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emre787
Posts: 239
Joined: Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:59 pm

Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Wed Feb 17, 2021 9:24 pm

777luver wrote:
LHA320 wrote:
777luver wrote:
I see LH repainted an A340 recently, DAIFF I think, the Star livery


Both D-AIGM and D-AIFF got repainted recently. Both wearing the new livery. D-AIFF used to have the Star livery


Oh thanks for the clarification. Not sure if it means the fleet will be around for a while longer, not cheap to repaint


It was a "technically needed repaint" according to a LH spokesperson

Source (german unfortunately): https://www.aerotelegraph.com/lufthansa ... lackierung
 
SA280
Posts: 103
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2019 1:18 pm

Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Wed Feb 17, 2021 9:24 pm

Are the 777X and LHC's 777F going to share the same crew or each unit will have independent crew groups?
 
777luver
Posts: 709
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:44 am

Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:49 pm

emre787 wrote:
777luver wrote:
LHA320 wrote:

Both D-AIGM and D-AIFF got repainted recently. Both wearing the new livery. D-AIFF used to have the Star livery


Oh thanks for the clarification. Not sure if it means the fleet will be around for a while longer, not cheap to repaint


It was a "technically needed repaint" according to a LH spokesperson

Source (german unfortunately): https://www.aerotelegraph.com/lufthansa ... lackierung


That is definitely odd wording but okay LH haha so maybe they won't stick around
 
Eiszeit
Posts: 94
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:50 pm

Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:59 pm

It might sound odd because it's a literal translation... The repaint has to be done in accordance to the maintenance schedule bladibla... these planes will fly as long as they are deemed economicaly viable (who knows what this "slow" CEO thinks)
 
777luver
Posts: 709
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:44 am

Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Wed Feb 17, 2021 11:19 pm

Eiszeit wrote:
It might sound odd because it's a literal translation... The repaint has to be done in accordance to the maintenance schedule bladibla... these planes will fly as long as they are deemed economicaly viable (who knows what this "slow" CEO thinks)


Why is Spohr slow in your opinion?
 
CRJockey
Posts: 354
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:54 am

Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Thu Feb 18, 2021 7:01 am

SA280 wrote:
Are the 777X and LHC's 777F going to share the same crew or each unit will have independent crew groups?


As of now it is independent because it is literally two different airlines on two different AOCs. Could change in the future.
 
RvA
Posts: 527
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:37 pm

Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Thu Feb 18, 2021 7:24 am

SA280 wrote:
Are the 777X and LHC's 777F going to share the same crew or each unit will have independent crew groups?


They’re not the same operating company so I’d guess independent.
 
User avatar
vfw614
Posts: 4085
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 12:34 am

Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Thu Feb 18, 2021 8:55 am

Eiszeit wrote:
It might sound odd because it's a literal translation... The repaint has to be done in accordance to the maintenance schedule bladibla... these planes will fly as long as they are deemed economicaly viable (who knows what this "slow" CEO thinks)


Given that Lufthansa has sent its A380s, B744s and A340-600s to the desert and has parked half of its 747-8, but is operating every single Airbus A340-300 it has in its inventory, they might be around for some time in a post-COVID19 world.
 
columba
Posts: 5287
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:12 pm

Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:26 am

Lufthansa is in talks with Airbus and Boeing to switch their longhaul orders to smaller jets. I can see Lufthansa switching some of their orders for the 777-9 to 787s as the 777 is delayed and maybe too big of an aircraft for the moment (it makes sense for LH but not now so i doubt the order will be canceled altogether). The 787s are good to replace older A343s as well as A330s within the group. Interesting is also that they are in talks with Embraer on new planes, I always thought LH is a sure candidate for the A220, but coming to think of it, the E2 is a smaller and lighter airplane and can used with Cityline for shorter routes within Germany and Europe. Let´s see how it will turn out:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... aller-jets
 
Flying-Tiger
Posts: 4205
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 1999 5:35 am

Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:07 am

columba wrote:
Lufthansa is in talks with Airbus and Boeing to switch their longhaul orders to smaller jets. I can see Lufthansa switching some of their orders for the 777-9 to 787s as the 777 is delayed and maybe too big of an aircraft for the moment (it makes sense for LH but not now so i doubt the order will be canceled altogether). The 787s are good to replace older A343s as well as A330s within the group. Interesting is also that they are in talks with Embraer on new planes, I always thought LH is a sure candidate for the A220, but coming to think of it, the E2 is a smaller and lighter airplane and can used with Cityline for shorter routes within Germany and Europe. Let´s see how it will turn out:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... aller-jets


Long-Haul:

1. I think the 777-9 days are numbered, and that this order will be switched to 777F and 787-9 and/or -10. One subfleet less, and an increase in both sub fleets to reduce costs of same. No outright cancellation.
2. I think that we will see some of the A350-900 switched to -1000, and a mix of A320neo/321neo/359 being converted to A321XLR.
3. There won´t be any 1:1 fleet replacement, I think it will be an opportunistic distribution of assets between Austria, Brussels, Swiss, Lufthansa, Eurowings and Edelweiss, whatever is deemed suitable.
4. The existing A330/340 fleets can soldier on for quite some time, same goes for the 777-300ER and 747-8 fleets. The 767 and 772s are out. If there is any uptick in the market and capacity needs to be brought in there´s always the option to re-activate existing assets, lease them in from the current large surplus or simply by from the used market.

