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xwb777
Topic Author
Posts: 1486
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:13 pm

Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Tue May 25, 2021 9:20 am

I dont think that Emirates has over ordered with the B777X. They have ordered that number for a reason. Emirates and other airlines haven’t seen COVID19 coming in their way, or else they wouldn’t have ordered whatever they did and can’t commit to.
 
Brickell305
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Re: Emirates adds MIA from July 21st, 2021

Tue May 25, 2021 10:20 am

santi319 wrote:
If Qatar and Tk can make this work, why not them? Just off of influencers this route will make money lol.

This is what I thought, especially re TK. TK has been serving MIA for years and apparently doing well. EK will be competing for a lot of the same connection flows. QR obviously has a OneWorld partner in MIA but I don't know how much of a benefit that is to them in terms of connections or OW customers booking them over competition. However, they by all accounts are doing well too. I wish EK success.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Tue May 25, 2021 10:53 am

VV wrote:
I do not understand the Tim Clark's remark.

Unless the contract stipulates the possibility to refuse the delivery or the "walk away clause", he will have to accept delivery the aircraft.

Usually there are other clauses in the contract that clearly define the actions or the consequences of a vendor not meeting the specification.
THere are also clauses that define the consequences that a buyer must face if they do not fulfill their part of the obligations set forth in the contract.

In any case, there is always a solution defined in the contract when one party, whether it is the seller or the buyer, that breaches the terms of the agreement.


I do not understand Tim Clark's comment. Has he succeeded to put a "walk away clause' in his contract?

If he did not then he has to stick with what he and Boeing signed, including the remedy related to the breach of the contract.
Or does he has an strange people in his flight operations department that are trying to show off in front of the management?

Perhaps he should look down into his organization to see whether there are mediocre people who want to gain some level of visibility in the company by reporting unnecessary stuff to the management.
Maybe that's the way it works at Emirates. Maybe you have to always justify your position and your salary by attracting the attention of the bosses by telling "interesting" reports.

Unfortunately the bosses can ramble about incoherent stuff in public based on those reports and make themselves sound silly.


You hardly need a walk away clause in the contract if the producer does not provide what was ordered and confirmed. If the product does not fulfill the agreed upon specs, Boeing will be in trouble. Small deviations excluded.
 
Noshow
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Tue May 25, 2021 10:57 am

It might not be black and white in the real world. Like you get a package of things that work as planned and others that don't. Then you hope for the manufacturer to put in money to develop improvements or find other walkarounds.
It sounds a bit like he feels being not enough updated about the status? On the other hand whenever CEOs go public I expect them to want lower prices for some reason.
 
mjoelnir
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Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Tue May 25, 2021 11:18 am

Noshow wrote:
It might not be black and white in the real world. Like you get a package of things that work as planned and others that don't. Then you hope for the manufacturer to put in money to develop improvements or find other walkarounds.
It sounds a bit like he feels being not enough updated about the status? On the other hand whenever CEOs go public I expect them to want lower prices for some reason.


I operate in the real world, it is that black and white. That is why you are very careful to not promise what you can not provide in written contracts. In real estate you more often get a price reduction, in single machines you usually can refuse taking delivery if the machine does not fulfil agreed upon specs. That is exactly why you fix specs in the contracts.

LH did refuse the first 747-8i, it did not meet specs. Boeing managed to keep the next inside of specs, so LH took them.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Tue May 25, 2021 11:19 am

VSMUT wrote:
seahawk wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

Good for Airbus. What is stopping STC from another U-Turn?

Meanwhile Boeing should put 77X project on back burner with couple of interns and reassign resources to other projects.


EK has over ordered and the resale value of the 777Ws has dropped. There is no point in making it another A vs. B slug fest.


33 of them are actually leased. They don't have to care about resale value for those ;)


Which leaves over 90 of those in the fleet.
 
Noshow
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Tue May 25, 2021 11:21 am

LH did refuse the first 747-8i, it did not meet specs.


It had too many flight test hours and did not fit in the pre planed maintenance schedules for the rest of their -8 fleet anymore. Boeing had the tank, the flutter and the engine icing issues and needed more testing.
Last edited by Noshow on Tue May 25, 2021 11:25 am, edited 4 times in total.
 
Gremlinzzzz
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Tue May 25, 2021 12:05 pm

Tim Clark complains each and every time something is not going quite right. Amazing to think that people think that this is them trying to wriggle their way off a contract.

The plane is late, maybe they are not getting the data that the they would like to have from the manufacturer. They complained about the A380 delays, complained about Rolls Royce engines not meeting spec, so why would people think that this is any different?
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Tue May 25, 2021 12:18 pm

Noshow wrote:
LH did refuse the first 747-8i, it did not meet specs.


It had too many flight test hours and did not fit in the pre planed maintenance schedules for the rest of their -8 fleet anymore. Boeing had the tank, the flutter and the engine icing issues and needed more testing.


