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Lufthansa Cargo is keeping MD-11Fs through till Q2 2021. As per Planespotters, 13 of 17 340s are active, all are A340-300s. All A380s are parked

Personally, if the first quarter of 2021 remains like 2020, I think we could see 747-400 retirements earlier.

Boeing757100 wrote:

Lufthansa Cargo is keeping MD-11Fs through till Q2 2021. As per Planespotters, 13 of 17 340s are active, all are A340-300s. All A380s are parked

Personally, if the first quarter of 2021 remains like 2020, I think we could see 747-400 retirements earlier.

Piggybacking off the last post from the last thread, has there been any news regarding the long-term plan for the A340-300s? It seems like they'll stick around until there are sufficient A350s and 787s to replace them?

DeltaRules wrote:

Boeing757100 wrote:

Lufthansa Cargo is keeping MD-11Fs through till Q2 2021. As per Planespotters, 13 of 17 340s are active, all are A340-300s. All A380s are parked

Personally, if the first quarter of 2021 remains like 2020, I think we could see 747-400 retirements earlier.

Piggybacking off the last post from the last thread, has there been any news regarding the long-term plan for the A340-300s? It seems like they'll stick around until there are sufficient A350s and 787s to replace them?

It seems that way. There's been no announcements made maybe in Q4 or Q1 next year? Swiss is keeping theirs flying for this winter schedule

Boeing757100 wrote:

Lufthansa Cargo is keeping MD-11Fs through till Q2 2021. As per Planespotters, 13 of 17 340s are active, all are A340-300s.

Usually this website is more accurate and a better source concerning LH than planespotters....

https://sites.google.com/site/lhgroupfleet/lufthansa

Best Regards

The 3 OS 763s leaving are S/N 25273 which will exit by March and head to Arizona to be broken. S/N 26417 and 27095 to follow with their future disposition not decided.

viennafly wrote:

https://sites.google.com/site/lhgroupfleet/lufthansa

AIGM will fly to DUB to get painted today, after her AIFF will follow.

Fascinating that LH keep the A343's flying but park all A346's. You would have thought the 346's extra cargo capabilities would come in handy in these times.

TC957 wrote:

Fascinating that LH keep the A343's flying but park all A346's. You would have thought the 346's extra cargo capabilities would come in handy in these times.

not with the MX-contract for the 346 engines + lowerdeck lavatories.

The 343's are all paid for and can haul quite a decent amount around the globe.

TC957 wrote:

Fascinating that LH keep the A343's flying but park all A346's. You would have thought the 346's extra cargo capabilities would come in handy in these times.

If https://lufthansa-cargo.com/fleet-ulds/ ... elly-fleet is to be believed, the A343 can actually carry more LD3 (30 vs. 32). LH's A340-600 have the lower-deck lavatories which cut into the available cargo volume. Additionally, even though the A346 (or 744) might be able to carry more cargo per flight when no passenger bags are on board, the A343 is likely more efficient. So while the other aircraft could offer greater revenue, the A343 promises greater profit.

Lufthansa seems to try a new approach: leasing of airplanes! According to a report by aero.de, Lufthansa plans up to 25% of leased airplanes in the fleet (as far as I understood for the whole group, not only LH mainline). One Sale-and-lease-back-deal for an A350 has already been confirmed, apparently with Aercap, currently there are similar negotiations for a 777F. Both just to get some capital back to the airline, but this will be it. The 25% goal is supposed to be achieved only with new airplanes, that will replace older ones.

Sources:
https://www.aero.de/news-38051/Lufthans ... oehen.html (German)
https://www.manager-magazin.de/unterneh ... 0174480396 (German / paywall)

viennafly wrote:

viennafly wrote:

https://sites.google.com/site/lhgroupfleet/lufthansa

AIGM will fly to DUB to get painted today, after her AIFF will follow.

Looks good that the paints are going to be resumed. Will some narrowbodies follow then?

