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Noshow
Posts: 3711
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 4:41 pm

But that’s also my question. Is the Emirates guarantee the same as everybody else’s guarantee?


Possibly they need something like Dubai-LAX non-stop in the worst season and winds aloft at a given high load. This range could be some unique requirement. Or certain high density altitude high weight takeoff performance scenarios might be unique to their home base Dubai? These contracts are not public.
 
Opus99
Posts: 3553
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 4:46 pm

They asked Akbar this same question about the GE9X and whether he’s happy with it or if he’s looking for improvements. He gave a more generic answer to like “we are always looking for improvements with manufacturers” and then goes on to say GE should invest in electric propulsion or something like that
 
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zkojq
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 4:46 pm

Opus99 wrote:
zkojq wrote:
There is literally no problem here whatsoever if Boeing builds an aircraft that meets or exceeds the performance guarentees in the Emirates contract.

If they do build an aircraft that fails to meet contractual guarentees and Emirates does refuse delivery then the fact that Boeing designed and optimized the plane for ME3 ULH missions will really come back to bite them....

But that’s also my question. Is the Emirates guarantee the same as everybody else’s guarantee?


Emirates wants a plane that can takeoff in 55+ degree heat from sandstorm plagued Dubai and fly without payload restrictions to the US West Coast. Other carriers who operate in more "normal" environments might not be so concerned about such conditions. Tim Clark has been very vocal about engine performance and held up some A380s in the past because of engines not meeting guarentees (something which a.net was absolutely fine with at the time)....

https://www.airlineratings.com/news/emi ... 7x-engine/
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9833
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 5:18 pm

Opus99 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Many posters here find fault with Emirates. Emirates is Boeings biggest customer in regards to the 777 and now the biggest customer in regards to the 777-X.
IMO Boeing is not living up to promises.
The delivery delay is all on Boeing, or GE as it is.
If the 777-9 does not hit contractual specs in regards to the contracts with Emirates, be it the frame itself or the engines, Boeing must expect the contract being challenged by Emirates.

The other day Jim Clark complained about Boeing not affirming data in regards to the performance of the 777-9.
There have been enough test flights for Boeing to start getting real world numbers. If those numbers were good, they would be all over Emirates to tell them that they hit specs or beat specs. Boeing not doing that points to trouble.

If Emirates would cut the 777-9, that means loss of 115 orders. As the backlog of 777 is according to Boeing 266 frames only, with a few 777 mixed in, that would not leave many 777-9 on order and the question would become how viable the 777-9 is without the Emirates order.

All the other airlines there are they stupid? There is more to this than what this guy is saying. He said that since April 2018 of the GE9X first flight he has not seen any data? I mean come on.

My things is. Is it a thing where with most programs the plane comes in overweight and then you’ll have PIPs to improve it? As with the 787? And he’s just being a pain the ass?

Is he the only one? Why is everybody else (at least seeming) content so far. Maybe there’s something Boeing promised him in particular that they cannot guarantee.


When Boeing sells airplanes there is a contract with guaranteed specs. Do you want to say that it does not matter what performance specs Boeing guaranties in those contracts? That the sales people are allowed to sell something, that Boeing is not prepared to stand behind?
In regards to the 787, why do you expect every new frame at Boeing to become a train wreck and that it would not matter.
Look on the other aircraft producer. Did the A320neo family come in below specs, the A330neo, the A350? AFAIK everyone of those frames did beat specs. One producer seems to learn from their mistakes.

Yes, that is exactly what the complaint is about, Boeing not being open with the real data. Where does your belief comes from that everything is fine at Boeing? How do you know that other airlines are not complaining? Everything OK because the others have not talked to the press yet?
 
Noshow
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 5:23 pm

Clark might need to decide about this under his watch. So there might be some time pressure. Especially if something else should be needed.
The other guys are ready to wait with a market like this. They might see it as "delays mean compensation" and some soft Boeing ready to move orders to other programs.
 
Opus99
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 5:34 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Many posters here find fault with Emirates. Emirates is Boeings biggest customer in regards to the 777 and now the biggest customer in regards to the 777-X.
IMO Boeing is not living up to promises.
The delivery delay is all on Boeing, or GE as it is.
If the 777-9 does not hit contractual specs in regards to the contracts with Emirates, be it the frame itself or the engines, Boeing must expect the contract being challenged by Emirates.

The other day Jim Clark complained about Boeing not affirming data in regards to the performance of the 777-9.
There have been enough test flights for Boeing to start getting real world numbers. If those numbers were good, they would be all over Emirates to tell them that they hit specs or beat specs. Boeing not doing that points to trouble.

If Emirates would cut the 777-9, that means loss of 115 orders. As the backlog of 777 is according to Boeing 266 frames only, with a few 777 mixed in, that would not leave many 777-9 on order and the question would become how viable the 777-9 is without the Emirates order.

All the other airlines there are they stupid? There is more to this than what this guy is saying. He said that since April 2018 of the GE9X first flight he has not seen any data? I mean come on.

