baje427 wrote:

Does anyone know why so many of the BW flights into BGI are being cancelled? I assume it's due to poor loads . I noticed CM flew to BGI today does anyone know why ? Given the flight numbers it was not a resumption of service.

Over the past weeks odd CM flights have been shown on PTY flights of the day screens, PBM among those.
My guess is: (1) Repatriation flights.. CM passengers getting to/from BGI - or - (2) Cruise ships (crew) traffic, a number of cruise ships are on Barbadian waters awaiting where to be deployed.

maverick4002 wrote:

caribny wrote:

maverick4002 wrote:

You have a vendetta against BW dont you? All of your comments are so so critical of them. You are acting as if when B6 and AA dont have monopolies that their prices are not high. It is called capitalism / business, it is what it is. If BW is pricing their flights higher they are probably getting the patronage to break even. I am sure their revenue counters have much more data than you. If they see they are losing business they will adjust accordinglt. Give them some credit for running a competent airline (pre-covid at least).

I never said that BW was a bad airline. My problem is the Trinicentric arrogance of its management which it inherited from BWIA. If an important market has complaints about the product that you provide you respond. BW didnt and so now B6 and AA are eating their dinner.

For years Bajans and others complained about BWIA overflying their islands when they were overbooked out of POS. An annual event at BGI after Crop Over was Bajans complaining about being abandoned when BWIA arrived from POS full with passengers to JFK (over booked) and then stranding Bajans who had booked seats months before. Reported in the Bajan papers. And yes BWIA used to have a solid cadre of "loyal" Bajans but they lost them. We will see if BW will get them back now they are struggling with a weekly JFK BGI service.

Look, BW is a trinidad airline. Trinidad provides the funds so it will be Trini centric. You dont like it, then got to AA and B6 who are Americna focused. Six of one half a dozen of the other. And you are delusional if you think those two airlines came to GEO because of BW's bad product and that they care so much about Guyana. THEY ARE THERE ONLY BECUASE OF THE NEW FOUND OIL RESERVES. And I'd like some receipts about B6/AA eating BW's dinner in GEO right now?


When they took over Air Jamaica's routes Jamaicans were forced to wait for HOURS at JFK while they saw planes taking off ON TIME for POS. What a bad first impression that reinforced their skepticism. Now BW is marginal on the JFK KIN, the only North American route left out of Jamaica. They are now begging back into JFK BGI and I bet that Mia Motley is not given them a cent for this route.

All this not because BW is a bad carrier. To the contrary its inflight service is well regarded, despite its suboptimal IFE. Its the management parked at Piarco who are to blame.


I will suggest to you that if BW has only 3 out of 14 flights ex JFK to GEO, when they once had 10 out of 12 then BW could NOT be doing well. Yes this is business. When a company uses its monopoly to exploit the market it makes it easy for others to enter. Its all business and not an anti T&T vendetta.


.

I can't speak about B6 as I have no statistics on them yet but you can see AA made quick inroads on the JFK-GEO route pre-pandemic. They had good loads and actually carried more passengers on GEO-JFK within two months of starting the route. Now obviously, loads alone do not tell the full story of how successful a route is but it at least shows that NYC-GEO passengers were willing to fly AA in significant numbers. What was more surprising to me though was B6's performance on FLL-POS. That was a route BW used to own B6 on. It had better loads AND carried more passengers consistently. B6 ended up having better loads once it right-sized its capacity and even carried more passengers on certain months. All this of course was pre-pandemic and who knows what either route looks like now. I will say though, that it's pretty likely that AA is flying the most JFK-GEO passengers as it's a daily service compared to its competitors who are 4x and 3x weekly.

baje427 wrote:

Anyone know why so many of the BW flights into BGI are being cancelled?

Likely insufficient loads. I didnt see BGI JFK working any way. B6 has been dominant on this route and loads are clearly low so I do not see people looking for an alternate. I wonder if the VFR in NYC is even aware of it. Clearly outbound travel from BGI is quite depressed given the economy. They also never resumed service to DOM and GND when they restarted service after the airport reopened post volcanic interruptions.

Brickell305 wrote:

maverick4002 wrote:

caribny wrote:

I never said that BW was a bad airline. My problem is the Trinicentric arrogance of its management which it inherited from BWIA. If an important market has complaints about the product that you provide you respond. BW didnt and so now B6 and AA are eating their dinner.

For years Bajans and others complained about BWIA overflying their islands when they were overbooked out of POS. An annual event at BGI after Crop Over was Bajans complaining about being abandoned when BWIA arrived from POS full with passengers to JFK (over booked) and then stranding Bajans who had booked seats months before. Reported in the Bajan papers. And yes BWIA used to have a solid cadre of "loyal" Bajans but they lost them. We will see if BW will get them back now they are struggling with a weekly JFK BGI service.

Look, BW is a trinidad airline. Trinidad provides the funds so it will be Trini centric. You dont like it, then got to AA and B6 who are Americna focused. Six of one half a dozen of the other. And you are delusional if you think those two airlines came to GEO because of BW's bad product and that they care so much about Guyana. THEY ARE THERE ONLY BECUASE OF THE NEW FOUND OIL RESERVES. And I'd like some receipts about B6/AA eating BW's dinner in GEO right now?


When they took over Air Jamaica's routes Jamaicans were forced to wait for HOURS at JFK while they saw planes taking off ON TIME for POS. What a bad first impression that reinforced their skepticism. Now BW is marginal on the JFK KIN, the only North American route left out of Jamaica. They are now begging back into JFK BGI and I bet that Mia Motley is not given them a cent for this route.

All this not because BW is a bad carrier. To the contrary its inflight service is well regarded, despite its suboptimal IFE. Its the management parked at Piarco who are to blame.


I will suggest to you that if BW has only 3 out of 14 flights ex JFK to GEO, when they once had 10 out of 12 then BW could NOT be doing well. Yes this is business. When a company uses its monopoly to exploit the market it makes it easy for others to enter. Its all business and not an anti T&T vendetta.


.

