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Thenoflyzone
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Sat Sep 04, 2021 4:36 am

krisyyz wrote:
Is there any movement on re-activating the 77L fleet? I think the winter schedule has some 77L’s on LHR, HKG and SYD routes, but they are still at VCV with no movement that I could see on FR24. Personally, I wouldn’t be surprised if they don’t ever come back, especially if there is cargo conversation program launched for the LRs. With one 77W leaving the fleet, the increased A333 fleet, and the recent comments from AC about the flexibility of the 787s doing ULH routes, does AC even need the 77Ls? Perhaps they could be sold back to Boeing for some more 787s?

KrisYYZ


They’re most likely coming back online soon. Maybe not all six though. There is no cargo conversion program for the B77L. Not enough passenger frames were built to make it worthwhile, unlike the B77Ws, which there are plenty of.

Yes, the B789 can operate pretty much any route in AC’s network today, but the 77L does have its uses. It can carry significantly more payload over the same distance (it can also fly significantly further with the same payload as the B789). If that extra payload can overcome the cost delta between the two frames, then it might be worthwhile using the B77L.

HKG and SYD are cargo heavy destinations. Would
make sense to use the 77L on those routes, if the plane can be filled, that is, above and below deck.
 
ramprat320
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Sat Sep 04, 2021 6:07 am

Based on the most recent pilot bid it appears the company intends to increase 777 flying soon, likely meaning the return of these frames to the active fleet.
 
9252fly
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Sat Sep 04, 2021 6:09 am

mach86 wrote:
krisyyz wrote:
Is there any movement on re-activating the 77L fleet? I think the winter schedule has some 77L’s on LHR, HKG and SYD routes, but they are still at VCV with no movement that I could see on FR24. Personally, I wouldn’t be surprised if they don’t ever come back, especially if there is cargo conversation program launched for the LRs. With one 77W leaving the fleet, the increased A333 fleet, and the recent comments from AC about the flexibility of the 787s doing ULH routes, does AC even need the 77Ls? Perhaps they could be sold back to Boeing for some more 787s?

KrisYYZ


Can you elaborate on the single 77W leaving the fleet? Hadn't heard this tidbit....


Lease expiry.
 
9252fly
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Sat Sep 04, 2021 6:20 am

ramprat320 wrote:
Based on the most recent pilot bid it appears the company intends to increase 777 flying soon, likely meaning the return of these frames to the active fleet.


I could see additional frames returning to service primarily for cargo, global supply chains will be a mess for the foreseeable future.
 
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CrewBunk
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Sat Sep 04, 2021 11:50 am

aristoenigma wrote:
In the eighties up to 1986 was there a time that Air Canada 747s competed directly with CP Air 747s and DC-10s on Vancouver to/from Toronto domestic service? Sorry if dumb question. Also I recall in those same days stories of Wardair deadheading empty 747s from Vancouver to Toronto. Incredible that four engines would be used in that way. Times have changed.

This makes sense as “Freedom to Move”, aka air deregulation in Canada, began in 1986.

Before that, with fixed fares, airlines competed with service and that all important bold faced type in the timetable, indicating wide body equipment was paramount. Air Canada with the 747, L1011 and 767 and Canadian Pacific with the 747 and DC-10. Wardair had an operation in both YYZ and YVR, so it often ferried empty DC-10s and 747s between the two as it was not allowed to carry domestic scheduled passengers.

With deregulation in 1986, a lot of that changed. With fares becoming all important, the market evolved to more efficient (but less comfortable) aircraft. A lot of younger folk on this site missed the era where North American carriers used service to compete. I remember when some North American airlines offered the best cabin service on the earth! A part of that was big, inefficient, but comfortable 4 engined wide body aircraft.

Hell, when I was a young lad, I flew from ORD-PHX on an American 747! (Replete with full hot meals and coach lounges with a piano).
 
YOWVIEWER
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Sat Sep 04, 2021 4:11 pm

I was on a CP Air 747 from Montreal to Toronto, 5PM departure in economy and was served duck a l'orange for dinner with all the trimmings. I was 12 yrs old at the time. Those were the days ! That was in 1969.
 
aristoenigma
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Sat Sep 04, 2021 5:44 pm

CrewBunk wrote:
aristoenigma wrote:
In the eighties up to 1986 was there a time that Air Canada 747s competed directly with CP Air 747s and DC-10s on Vancouver to/from Toronto domestic service? Sorry if dumb question. Also I recall in those same days stories of Wardair deadheading empty 747s from Vancouver to Toronto. Incredible that four engines would be used in that way. Times have changed.

This makes sense as “Freedom to Move”, aka air deregulation in Canada, began in 1986.

Before that, with fixed fares, airlines competed with service and that all important bold faced type in the timetable, indicating wide body equipment was paramount. Air Canada with the 747, L1011 and 767 and Canadian Pacific with the 747 and DC-10. Wardair had an operation in both YYZ and YVR, so it often ferried empty DC-10s and 747s between the two as it was not allowed to carry domestic scheduled passengers.

