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embraer175e2
Posts: 492
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:47 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2021

Sun Sep 12, 2021 9:00 pm

Does Nigerias Air peace fly on Jamaica? I saw a plane picture in the jamaican thread.
 
baje427
Posts: 1025
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon Sep 13, 2021 3:26 pm

caribny wrote:
baje427 wrote:
Any word on how BW's BGI-JFK route is doing?


Spoke to a Bajan who splits her time between the two points and she doesnt even think of them. Habits are hard to break and she has been using B6 for years, and not unhappy with them. While I understand BWs constraints I also suspect that a once weekly flight on a Thursday isnt exactly a hit when B6 offers service in the weekend.

But maybe they are doing well. A mere 150 seats per week arent hard to fill and maybe there are enough people who don't like B6. BW I suspect has a better record of punctuality than they do and some might like their Caribbean ambience. What is important is that they havent withdrawn the service even as having just 2 planes in KIN leaves them stretched at peak times (cutting its KIN JFK during peak periods to accommodate JFK MBJ).

It also depends on whether they have captured JFK DOM traffic as BW is now the easiest way to travel between those 2 points. JFK DOM passengers have long complained about the inconvenience of this and BW now offers a good solution. Its a small market but if most travelling between these two points do so on just one flight it might well offset not great numbers on the BGI itself.

True if they last on the route they should be able to do ok for winter provided BGI is not back in lockdown.
 
caribny
Posts: 864
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:47 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:08 am

embraer175e2 wrote:
caribny wrote:
embraer175e2 wrote:

I see they opened Montrael and New York flights:

https://paxex.aero/air-france-guadeloup ... york-city/



They also do MIA, PAP, and CAY, subject to Covid limitations.

Are they earning money with these routes?


I assume so. Large Haitian population in the French Antilles and there must be decent travel to French Guyane from the Antilles and Haiti.
 
caribny
Posts: 864
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:47 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:08 am

embraer175e2 wrote:
Does Nigerias Air peace fly on Jamaica? I saw a plane picture in the jamaican thread.



Must be a charter flight.
 
caribny
Posts: 864
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:47 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:11 am

baje427 wrote:
caribny wrote:
baje427 wrote:
Any word on how BW's BGI-JFK route is doing?


Spoke to a Bajan who splits her time between the two points and she doesnt even think of them. Habits are hard to break and she has been using B6 for years, and not unhappy with them. While I understand BWs constraints I also suspect that a once weekly flight on a Thursday isnt exactly a hit when B6 offers service in the weekend.

But maybe they are doing well. A mere 150 seats per week arent hard to fill and maybe there are enough people who don't like B6. BW I suspect has a better record of punctuality than they do and some might like their Caribbean ambience. What is important is that they havent withdrawn the service even as having just 2 planes in KIN leaves them stretched at peak times (cutting its KIN JFK during peak periods to accommodate JFK MBJ).

It also depends on whether they have captured JFK DOM traffic as BW is now the easiest way to travel between those 2 points. JFK DOM passengers have long complained about the inconvenience of this and BW now offers a good solution. Its a small market but if most travelling between these two points do so on just one flight it might well offset not great numbers on the BGI itself.

True if they last on the route they should be able to do ok for winter provided BGI is not back in lockdown.



Thursday isnt a good day for tourists. as they prefer weekend travel.
 
maverick4002
Posts: 542
Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2015 2:14 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:28 am

when is the first BW max landing in POS?
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26736
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:56 am

embraer175e2 wrote:
caribny wrote:
embraer175e2 wrote:

I see they opened Montrael and New York flights:

https://paxex.aero/air-france-guadeloup ... york-city/



They also do MIA, PAP, and CAY, subject to Covid limitations.

Are they earning money with these routes?


Air France has been flying regionally within the French Caribbean and Miami since the early 1960s without interruption. Limited air service from the French Caribbean, especially to the States, probably keeps them profitable as fares are high.
 
embraer175e2
Posts: 492
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:47 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:24 pm

caribny wrote:
embraer175e2 wrote:
caribny wrote:


They also do MIA, PAP, and CAY, subject to Covid limitations.

Are they earning money with these routes?


I assume so. Large Haitian population in the French Antilles and there must be decent travel to French Guyane from the Antilles and Haiti.

They connect all regional french speaking countries with each other.
 
embraer175e2
Posts: 492
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:47 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:48 pm

MAH4546 wrote:
embraer175e2 wrote:
caribny wrote:


They also do MIA, PAP, and CAY, subject to Covid limitations.

Are they earning money with these routes?


Air France has been flying regionally within the French Caribbean and Miami since the early 1960s without interruption. Limited air service from the French Caribbean, especially to the States, probably keeps them profitable as fares are high.

Whats the cost for a Miami ticket with AF?
Does American Airlines also fly on the same Miami -guadeloupe / martinique routes?
 
caribny
Posts: 864
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:47 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:10 pm

embraer175e2 wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:
embraer175e2 wrote:
Are they earning money with these routes?


Air France has been flying regionally within the French Caribbean and Miami since the early 1960s without interruption. Limited air service from the French Caribbean, especially to the States, probably keeps them profitable as fares are high.

Whats the cost for a Miami ticket with AF?
Does American Airlines also fly on the same Miami -guadeloupe / martinique routes?



Prior to Covid AA flew nonstop flights out of MIA to those islands. I think that these will resume this winter. Their focus is on leisure market connectivity via its MIA hub. I suspect that AF focuses on travel by French Caribbean people (including Haitians) on the MIA sector. Not sure if/when the MIA PAP segment of AFs MIA route is being reinstated as they will be running some nonstop MIA PTP this winter.
 
Brickell305
Posts: 1662
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:07 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:48 pm

caribny wrote:
embraer175e2 wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:

Air France has been flying regionally within the French Caribbean and Miami since the early 1960s without interruption. Limited air service from the French Caribbean, especially to the States, probably keeps them profitable as fares are high.

Whats the cost for a Miami ticket with AF?
Does American Airlines also fly on the same Miami -guadeloupe / martinique routes?



Prior to Covid AA flew nonstop flights out of MIA to those islands. I think that these will resume this winter. Their focus is on leisure market connectivity via its MIA hub. I suspect that AF focuses on travel by French Caribbean people (including Haitians) on the MIA sector. Not sure if/when the MIA PAP segment of AFs MIA route is being reinstated as they will be running some nonstop MIA PTP this winter.