Short-Haul:

I think that this is only the confirmation of Lufthansa being prepared to send out an RfQ to Airbus and Embraer to discuss the replacement of the CRJ700/900 and Embraer 190/195 (and Q400 and whatever else is left) rather sooner than later.
 
columba
Posts: 5287
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:12 pm

Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:16 am

Flying-Tiger wrote:
columba wrote:

1. I think the 777-9 days are numbered, and that this order will be switched to 777F and 787-9 and/or -10. One subfleet less, and an increase in both sub fleets to reduce costs of same. No outright cancellation.
.


I don´t agree with that assumption. 777-9 will be postponed not cancelled, it is the right plane for LH to replace A380, 747 (both versions) and A346.
 
Capricorn
Posts: 208
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:11 pm

Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:35 am

Apparently LHG wants to increase/add a premium economy by reducing business class instead of reducing economy class. Revenue wise maybe not the worst decision, as I have heard that per m2 the premium economy revenue is close to the the the business class revenue. That also means that LHG will seat more pax in it's planes.

Spohr announced an expansion of Premium Economy Class at the expense of Business Class. "We're reconfiguring our planes," said Spohr. "There will be smaller business class compartments and larger premium economy compartments."


Source (in German): https://www.aerotelegraph.com/mehr-prem ... schrumpfen
 
mig17
Posts: 430
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2016 8:34 am

Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:44 am

columba wrote:
Flying-Tiger wrote:
columba wrote:

1. I think the 777-9 days are numbered, and that this order will be switched to 777F and 787-9 and/or -10. One subfleet less, and an increase in both sub fleets to reduce costs of same. No outright cancellation.
.


I don´t agree with that assumption. 777-9 will be postponed not cancelled, it is the right plane for LH to replace A380, 747 (both versions) and A346.

By definition, a swap from X 777-9 to Y 787 is a consensual cancellation of the X 777-9 backed by a "new" order of Y 787.
There is 0 chance LH is going to order new aircraft now if it is not by swapping existing orders. Now will they swap the entire order or juste part of it is the question but the trend at LH indicates that the 777-9 is not the right plane to "replace" the large one that are living the fleet.
 
columba
Posts: 5287
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:12 pm

Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:56 pm

Different idea - Lufthansa will be the launch customer of the new middle of the market plane ? A321LR seems not to be sufficient for them rangewise from MUC and FRA
 
mikedelta720
Posts: 41
Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2014 1:02 am

Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:05 pm

777luver wrote:
LHA320 wrote:
777luver wrote:
I see LH repainted an A340 recently, DAIFF I think, the Star livery


Both D-AIGM and D-AIFF got repainted recently. Both wearing the new livery. D-AIFF used to have the Star livery


Oh thanks for the clarification. Not sure if it means the fleet will be around for a while longer, not cheap to repaint


Exactly, and D-AIFF looked better in the Star Alliance livery. Why did they bother repainting them? Could've saved them money.
 
Opus99
Posts: 3178
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:30 pm

Are we just going to ignore what actually came out of Spohrs mouth

“We are in the process of negotiating with Airbus and Boeing on additional, smaller, more-efficient aircraft to be brought into the fleet, replacing some of the huge, big but older aircraft we are putting on the ground – [Boeing] 747s, Airbus A380s,” says Spohr, without elaborating on the potential number of aircraft or the types considered.

Key word being additional.
 
emre787
Posts: 239
Joined: Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:59 pm

Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:44 pm

mikedelta720 wrote:

Exactly, and D-AIFF looked better in the Star Alliance livery. Why did they bother repainting them? Could've saved them money.


Already explained:

emre787 wrote:
It was a "technically needed repaint" according to a LH spokesperson

Source (german unfortunately): https://www.aerotelegraph.com/lufthansa ... lackierung
 
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vfw614
Posts: 4085
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 12:34 am

Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Sat Feb 20, 2021 12:09 am

Opus99 wrote:
Are we just going to ignore what actually came out of Spohrs mouth

“We are in the process of negotiating with Airbus and Boeing on additional, smaller, more-efficient aircraft to be brought into the fleet, replacing some of the huge, big but older aircraft we are putting on the ground – [Boeing] 747s, Airbus A380s,” says Spohr, without elaborating on the potential number of aircraft or the types considered.

Key word being additional.


Well, I would put my money on additional as in "in addition to the existing order of 787s / A321s", not as in "in addition to existing overall orders". Which would suggest swapping orders instead of placing new ones. I agree with Flying-Tiger that any switch form 777-9X to 787 would make the end of th T7 order very likely as the Total number would then be too small to make any sense operation wise.
 
Capricorn
Posts: 208
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:11 pm

Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Sat Feb 20, 2021 12:17 am

In addition, German language media, which is usually very good informed about LH, stays by swapping and restructuring existing orders and not additional orders, except Embraer. I also don't see where LH has the needed cash to order new planes. I can see a role for the 777X at LH by the time the 747-8s are retiring, but that is very far in the future.
 
CRJockey
Posts: 354
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:54 am

Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:03 am

Capricorn wrote:
In addition, German language media, which is usually very good informed about LH, stays by swapping and restructuring existing orders and not additional orders, except Embraer. I also don't see where LH has the needed cash to order new planes. I can see a role for the 777X at LH by the time the 747-8s are retiring, but that is very far in the future.


Cash is available left, right and center. The multi billion refinancing is done for the whole of 2021 with long term bonds (4 & 7 years) for more than acceptable interest rates. The first batch of the KfW loan is already paid back. As long as there will be a rebound in traffic somewhere around summertime, financing new jets through the multiple available means in order to strengthen operating efficiency won't be a problem.

In my view, the 777-9 order is here to stay to eventually be the upper end of LHs longhaul heavy haulers, replacing A380 and (far in the future) -8.

