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marcogr12
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Mon Mar 08, 2021 1:16 pm

vfw614 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Pure trip costs are less than 10% different (most numbers point to around 5-8% more for the 787-9), but the 787-9 offers more extra capacity. So if you can fill both the cost per seat mile is better for the -9. The price is a matter of negotiation, but with the 787-8 being a bit "special" compared to the larger siblings, Boeing usually did not make a much better deal for the -8 in most tenders. (again it will always depend on the actual tender and Boeing will make you a splendid price for the -8 if the alternative is the A338)


I cannot remember any significant orders for the Boeing 787-8 in the past couple of years (there have only been 20 or so deliveries over the past four years, so orders must have dried up significantly even before 2017). I'd say it is pretty much a dead horse as far as a newly-built aircraft are concerned.


so far 375 787-8s have been sold, so it's not exactly dead horse
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vfw614
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Mon Mar 08, 2021 2:04 pm

Orders and deliveries have dried up. Pretty much nobody is ordering newly-built 787-8s anymore, that's what I said. I did not say nobody is using 787-8s anymore.

Which is hardly surprising given the superior economics of the 787-9. Unless they have better range than the larger sibling (which the 787-8 has not), there is hardly any room for smaller member of a widebody aircraft family once the larger variant becomes available (unless the OEM is willing to discount heavily). The A330-200 was pretty much done as soon the A330-300X showed up etc. etc.
 
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:19 am

777luver wrote:
Wonder how long the A343s have left in the group fleet?


My guess is that they will go away when the 789s are delivered. Passenger capacity-wise, the 789 is basically identical to that of the A333 and A343.
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:21 pm

vfw614 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Pure trip costs are less than 10% different (most numbers point to around 5-8% more for the 787-9), but the 787-9 offers more extra capacity. So if you can fill both the cost per seat mile is better for the -9. The price is a matter of negotiation, but with the 787-8 being a bit "special" compared to the larger siblings, Boeing usually did not make a much better deal for the -8 in most tenders. (again it will always depend on the actual tender and Boeing will make you a splendid price for the -8 if the alternative is the A338)

I cannot remember any significant orders for the Boeing 787-8 in the past couple of years (there have only been 20 or so deliveries over the past four years, so orders must have dried up significantly even before 2017). I'd say it is pretty much a dead horse as far as a newly-built aircraft are concerned.

The only interesting counter-point is the AA order for 22 788s ( ref: https://news.aa.com/news/news-details/2 ... fault.aspx ) in April 2018, along with 25 789. A339 lost out and at the same time AA dropped their long standing A350 order. Boeing used this opportunity to make the 788 and 789 aft fuselage common, which in theory at least makes it easier for Boeing to offer better pricing on 788. AA says they ordered 788 to replace 763 so apparently the delta in trip cost and/or acquisition cost mattered to them, otherwise they would have just taken more 789. This is just one data point and not an indication that LH or any other airline will follow their direction, yet it suggests that it is plausible that others might. FWIW these 788 orders are now being filled, we've seen pictures in the recent posts to the 787 production thread here on a.net. Either AA really thinks it needs the aircraft, or it was too late to defer them.
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Nicoeddf
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:38 pm

marcogr12 wrote:
vfw614 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Pure trip costs are less than 10% different (most numbers point to around 5-8% more for the 787-9), but the 787-9 offers more extra capacity. So if you can fill both the cost per seat mile is better for the -9. The price is a matter of negotiation, but with the 787-8 being a bit "special" compared to the larger siblings, Boeing usually did not make a much better deal for the -8 in most tenders. (again it will always depend on the actual tender and Boeing will make you a splendid price for the -8 if the alternative is the A338)


I cannot remember any significant orders for the Boeing 787-8 in the past couple of years (there have only been 20 or so deliveries over the past four years, so orders must have dried up significantly even before 2017). I'd say it is pretty much a dead horse as far as a newly-built aircraft are concerned.


so far 375 787-8s have been sold, so it's not exactly dead horse


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conaly
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Tue Mar 09, 2021 4:12 pm

a2b7 wrote:
If Edelweiss decides to remove the two A330-300s, I wonder what Lufthansa group does with them: could Lufthansa or Brussels Airlines use them, or are they put up for sale? One of them even has the 242t MTOW.


