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tax1k
Posts: 105
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2016 5:02 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Thu Mar 04, 2021 10:19 pm

What are AC 789s doing in ATL?
 
ramprat320
Posts: 65
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2015 8:17 pm

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Thu Mar 04, 2021 10:50 pm

We were full of cargo when I did it last week.
 
yyztpa2
Posts: 238
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:30 pm

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Thu Mar 04, 2021 11:02 pm

It appears the two A220 sent to PHX two weeks ago are still there.

Are they parked? Are they the only ones?
 
Airlinerdude
Posts: 268
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:07 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:54 am

CFWAD wrote:
With the DH3 gone, I highly doubt you will see AC resurrect some of their smaller station closures from over the past year.

Smaller cities closer to a larger population base prefer the frequency the B190, DH1 and DH3 were able to provide. Now your lowest option has become a 50-seat jet from yesteryear.
People in Lethrbridge, Medicine Hat, North Bay, etc. are close enough to drive to another AC station without having to wait for their now 1x daily flight on a CR2 or DH4.


I can't help but wonder if the announcement of the DH3 retirement is some kind of bargaining chip that AC is using in its negotiations for some kind of government assistance. As you rightly pointed out, the economics of some of these cities won't justify being served by the DH4/CR2. I just can't imagine the business case for serving some of these destinations will have changed so drastically post-pandemic.

As for Sky consolidation, hasn't this been talked about for a while? Maybe it was just wishful thinking, but I recall speaking to some higher seniority Jazz pilots back in 2019 around the same time as the GGN consolidation who said Sky was next.
 
9252fly
Posts: 1222
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2005 7:19 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Mar 05, 2021 4:25 am

Airlinerdude wrote:
CFWAD wrote:
With the DH3 gone, I highly doubt you will see AC resurrect some of their smaller station closures from over the past year.

Smaller cities closer to a larger population base prefer the frequency the B190, DH1 and DH3 were able to provide. Now your lowest option has become a 50-seat jet from yesteryear.
People in Lethrbridge, Medicine Hat, North Bay, etc. are close enough to drive to another AC station without having to wait for their now 1x daily flight on a CR2 or DH4.


I can't help but wonder if the announcement of the DH3 retirement is some kind of bargaining chip that AC is using in its negotiations for some kind of government assistance. As you rightly pointed out, the economics of some of these cities won't justify being served by the DH4/CR2. I just can't imagine the business case for serving some of these destinations will have changed so drastically post-pandemic.

As for Sky consolidation, hasn't this been talked about for a while? Maybe it was just wishful thinking, but I recall speaking to some higher seniority Jazz pilots back in 2019 around the same time as the GGN consolidation who said Sky was next.


The DH3 would have been withdrawn by 2025 without the pandemic. Whether the timing of the announcement was a coincidence, or bargaining chip is another matter. AC is planning for a future that's unlike what they had envisioned a year ago. The debt they will carry out of this crisis is staggering. There are no sacred cows.
Sky Regional, like Georgian were created to put pressure on Jazz to reduce AC CPA agreement costs. It was extremely effective in the whip-saw negotiations and fleet transfer of RJs to Georgian and E75s from mainline.
 
777luver
Posts: 606
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:44 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Mar 05, 2021 4:29 am

Airlinerdude wrote:
CFWAD wrote:
With the DH3 gone, I highly doubt you will see AC resurrect some of their smaller station closures from over the past year.

Smaller cities closer to a larger population base prefer the frequency the B190, DH1 and DH3 were able to provide. Now your lowest option has become a 50-seat jet from yesteryear.
People in Lethrbridge, Medicine Hat, North Bay, etc. are close enough to drive to another AC station without having to wait for their now 1x daily flight on a CR2 or DH4.


I can't help but wonder if the announcement of the DH3 retirement is some kind of bargaining chip that AC is using in its negotiations for some kind of government assistance. As you rightly pointed out, the economics of some of these cities won't justify being served by the DH4/CR2. I just can't imagine the business case for serving some of these destinations will have changed so drastically post-pandemic.

As for Sky consolidation, hasn't this been talked about for a while? Maybe it was just wishful thinking, but I recall speaking to some higher seniority Jazz pilots back in 2019 around the same time as the GGN consolidation who said Sky was next.