My things is. Is it a thing where with most programs the plane comes in overweight and then you’ll have PIPs to improve it? As with the 787? And he’s just being a pain the ass?

Is he the only one? Why is everybody else (at least seeming) content so far. Maybe there’s something Boeing promised him in particular that they cannot guarantee.


When Boeing sells airplanes there is a contract with guaranteed specs. Do you want to say that it does not matter what performance specs Boeing guaranties in those contracts? That the sales people are allowed to sell something, that Boeing is not prepared to stand behind?
In regards to the 787, why do you expect every new frame at Boeing to become a train wreck and that it would not matter.
Look on the other aircraft producer. Did the A320neo family come in below specs, the A330neo, the A350? AFAIK everyone of those frames did beat specs. One producer seems to learn from their mistakes.

Yes, that is exactly what the complaint is about, Boeing not being open with the real data. Where does your belief comes from that everything is fine at Boeing? How do you know that other airlines are not complaining? Everything OK because the others have not talked to the press yet?

350-1000 engine did not meet performance guarantees according to Qatar airways. 380 we all know that.

https://aviationanalyst.co.uk/2019/10/2 ... facturers/

Who said everything is fine at Boeing? I’ve said that multiple times. My thing is the man is making noise and he’s not putting his money where his mouth is.

So again my question is. Is it a matter of what exact performance guarantees is he referring to. Is it a matter of him being a pain the ass because he just over ordered and he wants to back out or what next?

At the end of the day if they did not meet it. They will meet it eventually.

If Clark doesn’t want he should cancel it, there are other options
 
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Revelation
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 5:49 pm

Noshow wrote:
Clark might need to decide about this under his watch. So there might be some time pressure. Especially if something else should be needed.
The other guys are ready to wait with a market like this. They might see it as "delays mean compensation" and some soft Boeing ready to move orders to other programs.

Contracts work two ways. Boeing made a lot of investments based on EK's commitments. I would think by the time 777x contracts were signed, Boeing had learned how to structure a contract with built-in clauses to protect itself based on lessons learned from 787's delays. Of course EK would have negotiated their side of the contract also seeing what delays had done to the industry.

Post #6 ( viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1461129#p22801073 ) from smartplane speaks to the time line:

smartplane wrote:
By end 1Q22, Boeing would expect every customer to have at least one tranche go unconditional, if on target for first deliveries 4Q23. A precursor for that would be firm delivery dates, and firm launch and plus one year performance data, all supported by meaningful penalties.

When Boeing firm, it forces customers to make decisions, and commence milestone payments, which may result in cancellations, influencing internal and other customer decisions on the model family. While Boeing remain fluid, and undertake visible, but minimal development, it delays these hard decisions to more of a post-COVID world, when outcomes will hopefully be more positive.

Wonder if GE is part of the delay, or whether they too are losing patience with progress?

It's not necessarily an "all or nothing" kind of thing. Each tranche has a time line. Drastic changes can have negative impacts on the project so we can see ghost orders on the books, like VS bragging about signing for A380s but never taking any. It's hard to draw conclusions from a small number of media interviews.
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 4655
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 5:49 pm

Opus99 wrote:

Who said everything is fine at Boeing? I’ve said that multiple times. My thing is the man is making noise and he’s not putting his money where his mouth is.



He is putting his money where his mouth is, that’s the point, he’s just expecting Boeing to reciprocate and deliver their side of the bargain. Would you rather Boeing lost the order just so he’d stop being mean?

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Opus99
Posts: 3553
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 5:57 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
Opus99 wrote:

Who said everything is fine at Boeing? I’ve said that multiple times. My thing is the man is making noise and he’s not putting his money where his mouth is.



He is putting his money where his mouth is, that’s the point, he’s just expecting Boeing to reciprocate and deliver their side of the bargain. Would you rather Boeing lost the order just so he’d stop being mean?

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

He should do what will satisfy him with the the position everybody is at. It’s obvious they’ve not met the guarantee. If they have they would’ve sent him the data. So if he wants to cancel it. He should, after all the 35K can come quicker at this point
 
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Revelation
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 5:58 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
He is putting his money where his mouth is, that’s the point, he’s just expecting Boeing to reciprocate and deliver their side of the bargain. Would you rather Boeing lost the order just so he’d stop being mean?

Thing is, we don't know what the bargain is, and to what degree Boeing is or is not delivering relative to that bargain, all we have is STC's public complaints. Delays probably have built-in penalties so the delay may be already handled by the "bargain".

We know Boeing is late, but we also know EK is under extreme financial duress due to the COVID-19 crisis so STC has his own pressures he's dealing with. We don't know if Boeing is obligated to deliver the data STC requests at this point in the contract or not.

Presumably he could already be suing for an actual contract breach and so far he hasn't so maybe his money isn't where his mouth is after all.

He himself says delivery isn't till 2024 so it's curious that he complains so much three years in advance.

