant component of the NW/KL and now DL/KL multiple-daily service from MSP/DTW-AMS. Those O&D markets alone could not possibly sustaint that level of service in their own right.

But, with respect to volume, I am just curious how much traffic the "bridge" routings actually generate.

These numbers are from 2018, but they give you an idea. For both Tokyo and Frankfurt it was around 25-30% bridge passengers.

Great insight, thank you! No surprise that multiple frequencies to MUC/FRA are warranted.