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Thenoflyzone
Posts: 3170
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2001 4:42 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Sun Jan 24, 2021 10:46 pm

behramjee wrote:
P2P demand in 2019 here was 42,000 pax!


The reason why I was amazed with the amount of O&D between YUL and DEL is that according to the 2016 census, the East Indian population of the CMA of Montreal was only 48,485, far below that of Calgary (90,620) or Edmonton (72,245). Even if we were to add Ottawa's numbers (28,940) and Quebec CIty's numbers (710, yes you read that right !) to that of Montreal, it is still far below the number of Alberta's 2 largest cities.

This tells me the O&D numbers out of YUL are driven just as much (if not more) by tourism than by VFR traffic.

Considering we are in a travel bubble context, and tourism between Canada and India is currently not allowed, I am surprised AC didn't launch YYC-DEL, ahead of YUL-DEL. After all, these flights under the travel bubble agreement - with certain exceptions- are mostly available to Indian nationals, and there are far more Indo-Canadians in Alberta than in Quebec.
 
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aerolimani
Posts: 1460
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:46 pm

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:22 am

Thenoflyzone wrote:
behramjee wrote:
P2P demand in 2019 here was 42,000 pax!


The reason why I was amazed with the amount of O&D between YUL and DEL is that according to the 2016 census, the East Indian population of the CMA of Montreal was only 48,485, far below that of Calgary (90,620) or Edmonton (72,245). Even if we were to add Ottawa's numbers (28,940) and Quebec CIty's numbers (710, yes you read that right !) to that of Montreal, it is still far below the number of Alberta's 2 largest cities.

This tells me the O&D numbers out of YUL are driven just as much (if not more) by tourism than by VFR traffic.

Considering we are in a travel bubble context, and tourism between Canada and India is currently not allowed, I am surprised AC didn't launch YYC-DEL, ahead of YUL-DEL. After all, these flights under the travel bubble agreement - with certain exceptions- are mostly available to Indian nationals, and there are far more Indo-Canadians in Alberta than in Quebec.

There doesn’t seem to be a whole lot of interest for AC to start a whole lot of routes out of routes out of YYC which rely on funnelling in connecting traffic. If a route isn’t more or less supported by the local YYC population, AC isn’t interested, and less so in COVID times, it seems.

In the past, I’ve found connecting trips to Amsterdam and Frankfurt, often connecting through YUL, cheaper than the direct from Calgary. From my observation, the YUL hub is favoured above all others.
 
flyyul
Posts: 4478
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:25 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:27 am

aerolimani wrote:
Thenoflyzone wrote:
behramjee wrote:
P2P demand in 2019 here was 42,000 pax!


The reason why I was amazed with the amount of O&D between YUL and DEL is that according to the 2016 census, the East Indian population of the CMA of Montreal was only 48,485, far below that of Calgary (90,620) or Edmonton (72,245). Even if we were to add Ottawa's numbers (28,940) and Quebec CIty's numbers (710, yes you read that right !) to that of Montreal, it is still far below the number of Alberta's 2 largest cities.

This tells me the O&D numbers out of YUL are driven just as much (if not more) by tourism than by VFR traffic.

Considering we are in a travel bubble context, and tourism between Canada and India is currently not allowed, I am surprised AC didn't launch YYC-DEL, ahead of YUL-DEL. After all, these flights under the travel bubble agreement - with certain exceptions- are mostly available to Indian nationals, and there are far more Indo-Canadians in Alberta than in Quebec.

There doesn’t seem to be a whole lot of interest for AC to start a whole lot of routes out of routes out of YYC which rely on funnelling in connecting traffic. If a route isn’t more or less supported by the local YYC population, AC isn’t interested, and less so in COVID times, it seems.

In the past, I’ve found connecting trips to Amsterdam and Frankfurt, often connecting through YUL, cheaper than the direct from Calgary. From my observation, the YUL hub is favoured above all others.


I wouldn’t say that. Air Canada’s long haul network is considerably larger in YYZ and just launched DOH from YYZ.
 
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aerolimani
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Mon Jan 25, 2021 3:02 am

flyyul wrote:
aerolimani wrote:
Thenoflyzone wrote:

The reason why I was amazed with the amount of O&D between YUL and DEL is that according to the 2016 census, the East Indian population of the CMA of Montreal was only 48,485, far below that of Calgary (90,620) or Edmonton (72,245). Even if we were to add Ottawa's numbers (28,940) and Quebec CIty's numbers (710, yes you read that right !) to that of Montreal, it is still far below the number of Alberta's 2 largest cities.

This tells me the O&D numbers out of YUL are driven just as much (if not more) by tourism than by VFR traffic.

Considering we are in a travel bubble context, and tourism between Canada and India is currently not allowed, I am surprised AC didn't launch YYC-DEL, ahead of YUL-DEL. After all, these flights under the travel bubble agreement - with certain exceptions- are mostly available to Indian nationals, and there are far more Indo-Canadians in Alberta than in Quebec.

There doesn’t seem to be a whole lot of interest for AC to start a whole lot of routes out of routes out of YYC which rely on funnelling in connecting traffic. If a route isn’t more or less supported by the local YYC population, AC isn’t interested, and less so in COVID times, it seems.

In the past, I’ve found connecting trips to Amsterdam and Frankfurt, often connecting through YUL, cheaper than the direct from Calgary. From my observation, the YUL hub is favoured above all others.


I wouldn’t say that. Air Canada’s long haul network is considerably larger in YYZ and just launched DOH from YYZ.

While there are more possibilities for long haul flights out of Toronto, when I have been searching flights out of YYC to Europe, frequently the cheapest options have been one or two stop itinerary involving YUL. More often than YYZ. This is what I mean by favouring YUL.

The original post I responded to asked why YUL would have long haul direct to India when Alberta has three times the population of Indian descent. In this context, for connecting traffic from the west, I feel that AC favours [connections via] Montréal.
 
yulexpansion
Posts: 124
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:08 pm

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Mon Jan 25, 2021 3:45 am

aerolimani wrote:
flyyul wrote:
aerolimani wrote:
There doesn’t seem to be a whole lot of interest for AC to start a whole lot of routes out of routes out of YYC which rely on funnelling in connecting traffic. If a route isn’t more or less supported by the local YYC population, AC isn’t interested, and less so in COVID times, it seems.

In the past, I’ve found connecting trips to Amsterdam and Frankfurt, often connecting through YUL, cheaper than the direct from Calgary. From my observation, the YUL hub is favoured above all others.


I wouldn’t say that. Air Canada’s long haul network is considerably larger in YYZ and just launched DOH from YYZ.

While there are more possibilities for long haul flights out of Toronto, when I have been searching flights out of YYC to Europe, frequently the cheapest options have been one or two stop itinerary involving YUL. More often than YYZ. This is what I mean by favouring YUL.

