Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
codyul wrote:Apparently last night was the last ever rev flight on mainline 319. Sad. Bye baby bus
(Jetz excluded)
9252fly wrote:codyul wrote:Apparently last night was the last ever rev flight on mainline 319. Sad. Bye baby bus
(Jetz excluded)
How many Jetz A319s are still in the fleet? I'm also curious as to what remains of the A320 fleet?
ramprat320 wrote:...and only 6 321s left on property with the balance parked in the desert
9252fly wrote:What would the Rouge fleet likely comprise of once things start to recover into the ' New Normal ' ? They have quite a large number of A321s,A320s and A319s. I have the impression that the B763s are done with a few being converted into freighters.
CFM565A1 wrote:One mainline 319 was converted to Jetz to increase their fleet. All the 8 A320-214s will not be retiring anytime soon as well as all A321s. They are on a rotation of fly and store to save/spread cycles. The A321s still have a future in Air Canada's fleet for when demand returns.
9252fly wrote:CFM565A1 wrote:One mainline 319 was converted to Jetz to increase their fleet. All the 8 A320-214s will not be retiring anytime soon as well as all A321s. They are on a rotation of fly and store to save/spread cycles. The A321s still have a future in Air Canada's fleet for when demand returns.
Are those 8 320s likely to end up at Rouge, leaving mainline with B78Ms, A223s, A321s and the A319s configured for Jetz?
krisyyz wrote:AC Rouge still has 763 flights bookable, for example YYZ-BUD in June. Given the clear fate of the B763 fleet, I’m surprised AC hasn’t updated the schedule. I doubt the 38M could do that flight, the A321XL may.
KrisYYZ
krisyyz wrote:AC Rouge still has 763 flights bookable, for example YYZ-BUD in June. Given the clear fate of the B763 fleet, I’m surprised AC hasn’t updated the schedule. I doubt the 38M could do that flight, the A321XL may.
KrisYYZ
ramprat320 wrote:Further cuts and closures being announced today;
U.S. route suspensions:
Toronto to: Fort Myers (Feb. 14), Boston (Feb. 16), Washington-Reagan (Feb. 17), Denver (Feb. 17) and LaGuardia (Feb. 17)
Montreal to: Boston (Feb. 17), LaGuardia (Feb. 17)
Vancouver to: Seattle (Feb 16)
U.S. station closures:
Boston
Denver
LaGuardia
Seattle
Fort Myers
Washington-Reagan
International route suspensions:
Toronto to: Bogotá (Feb. 16), Dublin (Feb. 12), Dubai (start-up postponed), São Paulo (Feb. 16), Hong Kong (start-up postponed), Tel Aviv (continued suspension)
Montreal to: Bogotá (Feb. 13)
Vancouver to: London (Feb. 14), Narita (Feb. 15)
International station closures (While we are also temporarily suspending passenger flights to/from the stations below, Cargo-only operations will continue, with schedules to follow as soon as possible):
Bogota
Dublin
Sao Paulo
Tokyo-Narita
Tel Aviv
oceanbeat wrote:ramprat320 wrote:Further cuts and closures being announced today;
U.S. route suspensions:
Toronto to: Fort Myers (Feb. 14), Boston (Feb. 16), Washington-Reagan (Feb. 17), Denver (Feb. 17) and LaGuardia (Feb. 17)
Montreal to: Boston (Feb. 17), LaGuardia (Feb. 17)
Vancouver to: Seattle (Feb 16)
U.S. station closures:
Boston
Denver
LaGuardia
Seattle
Fort Myers
Washington-Reagan
International route suspensions:
Toronto to: Bogotá (Feb. 16), Dublin (Feb. 12), Dubai (start-up postponed), São Paulo (Feb. 16), Hong Kong (start-up postponed), Tel Aviv (continued suspension)
Montreal to: Bogotá (Feb. 13)
Vancouver to: London (Feb. 14), Narita (Feb. 15)
International station closures (While we are also temporarily suspending passenger flights to/from the stations below, Cargo-only operations will continue, with schedules to follow as soon as possible):
Bogota
Dublin
Sao Paulo
Tokyo-Narita
Tel Aviv
thanks for the info, do you have a source? most of them are still loaded in the reservation systems.