Maybe he is just a victim of circumstance and under duress for all those A380 lease payments for airplanes that aren't flying, and this is his way to vent without causing himself to get any blowback.
 
jbs2886
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Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 6:05 pm

Coincidentally we hear Emirates may "firm up" more of its 777Xs and I think we heard may also cancel some more in the past few weeks, and now this interview. This is nothing more than just STC negotiating publicly (again). Personally, this is getting really old.
 
majano
Posts: 472
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 6:12 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Meanwhile Boeing should put 77X project on back burner with couple of interns and reassign resources to other projects.


What projects? They currently have two passenger types that they are delivering. That's it. The 767 is no longer delivering passenger models. The 747 is winding down and all remaining orders are for cargo.


Anything which sells in the future and not dependent on one unreliable customer.
Boeing sunk enough money into 777X trusting solely STC, and every other week there is a new thread on STC complaining about 777X.

cedarjet wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

Debatable. For example AA bought close to 800 Boeing and 450 MD aircraft.

Emirates was the biggest customer for the 777-300ER, a total of 124 deliveries (plus all the 777-200ERs, 777-300 non-ERs and 777Fs).


Customer size is measured based on actual revenue inflow, not based on the amount noise generated.

Southwest 1080, Ryanair 598, they still have orders which they are eager to take delivery.

EK 195 x 777s at $130M(77W FMV) = $25 Billion (actual will be less as non-77Ws are cheaper)
WN 1080 x 737s at $50 Million = 54 Billion
FR 598 x 737s at $50 Million = 29.9 Billion

I often agree with you, but this is a horrible calculation.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9833
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 6:22 pm

Opus99 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
All the other airlines there are they stupid? There is more to this than what this guy is saying. He said that since April 2018 of the GE9X first flight he has not seen any data? I mean come on.

My things is. Is it a thing where with most programs the plane comes in overweight and then you’ll have PIPs to improve it? As with the 787? And he’s just being a pain the ass?

Is he the only one? Why is everybody else (at least seeming) content so far. Maybe there’s something Boeing promised him in particular that they cannot guarantee.


When Boeing sells airplanes there is a contract with guaranteed specs. Do you want to say that it does not matter what performance specs Boeing guaranties in those contracts? That the sales people are allowed to sell something, that Boeing is not prepared to stand behind?
In regards to the 787, why do you expect every new frame at Boeing to become a train wreck and that it would not matter.
Look on the other aircraft producer. Did the A320neo family come in below specs, the A330neo, the A350? AFAIK everyone of those frames did beat specs. One producer seems to learn from their mistakes.

Yes, that is exactly what the complaint is about, Boeing not being open with the real data. Where does your belief comes from that everything is fine at Boeing? How do you know that other airlines are not complaining? Everything OK because the others have not talked to the press yet?

350-1000 engine did not meet performance guarantees according to Qatar airways. 380 we all know that.

https://aviationanalyst.co.uk/2019/10/2 ... facturers/

Who said everything is fine at Boeing? I’ve said that multiple times. My thing is the man is making noise and he’s not putting his money where his mouth is.

So again my question is. Is it a matter of what exact performance guarantees is he referring to. Is it a matter of him being a pain the ass because he just over ordered and he wants to back out or what next?

At the end of the day if they did not meet it. They will meet it eventually.

If Clark doesn’t want he should cancel it, there are other options


Why do you assume that Tim Clarke is not saying what he means. The title thread says it all, Emirates will refuse the 777-9 if it does not meat specs. I assume that Tim Clarke has reason to believe it will not meat specs.
 
Opus99
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 6:34 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:

When Boeing sells airplanes there is a contract with guaranteed specs. Do you want to say that it does not matter what performance specs Boeing guaranties in those contracts? That the sales people are allowed to sell something, that Boeing is not prepared to stand behind?
In regards to the 787, why do you expect every new frame at Boeing to become a train wreck and that it would not matter.
Look on the other aircraft producer. Did the A320neo family come in below specs, the A330neo, the A350? AFAIK everyone of those frames did beat specs. One producer seems to learn from their mistakes.

Yes, that is exactly what the complaint is about, Boeing not being open with the real data. Where does your belief comes from that everything is fine at Boeing? How do you know that other airlines are not complaining? Everything OK because the others have not talked to the press yet?

350-1000 engine did not meet performance guarantees according to Qatar airways. 380 we all know that.

https://aviationanalyst.co.uk/2019/10/2 ... facturers/

Who said everything is fine at Boeing? I’ve said that multiple times. My thing is the man is making noise and he’s not putting his money where his mouth is.

So again my question is. Is it a matter of what exact performance guarantees is he referring to. Is it a matter of him being a pain the ass because he just over ordered and he wants to back out or what next?

At the end of the day if they did not meet it. They will meet it eventually.

If Clark doesn’t want he should cancel it, there are other options


Why do you assume that Tim Clarke is not saying what he means. The title thread says it all, Emirates will refuse the 777-9 if it does not meat specs. I assume that Tim Clarke has reason to believe it will not meat specs.