The original post I responded to asked why YUL would have long haul direct to India when Alberta has three times the population of Indian descent. In this context, for connecting traffic from the west, I feel that AC favours [connections via] Montréal.


It's pretty simple. Look at the amount of feed available to AC in YUL. It takes a network to keep a network and DEL serves that purpose.
 
Thomaas
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Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:52 pm

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Mon Jan 25, 2021 4:17 am

aerolimani wrote:
Thenoflyzone wrote:
behramjee wrote:
P2P demand in 2019 here was 42,000 pax!


The reason why I was amazed with the amount of O&D between YUL and DEL is that according to the 2016 census, the East Indian population of the CMA of Montreal was only 48,485, far below that of Calgary (90,620) or Edmonton (72,245). Even if we were to add Ottawa's numbers (28,940) and Quebec CIty's numbers (710, yes you read that right !) to that of Montreal, it is still far below the number of Alberta's 2 largest cities.

This tells me the O&D numbers out of YUL are driven just as much (if not more) by tourism than by VFR traffic.

Considering we are in a travel bubble context, and tourism between Canada and India is currently not allowed, I am surprised AC didn't launch YYC-DEL, ahead of YUL-DEL. After all, these flights under the travel bubble agreement - with certain exceptions- are mostly available to Indian nationals, and there are far more Indo-Canadians in Alberta than in Quebec.

There doesn’t seem to be a whole lot of interest for AC to start a whole lot of routes out of routes out of YYC which rely on funnelling in connecting traffic. If a route isn’t more or less supported by the local YYC population, AC isn’t interested, and less so in COVID times, it seems.

In the past, I’ve found connecting trips to Amsterdam and Frankfurt, often connecting through YUL, cheaper than the direct from Calgary. From my observation, the YUL hub is favoured above all others.

I'd assume that the sheer size of the YYZ O&D and the number of destinations served encourages AC to funnel Canadian traffic through YUL where the schedule is convenient, as they can keep the YYZ seats available for Toronto pax or for ones connecting from destinations not conveniently served by other hubs. You also have to consider that it is one of the most expensive airports to operate at, a big and shiny terminal comes at a cost (although it has a terrible layout given its function and traffic level)
 
YYZORD
Posts: 596
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Mon Jan 25, 2021 4:47 am

Could AC also add YUL-ZRH to compliment LX's ZRH-YUL flight? Then LX can add ZRH-YYZ in the future with a 773ER to compliment AC's YYZ-ZRH service. Only bringing this up as both have a JV together and could be good post pandemic.
 
Thenoflyzone
Posts: 3170
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2001 4:42 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Mon Jan 25, 2021 2:42 pm

AC has 3 main hubs, and a fleet that is spread out at those 3 main hubs. Revenues are down. A huge chunk of their fleet is currently parked. Pilots are furloughed. Matching capacity to demand network wide, juggling fleet/roster issues and making sure they save every penny they can while doing it, is key.

Clearly, several factors go into deciding what route is launched, not just O&D. Fairly certain AC would much rather go double daily on YYZ-DEL than launch YUL-DEL. After all, numbers don't lie (see below). Yet they still chose YUL. Clearly, it is beneficial for them to do so. The route might make sense today, but it doesn't mean it will stick around forever.

Yes, YYC-DEL is larger than YUL-DEL, but operating to DEL from Calgary might pose more operational issues for AC, considering everything I mentioned above. In the current economic context, leveraging your main hubs is a sound strategy, and that's YYZ/YVR/YUL. Same way WS has been strengthening YYC above all else lately.

O&D numbers from Canada to DEL

YYZ-DEL - 428,000 (2019) (largest market from DEL to North America)

YVR-DEL - 307,000 (2019)

YYC-DEL - 55,000 (2017-18)

YEG-DEL - 42,050 (2017-18, meaning most likely 2019 numbers are a bit higher)

YUL-DEL - 42,000 (2019)

Sources for O&D numbers:

https://www.anna.aero/2020/02/18/north- ... of-market/

https://www.anna.aero/2020/10/14/delhis ... s-in-2019/

https://www.anna.aero/2019/03/06/100-ro ... p-service/
 
flyyul
Posts: 4478
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:25 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Mon Jan 25, 2021 3:21 pm

Thenoflyzone wrote:
AC has 3 main hubs, and a fleet that is spread out at those 3 main hubs. Revenues are down. A huge chunk of their fleet is currently parked. Pilots are furloughed. Matching capacity to demand network wide, juggling fleet/roster issues and making sure they save every penny they can while doing it, is key.

Clearly, several factors go into deciding what route is launched, not just O&D. Fairly certain AC would much rather go double daily on YYZ-DEL than launch YUL-DEL. After all, numbers don't lie (see below). Yet they still chose YUL. Clearly, it is beneficial for them to do so. The route might make sense today, but it doesn't mean it will stick around forever.

Yes, YYC-DEL is larger than YUL-DEL, but operating to DEL from Calgary might pose more operational issues for AC, considering everything I mentioned above. In the current economic context, leveraging your main hubs is a sound strategy, and that's YYZ/YVR/YUL. Same way WS has been strengthening YYC above all else lately.

O&D numbers from Canada to DEL

YYZ-DEL - 428,000 (2019) (largest market from DEL to North America)

YVR-DEL - 307,000 (2019)

YYC-DEL - 55,000 (2017-18)

YEG-DEL - 42,050 (2017-18, meaning most likely 2019 numbers are a bit higher)

YUL-DEL - 42,000 (2019)

Sources for O&D numbers:

https://www.anna.aero/2020/02/18/north- ... of-market/

https://www.anna.aero/2020/10/14/delhis ... s-in-2019/

https://www.anna.aero/2019/03/06/100-ro ... p-service/



Important note. The Eastern Canada - DEL numbers in 2019 are heavily impacted by the Pakistan air space issues. YVR-DEL flew in S19 whereas YYZ did not. The Eastern Canada numbers were most resilient in Q4 2019 when the airspace opened.
 
ddp
Posts: 43
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:57 pm

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Mon Jan 25, 2021 5:33 pm

yulexpansion wrote:
aerolimani wrote:
flyyul wrote:

I wouldn’t say that. Air Canada’s long haul network is considerably larger in YYZ and just launched DOH from YYZ.

While there are more possibilities for long haul flights out of Toronto, when I have been searching flights out of YYC to Europe, frequently the cheapest options have been one or two stop itinerary involving YUL. More often than YYZ. This is what I mean by favouring YUL.

The original post I responded to asked why YUL would have long haul direct to India when Alberta has three times the population of Indian descent. In this context, for connecting traffic from the west, I feel that AC favours [connections via] Montréal.