ramprat320 wrote:Further cuts and closures being announced today;
U.S. route suspensions:
Toronto to: Fort Myers (Feb. 14), Boston (Feb. 16), Washington-Reagan (Feb. 17), Denver (Feb. 17) and LaGuardia (Feb. 17)
Montreal to: Boston (Feb. 17), LaGuardia (Feb. 17)
Vancouver to: Seattle (Feb 16)
U.S. station closures:
Boston
Denver
LaGuardia
Seattle
Fort Myers
Washington-Reagan
International route suspensions:
Toronto to: Bogotá (Feb. 16), Dublin (Feb. 12), Dubai (start-up postponed), São Paulo (Feb. 16), Hong Kong (start-up postponed), Tel Aviv (continued suspension)
Montreal to: Bogotá (Feb. 13)
Vancouver to: London (Feb. 14), Narita (Feb. 15)
International station closures (While we are also temporarily suspending passenger flights to/from the stations below, Cargo-only operations will continue, with schedules to follow as soon as possible):
Bogota
Dublin
Sao Paulo
Tokyo-Narita
Tel Aviv
Whiteguy wrote:ramprat320 wrote:Further cuts and closures being announced today;
U.S. route suspensions:
Toronto to: Fort Myers (Feb. 14), Boston (Feb. 16), Washington-Reagan (Feb. 17), Denver (Feb. 17) and LaGuardia (Feb. 17)
Montreal to: Boston (Feb. 17), LaGuardia (Feb. 17)
Vancouver to: Seattle (Feb 16)
U.S. station closures:
Boston
Denver
LaGuardia
Seattle
Fort Myers
Washington-Reagan
International route suspensions:
Toronto to: Bogotá (Feb. 16), Dublin (Feb. 12), Dubai (start-up postponed), São Paulo (Feb. 16), Hong Kong (start-up postponed), Tel Aviv (continued suspension)
Montreal to: Bogotá (Feb. 13)
Vancouver to: London (Feb. 14), Narita (Feb. 15)
International station closures (While we are also temporarily suspending passenger flights to/from the stations below, Cargo-only operations will continue, with schedules to follow as soon as possible):
Bogota
Dublin
Sao Paulo
Tokyo-Narita
Tel Aviv
And sadly many of those routes will still be operated by other airlines.....
777luver wrote:Whiteguy wrote:ramprat320 wrote:Further cuts and closures being announced today;
U.S. route suspensions:
Toronto to: Fort Myers (Feb. 14), Boston (Feb. 16), Washington-Reagan (Feb. 17), Denver (Feb. 17) and LaGuardia (Feb. 17)
Montreal to: Boston (Feb. 17), LaGuardia (Feb. 17)
Vancouver to: Seattle (Feb 16)
U.S. station closures:
Boston
Denver
LaGuardia
Seattle
Fort Myers
Washington-Reagan
International route suspensions:
Toronto to: Bogotá (Feb. 16), Dublin (Feb. 12), Dubai (start-up postponed), São Paulo (Feb. 16), Hong Kong (start-up postponed), Tel Aviv (continued suspension)
Montreal to: Bogotá (Feb. 13)
Vancouver to: London (Feb. 14), Narita (Feb. 15)
International station closures (While we are also temporarily suspending passenger flights to/from the stations below, Cargo-only operations will continue, with schedules to follow as soon as possible):
Bogota
Dublin
Sao Paulo
Tokyo-Narita
Tel Aviv
And sadly many of those routes will still be operated by other airlines.....
Absolutely. If we thought it was dire before, ha it's very very serious for our industry now, with no federal aid in sight at all
beechnut wrote:Are any MAX back in service yet? I seem to recall Feb 1st was the date they'd be back.
Beech
beechnut wrote:Are any MAX back in service yet? I seem to recall Feb 1st was the date they'd be back.
Beech
beechnut wrote:Are any MAX back in service yet? I seem to recall Feb 1st was the date they'd be back.