Whatever, it did not meat specs and lead to reduction of the order by one.

You are here also hitting on a main difference between Boeing and Airbus. Boeing tries to sell any and every development frame. Than they do not need to book that frame to cost straight away, but can defer it. If that frame costs 1.5 billion, you refurbish it for 100 million and sell it for 100 million, you get around of writing 1.5 billion to development cost and rather defer the 1.5 billion as early production cost.
Airbus keeps the development frames for testing, as they write off the cost anyway.
 
sxf24
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Tue May 25, 2021 12:19 pm

Noshow wrote:
If the contractual specs would not be met which I don't hope he could walk away. That is his right and not his fault.


Most contracts only allow termination for incredibly significant performance misses, like failure to perform certain missions within a broad payload tolerance. For typical performance shortfalls there are cash payments.

smartplane wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Many posters here find fault with Emirates. Emirates is Boeings biggest customer in regards to the 777 and now the biggest customer in regards to the 777-X.
IMO Boeing is not living up to promises.
The delivery delay is all on Boeing, or GE as it is.
If the 777-9 does not hit contractual specs in regards to the contracts with Emirates, be it the frame itself or the engines, Boeing must expect the contract being challenged by Emirates.

The other day Jim Clark complained about Boeing not affirming data in regards to the performance of the 777-9.
There have been enough test flights for Boeing to start getting real world numbers. If those numbers were good, they would be all over Emirates to tell them that they hit specs or beat specs. Boeing not doing that points to trouble.

If Emirates would cut the 777-9, that means loss of 115 orders. As the backlog of 777 is according to Boeing 266 frames only, with a few 777 mixed in, that would not leave many 777-9 on order and the question would become how viable the 777-9 is without the Emirates order.

Boeing must be relieved there are no A.Net posters on their payroll negotiating with their customers.

A milestone is approaching for 777X customers to re-affirm unconditional and conditional orders, AND qualify for Tier 2 and 3 compensation credits.

One tier covers late delivery, and the balance 'other'. Presumably EK are unwilling to accept the compensation formula until they have detailed deficit information, and a guaranteed timeframe for rectification.

As you state, given the multiple year delays, most customers would expect performance enhancement announcements to be trickling out by now, while the reverse seems to be the case.

The fact neither Boeing or EK are quoting actual performance, suggests the data doesn't exist, or Boeing isn't satisfied with the numbers, or................


Boeing does not have conditional and unconditional orders, nor credits under the structure you describe. US GAAP does not allow this.
 
T54A
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Tue May 25, 2021 12:36 pm

Considering the dog-show Boeing made of the B787, the KC46, the 737 Max and now perhaps the 777X, I think STC is perfectly correct to be piling the pressure on Boeing. Boeing has become a second rate OEM that needs a good kick in the arse. When last did they manage a proper new commercial development? B777 in the 90's?
 
Noshow
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Tue May 25, 2021 12:44 pm

The P-8 went pretty well it seems.
 
NZ321
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Tue May 25, 2021 1:00 pm

Opus99 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
HL300B4 wrote:

Everybody else is content so far because of that little thing called Covid19. They are happy not to have to pay for planed they cannot fill right now.


It also isn't forming the backbone of the fleets at any of those other carriers.

He also does not have the money to pay for them.


Whether Emirates (Clarke) has the money now - or in the future who knows? I would imagine few airlines do have such money at the moment. So that is not a particularly defensible statement at this point in time about Emirates and Tim Clarke as opposed to any other airline in waiting, other than perhaps the stakes are higher given the number of aircraft on order and therefore he is leading the conversation.

But the 777-9's woes pre-date Covid. The big underlying question IMHO - is the 777-9's performance / fuel consumption / efficiency specifications. Where is any data on this? I mean, at this stage - in the initial production / testing / certification phase - how is testing measuring up vs what was promised to customers? We typically hear comments in the form of media reports about such data in relation to new aircraft - talking about efficiency vs what was targeted in design specs. It's normally a good news story. There has been nothing to this effect with the 777-9. Could it be, that this aircraft is well shy of targeted/promised performance efficiency? Can anybody confirm this? If so, that then, perhaps, this might explain Clarke's comments as much as any other conjecture noted above.
 
mig17
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Tue May 25, 2021 1:04 pm

VV wrote:
I do not understand the Tim Clark's remark.

Unless the contract stipulates the possibility to refuse the delivery or the "walk away clause", he will have to accept delivery the aircraft.

Usually there are other clauses in the contract that clearly define the actions or the consequences of a vendor not meeting the specification.
THere are also clauses that define the consequences that a buyer must face if they do not fulfill their part of the obligations set forth in the contract.

In any case, there is always a solution defined in the contract when one party, whether it is the seller or the buyer, that breaches the terms of the agreement.