A mix of of A350 for LH and probably LX, and 787 for OS, SN and EW discover will form the rest of the longhaul need in the future, replacing the bunch from 767s, 777s, A330s, A346 and 747-400 as well as A343. Not sure I see a place for the A330neo, but who knows. Maybe an opportunistic buy.

Short haul will be A32xneo and A220. I don't really see the E2 coming into the picture.
 
Flying-Tiger
Posts: 4205
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 1999 5:35 am

Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:44 am

columba wrote:
Different idea - Lufthansa will be the launch customer of the new middle of the market plane ? A321LR seems not to be sufficient for them rangewise from MUC and FRA


That bird is so far away in future and undefined that it won´t be on anyone´s decision agenda for quite some time. There might be some nice PR blabla, but no hard commitment whatsoever. And looking on the history of recent new products - even derivates - launched into the market I think there will be some reluctance by carriers to sign up for something years ahead in future with a large likelyhood of long delays.

And: I´ve yet to be convinced that the hypothetical "middle of market" exits, and that new metal is really required for same. Airlines would like it, airframes won´t as it will be a much better commercial proposition to offer A321XLR/737-8ER or 787-8/A330-800 from the lower resp. upper end and keep these lines at proper output.

CRJockey wrote:
In my view, the 777-9 order is here to stay to eventually be the upper end of LHs longhaul heavy haulers, replacing A380 and (far in the future) -8.


Might be, might not be. I tend to lean towards "convert them now, and see what the future brings". The 747-8 are to stay, the A350-900 are to stay, the A330/340 have years to stay, too. The topic of how to replace the 747-8 does not need to be visited for another five years, and who knows what will have come up until then (e.g. A350-1000neo, -2000, 777-9 performance, 787-10neo). Same goes for expanding pax capacity beyond the limits of the 787-9 / A350-900 on short term if needed. You can easily add more of the same or add an existing derivate.

The good thing for Lufthansa (and others): the events have helped them big time to clean up legacy fleets and brought them into a position to consider the future fleet composition on a more or less green field.
 
Opus99
Posts: 3178
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:53 am

Flying-Tiger wrote:
columba wrote:
Different idea - Lufthansa will be the launch customer of the new middle of the market plane ? A321LR seems not to be sufficient for them rangewise from MUC and FRA


That bird is so far away in future and undefined that it won´t be on anyone´s decision agenda for quite some time. There might be some nice PR blabla, but no hard commitment whatsoever. And looking on the history of recent new products - even derivates - launched into the market I think there will be some reluctance by carriers to sign up for something years ahead in future with a large likelyhood of long delays.

And: I´ve yet to be convinced that the hypothetical "middle of market" exits, and that new metal is really required for same. Airlines would like it, airframes won´t as it will be a much better commercial proposition to offer A321XLR/737-8ER or 787-8/A330-800 from the lower resp. upper end and keep these lines at proper output.

CRJockey wrote:
In my view, the 777-9 order is here to stay to eventually be the upper end of LHs longhaul heavy haulers, replacing A380 and (far in the future) -8.


Might be, might not be. I tend to lean towards "convert them now, and see what the future brings". The 747-8 are to stay, the A350-900 are to stay, the A330/340 have years to stay, too. The topic of how to replace the 747-8 does not need to be visited for another five years, and who knows what will have come up until then (e.g. A350-1000neo, -2000, 777-9 performance, 787-10neo). Same goes for expanding pax capacity beyond the limits of the 787-9 / A350-900 on short term if needed. You can easily add more of the same or add an existing derivate.

The good thing for Lufthansa (and others): the events have helped them big time to clean up legacy fleets and brought them into a position to consider the future fleet composition on a more or less green field.

My guess? Nothing would’ve come up in 5 years that’s what. Especially for widebodies. Then you switch this order and then want to switch it back in 5 years?

They should hold the 20. They can play with the options.
 
Capricorn
Posts: 208
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:11 pm

Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:31 pm

CRJockey wrote:
Capricorn wrote:
In addition, German language media, which is usually very good informed about LH, stays by swapping and restructuring existing orders and not additional orders, except Embraer. I also don't see where LH has the needed cash to order new planes. I can see a role for the 777X at LH by the time the 747-8s are retiring, but that is very far in the future.


Cash is available left, right and center. The multi billion refinancing is done for the whole of 2021 with long term bonds (4 & 7 years) for more than acceptable interest rates. The first batch of the KfW loan is already paid back. As long as there will be a rebound in traffic somewhere around summertime, financing new jets through the multiple available means in order to strengthen operating efficiency won't be a problem.


While I agree that LHG is financial in a better position than many of its European peers, I still fail to see how LHG will make enough money in the next year to justify new aircraft purchases.

- More leisure traffic, less business equals less revenue (I linked above the article in which Spohr states, that he wants to add Premium economy at the expense of business class and not economy)
- IMO still overstaffed. While I don't want to see ppl loosing their jobs, having a bloated workforce will not help LHGs balance sheet.
- OS in VIE was under pressure and I don't see FR/Lauda and W6 backing down. Will be quite some challenge. (BRU in a similar situation, but a little better)
- More leisure traffic which leads to a higher seasonal fluctuation. Usually business traffic was very important for the winter months, but with that being reduced I see some challenges ahead.
- Fare war will probably increase post C19 and not decrease. I can see very aggressive pricing from the likes of FR, W6 and U2. Coupled with overcapacity that will be a challenge as well.
- EW was loss making before C19 and the build up of Eurowings Discover will cost money as well.

