Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
CFWAD wrote:With the DH3 gone, I highly doubt you will see AC resurrect some of their smaller station closures from over the past year.
Smaller cities closer to a larger population base prefer the frequency the B190, DH1 and DH3 were able to provide. Now your lowest option has become a 50-seat jet from yesteryear.
People in Lethrbridge, Medicine Hat, North Bay, etc. are close enough to drive to another AC station without having to wait for their now 1x daily flight on a CR2 or DH4.
Airlinerdude wrote:CFWAD wrote:With the DH3 gone, I highly doubt you will see AC resurrect some of their smaller station closures from over the past year.
Smaller cities closer to a larger population base prefer the frequency the B190, DH1 and DH3 were able to provide. Now your lowest option has become a 50-seat jet from yesteryear.
People in Lethrbridge, Medicine Hat, North Bay, etc. are close enough to drive to another AC station without having to wait for their now 1x daily flight on a CR2 or DH4.
I can't help but wonder if the announcement of the DH3 retirement is some kind of bargaining chip that AC is using in its negotiations for some kind of government assistance. As you rightly pointed out, the economics of some of these cities won't justify being served by the DH4/CR2. I just can't imagine the business case for serving some of these destinations will have changed so drastically post-pandemic.
As for Sky consolidation, hasn't this been talked about for a while? Maybe it was just wishful thinking, but I recall speaking to some higher seniority Jazz pilots back in 2019 around the same time as the GGN consolidation who said Sky was next.
Airlinerdude wrote:CFWAD wrote:With the DH3 gone, I highly doubt you will see AC resurrect some of their smaller station closures from over the past year.
Smaller cities closer to a larger population base prefer the frequency the B190, DH1 and DH3 were able to provide. Now your lowest option has become a 50-seat jet from yesteryear.
People in Lethrbridge, Medicine Hat, North Bay, etc. are close enough to drive to another AC station without having to wait for their now 1x daily flight on a CR2 or DH4.
I can't help but wonder if the announcement of the DH3 retirement is some kind of bargaining chip that AC is using in its negotiations for some kind of government assistance. As you rightly pointed out, the economics of some of these cities won't justify being served by the DH4/CR2. I just can't imagine the business case for serving some of these destinations will have changed so drastically post-pandemic.
As for Sky consolidation, hasn't this been talked about for a while? Maybe it was just wishful thinking, but I recall speaking to some higher seniority Jazz pilots back in 2019 around the same time as the GGN consolidation who said Sky was next.
9252fly wrote:Airlinerdude wrote:CFWAD wrote:With the DH3 gone, I highly doubt you will see AC resurrect some of their smaller station closures from over the past year.
Smaller cities closer to a larger population base prefer the frequency the B190, DH1 and DH3 were able to provide. Now your lowest option has become a 50-seat jet from yesteryear.
People in Lethrbridge, Medicine Hat, North Bay, etc. are close enough to drive to another AC station without having to wait for their now 1x daily flight on a CR2 or DH4.
I can't help but wonder if the announcement of the DH3 retirement is some kind of bargaining chip that AC is using in its negotiations for some kind of government assistance. As you rightly pointed out, the economics of some of these cities won't justify being served by the DH4/CR2. I just can't imagine the business case for serving some of these destinations will have changed so drastically post-pandemic.
As for Sky consolidation, hasn't this been talked about for a while? Maybe it was just wishful thinking, but I recall speaking to some higher seniority Jazz pilots back in 2019 around the same time as the GGN consolidation who said Sky was next.
The DH3 would have been withdrawn by 2025 without the pandemic. Whether the timing of the announcement was a coincidence, or bargaining chip is another matter. AC is planning for a future that's unlike what they had envisioned a year ago. The debt they will carry out of this crisis is staggering. There are no sacred cows.
Sky Regional, like Georgian were created to put pressure on Jazz to reduce AC CPA agreement costs. It was extremely effective in the whip-saw negotiations and fleet transfer of RJs to Georgian and E75s from mainline.
yyztpa2 wrote:It appears the two A220 sent to PHX two weeks ago are still there.
Are they parked? Are they the only ones?
Planeboy17 wrote:Just curious if anyone has more info on cargo flights from YVR-ORD starting this month and next with 773 and 787s? I have it on good authority that this will start soon but just interested in days and time or other info.
Thenoflyzone wrote:Planeboy17 wrote:Just curious if anyone has more info on cargo flights from YVR-ORD starting this month and next with 773 and 787s? I have it on good authority that this will start soon but just interested in days and time or other info.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/ac7242
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/ac7226
Once they update the cargo schedule, look for more info here.