I have yet never seen a contract in industry where there isn't any customer acceptance milestones. And a customer can always refuse a product or service acceptance with the right justification.
A contract refers to specification and/or statement of work with technical and non technical requirement. When a requirement is not meet, it is a non-conformance. A non conformance can be minor, major or critical. Minor or major non-conformance can be adress by a waiver or a deviation if the customer agrees. There can be compensations linked in the process. But if the residual impact of a major non-conformance is to important, a customer can always choose to reject a major non-conformance. In that case the seller is still the one in breach of contract.

Yes, Boeing may have included some developpment reserve on both performance and planning in it's contract with Emirates, but Tim Clark's media remarks tend to indicate that at this stage, Emirates is (conveniently ...) not satisfied with the compensation package (credits, free deferment, conversion or reduction with the same discount, ...) offered by Boeing to commit further (firm tranches, progress payment, ...) and that they are ready to refuse acceptance on quality/conformity grounds.

So yes, Emirates is looking for an easy out because of bad past choices and a worldwilde crisis, but for now, Boeing is the one contractualy late and seemingly off target with it's largest 777-X customer.
 
Opus99
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Tue May 25, 2021 1:14 pm

NZ321 wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:

It also isn't forming the backbone of the fleets at any of those other carriers.

He also does not have the money to pay for them.


Whether Emirates (Clarke) has the money now - or in the future who knows? I would imagine few airlines do have such money at the moment. So that is not a particularly defensible statement at this point in time about Emirates and Tim Clarke as opposed to any other airline in waiting, other than perhaps the stakes are higher given the number of aircraft on order and therefore he is leading the conversation.

But the 777-9's woes pre-date Covid. The big underlying question IMHO - is the 777-9's performance / fuel consumption / efficiency specifications. Where is any data on this? I mean, at this stage - in the initial production / testing / certification phase - how is testing measuring up vs what was promised to customers? We typically hear comments in the form of media reports about such data in relation to new aircraft - talking about efficiency vs what was targeted in design specs. It's normally a good news story. There has been nothing to this effect with the 777-9. Could it be, that this aircraft is well shy of targeted/promised performance efficiency? Can anybody confirm this? If so, that then, perhaps, this might explain Clarke's comments as much as any other conjecture noted above.

Another thing is. He says if it’s not 100% to contractual agreements he will refuse. My question is. Aircrafts come into service all the time not quite at contractual performance and eventually get there but OEMs force delivery anyway and customers for the most part will take it. It’s a new asset, there’s a step change. Etc.

Thing is if they’ve missed, by how much? If they have and they don’t want to share then clearly they have a plan to work on it. The plane is being redesigned anyway, they might as well sort that stuff out. I mean GE was reached to for comment they say they’re happy with the performance they’ve seen so far but decline to comment if they’ve shared it with Tim Clark.

Also would it be possible they’ve shared with other customers and not him? That would not make sense but I don’t know.

Also if it’s at 90% of contractual will he reject it?


Ultimately, Boeing will obviously have no choice but to make improvements to meet spec. They’ll have to spend more money but it is what it is. ASSUMING they’ve not met spec.

Also. Can I assume everyone spec guarantee is different? We don’t know the contract so it’s very hard to actually assess what is going on.

Also Boeing has not conducted NAMS testing. So actually they cannot with full confidence confirm or deny anything. Which is a bit cheeky
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Tue May 25, 2021 2:29 pm

Opus99 wrote:
NZ321 wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
He also does not have the money to pay for them.


Whether Emirates (Clarke) has the money now - or in the future who knows? I would imagine few airlines do have such money at the moment. So that is not a particularly defensible statement at this point in time about Emirates and Tim Clarke as opposed to any other airline in waiting, other than perhaps the stakes are higher given the number of aircraft on order and therefore he is leading the conversation.

But the 777-9's woes pre-date Covid. The big underlying question IMHO - is the 777-9's performance / fuel consumption / efficiency specifications. Where is any data on this? I mean, at this stage - in the initial production / testing / certification phase - how is testing measuring up vs what was promised to customers? We typically hear comments in the form of media reports about such data in relation to new aircraft - talking about efficiency vs what was targeted in design specs. It's normally a good news story. There has been nothing to this effect with the 777-9. Could it be, that this aircraft is well shy of targeted/promised performance efficiency? Can anybody confirm this? If so, that then, perhaps, this might explain Clarke's comments as much as any other conjecture noted above.

Another thing is. He says if it’s not 100% to contractual agreements he will refuse. My question is. Aircrafts come into service all the time not quite at contractual performance and eventually get there but OEMs force delivery anyway and customers for the most part will take it. It’s a new asset, there’s a step change. Etc.