I don't see LHG in a bad situation, but it would be wise to keep enough cash on hand. I agree, however, that LHG was smart during the crisis and took many actions that will be beneficial in the future.

Flying-Tiger wrote:
CRJockey wrote:
In my view, the 777-9 order is here to stay to eventually be the upper end of LHs longhaul heavy haulers, replacing A380 and (far in the future) -8.


Might be, might not be. I tend to lean towards "convert them now, and see what the future brings". The 747-8 are to stay, the A350-900 are to stay, the A330/340 have years to stay, too. The topic of how to replace the 747-8 does not need to be visited for another five years, and who knows what will have come up until then (e.g. A350-1000neo, -2000, 777-9 performance, 787-10neo). Same goes for expanding pax capacity beyond the limits of the 787-9 / A350-900 on short term if needed. You can easily add more of the same or add an existing derivate.


I agree with this statement. In case there is an upgrade of the A350/B787 available, it would make more sense to buy more of those, as it would allow LHG to eventually only have 2 WB types in its fleet. The only downside is, that LHG probably got a sweetheart deal on the 777X. IMO a good move would be to renegotiate and delay the 777X to the time the 747-8 are supposed to retire and put in contract the right to convert 777X to 787 should the 777X eventually be deemed not necessary.
 
brindabella
Posts: 757
Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:38 am

Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:14 pm

Capricorn wrote:
CRJockey wrote:
Capricorn wrote:
In addition, German language media, which is usually very good informed about LH, stays by swapping and restructuring existing orders and not additional orders, except Embraer. I also don't see where LH has the needed cash to order new planes. I can see a role for the 777X at LH by the time the 747-8s are retiring, but that is very far in the future.


Cash is available left, right and center. The multi billion refinancing is done for the whole of 2021 with long term bonds (4 & 7 years) for more than acceptable interest rates. The first batch of the KfW loan is already paid back. As long as there will be a rebound in traffic somewhere around summertime, financing new jets through the multiple available means in order to strengthen operating efficiency won't be a problem.


While I agree that LHG is financial in a better position than many of its European peers, I still fail to see how LHG will make enough money in the next year to justify new aircraft purchases.

- More leisure traffic, less business equals less revenue (I linked above the article in which Spohr states, that he wants to add Premium economy at the expense of business class and not economy)
- IMO still overstaffed. While I don't want to see ppl loosing their jobs, having a bloated workforce will not help LHGs balance sheet.
- OS in VIE was under pressure and I don't see FR/Lauda and W6 backing down. Will be quite some challenge. (BRU in a similar situation, but a little better)
- More leisure traffic which leads to a higher seasonal fluctuation. Usually business traffic was very important for the winter months, but with that being reduced I see some challenges ahead.
- Fare war will probably increase post C19 and not decrease. I can see very aggressive pricing from the likes of FR, W6 and U2. Coupled with overcapacity that will be a challenge as well.
- EW was loss making before C19 and the build up of Eurowings Discover will cost money as well.

I don't see LHG in a bad situation, but it would be wise to keep enough cash on hand. I agree, however, that LHG was smart during the crisis and took many actions that will be beneficial in the future.

Flying-Tiger wrote:
CRJockey wrote:
In my view, the 777-9 order is here to stay to eventually be the upper end of LHs longhaul heavy haulers, replacing A380 and (far in the future) -8.


Might be, might not be. I tend to lean towards "convert them now, and see what the future brings". The 747-8 are to stay, the A350-900 are to stay, the A330/340 have years to stay, too. The topic of how to replace the 747-8 does not need to be visited for another five years, and who knows what will have come up until then (e.g. A350-1000neo, -2000, 777-9 performance, 787-10neo). Same goes for expanding pax capacity beyond the limits of the 787-9 / A350-900 on short term if needed. You can easily add more of the same or add an existing derivate.


I agree with this statement. In case there is an upgrade of the A350/B787 available, it would make more sense to buy more of those, as it would allow LHG to eventually only have 2 WB types in its fleet. The only downside is, that LHG probably got a sweetheart deal on the 777X. IMO a good move would be to renegotiate and delay the 777X to the time the 747-8 are supposed to retire and put in contract the right to convert 777X to 787 should the 777X eventually be deemed not necessary.


:checkmark:

Many interesting and insightful posts.

Large and (very) diverse fleet.
And, IMO, zero evidence that LHG have any plan to operate a simpler Group operation.

Which, BTW, many of the same posts take as being axiomatic.

:shakehead:

In addition, I have elsewhere alluded to the difference where the 779 is concerned, which is that is now a long way along flight-test,
and I have no doubt that LH, EK, etc etc are being kept completely in the loop.
If the 779 performance in the flight tests shows that it is struggling -bad news.

:worried:

If OTOH the wing/engine/other changes are all humming - good news.

:checkmark:

All the difference in the world to the order book.

The 779 data is available right now - but not to any of us mere mortals.

(Lightsaber may be an honourable exception.
(Folks who have a Jedi sword always get an honourable treatment, in my experience :D ).

cheers
 
Scotron12
Posts: 668
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:13 pm

Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:20 pm

brindabella wrote:
Capricorn wrote:
CRJockey wrote:

Cash is available left, right and center. The multi billion refinancing is done for the whole of 2021 with long term bonds (4 & 7 years) for more than acceptable interest rates. The first batch of the KfW loan is already paid back. As long as there will be a rebound in traffic somewhere around summertime, financing new jets through the multiple available means in order to strengthen operating efficiency won't be a problem.


While I agree that LHG is financial in a better position than many of its European peers, I still fail to see how LHG will make enough money in the next year to justify new aircraft purchases.