If he believes that Then he should cancel it. It’s very simple why is he making noise
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9833
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 6:37 pm

Opus99 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
350-1000 engine did not meet performance guarantees according to Qatar airways. 380 we all know that.

https://aviationanalyst.co.uk/2019/10/2 ... facturers/

Who said everything is fine at Boeing? I’ve said that multiple times. My thing is the man is making noise and he’s not putting his money where his mouth is.

So again my question is. Is it a matter of what exact performance guarantees is he referring to. Is it a matter of him being a pain the ass because he just over ordered and he wants to back out or what next?

At the end of the day if they did not meet it. They will meet it eventually.

If Clark doesn’t want he should cancel it, there are other options


Why do you assume that Tim Clarke is not saying what he means. The title thread says it all, Emirates will refuse the 777-9 if it does not meat specs. I assume that Tim Clarke has reason to believe it will not meat specs.

If he believes that Then he should cancel it. It’s very simple why is he making noise


If Emirates cancels their frames, than the 777X is as good as dead. Perhaps he expects Boeing to make an effort.
 
MileHFL400
Posts: 1042
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2015 11:42 am

Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 6:45 pm

scbriml wrote:
Jetport wrote:
Thankfully in most of the developed world business leaders like Tim Clarke aren't tolerated anymore.


May I introduce Michael O'Leary, self-styled raper of Boeing. :sarcastic:

When you spend billions of dollars with Boeing, you get to complain as much as you want and Boeing has no choice but to take it. Same with Airbus.


Truth!
 
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FLALEFTY
Posts: 1368
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 11:33 am

Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 7:09 pm

Revelation wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
He is putting his money where his mouth is, that’s the point, he’s just expecting Boeing to reciprocate and deliver their side of the bargain. Would you rather Boeing lost the order just so he’d stop being mean?


Maybe he is just a victim of circumstance and under duress for all those A380 lease payments for airplanes that aren't flying, and this is his way to vent without causing himself to get any blowback.


Yep! EK has 96 A380's parked in the desert with nowhere to go and lease payments that keep piling up. Worse, there are the last 4 A380's coming that EK really doesn't want, or need.

Adding to all this, in the post-COVID world passengers will be less willing to risk connecting on EK through DXB on A380's to save a few bucks over being able to fly direct to their destinations on B787's and A350's. Replacing B77X's with B787's will just mean more flights crowding into DXB, but carrying fewer passengers. EK had the magic formula for the last decade, but the market has changed and they aren't in a great position to react.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 5496
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 7:18 pm

HL300B4 wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Many posters here find fault with Emirates. Emirates is Boeings biggest customer in regards to the 777 and now the biggest customer in regards to the 777-X.
IMO Boeing is not living up to promises.
The delivery delay is all on Boeing, or GE as it is.
If the 777-9 does not hit contractual specs in regards to the contracts with Emirates, be it the frame itself or the engines, Boeing must expect the contract being challenged by Emirates.

The other day Jim Clark complained about Boeing not affirming data in regards to the performance of the 777-9.
There have been enough test flights for Boeing to start getting real world numbers. If those numbers were good, they would be all over Emirates to tell them that they hit specs or beat specs. Boeing not doing that points to trouble.

If Emirates would cut the 777-9, that means loss of 115 orders. As the backlog of 777 is according to Boeing 266 frames only, with a few 777 mixed in, that would not leave many 777-9 on order and the question would become how viable the 777-9 is without the Emirates order.

All the other airlines there are they stupid? There is more to this than what this guy is saying. He said that since April 2018 of the GE9X first flight he has not seen any data? I mean come on.

My things is. Is it a thing where with most programs the plane comes in overweight and then you’ll have PIPs to improve it? As with the 787? And he’s just being a pain the ass?

Is he the only one? Why is everybody else (at least seeming) content so far. Maybe there’s something Boeing promised him in particular that they cannot guarantee.


Everybody else is content so far because of that little thing called Covid19. They are happy not to have to pay for planed they cannot fill right now.


It also isn't forming the backbone of the fleets at any of those other carriers.
 
Opus99
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Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 7:24 pm

VSMUT wrote:
HL300B4 wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
All the other airlines there are they stupid? There is more to this than what this guy is saying. He said that since April 2018 of the GE9X first flight he has not seen any data? I mean come on.

My things is. Is it a thing where with most programs the plane comes in overweight and then you’ll have PIPs to improve it? As with the 787? And he’s just being a pain the ass?

Is he the only one? Why is everybody else (at least seeming) content so far. Maybe there’s something Boeing promised him in particular that they cannot guarantee.


Everybody else is content so far because of that little thing called Covid19. They are happy not to have to pay for planed they cannot fill right now.


It also isn't forming the backbone of the fleets at any of those other carriers.

He also does not have the money to pay for them.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 5496
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 7:52 pm

Opus99 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
HL300B4 wrote:

Everybody else is content so far because of that little thing called Covid19. They are happy not to have to pay for planed they cannot fill right now.


It also isn't forming the backbone of the fleets at any of those other carriers.

He also does not have the money to pay for them.


Do you have any evidence to back up that claim?
 
Opus99
Posts: 3553
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 7:59 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:

It also isn't forming the backbone of the fleets at any of those other carriers.