Beech
hoons90 wrote:Interesting that ICN will still get pax ops and not TYO.
crosscheckyyz wrote:hoons90 wrote:Interesting that ICN will still get pax ops and not TYO.
You think it has to do with AC using ICN as a crew stopover for the AC2283 YYZ-ICN-PVG (I believe its the pax AC being used for critical cargo/pandemic related) that's been operating daily?
multimark wrote:
Honestly why the government is choosing this $2.3 billion hill to die on, after handing out hundreds of billions in various aid programs is baffling. Just give the aid to airlines and let them refund the public.
ElPistolero wrote:multimark wrote:
Honestly why the government is choosing this $2.3 billion hill to die on, after handing out hundreds of billions in various aid programs is baffling. Just give the aid to airlines and let them refund the public.
The answer is fairly simple:
$X billion in unrefunded airfares = $X billion interest-free loan from consumers. If/when any of these airlines have to pay it back, they’re only liable for $X billion, not $X billion + interest (pending lawsuits).
Government loans wont be interest-free. Nor should they be; it’s not in the taxpayer interest.
Frankly, this “public” debate seems to be little more than theatrics. Having consumers cough up an interest-free loan outside the mechanisms of government aid, under the guise of “airline tariffs” written by airlines, suits both the government and the airlines. No other way to explain 11 months of ...nothing for consumers.
As they mentioned in that parliament thing, all of this is based on a CTA “order”. I’m sure it’s just pure coincidence that it’s worked out this way in Canada, eh?
L10115 wrote:ElPistolero wrote:multimark wrote:
Honestly why the government is choosing this $2.3 billion hill to die on, after handing out hundreds of billions in various aid programs is baffling. Just give the aid to airlines and let them refund the public.
The answer is fairly simple:
$X billion in unrefunded airfares = $X billion interest-free loan from consumers. If/when any of these airlines have to pay it back, they’re only liable for $X billion, not $X billion + interest (pending lawsuits).
Government loans wont be interest-free. Nor should they be; it’s not in the taxpayer interest.
Frankly, this “public” debate seems to be little more than theatrics. Having consumers cough up an interest-free loan outside the mechanisms of government aid, under the guise of “airline tariffs” written by airlines, suits both the government and the airlines. No other way to explain 11 months of ...nothing for consumers.
As they mentioned in that parliament thing, all of this is based on a CTA “order”. I’m sure it’s just pure coincidence that it’s worked out this way in Canada, eh?
Is the Money Not held in Trust? So your saying the Airlines use the interest right away?
Polot wrote:L10115 wrote:ElPistolero wrote:
The answer is fairly simple:
$X billion in unrefunded airfares = $X billion interest-free loan from consumers. If/when any of these airlines have to pay it back, they’re only liable for $X billion, not $X billion + interest (pending lawsuits).
Government loans wont be interest-free. Nor should they be; it’s not in the taxpayer interest.
Frankly, this “public” debate seems to be little more than theatrics. Having consumers cough up an interest-free loan outside the mechanisms of government aid, under the guise of “airline tariffs” written by airlines, suits both the government and the airlines. No other way to explain 11 months of ...nothing for consumers.
As they mentioned in that parliament thing, all of this is based on a CTA “order”. I’m sure it’s just pure coincidence that it’s worked out this way in Canada, eh?
Is the Money Not held in Trust? So your saying the Airlines use the interest right away?
No, money you pay ahead of time is not held in trust until the time of the flight. That’s why airlines worldwide were dragging their feet or outright suspending refunds until they got financial aid when covid hit. They couldn’t afford to refund everyone their money.
There are some exceptions to this. I believe the US requires charters to hold the money in trust until the flight. This isn’t the case with scheduled flights though.
YULACYYZ wrote:Is the Money Not held in Trust? So your saying the Airlines use the interest right away?
No, money you pay ahead of time is not held in trust until the time of the flight. That’s why airlines worldwide were dragging their feet or outright suspending refunds until they got financial aid when covid hit. They couldn’t afford to refund everyone their money.
There are some exceptions to this. I believe the US requires charters to hold the money in trust until the flight. This isn’t the case with scheduled flights though.