- More leisure traffic, less business equals less revenue (I linked above the article in which Spohr states, that he wants to add Premium economy at the expense of business class and not economy)
- IMO still overstaffed. While I don't want to see ppl loosing their jobs, having a bloated workforce will not help LHGs balance sheet.
- OS in VIE was under pressure and I don't see FR/Lauda and W6 backing down. Will be quite some challenge. (BRU in a similar situation, but a little better)
- More leisure traffic which leads to a higher seasonal fluctuation. Usually business traffic was very important for the winter months, but with that being reduced I see some challenges ahead.
- Fare war will probably increase post C19 and not decrease. I can see very aggressive pricing from the likes of FR, W6 and U2. Coupled with overcapacity that will be a challenge as well.
- EW was loss making before C19 and the build up of Eurowings Discover will cost money as well.

I don't see LHG in a bad situation, but it would be wise to keep enough cash on hand. I agree, however, that LHG was smart during the crisis and took many actions that will be beneficial in the future.

Flying-Tiger wrote:

Might be, might not be. I tend to lean towards "convert them now, and see what the future brings". The 747-8 are to stay, the A350-900 are to stay, the A330/340 have years to stay, too. The topic of how to replace the 747-8 does not need to be visited for another five years, and who knows what will have come up until then (e.g. A350-1000neo, -2000, 777-9 performance, 787-10neo). Same goes for expanding pax capacity beyond the limits of the 787-9 / A350-900 on short term if needed. You can easily add more of the same or add an existing derivate.


I agree with this statement. In case there is an upgrade of the A350/B787 available, it would make more sense to buy more of those, as it would allow LHG to eventually only have 2 WB types in its fleet. The only downside is, that LHG probably got a sweetheart deal on the 777X. IMO a good move would be to renegotiate and delay the 777X to the time the 747-8 are supposed to retire and put in contract the right to convert 777X to 787 should the 777X eventually be deemed not necessary.


:checkmark:

Many interesting and insightful posts.

Large and (very) diverse fleet.
And, IMO, zero evidence that LHG have any plan to operate a simpler Group operation.

Which, BTW, many of the same posts take as being axiomatic.

:shakehead:

In addition, I have elsewhere alluded to the difference where the 779 is concerned, which is that is now a long way along flight-test,
and I have no doubt that LH, EK, etc etc are being kept completely in the loop.
If the 779 performance in the flight tests shows that it is struggling -bad news.

:worried:

If OTOH the wing/engine/other changes are all humming - good news.

:checkmark:

All the difference in the world to the order book.

The 779 data is available right now - but not to any of us mere mortals.

(Lightsaber may be an honourable exception.
(Folks who have a Jedi sword always get an honourable treatment, in my experience :D ).

cheers


As you mention, definitely all airlines that have ordered the 779 are informed of the progression of the tests and data being derived from them.

No definitive announcements from EK as to what their final tally will be yet. LH too, if they will keep or switch to a mix of 777Fs and more 787s.

LH sure like their A333s...maybe some A339s are possible?
 
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mercure1
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:31 pm

Report that per internal memo Edelweiss might remove its 2 A330-300s and focus fleet solely on its 4 A340s as it cannot justify the larger fleet.
They acknowledge A340 not long-term solution and needs replacing by 2025 when Swiss plans to remove its small 340 fleet.

https://www.aerotelegraph.com/nur-noch- ... 30-abgeben
 
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mercure1
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:33 pm

One more A380 D-AIMI went to Tarbes on Monday

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/DLH ... /EDDF/LFBT
 
mxaxai
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:19 pm

mercure1 wrote:
One more A380 D-AIMI went to Tarbes on Monday

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/DLH ... /EDDF/LFBT

Tarbes appears to be pretty full, so they probably need to make room first by scrapping some. Hence why LH will fly one A380 per month to LDE instead of all at once. 2 A380 are to be kept in FRA for short term reactivation.
https://www.afp.com/en/news/3954/foot-p ... oc-93947n2
https://simpleflying.com/lufthansa-airbus-a380-tarbes/
 
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zkojq
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Thu Feb 25, 2021 9:11 pm

Regarding the 777-9, I'm sure they will join the fleet eventually, the question is how many. If premium traffic is still in the gutter a year from now, its hard to see them taking delivery of more than ten or so. Delays to the certification will put Lufthansa in a strong position contractually.

Capricorn wrote:
I am still curious why LH seems not interested in the 787-8. With their plan to get a larger market share in leisure long haul routes, it seems like the ideal plane to me.

LX's subsidiary WK puts AFAIK 315 seats in it's A333 and 314 in it's A343 while, comparatively LX mainline puts 236 in the A333 and 223 in the A343. When taking a look at other airlines: TUI UK puts around 300 seats in the 787-8 while DY used to put 292 in it. So I guess LH, or rather Eurowings Discover, would probably put around 270-280 in a 787-8, a size that is ideal for the leisure market and would probably allow LH to offer some long haul flights out of DUS.


With Norwegian getting rid of all 787s, there may yet be room for this to happen in the future. I wouldn't expect Lufthansa to act in the next year on this though - better to wait for stronger signs of recovery first. The Norwegian fleet is quite large so there should still be plenty on the market in a year's time.

777luver wrote:
LHA320 wrote:
777luver wrote:
I see LH repainted an A340 recently, DAIFF I think, the Star livery


Both D-AIGM and D-AIFF got repainted recently. Both wearing the new livery. D-AIFF used to have the Star livery


Oh thanks for the clarification. Not sure if it means the fleet will be around for a while longer, not cheap to repaint


D-AIFF is my favourite plane that still operates for LH. Hope she stays in the fleet for as long as possible.
 