Planeboy17 wrote:Just curious if anyone has more info on cargo flights from YVR-ORD starting this month and next with 773 and 787s? I have it on good authority that this will start soon but just interested in days and time or other info.
ThePointblank wrote:An Air Canada 763, registration C-FPCA, was pulled out of storage in Arizona, flown to YYZ, and is being prepped to fly to TLV for conversion into a freighter.
https://twitter.com/TomPodolec/status/1 ... 07177?s=19
777luver wrote:ThePointblank wrote:An Air Canada 763, registration C-FPCA, was pulled out of storage in Arizona, flown to YYZ, and is being prepped to fly to TLV for conversion into a freighter.
https://twitter.com/TomPodolec/status/1 ... 07177?s=19
Glad to see them back in service! Albeit as a cargo plane. Never thought I'd see that again
Cardude100000 wrote:Anyone know how bookings are looking for late summer/fall as vaccinations are picking up in Canada? I'm sure its probably low with the quarantine but are people also anticipating it to end soon?
yzfElite wrote:777luver wrote:ThePointblank wrote:An Air Canada 763, registration C-FPCA, was pulled out of storage in Arizona, flown to YYZ, and is being prepped to fly to TLV for conversion into a freighter.
https://twitter.com/TomPodolec/status/1 ... 07177?s=19
Glad to see them back in service! Albeit as a cargo plane. Never thought I'd see that again
Wow, I wonder why they would pay to convert this bird and not one of the much newer ones - perhaps they don't own the newer ones, I haven't kept up over the years. AC puts its long-haul birds to good use, so at 32 years old you'd think this one was getting pretty tired even for cargo conversion.
baje427 wrote:I wonder if they will pick up any of the Q400's coming on the market I would think they can get a pretty good deal on them.
baje427 wrote:I wonder if they will pick up any of the Q400's coming on the market I would think they can get a pretty good deal on them.
9252fly wrote:baje427 wrote:I wonder if they will pick up any of the Q400's coming on the market I would think they can get a pretty good deal on them.
If anything, they're try to get rid of some of them. Most likely the one's to go are the 10 leased that were originally delivered to Lynx. The future focus will be on aircraft in the CR9 and E75 category. What remains unknown are the intentions for the 15 CR2's, they too will eventually leave the fleet.
777luver wrote:Air Transat and AC agreed to terminate takeover agreement after the European Comission made it evident that it wouldn't approve of the deal even if further concessions were made.
https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/a ... 88140.html
codyul wrote:[url][/url]777luver wrote:Air Transat and AC agreed to terminate takeover agreement after the European Comission made it evident that it wouldn't approve of the deal even if further concessions were made.
https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/a ... 88140.html
Wow. Not a complete shock, yet I am still surprised. I wonder if Michael wasn't as keen as Calin. And definitely not worth giving up too many concessions.
Better to be lean and mean with the recovery still slow (well non-existent at this point in Canada)
And probably good for me. Union seniority would have been messy.
alan3 wrote:I'm surprised too but good news for the consumer and it would have been a messy merger. Guess we won't be seeing any AC A321's transatlantic after all! Having missed the winter sun season and with summer 2021 still up in the air, Transat just need to find a way to survive into 2022.
(IMO this is a big enough story deseres its own thread instead of being buried here....I miss the old anet format)
777luver wrote:codyul wrote:[url][/url]777luver wrote:Air Transat and AC agreed to terminate takeover agreement after the European Comission made it evident that it wouldn't approve of the deal even if further concessions were made.
https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/a ... 88140.html
Wow. Not a complete shock, yet I am still surprised. I wonder if Michael wasn't as keen as Calin. And definitely not worth giving up too many concessions.
Better to be lean and mean with the recovery still slow (well non-existent at this point in Canada)
And probably good for me. Union seniority would have been messy.
I'm shocked too but not surprised. I think what blows me away is the EC said that the current deal put forward wasn't enough, AND that further concessions wouldn't be enough
777luver wrote:alan3 wrote:I'm surprised too but good news for the consumer and it would have been a messy merger. Guess we won't be seeing any AC A321's transatlantic after all! Having missed the winter sun season and with summer 2021 still up in the air, Transat just need to find a way to survive into 2022.
(IMO this is a big enough story deseres its own thread instead of being buried here....I miss the old anet format)
Why is it good for consumers? I'll create another separate thread
codyul wrote:777luver wrote:codyul wrote:[url][/url]
Wow. Not a complete shock, yet I am still surprised. I wonder if Michael wasn't as keen as Calin. And definitely not worth giving up too many concessions.