We got an answer: as aero.de reported, both WK A330-300 will be handed over to Eurowings Discover:
https://www.aero.de/news-38975/Edelweis ... urope.html

Swiss unions aren't too happy with that, as they fear the outsourcing of workforce from Switzerland to Germany with lower wages (kinda funny to read it like that, as German I am used news, that German companies try to outsource to Eastern Europe for the same reason).
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vfw614
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:58 pm

WK A330-300 will be handed over to Eurowings Discover


No, that is not what the article says.

It says that WK will end A330-300 operations (which has been know for some time) and adds that the A330--300s may end up with Eurowings Discover. This is pure speculation at this point, based on the fact that WK and EW both belong to Lufthansa and EW is expanding while WK is shrinking.
 
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Tue Mar 09, 2021 8:43 pm

Seems we don't have to think about LH buying back the 747-8i that it rejected earlier, it's been sold to an undisclosed entity for VVIP conversion.

Ref: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... n-pandemic
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DUSZRH
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Wed Mar 10, 2021 4:41 pm

vfw614 wrote:
WK A330-300 will be handed over to Eurowings Discover


No, that is not what the article says.

It says that WK will end A330-300 operations (which has been know for some time) and adds that the A330--300s may end up with Eurowings Discover. This is pure speculation at this point, based on the fact that WK and EW both belong to Lufthansa and EW is expanding while WK is shrinking.


Not completely "pure" speculation as there is a quote from the LX CEO stating that it may end up with 4Y.
 
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mercure1
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Thu Mar 18, 2021 9:19 pm

mercure f-wtcc
 
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mercure1
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:01 pm

Austrian Airlines is implementing further measures. Two additional Airbus aircraft will be relegated to long-term parking at least until 2024/25.

It is also vacating lease on four out of eight floors of its head office.

https://simpleflying.com/austrian-airli ... -forecast/
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A321Lufthansa
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Fri Mar 26, 2021 6:39 pm

mercure1 wrote:
Austrian Airlines is implementing further measures. Two additional Airbus aircraft will be relegated to long-term parking at least until 2024/25.

It is also vacating lease on four out of eight floors of its head office.

https://simpleflying.com/austrian-airli ... -forecast/

Pretty intriguing which Airbuses are meant hereunder...
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LAXintl
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Tue Mar 30, 2021 2:47 pm

Effective June 1, Edelweiss A330s (MSN 1193 & 1711) will be transferred to Eurowings Discover.

https://www.aerotelegraph.com/eurowings ... -beisammen
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A321Lufthansa
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:22 am

Will ex-OS A319s acquire registrations from D-AIBK and on after being transferred to CLH or they will start a new series?
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:46 pm

Another OS 763 has departed. OE-LAX ferried to the US.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 1#278abaab
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:42 am

Does anyone know the fate of Lufthansa 744 D-ABTK? I understand that LH needs to take all of their 744s out of ENS by June, but is today's (April 29) ferry to TEV still for storage or.....? I'd assume that Lufthansa is just switching storage locations, but their flight number (LH9872) is the one they used for retirements to MHV.....

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/d-abtk
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

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DABYT
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:10 am

VCVSpotter wrote:
Does anyone know the fate of Lufthansa 744 D-ABTK? I understand that LH needs to take all of their 744s out of ENS by June, but is today's (April 29) ferry to TEV still for storage or.....? I'd assume that Lufthansa is just switching storage locations, but their flight number (LH9872) is the one they used for retirements to MHV.....