AF restarts MIA-PAP 3x weekly in November. Also, anecdotally, most of that flight usually deplanes in PAP.
 
Caymanair
Posts: 541
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 4:53 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:02 am

I think we can scrap the talk of flights returning to GCM for now...

It has just been announced that reopening plans will be 'paused' until 2022.
 
caribny
Posts: 864
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:47 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed Sep 15, 2021 6:44 am

Caymanair wrote:
I think we can scrap the talk of flights returning to GCM for now...

It has just been announced that reopening plans will be 'paused' until 2022.



Well when the locals work in jobs that allow "work from home" and the hospitality jobs are held by immigrants, and tourism isnt the most important sector no need to rush to reopen.
 
caribny
Posts: 864
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:47 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed Sep 15, 2021 6:50 am

Brickell305 wrote:
Also, anecdotally, most of that flight usually deplanes in PAP.



No shock. French Antilleans really do not live in the Americas. Their ties are almost exclusively to Europe (inclusive of the parts of Europe "located" in the Americas). CAY is even more isolated from the rest of the Americas. Aside from travel from the French Antilles/Haiti, and limited service from Brazil its most easily accessible by motor powered canoes from Suriname.

These territories live in a tighter Francophone bubble than even the French mainland.
 
nascar1
Posts: 145
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:32 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed Sep 15, 2021 6:06 pm

 
embraer175e2
Posts: 492
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:47 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Sep 17, 2021 11:41 pm

Easy Air Curacao starts their marketing campaign for Colombia.
When will jet air gets its permits for colombia?
 
richard757
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Jul 31, 2017 11:21 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat Sep 18, 2021 12:06 am

Trinidad and Tobago remains as a Red List country. I suspect that British Airways and Virgin Atlantic will delay services to the islands until Trinidad and Tobago is removed from the Red List. Also, it is an expensive cost for returning passengers with the quarantine. Tourism will be adversely affected in Tobago.
 
gunnerman
Posts: 1282
Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 7:55 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:57 pm

VS is scheduled to resume flights from LHR to TAB on 14 October, 1x weekly via BGI.

BA is scheduled to resume flights from LGW to T&T on 10 December, being POS 4x weekly via UVF and TAB 3x weekly via ANU.

We are of course in a changeable world but these flights were scheduled whilst T&T was (and remains) on the red list.

One more thing: DE has not scheduled a resumption of flights from FRA to TAB (was weekly).
 
trintocan
Posts: 2805
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2000 6:02 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2021

Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:11 pm

I'm just catching up with things in our forum. First, the reopening of flights between T&T and the UK would have been influenced by both the border closure of T&T until July and the fact that the country remains on the British red list. The travel picture for the UK is changing with the traffic-light categorisation of countries ending from early October. From that time countries will be listed as either open or red (effectively off-limits). While 8 countries are being removed from the UK's current red list T&T is not one of them. This means that for the moment travellers from T&T are not allowed into the UK unless they are British citizens or residents. If they are, they must quarantine at a hotel for 10 days at a cost of £2,250 or so for the 1st adult with surcharges for other adults and children. They must also undergo tests on days 2 and 8 after arrival. The new arrangement will largely preserve these rules. Where DE is concerned I am not aware of whether Germany has a similar list but the closed T&T borders for a long time and the slow recovery of tourism would certainly be factors playing into if and when hey resume service.

Please do not underestimate the routes between ORY and FDF and PTP. If one compiles a list of the 10 busiest trans-Atlantic routes both will feature! The sheer traffic on these routes for the reasons well-described above ensure that the 4-5 daily widebodies out of FDF and the 5-7 daily from PTP are kept very busy. No trans-Atlantic route from any other Caribbean island comes even close to this. ORY-CAY is somewhat smaller (French Guiana's population is much smaller anyway) but can still see 2 widebodies a day at times.

I do not know much about InterCaribbean but let's not forget that the Turks & Caicos is not in CariCom so the need to prioritise nationals of the bloc when recruiting is not as compelling. Where the ex-LI staff are concerned I think that the primary issue is type rating for the Embraer fleet they fly. Things may well change if they grow more in BGI and operate more ATR aircraft.

BW needs those MAX 8s aboard as soon as possible, the 737-800s have served them long and well but are becoming long in the tooth. If they are to be competitive going forward as the travel markets reopen the newer product on the MAX should serve them well.

Trintocan.
 
caribny
Posts: 864
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:47 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:09 am

trintocan wrote:
I'm just catching up with things in our forum. First, the reopening of flights between T&T and the UK would have been influenced by both the border closure of T&T until July and the fact that the country remains on the British red list. The travel picture for the UK is changing with the traffic-light categorisation of countries ending from early October. From that time countries will be listed as either open or red (effectively off-limits). While 8 countries are being removed from the UK's current red list T&T is not one of them. This means that for the moment travellers from T&T are not allowed into the UK unless they are British citizens or residents. If they are, they must quarantine at a hotel for 10 days at a cost of £2,250 or so for the 1st adult with surcharges for other adults and children. They must also undergo tests on days 2 and 8 after arrival. The new arrangement will largely preserve these rules. Where DE is concerned I am not aware of whether Germany has a similar list but the closed T&T borders for a long time and the slow recovery of tourism would certainly be factors playing into if and when hey resume service.

Please do not underestimate the routes between ORY and FDF and PTP. If one compiles a list of the 10 busiest trans-Atlantic routes both will feature! The sheer traffic on these routes for the reasons well-described above ensure that the 4-5 daily widebodies out of FDF and the 5-7 daily from PTP are kept very busy. No trans-Atlantic route from any other Caribbean island comes even close to this. ORY-CAY is somewhat smaller (French Guiana's population is much smaller anyway) but can still see 2 widebodies a day at times.

I do not know much about InterCaribbean but let's not forget that the Turks & Caicos is not in CariCom so the need to prioritise nationals of the bloc when recruiting is not as compelling. Where the ex-LI staff are concerned I think that the primary issue is type rating for the Embraer fleet they fly. Things may well change if they grow more in BGI and operate more ATR aircraft.

BW needs those MAX 8s aboard as soon as possible, the 737-800s have served them long and well but are becoming long in the tooth. If they are to be competitive going forward as the travel markets reopen the newer product on the MAX should serve them well.

Trintocan.