How quickly my post became outdated. According to airliners.de Lufthansa has already sold or put up as deposit five A350 and three A320-family aircraft, some of them as Sale-and-lease-back:

https://www.airliners.de/sale-lease-bac ... trag/58826 (German)

Seems like money was quickly needed, that they completely changed their course from owning all of their airplanes to the leasing contracts.

Is it safe to say the A340-300s are sticking around for awhile longer then? Thats what I wonder

conaly wrote:

How quickly my post became outdated. According to airliners.de Lufthansa has already sold or put up as deposit five A350 and three A320-family aircraft, some of them as Sale-and-lease-back:

https://www.airliners.de/sale-lease-bac ... trag/58826 (German)

Seems like money was quickly needed, that they completely changed their course from owning all of their airplanes to the leasing contracts.

In the currently very conservative commercial aircraft leasing market, the sale would have been at lessor's valuation less a %. Then the cash released will need to be applied against pre-existing finance, floating charges and fees.

Likely the deal includes the transfer of retrospective credits accrued (and still to accrue) on these aircraft.

At the end of the day, this is as much about the balance sheet, as generating cash.

777luver wrote:

Is it safe to say the A340-300s are sticking around for awhile longer then? Thats what I wonder

As long the aircraft is fully owned and paid for , no leasing or credit rates have to be paid and therefore the better choice IMO

Happy to see the 343 staying around for a while longer. They are still lovely birds - very comfortable. They have such an amazingly quiet cabin. They are a very relaxing aircraft to fly on, soooo much better than the 777.
Too bad the 346 are gone though...

oldannyboy wrote:

Happy to see the 343 staying around for a while longer. They are still lovely birds - very comfortable. They have such an amazingly quiet cabin. They are a very relaxing aircraft to fly on, soooo much better than the 777.
Too bad the 346 are gone though...

I agree, just had a journey on one of these A340-300, was quiet and calm. It does look a bit outdated but very fit for purpose.

Interesting flight to today: https://www.flightradar24.com/DLH9922/26a0b894

Lufthansa's Boeing 747-430 D-ABVR is currently flying FRA-LAX with flight nr. LH 9922. At Lufthansa, the 9,000 flight numbers always mean some kind of transfer, maintenance or "last flight". Only the destination makes me wonder: it is presumably VR's last flight, but does it still take passengers to LAX on the way to Mojave so that the flight "pays off" a little? What do you think?

Seems that the fate of LHs A340-600 is now definitely sealed and they will not return to service. Quote Spohr: “we took the A340-600 out and we don’t plan to bring them back into the air”

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/strategy/lufthansa-now-losing-1m-every-two-hours-rather-than-every-hour/142064.article

AirbusOnly wrote:

Interesting flight to today: https://www.flightradar24.com/DLH9922/26a0b894

Lufthansa's Boeing 747-430 D-ABVR is currently flying FRA-LAX with flight nr. LH 9922. At Lufthansa, the 9,000 flight numbers always mean some kind of transfer, maintenance or "last flight". Only the destination makes me wonder: it is presumably VR's last flight, but does it still take passengers to LAX on the way to Mojave so that the flight "pays off" a little? What do you think?

I’m sure it’s hauling cargo to LAX before heading to the scrapyards. Can’t imagine anything else tbh

OS 777 OE-LPD moved to Teruel for storage


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EspekD4XMAA ... name=large

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airc ... d#26a8e085

I hope the A343s stick around for a bit longer

Looks like an A359 (D-AIXA) is now on a repaint at TLS. It is a pretty short period (just 4 years), will other A359s in the old livery follow?

A321Lufthansa wrote:

Looks like an A359 (D-AIXA) is now on a repaint at TLS. It is a pretty short period (just 4 years), will other A359s in the old livery follow?

Yes, all of them. Apparently there was a quality issue and the repaint is on Airbus.

LAXintl wrote:

OS 777 OE-LPD moved to Teruel for storage


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EspekD4XMAA ... name=large

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airc ... d#26a8e085

Any insights that can be shared as to why OE-LPD with an age of 14 years of flying is scrapped ahead of it's much older sisters?
Source: https://sites.google.com/site/lhgroupfl ... rian/fleet

Thanks!