It's pretty simple. Look at the amount of feed available to AC in YUL. It takes a network to keep a network and DEL serves that purpose.


I am going to assume AC is banking on a fair amount of connections to the USA from YUL on the Del flight post-pandemic.
 
crosscheckyyz
Posts: 76
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2020 1:50 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Tue Jan 26, 2021 12:22 am

aerolimani wrote:
While there are more possibilities for long haul flights out of Toronto, when I have been searching flights out of YYC to Europe, frequently the cheapest options have been one or two stop itinerary involving YUL. More often than YYZ. This is what I mean by favouring YUL.


You should take into account that some European/African destinations are offered only from YUL e.g. CMN, GVA, TLS, BOD just to name a few.
 
EdmFlyBoi
Posts: 85
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:58 pm

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Tue Jan 26, 2021 12:56 am

crosscheckyyz wrote:
aerolimani wrote:
While there are more possibilities for long haul flights out of Toronto, when I have been searching flights out of YYC to Europe, frequently the cheapest options have been one or two stop itinerary involving YUL. More often than YYZ. This is what I mean by favouring YUL.


You should take into account that some European/African destinations are offered only from YUL e.g. CMN, GVA, TLS, BOD just to name a few.


YUL is AC's hub to the Francophone world, hence the flights to France, Geneva, and French North Africa. It also supplies extra capacity on the Canada-Europe trunk routes to Frankfurt and Heathrow. AC has let its JV partners fly some of the routes to Europe (Vienna and Zurich) while keeping their own metal on similar routes out of YYZ. They have added more capacity to certain destinations (Tokyo, Shanghai, Beijing, Sao Paulo, Tel Aviv, Delhi) where a second flight from YYZ might be a challenge based on capacity restraints. They also tend to alternate certain routes to give them daily service (4x a week YYZ and 3x a week YUL or a similar combination). One could argue that YUL and YYZ act similar to Frankfurt and Munich for LH or what BA might ultimately use Dublin for in partnership with Are Lingus or Madrid in partnership with Iberia.

I must admit the YUL-CAI route is a bit of an odd one. They have added Dubai and Doha from YYZ - seems the like the partnership with Qatar is likely to grow and Qatar continues to offer Doha from YUL. Why they chose to fly CAI from YUL, rather than use their own metal on YYZ-CAI and let Egyptair take YUL, is unclear.
Last edited by EdmFlyBoi on Tue Jan 26, 2021 1:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Skywatcher
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Tue Jan 26, 2021 1:00 am

It's all about moving the most people at the highest fares and the lowest cost. There are no "favourites".
 
flyyul
Posts: 4478
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:25 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Tue Jan 26, 2021 1:49 am

EdmFlyBoi wrote:
crosscheckyyz wrote:
aerolimani wrote:
While there are more possibilities for long haul flights out of Toronto, when I have been searching flights out of YYC to Europe, frequently the cheapest options have been one or two stop itinerary involving YUL. More often than YYZ. This is what I mean by favouring YUL.


You should take into account that some European/African destinations are offered only from YUL e.g. CMN, GVA, TLS, BOD just to name a few.


YUL is AC's hub to the Francophone world, hence the flights to France, Geneva, and French North Africa. It also supplies extra capacity on the Canada-Europe trunk routes to Frankfurt and Heathrow. AC has let its JV partners fly some of the routes to Europe (Vienna and Zurich) while keeping their own metal on similar routes out of YYZ. They have added more capacity to certain destinations (Tokyo, Shanghai, Beijing, Sao Paulo, Tel Aviv, Delhi) where a second flight from YYZ might be a challenge based on capacity restraints. They also tend to alternate certain routes to give them daily service (4x a week YYZ and 3x a week YUL or a similar combination). One could argue that YUL and YYZ act similar to Frankfurt and Munich for LH or what BA might ultimately use Dublin for in partnership with Are Lingus or Madrid in partnership with Iberia.

I must admit the YUL-CAI route is a bit of an odd one. They have added Dubai and Doha from YYZ - seems the like the partnership with Qatar is likely to grow and Qatar continues to offer Doha from YUL. Why they chose to fly CAI from YUL, rather than use their own metal on YYZ-CAI and let Egyptair take YUL, is unclear.


Air Canada and Egyptair are not in an immunized joint venture. They can’t talk the exchange of routes, schedule coordination, pricing etc.

No doubt air Canada first choice would have been YYZ. Makes no sense competing with a state owned carrier like egpytair - especially in a depressed travel demand period.
 
Thenoflyzone
Posts: 3170
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2001 4:42 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Tue Jan 26, 2021 2:06 am

EdmFlyBoi wrote:

I must admit the YUL-CAI route is a bit of an odd one. They have added Dubai and Doha from YYZ - seems the like the partnership with Qatar is likely to grow and Qatar continues to offer Doha from YUL. Why they chose to fly CAI from YUL, rather than use their own metal on YYZ-CAI and let Egyptair take YUL, is unclear.


Exactly what flyyul said. This is in no way similar to the joint venture AC has with LH/LX/OS/SN.

It would be illegal for AC to walk over to MS and say "Hey, could you guys maybe move over to YUL, we'll start YYZ and we'll both split the revenue".
 
flyyyz
Posts: 1
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2021 3:40 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Tue Jan 26, 2021 3:54 am

Thenoflyzone wrote:
EdmFlyBoi wrote:

I must admit the YUL-CAI route is a bit of an odd one. They have added Dubai and Doha from YYZ - seems the like the partnership with Qatar is likely to grow and Qatar continues to offer Doha from YUL. Why they chose to fly CAI from YUL, rather than use their own metal on YYZ-CAI and let Egyptair take YUL, is unclear.


Exactly what flyyul said. This is in no way similar to the joint venture AC has with LH/LX/OS/SN.

It would be illegal for AC to walk over to MS and say "Hey, could you guys maybe move over to YUL, we'll start YYZ and we'll both split the revenue".

What about other routes such as YUL-NRT and YUL-PVG? Having spoken to those who work at both airports, they said most of the traffic are simply redirect from YYZ and much lower fares. Isn't that counterproductive? Offer a cheap fare to fill the YUL flights so customers won't go via YYZ and YVR. So it's the same customers in the end.
 
crosscheckyyz
Posts: 76
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2020 1:50 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Wed Jan 27, 2021 1:02 am

flyyyz wrote:
What about other routes such as YUL-NRT and YUL-PVG? Having spoken to those who work at both airports, they said most of the traffic are simply redirect from YYZ and much lower fares. Isn't that counterproductive? Offer a cheap fare to fill the YUL flights so customers won't go via YYZ and YVR. So it's the same customers in the end.


Well some may be the same customers sure. But you've also got cargo needs, which leads me to believe it may also add to why the flights exist. There is a reason why AC had widebody aircraft on YUL-YHZ in recent past.
 