He also does not have the money to pay for them.


Do you have any evidence to back up that claim?

He has 4 A380s sitting in Toulouse. That’s the evidence you need.

He also said they will soon have to go back to the government for more money
 
Noshow
Posts: 3711
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 8:04 pm

If the contractual specs would not be met which I don't hope he could walk away. That is his right and not his fault.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 5496
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 8:18 pm

Opus99 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
He also does not have the money to pay for them.


Do you have any evidence to back up that claim?

He has 4 A380s sitting in Toulouse. That’s the evidence you need.

He also said they will soon have to go back to the government for more money


I don't agree, that isn't evidence of anything. They took delivery of one A380 in the middle of May and 3 in December. One of the four remaining did a test flight in Hamburg 3 days ago. They definitely aren't sitting dormant as you suggest.

So I ask you again, do you have any evidence for your claim?
 
smartplane
Posts: 1926
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:23 pm

Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 8:20 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Many posters here find fault with Emirates. Emirates is Boeings biggest customer in regards to the 777 and now the biggest customer in regards to the 777-X.
IMO Boeing is not living up to promises.
The delivery delay is all on Boeing, or GE as it is.
If the 777-9 does not hit contractual specs in regards to the contracts with Emirates, be it the frame itself or the engines, Boeing must expect the contract being challenged by Emirates.

The other day Jim Clark complained about Boeing not affirming data in regards to the performance of the 777-9.
There have been enough test flights for Boeing to start getting real world numbers. If those numbers were good, they would be all over Emirates to tell them that they hit specs or beat specs. Boeing not doing that points to trouble.

If Emirates would cut the 777-9, that means loss of 115 orders. As the backlog of 777 is according to Boeing 266 frames only, with a few 777 mixed in, that would not leave many 777-9 on order and the question would become how viable the 777-9 is without the Emirates order.

Boeing must be relieved there are no A.Net posters on their payroll negotiating with their customers.

A milestone is approaching for 777X customers to re-affirm unconditional and conditional orders, AND qualify for Tier 2 and 3 compensation credits.

One tier covers late delivery, and the balance 'other'. Presumably EK are unwilling to accept the compensation formula until they have detailed deficit information, and a guaranteed timeframe for rectification.

As you state, given the multiple year delays, most customers would expect performance enhancement announcements to be trickling out by now, while the reverse seems to be the case.

The fact neither Boeing or EK are quoting actual performance, suggests the data doesn't exist, or Boeing isn't satisfied with the numbers, or................
 
Opus99
Posts: 3553
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 8:21 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:

Do you have any evidence to back up that claim?

He has 4 A380s sitting in Toulouse. That’s the evidence you need.

He also said they will soon have to go back to the government for more money


I don't agree, that isn't evidence of anything. They took delivery of one A380 in the middle of May and 3 in December. One of the four remaining did a test flight in Hamburg 3 days ago. They definitely aren't sitting dormant as you suggest.

So I ask you again, do you have any evidence for your claim?

That’s my evidence. If you don’t like it that’s your personal problem.

The man said they’ll soon run out of cash and they’ll need to go back to the government for injection. You’re still arguing if they have money or not.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 5496
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 8:22 pm

Opus99 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
He has 4 A380s sitting in Toulouse. That’s the evidence you need.

He also said they will soon have to go back to the government for more money


I don't agree, that isn't evidence of anything. They took delivery of one A380 in the middle of May and 3 in December. One of the four remaining did a test flight in Hamburg 3 days ago. They definitely aren't sitting dormant as you suggest.

So I ask you again, do you have any evidence for your claim?

That’s my evidence. If you don’t like it that’s your personal problem.

The man said they’ll soon run out of cash and they’ll need to go back to the government for injection. You’re still arguing if they have money or not.


So you don't have any, you are just making stuff up on the go now?
 
Opus99
Posts: 3553
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 8:30 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:

I don't agree, that isn't evidence of anything. They took delivery of one A380 in the middle of May and 3 in December. One of the four remaining did a test flight in Hamburg 3 days ago. They definitely aren't sitting dormant as you suggest.

So I ask you again, do you have any evidence for your claim?

That’s my evidence. If you don’t like it that’s your personal problem.

The man said they’ll soon run out of cash and they’ll need to go back to the government for injection. You’re still arguing if they have money or not.


So you don't have any, you are just making stuff up on the go now?

Do you want a spreadsheet of their account?

All one can give you is what their CEO has said. He said they have enough cash for day to day operations to stay flat for the next few months. After that they will be in trouble and will need to go back to the government.

But sorry, I can’t provide you with their account spreadsheet. But sure they have money. Had thei 777X been online they would’ve taken them straight out the gate
 
smartplane
Posts: 1926
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:23 pm

Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 8:34 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
All the other airlines there are they stupid? There is more to this than what this guy is saying. He said that since April 2018 of the GE9X first flight he has not seen any data? I mean come on.

My things is. Is it a thing where with most programs the plane comes in overweight and then you’ll have PIPs to improve it? As with the 787? And he’s just being a pain the ass?