I can't speak about B6 as I have no statistics on them yet but you can see AA made quick inroads on the JFK-GEO route pre-pandemic. They had good loads and actually carried more passengers on GEO-JFK within two months of starting the route. Now obviously, loads alone do not tell the full story of how successful a route is but it at least shows that NYC-GEO passengers were willing to fly AA in significant numbers. What was more surprising to me though was B6's performance on FLL-POS. That was a route BW used to own B6 on. It had better loads AND carried more passengers consistently. B6 ended up having better loads once it right-sized its capacity and even carried more passengers on certain months. All this of course was pre-pandemic and who knows what either route looks like now. I will say though, that it's pretty likely that AA is flying the most JFK-GEO passengers as it's a daily service compared to its competitors who are 4x and 3x weekly.

Guyanese "love to hate" BW and the BW CEO is fully aware of this, though unwilling/unable to address the issues raised. He must tire of his apology tours where he has to face down Guyanese gov't officials, media and the business sector. Complaints focus on fares (especially to JFK) as everyone concedes that the "Bound to Wait In Airport/Better Walk If Able" days are long gone, and inflight ambience still remains good. Yes IFE is suboptimal but the deployment of the MAX should resolve that, especially given the background of the current CEO.

B6 does well in the Caribbean VFR markets ex JFK and I do not see that GEO will be an exception. The question will be whether they take passengers from AA or from BW. AA is apparently working with some of the large travel wholesalers in the NYC Guyana VFR, which will account for its rapid pre pandemic performance.

An important point to note is that many in the Florida VFR markets are NYC remigrants who will use B6 on trips back north. So when they head south B6 has an advantage.

I do not know how post pandemic will impact GEO travel but I do know that BWs dominance (50-60% overall market share) is over. Air fares will also dwindle now that JFK GEO is no longer underserved. Growth will be at the MIA end as unverified reports indicate that GEO is now being over run by North American business/professional travelers. AA owns that route.

Sunrise Haiti is wet leasing 1 ATR42 from Antilles for the summer season

caribny wrote:

baje427 wrote:

Anyone know why so many of the BW flights into BGI are being cancelled?

Likely insufficient loads. I didnt see BGI JFK working any way. B6 has been dominant on this route and loads are clearly low so I do not see people looking for an alternate. I wonder if the VFR in NYC is even aware of it. Clearly outbound travel from BGI is quite depressed given the economy. They also never resumed service to DOM and GND when they restarted service after the airport reopened post volcanic interruptions.

The flight numbers that are being cancelled are the flight numbers and flights that operated before they had stopped operations due to the volcanic eruptions. CAL resumed operations, they have now based 1 ATR @ Ogle instead of 2 ATRs in Barbados. So far they are only flying to/from Ogle to BGI and GND. The DOM and SVD flights are not operating. The BGI/JFK flight did resume but for the last two weeks, it was cancelled. We have to see what happens to it.

baje427 wrote:

Anyone know why so many of the BW flights into BGI are being cancelled?

Perhaps they now realize BGi isn't the great pot of gold everyone on here seems to think it is.

Don’t think we have any pots of gold in the eastern Caribbean since COVID-19. One will need to wait until post C19 to make any such judgements. Let’s have this discussion in December 2021.

baje427 wrote:

I don't see POS reopening their borders until perhaps Q4.

Q4? In what fantasy world do you live?

A388

LimaFoxTango wrote:

Perhaps they now realize BGi isn't the great pot of gold everyone on here seems to think it is.

Specifically to CAL in BGI,
I don't think anyone thinks it is a pot of gold, but with borders in Trinidad closed, where would you have them fly? I commend them for at least trying- given the Government ownership and their historic trends of not thinking outside the box, I think it's a worthwhile experiment at this time.

If we are being realizstic, where would you have them exploit- CAL like many Caribbean businesses cannot compete in LatAm or North America so hunkering down in yoru core market- the Caribbean, and trying to forge a path for yourself is the only option- see ANSA McAL, MASSY, NCBJ Bank, Republic Financial Holdings etc. not sure what you would want them to do but continue to consolidate further in your core Caribbean market and seek out oppotunities (limited) outside of the Caribbean, ANSA in Florida (brewery), MASSY in Colombia (Car Dealerships), NCBJ in Bermuda (Banking) and RFHL in Ghana (Banking).

AA1818

aa1818 wrote:

LimaFoxTango wrote:

Perhaps they now realize BGi isn't the great pot of gold everyone on here seems to think it is.

Specifically to CAL in BGI,
I don't think anyone thinks it is a pot of gold, but with borders in Trinidad closed, where would you have them fly? I commend them for at least trying- given the Government ownership and their historic trends of not thinking outside the box, I think it's a worthwhile experiment at this time.

If we are being realizstic, where would you have them exploit- CAL like many Caribbean businesses cannot compete in LatAm or North America so hunkering down in yoru core market- the Caribbean, and trying to forge a path for yourself is the only option- see ANSA McAL, MASSY, NCBJ Bank, Republic Financial Holdings etc. not sure what you would want them to do but continue to consolidate further in your core Caribbean market and seek out oppotunities (limited) outside of the Caribbean, ANSA in Florida (brewery), MASSY in Colombia (Car Dealerships), NCBJ in Bermuda (Banking) and RFHL in Ghana (Banking).

AA1818

I agree with this. There really is very little place else for them to go. Traffic levels across the Caribbean are depressed. I doubt SXM, ANU, SLU, etc. would have yielded any better results. They could have tried KIN but traffic levels there remain extremely depressed even to the US. For example, AA is down to one daily MIA-KIN this summer. B6 is down to twice daily FLL-KIN with those frequencies being flown on E-190s for the first time. The biggest regional routes out of KIN are GCM and POS. Both are currently closed. So when all is said and done, BGI was as good a place as any to set up shop. The US embassy no longer requiring travel for tourist visas and the eruption in SVD both severely hampered already weak markets and made a bad situation worse. I don’t think any regional carrier is liking what it’s seeing traffic wise at the moment.

baje427 wrote:

LimaFoxTango wrote:

baje427 wrote:

Anyone know why so many of the BW flights into BGI are being cancelled?

Perhaps they now realize BGi isn't the great pot of gold everyone on here seems to think it is.

To be fair only GEO will be the gold pot in the region if they manage their resources well.

Exactly what I am saying. GEO is the only bright spot in the region.

I was looking up flights to Miami from BGI in June- seems they have a very limited schedule- anyone knows why there's no Business Class on offer?
Also noticed the same out of Grenada when i checked possibly flying through GND instead. UVF has Business class seats on offer.