The consolidation had been talked about pre covid
 
777luver
Posts: 606
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:44 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Mar 05, 2021 4:30 am

9252fly wrote:
Airlinerdude wrote:
CFWAD wrote:
With the DH3 gone, I highly doubt you will see AC resurrect some of their smaller station closures from over the past year.

Smaller cities closer to a larger population base prefer the frequency the B190, DH1 and DH3 were able to provide. Now your lowest option has become a 50-seat jet from yesteryear.
People in Lethrbridge, Medicine Hat, North Bay, etc. are close enough to drive to another AC station without having to wait for their now 1x daily flight on a CR2 or DH4.


I can't help but wonder if the announcement of the DH3 retirement is some kind of bargaining chip that AC is using in its negotiations for some kind of government assistance. As you rightly pointed out, the economics of some of these cities won't justify being served by the DH4/CR2. I just can't imagine the business case for serving some of these destinations will have changed so drastically post-pandemic.

As for Sky consolidation, hasn't this been talked about for a while? Maybe it was just wishful thinking, but I recall speaking to some higher seniority Jazz pilots back in 2019 around the same time as the GGN consolidation who said Sky was next.


The DH3 would have been withdrawn by 2025 without the pandemic. Whether the timing of the announcement was a coincidence, or bargaining chip is another matter. AC is planning for a future that's unlike what they had envisioned a year ago. The debt they will carry out of this crisis is staggering. There are no sacred cows.
Sky Regional, like Georgian were created to put pressure on Jazz to reduce AC CPA agreement costs. It was extremely effective in the whip-saw negotiations and fleet transfer of RJs to Georgian and E75s from mainline.


It is staggering to see the debt all airlines will have, it's insane really
 
FabienA380
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:46 pm

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Mar 05, 2021 4:07 pm

yyztpa2 wrote:
It appears the two A220 sent to PHX two weeks ago are still there.

Are they parked? Are they the only ones?


Looks like there is a third one parked now, GNGV at YMX.
 
Planeboy17
Posts: 572
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:18 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:27 pm

Just curious if anyone has more info on cargo flights from YVR-ORD starting this month and next with 773 and 787s? I have it on good authority that this will start soon but just interested in days and time or other info.
 
Thenoflyzone
Posts: 3170
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2001 4:42 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:08 am

Planeboy17 wrote:
Just curious if anyone has more info on cargo flights from YVR-ORD starting this month and next with 773 and 787s? I have it on good authority that this will start soon but just interested in days and time or other info.


https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/ac7242

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/ac7226

Once they update the cargo schedule, look for more info here.
 
Planeboy17
Posts: 572
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:18 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Tue Mar 09, 2021 2:55 pm

Thenoflyzone wrote:
Planeboy17 wrote:
Just curious if anyone has more info on cargo flights from YVR-ORD starting this month and next with 773 and 787s? I have it on good authority that this will start soon but just interested in days and time or other info.


https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/ac7242

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/ac7226

Once they update the cargo schedule, look for more info here.

Thanks for the info.
 
codyul
Posts: 171
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:43 pm

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Tue Mar 09, 2021 4:36 pm

Planeboy17 wrote:
Just curious if anyone has more info on cargo flights from YVR-ORD starting this month and next with 773 and 787s? I have it on good authority that this will start soon but just interested in days and time or other info.


"Air Canada Cargo boosts freight fleet while launching e-commerce service - The Loadstar" https://theloadstar.com/air-canada-carg ... e-service/

If I understand the article correctly, AC is indeed adding more 777 and 300 to the cargo flights, removing seats from the cabin..
 
ThePointblank
Posts: 3856
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:39 pm

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Tue Mar 09, 2021 5:30 pm

An Air Canada 763, registration C-FPCA, was pulled out of storage in Arizona, flown to YYZ, and is being prepped to fly to TLV for conversion into a freighter.

https://twitter.com/TomPodolec/status/1 ... 07177?s=19
 
777luver
Posts: 606
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:44 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Tue Mar 09, 2021 6:00 pm

ThePointblank wrote:
An Air Canada 763, registration C-FPCA, was pulled out of storage in Arizona, flown to YYZ, and is being prepped to fly to TLV for conversion into a freighter.

https://twitter.com/TomPodolec/status/1 ... 07177?s=19


Glad to see them back in service! Albeit as a cargo plane. Never thought I'd see that again
 
yzfElite
Posts: 81
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2016 5:14 pm