Is he the only one? Why is everybody else (at least seeming) content so far. Maybe there’s something Boeing promised him in particular that they cannot guarantee.


When Boeing sells airplanes there is a contract with guaranteed specs. Do you want to say that it does not matter what performance specs Boeing guaranties in those contracts? That the sales people are allowed to sell something, that Boeing is not prepared to stand behind?
In regards to the 787, why do you expect every new frame at Boeing to become a train wreck and that it would not matter.
Look on the other aircraft producer. Did the A320neo family come in below specs, the A330neo, the A350? AFAIK everyone of those frames did beat specs. One producer seems to learn from their mistakes.

Yes, that is exactly what the complaint is about, Boeing not being open with the real data. Where does your belief comes from that everything is fine at Boeing? How do you know that other airlines are not complaining? Everything OK because the others have not talked to the press yet?

Think you will find EK has had issues with Airbus (and RR) performance, but these have been resolved, including the A380 and A346.

The difference today, is EK has learned it's better to be firm from the outset, negotiating harder at the front end, rather than after delivery, avoiding the ridiculous situation of signing off delivery flights on aircraft which don't meet contracted performance.

Customers should raise the bar, because then OEM's will lift quality, performance and safety before the fact, rather than after.
 
Opus99
Posts: 3553
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 8:37 pm

smartplane wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
All the other airlines there are they stupid? There is more to this than what this guy is saying. He said that since April 2018 of the GE9X first flight he has not seen any data? I mean come on.

My things is. Is it a thing where with most programs the plane comes in overweight and then you’ll have PIPs to improve it? As with the 787? And he’s just being a pain the ass?

Is he the only one? Why is everybody else (at least seeming) content so far. Maybe there’s something Boeing promised him in particular that they cannot guarantee.


When Boeing sells airplanes there is a contract with guaranteed specs. Do you want to say that it does not matter what performance specs Boeing guaranties in those contracts? That the sales people are allowed to sell something, that Boeing is not prepared to stand behind?
In regards to the 787, why do you expect every new frame at Boeing to become a train wreck and that it would not matter.
Look on the other aircraft producer. Did the A320neo family come in below specs, the A330neo, the A350? AFAIK everyone of those frames did beat specs. One producer seems to learn from their mistakes.

Yes, that is exactly what the complaint is about, Boeing not being open with the real data. Where does your belief comes from that everything is fine at Boeing? How do you know that other airlines are not complaining? Everything OK because the others have not talked to the press yet?

Think you will find EK has had issues with Airbus (and RR) performance, but these have been resolved, including the A380 and A346.

The difference today, is EK has learned it's better to be firm from the outset, negotiating harder at the front end, rather than after delivery, avoiding the ridiculous situation of signing off delivery flights on aircraft which don't meet contracted performance.

Customers should raise the bar, because then OEM's will lift quality, performance and safety before the fact, rather than after.

The only good thing here is that it doesn’t leave Boeing with much of a choice to be honest. Guess it helps the other customers but man he can go on
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 27725
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 9:18 pm

zkojq wrote:
If they do build an aircraft that fails to meet contractual guarentees and Emirates does refuse delivery then the fact that Boeing designed and optimized the plane for ME3 ULH missions will really come back to bite them....

The fact that they got BA and CX as customers after they ordered both A350-900 and A350-1000 and got LH and SQ as customers after they ordered A350-900 disproves the whole "optimized the plane for ME3 ULH missions" narrative. All of these companies are not ME3 and had AIrbus's number on speed dial, if they wanted something not "optimized for ME3 ULH missions" they knew who to call. Heck, LH ordered 779 without having any earlier 777 models in house, it would have been trivial for them to just order that not-ME3-ULH-optimized A350-1000 but looked at their not-ME3 route network and ordered 779 instead.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 9100
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Mon May 24, 2021 9:35 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
...
Why do you assume that Tim Clarke is not saying what he means. The title thread says it all, Emirates will refuse the 777-9 if it does not meat specs. I assume that Tim Clarke has reason to believe it will not meat specs.


Several possibilities, but most likely possibility is real owners tasked Sir Tim to get EK out of order book mess, before he can leave the company. He is trying hard.
 
NLINK
Posts: 576
Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2003 3:20 pm

Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Tue May 25, 2021 12:26 am

I really wish Boeing would quit trying to build airplanes that please STC. They know he plays these games and it ends up costing US taxpayers in the long run. He is bad for the industry.
 
Nicknuzzii
Posts: 2075
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:57 pm

Emirates adds MIA from July 21st, 2021

Tue May 25, 2021 1:15 am

https://worldairlinenews.com/2021/05/24 ... -to-miami/

Exciting news! This route makes sense in my eyes as FLL didn’t offer too much with just JetBlue.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26832
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

Re: Emirates adds MIA from July 21st, 2021

Tue May 25, 2021 1:35 am

Great news. I had originally heard this would replace Fort Lauderdale and Orlando. Not sure if still the plan, but Emirates had a press release saying Orlando would come back June 1st (or 2nd?) and now Orlando has been zero'd out for June (still available for July).
 