With deregulation in 1986, a lot of that changed. With fares becoming all important, the market evolved to more efficient (but less comfortable) aircraft. A lot of younger folk on this site missed the era where North American carriers used service to compete. I remember when some North American airlines offered the best cabin service on the earth! A part of that was big, inefficient, but comfortable 4 engined wide body aircraft.

Hell, when I was a young lad, I flew from ORD-PHX on an American 747! (Replete with full hot meals and coach lounges with a piano).


Thanks for posting this CrewBunk. I remember always combing through the timetables to try to book widebodies between Toronto and Vancouver in the early eighties. What I also remember is never being able to catch a ride with a 747 or L1011 of Air Canada on YYZ to YVR I had plenty of CP Air 747 (model 100 or 200?) rides replete with great dinners and after dinner drinks. I searched but cannot find Air Canada timetables for that time spam ( say 1981-1986) that show wide body AC flights were equally available. I also cannot recall ever being lucky enough to ever fly on an AC 747-100 or 747-200 or for that matter an L1011. Made me wonder if Air Canada chose to use other aircraft between YYZ and YVR for other reasons.
 
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CrewBunk
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Sat Sep 04, 2021 10:00 pm

YOWVIEWER wrote:
I was on a CP Air 747 from Montreal to Toronto, 5PM departure in economy and was served duck a l'orange for dinner with all the trimmings. I was 12 yrs old at the time. Those were the days ! That was in 1969.


In 1969, that would have been either a 727-100, 737-200 or DC-8-40/50/63.

The 747 did not join CP Air until the end of 1973. All 747-217Bs.
 
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CrewBunk
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Sat Sep 04, 2021 10:16 pm

aristoenigma wrote:
I remember always combing through the timetables to try to book widebodies between Toronto and Vancouver in the early eighties. What I also remember is never being able to catch a ride with a 747 or L1011 of Air Canada on YYZ to YVR I had plenty of CP Air 747 (model 100 or 200?) rides replete with great dinners and after dinner drinks. I searched but cannot find Air Canada timetables for that time spam ( say 1981-1986) that show wide body AC flights were equally available. I also cannot recall ever being lucky enough to ever fly on an AC 747-100 or 747-200 or for that matter an L1011. Made me wonder if Air Canada chose to use other aircraft between YYZ and YVR for other reasons.

In the very early 80s, there were three nonstops a day on AC between YVR and YYZ. A 747, L1011 and a DC-8-60. With the advent of the 767, that competitive wide body edge was satisfied with a more efficient aircraft. Toward the mid 1980s, the 747 was all but removed from domestic flying and replaced with both 767s and L1011s. (The DC-8 had been retired from passenger service).

By 1986, there were 4 nonstops a day YYZ-YVR, 2 L1011-1s, 1 L1011-500 and one 727-200.

BTW, CP Air’s 747s were -217Bs. Cool airplanes with water-meth takeoffs when heavy.
 
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CrewBunk
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Sat Sep 04, 2021 10:20 pm

Duplicate post in error.
 
aristoenigma
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Sat Sep 04, 2021 10:43 pm

CrewBunk wrote:
aristoenigma wrote:
I remember always combing through the timetables to try to book widebodies between Toronto and Vancouver in the early eighties. What I also remember is never being able to catch a ride with a 747 or L1011 of Air Canada on YYZ to YVR I had plenty of CP Air 747 (model 100 or 200?) rides replete with great dinners and after dinner drinks. I searched but cannot find Air Canada timetables for that time spam ( say 1981-1986) that show wide body AC flights were equally available. I also cannot recall ever being lucky enough to ever fly on an AC 747-100 or 747-200 or for that matter an L1011. Made me wonder if Air Canada chose to use other aircraft between YYZ and YVR for other reasons.

In the very early 80s, there were three nonstops a day on AC between YVR and YYZ. A 747, L1011 and a DC-8-60. With the advent of the 767, that competitive wide body edge was satisfied with a more efficient aircraft. Toward the mid 1980s, the 747 was all but removed from domestic flying and replaced with both 767s and L1011s. (The DC-8 had been retired from passenger service).

By 1986, there were 4 nonstops a day YYZ-YVR, 2 L1011-1s, 1 L1011-500 and one 727-200.

BTW, CP Air’s 747s were -217Bs. Cool airplanes with water-meth takeoffs when heavy.


Wow thanks again CrewBunk. Veritable treasure trove of AC info. In the early eighties when flying AC between YYZ and YVR I always kept my fingers crossed but only ever got a DC-8 and never a 747-100/200 or L-1011. When I finally scored an AC 747 flight from YVR to YYC it was a 747-400 in 2001.
 
matt
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Sun Sep 05, 2021 2:03 pm

ramprat320 wrote:
Based on the most recent pilot bid it appears the company intends to increase 777 flying soon, likely meaning the return of these frames to the active fleet.