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conaly
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Fri Feb 26, 2021 12:02 pm

Austrian sold three of its six 767-300ER to MonoCoque Diversified Interests. Mentioned are the OE-LAT (1991) and OE-LAX (1992), they will leave the fleet in March and May respectively and will be flown to Pinal Airpark. The third one could be the OE-LAW (1992), that is supposed to leave in November. As these aircraft are all very old I guess they are not being converted to freighters but will end up as tin cans.

Source: https://www.aero.de/news-38843/Austrian ... g-767.html (German)
 
NZ321
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Fri Feb 26, 2021 12:25 pm

I sincerely wish that OS long haul days are not over and that they will end up with a suitably sized fleet of the right a/c (e.g. 789) to continue working their magic on long haul. They leave LH in the dust for service IMHO. And VIE is a superb airport to arrive at in Europe. So easy.
 
mxaxai
Posts: 3109
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Fri Feb 26, 2021 12:48 pm

NZ321 wrote:
I sincerely wish that OS long haul days are not over and that they will end up with a suitably sized fleet of the right a/c (e.g. 789) to continue working their magic on long haul. They leave LH in the dust for service IMHO. And VIE is a superb airport to arrive at in Europe. So easy.

OS announced a slight expansion of their plans for the long haul network in summer 2021 yesterday.
Further resumptions in the summer: Austrian Airlines flies again to Montreal and New York JFK
Destinations

• As of May, Austrian Airlines expands its long-haul service
• Montreal and New York JFK back on offer
• “Our long-haul services are back on a slight climb”, says CCO Michael Trestl

https://www.austrianairlines.ag/Press/P ... sc_lang=en

I also recall that the state support given to OS via LH force LH to maintain a long haul network of a certain size at VIE. So as of today there are no plans to cease long haul flying.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Fri Feb 26, 2021 4:28 pm

The withdrawn 3 OS 767s have been sold to U.S. asset management company MDI.

The first frame OE-LAT is scheduled for delivery to Marana in March.

https://www.diepresse.com/5943045/aua-v ... nflugzeuge
 
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redcap1962
Posts: 264
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:35 am

Austrian source: https://www.austrianwings.info/2021/02/ ... flugzeuge/

....The Boeing 767-300ER go to the US company MonoCoque Diversified Interests. The purchase contract has already been signed. The parties have agreed not to disclose the purchase price. The first aircraft with the registration OE-LAT will leave Vienna in early March for Pinal Airpark, Arizona. The aircraft is currently going through all the necessary preparations for the handover. The next transfer flight is planned for May with OE-LAX. OE-LAT was once procured by Lauda Air as a replacement for the "Mozart" that crashed due to lack of maintenance.

"It is very gratifying that we can sell all three Boeing 767s to one buyer and is a big step in our fleet conversion," says Austrian Airlines CEO Alexis von Hoensbroech. "I would like to thank MonoCoque Diversified Interests for the good discussions and our team for the great commitment."

"MDI is excited to continue growing its portfolio of passenger and cargo aircraft with the addition of three Boeing 767-300ERs," added MDI Manager Mary Alice Keyes. "It was a pleasure to work with Austrian Airlines, a company with a long history and an excellent reputation."

With an average of 28.5 years, the three B767s sold are among the oldest aircraft in the Austrian Airlines fleet. The remaining three B767 are between 20 and 22 years old. After being phased out, Austrian Airlines still has nine long-haul jets at its disposal, which will connect Austria with destinations around the globe - from the USA to the Far East. In detail, there are six Boeing 777s with over 300 seats and three Boeing 767s with over 200 seats.

A total of 28 aircraft will have left the fleet of Austria's home airline by the beginning of 2022: In addition to the three Boeing 767-300ERs mentioned, 18 Dash Turboprops and seven Airbus A319 jets will be handed over. Ten of the turbo-props mentioned have already left Vienna, the remaining eight will follow soon. This means that the fleet will consist of around 60 aircraft by the beginning of 2022. Since mainly smaller aircraft are being decommissioned, this corresponds to a capacity reduction of around 20 percent.

Neither MDI nor Austrian Airlines commented on what will happen to the three 767s that have been phased out. However, due to their age and the high number of flight hours, it can be assumed that these jets will be cannibalized and scrapped.
 
LXA340
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:51 pm

columba wrote:
Different idea - Lufthansa will be the launch customer of the new middle of the market plane ? A321LR seems not to be sufficient for them rangewise from MUC and FRA


I don't think the A321LR makes sense for the LH group as for the routes requiring larger range such as destinations like HKG, Japan or SIN for instance are very high yielding and even for existing East Coast USA routes the A321LR likely would be too small. This type of aircraft will only be interesting for opening up new routes within the 7 to 8 hour range to secondary airports that would only be profitable with smaller equipment.

Concering the am to shift to smaller aircraft, I heard rumours that LX is considering to get rid of it's B77W's which are on average less than 4 years old as they are considered as to large for their needs post COVID. If this is true, there would be a possibility for LH to take these over as A346 replacement / swap for some B779's and instead LH group will order more Dreamliners and or A350's that would then go to LX eventually.
 