Thomaas
Posts: 724
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:52 pm

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Wed Jan 27, 2021 1:37 am

flyyyz wrote:
Thenoflyzone wrote:
EdmFlyBoi wrote:

I must admit the YUL-CAI route is a bit of an odd one. They have added Dubai and Doha from YYZ - seems the like the partnership with Qatar is likely to grow and Qatar continues to offer Doha from YUL. Why they chose to fly CAI from YUL, rather than use their own metal on YYZ-CAI and let Egyptair take YUL, is unclear.


Exactly what flyyul said. This is in no way similar to the joint venture AC has with LH/LX/OS/SN.

It would be illegal for AC to walk over to MS and say "Hey, could you guys maybe move over to YUL, we'll start YYZ and we'll both split the revenue".

What about other routes such as YUL-NRT and YUL-PVG? Having spoken to those who work at both airports, they said most of the traffic are simply redirect from YYZ and much lower fares. Isn't that counterproductive? Offer a cheap fare to fill the YUL flights so customers won't go via YYZ and YVR. So it's the same customers in the end.

Well YUL is likely the cheapest of the 3 hubs to operate out of, so you might as well push your low-yielding connections to that airport and keep YYZ/YVR for local traffic or for connections that can't be served through the other hub. As far as YUL-NRT/PVG, it likely makes more sense to add a new destination than to go double daily on an existing pair, as you'll stimulate the O&D market and enjoy the higher fares the direct flight provides. AC already enjoys that on its existing services from YVR and YYZ. Ultimately it seems that AC is quite pleased with offering dual YYZ/YUL services, as evidenced by the addition of YUL-PVG/GRU/BOG/LIM/OTP
 
jashah
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 1:36 pm

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Wed Jan 27, 2021 4:56 am

Does anyone know what the plan with AC Rouge is? I find it frustrating that a a lot of the routes I usually take out of YYJ where I live and elsewhere force me to fly on Rouge. Stopping in YVR can give me more options but this is inconvenient. It’s especially frustrating that Rouge J class is usually as expensive as true AC J class but not the same quality.
 
777luver
Posts: 606
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:44 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Wed Jan 27, 2021 7:10 am

jashah wrote:
Does anyone know what the plan with AC Rouge is? I find it frustrating that a a lot of the routes I usually take out of YYJ where I live and elsewhere force me to fly on Rouge. Stopping in YVR can give me more options but this is inconvenient. It’s especially frustrating that Rouge J class is usually as expensive as true AC J class but not the same quality.


Narrowbody leisure flying for now I believe
 
yyztpa2
Posts: 238
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:30 pm

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:45 pm

I scanned this chat and didn't see this already posted.
CNN Business Traveller had this segment on Air Canada and how they are handling COVID-19
https://www.cnn.com/videos/tv/2021/01/2 ... -2-spc.cnn
 
Airlinerdude
Posts: 268
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:07 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Wed Jan 27, 2021 11:30 pm

Freeland hints at potential hotel quarantines for returning travellers:

OTTAWA -- Deputy Prime Minister Chrystia Freeland says the federal government is "looking seriously" at tougher travel measures to fight the COVID-19 pandemic, including mandatory hotel quarantines for air travellers returning from non-essential trips abroad.

Freeland's remarks build on Prime Minister Justin Trudeau's leaving the door open earlier this month to tighter restrictions, sparking questions about how a stricter isolation regime would roll out relative to other countries.

Federal data suggests only a small fraction of COVID-19 cases are linked to travel, but there is still virtually no testing at the border and many recent cases do not have an identified source.


https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavir ... -1.5281295

If they're looking to kill the little bit of revenue that Canadian airlines are generating from international, they're doing a great job. I suspect that this is being announced ahead of Spring Break to keep Canadians at home. I personally do not agree with this staunch approach against eliminating all international travel.
 
777luver
Posts: 606
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:44 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Thu Jan 28, 2021 1:54 am

Airlinerdude wrote:
Freeland hints at potential hotel quarantines for returning travellers:

OTTAWA -- Deputy Prime Minister Chrystia Freeland says the federal government is "looking seriously" at tougher travel measures to fight the COVID-19 pandemic, including mandatory hotel quarantines for air travellers returning from non-essential trips abroad.

Freeland's remarks build on Prime Minister Justin Trudeau's leaving the door open earlier this month to tighter restrictions, sparking questions about how a stricter isolation regime would roll out relative to other countries.

Federal data suggests only a small fraction of COVID-19 cases are linked to travel, but there is still virtually no testing at the border and many recent cases do not have an identified source.


https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavir ... -1.5281295

If they're looking to kill the little bit of revenue that Canadian airlines are generating from international, they're doing a great job. I suspect that this is being announced ahead of Spring Break to keep Canadians at home. I personally do not agree with this staunch approach against eliminating all international travel.


They don't want anyone travelling without actually forcing people to stay home so they've made it as hard as possible to travel. Next stop: complete ban on all intl travel. All the while vouching/promising for refunds to look like heroes claiming that CEWS helped airlines (LOL) and killing off what little offset revenue is coming in. More pain is coming and they do not give a flying you know what. This govt's failure to help the airline industry will be remembered for decades to come, doesn't help that the media is on a witch hunt against anything and anyone travelling; making the public think that travel is the root cause and is inherently dangerous. My fear is it will take for airlines to declare bankruptcy for them to step in and by then it will be too late, permanent damage will and has been done. This govt is completely inept and pathetic. One of the few that still hasn't helped its airlines claiming help is on the way not once but 5 times since this pandemic has started.
 
runway23
Posts: 2427
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:12 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Thu Jan 28, 2021 5:11 am

777luver wrote:
Airlinerdude wrote:
Freeland hints at potential hotel quarantines for returning travellers:

OTTAWA -- Deputy Prime Minister Chrystia Freeland says the federal government is "looking seriously" at tougher travel measures to fight the COVID-19 pandemic, including mandatory hotel quarantines for air travellers returning from non-essential trips abroad.

Freeland's remarks build on Prime Minister Justin Trudeau's leaving the door open earlier this month to tighter restrictions, sparking questions about how a stricter isolation regime would roll out relative to other countries.

Federal data suggests only a small fraction of COVID-19 cases are linked to travel, but there is still virtually no testing at the border and many recent cases do not have an identified source.


https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavir ... -1.5281295

If they're looking to kill the little bit of revenue that Canadian airlines are generating from international, they're doing a great job. I suspect that this is being announced ahead of Spring Break to keep Canadians at home. I personally do not agree with this staunch approach against eliminating all international travel.