Thing is if they’ve missed, by how much? If they have and they don’t want to share then clearly they have a plan to work on it. The plane is being redesigned anyway, they might as well sort that stuff out. I mean GE was reached to for comment they say they’re happy with the performance they’ve seen so far but decline to comment if they’ve shared it with Tim Clark.

Also would it be possible they’ve shared with other customers and not him? That would not make sense but I don’t know.

Also if it’s at 90% of contractual will he reject it?


Ultimately, Boeing will obviously have no choice but to make improvements to meet spec. They’ll have to spend more money but it is what it is. ASSUMING they’ve not met spec.

Also. Can I assume everyone spec guarantee is different? We don’t know the contract so it’s very hard to actually assess what is going on.

Also Boeing has not conducted NAMS testing. So actually they cannot with full confidence confirm or deny anything. Which is a bit cheeky


Why do you always assume that it is possible for a company to make a sales contract that includes specs and that the company then not need to fulfill the contract?
Specs are usually the minimum standard. If the seller agrees to specs that he cannot fulfill, the sellers problem.
If the seller needs 20 frames to reach the specs, again his problem, than he has to sell below spec frames to somebody that excepts them for heavy discount.
If the seller can not deliver on spec and on time, it is the sellers problem not the buyers.
 
Opus99
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Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Tue May 25, 2021 2:35 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
NZ321 wrote:

Whether Emirates (Clarke) has the money now - or in the future who knows? I would imagine few airlines do have such money at the moment. So that is not a particularly defensible statement at this point in time about Emirates and Tim Clarke as opposed to any other airline in waiting, other than perhaps the stakes are higher given the number of aircraft on order and therefore he is leading the conversation.

But the 777-9's woes pre-date Covid. The big underlying question IMHO - is the 777-9's performance / fuel consumption / efficiency specifications. Where is any data on this? I mean, at this stage - in the initial production / testing / certification phase - how is testing measuring up vs what was promised to customers? We typically hear comments in the form of media reports about such data in relation to new aircraft - talking about efficiency vs what was targeted in design specs. It's normally a good news story. There has been nothing to this effect with the 777-9. Could it be, that this aircraft is well shy of targeted/promised performance efficiency? Can anybody confirm this? If so, that then, perhaps, this might explain Clarke's comments as much as any other conjecture noted above.

Another thing is. He says if it’s not 100% to contractual agreements he will refuse. My question is. Aircrafts come into service all the time not quite at contractual performance and eventually get there but OEMs force delivery anyway and customers for the most part will take it. It’s a new asset, there’s a step change. Etc.

Thing is if they’ve missed, by how much? If they have and they don’t want to share then clearly they have a plan to work on it. The plane is being redesigned anyway, they might as well sort that stuff out. I mean GE was reached to for comment they say they’re happy with the performance they’ve seen so far but decline to comment if they’ve shared it with Tim Clark.

Also would it be possible they’ve shared with other customers and not him? That would not make sense but I don’t know.

Also if it’s at 90% of contractual will he reject it?


Ultimately, Boeing will obviously have no choice but to make improvements to meet spec. They’ll have to spend more money but it is what it is. ASSUMING they’ve not met spec.

Also. Can I assume everyone spec guarantee is different? We don’t know the contract so it’s very hard to actually assess what is going on.

Also Boeing has not conducted NAMS testing. So actually they cannot with full confidence confirm or deny anything. Which is a bit cheeky


Why do you always assume that it is possible for a company to make a sales contract that includes specs and that the company then not need to fulfill the contract?
Specs are usually the minimum standard. If the seller agrees to specs that he cannot fulfill, the sellers problem.
If the seller needs 20 frames to reach the specs, again his problem, than he has to sell below spec frames to somebody that excepts them for heavy discount.
If the seller can not deliver on spec and on time, it is the sellers problem not the buyers.

Because as has been established in the past airlines have accepted delivery when contractual performance has not been fully met initially. Even Emirates has done it. So I am intrigued.

Smartplane says this is Emirates way of getting on top OEMs before delivery not after delivery.

So I want to know the tolerance level from past first deliveries? Does that disturb you?
 
Eiszeit
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Tue May 25, 2021 2:45 pm

Opus99 wrote:
NZ321 wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
He also does not have the money to pay for them.


Whether Emirates (Clarke) has the money now - or in the future who knows? I would imagine few airlines do have such money at the moment. So that is not a particularly defensible statement at this point in time about Emirates and Tim Clarke as opposed to any other airline in waiting, other than perhaps the stakes are higher given the number of aircraft on order and therefore he is leading the conversation.

But the 777-9's woes pre-date Covid. The big underlying question IMHO - is the 777-9's performance / fuel consumption / efficiency specifications. Where is any data on this? I mean, at this stage - in the initial production / testing / certification phase - how is testing measuring up vs what was promised to customers? We typically hear comments in the form of media reports about such data in relation to new aircraft - talking about efficiency vs what was targeted in design specs. It's normally a good news story. There has been nothing to this effect with the 777-9. Could it be, that this aircraft is well shy of targeted/promised performance efficiency? Can anybody confirm this? If so, that then, perhaps, this might explain Clarke's comments as much as any other conjecture noted above.