Correct about PTP/FDF. Even though traffic from points outside of France (inclusive of its overseas regions) is light both airports rank among the Caribbean's busiest. PTP/FDF arent part of the Caribbean, nor of the Americas. These are far flung regions of Europe. CAY is even worse as the only flights from outside of France enter from Brazil. The Haiti flights arrive via "France". I do not know how much non French Antillean Caribbean people appreciate the fact that these territories are not part of this hemisphere as far as travel goes. In 15 minutes one flies from SLU to Europe! Dominicans can see Europe on the horizon (Guadeloupe) as can Kittitians (St Barth's).



Its interesting to see Inter Caribbean's scheduling. They have been pushing back resumption of their pre pandemic schedule all year. Their BGI hub must be a big disappointment for them as LI used to run 14+ flights daily. Inter Caribbean struggles with 2x daily. The importance of US visa travel for BGI has been revealed as diminished demand for such visas and a move to online processing for visa renewals has reduced demand. Business travel is also diminished. 3 BW flights (2 738s and 1 ATR) leaving SKB last Thursday showed some travel for CPL, because all matches were there. Doubtful that a cricket game in BGI will generate as much visitor demand from points in the region if its just one match.

So I do not know where Inter Caribbean goes with its ATRs. It doesnt look like BGI can support these planes. Their heavier routes in the northern Caribbean already see e-jets.
 
A388
Posts: 8139
Joined: Mon May 21, 2001 3:48 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:38 pm

caribny wrote:
Correct about PTP/FDF. Even though traffic from points outside of France (inclusive of its overseas regions) is light both airports rank among the Caribbean's busiest. PTP/FDF arent part of the Caribbean, nor of the Americas. These are far flung regions of Europe. CAY is even worse as the only flights from outside of France enter from Brazil. The Haiti flights arrive via "France". I do not know how much non French Antillean Caribbean people appreciate the fact that these territories are not part of this hemisphere as far as travel goes. In 15 minutes one flies from SLU to Europe! Dominicans can see Europe on the horizon (Guadeloupe) as can Kittitians (St Barth's)


When purely looking at historical ties and being part of the EU through the Netherlands, Curacao actually is also not doing bad. We used to have 2 daily nonstop flights to/from AMS on KLM and TUI Netherlands. This year in the summer, this was 4 times daily (KLM 2 x daily and TUI 2 x daily). Now it is down to 16 weekly but in the winter it will most likely be 4 daily flights again. Curacao is a well known holiday destination for the Dutch. So, we're by far not at the level of Guadeloupe and Martinique but looking at the historical ties and link to the EU, I do think that we come in second place behind Guadeloupe and Martinique.

A388
 
beeweel15
Posts: 1030
Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2003 12:59 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:38 pm

richard757 wrote:
Trinidad and Tobago remains as a Red List country. I suspect that British Airways and Virgin Atlantic will delay services to the islands until Trinidad and Tobago is removed from the Red List. Also, it is an expensive cost for returning passengers with the quarantine. Tourism will be adversely affected in Tobago.


HELLO TOBAGO there are 330 million plus people with in 4hours of you why aren't you not reaching out to them. There are other tourists besides Europe
 
Brickell305
Posts: 1662
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:07 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:24 pm

beeweel15 wrote:
richard757 wrote:
Trinidad and Tobago remains as a Red List country. I suspect that British Airways and Virgin Atlantic will delay services to the islands until Trinidad and Tobago is removed from the Red List. Also, it is an expensive cost for returning passengers with the quarantine. Tourism will be adversely affected in Tobago.


HELLO TOBAGO there are 330 million plus people with in 4hours of you why aren't you not reaching out to them. There are other tourists besides Europe

I’ve never understood why Tobago hasn’t been marketed more heavily to the American tourist. One could argue that it’s relatively distant from the US compared to other Caribbean destinations but so are BGI and GND and both those destinations market themselves significantly. I suspect it may have to do with Trinidad not being tourism dependent and therefore lacking the marketing expertise that is found on more tourism dependent islands. It could also be that the fact that the larger island isn’t traditionally touristy makes would be vacationers conflate the two and assume that Tobago isn’t touristy either. Either way, I do find it strange that TAB hasn’t been pushed more to the US traveler.
 
aa1818
Posts: 1642
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 2:03 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:27 pm

trintocan wrote:
I'm just catching up with things in our forum. First, the reopening of flights between T&T and the UK would have been influenced by both the border closure of T&T until July and the fact that the country remains on the British red list. The travel picture for the UK is changing with the traffic-light categorisation of countries ending from early October. From that time countries will be listed as either open or red (effectively off-limits). While 8 countries are being removed from the UK's current red list T&T is not one of them. This means that for the moment travellers from T&T are not allowed into the UK unless they are British citizens or residents. If they are, they must quarantine at a hotel for 10 days at a cost of £2,250 or so for the 1st adult with surcharges for other adults and children. They must also undergo tests on days 2 and 8 after arrival. The new arrangement will largely preserve these rules. Where DE is concerned I am not aware of whether Germany has a similar list but the closed T&T borders for a long time and the slow recovery of tourism would certainly be factors playing into if and when hey resume service.


Another factor to consider specifically for Tobago is the fact that most of the hotels on the island have been closed since April/ May of 2021, after the Easter joy, and the second major lock-down that ensued. That will essentially mirror or determine when airlines return to Tobago.
Coco Reef, Grafton, Le Grand Courlan, Mt. Irvine (closed until Nov 1st 2021) and I'm sure there are others.

Cheers,
AA1818
 
gunnerman
Posts: 1282
Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 7:55 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon Sep 20, 2021 6:50 pm

Brickell305 wrote:
beeweel15 wrote:
richard757 wrote:
Trinidad and Tobago remains as a Red List country. I suspect that British Airways and Virgin Atlantic will delay services to the islands until Trinidad and Tobago is removed from the Red List. Also, it is an expensive cost for returning passengers with the quarantine. Tourism will be adversely affected in Tobago.


HELLO TOBAGO there are 330 million plus people with in 4hours of you why aren't you not reaching out to them. There are other tourists besides Europe

I’ve never understood why Tobago hasn’t been marketed more heavily to the American tourist. One could argue that it’s relatively distant from the US compared to other Caribbean destinations but so are BGI and GND and both those destinations market themselves significantly. I suspect it may have to do with Trinidad not being tourism dependent and therefore lacking the marketing expertise that is found on more tourism dependent islands. It could also be that the fact that the larger island isn’t traditionally touristy makes would be vacationers conflate the two and assume that Tobago isn’t touristy either. Either way, I do find it strange that TAB hasn’t been pushed more to the US traveler.