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Tue Mar 09, 2021 8:17 pm

777luver wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
An Air Canada 763, registration C-FPCA, was pulled out of storage in Arizona, flown to YYZ, and is being prepped to fly to TLV for conversion into a freighter.

https://twitter.com/TomPodolec/status/1 ... 07177?s=19


Glad to see them back in service! Albeit as a cargo plane. Never thought I'd see that again


Wow, I wonder why they would pay to convert this bird and not one of the much newer ones - perhaps they don't own the newer ones, I haven't kept up over the years. AC puts its long-haul birds to good use, so at 32 years old you'd think this one was getting pretty tired even for cargo conversion.
 
runway23
Posts: 2427
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:12 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:29 pm

The Aeronetwork reporting a slew of cancellations for the upcoming summer schedule:

YUL-NCE/BOD/MRS/BCN/PVG
YVR-TPE/SYD
YYZ-GLA/EDI/BCN

+ 36 mainline/express and 9 transborder routes removed.

Not reported, but it also seems that YUL-TLS, YUL/YYZ-VCE 0'd out too.
 
Cardude100000
Posts: 12
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:46 pm

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Thu Mar 11, 2021 4:56 pm

Anyone know how bookings are looking for late summer/fall as vaccinations are picking up in Canada? I'm sure its probably low with the quarantine but are people also anticipating it to end soon?
 
777luver
Posts: 606
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:44 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Thu Mar 11, 2021 5:01 pm

Cardude100000 wrote:
Anyone know how bookings are looking for late summer/fall as vaccinations are picking up in Canada? I'm sure its probably low with the quarantine but are people also anticipating it to end soon?


The govt won't say anything regarding quarantines until more data has come out about the vaccines and whatnot. This govt seems hesitant to move quickly on anything, careful is a better word so it remains to be seen
 
billsalton92
Posts: 35
Joined: Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:12 pm

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Thu Mar 11, 2021 5:18 pm

yzfElite wrote:
777luver wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
An Air Canada 763, registration C-FPCA, was pulled out of storage in Arizona, flown to YYZ, and is being prepped to fly to TLV for conversion into a freighter.

https://twitter.com/TomPodolec/status/1 ... 07177?s=19


Glad to see them back in service! Albeit as a cargo plane. Never thought I'd see that again


Wow, I wonder why they would pay to convert this bird and not one of the much newer ones - perhaps they don't own the newer ones, I haven't kept up over the years. AC puts its long-haul birds to good use, so at 32 years old you'd think this one was getting pretty tired even for cargo conversion.


Cargojet has put C-FCAE to good use as a freighter. She was the highest time 767 active at the time of retirement, with more than 130'000 hours, and she was one of the 4 ex-Canadian fins that didn't have FADEC. W8 might have different standards with regards to older frames, as they do operate 762s still. Air Canada could still get some use out of her in this tough time, and I'm fairly certain she was paid off and opened wholly by AC (correct me if I'm wrong)

Bill
 
baje427
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Thu Mar 11, 2021 5:38 pm

I wonder if they will pick up any of the Q400's coming on the market I would think they can get a pretty good deal on them.
 
User avatar
Citrus1492
Posts: 77
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Thu Mar 11, 2021 5:54 pm

baje427 wrote:
I wonder if they will pick up any of the Q400's coming on the market I would think they can get a pretty good deal on them.


They are going to need something if they plan on restarting the AC Transit concept. If AC doesnt get back into the midsized U.S. cities, Encore and Porter will.
 
9252fly
Posts: 1222
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2005 7:19 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Thu Mar 11, 2021 6:36 pm

baje427 wrote:
I wonder if they will pick up any of the Q400's coming on the market I would think they can get a pretty good deal on them.


If anything, they're try to get rid of some of them. Most likely the one's to go are the 10 leased that were originally delivered to Lynx. The future focus will be on aircraft in the CR9 and E75 category. What remains unknown are the intentions for the 15 CR2's, they too will eventually leave the fleet.
 
Whiteguy
Posts: 1706
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2003 6:11 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Thu Mar 11, 2021 6:39 pm

9252fly wrote:
baje427 wrote:
I wonder if they will pick up any of the Q400's coming on the market I would think they can get a pretty good deal on them.


If anything, they're try to get rid of some of them. Most likely the one's to go are the 10 leased that were originally delivered to Lynx. The future focus will be on aircraft in the CR9 and E75 category. What remains unknown are the intentions for the 15 CR2's, they too will eventually leave the fleet.