They don't want anyone travelling without actually forcing people to stay home so they've made it as hard as possible to travel. Next stop: complete ban on all intl travel. All the while vouching/promising for refunds to look like heroes claiming that CEWS helped airlines (LOL) and killing off what little offset revenue is coming in. More pain is coming and they do not give a flying you know what. This govt's failure to help the airline industry will be remembered for decades to come, doesn't help that the media is on a witch hunt against anything and anyone travelling; making the public think that travel is the root cause and is inherently dangerous. My fear is it will take for airlines to declare bankruptcy for them to step in and by then it will be too late, permanent damage will and has been done. This govt is completely inept and pathetic. One of the few that still hasn't helped its airlines claiming help is on the way not once but 5 times since this pandemic has started.


An overwhelming number of Canadians are in favour of limiting international travel. I think Trudeau is just going there where the wind is blowing him.

Personally I’m a little shocked when I hear Trudeau saying every case is important and a case too many yet no media outlet talks about the impact of essential workers. How many truckers, pilots, flight attendants, etc. Arrive daily into Canada without any need for a PCR test or quarantine. I’d venture that they are probably importing a lot more cases than any inbound air travelers.

I understand the need to limit the possibility of new variants but the cynic in me sees the whole thing as the excuse some governments were waiting for to close their borders. After all, it’s a lot easier to say you reacted promptly to new variants than to admit it took you two months in 2020 to close your border - at which point it was just too late and the damage was done.
 
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cirrusdragoon
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Thu Jan 28, 2021 7:40 am

https://toronto.citynews.ca/video/2021/ ... -approved/

A new report ordered by Transport Canada purports that Air Canada ticket prices would increase if the company acquires Air Transat. Also Echoed by the notorious Gabor Lucas. In my opinion, there are other factors to weigh here, not just ticket prices. Yes that is important, but this deal is essential to help Canada's aviation sector better compete against other foreign entities trying to absorb Canadian international market share. What are your thoughts?
 
A330Inter
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Thu Jan 28, 2021 8:47 am

I don't see the issue with fare increases on Air Canada as a result of the TS acquisition.
Canada has quite a few other airlines, Westjet, Swoop, not to mention the other ones, that position themselves differently than Air Canada and can continue to offer cheaper ticket prices to the destination previously flown by TS, if the demand is there of course.
 
777luver
Posts: 606
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Thu Jan 28, 2021 10:17 am

cirrusdragoon wrote:
https://toronto.citynews.ca/video/2021/01/27/report-air-canada-prices-to-increase-if-air-transat-deal-is-approved/

A new report ordered by Transport Canada purports that Air Canada ticket prices would increase if the company acquires Air Transat. Also Echoed by the notorious Gabor Lucas. In my opinion, there are other factors to weigh here, not just ticket prices. Yes that is important, but this deal is essential to help Canada's aviation sector better compete against other foreign entities trying to absorb Canadian international market share. What are your thoughts?


I disagree with that statement. And I agree with your thinking, I doubt ticket prices increasing is a good lone reason to stop a merger, they would have to come up with other compelling reasons and demand concessions. I highly dislike when the media throws Gabor Lukas' name behind every article, just because he's an "advocate" doesn't mean his words mean anything. He's simply against against airlines. That's the media for you, makes no sense.
 
yyztpa2
Posts: 238
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:33 pm

777luver wrote:
cirrusdragoon wrote:
https://toronto.citynews.ca/video/2021/01/27/report-air-canada-prices-to-increase-if-air-transat-deal-is-approved/

A new report ordered by Transport Canada purports that Air Canada ticket prices would increase if the company acquires Air Transat. Also Echoed by the notorious Gabor Lucas. In my opinion, there are other factors to weigh here, not just ticket prices. Yes that is important, but this deal is essential to help Canada's aviation sector better compete against other foreign entities trying to absorb Canadian international market share. What are your thoughts?


I disagree with that statement. And I agree with your thinking, I doubt ticket prices increasing is a good lone reason to stop a merger, they would have to come up with other compelling reasons and demand concessions. I highly dislike when the media throws Gabor Lukas' name behind every article, just because he's an "advocate" doesn't mean his words mean anything. He's simply against against airlines. That's the media for you, makes no sense.


We're already seein Flair make moves with new Max 8 aircraft this year to step into what they see as opportunity coming out of the pandemic.
 
foxalphazulu
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Jan 29, 2021 4:52 pm

Canada to now ask all travellers to quarantine. Flights to sun destinations suspended till April

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudea ... -1.5892992
 
runway23
Posts: 2427
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:12 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Jan 29, 2021 5:31 pm

foxalphazulu wrote:
Canada to now ask all travellers to quarantine. Flights to sun destinations suspended till April

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudea ... -1.5892992


There’s a quarantine for all travelers since Mid-March. What is new is the obligation to do the first 3 days in a hotel at a minimum cost of $2000. Doubt anyone will travel internationally in such conditions.
 
Skywatcher
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Jan 29, 2021 6:39 pm

Picking on international air travelers (oh those non caring, selfish beachgoers!) is way easier than taking a hit for a grossly inadequate vaccine roll-out for our Federal government. Distraction 101.
 
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cirrusdragoon
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Jan 29, 2021 11:33 pm

Skywatcher wrote:
Picking on international air travelers (oh those non caring, selfish beachgoers!) is way easier than taking a hit for a grossly inadequate vaccine roll-out for our Federal government. Distraction 101.


Sorry no that is baseless misinformation, I disagree with that statement.

First i take issue with the statement that it is the governments fault for vaccine shortages.

Makers of COVID-19 vaccines need everything to go right as they scale up production to hundreds of millions of doses -- and any little hiccup could cause a delay. Some of their ingredients have never before been produced at the sheer volume needed. This takes time.

And seemingly simple suggestions that other factories switch to brewing new kinds of vaccines can't happen overnight.

The multiple types of COVID-19 vaccines being used in different countries all train the body to recognize the new coronavirus, mostly the spike protein that coats it. But they require different technologies, raw materials, equipment and expertise to do so.
The two vaccines authorized so far, from Pfizer and Moderna, are made by putting a piece of genetic code called mRNA -- the instructions for that spike protein -- inside a little ball of fat.
Making small amounts of mRNA in a research lab is easy but prior to this, nobody made a billion doses or 100 million or even a million doses of mRNA.

the world also simultaneously has to keep up production of vaccines against polio, measles, meningitis and other diseases that still threaten even in the midst of the pandemic.

So unless every household across the world had their own private lab to produce vaccines for each other, we and governments have to wait . Everyone has to wait. Its no ones fault vaccines cannot be manufactured fast enough to vaccinate more people.


Second,

Travel restrictions have clear benefits when there are zero or few cases in the destination country. For instance, restrictions on travellers from Wuhan, or China more generally, in early 2020 might have contributed to slowing the global spread of covid-19. However, once case numbers within a country are sufficiently large that local outbreaks have been established and are self-sustaining, travel restrictions become less effective. For instance, the ban on European travellers to the USA on March 12, 2020, was too late to prevent a large epidemic in New York already seeded mainly by European travellers.