Does anyone know how I can access AA's BGI-MIA-BGI schedule? The AA.com website only shows the flights for a specific day- not even a week's view.

Cheers,
AA1818

aa1818 wrote:

I was looking up flights to Miami from BGI in June- seems they have a very limited schedule- anyone knows why there's no Business Class on offer?
Also noticed the same out of Grenada when i checked possibly flying through GND instead. UVF has Business class seats on offer.

Does anyone know how I can access AA's BGI-MIA-BGI schedule? The AA.com website only shows the flights for a specific day- not even a week's view.

Cheers,
AA1818

Your best bet is probably to go on Google Flights and filter for nonstops on OneWorld airlines or AA specifically.

With only 5 flights per week and 16 business class seats, they are limited and likely sold out on those days.

LimaFoxTango wrote:

baje427 wrote:

Anyone know why so many of the BW flights into BGI are being cancelled?

Perhaps they now realize BGI isn't the great pot of gold everyone on here seems to think it is.

Inter Caribbean went in thinking that it was nirvana and now they struggle to run 2 flights daily into BGI. One from SVD/GND and the other from SLU/DOM. The fact that LI built its in transit lounge is because many into BGI were transferring into other parts of its system and not necessarily BGI O&D.

I think that Mia barked and others fell for her narrative.

windian425 wrote:

With only 5 flights per week and 16 business class seats, they are limited and likely sold out on those days.

I do believe this is the reason as I see business class available on some days and apparently sold out on others.

caribny wrote:

Inter Caribbean went in thinking that it was nirvana and now they struggle to run 2 flights daily into BGI. One from SVD/GND and the other from SLU/DOM. The fact that LI built its in transit lounge is because many into BGI were transferring into other parts of its system and not necessarily BGI O&D.

I think that Mia barked and others fell for her narrative.

Did they expand their fleet or sacrifice other routes to go into BGI? If so then I would agree that they thought it was a treasure trove, but if places like Cayman being closed meant they had spare assets lying around, you cant fault them for exploring an opportunity with the demise of LIAT.

Brickell305 wrote:

windian425 wrote:

With only 5 flights per week and 16 business class seats, they are limited and likely sold out on those days.

I do believe this is the reason as I see business class available on some days and apparently sold out on others.

So I called AA and the agent couldn't understand it. Made a dummy booking and it instantly gave me the option to upgrade with stickers, she confirmed that there were business class seats available, but neither I nor she could book them. Changing my return date, immediately gave me business class on the same date outbound. She couldn't explain it but said she would be lodging it with IT.

Cheers,
AA1818

aa1818 wrote:

caribny wrote:

Inter Caribbean went in thinking that it was nirvana and now they struggle to run 2 flights daily into BGI. One from SVD/GND and the other from SLU/DOM. The fact that LI built its in transit lounge is because many into BGI were transferring into other parts of its system and not necessarily BGI O&D.

I think that Mia barked and others fell for her narrative.

Did they expand their fleet or sacrifice other routes to go into BGI? If so then I would agree that they thought it was a treasure trove, but if places like Cayman being closed meant they had spare assets lying around, you cant fault them for exploring an opportunity with the demise of LIAT.

Brickell305 wrote:

windian425 wrote:

With only 5 flights per week and 16 business class seats, they are limited and likely sold out on those days.

I do believe this is the reason as I see business class available on some days and apparently sold out on others.

So I called AA and the agent couldn't understand it. Made a dummy booking and it instantly gave me the option to upgrade with stickers, she confirmed that there were business class seats available, but neither I nor she could book them. Changing my return date, immediately gave me business class on the same date outbound. She couldn't explain it but said she would be lodging it with IT.

Cheers,
AA1818

I believe they were using assets from previously planned fleet expansion. They've never served GCM or CYB (though I would think both might have been on their radar).

caribny wrote:

LimaFoxTango wrote:

baje427 wrote:

Anyone know why so many of the BW flights into BGI are being cancelled?

Perhaps they now realize BGI isn't the great pot of gold everyone on here seems to think it is.

Inter Caribbean went in thinking that it was nirvana and now they struggle to run 2 flights daily into BGI. One from SVD/GND and the other from SLU/DOM. The fact that LI built its in transit lounge is because many into BGI were transferring into other parts of its system and not necessarily BGI O&D.

I think that Mia barked and others fell for her narrative.

Regarding LI's BGI hub being a result of transfer and not necessarily O&D is incorrect. Barbados has strong ties with the Eastern Caribbean, so much so the grouping constitutes BGI's largest trading partner and lets not talk about the social aspects. A look at LI previous schedules especially to SLU GND & DOM would suggest that there was a strong local market to and from BGI. I am pretty sure that LIAT's internal numbers would bare out that BGI was in at least 50% of their top O&D pairs.

Also given that JY and BW have no obligations to BGI it can be reasonably assumed that more than the bark of a PM led to their setting up operations in BGI.

Regards
BWIA 772

BWIA 772 wrote:

caribny wrote:

LimaFoxTango wrote:

Perhaps they now realize BGI isn't the great pot of gold everyone on here seems to think it is.

Inter Caribbean went in thinking that it was nirvana and now they struggle to run 2 flights daily into BGI. One from SVD/GND and the other from SLU/DOM. The fact that LI built its in transit lounge is because many into BGI were transferring into other parts of its system and not necessarily BGI O&D.

I think that Mia barked and others fell for her narrative.

Regarding LI's BGI hub being a result of transfer and not necessarily O&D is incorrect. Barbados has strong ties with the Eastern Caribbean, so much so the grouping constitutes BGI's largest trading partner and lets not talk about the social aspects. A look at LI previous schedules especially to SLU GND & DOM would suggest that there was a strong local market to and from BGI. I am pretty sure that LIAT's internal numbers would bare out that BGI was in at least 50% of their top O&D pairs.

Also given that JY and BW have no obligations to BGI it can be reasonably assumed that more than the bark of a PM led to their setting up operations in BGI.

Regards
BWIA 772

I mentioned this sometime ago and many disagreed. Caribny is very much correct. Majority of the BGI numbers were simply passing through and BGI made a mint off it because of transit taxes. As the US embassy numbers declined over the years, so did the O&D traffic. As SVD, GND, UVF got their own direct flights from North America and Europe, less and less people needed to transit BGI via LI.