The ex Lynx, Sky Regional, aircraft have already started leaving
 
777luver
Posts: 606
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:44 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:32 pm

Air Transat and AC agreed to terminate takeover agreement after the European Comission made it evident that it wouldn't approve of the deal even if further concessions were made.

https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/a ... 88140.html
 
codyul
Posts: 171
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:43 pm

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:42 pm

[url][/url]
777luver wrote:
Air Transat and AC agreed to terminate takeover agreement after the European Comission made it evident that it wouldn't approve of the deal even if further concessions were made.

https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/a ... 88140.html


Wow. Not a complete shock, yet I am still surprised. I wonder if Michael wasn't as keen as Calin. And definitely not worth giving up too many concessions.
Better to be lean and mean with the recovery still slow (well non-existent at this point in Canada)
And probably good for me. Union seniority would have been messy.
 
777luver
Posts: 606
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:44 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:46 pm

codyul wrote:
[url][/url]
777luver wrote:
Air Transat and AC agreed to terminate takeover agreement after the European Comission made it evident that it wouldn't approve of the deal even if further concessions were made.

https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/a ... 88140.html


Wow. Not a complete shock, yet I am still surprised. I wonder if Michael wasn't as keen as Calin. And definitely not worth giving up too many concessions.
Better to be lean and mean with the recovery still slow (well non-existent at this point in Canada)
And probably good for me. Union seniority would have been messy.


I'm shocked too but not surprised. I think what blows me away is the EC said that the current deal put forward wasn't enough, AND that further concessions wouldn't be enough
Last edited by 777luver on Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
alan3
Posts: 474
Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2014 6:13 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:52 pm

I'm surprised too but good news for the consumer and it would have been a messy merger. Guess we won't be seeing any AC A321's transatlantic after all! Having missed the winter sun season and with summer 2021 still up in the air, Transat just need to find a way to survive into 2022.

(IMO this is a big enough story deseres its own thread instead of being buried here....I miss the old anet format)
 
777luver
Posts: 606
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:44 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:57 pm

alan3 wrote:
I'm surprised too but good news for the consumer and it would have been a messy merger. Guess we won't be seeing any AC A321's transatlantic after all! Having missed the winter sun season and with summer 2021 still up in the air, Transat just need to find a way to survive into 2022.

(IMO this is a big enough story deseres its own thread instead of being buried here....I miss the old anet format)


Why is it good for consumers? I'll create another separate thread
 
codyul
Posts: 171
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:43 pm

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:59 pm

777luver wrote:
codyul wrote:
[url][/url]
777luver wrote:
Air Transat and AC agreed to terminate takeover agreement after the European Comission made it evident that it wouldn't approve of the deal even if further concessions were made.

https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/a ... 88140.html


Wow. Not a complete shock, yet I am still surprised. I wonder if Michael wasn't as keen as Calin. And definitely not worth giving up too many concessions.
Better to be lean and mean with the recovery still slow (well non-existent at this point in Canada)
And probably good for me. Union seniority would have been messy.


I'm shocked too but not surprised. I think what blows me away is the EC said that the current deal put forward wasn't enough, AND that further concessions wouldn't be enough

Yeah I'd say that is a bit protectionist, when they've approved IAG buying Air Europa etc
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 12400
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:05 pm

777luver wrote:
alan3 wrote:
I'm surprised too but good news for the consumer and it would have been a messy merger. Guess we won't be seeing any AC A321's transatlantic after all! Having missed the winter sun season and with summer 2021 still up in the air, Transat just need to find a way to survive into 2022.

(IMO this is a big enough story deseres its own thread instead of being buried here....I miss the old anet format)


Why is it good for consumers? I'll create another separate thread

Pre covid I think you could make an argument that AC not getting TS would be better for consumers, as TS was surviving on their own or could have merged with WestJet building a stronger competitor to AC.

Post covid, with TS’s survival very much in doubt, whether the merger went through or not likely has minimal impact on consumers.
 
777luver
Posts: 606
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:44 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:08 pm

codyul wrote:
777luver wrote:
codyul wrote:
[url][/url]

Wow. Not a complete shock, yet I am still surprised. I wonder if Michael wasn't as keen as Calin. And definitely not worth giving up too many concessions.
Better to be lean and mean with the recovery still slow (well non-existent at this point in Canada)
And probably good for me. Union seniority would have been messy.