Countries with established epidemics attempting to reduce COVID-19 incidence through stringent physical distancing measures such as lockdowns might impose travel restrictions to accelerate the reduction of new cases.

However, this would only be effective if the number of cases being imported from international travellers contributes substantially to overall incidence.

Hence, decisions around travel restrictions are complex; they need to take into account local transmission, COVID-19 prevalence in source countries of travellers, and the volume of travel from those countries.
cite: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanp ... 68-2667(20)30263-2/fulltext
 
krisyyz
Posts: 1316
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:47 am

Is there a possibility the AC withdraws the B77L from the fleet? I believe it is the only type that is completely grounded. I know AC owns most of the fleet, and there is little to no demand for the type in the market. The 789 can do most of the 77L flights albeit with far less cargo. While It’s a beast and gives AC ULH capabilities with full payload, in a post-COVID market, is it a smart business decision to keep the 77Ls in the fleet?

KrisYYZ
 
foxalphazulu
Posts: 24
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 6:07 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:21 am

[threeid][/threeid]
krisyyz wrote:
Is there a possibility the AC withdraws the B77L from the fleet? I believe it is the only type that is completely grounded. I know AC owns most of the fleet, and there is little to no demand for the type in the market. The 789 can do most of the 77L flights albeit with far less cargo. While It’s a beast and gives AC ULH capabilities with full payload, in a post-COVID market, is it a smart business decision to keep the 77Ls in the fleet?

KrisYYZ


Precisely for Cargo purposes I think AC will hang on to the 777 for ULH routes that command cargo volumes. Australia and Hong Kong come to mind along with some points in China.
 
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aerolimani
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:27 pm

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/air-ca ... -1.5900639

Air Canada puts all Rouge flights on hiatus. About 80 people will be laid off temporarily as a result of move.
 
Thomaas
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Thu Feb 04, 2021 8:48 pm

aerolimani wrote:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/air-canada-rouge-1.5900639

Air Canada puts all Rouge flights on hiatus. About 80 people will be laid off temporarily as a result of move.


I do wonder if we'll see Rouge start back up post-pandemic. When they had 60+ planes with densified cabins, the economies of scale made sense, not so much with less than 20. With seat pitch on Rouge planes within an inch of AC's new narrowbodies, it makes little sense to keep the product on the market. I'll go even further and say that AC's A220s and 737MAXs are cheaper to operate on a per-seat basis than their "low-cost" subsidiary, especially since the last round of pilot contract negotiations and the new crew rest rules that came into effect.
 
9252fly
Posts: 1222
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Thu Feb 04, 2021 9:35 pm

Thomaas wrote:
aerolimani wrote:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/air-canada-rouge-1.5900639

Air Canada puts all Rouge flights on hiatus. About 80 people will be laid off temporarily as a result of move.


I do wonder if we'll see Rouge start back up post-pandemic. When they had 60+ planes with densified cabins, the economies of scale made sense, not so much with less than 20. With seat pitch on Rouge planes within an inch of AC's new narrowbodies, it makes little sense to keep the product on the market. I'll go even further and say that AC's A220s and 737MAXs are cheaper to operate on a per-seat basis than their "low-cost" subsidiary, especially since the last round of pilot contract negotiations and the new crew rest rules that came into effect.


It would not surprise me if Rouge is put on the back-burner post-pandemic considering the spool-up to 2019 levels will be a long. With the A220s and B78Ms building up to critical mass, I foresee a significant removal of A319s and A320s in the near future with the focus on the aforementioned aircraft. The A321s look like they have a future in AC long term plans. What will be worth watching in the next few weeks is the outcome of AT acquisition subject to EU and Canada government approvals, there's also a possibility of AC walking away without penalty later this month.
 
777luver
Posts: 606
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Thu Feb 04, 2021 9:47 pm

9252fly wrote:
Thomaas wrote:
aerolimani wrote:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/air-canada-rouge-1.5900639

Air Canada puts all Rouge flights on hiatus. About 80 people will be laid off temporarily as a result of move.


I do wonder if we'll see Rouge start back up post-pandemic. When they had 60+ planes with densified cabins, the economies of scale made sense, not so much with less than 20. With seat pitch on Rouge planes within an inch of AC's new narrowbodies, it makes little sense to keep the product on the market. I'll go even further and say that AC's A220s and 737MAXs are cheaper to operate on a per-seat basis than their "low-cost" subsidiary, especially since the last round of pilot contract negotiations and the new crew rest rules that came into effect.


It would not surprise me if Rouge is put on the back-burner post-pandemic considering the spool-up to 2019 levels will be a long. With the A220s and B78Ms building up to critical mass, I foresee a significant removal of A319s and A320s in the near future with the focus on the aforementioned aircraft. The A321s look like they have a future in AC long term plans. What will be worth watching in the next few weeks is the outcome of AT acquisition subject to EU and Canada government approvals, there's also a possibility of AC walking away without penalty later this month.


AC has repeatedly said the Rouge still has a key role in the network post covid with leisure VFR traffic. Keeping Rouge strictly narrowbody doing Mexico, US sun, and Caribbean flights. Mainline A319s and A320s are already headed out the door and at a fast pace. There are a handful of A319s left. Plan for Rouge could change who knows
 
Whiteguy
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:00 pm

9252fly wrote:
Thomaas wrote:
aerolimani wrote:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/air-canada-rouge-1.5900639

Air Canada puts all Rouge flights on hiatus. About 80 people will be laid off temporarily as a result of move.


I do wonder if we'll see Rouge start back up post-pandemic. When they had 60+ planes with densified cabins, the economies of scale made sense, not so much with less than 20. With seat pitch on Rouge planes within an inch of AC's new narrowbodies, it makes little sense to keep the product on the market. I'll go even further and say that AC's A220s and 737MAXs are cheaper to operate on a per-seat basis than their "low-cost" subsidiary, especially since the last round of pilot contract negotiations and the new crew rest rules that came into effect.


It would not surprise me if Rouge is put on the back-burner post-pandemic considering the spool-up to 2019 levels will be a long. With the A220s and B78Ms building up to critical mass, I foresee a significant removal of A319s and A320s in the near future with the focus on the aforementioned aircraft. The A321s look like they have a future in AC long term plans. What will be worth watching in the next few weeks is the outcome of AT acquisition subject to EU and Canada government approvals, there's also a possibility of AC walking away without penalty later this month.


Most A319/320s are gone already, I think 2-3 319s left and they’re mostly Jetz. Maybe half dozen A320 lefts as well. I honestly would be surprised to see Rouge come back if the TS deal goes through.
 