BWIA 772 wrote:

caribny wrote:

LimaFoxTango wrote:

Perhaps they now realize BGI isn't the great pot of gold everyone on here seems to think it is.

Inter Caribbean went in thinking that it was nirvana and now they struggle to run 2 flights daily into BGI. One from SVD/GND and the other from SLU/DOM. The fact that LI built its in transit lounge is because many into BGI were transferring into other parts of its system and not necessarily BGI O&D.

I think that Mia barked and others fell for her narrative.

Regarding LI's BGI hub being a result of transfer and not necessarily O&D is incorrect. Barbados has strong ties with the Eastern Caribbean, so much so the grouping constitutes BGI's largest trading partner and lets not talk about the social aspects. A look at LI previous schedules especially to SLU GND & DOM would suggest that there was a strong local market to and from BGI. I am pretty sure that LIAT's internal numbers would bare out that BGI was in at least 50% of their top O&D pairs.

Also given that JY and BW have no obligations to BGI it can be reasonably assumed that more than the bark of a PM led to their setting up operations in BGI.

Regards
BWIA 772

With the demise of LI loud voices from Mia exclaiming that BGI was the center of the Eastern Caribbean universe. Others here claiming that BGI was this big lucrative market and that all other routes could be ignored. BW knew better so was cautious running less than daily service to SLU and to SVD/GND. JY came galloping in buying into Mia's narrative by planning 6-7 flights daily out of BGI. This quickly collapsed to a mere 2 daily, even after DOM was added. 3S also jumped in, though is now gone due to pandemic issues in the French Antilles.

When one added JY, 3S and BW on the BGI SLU this route had MORE service than pre pandemic. Now that only JY is left standing its 5x weekly to that island with a 30 seater. Some of this is shared with DOM. And this has been the case since last year so this isnt the volcanic ash to blame.

LI made a decision to route all of its southern routes (aside from its POS flights) via BGI. So some one flying from GND to SVD had to fly via BGI. People travelling from the Windwards to GEO had to fly via BGI. All northbound GEO/GND/SVD and even at times DOM travel had to be via BGI. So this made BGI more important than it actually was.

So here are the facts. POS is a genuine leisure market for BGI with most staying in hotels. GEO. SVD, and SLU are VFR markets with most staying in homes. The rest of the Eastern Caribbean consists of people in BGI for 1-3 days, meaning that this was mainly US passport travel. Travel into BGI from ANU, SVD, DOM and GND was multiple times that of BGI origin travel to those islands. BGI was a DESTINATION. NOT a point of origin, and now many of the reasons for travel to BGI will be gone, even post pandemic. SVD will see improved connectivity starting with VS from this summer. I expect B6 to do JFK SVD once the Sandals resort on that island opens.

I think this discussion on BGI is missing a few points. Barbados as the southern hub made sense for a few reasons:

1. Barbados has the US embassy and as a result would have attracted travel from the rest of the OECS as long as it required people to show up in person. That’s no longer the case so that hampers demand significantly. Add the fact that travel to/from the US is down now anyway due to the pandemic and even if they still were requiring people to show up in person, the numbers would be down.

2. BGI was the best market in the southern Caribbean for international connections. A lot of the traffic BGI used to receive was people continuing on to other destinations outside of the region. This was especially the case for SVD and DOM. However, this also occurred for people originating in places like GND and OGL as well. There’s no other airport that LI served in the Southern Caribbean that could perform that function. POS didn’t have the same level of LON flights. LI flew to SLU, not UVF so no connections there. And GND/SVD pale in comparison with air service to non-regional destinations.

3. BGI also generated a fair bit of business travel as well. As the (former in some cases) regional headquarters for businesses like Scotia, Sagicor and FirstCaribbean there was travel from the E. Caribbean to Barbados for business.

4. BGI has UWI-Cave Hill and that also generates traffic.

5. BGI had a significant VFR market to places like OGL and SVD. I don’t think an OGL-SLU flight, for example, would be interchangeable with an OGL-BGI flight.

It almost sounds like some of you are saying that had LI chosen to set its southern hub anywhere else e.g. in SLU or SVD, that it would’ve been just as big or performed just as well and I disagree on that point.

Brickell305,

You are right on the money especially points 3 through 5 which speak to BGI being a generator of originating traffic. I did not think that those points had to be explicitly stated in forum where people purport to know the workings of regional travel within the Caribbean. However the obvious is ignored to push a particular narrative.

Caribny
When LI collapsed it was stated by the BGI PM that there was enough capacity amongst other regional carriers to fill the void. I'd say given what happened it seems her statement seemed to be true. Additionally what has taken place matters not given COVID, what takes place once the region opens up is of interest. Specifically if any of the carriers will offer the type of connections that Brickell noted in his second point.

On BGI POS, I think that you are completely wrong and referencing a situation that existed in the 90s up to the early 2000s. Now BGI POS pre covid was primarily business, VFR and then a distant leisure as third (except carnival). However to the trinis on this forum what say you on this matter?

Has anyone heard of a new cargo operation out of ANU called Wadadlicargo? I saw it on Linkedin and decided to check out the website. Not a lot of info but if true that would be nice and the livery is quite smart.

https://www.wadadlicargo.com/

Regards
BWIA 772

Maybe I can chime in with some perspective.

BGI is the second-largest aviation market in the Eastern Caribbean behind POS and the third-largest business market outside of POS and GEO. BGI-POS route is more business and VFR than anything else, so CAL decided to break up the milk run flights. They have early morning flights in both directions because businesses demand it; UWI, Sagicor, RBTT, RBCTT, Massy, Ansa group, Digicel, and more. There are many other business and governmental travel on that route that CAL commands. There were 3 daily flights between the two countries with a 4th sometimes on the business periods to complement VFR traffic from students returning on each side and family.
In terms of leisure, outside of Tobago, more Trinis are going to GND and UVF for hotel stays compared to BGI. This trend began to occur for about 15 years or so when those two countries got more hotels and did better advertisement packages than BGI. Even though Trinis do go to BGI for leisure, it has always been a distant third.
It is also why CAL is doing BGI-OGL to capture the same business traffic between those two countries and most likely when things get back to normal, there will be 2 daily flights between Guyana and Barbados.