I'm shocked too but not surprised. I think what blows me away is the EC said that the current deal put forward wasn't enough, AND that further concessions wouldn't be enough

Yeah I'd say that is a bit protectionist, when they've approved IAG buying Air Europa etc


I agree but I think it's EXTREMELY protectionist but I'm also biased so
 
777luver
Posts: 606
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:44 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:09 pm

Polot wrote:
777luver wrote:
alan3 wrote:
I'm surprised too but good news for the consumer and it would have been a messy merger. Guess we won't be seeing any AC A321's transatlantic after all! Having missed the winter sun season and with summer 2021 still up in the air, Transat just need to find a way to survive into 2022.

(IMO this is a big enough story deseres its own thread instead of being buried here....I miss the old anet format)


Why is it good for consumers? I'll create another separate thread

Pre covid I think you could make an argument that AC not getting TS would be better for consumers, as TS was surviving on their own or could have merged with WestJet building a stronger competitor to AC.

Post covid, with TS’s survival very much in doubt, whether the merger went through or not likely has minimal impact on consumers.


I also agree with your statement. I think Transat survival is very much in limbo now unless Onex or the Pierre guy swoop in to save it
 
alan3
Posts: 474
Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2014 6:13 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:15 pm

Polot wrote:
777luver wrote:
alan3 wrote:
I'm surprised too but good news for the consumer and it would have been a messy merger. Guess we won't be seeing any AC A321's transatlantic after all! Having missed the winter sun season and with summer 2021 still up in the air, Transat just need to find a way to survive into 2022.

(IMO this is a big enough story deseres its own thread instead of being buried here....I miss the old anet format)


Why is it good for consumers? I'll create another separate thread

Pre covid I think you could make an argument that AC not getting TS would be better for consumers, as TS was surviving on their own or could have merged with WestJet building a stronger competitor to AC.

Post covid, with TS’s survival very much in doubt, whether the merger went through or not likely has minimal impact on consumers.



Yes, I should clarify that I'm viewing this through the lens of a pre or post Covid environment. Obviously if 2021 remains bleak, AT may not survive through to 2022, 2023 anyway without the domestic and VFR base that AC has. Sunwing and Transat should already see a pickup in winter 2021-22 sun travel and transatlantic travel will return in 2022 and IMO the more competition the better unless I'm remembering my high school economics wrong.

If we look ahead to summers in the future, the US is going to have more Transatlantic competion (Jetblue, Aer Lingus adding UK-US flights, the new Norsk Atlantic Airways, etc) while we want Canada to have less?
 
jimbo737
Posts: 581
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:18 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:21 pm

As some will recall I’m not even remotely surprised  by this decision, other than by how long it took to make it. 

The EU came to the same conclusions as the Cdn Competition Bureau, but the liberals couldn’t manipulate / interfere with the EU decision making process as they usually do for partisan reasons in Canada.

Transat would have been a ridiculous, unnecessary distraction for AC, even pre covid.

I highly doubt WS had / has no serious interest in it and no one else could viably make this work without at least 50 tails providing domestic feed.
 
777luver
Posts: 606
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:44 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:25 pm

alan3 wrote:
Polot wrote:
777luver wrote:

Why is it good for consumers? I'll create another separate thread

Pre covid I think you could make an argument that AC not getting TS would be better for consumers, as TS was surviving on their own or could have merged with WestJet building a stronger competitor to AC.

Post covid, with TS’s survival very much in doubt, whether the merger went through or not likely has minimal impact on consumers.



Yes, I should clarify that I'm viewing this through the lens of a pre or post Covid environment. Obviously if 2021 remains bleak, AT may not survive through to 2022, 2023 anyway without the domestic and VFR base that AC has. Sunwing and Transat should already see a pickup in winter 2021-22 sun travel and transatlantic travel will return in 2022 and IMO the more competition the better unless I'm remembering my high school economics wrong.

If we look ahead to summers in the future, the US is going to have more Transatlantic competion (Jetblue, Aer Lingus adding UK-US flights, the new Norsk Atlantic Airways, etc) while we want Canada to have less?


You bring up valid points, I agree with your position
 
777luver
Posts: 606
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:44 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:28 pm

jimbo737 wrote:
As some will recall I’m not even remotely surprised  by this decision, other than by how long it took to make it. 