Indeed. In the "tentative" schedule for Summer 2022, the 77L is slated for YYZ-YVR, YVR-SYD, YYZ-HKG, YYZ-FRA and YYC-FRA. Of course, this can change, but I, too, think they will remain in the fleet. Love the 77L.
 
Thomaas
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Sun Sep 05, 2021 2:42 pm

I very much doubt the 77L will be retired given the 25 767s they still haven't replaced the capacity of. Depending on the pace of recovery, they are likely already shopping for used A330s/77Ws. The narrow body fleet will also need additional frames after the A220/737MAX order cancellations and the retirement of Rouge A319s in the next few years.
 
runway23
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Sun Sep 05, 2021 11:24 pm

It's obviously still very early to talk about summer 2022, especially in a covid world where a month is similar to a year pre-pandemic, but the schedule currently loaded shows some interesting bits.

YUL-MRS/TLS/BOD, YOW-LHR/FRA, YVR-CDG not scheduled to return (or launch for TLS).
A daily YUL-LAX flight operated by 330 (on top of the 2 other daily 7M8s).
2x daily YUL-CDG with 77W 450 seater. YUL-FCO also sees a 450 seater, whereas YUL-ATH gets the standard 77W.
2x daily YUL-LHR with 789. 2x YVR-LHR with 788/789.
4x daily YYZ-LHR 333, 789, 2x 77W
77Ls showing on YYC-FRA,YYZ-FRA/HKG/YVR,YVR-SYD/YYZ
YUL/YYZ-BCN/OTP/VCE loaded as A330 operating.
DUB sees A330 from YVR, 789 from YYZ and 7M8 from YUL. YVR only sees A330 flying to YUL and DUB, the schedule doesn't fit right now with night stops or very long ground times, possibly a filing error.
 
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CrewBunk
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Mon Sep 06, 2021 12:24 am

A few more ….

YYZ-CPH, daily A330
YYZ-ZRH, daily 789
YYZ-CDG, daily 450 seat 777
YYZ-BRU, 5xweek, 788
YYZ-AMS, daily 400 seat 777
YUL-GVA, daily A330
YYZ-KEF, 4xweek, 7M8
YUL-KEF, 3xweek, 7M8
YYZ-DXB, 3xweek, 789
YYZ-DEL, daily 400 seat 777

Also, the US is back in a big way with 44 destinations nonstop from YYZ alone!
 
runway23
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Mon Sep 06, 2021 12:43 am

CrewBunk wrote:
A few more ….

YYZ-CPH, daily A330
YYZ-ZRH, daily 789
YYZ-CDG, daily 450 seat 777
YYZ-BRU, 5xweek, 788
YYZ-AMS, daily 400 seat 777
YUL-GVA, daily A330
YYZ-KEF, 4xweek, 7M8
YUL-KEF, 3xweek, 7M8
YYZ-DXB, 3xweek, 789
YYZ-DEL, daily 400 seat 777

Also, the US is back in a big way with 44 destinations nonstop from YYZ alone!


I was focusing on big changes. A couple of those on your list are currently operating (YYZ-ZRH/DXB/CDG,YUL-GVA all with 789s).

There's definitely a lot of capacity planned on domestics and cross border, hard to imagine the schedule for domestic/US isn't much else than a place holder at this point.

Right now, they have the 7M8s almost exclusively scheduled on trunk routes and 223s back onto secondary routes - it just feels weird because it's essentially back to how the aircraft should be used in normal times. Though many others (for example YUL-YYZ or even YYZ-YVR) have a relatively high number of 320/321s operating flights and probably just placeholders at this point.
 
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CrewBunk
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Mon Sep 06, 2021 12:50 am

Yes … the list for next summer is huge. Almost back to Summer 2019. (Which was reduced due to the 737 grounding).

I hope the forecasts hold true.
 
runway23
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Mon Sep 06, 2021 12:53 am

CrewBunk wrote:
Yes … the list for next summer is huge. Almost back to Summer 2019. (Which was reduced due to the 737 grounding).

I hope the forecasts hold true.


Indeed and the 25 RV 767s that are gone.
 
beechnut
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Mon Sep 06, 2021 1:00 am

aristoenigma wrote:

Wow thanks again CrewBunk. Veritable treasure trove of AC info. In the early eighties when flying AC between YYZ and YVR I always kept my fingers crossed but only ever got a DC-8 and never a 747-100/200 or L-1011. When I finally scored an AC 747 flight from YVR to YYC it was a 747-400 in 2001.


Back in that era I travelled a lot for business and pleasure. I flew from YUL, and sometimes YOW, and often connected in YYZ. Over the years, I flew:

YUL-YYC-YUL on the L1011
YUL-YVR on the 727 (AC) and 737 (CP)
YYZ-YUL on a packed AC 747-100. It was Grand Prix weekend at my home airport; my 2 colleagues and I got the three last seats, they had put on a 747 for that reason; it was my first ever 747 flight.
YOW-YVR-YOW on CP DC-8s (-63 outbound, short-body on the return, can't recall which series but it had the Palomar seats)
Lots of AC 767-200 flights
Wardair DC-10 and A310, to/from somewhere out West (forget exactly where now)
YYZ-YVR on an L1011-500 (beautiful aircraft, too bad they had such a short time at AC)

Plus a couple of UK trips on 747s (BA and AC, the latter ISTR were combis).