Who said it's getting scrapped ? It arrived a few days ago for storage.

Lufthansa Talking With Planemakers on Switch to Smaller Jets
Europe’s largest airline group is in negotiations with Airbus SE and Boeing Co. about existing [widebody] orders, with the manufacturers showing flexibility in the discussions, Chief Executive Officer Carsten Spohr said in a webinar Monday as part of the London School of Economics German Symposium.

He said he doubted whether demand for business travel in Europe and the U.S. will ever return to pre-pandemic levels.

The CEO also said the airline is in fleet talks with Embraer SA, whose regional planes are operated at Lufthansa, Austrian and Air Dolomiti ..

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... aller-jets

With only 20 777-9 on order, I wonder how many orders LH could convert to 787 before the fleet becomes too small to sustain. On the Airbus side, it seems unlikely that an A350 customer would swap to the A330neo (though I'm sure Airbus could offer some near-term slots).

Demand in summer 2021 is expected to be less than 60% of 2019, so there are likely no plans to reactivate the A380s this year. Full recovery is not expected until 2026 for 'mature markets like the EU or US'.

mxaxai wrote:

Lufthansa Talking With Planemakers on Switch to Smaller Jets
Europe’s largest airline group is in negotiations with Airbus SE and Boeing Co. about existing [widebody] orders, with the manufacturers showing flexibility in the discussions, Chief Executive Officer Carsten Spohr said in a webinar Monday as part of the London School of Economics German Symposium.

He said he doubted whether demand for business travel in Europe and the U.S. will ever return to pre-pandemic levels.

The CEO also said the airline is in fleet talks with Embraer SA, whose regional planes are operated at Lufthansa, Austrian and Air Dolomiti ..

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... aller-jets

With only 20 777-9 on order, I wonder how many orders LH could convert to 787 before the fleet becomes too small to sustain. On the Airbus side, it seems unlikely that an A350 customer would swap to the A330neo (though I'm sure Airbus could offer some near-term slots).

Demand in summer 2021 is expected to be less than 60% of 2019, so there are likely no plans to reactivate the A380s this year. Full recovery is not expected until 2026 for 'mature markets like the EU or US'.

The A380s (LH) will likely never fly again and end up being scrapped, given the anticipated traffic levels for 2021.

mxaxai wrote:

Lufthansa Talking With Planemakers on Switch to Smaller Jets
Europe’s largest airline group is in negotiations with Airbus SE and Boeing Co. about existing [widebody] orders, with the manufacturers showing flexibility in the discussions, Chief Executive Officer Carsten Spohr said in a webinar Monday as part of the London School of Economics German Symposium.

He said he doubted whether demand for business travel in Europe and the U.S. will ever return to pre-pandemic levels.

The CEO also said the airline is in fleet talks with Embraer SA, whose regional planes are operated at Lufthansa, Austrian and Air Dolomiti ..

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... aller-jets

With only 20 777-9 on order, I wonder how many orders LH could convert to 787 before the fleet becomes too small to sustain. On the Airbus side, it seems unlikely that an A350 customer would swap to the A330neo (though I'm sure Airbus could offer some near-term slots).

Demand in summer 2021 is expected to be less than 60% of 2019, so there are likely no plans to reactivate the A380s this year. Full recovery is not expected until 2026 for 'mature markets like the EU or US'.

The 787 would be a good fit at LH itself as well as all subsidiaries (OS, SN, some at LX with WK and Eurowings Discover or whatever the name is going to be). Group wise it could replace B767-300ER, B777-200ER, A330 and A343. That would give Boeing a strong foothold at LHG including all its subsidiaries and LHG in return would receive a plane that better matches its future strategy. I would see this as a win-win and both LHG and Boeing would profit.