The EU came to the same conclusions as the Cdn Competition Bureau, but the liberals couldn’t manipulate / interfere with the EU decision making process as they usually do for partisan reasons in Canada.

Transat would have been a ridiculous, unnecessary distraction for AC, even pre covid.

I highly doubt WS had / has no serious interest in it and no one else could viably make this work without at least 50 tails providing domestic feed.


It's protectionism as well, AC/Transat would've had too many routes and even if they coughed up more to please the EU, it wouldn't have made any business sense which leads me to believe they would have had to give up A LOT.

I'm not sure about onex, maybe someone can jog my memory but was Onex ever even interested in Transat, pre covid? That Pierre guy seems interested but Transat like every other airline is a financial mess right now so maybe it will scare him off or was he just yelling into the air to be a savior and Swoop in the save Transat and be a hero?
 
basspaul
Posts: 69
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:18 pm

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:36 pm

The other thing to think about is that there's a lot less political baggage if the Quebec government offers financial assistance to AT vs AC. Don't forget the current premier of Quebec is a former board member of AT.

I hope AT survives, they're a decent operation and the pent up demand for travel should reward them well if they make it until the end of this COVID era.
 
777luver
Posts: 606
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:44 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:42 pm

As quoted from the Globe and Mail article, "An investment company headed by Quebec entrepreneur Pierre Karl Peladeau had made an offer to pay $5 a share for Transat if the Air Canada deal fell apart. A spokeswoman for Mr. Peladeau said on Friday the offer is valid for 24 hours after the cancellation of the Air Canada takeover, but that it is not clear when the clock starts. Mr. Peladeau was not immediately available to comment"

Wonder when the clock starts
 
IADCA
Posts: 2412
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:24 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:57 pm

777luver wrote:
jimbo737 wrote:
As some will recall I’m not even remotely surprised  by this decision, other than by how long it took to make it. 

The EU came to the same conclusions as the Cdn Competition Bureau, but the liberals couldn’t manipulate / interfere with the EU decision making process as they usually do for partisan reasons in Canada.

Transat would have been a ridiculous, unnecessary distraction for AC, even pre covid.

I highly doubt WS had / has no serious interest in it and no one else could viably make this work without at least 50 tails providing domestic feed.


It's protectionism as well, AC/Transat would've had too many routes and even if they coughed up more to please the EU, it wouldn't have made any business sense which leads me to believe they would have had to give up A LOT.

I'm not sure about onex, maybe someone can jog my memory but was Onex ever even interested in Transat, pre covid? That Pierre guy seems interested but Transat like every other airline is a financial mess right now so maybe it will scare him off or was he just yelling into the air to be a savior and Swoop in the save Transat and be a hero?


It's not protectionism except as it relates to protecting EU consumers. It's an antitrust review and what they care about is price and availability to EU consumers, not impact on EU companies or squat all to do with Canada or with trade law. And frankly, I can't see any argument at all (at least pre-COVID and TS crumbling) that this didn't hurt consumers on certain EU-Canada routes, particularly to secondary destinations. The only question in the antitrust community was whether that harm to competition would be enough that they'd actually want to block the deal or would demand remedies that AC couldn't swallow.
 
777luver
Posts: 606
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:44 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Apr 02, 2021 6:36 pm

IADCA wrote:
777luver wrote:
jimbo737 wrote:
As some will recall I’m not even remotely surprised  by this decision, other than by how long it took to make it. 

The EU came to the same conclusions as the Cdn Competition Bureau, but the liberals couldn’t manipulate / interfere with the EU decision making process as they usually do for partisan reasons in Canada.

Transat would have been a ridiculous, unnecessary distraction for AC, even pre covid.

I highly doubt WS had / has no serious interest in it and no one else could viably make this work without at least 50 tails providing domestic feed.


It's protectionism as well, AC/Transat would've had too many routes and even if they coughed up more to please the EU, it wouldn't have made any business sense which leads me to believe they would have had to give up A LOT.

I'm not sure about onex, maybe someone can jog my memory but was Onex ever even interested in Transat, pre covid? That Pierre guy seems interested but Transat like every other airline is a financial mess right now so maybe it will scare him off or was he just yelling into the air to be a savior and Swoop in the save Transat and be a hero?