Better to be lean and mean with the recovery still slow (well non-existent at this point in Canada)
And probably good for me. Union seniority would have been messy.
I'm shocked too but not surprised. I think what blows me away is the EC said that the current deal put forward wasn't enough, AND that further concessions wouldn't be enough
Yeah I'd say that is a bit protectionist, when they've approved IAG buying Air Europa etc
Polot wrote:777luver wrote:alan3 wrote:I'm surprised too but good news for the consumer and it would have been a messy merger. Guess we won't be seeing any AC A321's transatlantic after all! Having missed the winter sun season and with summer 2021 still up in the air, Transat just need to find a way to survive into 2022.
(IMO this is a big enough story deseres its own thread instead of being buried here....I miss the old anet format)
Why is it good for consumers? I'll create another separate thread
Pre covid I think you could make an argument that AC not getting TS would be better for consumers, as TS was surviving on their own or could have merged with WestJet building a stronger competitor to AC.
Post covid, with TS’s survival very much in doubt, whether the merger went through or not likely has minimal impact on consumers.
Polot wrote:777luver wrote:alan3 wrote:I'm surprised too but good news for the consumer and it would have been a messy merger. Guess we won't be seeing any AC A321's transatlantic after all! Having missed the winter sun season and with summer 2021 still up in the air, Transat just need to find a way to survive into 2022.
(IMO this is a big enough story deseres its own thread instead of being buried here....I miss the old anet format)
Why is it good for consumers? I'll create another separate thread
Pre covid I think you could make an argument that AC not getting TS would be better for consumers, as TS was surviving on their own or could have merged with WestJet building a stronger competitor to AC.
Post covid, with TS’s survival very much in doubt, whether the merger went through or not likely has minimal impact on consumers.
alan3 wrote:Polot wrote:777luver wrote:
Why is it good for consumers? I'll create another separate thread
Pre covid I think you could make an argument that AC not getting TS would be better for consumers, as TS was surviving on their own or could have merged with WestJet building a stronger competitor to AC.
Post covid, with TS’s survival very much in doubt, whether the merger went through or not likely has minimal impact on consumers.
Yes, I should clarify that I'm viewing this through the lens of a pre or post Covid environment. Obviously if 2021 remains bleak, AT may not survive through to 2022, 2023 anyway without the domestic and VFR base that AC has. Sunwing and Transat should already see a pickup in winter 2021-22 sun travel and transatlantic travel will return in 2022 and IMO the more competition the better unless I'm remembering my high school economics wrong.
If we look ahead to summers in the future, the US is going to have more Transatlantic competion (Jetblue, Aer Lingus adding UK-US flights, the new Norsk Atlantic Airways, etc) while we want Canada to have less?
jimbo737 wrote:As some will recall I’m not even remotely surprised by this decision, other than by how long it took to make it.
The EU came to the same conclusions as the Cdn Competition Bureau, but the liberals couldn’t manipulate / interfere with the EU decision making process as they usually do for partisan reasons in Canada.
Transat would have been a ridiculous, unnecessary distraction for AC, even pre covid.
I highly doubt WS had / has no serious interest in it and no one else could viably make this work without at least 50 tails providing domestic feed.
777luver wrote:jimbo737 wrote:As some will recall I’m not even remotely surprised by this decision, other than by how long it took to make it.
The EU came to the same conclusions as the Cdn Competition Bureau, but the liberals couldn’t manipulate / interfere with the EU decision making process as they usually do for partisan reasons in Canada.
Transat would have been a ridiculous, unnecessary distraction for AC, even pre covid.
I highly doubt WS had / has no serious interest in it and no one else could viably make this work without at least 50 tails providing domestic feed.
It's protectionism as well, AC/Transat would've had too many routes and even if they coughed up more to please the EU, it wouldn't have made any business sense which leads me to believe they would have had to give up A LOT.
I'm not sure about onex, maybe someone can jog my memory but was Onex ever even interested in Transat, pre covid? That Pierre guy seems interested but Transat like every other airline is a financial mess right now so maybe it will scare him off or was he just yelling into the air to be a savior and Swoop in the save Transat and be a hero?
IADCA wrote:777luver wrote:jimbo737 wrote:As some will recall I’m not even remotely surprised by this decision, other than by how long it took to make it.
The EU came to the same conclusions as the Cdn Competition Bureau, but the liberals couldn’t manipulate / interfere with the EU decision making process as they usually do for partisan reasons in Canada.
Transat would have been a ridiculous, unnecessary distraction for AC, even pre covid.