I don't find it at all surprising that Tobago, despite having fine beaches and hotels close to the airport (St Lucia can be envious), has been poorly marketed even for UK tourists as the incompetence and corruption of the Tobago authorities has to be seen to be believed.
 
User avatar
United787
Posts: 3037
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 12:20 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:18 pm

Can anyone tell me the status of the terminal repair/renovation/reconstruction from 2017's Hurricane Irma? I was last at SXM in 2019 and they had a long way to go. Is the reconstruction complete? Is the upper floor open and operating?
 
User avatar
United787
Posts: 3037
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 12:20 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:27 pm

United787 wrote:
Can anyone tell me the status of the terminal repair/renovation/reconstruction from 2017's Hurricane Irma? I was last at SXM in 2019 and they had a long way to go. Is the reconstruction complete? Is the upper floor open and operating?


Sorry, meant for SXM.
 
SELMER40
Posts: 280
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:07 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:35 am

United787 wrote:
United787 wrote:
Can anyone tell me the status of the terminal repair/renovation/reconstruction from 2017's Hurricane Irma? I was last at SXM in 2019 and they had a long way to go. Is the reconstruction complete? Is the upper floor open and operating?


Sorry, meant for SXM.

This is where I get my information
https://www.sxmairport.com/newsletter.php
 
embraer175e2
Posts: 492
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:47 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:27 pm

Sunrise Airways of haiti will introduce the embraer120 to their fleet.

https://www.facebook.com/12126534470420 ... 282637857/
 
fowlr29
Posts: 92
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:29 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:04 pm

United787 wrote:
United787 wrote:
Can anyone tell me the status of the terminal repair/renovation/reconstruction from 2017's Hurricane Irma? I was last at SXM in 2019 and they had a long way to go. Is the reconstruction complete? Is the upper floor open and operating?


Sorry, meant for SXM.


Airport is the same as is it was in 2021 from a passenger perspective. Work is going on behind the scenes but nothing will change until summer 2023.
 
User avatar
United787
Posts: 3037
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 12:20 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:44 pm

fowlr29 wrote:
United787 wrote:
United787 wrote:
Can anyone tell me the status of the terminal repair/renovation/reconstruction from 2017's Hurricane Irma? I was last at SXM in 2019 and they had a long way to go. Is the reconstruction complete? Is the upper floor open and operating?


Sorry, meant for SXM.


Airport is the same as is it was in 2021 from a passenger perspective. Work is going on behind the scenes but nothing will change until summer 2023.


I assume you mean "..same as it was in 2019..."? If so, that is crazy that it will be 6 years for reconstruction!?!?!
 
dominicl316
Posts: 137
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:48 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Sep 21, 2021 6:09 pm

Saw two different WinAir Twin Otters flying over STX today. They didn't land, just left SXM and returned to SXM. Found this very interesting, as WM does not have landing rights in U.S. territories. Are they intending on serving STX once SXM eventually goes back to FAA Category 1 status?
 
LimaFoxTango
Posts: 1065
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2004 11:33 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Sep 21, 2021 6:28 pm

dominicl316 wrote:
Saw two different WinAir Twin Otters flying over STX today. They didn't land, just left SXM and returned to SXM. Found this very interesting, as WM does not have landing rights in U.S. territories. Are they intending on serving STX once SXM eventually goes back to FAA Category 1 status?


More than likely pilot training.
 
baje427
Posts: 1025
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Sep 21, 2021 6:30 pm

caribny wrote:
trintocan wrote:
I'm just catching up with things in our forum. First, the reopening of flights between T&T and the UK would have been influenced by both the border closure of T&T until July and the fact that the country remains on the British red list. The travel picture for the UK is changing with the traffic-light categorisation of countries ending from early October. From that time countries will be listed as either open or red (effectively off-limits). While 8 countries are being removed from the UK's current red list T&T is not one of them. This means that for the moment travellers from T&T are not allowed into the UK unless they are British citizens or residents. If they are, they must quarantine at a hotel for 10 days at a cost of £2,250 or so for the 1st adult with surcharges for other adults and children. They must also undergo tests on days 2 and 8 after arrival. The new arrangement will largely preserve these rules. Where DE is concerned I am not aware of whether Germany has a similar list but the closed T&T borders for a long time and the slow recovery of tourism would certainly be factors playing into if and when hey resume service.

Please do not underestimate the routes between ORY and FDF and PTP. If one compiles a list of the 10 busiest trans-Atlantic routes both will feature! The sheer traffic on these routes for the reasons well-described above ensure that the 4-5 daily widebodies out of FDF and the 5-7 daily from PTP are kept very busy. No trans-Atlantic route from any other Caribbean island comes even close to this. ORY-CAY is somewhat smaller (French Guiana's population is much smaller anyway) but can still see 2 widebodies a day at times.

I do not know much about InterCaribbean but let's not forget that the Turks & Caicos is not in CariCom so the need to prioritise nationals of the bloc when recruiting is not as compelling. Where the ex-LI staff are concerned I think that the primary issue is type rating for the Embraer fleet they fly. Things may well change if they grow more in BGI and operate more ATR aircraft.

BW needs those MAX 8s aboard as soon as possible, the 737-800s have served them long and well but are becoming long in the tooth. If they are to be competitive going forward as the travel markets reopen the newer product on the MAX should serve them well.

Trintocan.


Correct about PTP/FDF. Even though traffic from points outside of France (inclusive of its overseas regions) is light both airports rank among the Caribbean's busiest. PTP/FDF arent part of the Caribbean, nor of the Americas. These are far flung regions of Europe. CAY is even worse as the only flights from outside of France enter from Brazil. The Haiti flights arrive via "France". I do not know how much non French Antillean Caribbean people appreciate the fact that these territories are not part of this hemisphere as far as travel goes. In 15 minutes one flies from SLU to Europe! Dominicans can see Europe on the horizon (Guadeloupe) as can Kittitians (St Barth's).



Its interesting to see Inter Caribbean's scheduling. They have been pushing back resumption of their pre pandemic schedule all year. Their BGI hub must be a big disappointment for them as LI used to run 14+ flights daily. Inter Caribbean struggles with 2x daily. The importance of US visa travel for BGI has been revealed as diminished demand for such visas and a move to online processing for visa renewals has reduced demand. Business travel is also diminished. 3 BW flights (2 738s and 1 ATR) leaving SKB last Thursday showed some travel for CPL, because all matches were there. Doubtful that a cricket game in BGI will generate as much visitor demand from points in the region if its just one match.