BGI also generates a fair amount of traffic on its own right from the local market with the country itself having a good GDP, even outside the US embassy trips. With the embassy giving people more ways to reapply for visas some traffic will be lost, but it is not going to be a very large chunk
Honestly, I would like to see where things go when most of this Covid ends.

baje427 wrote:

Does anyone know why so many of the BW flights into BGI are being cancelled? I assume it's due to poor loads . I noticed CM flew to BGI today does anyone know why ? Given the flight numbers it was not a resumption of service.

Not canceled but a switch in flight numbers as they are only currently operating BGI-GND 2w and BGI-OGL 2w. DOM, SVD and JFK are slated to return in June along with MBJ in July.

I find it odd that this discussion about BGI is all about regional traffic as if international traffic doesn't matter. Pre-pandemic BGI had the most flights from the UK, with a winter peak of 12 BA flights a week (from LGW) and 11 VS flights a week (from LGW, MAN and LHR). Yes, it's mostly inbound traffic but isn't the entire Caribbean region mainly inbound? And the hotels with 6,300 rooms appreciate the average stays of more than 10 nights per guest.

Barbados also has a substantial number of British people living there, and they account for some of the traffic originating from BGI.

gunnerman wrote:

I find it odd that this discussion about BGI is all about regional traffic as if international traffic doesn't matter. Pre-pandemic BGI had the most flights from the UK, with a winter peak of 12 BA flights a week (from LGW) and 11 VS flights a week (from LGW, MAN and LHR). Yes, it's mostly inbound traffic but isn't the entire Caribbean region mainly inbound? And the hotels with 6,300 rooms appreciate the average stays of more than 10 nights per guest.

Barbados also has a substantial number of British people living there, and they account for some of the traffic originating from BGI.

No one said international traffic doesn't matter but the discussion was around the decision making and success or lack there of or regional carriers (BW and JY) who flocked to BGI upon the demise of LI. International traffic to BGI is strong and will rebound in time, but most tourists do not island hop (unfortunately). Feel free to share your thoughts on BGI's international traffic though- but understand that the other members were discussing regional carriers and thus regional demand and BGI specifically as a hub or focus city for carriers. BA for example is a terminator into BGI, it does not use BGI to shuttle pax to other islands as it does through ANU and UVF.

@BWIA772 as it relates to Barbados/ Trinidad traffic- the tourism connection has been strengthening over the years. Many Trinis own properties in BGI (not sure that makes them VFR but it's tourism. A lot of Trinidadians visit Barbados annually (debunking the myth that it is "too" expensive).

Cheers,
AA1818

Brickell305 wrote:

I think this discussion on BGI is missing a few points. Barbados as the southern hub made sense for a few reasons:

1. Barbados has the US embassy and as a result would have attracted travel from the rest of the OECS as long as it required people to show up in person. That’s no longer the case so that hampers demand significantly. Add the fact that travel to/from the US is down now anyway due to the pandemic and even if they still were requiring people to show up in person, the numbers would be down.

2. BGI was the best market in the southern Caribbean for international connections. A lot of the traffic BGI used to receive was people continuing on to other destinations outside of the region. This was especially the case for SVD and DOM. However, this also occurred for people originating in places like GND and OGL as well. There’s no other airport that LI served in the Southern Caribbean that could perform that function. POS didn’t have the same level of LON flights. LI flew to SLU, not UVF so no connections there. And GND/SVD pale in comparison with air service to non-regional destinations.

3. BGI also generated a fair bit of business travel as well. As the (former in some cases) regional headquarters for businesses like Scotia, Sagicor and FirstCaribbean there was travel from the E. Caribbean to Barbados for business.

4. BGI has UWI-Cave Hill and that also generates traffic.

5. BGI had a significant VFR market to places like OGL and SVD. I don’t think an OGL-SLU flight, for example, would be interchangeable with an OGL-BGI flight.

It almost sounds like some of you are saying that had LI chosen to set its southern hub anywhere else e.g. in SLU or SVD, that it would’ve been just as big or performed just as well and I disagree on that point.

A Report on Free Movement in the Caribbean published by the CARICOM Secretariat reported that BGI generated 36k of intra CARICOM travel, which was LESS than even Jamaica and St Vincent, and considerably behind Guyana (72k) and T&T (91k). 1/3 of this to T&T and another 5k to Jamaica and similar numbers to GEO. So really not much left to the OECS. Certainly NOT enough to merit a hub.

BGI attracted 147k in travel with 110k of this landing and the rest in transit. A fair % of this in transit travel is from SVD and this will decline as AA expands, VS begins service and likely B6 will arrive once Sandals opens in that island. DOM also uses ANU, SXM and SJU so BGI isnt that important. With all the service that GND now gets from the UK and the USA I cannot imagine that BGI is that important. The days of SLU using BGI as an in transit point are long gone, as in some instances UVF offers even better connectivity, especially in the winter.

Aside from GEO, POS, SVD, KIN and SLU most of the CARICOM visitors were in BGI for less than 3 days (60%). I suspect that without US passport travel arrivals from GND, DOM, ANU and SKB would be very low, and as we see these islands do not attract much travel out of BGI.

So let us look at OGL/SLU. Once POS reopens BW will service that route via POS. Ditto people traveling to SVD and GND. BW/LI will figure out how to get people from OGL to points like ANU, EIS. SXM and SKB. So not much need for BGI as a hub. With less US passport, and declining business travel Inter Caribbean can maintain a small BGI hub. BW and LI will not need to have a BGI hub. And with 55% of intra CARICOM travel arriving into BGI from POS, GEO and KIN most of this will be on BW. In fact OGL BGI is better served by having service originating from OGL, maybe as a continuation of POS flights once the latter reopens. This has been BWs only successful BGI pandemic route, as even the KIN ANU BGI has had to be cut (now down to weekly).

BGI was a hub because it was in the best interests for LI, especially as the airline was largely controlled by BGI (largest shareholder and several top executives being Bajan). Going forward less necessary. There is already significant POS GEO/OGL travel and that will increase even more as POS reopens. This might even over take POS BGI as the largest intra CARICOM route.

aa1818 wrote:

[F.

@BWIA772 as it relates to Barbados/ Trinidad traffic- the tourism connection has been strengthening over the years. Many Trinis own properties in BGI (not sure that makes them VFR but it's tourism. A lot of Trinidadians visit Barbados annually (debunking the myth that it is "too" expensive).