I've flown on every AC 747 variant, including the 400 combis to SEL and HKG.

Lotsa good trips that started with my first airplane flight on an AC Viscount in 1969 as an 11-y.o. kid.

Beech
 
Thomaas
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Mon Sep 06, 2021 1:54 am

CrewBunk wrote:
Yes … the list for next summer is huge. Almost back to Summer 2019. (Which was reduced due to the 737 grounding).

I hope the forecasts hold true.


Sad to see OPO, MRS, BOD, GLA, PRG, WAW and BER leave AC's network. Hopefully we'll see an expansion in long-haul flying in the next few years to reintroduce some of these destinations. I do wonder if there are big cuts to Asia flying to fund the additional European flying for Summer 2022. It is unlikely that 8 A330s (not even accounting the 6 mainline 767s retired since 2019) and one less 77W can sustain the TATL flying while maintaining the amount of transpacific flights.
 
beechnut
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:44 pm

Thomaas wrote:
CrewBunk wrote:
Yes … the list for next summer is huge. Almost back to Summer 2019. (Which was reduced due to the 737 grounding).

I hope the forecasts hold true.


Sad to see OPO, MRS, BOD, GLA, PRG, WAW and BER leave AC's network. Hopefully we'll see an expansion in long-haul flying in the next few years to reintroduce some of these destinations. I do wonder if there are big cuts to Asia flying to fund the additional European flying for Summer 2022. It is unlikely that 8 A330s (not even accounting the 6 mainline 767s retired since 2019) and one less 77W can sustain the TATL flying while maintaining the amount of transpacific flights.


Eight 333s? They have 17 currently in the fleet! Some are "pandemic parked", but all can be pulled back into service.

Beech
 
Thomaas
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:06 pm

beechnut wrote:
Thomaas wrote:
CrewBunk wrote:
Yes … the list for next summer is huge. Almost back to Summer 2019. (Which was reduced due to the 737 grounding).

I hope the forecasts hold true.


Sad to see OPO, MRS, BOD, GLA, PRG, WAW and BER leave AC's network. Hopefully we'll see an expansion in long-haul flying in the next few years to reintroduce some of these destinations. I do wonder if there are big cuts to Asia flying to fund the additional European flying for Summer 2022. It is unlikely that 8 A330s (not even accounting the 6 mainline 767s retired since 2019) and one less 77W can sustain the TATL flying while maintaining the amount of transpacific flights.


Eight 333s? They have 17 currently in the fleet! Some are "pandemic parked", but all can be pulled back into service.

Beech


I meant that they only added 8 A330s over the last 2 years, which isn't enough to take over most of the flying from 25 Rouge 767s.
 
Whiteguy
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:10 pm

Thomaas wrote:
beechnut wrote:
Thomaas wrote:

Sad to see OPO, MRS, BOD, GLA, PRG, WAW and BER leave AC's network. Hopefully we'll see an expansion in long-haul flying in the next few years to reintroduce some of these destinations. I do wonder if there are big cuts to Asia flying to fund the additional European flying for Summer 2022. It is unlikely that 8 A330s (not even accounting the 6 mainline 767s retired since 2019) and one less 77W can sustain the TATL flying while maintaining the amount of transpacific flights.


Eight 333s? They have 17 currently in the fleet! Some are "pandemic parked", but all can be pulled back into service.

Beech


I meant that they only added 8 A330s over the last 2 years, which isn't enough to take over most of the flying from 25 Rouge 767s.


Some of the Rouge 767 flying will also be taken over with the MAX fleet.
 
Thomaas
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Mon Sep 06, 2021 8:18 pm

Whiteguy wrote:
Thomaas wrote:
beechnut wrote:

Eight 333s? They have 17 currently in the fleet! Some are "pandemic parked", but all can be pulled back into service.

Beech


I meant that they only added 8 A330s over the last 2 years, which isn't enough to take over most of the flying from 25 Rouge 767s.


Some of the Rouge 767 flying will also be taken over with the MAX fleet.


That is still a massive capacity downgrade, and so far only YUL/YYZ-KEF and YYZ-EDI are part of this. The following routes have been taken over without a corresponding widebody fleet being increased (+8 A330s, +1 789, -6 767s and -1 77W as opposed to 2019)

YYZ/YUL-LIS/BCN/VCE/OTP/ATH/BOG
YYZ-MAN/BUD/LIM
YUL-ALG

Just looking at YYZ-VCE (used to be daily) and YUL-VCE (up to 5x weekly) are now both operating twice a week for summer ‘22. Tough choices are being made with the existing fleet, but if the recovery persists it is unlikely AC would just send the traffic it previously flew to other airlines.
 