So I do not know where Inter Caribbean goes with its ATRs. It doesnt look like BGI can support these planes. Their heavier routes in the northern Caribbean already see e-jets.

We have to appreciate most Caribbean economies are depressed. In addition, most islands in the EC are experiencing Covid surges and have various curfews and restrictions. There really is no incentive to travel, if by some miracle Covid abates we can have a better view of JY's BGI ops but as it stands things are bleak.
 
caribny
Posts: 864
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:47 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Sep 21, 2021 6:41 pm

A388 wrote:
caribny wrote:
Correct about PTP/FDF. Even though traffic from points outside of France (inclusive of its overseas regions) is light both airports rank among the Caribbean's busiest. PTP/FDF arent part of the Caribbean, nor of the Americas. These are far flung regions of Europe. CAY is even worse as the only flights from outside of France enter from Brazil. The Haiti flights arrive via "France". I do not know how much non French Antillean Caribbean people appreciate the fact that these territories are not part of this hemisphere as far as travel goes. In 15 minutes one flies from SLU to Europe! Dominicans can see Europe on the horizon (Guadeloupe) as can Kittitians (St Barth's)


When purely looking at historical ties and being part of the EU through the Netherlands, Curacao actually is also not doing bad. We used to have 2 daily nonstop flights to/from AMS on KLM and TUI Netherlands. This year in the summer, this was 4 times daily (KLM 2 x daily and TUI 2 x daily). Now it is down to 16 weekly but in the winter it will most likely be 4 daily flights again. Curacao is a well known holiday destination for the Dutch. So, we're by far not at the level of Guadeloupe and Martinique but looking at the historical ties and link to the EU, I do think that we come in second place behind Guadeloupe and Martinique.

A388



Does CUR get each flight exclusively to itself or is it shared with another island? CUR and AUA are well integrated into the Americas with ample service to the USA and South America with some to the Caribbean, so do not exist as this extension of "Europe in a bubble" as do the French islands, and especially CAY. Pre pandemic CUR was very accessible to anyone and AUA was almost an extension of the USA, receiving very heavy service when one considers its small size and the fact that it isnt a US territory.
 
caribny
Posts: 864
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:47 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Sep 21, 2021 6:49 pm

Brickell305 wrote:
beeweel15 wrote:
richard757 wrote:
Trinidad and Tobago remains as a Red List country. I suspect that British Airways and Virgin Atlantic will delay services to the islands until Trinidad and Tobago is removed from the Red List. Also, it is an expensive cost for returning passengers with the quarantine. Tourism will be adversely affected in Tobago.


HELLO TOBAGO there are 330 million plus people with in 4hours of you why aren't you not reaching out to them. There are other tourists besides Europe

I’ve never understood why Tobago hasn’t been marketed more heavily to the American tourist. One could argue that it’s relatively distant from the US compared to other Caribbean destinations but so are BGI and GND and both those destinations market themselves significantly. I suspect it may have to do with Trinidad not being tourism dependent and therefore lacking the marketing expertise that is found on more tourism dependent islands. It could also be that the fact that the larger island isn’t traditionally touristy makes would be vacationers conflate the two and assume that Tobago isn’t touristy either. Either way, I do find it strange that TAB hasn’t been pushed more to the US traveler.



This is correct. Certainly not because TAB doesnt see the importance of the USA market. In fact when Sandals was looking to open a property there that was the hope but that deal fell through.

The strange part however is that TAB is fairly well known in the USA so its more of the "out of sight out of mind" thing. With 20+ choices of Caribbean islands to see its the squeaky wheel that gathers the attention. GND promotes itself, even though being just as far and with a very similar product.

If BW wants leisure business they need to work with TAB rather than fooling themselves that they can compete at MBJ. What TAB needs to do is to hire as its tourist director someone who has worked with more popular islands, and therefore arriving with built in contacts into the USA travel trade. The US is a tougher market because it is more retail, unlike the Euro market which is more driven by wholesalers.
 
A388
Posts: 8139
Joined: Mon May 21, 2001 3:48 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Sep 21, 2021 6:57 pm

caribny wrote:
Does CUR get each flight exclusively to itself or is it shared with another island? CUR and AUA are well integrated into the Americas with ample service to the USA and South America with some to the Caribbean, so do not exist as this extension of "Europe in a bubble" as do the French islands, and especially CAY. Pre pandemic CUR was very accessible to anyone and AUA was almost an extension of the USA, receiving very heavy service when one considers its small size and the fact that it isnt a US territory.


Some flights are shared but most of the passengers go to CUR. And no, we don't get ample flights from the Americas. Only AUA does, not CUR. We will have a serious problem if the Dutch traffic isn't here. We are not any European bubble but the discussion was looking at the size of the traffic. With 4 daily flights to CUR from AMS, I don't think any other islands in the Caribbean has that. Most of this traffic is due to the historical ties we have with the Netherlands as both locals (living in CUR and the Netherlands) and citizens from the Netherlands itself fly the route.

A388
 
caribny
Posts: 864
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Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Sep 21, 2021 7:06 pm

baje427 wrote:
We have to appreciate most Caribbean economies are depressed. In addition, most islands in the EC are experiencing Covid surges and have various curfews and restrictions. There really is no incentive to travel, if by some miracle Covid abates we can have a better view of JY's BGI ops but as it stands things are bleak.


OGL seems to be the real success in this pandemic era. I am seeing that BW will soon be running 9w out of POS and maintaining its 4w out of BGI. With AA and B6 into GEO all that they await is whether VS will start service and when BW begins its IAH flights (via POS). Guyana is doing well with its oil boom and the high synergy with T&T that this creates.