Cheers,
AA1818

The talk is about regional travel because its about BGIs role as a hub. Clearly BGI will remain a strong international destination, especially out of the UK. The only consistently served out of the high end LHR and also it has no need for tag on flights.

In fact T&T is by far the largest source of CARICOM "traditional" tourists, staying in all types of facilities, and who stay for more than 3 days, with many for as long as a week, so strongly contribute to the BGI economy. The other CARICOM countries mainly generate VFR visitors who stay with friends and relatives.

With an expected decline of US passports T&T will become even more important as a source of regional visitors. Maybe a "new rich" will emerge in Guyana joining T&T as a source of bona fide hotel staying tourists. But this will be on BW so it will not necessitate a BGI hub.

Regarding UK-BGI, fly-cruises also inflate inbound traffic as BGI is a major homeport. Very few Pax go island hoping, relatively speaking, especially as international connectivity improves amongst islands.

caribny wrote:

Brickell305 wrote:

I think this discussion on BGI is missing a few points. Barbados as the southern hub made sense for a few reasons:

1. Barbados has the US embassy and as a result would have attracted travel from the rest of the OECS as long as it required people to show up in person. That’s no longer the case so that hampers demand significantly. Add the fact that travel to/from the US is down now anyway due to the pandemic and even if they still were requiring people to show up in person, the numbers would be down.

2. BGI was the best market in the southern Caribbean for international connections. A lot of the traffic BGI used to receive was people continuing on to other destinations outside of the region. This was especially the case for SVD and DOM. However, this also occurred for people originating in places like GND and OGL as well. There’s no other airport that LI served in the Southern Caribbean that could perform that function. POS didn’t have the same level of LON flights. LI flew to SLU, not UVF so no connections there. And GND/SVD pale in comparison with air service to non-regional destinations.

3. BGI also generated a fair bit of business travel as well. As the (former in some cases) regional headquarters for businesses like Scotia, Sagicor and FirstCaribbean there was travel from the E. Caribbean to Barbados for business.

4. BGI has UWI-Cave Hill and that also generates traffic.

5. BGI had a significant VFR market to places like OGL and SVD. I don’t think an OGL-SLU flight, for example, would be interchangeable with an OGL-BGI flight.

It almost sounds like some of you are saying that had LI chosen to set its southern hub anywhere else e.g. in SLU or SVD, that it would’ve been just as big or performed just as well and I disagree on that point.

A Report on Free Movement in the Caribbean published by the CARICOM Secretariat reported that BGI generated 36k of intra CARICOM travel, which was LESS than even Jamaica and St Vincent, and considerably behind Guyana (72k) and T&T (91k). 1/3 of this to T&T and another 5k to Jamaica and similar numbers to GEO. So really not much left to the OECS. Certainly NOT enough to merit a hub.

BGI attracted 147k in travel with 110k of this landing and the rest in transit. A fair % of this in transit travel is from SVD and this will decline as AA expands, VS begins service and likely B6 will arrive once Sandals opens in that island. DOM also uses ANU, SXM and SJU so BGI isnt that important. With all the service that GND now gets from the UK and the USA I cannot imagine that BGI is that important. The days of SLU using BGI as an in transit point are long gone, as in some instances UVF offers even better connectivity, especially in the winter.

Aside from GEO, POS, SVD, KIN and SLU most of the CARICOM visitors were in BGI for less than 3 days (60%). I suspect that without US passport travel arrivals from GND, DOM, ANU and SKB would be very low, and as we see these islands do not attract much travel out of BGI.

So let us look at OGL/SLU. Once POS reopens BW will service that route via POS. Ditto people traveling to SVD and GND. BW/LI will figure out how to get people from OGL to points like ANU, EIS. SXM and SKB. So not much need for BGI as a hub. With less US passport, and declining business travel Inter Caribbean can maintain a small BGI hub. BW and LI will not need to have a BGI hub. And with 55% of intra CARICOM travel arriving into BGI from POS, GEO and KIN most of this will be on BW. In fact OGL BGI is better served by having service originating from OGL, maybe as a continuation of POS flights once the latter reopens. This has been BWs only successful BGI pandemic route, as even the KIN ANU BGI has had to be cut (now down to weekly).

BGI was a hub because it was in the best interests for LI, especially as the airline was largely controlled by BGI (largest shareholder and several top executives being Bajan). Going forward less necessary. There is already significant POS GEO/OGL travel and that will increase even more as POS reopens. This might even over take POS BGI as the largest intra CARICOM route.

On the point about how much intra-regional travel is generated from BGI, that number is not surprising. BGI is a much smaller population than Jamaica, POS and OGL. With regard to SVD, that number being elevated is also understandable as people traveling from SVD to anywhere else in the world generally had to fly to another island first and then self connect onward from there. So even, their non-regional travel would register as regional. I'm also sure if it were possible to check, a big bulk of that regional travel (if not the majority) would be to BGI, with POS coming in second. With regard to inbound travel, the 147K number you're citing is actually quite high especially when compared to other regional destinations.

SLU had 83K Caribbean arrivals in 2019: https://www.stats.gov.lc/subjects/economy/tourism/
ANU had 31K Caribbean arrivals in 2016 and 29K in 2017. These are the most recent numbers I could find: https://statistics.gov.ag/wp-content/up ... Review.pdf
GND had 25K Caribbean arrivals in 2017: https://gov.gd/motc/statistics
SVD had 25K Caribbean arrivals in 2017, 24K in 2018 and 21K in 2019: http://stats.gov.vc/stats/?page_id=858
Even POS numbers would be less than the figure you cited for BGI: https://cso.gov.tt/subjects/travel-and- ... tatistics/
POS categorized North America, Canada and Europe and listed everyone else as "Other" and that figure (which encompasses not only the Caribbean) is smaller than the Caribbean arrival number you cited for Barbados.

So if we're saying that BGI's numbers don't merit a hub, where exactly would?

Brickell305 wrote:

caribny wrote:

Brickell305 wrote:

I think this discussion on BGI is missing a few points. Barbados as the southern hub made sense for a few reasons:

1. Barbados has the US embassy and as a result would have attracted travel from the rest of the OECS as long as it required people to show up in person. That’s no longer the case so that hampers demand significantly. Add the fact that travel to/from the US is down now anyway due to the pandemic and even if they still were requiring people to show up in person, the numbers would be down.