Pelly
Posts: 209
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:13 pm

Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Tue May 25, 2021 1:58 am

Revelation wrote:
And if you are the supplier, your best move is to remain silent. Note how Airbus stayed silent when AAB kept complaining about carpets. There's no upside to getting into a public spat with a customer.
.


I don’t know how the carpet thing keeps getting attributed to AAB on A.net and has become “fact” when discussing delivery delays or customer complaints.
 
Brickell305
Posts: 1784
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:07 pm

Re: Emirates adds MIA from July 21st, 2021

Tue May 25, 2021 2:03 am

Great news. I expected that when EK returned to So. Fla, it would be to MIA. It just makes more sense for them. I’m a bit surprised that it was this soon but glad to see it. I hope this doesn’t replace MCO as well and both routes can co-exist.
 
User avatar
BoeingVista
Posts: 2157
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:54 am

Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Tue May 25, 2021 2:16 am

keesje wrote:
Probably Airbus presented EK an aggresive A350-900/A350-950F/A350-1000 scenario, proposal.

Fleet development ran the numbers and now Sir Tim is scratching his head.

Boeing 777X certification fall-out, schedule risk doesn’t help.
http://www.cannews.com.cn/2021/04/08/99323838.html


Ultrafan A350-950/-2000 for 2025? RR took the program out of mothballs for something.
 
User avatar
FLALEFTY
Posts: 1368
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 11:33 am

Re: Emirates adds MIA from July 21st, 2021

Tue May 25, 2021 2:53 am

Brickell305 wrote:
Great news. I expected that when EK returned to So. Fla, it would be to MIA. It just makes more sense for them. I’m a bit surprised that it was this soon but glad to see it. I hope this doesn’t replace MCO as well and both routes can co-exist.


I think this move from FLL to MIA has been in EK's plans for quite a while. EK has been flying semi-regular cargo flights with their passenger B77W's to MIA throughout the pandemic. These flights usually have parked in the Eastern "U", or in the LATAM maintenance lot next to Cargo City. However, some of the flights have gone over to the South Terminal to get familiar with the gate they plan to use when passenger flights start.
 
User avatar
stl07
Posts: 3205
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 8:57 pm

Re: Emirates adds MIA from July 21st, 2021

Tue May 25, 2021 3:05 am

FLL never made any sense. Who in the UAE knows what FLL is lol?
 
User avatar
jfklganyc
Posts: 6720
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

Re: Emirates adds MIA from July 21st, 2021

Tue May 25, 2021 3:08 am

FLL was always an odd choice.

Even B6 now has a large (for them) operation in MIA.
 
USAirALB
Posts: 3207
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 4:46 am

Re: Emirates adds MIA from July 21st, 2021

Tue May 25, 2021 3:21 am

The reasoning for FLL I thought was for its proximity to Port Everglades to cater to cruise ship crew members from Southeast Asia.
 
Brickell305
Posts: 1784
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:07 pm

Re: Emirates adds MIA from July 21st, 2021

Tue May 25, 2021 3:23 am

USAirALB wrote:
The reasoning for FLL I thought was for its proximity to Port Everglades to cater to cruise ship crew members from Southeast Asia.

You could say the same for MIA and the Port of Miami which is a larger cruise port.
 
User avatar
ElroyJetson
Posts: 1333
Joined: Fri May 26, 2017 5:04 am

Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Tue May 25, 2021 4:02 am

Who knows STC's agenda? He and AAB posture in the press frequently. Airbus and Boeing have both been in the crosshairs.in the past. This is familiar territory. The phrase contractual responsibilities can mean many things. But I think to assume the 779 is not meeting performance guarantees is unlikely. Just my .02.
 
SFOtoORD
Posts: 1356
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:26 am

Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Tue May 25, 2021 5:33 am

mjoelnir wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Many posters here find fault with Emirates. Emirates is Boeings biggest customer in regards to the 777 and now the biggest customer in regards to the 777-X.
IMO Boeing is not living up to promises.
The delivery delay is all on Boeing, or GE as it is.
If the 777-9 does not hit contractual specs in regards to the contracts with Emirates, be it the frame itself or the engines, Boeing must expect the contract being challenged by Emirates.

The other day Jim Clark complained about Boeing not affirming data in regards to the performance of the 777-9.
There have been enough test flights for Boeing to start getting real world numbers. If those numbers were good, they would be all over Emirates to tell them that they hit specs or beat specs. Boeing not doing that points to trouble.

If Emirates would cut the 777-9, that means loss of 115 orders. As the backlog of 777 is according to Boeing 266 frames only, with a few 777 mixed in, that would not leave many 777-9 on order and the question would become how viable the 777-9 is without the Emirates order.

All the other airlines there are they stupid? There is more to this than what this guy is saying. He said that since April 2018 of the GE9X first flight he has not seen any data? I mean come on.

My things is. Is it a thing where with most programs the plane comes in overweight and then you’ll have PIPs to improve it? As with the 787? And he’s just being a pain the ass?