But yes Covid and continued high fares has dampened more discretionary forms of intra regional travel. A major difference with business travel into Guyana is it is more of the "face to face" type than the "Zoom call" type. You actually have to be onsite. Its the engineers and not the sales execs. In addition to oil related travel there also seems to be an expansion of the TT service sector into Guyana anticipating a larger consumer market, this also generating travel. It appears as if Guyana will facilitate some level of growth in the TT economy.
 
gunnerman
Posts: 1282
Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 7:55 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Sep 21, 2021 7:24 pm

A hole in UVF's runway has caused problems since Sunday with flights being diverted to BGI, and the Saint Lucia Air and Sea Ports Authority (SLASPA) has come under fire for its lack of communication with people meeting flights not being told of the problem. One example of the problem caused was BA's flight from LGW which was diverted to BGI with passengers put into hotels for one night and BA's flight to UVF the next day (Monday) being cancelled.
 
caribny
Posts: 864
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:47 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Sep 21, 2021 7:39 pm

A388 wrote:
caribny wrote:
Does CUR get each flight exclusively to itself or is it shared with another island? CUR and AUA are well integrated into the Americas with ample service to the USA and South America with some to the Caribbean, so do not exist as this extension of "Europe in a bubble" as do the French islands, and especially CAY. Pre pandemic CUR was very accessible to anyone and AUA was almost an extension of the USA, receiving very heavy service when one considers its small size and the fact that it isnt a US territory.


Some flights are shared but most of the passengers go to CUR. And no, we don't get ample flights from the Americas. Only AUA does, not CUR. We will have a serious problem if the Dutch traffic isn't here. We are not any European bubble but the discussion was looking at the size of the traffic. With 4 daily flights to CUR from AMS, I don't think any other islands in the Caribbean has that. Most of this traffic is due to the historical ties we have with the Netherlands as both locals (living in CUR and the Netherlands) and citizens from the Netherlands itself fly the route.

A388



I see more parallels between CUR and BGI than with PTP. For historical reasons UK travelers prefer BGI (to the more US oriented MBJ) just as Dutch tourists prefer CUR to AUA. Even though the very heavy pandemic in the French Antilles has depressed travel from France I still see 3 flights arriving from Paris to PTP. From AMS only one flight to CUR wasnt shared with other islands. This winter BGI will be seeing more than 4 daily flights once one adds up BA, VS and TUI.

Last summer I was seeing as many as 8 flights into PTP from PAR. Guadeloupe folks are considerably less likely to travel outside of a Francophone bubble when compared to you guys who will happily jump on a plane and fly to points outside of the Netherlands and the ABC.

CUR is like TAB in terms of the US market. I guess South American travelers were very lucrative in times past so CUR ignored the North Americans, with the result being that AUA got the US traveler in a huge way.. But pre pandemic this market was beginning to develop. I suspect that the extreme dependence on Dutch travel is more because the South American market has gone dead for obvious reasons.

Also if/when we get to post pandemic and more travel resumes to DR/Cuba will CUR get as much travel from the Netherlands by Dutch tourists?
 
User avatar
Gonzalo
Posts: 1884
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:43 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Sep 21, 2021 7:57 pm

Hello everybody, please excuse me if I use this thread with the purpose of gathering some fresh information from you, let's hope someone can help. I have a flight booked with COPA airlines for November 17th, with destination SXM. I've been checking the SXM Daily Herald web to know some news about the situation on "the friendly island" and while the border is open, the sanitary situation as a whole is very unstable, with the French side having lot of infections at one point, and then the Dutch side having more Covid cases, like I said, a constantly changing situation despite the vaccines. Probably as a consequence of this scenario, the airline ( COPA ) is indeed NOT flying to the island, and when you try to book flights to SXM via COPA, the site just don't get any flight available, at any date in the coming months. Do some of you know something about COPA plans for the future in regards with SXM ? Is there a chance that COPA just withdrawn the route definitely ? What do you recommend as a course of action ? Maybe changing the dates hoping for COPA to resume flights ? Or just try to book a flight with other airline ?

Any feedback will be appreciated.
Cheers!!

Gonzalo
 
A388
Posts: 8139
Joined: Mon May 21, 2001 3:48 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:03 pm

caribny wrote:
A388 wrote:
caribny wrote:
Does CUR get each flight exclusively to itself or is it shared with another island? CUR and AUA are well integrated into the Americas with ample service to the USA and South America with some to the Caribbean, so do not exist as this extension of "Europe in a bubble" as do the French islands, and especially CAY. Pre pandemic CUR was very accessible to anyone and AUA was almost an extension of the USA, receiving very heavy service when one considers its small size and the fact that it isnt a US territory.


Some flights are shared but most of the passengers go to CUR. And no, we don't get ample flights from the Americas. Only AUA does, not CUR. We will have a serious problem if the Dutch traffic isn't here. We are not any European bubble but the discussion was looking at the size of the traffic. With 4 daily flights to CUR from AMS, I don't think any other islands in the Caribbean has that. Most of this traffic is due to the historical ties we have with the Netherlands as both locals (living in CUR and the Netherlands) and citizens from the Netherlands itself fly the route.

A388



I see more parallels between CUR and BGI than with PTP. For historical reasons UK travelers prefer BGI (to the more US oriented MBJ) just as Dutch tourists prefer CUR to AUA. Even though the very heavy pandemic in the French Antilles has depressed travel from France I still see 3 flights arriving from Paris to PTP. From AMS only one flight to CUR wasnt shared with other islands. This winter BGI will be seeing more than 4 daily flights once one adds up BA, VS and TUI.

Last summer I was seeing as many as 8 flights into PTP from PAR. Guadeloupe folks are considerably less likely to travel outside of a Francophone bubble when compared to you guys who will happily jump on a plane and fly to points outside of the Netherlands and the ABC.

CUR is like TAB in terms of the US market. I guess South American travelers were very lucrative in times past so CUR ignored the North Americans, with the result being that AUA got the US traveler in a huge way.. But pre pandemic this market was beginning to develop. I suspect that the extreme dependence on Dutch travel is more because the South American market has gone dead for obvious reasons.

Also if/when we get to post pandemic and more travel resumes to DR/Cuba will CUR get as much travel from the Netherlands by Dutch tourists?


Yes, I agree with that too. CUR is more comparable to BGI. The difference being that we are part of the EU through the Dutch Kingdom. That is my point, nothing else. I think we do get more traffic than TAB. TAB doesn't get any US flights as far as I know. And of course we're not getting more traffic compared to Cuba and the DR. That is comparing apples with pears. No island gets more tourist variety than Cuba and DR. Again, I'm only looking at it from a being part of the Netherlands Kingdom point of view. We're not fully integrated like France is but we're part of the Netherlands Kingdom.

I absolutely agree with you if disregard that and only look at the tourist numbers. In that case we are almost on the bottom of the list :)

A388
 
Brickell305
Posts: 1662
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:07 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:58 pm

A388 wrote:
caribny wrote:
A388 wrote:

Some flights are shared but most of the passengers go to CUR. And no, we don't get ample flights from the Americas. Only AUA does, not CUR. We will have a serious problem if the Dutch traffic isn't here. We are not any European bubble but the discussion was looking at the size of the traffic. With 4 daily flights to CUR from AMS, I don't think any other islands in the Caribbean has that. Most of this traffic is due to the historical ties we have with the Netherlands as both locals (living in CUR and the Netherlands) and citizens from the Netherlands itself fly the route.