777luver
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Feb 05, 2021 4:40 am

 
777luver
Posts: 606
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Feb 05, 2021 4:41 am

AC and the govt are going head to head

https://canadianaviationnews.wordpress. ... tive-says/
 
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CrewBunk
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Feb 05, 2021 4:28 pm

777luver wrote:
AC and the govt are going head to head

I’ve always thought that both Air Canada and Westjet should shut down for a week. If anything, to show the morons in Ottawa just how essential airlines are. Then .... when back flying, don’t fly to Ottawa at all. Let the federal MPs ride Via Rail and Greyhound!

It’s not a fluke that almost every developed nation on the earth, with forward thinking governments, are fully supporting their airlines.
 
777luver
Posts: 606
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Feb 05, 2021 4:52 pm

CrewBunk wrote:
777luver wrote:
AC and the govt are going head to head

I’ve always thought that both Air Canada and Westjet should shut down for a week. If anything, to show the morons in Ottawa just how essential airlines are. Then .... when back flying, don’t fly to Ottawa at all. Let the federal MPs ride Via Rail and Greyhound!

It’s not a fluke that almost every developed nation on the earth, with forward thinking governments, are fully supporting their airlines.


I Completely agree. They simply do not care, how pathetic do they have to be to not realize "wait if we give them help they'll be able to refund" instead of "refunds first and dip into your survival bank account then we will talk aid" this govt does not understand nor care about the industry. We must not be essential cause that's how they have treated the airlines, even after canceling sun destinations I don't believe a word Trudeau says about how all of a sudden airlines are amazing blah blah
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 2404
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Feb 05, 2021 6:45 pm

CrewBunk wrote:
777luver wrote:
AC and the govt are going head to head

I’ve always thought that both Air Canada and Westjet should shut down for a week. If anything, to show the morons in Ottawa just how essential airlines are. Then .... when back flying, don’t fly to Ottawa at all. Let the federal MPs ride Via Rail and Greyhound!

It’s not a fluke that almost every developed nation on the earth, with forward thinking governments, are fully supporting their airlines.


I understand the frustration, but should point out that AC, WS, PD, TS, Flair (whoever) shutting down service for a day, week, month, year to make a point would be counterproductive for two reasons:

- Your average taxpayer/consumer wouldn’t like it one bit, especially the ones who’re travelling right now. Public opinion can motivate governments to make even more unhelpful decisions.

- I don’t think any corporation providing “essential services” in Canada wants to start a debate about why services and products that are “essential” for the public, are left to the whim of businessmen/shareholders who are unaccountable to the public.

While such tactics will be great for the popcorn makers in the short term, it will do more harm than good. Not that I’d be upset if all flights to YOW were stopped (for now, forever, don’t care).

The big picture remains the same. Canadian airlines and the government are “negotiating” the terms of aid. The (self-evident) problem is that the government is the lender of last resort. Last resort, by definition, is no negotiations / “take it or leave it” territory. If/when airlines reach that point, money will flow. But it will be on the governments / taxpayers terms.

Which seems to be the crux of the problem. Am I wrong in stating that some (all?) Canadian airlines wouldn’t, say, accept the German approach of aid in exchange of equity? Could’ve sworn I saw something to that effect not long ago. If one has the luxury of turning down conditional aid, does one really need it?

Vent away, but I think we need to acknowledge that we won’t reach the point where the government needs to step in until the pretence of “negotiations”, “discussions” whatever stops.
Last edited by ElPistolero on Fri Feb 05, 2021 6:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
777luver
Posts: 606
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:44 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Feb 05, 2021 6:56 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
CrewBunk wrote:
777luver wrote:
AC and the govt are going head to head

I’ve always thought that both Air Canada and Westjet should shut down for a week. If anything, to show the morons in Ottawa just how essential airlines are. Then .... when back flying, don’t fly to Ottawa at all. Let the federal MPs ride Via Rail and Greyhound!

It’s not a fluke that almost every developed nation on the earth, with forward thinking governments, are fully supporting their airlines.


I understand the frustration, but should point out that AC, WS, PD, TS, Flair (whoever) shutting down service for a day, week, month, year to make a point would be counterproductive for two reasons:

- Your average taxpayer/consumer wouldn’t like it one bit, especially the ones who’re travelling right now

- I don’t think any corporation providing “essential services” in Canada wants to start a debate why services and products that are “essential” are left to the whim of businessmen/shareholders who are unaccountable to the public businessmen.

While such tactics will be great for the popcorn makers in the short term, it will do more harm than benefit in the long term. Not that I’d be upset if all flights to YOW were stopped (for now, forever, don’t care).

The big picture remains the same. Canadian airlines and the Government are “negotiating” the terms of aid. The (self-evident) problem is that the government is the lender of last resort. Last resort, by definition, is no negotiations / “take it or leave it” territory. If/when airlines reach that point, money will flow. But it will be on the governments / taxpayers terms.

Which seems to be the crux of the problem. Am I wrong in stating that some (all?) Canadian airlines wouldn’t l, say, accept the German approach of aid in exchange of equity? Could’ve sworn I saw something to that effect not long ago. If one has the luxury of turning down conditional aid, does one really need it?

Vent away, but I think we need to acknowledge that we won’t reach the point where the government needs to step in until the pretence of “negotiations”, “discussions” whatever stops.


You aren't wrong. AC has flat out denied any talk of govt stake in the airline because of disastrous examples around the world. If they don't see it as doable or fair terms they will walk away, as seen with with LFFT, which is not a good loan for an airline of AC/Westjets size. The thing that doesn't make sense is why the govt is so hung up on refunds and I know it's pure politics, but are they that inept and incompetent to not understand and think "hmm all the other airlines worldwide recieved govt help, are essential and were able to refund their fares" clearly not. Instead they repeatedly say "refunds first" do they actually expect a bleeding company to tap into its survival bank account to give $2.3 billion in refunds right now when it needs cash more more ever? Clearly they do and it's unbelievable to put it lightly. But hey let's look good for the polls....even though we told them it was okay last year. 11 months into the crisis. As I stated in another thread let's see what the latest round of negotiations with the govt regarding sun flights does. Not holding my breath though
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 2404
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Feb 05, 2021 7:17 pm

777luver wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
CrewBunk wrote:
I’ve always thought that both Air Canada and Westjet should shut down for a week. If anything, to show the morons in Ottawa just how essential airlines are. Then .... when back flying, don’t fly to Ottawa at all. Let the federal MPs ride Via Rail and Greyhound!

It’s not a fluke that almost every developed nation on the earth, with forward thinking governments, are fully supporting their airlines.