Capricorn wrote:

mxaxai wrote:

Lufthansa Talking With Planemakers on Switch to Smaller Jets
Europe’s largest airline group is in negotiations with Airbus SE and Boeing Co. about existing [widebody] orders, with the manufacturers showing flexibility in the discussions, Chief Executive Officer Carsten Spohr said in a webinar Monday as part of the London School of Economics German Symposium.

He said he doubted whether demand for business travel in Europe and the U.S. will ever return to pre-pandemic levels.

The CEO also said the airline is in fleet talks with Embraer SA, whose regional planes are operated at Lufthansa, Austrian and Air Dolomiti ..

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... aller-jets

With only 20 777-9 on order, I wonder how many orders LH could convert to 787 before the fleet becomes too small to sustain. On the Airbus side, it seems unlikely that an A350 customer would swap to the A330neo (though I'm sure Airbus could offer some near-term slots).

Demand in summer 2021 is expected to be less than 60% of 2019, so there are likely no plans to reactivate the A380s this year. Full recovery is not expected until 2026 for 'mature markets like the EU or US'.

The 787 would be a good fit at LH itself as well as all subsidiaries (OS, SN, some at LX with WK and Eurowings Discover or whatever the name is going to be). Group wise it could replace B767-300ER, B777-200ER, A330 and A343. That would give Boeing a strong foothold at LHG including all its subsidiaries and LHG in return would receive a plane that better matches its future strategy. I would see this as a win-win and both LHG and Boeing would profit.[/quote

There is that...but because of the delays, there's no penalty for them to cancel the whole 779 order completely...

Scotron12 wrote:

Capricorn wrote:

mxaxai wrote:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... aller-jets

With only 20 777-9 on order, I wonder how many orders LH could convert to 787 before the fleet becomes too small to sustain. On the Airbus side, it seems unlikely that an A350 customer would swap to the A330neo (though I'm sure Airbus could offer some near-term slots).

Demand in summer 2021 is expected to be less than 60% of 2019, so there are likely no plans to reactivate the A380s this year. Full recovery is not expected until 2026 for 'mature markets like the EU or US'.

The 787 would be a good fit at LH itself as well as all subsidiaries (OS, SN, some at LX with WK and Eurowings Discover or whatever the name is going to be). Group wise it could replace B767-300ER, B777-200ER, A330 and A343. That would give Boeing a strong foothold at LHG including all its subsidiaries and LHG in return would receive a plane that better matches its future strategy. I would see this as a win-win and both LHG and Boeing would profit.[/quote

There is that...but because of the delays, there's no penalty for them to cancel the whole 779 order completely...

They absolutely can, so that's something to watch out for over the next few months. Personally, I think they'll hold at 20, the 14 options that they have may not hold but i mean. the article points out smaller long distance models? are they looking at an XLR? they have another 26 350s on order, are they looking to even go smaller than the 787s? because 350s and 787s are essentially the same size

mxaxai wrote:

With only 20 777-9 on order, I wonder how many orders LH could convert to 787 before the fleet becomes too small to sustain. On the Airbus side, it seems unlikely that an A350 customer would swap to the A330neo (though I'm sure Airbus could offer some near-term slots).

I'm a bit puzzled about this. If LH wants to swap 777s to 787s, how about the launch pricing they had on the 777X? And the engines? LG signed a contract with RR for the 787 engines, a small subfleet of 787s with GE is not impossible but not very cost efficient IMO. Only real possibility I see is swapping some 777X (5-6) to 777F (possibly not one a 1 to 1 basis, LH may have to accept a few more F's).

The A350 situation is even more limited in possibilities IMO. The A338 is not efficient, the A339 only slightly smaller and less efficient than the A359. Downsizing to A321XLRs poses another engine manufacturer issue, and LH already wanted to reduce their A32x neo order.

Really interested to see if something comes out of this.

Scotron12 wrote:

Capricorn wrote:

The 787 would be a good fit at LH itself as well as all subsidiaries (OS, SN, some at LX with WK and Eurowings Discover or whatever the name is going to be). Group wise it could replace B767-300ER, B777-200ER, A330 and A343. That would give Boeing a strong foothold at LHG including all its subsidiaries and LHG in return would receive a plane that better matches its future strategy. I would see this as a win-win and both LHG and Boeing would profit.[/quote

There is that...but because of the delays, there's no penalty for them to cancel the whole 779 order completely...