2. BGI was the best market in the southern Caribbean for international connections. A lot of the traffic BGI used to receive was people continuing on to other destinations outside of the region. This was especially the case for SVD and DOM. However, this also occurred for people originating in places like GND and OGL as well. There’s no other airport that LI served in the Southern Caribbean that could perform that function. POS didn’t have the same level of LON flights. LI flew to SLU, not UVF so no connections there. And GND/SVD pale in comparison with air service to non-regional destinations.

3. BGI also generated a fair bit of business travel as well. As the (former in some cases) regional headquarters for businesses like Scotia, Sagicor and FirstCaribbean there was travel from the E. Caribbean to Barbados for business.

4. BGI has UWI-Cave Hill and that also generates traffic.

5. BGI had a significant VFR market to places like OGL and SVD. I don’t think an OGL-SLU flight, for example, would be interchangeable with an OGL-BGI flight.

It almost sounds like some of you are saying that had LI chosen to set its southern hub anywhere else e.g. in SLU or SVD, that it would’ve been just as big or performed just as well and I disagree on that point.

A Report on Free Movement in the Caribbean published by the CARICOM Secretariat reported that BGI generated 36k of intra CARICOM travel, which was LESS than even Jamaica and St Vincent, and considerably behind Guyana (72k) and T&T (91k). 1/3 of this to T&T and another 5k to Jamaica and similar numbers to GEO. So really not much left to the OECS. Certainly NOT enough to merit a hub.

BGI attracted 147k in travel with 110k of this landing and the rest in transit. A fair % of this in transit travel is from SVD and this will decline as AA expands, VS begins service and likely B6 will arrive once Sandals opens in that island. DOM also uses ANU, SXM and SJU so BGI isnt that important. With all the service that GND now gets from the UK and the USA I cannot imagine that BGI is that important. The days of SLU using BGI as an in transit point are long gone, as in some instances UVF offers even better connectivity, especially in the winter.

Aside from GEO, POS, SVD, KIN and SLU most of the CARICOM visitors were in BGI for less than 3 days (60%). I suspect that without US passport travel arrivals from GND, DOM, ANU and SKB would be very low, and as we see these islands do not attract much travel out of BGI.

So let us look at OGL/SLU. Once POS reopens BW will service that route via POS. Ditto people traveling to SVD and GND. BW/LI will figure out how to get people from OGL to points like ANU, EIS. SXM and SKB. So not much need for BGI as a hub. With less US passport, and declining business travel Inter Caribbean can maintain a small BGI hub. BW and LI will not need to have a BGI hub. And with 55% of intra CARICOM travel arriving into BGI from POS, GEO and KIN most of this will be on BW. In fact OGL BGI is better served by having service originating from OGL, maybe as a continuation of POS flights once the latter reopens. This has been BWs only successful BGI pandemic route, as even the KIN ANU BGI has had to be cut (now down to weekly).

BGI was a hub because it was in the best interests for LI, especially as the airline was largely controlled by BGI (largest shareholder and several top executives being Bajan). Going forward less necessary. There is already significant POS GEO/OGL travel and that will increase even more as POS reopens. This might even over take POS BGI as the largest intra CARICOM route.

On the point about how much intra-regional travel is generated from BGI, that number is not surprising. BGI is a much smaller population than Jamaica, POS and OGL. With regard to SVD, that number being elevated is also understandable as people traveling from SVD to anywhere else in the world generally had to fly to another island first and then self connect onward from there. So even, their non-regional travel would register as regional. I'm also sure if it were possible to check, a big bulk of that regional travel (if not the majority) would be to BGI, with POS coming in second. With regard to inbound travel, the 147K number you're citing is actually quite high especially when compared to other regional destinations.

SLU had 83K Caribbean arrivals in 2019: https://www.stats.gov.lc/subjects/economy/tourism/
ANU had 31K Caribbean arrivals in 2016 and 29K in 2017. These are the most recent numbers I could find: https://statistics.gov.ag/wp-content/up ... Review.pdf
GND had 25K Caribbean arrivals in 2017: https://gov.gd/motc/statistics
SVD had 25K Caribbean arrivals in 2017, 24K in 2018 and 21K in 2019: http://stats.gov.vc/stats/?page_id=858
Even POS numbers would be less than the figure you cited for BGI: https://cso.gov.tt/subjects/travel-and- ... tatistics/
POS categorized North America, Canada and Europe and listed everyone else as "Other" and that figure (which encompasses not only the Caribbean) is smaller than the Caribbean arrival number you cited for Barbados.

So if we're saying that BGI's numbers don't merit a hub, where exactly would?

POS will be a limited hub because BW is based there, and will feed GEO/PBM to other parts of CARICOM. ANU with a small hub because LI is based there, and it will distribute people from points south to SXM/EIS and to the US islands once they resume service. Those will remain the largest intra regional Eastern Caribbean carriers. Inter Caribbean, will have a small hub in BGI but far more limited than what LI once had because it will be ,limited to O&D traffic between BGI and the Windward islands. Given that a high % of travel to BGI was US passport focused we will see drops from other parts of the OECS, including DOM and GND..

I happen to think that outbound travel from BGI to other parts of CARICOM was hit because BGI in particular enjoyed cheap fares to MIA and Bajans had an easier time getting US visas. Kind of hard to get a Bajan to fly to SLU for leisure purposes when MIA is cheaper, given the high regional taxes. SLUs numbers are highly influenced by people arriving from FDF on ferries. DOM enjoys similar from PTP.

Eurowings Discover, LH's new long-haul leisure unit, will launch flights to PUJ from MUC in March 2022. The flights will be operated 2x weekly.

https://www.lufthansagroup.com/en/newsr ... unich.html

BGI-FRA is also listed to operate this winter 2021/22.