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/d-abtk


The remaining 744 at ENS are allowed to stay there until June 2022. There’s a recent court decision overruling the authorities.
Source (German only): https://www.aero.de/news-39440/747-von-Lufthansa-duerfen-in-Twente-bleiben.html

As for D-ABTK I assume today’s flight from FRA to TEV is for storage....
 
mxaxai
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:51 pm

Due to a long-running wetlease agreement between LH and TUI, at least 2 Boeing 737-800 jets will serve EW routes operated by X3 during the upcoming summer holiday season. The lease was signed back in 2017 during the AB bankruptcy and LH has been unable to cancel the contract.

Additionally, Helvetic Airways (2L) is in discussions with LH / EW regarding the wetlease of some E-190.
https://www.airliners.de/eurowings-wetl ... cken/60277 [German]
 
marcogr12
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Thu Apr 29, 2021 7:17 pm

mxaxai wrote:
Due to a long-running wetlease agreement between LH and TUI, at least 2 Boeing 737-800 jets will serve EW routes operated by X3 during the upcoming summer holiday season. The lease was signed back in 2017 during the AB bankruptcy and LH has been unable to cancel the contract.

Additionally, Helvetic Airways (2L) is in discussions with LH / EW regarding the wetlease of some E-190.
https://www.airliners.de/eurowings-wetl ... cken/60277 [German]


Why are they looking to lease more a/c when they already have enough of their own sitting on the ground waiting?
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DUSZRH
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:54 pm

marcogr12 wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
Due to a long-running wetlease agreement between LH and TUI, at least 2 Boeing 737-800 jets will serve EW routes operated by X3 during the upcoming summer holiday season. The lease was signed back in 2017 during the AB bankruptcy and LH has been unable to cancel the contract.

Additionally, Helvetic Airways (2L) is in discussions with LH / EW regarding the wetlease of some E-190.
https://www.airliners.de/eurowings-wetl ... cken/60277 [German]


Why are they looking to lease more a/c when they already have enough of their own sitting on the ground waiting?


EW is planning to fly all its aircraft during the summer. Which is more than they flew in 2019, as they are taking in some of 4Us planes. As they are liquidating 4U and SXD, capacity is down quite a bit. And, rumour has it, that they're getting capacity which was chartered by LX (so kind of already paid for, like with the X3 flights).
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Thu May 06, 2021 2:51 pm

Swiss plans restructuring including employee and fleet cuts.

"short- and medium-haul fleet would be downsized from 69 to 59 aircraft through the withdrawal of Airbus A320-family equipment and a reduction in the wet-lease operations. On the long-haul front SWISS plans to reduce its fleet from 31 to 26 aircraft, by withdrawing five of its long-haul Airbuses."

https://swiss.newsmarket.com/english/pr ... 4e5d4e1a6e
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mercure1
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Thu May 06, 2021 3:11 pm

Bye bye A340. And Swiss just spent lots of money on them with the refurbishment project!
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777luver
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Thu May 06, 2021 4:05 pm

mercure1 wrote:
Bye bye A340. And Swiss just spent lots of money on them with the refurbishment project!


This hasn't been confirmed.........
 
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Thu May 06, 2021 7:30 pm

https://twitter.com/SpaethFlies/status/ ... 7958457349

Not sure if it's been brought up here yet, but here's further confirmation that the A380s aren't coming back. Strangely enough it was suggested that some A220s may have been sold, but the comments suggest that it may have been a slip of the tongue and what were actually retired were Q-series planes.
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Thu May 06, 2021 8:30 pm

filipinoavgeek wrote:
https://twitter.com/SpaethFlies/status/1389538937958457349

Not sure if it's been brought up here yet, but here's further confirmation that the A380s aren't coming back.

Snip:

#A380 won't return, 6 of 14 sold to @Airbus effective 2022/23

Seems the sell-back was announced in 2019:

Their spokesperson said that they were ‘big fans’ of the A380, and that both crews and customers loved the aircraft. However, they also said that, as part of their ongoing business plan, it is important to evaluate profitability in their network. This includes efficient sizing of aircraft in line with market conditions. With the A380, they said, ‘profitability is only possible on the most high-demand routes’.