9252fly
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Mon Sep 06, 2021 8:34 pm

Thomaas wrote:
Whiteguy wrote:
Thomaas wrote:

I meant that they only added 8 A330s over the last 2 years, which isn't enough to take over most of the flying from 25 Rouge 767s.


Some of the Rouge 767 flying will also be taken over with the MAX fleet.


That is still a massive capacity downgrade, and so far only YUL/YYZ-KEF and YYZ-EDI are part of this. The following routes have been taken over without a corresponding widebody fleet being increased (+8 A330s, +1 789, -6 767s and -1 77W as opposed to 2019)

YYZ/YUL-LIS/BCN/VCE/OTP/ATH/BOG
YYZ-MAN/BUD/LIM
YUL-ALG

Just looking at YYZ-VCE (used to be daily) and YUL-VCE (up to 5x weekly) are now both operating twice a week for summer ‘22. Tough choices are being made with the existing fleet, but if the recovery persists it is unlikely AC would just send the traffic it previously flew to other airlines.


If AC has chosen not to operate, or reduced a number of pre-Covid routes in the summer '22 schedule, could it be that they made the the determination based on analyzing what they deem to be the demand and profitability of the routes in question? It's not like there is a shortage of A330s available for lease at rates likely lower than the one's acquired from TP and SQ.There seems to be this weird fixation that AC will be short of aircraft for the summer '22.
 
runway23
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Tue Sep 07, 2021 12:22 am

Thomaas wrote:
Whiteguy wrote:
Thomaas wrote:

I meant that they only added 8 A330s over the last 2 years, which isn't enough to take over most of the flying from 25 Rouge 767s.


Some of the Rouge 767 flying will also be taken over with the MAX fleet.


That is still a massive capacity downgrade, and so far only YUL/YYZ-KEF and YYZ-EDI are part of this. The following routes have been taken over without a corresponding widebody fleet being increased (+8 A330s, +1 789, -6 767s and -1 77W as opposed to 2019)

YYZ/YUL-LIS/BCN/VCE/OTP/ATH/BOG
YYZ-MAN/BUD/LIM
YUL-ALG

Just looking at YYZ-VCE (used to be daily) and YUL-VCE (up to 5x weekly) are now both operating twice a week for summer ‘22. Tough choices are being made with the existing fleet, but if the recovery persists it is unlikely AC would just send the traffic it previously flew to other airlines.


A few ethnic new routes have been added YYZ-DOH,YUL-CAI/DEL. They are operated at fairly low frequencies just like most of what has resumed/operates. Even a major route such as YYZ-LHR is 9x weekly right now, very far from the 28x weekly flights currently loaded for next summer.

AC is betting on ethnic traffic a lot more than tourism - VCE is the perfect example of a route that lives off of mass tourism. Is it a clue that AC believes tourism won't be bouncing back or just skepticism that cruise traffic won't come back.

I wouldn't be surprised if we see more ethnic routes or ones that feed ethnic bound traffic come online next year. With covid, people tend to be that much more flexible to fly a direct route, even if it operates 3x weekly instead of daily and they have to fly a day earlier or later, just to avoid a transit.

Other than some major cities (LHR, CDG) or hubs (FRA) it's difficult to currently make a case for daily flights. The fact that for example YYZ-MUC can't operate at more than 3x weekly right now, despite hubs on both ends, is a perfect example of how much demand continues to be depressed. September is supposed to be a good month, yet it is operating fewer flights than what used to be the weakest month pre-pandemic.

To think that things will magically or instantly rebound to or close to 2019 levels and believe that AC will be missing widebody aircraft seems way too optimistic at this point.
 
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b777900
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Tue Sep 07, 2021 12:38 am

AIR Canada ever returning to DCA?
 
runway23
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Tue Sep 07, 2021 12:47 am

b777900 wrote:
AIR Canada ever returning to DCA?


Resumes tomorrow.
 
alexdelzotto
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Tue Sep 07, 2021 12:50 am

YUL-SEA was also added for summer 2022. A route that had never started because of the pandemic.
Was quietly added along with SAN from YUL.

Loaded as daily A220.
 
matt
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Tue Sep 07, 2021 1:49 am

runway23 wrote:
Thomaas wrote:
Whiteguy wrote:

Some of the Rouge 767 flying will also be taken over with the MAX fleet.


That is still a massive capacity downgrade, and so far only YUL/YYZ-KEF and YYZ-EDI are part of this. The following routes have been taken over without a corresponding widebody fleet being increased (+8 A330s, +1 789, -6 767s and -1 77W as opposed to 2019)

YYZ/YUL-LIS/BCN/VCE/OTP/ATH/BOG
YYZ-MAN/BUD/LIM
YUL-ALG

Just looking at YYZ-VCE (used to be daily) and YUL-VCE (up to 5x weekly) are now both operating twice a week for summer ‘22. Tough choices are being made with the existing fleet, but if the recovery persists it is unlikely AC would just send the traffic it previously flew to other airlines.