Opus99
Posts: 3178
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:53 pm

LXA340 wrote:
columba wrote:
Different idea - Lufthansa will be the launch customer of the new middle of the market plane ? A321LR seems not to be sufficient for them rangewise from MUC and FRA


I don't think the A321LR makes sense for the LH group as for the routes requiring larger range such as destinations like HKG, Japan or SIN for instance are very high yielding and even for existing East Coast USA routes the A321LR likely would be too small. This type of aircraft will only be interesting for opening up new routes within the 7 to 8 hour range to secondary airports that would only be profitable with smaller equipment.

Concering the am to shift to smaller aircraft, I heard rumours that LX is considering to get rid of it's B77W's which are on average less than 4 years old as they are considered as to large for their needs post COVID. If this is true, there would be a possibility for LH to take these over as A346 replacement / swap for some B779's and instead LH group will order more Dreamliners and or A350's that would then go to LX eventually.

This shrink by LH is huge. The same airline that ordered the 77W twice
 
mxaxai
Posts: 3109
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:58 pm

LXA340 wrote:
columba wrote:
Different idea - Lufthansa will be the launch customer of the new middle of the market plane ? A321LR seems not to be sufficient for them rangewise from MUC and FRA


I don't think the A321LR makes sense for the LH group as for the routes requiring larger range such as destinations like HKG, Japan or SIN for instance are very high yielding and even for existing East Coast USA routes the A321LR likely would be too small.

HKG, Japan and SIN are far, far outside of the A321XLRs range.

I agree that the A321 does not make much sense for their TATL routes. However, there are many smaller markets in central Africa, the Middle East and central Asia that could be worth serving, or could work better with higher frequency and smaller aircraft.
 
Capricorn
Posts: 208
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:11 pm

Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:19 pm

LXA340 wrote:
columba wrote:
Different idea - Lufthansa will be the launch customer of the new middle of the market plane ? A321LR seems not to be sufficient for them rangewise from MUC and FRA


I don't think the A321LR makes sense for the LH group as for the routes requiring larger range such as destinations like HKG, Japan or SIN for instance are very high yielding and even for existing East Coast USA routes the A321LR likely would be too small. This type of aircraft will only be interesting for opening up new routes within the 7 to 8 hour range to secondary airports that would only be profitable with smaller equipment.

Concering the am to shift to smaller aircraft, I heard rumours that LX is considering to get rid of it's B77W's which are on average less than 4 years old as they are considered as to large for their needs post COVID. If this is true, there would be a possibility for LH to take these over as A346 replacement / swap for some B779's and instead LH group will order more Dreamliners and or A350's that would then go to LX eventually.


My guess is, that part of the reason is the looming air ticket tax, that is comparatively high. This is especially affecting leisure demand, the kind of traffic that is supposed to come back the fastest post C19. While the 77W was already on the larger side prior to C19, the post C19 world coupled with a relative high air ticket tax for O&D traffic might just make then not viable any longer.

Flying should become more expensive. After the Council of States, the National Council also spoke out in favor of a ticket tax on Wednesday. A fee of between CHF 30 and CHF 120 should be levied on tickets for commercial passenger flights, depending on the distance and class.


Source (In German): https://www.parlament.ch/de/services/ne ... sd109.aspx

While the air ticket tax is part of a larger legal framework overhaul and the possibility of a ballot referendum looms at large, the air ticket tax itself is relatively uncontroversial in Switzerland. (Nearly everyone around me would vote Yes on that matter alone, I am the only No)
 
VSMUT
Posts: 5497
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:50 pm

mxaxai wrote:
LXA340 wrote:
columba wrote:
Different idea - Lufthansa will be the launch customer of the new middle of the market plane ? A321LR seems not to be sufficient for them rangewise from MUC and FRA


I don't think the A321LR makes sense for the LH group as for the routes requiring larger range such as destinations like HKG, Japan or SIN for instance are very high yielding and even for existing East Coast USA routes the A321LR likely would be too small.

HKG, Japan and SIN are far, far outside of the A321XLRs range.

I agree that the A321 does not make much sense for their TATL routes. However, there are many smaller markets in central Africa, the Middle East and central Asia that could be worth serving, or could work better with higher frequency and smaller aircraft.


Indeed, Swiss has a couple of routes to East Africa, Brussels Airlines has a large network in other parts of Africa and Austrian has a number of ME destinations. Turkish has been eating market share to Africa from the European carriers, with its smaller 737s. The A321XLR could be the answer to that.

I'm thinking that TATL the A321XLR might actually make sense for the weaker parts of the group, Austrian and Brussels Airlines.
 
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Polot
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Sun Feb 28, 2021 2:11 pm

VSMUT wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
LXA340 wrote:

I don't think the A321LR makes sense for the LH group as for the routes requiring larger range such as destinations like HKG, Japan or SIN for instance are very high yielding and even for existing East Coast USA routes the A321LR likely would be too small.

HKG, Japan and SIN are far, far outside of the A321XLRs range.

I agree that the A321 does not make much sense for their TATL routes. However, there are many smaller markets in central Africa, the Middle East and central Asia that could be worth serving, or could work better with higher frequency and smaller aircraft.


Indeed, Swiss has a couple of routes to East Africa, Brussels Airlines has a large network in other parts of Africa and Austrian has a number of ME destinations. Turkish has been eating market share to Africa from the European carriers, with its smaller 737s. The A321XLR could be the answer to that.

How many destinations are there in Africa/ME that TK can easily fly to with 737s that LX/SN/OS etc can’t fly to with A320s and need a wide body or A321XLR?

I was under the impression cargo was a major reason why wide bodies are often used by European carriers to select African destinations.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:13 pm

Polot wrote:
How many destinations are there in Africa/ME that TK can easily fly to with 737s that LX/SN/OS etc can’t fly to with A320s and need a wide body or A321XLR?