Is he the only one? Why is everybody else (at least seeming) content so far. Maybe there’s something Boeing promised him in particular that they cannot guarantee.


When Boeing sells airplanes there is a contract with guaranteed specs. Do you want to say that it does not matter what performance specs Boeing guaranties in those contracts? That the sales people are allowed to sell something, that Boeing is not prepared to stand behind?
In regards to the 787, why do you expect every new frame at Boeing to become a train wreck and that it would not matter.
Look on the other aircraft producer. Did the A320neo family come in below specs, the A330neo, the A350? AFAIK everyone of those frames did beat specs. One producer seems to learn from their mistakes.

Yes, that is exactly what the complaint is about, Boeing not being open with the real data. Where does your belief comes from that everything is fine at Boeing? How do you know that other airlines are not complaining? Everything OK because the others have not talked to the press yet?


Unless anyone in this thread has read the contract then the discussion on guarantees is just conjecture.
 
SFOtoORD
Posts: 1356
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:26 am

Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Tue May 25, 2021 5:36 am

Even if EK is using Boeing’s issues to fix an overcapacity issue it just means they negotiated a smart contract. I’m sure they’ll leverage this situation for flexibility, so good for them. Boeing, on the other hand, needs to stay focused on delivering.
 
santi319
Posts: 1463
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 3:24 pm

Re: Emirates adds MIA from July 21st, 2021

Tue May 25, 2021 6:04 am

If Qatar and Tk can make this work, why not them? Just off of influencers this route will make money lol.
 
VV
Posts: 2400
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:03 pm

Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Tue May 25, 2021 7:50 am

I do not understand the Tim Clark's remark.

Unless the contract stipulates the possibility to refuse the delivery or the "walk away clause", he will have to accept delivery the aircraft.

Usually there are other clauses in the contract that clearly define the actions or the consequences of a vendor not meeting the specification.
THere are also clauses that define the consequences that a buyer must face if they do not fulfill their part of the obligations set forth in the contract.

In any case, there is always a solution defined in the contract when one party, whether it is the seller or the buyer, that breaches the terms of the agreement.


I do not understand Tim Clark's comment. Has he succeeded to put a "walk away clause' in his contract?

If he did not then he has to stick with what he and Boeing signed, including the remedy related to the breach of the contract.
Or does he has an strange people in his flight operations department that are trying to show off in front of the management?

Perhaps he should look down into his organization to see whether there are mediocre people who want to gain some level of visibility in the company by reporting unnecessary stuff to the management.
Maybe that's the way it works at Emirates. Maybe you have to always justify your position and your salary by attracting the attention of the bosses by telling "interesting" reports.

Unfortunately the bosses can ramble about incoherent stuff in public based on those reports and make themselves sound silly.
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 10417
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Tue May 25, 2021 8:37 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
keesje wrote:
Probably Airbus presented EK an aggresive A350-900/A350-950F/A350-1000 scenario, proposal.

Fleet development ran the numbers and now Sir Tim is scratching his head.

Boeing 777X certification fall-out, schedule risk doesn’t help.
http://www.cannews.com.cn/2021/04/08/99323838.html


Good for Airbus. What is stopping STC from another U-Turn?

Meanwhile Boeing should put 77X project on back burner with couple of interns and reassign resources to other projects.


EK has over ordered and the resale value of the 777Ws has dropped. There is no point in making it another A vs. B slug fest.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 5496
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Tue May 25, 2021 8:43 am

seahawk wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
keesje wrote:
Probably Airbus presented EK an aggresive A350-900/A350-950F/A350-1000 scenario, proposal.

Fleet development ran the numbers and now Sir Tim is scratching his head.

Boeing 777X certification fall-out, schedule risk doesn’t help.
http://www.cannews.com.cn/2021/04/08/99323838.html


Good for Airbus. What is stopping STC from another U-Turn?

Meanwhile Boeing should put 77X project on back burner with couple of interns and reassign resources to other projects.


EK has over ordered and the resale value of the 777Ws has dropped. There is no point in making it another A vs. B slug fest.


33 of them are actually leased. They don't have to care about resale value for those ;)
 
marcelh
Posts: 2191
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Tue May 25, 2021 8:50 am

Revelation wrote:
zkojq wrote:
If they do build an aircraft that fails to meet contractual guarentees and Emirates does refuse delivery then the fact that Boeing designed and optimized the plane for ME3 ULH missions will really come back to bite them....

The fact that they got BA and CX as customers after they ordered both A350-900 and A350-1000 and got LH and SQ as customers after they ordered A350-900 disproves the whole "optimized the plane for ME3 ULH missions" narrative. All of these companies are not ME3 and had AIrbus's number on speed dial, if they wanted something not "optimized for ME3 ULH missions" they knew who to call. Heck, LH ordered 779 without having any earlier 777 models in house, it would have been trivial for them to just order that not-ME3-ULH-optimized A350-1000 but looked at their not-ME3 route network and ordered 779 instead.


A way too simplistic view. The airliners you mentioned are looking for something just bigger than the A350-1000 and the B779 is the only plane available
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