A few ethnic new routes have been added YYZ-DOH,YUL-CAI/DEL. They are operated at fairly low frequencies just like most of what has resumed/operates. Even a major route such as YYZ-LHR is 9x weekly right now, very far from the 28x weekly flights currently loaded for next summer.

AC is betting on ethnic traffic a lot more than tourism - VCE is the perfect example of a route that lives off of mass tourism. Is it a clue that AC believes tourism won't be bouncing back or just skepticism that cruise traffic won't come back.

I wouldn't be surprised if we see more ethnic routes or ones that feed ethnic bound traffic come online next year. With covid, people tend to be that much more flexible to fly a direct route, even if it operates 3x weekly instead of daily and they have to fly a day earlier or later, just to avoid a transit.

Other than some major cities (LHR, CDG) or hubs (FRA) it's difficult to currently make a case for daily flights. The fact that for example YYZ-MUC can't operate at more than 3x weekly right now, despite hubs on both ends, is a perfect example of how much demand continues to be depressed. September is supposed to be a good month, yet it is operating fewer flights than what used to be the weakest month pre-pandemic.

To think that things will magically or instantly rebound to or close to 2019 levels and believe that AC will be missing widebody aircraft seems way too optimistic at this point.


Just wondering what you mean by “ethnic travel/routes”? Do you mean VFR (visiting friends and relatives)? If so, I can see the rationale for DEL, but not for DOH…
 
runway23
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:07 am

matt wrote:
Just wondering what you mean by “ethnic travel/routes”? Do you mean VFR (visiting friends and relatives)? If so, I can see the rationale for DEL, but not for DOH…


Indeed VFR, ethnic, emigrating... all basically the same category.

DOH fits the bill because AC codeshares and interlines with QR. Basically opens deep South Asia, East Africa connections. It also helps QR who has maxed out their Canadian rights by flying to YUL daily.

I could imagine somewhere down the road AC might be tempted to try a similar set up from YVR. Potentially AC could also try YUL or YVR-DXB if they can come to an agreement with EK and have an appetite for more of those types of routes.
 
9252fly
Posts: 1213
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:09 am

matt wrote:
runway23 wrote:
Thomaas wrote:

That is still a massive capacity downgrade, and so far only YUL/YYZ-KEF and YYZ-EDI are part of this. The following routes have been taken over without a corresponding widebody fleet being increased (+8 A330s, +1 789, -6 767s and -1 77W as opposed to 2019)

YYZ/YUL-LIS/BCN/VCE/OTP/ATH/BOG
YYZ-MAN/BUD/LIM
YUL-ALG

Just looking at YYZ-VCE (used to be daily) and YUL-VCE (up to 5x weekly) are now both operating twice a week for summer ‘22. Tough choices are being made with the existing fleet, but if the recovery persists it is unlikely AC would just send the traffic it previously flew to other airlines.


A few ethnic new routes have been added YYZ-DOH,YUL-CAI/DEL. They are operated at fairly low frequencies just like most of what has resumed/operates. Even a major route such as YYZ-LHR is 9x weekly right now, very far from the 28x weekly flights currently loaded for next summer.

AC is betting on ethnic traffic a lot more than tourism - VCE is the perfect example of a route that lives off of mass tourism. Is it a clue that AC believes tourism won't be bouncing back or just skepticism that cruise traffic won't come back.

I wouldn't be surprised if we see more ethnic routes or ones that feed ethnic bound traffic come online next year. With covid, people tend to be that much more flexible to fly a direct route, even if it operates 3x weekly instead of daily and they have to fly a day earlier or later, just to avoid a transit.

Other than some major cities (LHR, CDG) or hubs (FRA) it's difficult to currently make a case for daily flights. The fact that for example YYZ-MUC can't operate at more than 3x weekly right now, despite hubs on both ends, is a perfect example of how much demand continues to be depressed. September is supposed to be a good month, yet it is operating fewer flights than what used to be the weakest month pre-pandemic.

To think that things will magically or instantly rebound to or close to 2019 levels and believe that AC will be missing widebody aircraft seems way too optimistic at this point.


Just wondering what you mean by “ethnic travel/routes”? Do you mean VFR (visiting friends and relatives)? If so, I can see the rationale for DEL, but not for DOH…


AC has a chummy relationship with QR at DOH. The connection possibilities are endless.
 
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Aresxerexade
Posts: 64
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Tue Sep 07, 2021 4:46 am

runway23 wrote:
matt wrote:
Just wondering what you mean by “ethnic travel/routes”? Do you mean VFR (visiting friends and relatives)? If so, I can see the rationale for DEL, but not for DOH…


Indeed VFR, ethnic, emigrating... all basically the same category.

DOH fits the bill because AC codeshares and interlines with QR. Basically opens deep South Asia, East Africa connections. It also helps QR who has maxed out their Canadian rights by flying to YUL daily.

I could imagine somewhere down the road AC might be tempted to try a similar set up from YVR. Potentially AC could also try YUL or YVR-DXB if they can come to an agreement with EK and have an appetite for more of those types of routes.