Just saw that KLM will be operating AMS-BGI-POS 3w from this winter.
https://www.travmagazine.nl/klm-naar-ze ... de-winter/
I saw some posts on FB with TUI flying a couple of charters during the pandemic but a new Long Haul to POS is something different.
Maybe we will see Eurowings in TAB also, with the new routes to BGI

Wow KLM to POS is very surprising. Definitely influenced by Shell’s large presence in POS. There continue to be frequent charters to POS from AMS

Fantastic news for both POS and BGI. Finally, there will be better connections onwards to Europe, Asia and other destinations. British Airways connections out of LGW is limited and it is always a nightmare to transfer from Gatwick to Heathrow for onward connections.

caribbean484 wrote:

Just saw that KLM will be operating AMS-BGI-POS 3w from this winter.
https://www.travmagazine.nl/klm-naar-ze ... de-winter/
I saw some posts on FB with TUI flying a couple of charters during the pandemic but a new Long Haul to POS is something different.
Maybe we will see Eurowings in TAB also, with the new routes to BGI

KLM returns to POS after a 28 year absence. KLM first flew to POS in 1938 and was one of the first airlines to fly to Piarco. Pan Am, the very first airline to serve Trinidad, did so with seaplanes and operated a base in Cocorite, just West of Port of Spain. As such KLM has a significant heritage in POS despite its long absence. I think that by serving both POS and BGI they could attract the holiday market out of The Netherlands with BGI while capturing some traffic from POS to the UK and other connections as well as to The Netherlands itself. The route will also give SkyTeam a presence in both islands. This appears to be a plan for the future recovery of the travel market and I wish them well.

KLM have also announced routes to CUN, HKT, MBA and MCO.

Trintocan.

trintocan wrote:

caribbean484 wrote:

Just saw that KLM will be operating AMS-BGI-POS 3w from this winter.
https://www.travmagazine.nl/klm-naar-ze ... de-winter/
I saw some posts on FB with TUI flying a couple of charters during the pandemic but a new Long Haul to POS is something different.
Maybe we will see Eurowings in TAB also, with the new routes to BGI

KLM returns to POS after a 28 year absence. KLM first flew to POS in 1938 and was one of the first airlines to fly to Piarco. Pan Am, the very first airline to serve Trinidad, did so with seaplanes and operated a base in Cocorite, just West of Port of Spain. As such KLM has a significant heritage in POS despite its long absence. I think that by serving both POS and BGI they could attract the holiday market out of The Netherlands with BGI while capturing some traffic from POS to the UK and other connections as well as to The Netherlands itself. The route will also give SkyTeam a presence in both islands. This appears to be a plan for the future recovery of the travel market and I wish them well.

KLM have also announced routes to CUN, HKT, MBA and MCO.

Trintocan.

I remember KL at POS in the early 80s. It used to continue to CUR and many T&T folks used it to go shopping. Cannot recall how many got off from AMS though.

richard757 wrote:

Fantastic news for both POS and BGI. Finally, there will be better connections onwards to Europe, Asia and other destinations. British Airways connections out of LGW is limited and it is always a nightmare to transfer from Gatwick to Heathrow for onward connections.

caribny wrote:

trintocan wrote:

caribbean484 wrote:

Just saw that KLM will be operating AMS-BGI-POS 3w from this winter.
https://www.travmagazine.nl/klm-naar-ze ... de-winter/
I saw some posts on FB with TUI flying a couple of charters during the pandemic but a new Long Haul to POS is something different.
Maybe we will see Eurowings in TAB also, with the new routes to BGI

KLM returns to POS after a 28 year absence. KLM first flew to POS in 1938 and was one of the first airlines to fly to Piarco. Pan Am, the very first airline to serve Trinidad, did so with seaplanes and operated a base in Cocorite, just West of Port of Spain. As such KLM has a significant heritage in POS despite its long absence. I think that by serving both POS and BGI they could attract the holiday market out of The Netherlands with BGI while capturing some traffic from POS to the UK and other connections as well as to The Netherlands itself. The route will also give SkyTeam a presence in both islands. This appears to be a plan for the future recovery of the travel market and I wish them well.

KLM have also announced routes to CUN, HKT, MBA and MCO.

Trintocan.

I remember KL at POS in the early 80s. It used to continue to CUR and many T&T folks used it to go shopping. Cannot recall how many got off from AMS though.

I too remembered as a child in the 80's KLM operating in POS going to the waving gallery and seeing their 747, along with Pan AM and BA.

I am surprised to see their resumption of this service, but with Shell significantly buying up LGN assets in POS, I guess from their data they are seeing demand for business. This will be an opportunity for the Travel agents to market both countries and locals to explore new added non-stop destination. Also the possibility of onward connections.
Next thing we will hear BA starting flights to POS-LHR

baje427 wrote:

caribbean484 wrote:

Just saw that KLM will be operating AMS-BGI-POS 3w from this winter.
https://www.travmagazine.nl/klm-naar-ze ... de-winter/
I saw some posts on FB with TUI flying a couple of charters during the pandemic but a new Long Haul to POS is something different.
Maybe we will see Eurowings in TAB also, with the new routes to BGI

I was about to post this, very interesting I do wonder if this will get going if POS remains closed.

I'm sure that KL has considered alternatives in the event of the continued closure of POS, e.g. retaining just BGI or sharing with another destination such as SXM.

richard757 wrote:

Fantastic news for both POS and BGI. Finally, there will be better connections onwards to Europe, Asia and other destinations. British Airways connections out of LGW is limited and it is always a nightmare to transfer from Gatwick to Heathrow for onward connections.

Most of BA and all of VS flights to London operate to Heathrow now. No need to connect between LGW and LHR for connections. That been said, KL provides additional options for both Europe and Asia.

caribbean484 wrote:

Just saw that KLM will be operating AMS-BGI-POS 3w from this winter.
https://www.travmagazine.nl/klm-naar-ze ... de-winter/
I saw some posts on FB with TUI flying a couple of charters during the pandemic but a new Long Haul to POS is something different.
Maybe we will see Eurowings in TAB also, with the new routes to BGI

KLM to Barbados and Trinidad is pretty neat. Hope the flights last.

AEROFAN wrote:

caribbean484 wrote:

Just saw that KLM will be operating AMS-BGI-POS 3w from this winter.
https://www.travmagazine.nl/klm-naar-ze ... de-winter/
I saw some posts on FB with TUI flying a couple of charters during the pandemic but a new Long Haul to POS is something different.
Maybe we will see Eurowings in TAB also, with the new routes to BGI

KLM to Barbados and Trinidad is pretty neat. Hope the flights last.

Agreed. I wonder if they will be allowed to sell the BGI-POS leg?