It's not protectionism except as it relates to protecting EU consumers. It's an antitrust review and what they care about is price and availability to EU consumers, not impact on EU companies or squat all to do with Canada or with trade law. And frankly, I can't see any argument at all (at least pre-COVID and TS crumbling) that this didn't hurt consumers on certain EU-Canada routes, particularly to secondary destinations. The only question in the antitrust community was whether that harm to competition would be enough that they'd actually want to block the deal or would demand remedies that AC couldn't swallow.


What's the argument that such a deal would hurt consumers? Thanks for clarifying on the anti trust, I said protectionism because it protects the EU, not just airlines but that's a moot point
 
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lesfalls
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:42 pm

Why does this come under the power of EC? AA and US Airways didn't need the EC approval for their merger.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 2404
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Apr 02, 2021 8:15 pm

777luver wrote:
IADCA wrote:
777luver wrote:

It's protectionism as well, AC/Transat would've had too many routes and even if they coughed up more to please the EU, it wouldn't have made any business sense which leads me to believe they would have had to give up A LOT.

I'm not sure about onex, maybe someone can jog my memory but was Onex ever even interested in Transat, pre covid? That Pierre guy seems interested but Transat like every other airline is a financial mess right now so maybe it will scare him off or was he just yelling into the air to be a savior and Swoop in the save Transat and be a hero?


It's not protectionism except as it relates to protecting EU consumers. It's an antitrust review and what they care about is price and availability to EU consumers, not impact on EU companies or squat all to do with Canada or with trade law. And frankly, I can't see any argument at all (at least pre-COVID and TS crumbling) that this didn't hurt consumers on certain EU-Canada routes, particularly to secondary destinations. The only question in the antitrust community was whether that harm to competition would be enough that they'd actually want to block the deal or would demand remedies that AC couldn't swallow.


What's the argument that such a deal would hurt consumers? Thanks for clarifying on the anti trust, I said protectionism because it protects the EU, not just airlines but that's a moot point


In the Competition Bureau report, for one. Will have to wait for the EU to reports its finding.

The notion that this is protectionism doesn’t make sense here.

TAA++ means AC/LH/OS/LX/SN are one carrier (metal neutral/price coordination/revenue sharing). This is all explained in the Canadian Competition Bureau report. In effect, the entire LH group stands to lose on the basis of this ruling. If the EU is protecting EU carriers with this, it’s not doing a very good job.

Didn’t think TAA+ was unknown on this site, so going to assume that these accusations of protectionism reflect anger and a need to lash out, rather than rooted in any logic or evidence.
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Apr 02, 2021 8:43 pm

Not surprised that the EU ruled this way. They’ve always viewed competition more positively than Canada.

No, the EU move isn’t protectionist; it runs counter to what EU heavyweight - the LH Group - would have wanted. This deal would have given TAA+ - the single airline with 5/6 different names/coloured tails - control of what...~70% of the market? It does seem to be annoying some of my compatriots that the EU hasn’t been hoodwinked into seeing different coloured tails and thinking “competition!”

I think the EU move demonstrates just how disconnected the Canadian mindset on competition is from other developed countries. In effect, the EU has told Canada not to export the problems arising from Canada’s mismanagement of the Canadian aviation market to the EU.

I know a few folk here are big fans of the whole “Canadian champion” schtick. As a reminder:

“Aitken says Air Canada suggests it should be allowed to dominate parts of its home market to ensure it can thrive as a Canadian champion internationally. She rejects that economic strategy. “Canadian consumers and businesses,” she says, “ought not to pay the price for a company to be coddled at home so that it can stride about on the world stage.””

https://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/ahe ... mpetition/

The pitfalls of that approach have been laid bare here. In trying to prop up AC as a Canadian champion (I recall maintaining EU routes touted here frequently as a justification for protectionism favourable to AC in the not-so-distant past), Canada has distorted the market so badly, that the EU has no choice but to take a stand. Unfortunate that TS employees have to pay the price.
 
Breathe
Posts: 875
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:06 pm

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Apr 02, 2021 9:04 pm

777luver wrote:
Air Transat and AC agreed to terminate takeover agreement after the European Comission made it evident that it wouldn't approve of the deal even if further concessions were made.

https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/a ... 88140.html

How much does this put Air Transat in deep toilet?
 
IADCA
Posts: 2412
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:24 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Apr 02, 2021 9:31 pm

777luver wrote:
IADCA wrote:
777luver wrote:

It's protectionism as well, AC/Transat would've had too many routes and even if they coughed up more to please the EU, it wouldn't have made any business sense which leads me to believe they would have had to give up A LOT.