I highly doubt WS had / has no serious interest in it and no one else could viably make this work without at least 50 tails providing domestic feed.
It's protectionism as well, AC/Transat would've had too many routes and even if they coughed up more to please the EU, it wouldn't have made any business sense which leads me to believe they would have had to give up A LOT.
I'm not sure about onex, maybe someone can jog my memory but was Onex ever even interested in Transat, pre covid? That Pierre guy seems interested but Transat like every other airline is a financial mess right now so maybe it will scare him off or was he just yelling into the air to be a savior and Swoop in the save Transat and be a hero?
It's not protectionism except as it relates to protecting EU consumers. It's an antitrust review and what they care about is price and availability to EU consumers, not impact on EU companies or squat all to do with Canada or with trade law. And frankly, I can't see any argument at all (at least pre-COVID and TS crumbling) that this didn't hurt consumers on certain EU-Canada routes, particularly to secondary destinations. The only question in the antitrust community was whether that harm to competition would be enough that they'd actually want to block the deal or would demand remedies that AC couldn't swallow.
777luver wrote:IADCA wrote:777luver wrote:
It's protectionism as well, AC/Transat would've had too many routes and even if they coughed up more to please the EU, it wouldn't have made any business sense which leads me to believe they would have had to give up A LOT.
I'm not sure about onex, maybe someone can jog my memory but was Onex ever even interested in Transat, pre covid? That Pierre guy seems interested but Transat like every other airline is a financial mess right now so maybe it will scare him off or was he just yelling into the air to be a savior and Swoop in the save Transat and be a hero?
It's not protectionism except as it relates to protecting EU consumers. It's an antitrust review and what they care about is price and availability to EU consumers, not impact on EU companies or squat all to do with Canada or with trade law. And frankly, I can't see any argument at all (at least pre-COVID and TS crumbling) that this didn't hurt consumers on certain EU-Canada routes, particularly to secondary destinations. The only question in the antitrust community was whether that harm to competition would be enough that they'd actually want to block the deal or would demand remedies that AC couldn't swallow.
What's the argument that such a deal would hurt consumers? Thanks for clarifying on the anti trust, I said protectionism because it protects the EU, not just airlines but that's a moot point
777luver wrote:Air Transat and AC agreed to terminate takeover agreement after the European Comission made it evident that it wouldn't approve of the deal even if further concessions were made.
https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/a ... 88140.html
777luver wrote:IADCA wrote:777luver wrote:
It's protectionism as well, AC/Transat would've had too many routes and even if they coughed up more to please the EU, it wouldn't have made any business sense which leads me to believe they would have had to give up A LOT.
I'm not sure about onex, maybe someone can jog my memory but was Onex ever even interested in Transat, pre covid? That Pierre guy seems interested but Transat like every other airline is a financial mess right now so maybe it will scare him off or was he just yelling into the air to be a savior and Swoop in the save Transat and be a hero?
It's not protectionism except as it relates to protecting EU consumers. It's an antitrust review and what they care about is price and availability to EU consumers, not impact on EU companies or squat all to do with Canada or with trade law. And frankly, I can't see any argument at all (at least pre-COVID and TS crumbling) that this didn't hurt consumers on certain EU-Canada routes, particularly to secondary destinations. The only question in the antitrust community was whether that harm to competition would be enough that they'd actually want to block the deal or would demand remedies that AC couldn't swallow.
What's the argument that such a deal would hurt consumers? Thanks for clarifying on the anti trust, I said protectionism because it protects the EU, not just airlines but that's a moot point
lesfalls wrote:Why does this come under the power of EC? AA and US Airways didn't need the EC approval for their merger.
alan3 wrote:Guess we won't be seeing any AC A321's transatlantic after all!
alexdelzotto wrote:Makes for easy connections with MS onward to BEY.
A few flights a day between CAI and BEY and much better alternative to GVA.
If the flight was to take a delay in YUL, pax don't have to worry about having a schengen.
YQBexYHZBGM wrote:alexdelzotto wrote:Makes for easy connections with MS onward to BEY.
A few flights a day between CAI and BEY and much better alternative to GVA.
If the flight was to take a delay in YUL, pax don't have to worry about having a schengen.
If I had a spare 787 at my disposal, I'd operate YUL-BEY and YUL-ATH nonstops, at least in the summer months. Same destinations from YHZ (or even with an enroute stop in YHZ for the YUL flights, if necessary). Given the substantial Lebanese and Greek populations in YUL and YHZ, I am certain these flights would do very well for Rouge.