EK has a relationship with WS already for years. I think AC is focused more with QR .
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Thu Sep 09, 2021 5:31 am

Curious: does YVR-EWR have a resumption date yet?
 
9252fly
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Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2005 7:19 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Thu Sep 09, 2021 11:52 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
Curious: does YVR-EWR have a resumption date yet?


I think it got canned. Like a lot of routes and frequencies these days, they are put up for sale as a sort of fishing expedition to see how many bites they get. I'll leave the rest to your imagination.
 
Dominion301
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:36 pm

runway23 wrote:
It's obviously still very early to talk about summer 2022, especially in a covid world where a month is similar to a year pre-pandemic, but the schedule currently loaded shows some interesting bits.

YUL-MRS/TLS/BOD, YOW-LHR/FRA, YVR-CDG not scheduled to return (or launch for TLS).


YYT-LHR is also not operating in 2022. Given the slots obviously being moved to YUL & YVR on 787s, I wonder if the plan is for those to come back in 2023 with YUL & YVR then reverting to single daily 77Ws to maintain capacity?
 
Thomaas
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Thu Sep 09, 2021 1:44 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
Curious: does YVR-EWR have a resumption date yet?


Daily 788 from November 1st
 
Whiteguy
Posts: 1682
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2003 6:11 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:31 pm

Thomaas wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
Curious: does YVR-EWR have a resumption date yet?


Daily 788 from November 1st


Oct 31st…
 
9252fly
Posts: 1213
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2005 7:19 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:38 pm

Whiteguy wrote:
Thomaas wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
Curious: does YVR-EWR have a resumption date yet?


Daily 788 from November 1st


Oct 31st…


Until recently it was Sep 7th, then Oct 1st, the route has potential but it seems to be a struggle getting sufficient traction on near term bookings.
 
runway23
Posts: 2416
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:12 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Thu Sep 09, 2021 7:05 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
runway23 wrote:
It's obviously still very early to talk about summer 2022, especially in a covid world where a month is similar to a year pre-pandemic, but the schedule currently loaded shows some interesting bits.

YUL-MRS/TLS/BOD, YOW-LHR/FRA, YVR-CDG not scheduled to return (or launch for TLS).


YYT-LHR is also not operating in 2022. Given the slots obviously being moved to YUL & YVR on 787s, I wonder if the plan is for those to come back in 2023 with YUL & YVR then reverting to single daily 77Ws to maintain capacity?


AC has scheduled YYT-YHZ to connect very well with YHZ-LHR in both directions.

S22 LHR is complicated to decipher at this point for any airline. Until a waiver is announced, airlines will schedule their slots at 2019 levels. If there isn't a waiver then I'd imagine many will be using only 80% of their slots next summer unless there's a big bounce in demand or cargo requirements.
 
stratable
Posts: 67
Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:22 pm

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:18 am

krisyyz wrote:
Is there any movement on re-activating the 77L fleet? I think the winter schedule has some 77L’s on LHR, HKG and SYD routes, but they are still at VCV with no movement that I could see on FR24. Personally, I wouldn’t be surprised if they don’t ever come back, especially if there is cargo conversation program launched for the LRs. With one 77W leaving the fleet, the increased A333 fleet, and the recent comments from AC about the flexibility of the 787s doing ULH routes, does AC even need the 77Ls? Perhaps they could be sold back to Boeing for some more 787s?

KrisYYZ



I have a flight booked YYZ - FRA next year in June currently listed as 77L. Obviously a lot can happen until then and they usually fly the 450-seat 77W on that route. But it seems like they're still planning on using them for now.
 
AA100
Posts: 134
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2015 10:57 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:05 am

runway23 wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
runway23 wrote:
It's obviously still very early to talk about summer 2022, especially in a covid world where a month is similar to a year pre-pandemic, but the schedule currently loaded shows some interesting bits.

YUL-MRS/TLS/BOD, YOW-LHR/FRA, YVR-CDG not scheduled to return (or launch for TLS).


YYT-LHR is also not operating in 2022. Given the slots obviously being moved to YUL & YVR on 787s, I wonder if the plan is for those to come back in 2023 with YUL & YVR then reverting to single daily 77Ws to maintain capacity?


AC has scheduled YYT-YHZ to connect very well with YHZ-LHR in both directions.

S22 LHR is complicated to decipher at this point for any airline. Until a waiver is announced, airlines will schedule their slots at 2019 levels. If there isn't a waiver then I'd imagine many will be using only 80% of their slots next summer unless there's a big bounce in demand or cargo requirements.


What equipment is YHZ-LHR being flown with for S22?
 
9252fly
Posts: 1213
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2005 7:19 am

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:56 am

AA100 wrote:
runway23 wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:

YYT-LHR is also not operating in 2022. Given the slots obviously being moved to YUL & YVR on 787s, I wonder if the plan is for those to come back in 2023 with YUL & YVR then reverting to single daily 77Ws to maintain capacity?