Another thing is. He says if it’s not 100% to contractual agreements he will refuse. My question is. Aircrafts come into service all the time not quite at contractual performance and eventually get there but OEMs force delivery anyway and customers for the most part will take it. It’s a new asset, there’s a step change. Etc.

Thing is if they’ve missed, by how much? If they have and they don’t want to share then clearly they have a plan to work on it. The plane is being redesigned anyway, they might as well sort that stuff out. I mean GE was reached to for comment they say they’re happy with the performance they’ve seen so far but decline to comment if they’ve shared it with Tim Clark.

Also would it be possible they’ve shared with other customers and not him? That would not make sense but I don’t know.

Also if it’s at 90% of contractual will he reject it?


Ultimately, Boeing will obviously have no choice but to make improvements to meet spec. They’ll have to spend more money but it is what it is. ASSUMING they’ve not met spec.

Also. Can I assume everyone spec guarantee is different? We don’t know the contract so it’s very hard to actually assess what is going on.

Also Boeing has not conducted NAMS testing. So actually they cannot with full confidence confirm or deny anything. Which is a bit cheeky


I dont want to sound harsh, but at 90% of promised performance every single member of boeing management and board should be in prison and their families live in shelters
 
Noshow
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Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Tue May 25, 2021 2:48 pm

The MD-11 back then didn't reach the promised range. Suddenly many given passenger routes could not be served nonstop by customer airlines. After cancellations many MD-11 went on to serve as freighters.
Do we know any final 777-9 range and performance data? Shouldn't airline customers know by now?
 
Opus99
Posts: 3553
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Tue May 25, 2021 2:55 pm

Can I ask a question. So let’s assume the plane is not on spec but Boeing says okay here it is, we are currently working on amendments to have the aircraft in spec by EIS and then showing him now that the aircraft is in spec actually but actually we still can’t deliver till 2023.

So if they’re in spec. Will he take the aircraft? If they’re not in spec and plan to meet it at EIS will he not take it? Ultimately what is the difference in terms of spec.

Boeing has not done NAMs yet I don’t know why but we know the aircraft is being redesigned so they might want to wait for that? I don’t know.
 
Opus99
Posts: 3553
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Tue May 25, 2021 2:57 pm

Eiszeit wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
NZ321 wrote:

Whether Emirates (Clarke) has the money now - or in the future who knows? I would imagine few airlines do have such money at the moment. So that is not a particularly defensible statement at this point in time about Emirates and Tim Clarke as opposed to any other airline in waiting, other than perhaps the stakes are higher given the number of aircraft on order and therefore he is leading the conversation.

But the 777-9's woes pre-date Covid. The big underlying question IMHO - is the 777-9's performance / fuel consumption / efficiency specifications. Where is any data on this? I mean, at this stage - in the initial production / testing / certification phase - how is testing measuring up vs what was promised to customers? We typically hear comments in the form of media reports about such data in relation to new aircraft - talking about efficiency vs what was targeted in design specs. It's normally a good news story. There has been nothing to this effect with the 777-9. Could it be, that this aircraft is well shy of targeted/promised performance efficiency? Can anybody confirm this? If so, that then, perhaps, this might explain Clarke's comments as much as any other conjecture noted above.

Another thing is. He says if it’s not 100% to contractual agreements he will refuse. My question is. Aircrafts come into service all the time not quite at contractual performance and eventually get there but OEMs force delivery anyway and customers for the most part will take it. It’s a new asset, there’s a step change. Etc.

Thing is if they’ve missed, by how much? If they have and they don’t want to share then clearly they have a plan to work on it. The plane is being redesigned anyway, they might as well sort that stuff out. I mean GE was reached to for comment they say they’re happy with the performance they’ve seen so far but decline to comment if they’ve shared it with Tim Clark.

Also would it be possible they’ve shared with other customers and not him? That would not make sense but I don’t know.

Also if it’s at 90% of contractual will he reject it?


Ultimately, Boeing will obviously have no choice but to make improvements to meet spec. They’ll have to spend more money but it is what it is. ASSUMING they’ve not met spec.

Also. Can I assume everyone spec guarantee is different? We don’t know the contract so it’s very hard to actually assess what is going on.

Also Boeing has not conducted NAMS testing. So actually they cannot with full confidence confirm or deny anything. Which is a bit cheeky


I dont want to sound harsh, but at 90% of promised performance every single member of boeing management and board should be in prison and their families live in shelters

I mean initially. Not overall.

Why are people behaving as if OEMs always deliver 100% what they promised in the first few frames.
 