Quite a few. The A321XLR has that additional range that will get it past sahara into the much more densely populated sub-sahara, comfortably capable of reaching East Africa and most of West Africa for example. On paper it should have the range to reach Johannesburg, but that's probably only achievable by sacrificing quite a bit of payload.

Several of the European airlines running routes to East Africa can't comfortably fill the aircraft, so run triangular routes. Swiss runs Dar-Es-Salaam and Nairobi on one flight. Brussel Airlines has quite a few multi-stop routes in Africa. Lufthansa has a small handful plus a number in the Middle East. It isn't just Lufthansa group, Air France and KLM have had to resort to doing the same. The A321XLR allows them to split up widebodies and run direct service and/or higher frequencies.

As an added bonus, the jet streams don't really affect north-south bound routes.

Polot wrote:
I was under the impression cargo was a major reason why wide bodies are often used by European carriers to select African destinations.


Surely that would apply to Turkish Airlines' 737s as well?
 
Opus99
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Mon Mar 01, 2021 9:08 am

If LH Group were to order the 78X which airlines would most likely make use of it?

Assuming the rumours are true that LH has genuine interest in it
 
mxaxai
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Mon Mar 01, 2021 9:18 am

Opus99 wrote:
If LH Group were to order the 78X which airlines would most likely make use of it?

Assuming the rumours are true that LH has genuine interest in it

LX, I assume, to replace the 77W. It is likely that some of the 787-9 on order end up at LX anyway, to replace the remaining A333 and A343.
 
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DABYT
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Mon Mar 01, 2021 9:41 am

Opus99 wrote:
If LH Group were to order the 78X which airlines would most likely make use of it?

Assuming the rumours are true that LH has genuine interest in it


What do you mean by “If they were to order?”. They already did.
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Mon Mar 01, 2021 10:02 am

VSMUT wrote:
...

Polot wrote:
I was under the impression cargo was a major reason why wide bodies are often used by European carriers to select African destinations.


Surely that would apply to Turkish Airlines' 737s as well?


It does. Turkish Airlines was threatened with suspension once, in Nigeria, for having insufficiently large planes:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1436775
 
Capricorn
Posts: 208
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:11 pm

Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Mon Mar 01, 2021 10:02 am

DABYT wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
If LH Group were to order the 78X which airlines would most likely make use of it?

Assuming the rumours are true that LH has genuine interest in it


What do you mean by “If they were to order?”. They already did.


I think the he means the 787-10 and AFAIK so far LHG has only 787-9 on order. The 787-10 I could see at mainly at LH itself and a small number at LX. For the other airlines of LHG IMO the 787-9 or potentially the 787-8 are more suitable.
 
Opus99
Posts: 3178
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Mon Mar 01, 2021 11:18 am

Capricorn wrote:
DABYT wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
If LH Group were to order the 78X which airlines would most likely make use of it?

Assuming the rumours are true that LH has genuine interest in it


What do you mean by “If they were to order?”. They already did.


I think the he means the 787-10 and AFAIK so far LHG has only 787-9 on order. The 787-10 I could see at mainly at LH itself and a small number at LX. For the other airlines of LHG IMO the 787-9 or potentially the 787-8 are more suitable.

Yes I mean the 787-10. Thanks.

Yeah that makes sense, to replace 330s? And 340s? Or has that already happened
 
VSMUT
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Mon Mar 01, 2021 11:49 am

Phosphorus wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
...

Polot wrote:
I was under the impression cargo was a major reason why wide bodies are often used by European carriers to select African destinations.


Surely that would apply to Turkish Airlines' 737s as well?


It does. Turkish Airlines was threatened with suspension once, in Nigeria, for having insufficiently large planes:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1436775


Because they routinely left baggage behind. Hardly relevant in this scenario. The A321XLR will have no such issues between Europe and Nigeria.

BTW, it was the same country that threw up a fuss because Delta sent 767s rather than its latest 777-200LR.
 
Opus99
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Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Mon Mar 01, 2021 12:07 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
...



Surely that would apply to Turkish Airlines' 737s as well?


It does. Turkish Airlines was threatened with suspension once, in Nigeria, for having insufficiently large planes:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1436775


Because they routinely left baggage behind. Hardly relevant in this scenario. The A321XLR will have no such issues between Europe and Nigeria.

BTW, it was the same country that threw up a fuss because Delta sent 767s rather than its latest 777-200LR.

Well they did change it to the 330. Was wondering why they did, to be fair, the jet it was the worst of the bunch out of all that was operating to Lagos. I think QRs 787s are the best (I grew up there so I visit frequently) but I degrees. The 321XLR can easily handle in terms of range. Maybe not cargo. A lot of traders use Turkish airlines to connect to different parts of the world. So I’m not sure really.
Emirates has double 77W rotation (pre Covid) which is the go to for traders
 
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Phosphorus
Posts: 1518
Joined: Tue May 16, 2017 11:38 am

Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Mon Mar 01, 2021 12:31 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
...



Surely that would apply to Turkish Airlines' 737s as well?


It does. Turkish Airlines was threatened with suspension once, in Nigeria, for having insufficiently large planes:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1436775


Because they routinely left baggage behind. Hardly relevant in this scenario. The A321XLR will have no such issues between Europe and Nigeria.

...

I'd venture to say any narrowbody operator would struggle, flying to Nigeria. A lot of luggage per pax, and pax are ready to pay for extra luggage -- but not ready to see the luggage not arriving -- to the point of actual riots at the airports. How do you think A321XLR would cope with 10 pieces of luggage per pax?
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