AC has scheduled YYT-YHZ to connect very well with YHZ-LHR in both directions.

S22 LHR is complicated to decipher at this point for any airline. Until a waiver is announced, airlines will schedule their slots at 2019 levels. If there isn't a waiver then I'd imagine many will be using only 80% of their slots next summer unless there's a big bounce in demand or cargo requirements.


What equipment is YHZ-LHR being flown with for S22?


Not surprisingly a B7M8. Everything subject to change of course.
 
EdmFlyBoi
Posts: 65
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:38 am

Thenoflyzone wrote:
There is no cargo conversion program for the B77L. Not enough passenger frames were built to make it worthwhile, unlike the B77Ws, which there are plenty of.


Actually there are 2 conversion programs - IAI and Mammoth (just announced).
 
Thenoflyzone
Posts: 3143
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Sep 10, 2021 3:06 pm

From what I know, IAI conversion is solely for B77W.

I see Mammoth will in fact start a B77L P2F. They still have a lot of work to do in order to get approval. They must think the ROI will be worth it. That's debatable, considering there are only 61 B77L's built. They got their hands on the 10 ex.DL frames, so that's a start. They're aiming for STC approval in the second half of 2023. That's in 2 years, at the earliest, if all goes to plan. The cargo ops market might cool down by then, as passenger widebody flights pick up pace. Cargo ops are feast or famine. Right now, it's a feast. Might not stay that way in two years.

runway23 wrote:

S22 LHR is complicated to decipher at this point for any airline. Until a waiver is announced, airlines will schedule their slots at 2019 levels. If there isn't a waiver then I'd imagine many will be using only 80% of their slots next summer unless there's a big bounce in demand or cargo requirements.


:checkmark:

Everything to LHR for S22 is just a placeholder at this point. Very good chance neither YHZ nor YOW get LHR service next year. AC's priority right now is to get the 3 main hubs up and running at full throttle. And they are still far from that goal.
 
ramprat320
Posts: 51
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2015 8:17 pm

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Sep 10, 2021 9:11 pm

Looks as though all Canada to Hong Kong non-stops for Air Canada (both pax and cargo) are about to receive a technical stop in ICN. The stop will be to facilitate a crew change so as to avoid crews having to layover in HKG. The change will take effect by September 13th.
 
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CrewBunk
Posts: 281
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Sep 10, 2021 11:19 pm

ramprat320 wrote:
Looks as though all Canada to Hong Kong non-stops for Air Canada (both pax and cargo) are about to receive a technical stop in ICN. The stop will be to facilitate a crew change so as to avoid crews having to layover in HKG. The change will take effect by September 13th.

Are you sure about that?

The pilot pairings show a nonstop operated both ways. Passenger services to HKG resumes on September 20.
 
ramprat320
Posts: 51
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2015 8:17 pm

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Sat Sep 11, 2021 12:48 am

Yes things have changed rapidly. There may have been an issue yesterday with an arrival Covid rest resulting in a crew being detained and sent to “camp”.
 
Dominion301
Posts: 3041
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Sun Sep 12, 2021 6:53 pm

Thenoflyzone wrote:
From what I know, IAI conversion is solely for B77W.

I see Mammoth will in fact start a B77L P2F. They still have a lot of work to do in order to get approval. They must think the ROI will be worth it. That's debatable, considering there are only 61 B77L's built. They got their hands on the 10 ex.DL frames, so that's a start. They're aiming for STC approval in the second half of 2023. That's in 2 years, at the earliest, if all goes to plan. The cargo ops market might cool down by then, as passenger widebody flights pick up pace. Cargo ops are feast or famine. Right now, it's a feast. Might not stay that way in two years.

runway23 wrote:

S22 LHR is complicated to decipher at this point for any airline. Until a waiver is announced, airlines will schedule their slots at 2019 levels. If there isn't a waiver then I'd imagine many will be using only 80% of their slots next summer unless there's a big bounce in demand or cargo requirements.


:checkmark:

Everything to LHR for S22 is just a placeholder at this point. Very good chance neither YHZ nor YOW get LHR service next year. AC's priority right now is to get the 3 main hubs up and running at full throttle. And they are still far from that goal.


YOW is a 0% chance for next year given it was pulled months ago along with YYT. YHZ is better than 50/50. YHZ at this point will have more Europe capacity than pre-pandemic. That seems rather unsustainable given all the hubs will still be nowhere near 2019 capacity in summer 2022…even if everything loaded today for next summer does in fact operate.
It’s pretty obvious for YOW’s zero transatlantic service in 2022 that AC (and LH?) are waiting for government J class traffic to return, which is still non-existent. Otherwise YOW-LHR would have been downgauged to a leisurely 7M8 like YHZ instead of transferring the slot.
 
codyul
Posts: 166
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Re: Air Canada News And Discussion Thread - 2021

Tue Sep 28, 2021 12:31 pm

Yesterday in the restarting India press release, AC announced the start of YUL-DEL It's in the system for October 31

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