A388



I see more parallels between CUR and BGI than with PTP. For historical reasons UK travelers prefer BGI (to the more US oriented MBJ) just as Dutch tourists prefer CUR to AUA. Even though the very heavy pandemic in the French Antilles has depressed travel from France I still see 3 flights arriving from Paris to PTP. From AMS only one flight to CUR wasnt shared with other islands. This winter BGI will be seeing more than 4 daily flights once one adds up BA, VS and TUI.

Last summer I was seeing as many as 8 flights into PTP from PAR. Guadeloupe folks are considerably less likely to travel outside of a Francophone bubble when compared to you guys who will happily jump on a plane and fly to points outside of the Netherlands and the ABC.

CUR is like TAB in terms of the US market. I guess South American travelers were very lucrative in times past so CUR ignored the North Americans, with the result being that AUA got the US traveler in a huge way.. But pre pandemic this market was beginning to develop. I suspect that the extreme dependence on Dutch travel is more because the South American market has gone dead for obvious reasons.

Also if/when we get to post pandemic and more travel resumes to DR/Cuba will CUR get as much travel from the Netherlands by Dutch tourists?


Yes, I agree with that too. CUR is more comparable to BGI. The difference being that we are part of the EU through the Dutch Kingdom. That is my point, nothing else. I think we do get more traffic than TAB. TAB doesn't get any US flights as far as I know. And of course we're not getting more traffic compared to Cuba and the DR. That is comparing apples with pears. No island gets more tourist variety than Cuba and DR. Again, I'm only looking at it from a being part of the Netherlands Kingdom point of view. We're not fully integrated like France is but we're part of the Netherlands Kingdom.

I absolutely agree with you if disregard that and only look at the tourist numbers. In that case we are almost on the bottom of the list :)

A388

Pre-COVID, TAB had a single flight from the US. A once weekly BW flight from JFK. TAB has very few flights from the UK as well. IIRC, it was a once weekly VS flight and a twice weekly BA flight from LGW. The bulk of TAB's tourists are domestic. I'm not sure what the overall number of tourists from Trinidad is though but it could actually leave them with a pretty significant overall tourism number. This all is pre-COVID of course.
 
embraer175e2
Posts: 492
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:47 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:58 am

Wingo will restart competing with avianca on curacao bogota routes. 2twice a week. As of october the 6th.
 
fowlr29
Posts: 92
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:29 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:28 pm

United787 wrote:
fowlr29 wrote:
United787 wrote:

Sorry, meant for SXM.


Airport is the same as is it was in 2021 from a passenger perspective. Work is going on behind the scenes but nothing will change until summer 2023.


I assume you mean "..same as it was in 2019..."? If so, that is crazy that it will be 6 years for reconstruction!?!?!


Yeah my bad 2019. Politics between the Holland the the island government. But progress is being made now.

As to the Winair Twin Otters in STX, it's for pilot checkrides as the sole Twin Otter sim worldwide is in Toronto. With COVID they probably just chose to do the checkrides in the aircraft instead.
 
fowlr29
Posts: 92
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:29 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:33 pm

Gonzalo wrote:
Hello everybody, please excuse me if I use this thread with the purpose of gathering some fresh information from you, let's hope someone can help. I have a flight booked with COPA airlines for November 17th, with destination SXM. I've been checking the SXM Daily Herald web to know some news about the situation on "the friendly island" and while the border is open, the sanitary situation as a whole is very unstable, with the French side having lot of infections at one point, and then the Dutch side having more Covid cases, like I said, a constantly changing situation despite the vaccines. Probably as a consequence of this scenario, the airline ( COPA ) is indeed NOT flying to the island, and when you try to book flights to SXM via COPA, the site just don't get any flight available, at any date in the coming months. Do some of you know something about COPA plans for the future in regards with SXM ? Is there a chance that COPA just withdrawn the route definitely ? What do you recommend as a course of action ? Maybe changing the dates hoping for COPA to resume flights ? Or just try to book a flight with other airline ?

Any feedback will be appreciated.
Cheers!!

Gonzalo


SXM only recently (two days ago) got rid of their banned countries list. Basically all of Latin America was on that list which was why COPA stopped flying to SXM temporarily.

Those banned countries are now on a very-high risk list with new requirements: vaccinated passengers must have a PCR test taken within 48 hours, and unvaccinated passengers within 24 hours. Unrealistic times, and I'm sure not feasible in many cases. The only reason however that SXM made this change was at the request of COPA Airlines through the Sint Maarten Tourism Board. So COPA may put out some news soon, but it all depends if COPA thinks those PCR testing requirements are going to able to be met.

Hope this helps
 
gunnerman
Posts: 1282
Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 7:55 pm

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:06 pm

Brickell305 wrote:
Pre-COVID, TAB had a single flight from the US. A once weekly BW flight from JFK. TAB has very few flights from the UK as well. IIRC, it was a once weekly VS flight and a twice weekly BA flight from LGW. The bulk of TAB's tourists are domestic. I'm not sure what the overall number of tourists from Trinidad is though but it could actually leave them with a pretty significant overall tourism number. This all is pre-COVID of course.

Pre-pandemic Tobago also had a weekly DE flight on Tuesdays, routeing was FRA-TAB-BGI-FRA, but nothing's scheduled for the future yet. Other flights since ceased include Thomas Cook from MAN each week in 2016/17 and 2017/18 and Sunwings from YYZ each week in 2018/19 and 1019/20.

In the old days Caledonian Airways flew LGW-TAB-BGI-LGW.

There won't be any big increase in flights as even before the pandemic tourist numbers plummeted from a peak of 87,796 in 2005 to under 20,000 in 2019 due to various factors such as incompetetence (funding to tourism was actually cut) and competition from Grenada.
 
User avatar
Gonzalo
Posts: 1884
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:43 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:18 pm

SXM only recently (two days ago) got rid of their banned countries list. Basically all of Latin America was on that list which was why COPA stopped flying to SXM temporarily.