I am an retired ticket counter agent at Air Canada and unless things have changed drastically...
All advanced tickets sales are held in trust accounts, just like all travel agencies ( for refunds and or commissions) and also because airlines staff are also governments employees ( by default) by collecting all taxes and fees for local authorities.
What a mess this is!
beechnut wrote:Some fleet news on Les Ailes du Québec (in French)
https://www.lesailesduquebec.com/air-ca ... sa-flotte/
Basically, all A320s to go, A321s into temporary storage, most of long-haul fleet stored, no widebodies on domestic flights. All domestic flying on A220-300 and MAX 8. Increase in A220 utilisation from 1200 to 4000 hours per month, and AC looking into resuming A220 deliveries as A220 is the best choice for domestic flying in a period of reduced demand (it can do all transcons non-stop).
Stored aircraft to be put on a rotation to avoid long-term storage and RTS hassles.
No mention of what happens to the Rouge mixed fleet of 319/320/321; all are obviously out of action.
Beech
beechnut wrote:Some fleet news on Les Ailes du Québec (in French)
https://www.lesailesduquebec.com/air-ca ... sa-flotte/
Basically, all A320s to go, A321s into temporary storage, most of long-haul fleet stored, no widebodies on domestic flights. All domestic flying on A220-300 and MAX 8. Increase in A220 utilisation from 1200 to 4000 hours per month, and AC looking into resuming A220 deliveries as A220 is the best choice for domestic flying in a period of reduced demand (it can do all transcons non-stop).
Stored aircraft to be put on a rotation to avoid long-term storage and RTS hassles.
No mention of what happens to the Rouge mixed fleet of 319/320/321; all are obviously out of action.
Beech
Whiteguy wrote:beechnut wrote:Some fleet news on Les Ailes du Québec (in French)
https://www.lesailesduquebec.com/air-ca ... sa-flotte/
Basically, all A320s to go, A321s into temporary storage, most of long-haul fleet stored, no widebodies on domestic flights. All domestic flying on A220-300 and MAX 8. Increase in A220 utilisation from 1200 to 4000 hours per month, and AC looking into resuming A220 deliveries as A220 is the best choice for domestic flying in a period of reduced demand (it can do all transcons non-stop).
Stored aircraft to be put on a rotation to avoid long-term storage and RTS hassles.
No mention of what happens to the Rouge mixed fleet of 319/320/321; all are obviously out of action.
Beech
Pretty sure some things are lost in translation. The A220 never stopped deliveries, tail 116 was just delivered as were 3 or 4 tails in December.
yyztpa2 wrote:Whiteguy wrote:beechnut wrote:Some fleet news on Les Ailes du Québec (in French)
https://www.lesailesduquebec.com/air-ca ... sa-flotte/
Basically, all A320s to go, A321s into temporary storage, most of long-haul fleet stored, no widebodies on domestic flights. All domestic flying on A220-300 and MAX 8. Increase in A220 utilisation from 1200 to 4000 hours per month, and AC looking into resuming A220 deliveries as A220 is the best choice for domestic flying in a period of reduced demand (it can do all transcons non-stop).
Stored aircraft to be put on a rotation to avoid long-term storage and RTS hassles.
No mention of what happens to the Rouge mixed fleet of 319/320/321; all are obviously out of action.
Beech
Pretty sure some things are lost in translation. The A220 never stopped deliveries, tail 116 was just delivered as were 3 or 4 tails in December.
When AC announcement plans in 4Q20 to cancel 12 from their order, the intention was to defer the 2021 and 2022 orders.
"Early this month, Air Canada concluded an amendment to the purchase agreement for Airbus A220-300s resulting in the deferral of 18 aircraft deliveries scheduled for 2021 and 2022. The airline still expects to take delivery of five A220s this quarter. The airline also reached an agreement with Boeing to defer its remaining 16 Max deliveries scheduled to occur from 2021 through 2023."
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... 737-max-8s
Based on the Le Ailes du Quebec report, that may now have changed. There may be a degree of Government pressure on this decision since AC deliveries contributed to to a signidincat number of deliveries expected from YMX this year. Any deferal would have impacted the production line.