I understand the frustration, but should point out that AC, WS, PD, TS, Flair (whoever) shutting down service for a day, week, month, year to make a point would be counterproductive for two reasons:

- Your average taxpayer/consumer wouldn’t like it one bit, especially the ones who’re travelling right now

- I don’t think any corporation providing “essential services” in Canada wants to start a debate why services and products that are “essential” are left to the whim of businessmen/shareholders who are unaccountable to the public businessmen.

While such tactics will be great for the popcorn makers in the short term, it will do more harm than benefit in the long term. Not that I’d be upset if all flights to YOW were stopped (for now, forever, don’t care).

The big picture remains the same. Canadian airlines and the Government are “negotiating” the terms of aid. The (self-evident) problem is that the government is the lender of last resort. Last resort, by definition, is no negotiations / “take it or leave it” territory. If/when airlines reach that point, money will flow. But it will be on the governments / taxpayers terms.

Which seems to be the crux of the problem. Am I wrong in stating that some (all?) Canadian airlines wouldn’t l, say, accept the German approach of aid in exchange of equity? Could’ve sworn I saw something to that effect not long ago. If one has the luxury of turning down conditional aid, does one really need it?

Vent away, but I think we need to acknowledge that we won’t reach the point where the government needs to step in until the pretence of “negotiations”, “discussions” whatever stops.


You aren't wrong. AC has flat out denied any talk of govt stake in the airline because of disastrous examples around the world. If they don't see it as doable or fair terms they will walk away, as seen with with LFFT, which is not a good loan for an airline of AC/Westjets size. The thing that doesn't make sense is why the govt is so hung up on refunds and I know it's pure politics, but are they that inept and incompetent to not understand and think "hmm all the other airlines worldwide recieved govt help, are essential and were able to refund their fares" clearly not. Instead they repeatedly say "refunds first" do they actually expect a bleeding company to tap into its survival bank account to give $2.3 billion in refunds right now when it needs cash more more ever? Clearly they do and it's unbelievable to put it lightly. But hey let's look good for the polls....even though we told them it was okay last year. 11 months into the crisis. As I stated in another thread let's see what the latest round of negotiations with the govt regarding sun flights does. Not holding my breath though


Lufthansa doesn’t strike me as being in the business of making disastrous decisions, but here we are.

Should point out that the fact that $2.3B in unrefunded fares will not be refunded unless the government coughs up that amount (or more), effectively makes that a $2.3B government subsidy.

As an aside, the article you link to cites an opposition MP, not the government, wanting the refunds to happen. The CTA “order” - no need to refund - is the governments position.
 
777luver
Posts: 606
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:44 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Feb 05, 2021 7:38 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
777luver wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:

I understand the frustration, but should point out that AC, WS, PD, TS, Flair (whoever) shutting down service for a day, week, month, year to make a point would be counterproductive for two reasons:

- Your average taxpayer/consumer wouldn’t like it one bit, especially the ones who’re travelling right now

- I don’t think any corporation providing “essential services” in Canada wants to start a debate why services and products that are “essential” are left to the whim of businessmen/shareholders who are unaccountable to the public businessmen.

While such tactics will be great for the popcorn makers in the short term, it will do more harm than benefit in the long term. Not that I’d be upset if all flights to YOW were stopped (for now, forever, don’t care).

The big picture remains the same. Canadian airlines and the Government are “negotiating” the terms of aid. The (self-evident) problem is that the government is the lender of last resort. Last resort, by definition, is no negotiations / “take it or leave it” territory. If/when airlines reach that point, money will flow. But it will be on the governments / taxpayers terms.

Which seems to be the crux of the problem. Am I wrong in stating that some (all?) Canadian airlines wouldn’t l, say, accept the German approach of aid in exchange of equity? Could’ve sworn I saw something to that effect not long ago. If one has the luxury of turning down conditional aid, does one really need it?

Vent away, but I think we need to acknowledge that we won’t reach the point where the government needs to step in until the pretence of “negotiations”, “discussions” whatever stops.


You aren't wrong. AC has flat out denied any talk of govt stake in the airline because of disastrous examples around the world. If they don't see it as doable or fair terms they will walk away, as seen with with LFFT, which is not a good loan for an airline of AC/Westjets size. The thing that doesn't make sense is why the govt is so hung up on refunds and I know it's pure politics, but are they that inept and incompetent to not understand and think "hmm all the other airlines worldwide recieved govt help, are essential and were able to refund their fares" clearly not. Instead they repeatedly say "refunds first" do they actually expect a bleeding company to tap into its survival bank account to give $2.3 billion in refunds right now when it needs cash more more ever? Clearly they do and it's unbelievable to put it lightly. But hey let's look good for the polls....even though we told them it was okay last year. 11 months into the crisis. As I stated in another thread let's see what the latest round of negotiations with the govt regarding sun flights does. Not holding my breath though


Lufthansa doesn’t strike me as being in the business of making disastrous decisions, but here we are.

Should point out that the fact that $2.3B in unrefunded fares will not be refunded unless the government coughs up that amount (or more), effectively makes that a $2.3B government subsidy.

As an aside, the article you link to cites an opposition MP, not the government, wanting the refunds to happen. The CTA “order” - no need to refund - is the governments position.


I agree, LH isn't a disastrous company. And I don't think the Liberals realize that any aid now will have to be almost double in size than may have been needed originally because its been dragged out for so long. Having said that, the US carriers and some European carriers were given a second round of aid after begging for the 2nd time. If anything it shows how strong our 2 major carriers are but that can only last so long.

Point taken. With the opposition MP wanting refunds not the govt, then that explains why the govt has changed its stance on demanding refunds, because of pressure from MPs etc. Not even following it's own CTA guidelines. Aahh politics
 
multimark
Posts: 482
Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2006 1:53 pm

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Feb 05, 2021 7:51 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
Lufthansa doesn’t strike me as being in the business of making disastrous decisions, but here we are.

Should point out that the fact that $2.3B in unrefunded fares will not be refunded unless the government coughs up that amount (or more), effectively makes that a $2.3B government subsidy.

As an aside, the article you link to cites an opposition MP, not the government, wanting the refunds to happen. The CTA “order” - no need to refund - is the governments position.


Honestly why the government is choosing this $2.3 billion hill to die on, after handing out hundreds of billions in various aid programs is baffling. Just give the aid to airlines and let them refund the public.
 
CXH
Posts: 168
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2004 10:37 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Feb 05, 2021 11:38 pm

I know AC has a small handful of 330s active. And I think three of them are in cargo config (all Y seats removed).

Does anyone know why this A330 does nothing but YUL-YVR-YUL?

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/CGKUH
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/cgkuh
 
avi8
Posts: 1407
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2011 1:36 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Sat Feb 06, 2021 12:07 am

Does anyone know how many 737 MAXs' AC has updated to the new requirements? When will all of them be ready and back into service?

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