You are assuming LH has not signed up to the Max-style 779 contracts, which include not only traditional unit-based retrospective credits, but also time-based and front-end credits, which can only be used retrospectively.

frigatebird wrote:

I'm a bit puzzled about this. If LH wants to swap 777s to 787s, how about the launch pricing they had on the 777X? And the engines? LG signed a contract with RR for the 787 engines, a small subfleet of 787s with GE is not impossible but not very cost efficient IMO. Only real possibility I see is swapping some 777X (5-6) to 777F (possibly not one a 1 to 1 basis, LH may have to accept a few more F's).

The A350 situation is even more limited in possibilities IMO. The A338 is not efficient, the A339 only slightly smaller and less efficient than the A359. Downsizing to A321XLRs poses another engine manufacturer issue, and LH already wanted to reduce their A32x neo order.

Really interested to see if something comes out of this.

I agree. LH ordering the A338 would be odd, and there's little to gain by choosing the A339. I wouldn't rule out the A321XLR yet, though.

At Boeing, the most likely outcome is earlier delivery of their 787 order and further deferral of (parts of) their 777-9 order.

I understand it in the way that they’re looking at smaller aircraft. Not only long range. Basically, pre covid they were due to start negotiations on the CRJ/E19x/A319 replacements. So that’s the area, where they could increase orders (looking at E2 and 220s). While at the same time, they want to reduce larger planes. Also the remark they’re in talks with Embraer makes me geared towards that belief.

X‘s to 787s or F‘s. A350s to A220s?

mxaxai wrote:

Lufthansa Talking With Planemakers on Switch to Smaller Jets
Europe’s largest airline group is in negotiations with Airbus SE and Boeing Co. about existing [widebody] orders, with the manufacturers showing flexibility in the discussions, Chief Executive Officer Carsten Spohr said in a webinar Monday as part of the London School of Economics German Symposium.

He said he doubted whether demand for business travel in Europe and the U.S. will ever return to pre-pandemic levels.

The CEO also said the airline is in fleet talks with Embraer SA, whose regional planes are operated at Lufthansa, Austrian and Air Dolomiti ..

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... aller-jets

With only 20 777-9 on order, I wonder how many orders LH could convert to 787 before the fleet becomes too small to sustain. On the Airbus side, it seems unlikely that an A350 customer would swap to the A330neo (though I'm sure Airbus could offer some near-term slots).

Demand in summer 2021 is expected to be less than 60% of 2019, so there are likely no plans to reactivate the A380s this year. Full recovery is not expected until 2026 for 'mature markets like the EU or US'.

I can see them axe the 777-9 fleet in favour of the 787 or a mix 787/777F, but the A350 for the A330NEO? Seems like a bad move to me. You could need a plane like the A350 in your fleet structure, with the flexibility to move to the -1000.

Could they do a more group order and send some of the aircraft to Brussel SN or Swiss?

Well, LH was really interested in the 787-10 performance at UA. Like in every good relationship, UA was happy to help!
IMHO the 787-10 would suit the TATL routes perfectly, with an upgrade to A35K for longer trunk routes as long term 748 replacement. Many colleagues at LH really see no need for the 777X. There are also some union conflicts at LH Cargo because only 9 777F aircraft are replacing 14 MD-11s while some capacity is moved to Aerologic, which could result in an top of order for the 77F.
I would love to see LH with an mixed 78X/A35X WB fleet in the future. BTW, talks with Airbus have nothing to do with the A330neo. More like the A321XLR for Group airlines.

https://www.flightglobal.com/airlines/l ... 57.article

You guys. That article was taken completely out of context. This is what he ACTUALLY said:

He says the crisis has spurred Lufthansa Group to rethink its fleet structure, adding that the pandemic “allows us to modernise the fleet faster than we had expected”, given that the company would otherwise have had to maintain its previous fleet planning.