Those banned countries are now on a very-high risk list with new requirements: vaccinated passengers must have a PCR test taken within 48 hours, and unvaccinated passengers within 24 hours. Unrealistic times, and I'm sure not feasible in many cases. The only reason however that SXM made this change was at the request of COPA Airlines through the Sint Maarten Tourism Board. So COPA may put out some news soon, but it all depends if COPA thinks those PCR testing requirements are going to able to be met.

Hope this helps[/quote]

Helps a lot indeed, Thanks !!! With this information at least I know the airline has the intention to return to SXM sooner or later, and considering the overall situation, I think the smarter move will be to delay my trip to SXM just a few months ( November is too close in time and I think it is unrealistic to hope the flights will be resumed so soon ).

Best Regards!

G.
 
A388
Posts: 8139
Joined: Mon May 21, 2001 3:48 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:15 pm

gunnerman wrote:
Brickell305 wrote:
Pre-COVID, TAB had a single flight from the US. A once weekly BW flight from JFK. TAB has very few flights from the UK as well. IIRC, it was a once weekly VS flight and a twice weekly BA flight from LGW. The bulk of TAB's tourists are domestic. I'm not sure what the overall number of tourists from Trinidad is though but it could actually leave them with a pretty significant overall tourism number. This all is pre-COVID of course.

Pre-pandemic Tobago also had a weekly DE flight on Tuesdays, routeing was FRA-TAB-BGI-FRA, but nothing's scheduled for the future yet. Other flights since ceased include Thomas Cook from MAN each week in 2016/17 and 2017/18 and Sunwings from YYZ each week in 2018/19 and 1019/20.

In the old days Caledonian Airways flew LGW-TAB-BGI-LGW.

There won't be any big increase in flights as even before the pandemic tourist numbers plummeted from a peak of 87,796 in 2005 to under 20,000 in 2019 due to various factors such as incompetetence (funding to tourism was actually cut) and competition from Grenada.


Pre-pandemic in 2019 we had a 1 x week shared flight from DE from FRA (besides the AMS flights from KL/OR). We also had 2 x daily AA from MIA, 3 x week B6 from JFK and 1 x week UA from EWR seasonal. From South America we got Avianca, Wingo and Viva Air Colombia from BOG, CM from PTY and PY from PBM. In the Caribbean it was BW from POS (2 weekly), Y2 and DO from the Dominican Republic and WM from SXM.

A388
 
caribny
Posts: 864
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:47 am

Re: Caribbean Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:35 am

A388 wrote:
caribny wrote:
A388 wrote:

Some flights are shared but most of the passengers go to CUR. And no, we don't get ample flights from the Americas. Only AUA does, not CUR. We will have a serious problem if the Dutch traffic isn't here. We are not any European bubble but the discussion was looking at the size of the traffic. With 4 daily flights to CUR from AMS, I don't think any other islands in the Caribbean has that. Most of this traffic is due to the historical ties we have with the Netherlands as both locals (living in CUR and the Netherlands) and citizens from the Netherlands itself fly the route.

A388



I see more parallels between CUR and BGI than with PTP. For historical reasons UK travelers prefer BGI (to the more US oriented MBJ) just as Dutch tourists prefer CUR to AUA. Even though the very heavy pandemic in the French Antilles has depressed travel from France I still see 3 flights arriving from Paris to PTP. From AMS only one flight to CUR wasnt shared with other islands. This winter BGI will be seeing more than 4 daily flights once one adds up BA, VS and TUI.

Last summer I was seeing as many as 8 flights into PTP from PAR. Guadeloupe folks are considerably less likely to travel outside of a Francophone bubble when compared to you guys who will happily jump on a plane and fly to points outside of the Netherlands and the ABC.

CUR is like TAB in terms of the US market. I guess South American travelers were very lucrative in times past so CUR ignored the North Americans, with the result being that AUA got the US traveler in a huge way.. But pre pandemic this market was beginning to develop. I suspect that the extreme dependence on Dutch travel is more because the South American market has gone dead for obvious reasons.

Also if/when we get to post pandemic and more travel resumes to DR/Cuba will CUR get as much travel from the Netherlands by Dutch tourists?


Yes, I agree with that too. CUR is more comparable to BGI. The difference being that we are part of the EU through the Dutch Kingdom. That is my point, nothing else. I think we do get more traffic than TAB. TAB doesn't get any US flights as far as I know. And of course we're not getting more traffic compared to Cuba and the DR. That is comparing apples with pears. No island gets more tourist variety than Cuba and DR. Again, I'm only looking at it from a being part of the Netherlands Kingdom point of view. We're not fully integrated like France is but we're part of the Netherlands Kingdom.

I absolutely agree with you if disregard that and only look at the tourist numbers. In that case we are almost on the bottom of the list :)

A388


Question for you. Do you consider yourself to be "European" because that is the legal definition of someone from PTP/FDF? I think that the ABC islands with their links to South America, Caribbean and even the USA, in addition to the EU result in a more complex identity. This is why CUR has (pre pandemic) airlift to a broader range of destinations than FDF has. At some point you guys even had flights from Brazil!

I suspect that AMS isnt the center of your world the way that PAR will be from someone from FDF or CAY, or even PTP. Travel from France to the Antilles is due not only to leisure/VFR but also the complex travel by French bureaucrats in both directions. A fair % of their hospitals are staffed by people from the mainland, and a good % of the civil service in those islands come from the mainland. Even their police force! I think that the ABC (well maybe not Bonaire) are much more locally run so less gov't travel to AMS. PAR to FDF travel is like PAR to Marseilles which is why their travel numbers are so high.

TAB will once again get back its 1w JFK service on BW soon, aimed no doubt at the VFR. My point about TAB is that CUR until maybe about 5 years ago ignored the US market, and as a result has lagged behind AUA, even though it has (at least in my opinion) a more distinctive product. Now that it has increased promotion we were seeing (pre pandemic) more US visitors. AUA is interchangeable with CUN and PUJ. CUR is unique and increasingly this is what people in the more upscale markets want this. It has a cultural blend and Willemstad is increasingly known as a Heritage site and a walkable city with less of the poverty that visitors might encounter in some other Caribbean islands. TABs problem is that they are tied to a nation which assigns no value to tourism, and in fact even boasts that they do not need it.

Also TAB has a domestic tourism market, which might also be why their international marketing is sloppy. POS TAB is a big market with BW (pre pandemic) running maybe as many as 500k travelers R/T. Without the Trinidadian TAB would have no tourism sector. As some else pointed out their international tourism arrivals have collapsed.

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