Noshow
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Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Tue May 25, 2021 3:02 pm

What exactly is redesigned and why?
 
Opus99
Posts: 3553
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Tue May 25, 2021 3:04 pm

Noshow wrote:
What exactly is redesigned and why?

Apparently actuators are being redesigned. Boeing wasn’t very specific. They just said both firmware and software changes have to be made to the aircraft. That’s really what we have

Also to meet regulatory requirements
 
User avatar
Revelation
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Tue May 25, 2021 3:07 pm

Eiszeit wrote:
I dont want to sound harsh, but at 90% of promised performance every single member of boeing management and board should be in prison and their families live in shelters

I agree. The "train wreck" comments don't sound plausible to me. We heard lots about looming 787 problems back in the day, we hear about every problem drilling holes on 737, we heard about 779 missing wing ultimate load via 149% instead of 150%, we heard about "durability issues" on GE9x, we have a dozen or so 779s assembled and four doing test flights, if there was a "train wreck" looming I'm confident we'd have heard of it by now. Computer modeling is far too advanced to miss by a huge margin. We have had statements on the delays, the regulators have their concerns about actuators, lessons from the 737 are being incorporated, etc. More than enough to chew through a two year delay.

To me, the STC venting is far more likely to be him trying to avoid talking about the current issues at his airline by churning up questions about a product he won't receive for at least two more years.

Opus99 wrote:
Can I ask a question. So let’s assume the plane is not on spec but Boeing says okay here it is, we are currently working on amendments to have the aircraft in spec by EIS and then showing him now that the aircraft is in spec actually but actually we still can’t deliver till 2023.

So if they’re in spec. Will he take the aircraft? If they’re not in spec and plan to meet it at EIS will he not take it? Ultimately what is the difference in terms of spec.

Boeing has not done NAMs yet I don’t know why but we know the aircraft is being redesigned so they might want to wait for that? I don’t know.

It's pretty likely he himself won't be there to make that decision, which again makes it curious that he's raising a ruckus about something so far in the future.
 
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Tue May 25, 2021 3:24 pm

Opus99 wrote:
Can I ask a question. So let’s assume the plane is not on spec but Boeing says okay here it is, we are currently working on amendments to have the aircraft in spec by EIS and then showing him now that the aircraft is in spec actually but actually we still can’t deliver till 2023.

So if they’re in spec. Will he take the aircraft? If they’re not in spec and plan to meet it at EIS will he not take it? Ultimately what is the difference in terms of spec.

Boeing has not done NAMs yet I don’t know why but we know the aircraft is being redesigned so they might want to wait for that? I don’t know.

If in spec at delivery, contract is met.

The issue is also deliveries are late which is out of contract.

Lightsaber
 
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Tue May 25, 2021 3:39 pm

Opus99 wrote:
Why are people behaving as if OEMs always deliver 100% what they promised in the first few frames.

I think it's good for the industry to have STC make an issue of delivery quality, regardless of the idea that this could also be self-serving.

As you suggest, though, the entire industry does understand that things such as performance and durability cannot be known in advance, and contracts are structured with penalties for shortfalls due to this realization.

And IMO it's fair to suggest vendors can and do look at the penalties versus the cost to avoid the penalties and can decide it's better for them to just pay the penalty.

Here we have an interesting situation with STC saying he will refuse delivery if not per contract, but also saying he doesn't have the data to know if it is per contract or not, and we have at least two years before delivery so a good deal of time to get into spec if not already there.

Seems this is all premature, which makes one wonder why he protests so much. It does seem to draw a lot of aviation media attention. Maybe he's using that to his advantage?
 
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Re: Emirates adds MIA from July 21st, 2021

Tue May 25, 2021 3:53 pm

Please don't post childish nonsene and please keep politics out of the discussion.
 
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Tue May 25, 2021 3:53 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
VV wrote:
I do not understand the Tim Clark's remark.

Unless the contract stipulates the possibility to refuse the delivery or the "walk away clause", he will have to accept delivery the aircraft.

Usually there are other clauses in the contract that clearly define the actions or the consequences of a vendor not meeting the specification.
THere are also clauses that define the consequences that a buyer must face if they do not fulfill their part of the obligations set forth in the contract.

In any case, there is always a solution defined in the contract when one party, whether it is the seller or the buyer, that breaches the terms of the agreement.


I do not understand Tim Clark's comment. Has he succeeded to put a "walk away clause' in his contract?

If he did not then he has to stick with what he and Boeing signed, including the remedy related to the breach of the contract.
Or does he has an strange people in his flight operations department that are trying to show off in front of the management?

Perhaps he should look down into his organization to see whether there are mediocre people who want to gain some level of visibility in the company by reporting unnecessary stuff to the management.
Maybe that's the way it works at Emirates. Maybe you have to always justify your position and your salary by attracting the attention of the bosses by telling "interesting" reports.