Ref: https://simpleflying.com/lufthansa-sells-airbus-a380s/

It seems they were having problems finding profitable routes for them pre-covid so they were already reducing from 14 to 8, and now with covid and its after effects they won't be coming back at all.

Congrats to LH, it seems they cut a sharp deal with Airbus: I think EK for instance would be happy to sell back 43% of their A380s to Airbus over the next 2-3 years.
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UAEflyer
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Fri May 07, 2021 1:22 pm

Slightly off topic
At the moment 2 748i on the way to DXB in addition to the daily A333.
I don’t think DXB is a place for storage, as it is packed already with EK’s A380s
 
CRJockey
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Fri May 07, 2021 2:06 pm

UAEflyer wrote:
Slightly off topic
At the moment 2 748i on the way to DXB in addition to the daily A333.
I don’t think DXB is a place for storage, as it is packed already with EK’s A380s


DXB will be "tech" stopover for all India rotations to DEL, BOM, BLR for crew change due to the COVID case explosion in India. Crews will overnight in DXB and just fly the India legs as shuttle ex Dubai.
 
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FLALEFTY
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Fri May 07, 2021 6:26 pm

Here's an interesting article concerning LH Group, which also discusses their current fleet rationalization plans:

https://www.freightwaves.com/news/lufth ... cargo-jets

The salient points in the article are as follows:

1) Lufthansa Cargo next year will cover its fleet of Boeing 777 freighters with a high-tech coating (a wrap) that mimics the structure of a shark’s skin to reduce aerodynamic drag and fuel consumption. The new "sharkskin" wrap reduces drag by 0.8%, based on aerodynamic simulation analysis and test flight results when it was applied to the underside of a LH B744.

2) In early April, Lufthansa Cargo began regularly scheduled "carbon-neutral flights" between Frankfurt and Shanghai. The fuel is a mixture of biomass-derived fuel and Jet A. However, for technical and legal reasons operations using a 100% biomass-derived fuel are not feasible at this time.

3) "The 787-9 and A350-900 aircraft (previously on order and with the recent add-ons) will essentially replace the four-engine A340 long-haul aircraft as part of a planned fleet reduction. Plans call for reducing the number of four-engine aircraft in the Lufthansa Group long-haul fleet to less than 15% by the middle of this decade; before the crisis, the share was about 50%. The new, fuel-efficient aircraft will reduce operating costs by around 15% compared with the models they replace, Lufthansa said."

4) "The first (LH) 787s are scheduled to begin flying this winter, with the others to follow in the first half of 2022. The order brings the total number of firm orders for Boeing 787-9s and Boeing 777-9s to 45 aircraft."

5) "The five (newly-added) A350-900s will be delivered in 2027 and 2028. Lufthansa previously ordered 40 of the aircraft."

6) "This year, Lufthansa will take delivery of a new, fuel-efficient Airbus A320 (NEO) family aircraft for short- and medium-haul routes on average every month. Delivery of a further 107 Airbus A320 variants is planned until 2027."
 
upintheair2019
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Fri May 07, 2021 7:21 pm

Sources: LH to install First Class on 10 of its future A350-900s based in MUC. Deliveries will start in 2023.

https://www.aerotelegraph.com/lufthansa ... irbus-a350
 
mikedelta720
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Sun May 09, 2021 4:55 am

upintheair2019 wrote:
Sources: LH to install First Class on 10 of its future A350-900s based in MUC. Deliveries will start in 2023.

https://www.aerotelegraph.com/lufthansa ... irbus-a350


Aww, man. That means the chances of trying out their A380 and A340-600 are pretty much done for :(
 
777luver
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2021

Sun May 09, 2021 6:05 am

mikedelta720 wrote:
upintheair2019 wrote:
Sources: LH to install First Class on 10 of its future A350-900s based in MUC. Deliveries will start in 2023.

https://www.aerotelegraph.com/lufthansa ... irbus-a350


Aww, man. That means the chances of trying out their A380 and A340-600 are pretty much done for :(


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