I'm not sure about onex, maybe someone can jog my memory but was Onex ever even interested in Transat, pre covid? That Pierre guy seems interested but Transat like every other airline is a financial mess right now so maybe it will scare him off or was he just yelling into the air to be a savior and Swoop in the save Transat and be a hero?


It's not protectionism except as it relates to protecting EU consumers. It's an antitrust review and what they care about is price and availability to EU consumers, not impact on EU companies or squat all to do with Canada or with trade law. And frankly, I can't see any argument at all (at least pre-COVID and TS crumbling) that this didn't hurt consumers on certain EU-Canada routes, particularly to secondary destinations. The only question in the antitrust community was whether that harm to competition would be enough that they'd actually want to block the deal or would demand remedies that AC couldn't swallow.


What's the argument that such a deal would hurt consumers? Thanks for clarifying on the anti trust, I said protectionism because it protects the EU, not just airlines but that's a moot point


It eliminates a competitor on several major routes and there is insufficient possibility of new competitors realistically being able to enter and prevent prices going up, for one. Overall market share, for two: they combine to a 60% market share on Canada to Europe overall! That's...well, in antitrust law, that's a tall mountain to climb.

It also eliminates a likely potential competitor on many other routes. Basically, you'll be in antitrust trouble if you have any city pairs where it's only you two or you two and one other plus slot controls.

lesfalls wrote:
Why does this come under the power of EC? AA and US Airways didn't need the EC approval for their merger.


Yes they did. Here's the approval: https://ec.europa.eu/competition/merger ... 2259_2.pdf
 
Skywatcher
Posts: 981
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2002 11:19 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:09 pm

I'm really surprised that AT is still solvent. Hopefully they can raise some capital somewhere and remain viable. The odds of them collapsing just rose big time.
 
beechnut
Posts: 967
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 12:27 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:23 pm

alan3 wrote:
Guess we won't be seeing any AC A321's transatlantic after all!


Yet. There were credible rumours that AC was eying a possible 321LR order, instead of the deferred and now cancelled MAX 9 order.

Then the pandemic hit and that kiboshed any thoughts of new orders. But when it’s over, there may be renewed interest. And if AT fails, AC might be able to kick the tires of theirs. Like new, low mileage, one owner (lessee).

Meanwhile the MAX is quite capable of crossing the Pond from Eastern Canada. Even the 223 can theoretically do that and AC has sent A319s to the UK before. So until business picks up again AC might have just the right narrowbody fleet already.

But a 321LR or XLR in the future seems to me like a good possibility. AC likes its CEOs, I’m sure they’d like the LRs even more.

Beech
 
346fetish
Posts: 88
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:00 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:59 pm

Looks like AC loaded this over the weekend in response to WS' recent announcement:

YYZYMM 3x via 223 eff. 02JUN21
YOWYYJ 2x via 223 eff. 26JUN21
 
User avatar
YQBexYHZBGM
Posts: 295
Joined: Sun May 10, 2009 3:11 pm

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:46 pm

alexdelzotto wrote:
Makes for easy connections with MS onward to BEY.
A few flights a day between CAI and BEY and much better alternative to GVA.
If the flight was to take a delay in YUL, pax don't have to worry about having a schengen.

If I had a spare 787 at my disposal, I'd operate YUL-BEY and YUL-ATH nonstops, at least in the summer months. Same destinations from YHZ (or even with an enroute stop in YHZ for the YUL flights, if necessary). Given the substantial Lebanese and Greek populations in YUL and YHZ, I am certain these flights would do very well for Rouge.
 
runway23
Posts: 2427
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:12 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:14 pm

YQBexYHZBGM wrote:
alexdelzotto wrote:
Makes for easy connections with MS onward to BEY.
A few flights a day between CAI and BEY and much better alternative to GVA.
If the flight was to take a delay in YUL, pax don't have to worry about having a schengen.

If I had a spare 787 at my disposal, I'd operate YUL-BEY and YUL-ATH nonstops, at least in the summer months. Same destinations from YHZ (or even with an enroute stop in YHZ for the YUL flights, if necessary). Given the substantial Lebanese and Greek populations in YUL and YHZ, I am certain these flights would do very well for Rouge.


You know AC and TS fly YUL-ATH right ?

YUL-BEY good luck getting government approval for a non-stop flight. It's been tried before and failed.

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