“We are in the process of negotiating with Airbus and Boeing on additional, smaller, more-efficient aircraft to be brought into the fleet, replacing some of the huge, big but older aircraft we are putting on the ground – [Boeing] 747s, Airbus A380s,” says Spohr, without elaborating on the potential number of aircraft or the types considered.

“So there is some modernisation which is accelerated by the fact that the fleet gets smaller. We wouldn’t have been able to afford that for the large fleet we were operating before, because we couldn’t have been able to afford to ground aircraft like the A380 or the 747, which are only 10-15 years old.”

I think LH is better off using the a350-1000 instead of the b777x.

LHA320 wrote:

Well, LH was really interested in the 787-10 performance at UA. Like in every good relationship, UA was happy to help!
IMHO the 787-10 would suit the TATL routes perfectly, with an upgrade to A35K for longer trunk routes as long term 748 replacement. Many colleagues at LH really see no need for the 777X. There are also some union conflicts at LH Cargo because only 9 777F aircraft are replacing 14 MD-11s while some capacity is moved to Aerologic, which could result in an top of order for the 77F.
I would love to see LH with an mixed 78X/A35X WB fleet in the future. BTW, talks with Airbus have nothing to do with the A330neo. More like the A321XLR for Group airlines.

Why is a top up order for the 777F a problem?
This doesn't really sound like the best aircraft for the job more just like let's just buy less boeing and more airbus.

Opus99 wrote:

LHA320 wrote:

Well, LH was really interested in the 787-10 performance at UA. Like in every good relationship, UA was happy to help!
IMHO the 787-10 would suit the TATL routes perfectly, with an upgrade to A35K for longer trunk routes as long term 748 replacement. Many colleagues at LH really see no need for the 777X. There are also some union conflicts at LH Cargo because only 9 777F aircraft are replacing 14 MD-11s while some capacity is moved to Aerologic, which could result in an top of order for the 77F.
I would love to see LH with an mixed 78X/A35X WB fleet in the future. BTW, talks with Airbus have nothing to do with the A330neo. More like the A321XLR for Group airlines.

Why is a top up order for the 777F a problem?
This doesn't really sound like the best aircraft for the job more just like let's just buy less boeing and more airbus.

What?
That's not what I said. I will not participate in any fanboy bashing. The union is unhappy that 16 aircraft are replaced with 9 aircraft and a top up order for 3 to 5 77F would make sense in the current market condition. So I said that the current conflict could boost an order for these frames, while thinking that the commitments for the 777X could be reduced due to that order. Not everything regarding Airbus is anti-Boeing, if you like it or not!

LHA320 wrote:

Opus99 wrote:

LHA320 wrote:

Well, LH was really interested in the 787-10 performance at UA. Like in every good relationship, UA was happy to help!
IMHO the 787-10 would suit the TATL routes perfectly, with an upgrade to A35K for longer trunk routes as long term 748 replacement. Many colleagues at LH really see no need for the 777X. There are also some union conflicts at LH Cargo because only 9 777F aircraft are replacing 14 MD-11s while some capacity is moved to Aerologic, which could result in an top of order for the 77F.
I would love to see LH with an mixed 78X/A35X WB fleet in the future. BTW, talks with Airbus have nothing to do with the A330neo. More like the A321XLR for Group airlines.

Why is a top up order for the 777F a problem?
This doesn't really sound like the best aircraft for the job more just like let's just buy less boeing and more airbus.

What?
That's not what I said. I will not participate in any fanboy bashing. The union is unhappy that 16 aircraft are replaced with 9 aircraft and a top up order for 3 to 5 77F would make sense in the current market condition. So I said that the current conflict could boost an order for these frames, while thinking that the commitments for the 777X could be reduced due to that order. Not everything regarding Airbus is anti-Boeing, if you like it or not!