Unfortunately the bosses can ramble about incoherent stuff in public based on those reports and make themselves sound silly.


You hardly need a walk away clause in the contract if the producer does not provide what was ordered and confirmed. If the product does not fulfill the agreed upon specs, Boeing will be in trouble. Small deviations excluded.


I am pretty sure there are remedies against any deviation.
Either you have the walk away clause or you don't. If you don't then you just suck it up.
 
VV
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Tue May 25, 2021 3:56 pm

After reading the comments above, I come to the conclusion that many people here thinks Tim Clark should just walk away from the 777X order.

Maybe that's exactly what he needs to do instead of saying it again and again.
He needs just to do it.

He can then order a lot of A350-1000 instead and then keep silent.
 
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Tue May 25, 2021 4:02 pm

VV wrote:
After reading the comments above, I come to the conclusion that many people here thinks Tim Clark should just walk away from the 777X order.

Maybe that's exactly what he needs to do instead of saying it again and again.
He needs just to do it.

He can then order a lot of A350-1000 instead and then keep silent.

IIRC he already did have a lot of A350-1000s on order and did not remain silent, so I'm not sure we should expect that from him.
 
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Re: Emirates adds MIA from July 21st, 2021

Tue May 25, 2021 4:05 pm

stl07 wrote:
FLL never made any sense. Who in the UAE knows what FLL is lol?

Not sure why my post responding to this question was deleted but not the question itself, so let me try again?
Who in the UAE knows where Dulles or Tacoma is? EK sold FLL as Miami. People bought a ticket to Miami much in the same way people by a ticket to Washington or to Seattle. Heck, millions of people buy a ticket to New York and end up in a completely different state, in New Jersey.
Whether FLL ever made sense or not I'm pretty sure the people at EK knew better.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Tue May 25, 2021 4:06 pm

Opus99 wrote:
Eiszeit wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
Another thing is. He says if it’s not 100% to contractual agreements he will refuse. My question is. Aircrafts come into service all the time not quite at contractual performance and eventually get there but OEMs force delivery anyway and customers for the most part will take it. It’s a new asset, there’s a step change. Etc.

Thing is if they’ve missed, by how much? If they have and they don’t want to share then clearly they have a plan to work on it. The plane is being redesigned anyway, they might as well sort that stuff out. I mean GE was reached to for comment they say they’re happy with the performance they’ve seen so far but decline to comment if they’ve shared it with Tim Clark.

Also would it be possible they’ve shared with other customers and not him? That would not make sense but I don’t know.

Also if it’s at 90% of contractual will he reject it?


Ultimately, Boeing will obviously have no choice but to make improvements to meet spec. They’ll have to spend more money but it is what it is. ASSUMING they’ve not met spec.

Also. Can I assume everyone spec guarantee is different? We don’t know the contract so it’s very hard to actually assess what is going on.

Also Boeing has not conducted NAMS testing. So actually they cannot with full confidence confirm or deny anything. Which is a bit cheeky


I dont want to sound harsh, but at 90% of promised performance every single member of boeing management and board should be in prison and their families live in shelters

I mean initially. Not overall.

Why are people behaving as if OEMs always deliver 100% what they promised in the first few frames.


Why are people behaving that it is normal for a producer to not meet specs. Specs is minimum, not maximum.

If you remember the 787, Boeing could not sell some of the early frames to the airlines that had 787 on order.
Boeing had to donate 3 to aviation museums, had to scrap 2, ANA got 3 on huge discounts, most of the rest of the first 20 went to Ethiopian on a fire sale plus a few BBJ.
That is perhaps not to bad if you are expecting sales in the thousands, but not so good when you sell only a few hundred.
 
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Tue May 25, 2021 4:34 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
Can I ask a question. So let’s assume the plane is not on spec but Boeing says okay here it is, we are currently working on amendments to have the aircraft in spec by EIS and then showing him now that the aircraft is in spec actually but actually we still can’t deliver till 2023.

So if they’re in spec. Will he take the aircraft? If they’re not in spec and plan to meet it at EIS will he not take it? Ultimately what is the difference in terms of spec.

Boeing has not done NAMs yet I don’t know why but we know the aircraft is being redesigned so they might want to wait for that? I don’t know.

If in spec at delivery, contract is met.

The issue is also deliveries are late which is out of contract.

Lightsaber


It is interesting that Clark's chief competitor, al-Baker seems strangely mute about the progress of the B77X program and still plans to take them as scheduled. And al-Baker is the guy who once rejected A350 early deliveries over dissatisfaction over carpet installations in their cabins.

As for the performance guarantees of the B77X program and if the aircraft will meet them, the jury is still out. However, Boeing will be better off working to fix issues and meet specs, than forcing themselves to meet contractural schedules. They cannot afford the "we'll fix it under warranty" mistakes they made with the B787.