EdmFlyBoi wrote:beechnut wrote:Some fleet news on Les Ailes du Québec (in French)
https://www.lesailesduquebec.com/air-ca ... sa-flotte/
Basically, all A320s to go, A321s into temporary storage, most of long-haul fleet stored, no widebodies on domestic flights. All domestic flying on A220-300 and MAX 8. Increase in A220 utilisation from 1200 to 4000 hours per month, and AC looking into resuming A220 deliveries as A220 is the best choice for domestic flying in a period of reduced demand (it can do all transcons non-stop).
Stored aircraft to be put on a rotation to avoid long-term storage and RTS hassles.
No mention of what happens to the Rouge mixed fleet of 319/320/321; all are obviously out of action.
Beech
It seems really unlikely that all the wide bodies go into storage based on the need to still run cargo and the very limited international schedule. The wide bodies always have down time between the international and cargo trips and they would otherwise sit, hence the transcontinental turns between YVR/YYC-YYZ/YUL. The bulk of the A330 fleet is now being refurbished - 944 is on its way back and 935-939 are in RFD. Although it makes a lot of sense for the A220's to do the bulk of domestic flying, there are 787's and A330's still in the schedule throughout March and April. The table in the article is very old - it was always the plan for the A319's and A320's to leave as the A220's and Maxes came online. The fact that they have hung around so long is related to the Max grounding. I will be really shocked if there are no wide bodies on domestic runs throughout the spring - I guess we will know for sure with the fourth quarter results on Friday.
ElPistolero wrote:YULACYYZ wrote:Is the Money Not held in Trust? So your saying the Airlines use the interest right away?
No, money you pay ahead of time is not held in trust until the time of the flight. That’s why airlines worldwide were dragging their feet or outright suspending refunds until they got financial aid when covid hit. They couldn’t afford to refund everyone their money.
There are some exceptions to this. I believe the US requires charters to hold the money in trust until the flight. This isn’t the case with scheduled flights though.
I am an retired ticket counter agent at Air Canada and unless things have changed drastically...
All advanced tickets sales are held in trust accounts, just like all travel agencies ( for refunds and or commissions) and also because airlines staff are also governments employees ( by default) by collecting all taxes and fees for local authorities.
What a mess this is!
What happens after the flight is cancelled and vouchers/credits are issued. Do they still have to hold the cash in trust?
avi8 wrote:I’m a bit confused. Aren’t there built, undelivered AC 737 MAX aircraft? I if I understood correctly, AC will increase the utilization of its 15 A220s. If they intend to fly them as much as possible, where do the MAXs fit in if more A220s will join the fleet?
Polot wrote:avi8 wrote:I’m a bit confused. Aren’t there built, undelivered AC 737 MAX aircraft? I if I understood correctly, AC will increase the utilization of its 15 A220s. If they intend to fly them as much as possible, where do the MAXs fit in if more A220s will join the fleet?
The Maxes are deferred. AC still has 24 on property to put into service. As to how they fit in- their Maxes seat 32 more people than their A220s.
beechnut wrote:Polot wrote:avi8 wrote:I’m a bit confused. Aren’t there built, undelivered AC 737 MAX aircraft? I if I understood correctly, AC will increase the utilization of its 15 A220s. If they intend to fly them as much as possible, where do the MAXs fit in if more A220s will join the fleet?
The Maxes are deferred. AC still has 24 on property to put into service. As to how they fit in- their Maxes seat 32 more people than their A220s.
Exactly. My reading is that all domestic flying will be either MAX or A220. Both have the range to do transcon flights non-stop. Obviously they'll use the MAX where higher traffic levels dictate higher capacity, and the A220 where traffic is less dense or where more frequency is desired.
Reminds me a bit of the days when CP dispatched 737-200s on transcon non-stops, which they could barely make even in ER version with extra fuel, sometimes requiring a stop in Winnipeg if the winds weren't favourable or if they had to substitute a non-ER equipped 737 (which happened to a flight I was on once, busting YULs curfew and requiring a diversion to YMX). Capacity with the A220 will be similar, but with much more capability!
Beech