It was how it was worded, sounded political to me, sounded as though a 777F top up was a bad thing

I have a reservation for a Frankfurt-Dubai (LH630) flight in December 2021. Lufthansa timetable says it will be a 744, but does anyone know what are the chances that that type is actually used?

21pilots wrote:

I have a reservation for a Frankfurt-Dubai (LH630) flight in December 2021. Lufthansa timetable says it will be a 744, but does anyone know what are the chances that that type is actually used?

A333, no chance for an 744

LHA320 wrote:

Well, LH was really interested in the 787-10 performance at UA. Like in every good relationship, UA was happy to help!
IMHO the 787-10 would suit the TATL routes perfectly, with an upgrade to A35K for longer trunk routes as long term 748 replacement. Many colleagues at LH really see no need for the 777X. There are also some union conflicts at LH Cargo because only 9 777F aircraft are replacing 14 MD-11s while some capacity is moved to Aerologic, which could result in an top of order for the 77F.
I would love to see LH with an mixed 78X/A35X WB fleet in the future. BTW, talks with Airbus have nothing to do with the A330neo. More like the A321XLR for Group airlines.

I think that the XLR would be a perfect add to LH, especially for the smaller hubs. I am still curious why LH seems not interested in the 787-8. With their plan to get a larger market share in leisure long haul routes, it seems like the ideal plane to me.

LX's subsidiary WK puts AFAIK 315 seats in it's A333 and 314 in it's A343 while, comparatively LX mainline puts 236 in the A333 and 223 in the A343. When taking a look at other airlines: TUI UK puts around 300 seats in the 787-8 while DY used to put 292 in it. So I guess LH, or rather Eurowings Discover, would probably put around 270-280 in a 787-8, a size that is ideal for the leisure market and would probably allow LH to offer some long haul flights out of DUS.

When taking a look a German media, it seems that Spohr does plan to set up LH for the future aviation market and not the pre C19 one. If LH indeed takes the assumption that leisure traffic will have a much larger percentage in its fleet than business / premium traffic, then I see the need for smaller planes. Maybe LH wants to become less premium heavy in the future.

Spohr, on the other hand, is already daring to look ahead to the coming years: In developed markets such as Europe and the USA it will probably take five years before the passenger level of the record year 2019 can be reached again with many more tourist customers.

Spohr also wants to use the crisis to make the state-supported Lufthansa Group more sustainable. The CEO announced that the fleet would shrink from around 800 to 650 aircraft.

Source (In German): https://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/un ... r-101.html

Opus99 wrote:

LHA320 wrote:

Opus99 wrote:

Why is a top up order for the 777F a problem?
This doesn't really sound like the best aircraft for the job more just like let's just buy less boeing and more airbus.

What?
That's not what I said. I will not participate in any fanboy bashing. The union is unhappy that 16 aircraft are replaced with 9 aircraft and a top up order for 3 to 5 77F would make sense in the current market condition. So I said that the current conflict could boost an order for these frames, while thinking that the commitments for the 777X could be reduced due to that order. Not everything regarding Airbus is anti-Boeing, if you like it or not!

It was how it was worded, sounded political to me, sounded as though a 777F top up was a bad thing

It is a bad thing. Not because of the aircraft. But because of market structure. There is a reason the fleet is reduced. And there is a reason that old blue chip airlines have none or rather limited main deck freighters. A tenth 77F I can see in the fleet. More growth than that will fly on 3S and the ever larger LH bellies.

I see LH repainted an A340 recently, DAIFF I think, the Star livery

777luver wrote:

I see LH repainted an A340 recently, DAIFF I think, the Star livery

Both D-AIGM and D-AIFF got repainted recently. Both wearing the new livery. D-AIFF used to have the Star livery

LHA320 wrote:

777luver wrote:

I see LH repainted an A340 recently, DAIFF I think, the Star livery

Both D-AIGM and D-AIFF got repainted recently. Both wearing the new livery. D-AIFF used to have the Star livery

Oh thanks for the clarification. Not sure if it means the fleet will be around for a while longer, not cheap to repaint