Noshow wrote:
The MD-11 back then didn't reach the promised range. Suddenly many given passenger routes could not be served nonstop by customer airlines.


The reasons for the commercial failure of the MD-11 program should have been a lesson to Boeing during the B787 program, but they ignored them. MDD put out production MD-11's knowing full well that it did not meet payload/range specs in order to meet schedules and send St. Louis HQ some quick billings. SQ "smelled a rat" early on the possible range issue after reviewing the final design and cancelled their orders before any could be delivered. However, DL & AA took deliveries of early production models and found out quickly that, not only did they not meet range/payload specs, but that bugs in their all-new MD-11 avionics suite caused lots of operational issues, too.
 
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Tue May 25, 2021 4:36 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
[Why are people behaving that it is normal for a producer to not meet specs.

Plenty more examples to choose from. 787 had weight problems early, A380 of course with its early examples with wiring patched by hand and excess weight, the first 20 A340-600s being referred to as the "heavy wing" version and being dumped early by EK, MD11 missing range targets and being dumped early by AA and SQ, early GE90 problems on 777x, early GTF problems on A320neo, etc. It's gotten to the point it's hard to get museums to take the early clunkers.
 
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Tue May 25, 2021 4:55 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
Eiszeit wrote:

I dont want to sound harsh, but at 90% of promised performance every single member of boeing management and board should be in prison and their families live in shelters

I mean initially. Not overall.

Why are people behaving as if OEMs always deliver 100% what they promised in the first few frames.


Why are people behaving that it is normal for a producer to not meet specs. Specs is minimum, not maximum.

If you remember the 787, Boeing could not sell some of the early frames to the airlines that had 787 on order.
Boeing had to donate 3 to aviation museums, had to scrap 2, ANA got 3 on huge discounts, most of the rest of the first 20 went to Ethiopian on a fire sale plus a few BBJ.
That is perhaps not to bad if you are expecting sales in the thousands, but not so good when you sell only a few hundred.


Depending who do you ask, 788 was not up to spec upto LN#100 may be even higher. Many customers took delivery and compensated later. RR issue showed up years later after EIS.

What is so special with STC??? If he doesn't want for any reason he can cancel. If Boeing thinks this is too much it can cancel like Airbus ended A380 against wishes of STC.

The probability of walking away from a two party relationship(contract) is always 50:50, even if one is making noise and other one is silent.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Tue May 25, 2021 4:58 pm

Revelation wrote:
the first 20 A340-600s being referred to as the "heavy wing" version and being dumped early by EK


Emirates never had the A340-600.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Tue May 25, 2021 4:59 pm

mjoelnir wrote:

Why do you always assume that it is possible for a company to make a sales contract that includes specs and that the company then not need to fulfill the contract?


I'm willing to bet that the purchase agreement is adjudicated under U.S. law. As was explained to you above, minor spec shortfalls can be negotiated, with resulting future discounts or cash payments as likely outcomes. Trivial differences will be ignored. 'Not exactly what we ordered' isn't the legal standard. People and firms who don't grasp that really shouldn't place orders when programs are still under development.
 
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Tue May 25, 2021 5:07 pm

FLALEFTY wrote:
And al-Baker is the guy who once rejected A350 early deliveries over dissatisfaction over carpet installations in their cabins.

Since I got chided on this above, I did some googling and found:

Airbus said Qatar’s A380 had been delayed as the airline had been very “demanding” in its specifications. The carrier found fault in the texturing of the paint, the interior cabin decor foils, which are similar to wallpaper, and the jet’s non-textile floors, which are prevalent in the galley area. Those large galley structures now have to be removed to lay new flooring in a time-consuming process.

Ref: https://onemileatatime.com/qatar-airway ... ery-a380s/

Seems the A380 was delayed due to issues with the interior in general and galley flooring in particular, but not exactly carpet. Yet it seems the carpet meme resonates better and has stuck with people, and getting it unstuck is a challenge, one I won't be taking up.

https://www.ibtimes.com/qatar-airways-r ... ys-1747535 says QR did refuse delivery of the first A350 for unknown reasons, and my googling never found anything more specific than that.

VSMUT wrote:
Revelation wrote:
the first 20 A340-600s being referred to as the "heavy wing" version and being dumped early by EK

Emirates never had the A340-600.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emirates_fleet says:

On 31 October 2006, Emirates cancelled an order for 20 Airbus A340-600 aircraft, ending a delay in the delivery of the aircraft pending enhancements.

I''ll leave it up to others to decide if this qualifies as "dumped early" or not.
 
Exeiowa
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Tue May 25, 2021 5:17 pm

I think they got burned on promises for other large aircraft performance and do not want to get burned again even though this time its the other group. It is understandable, they need margin on volume for their model to work and other players using a different geography have different considerations in the economic calculations and they cannot be locked into a bad spot because of unmet targets.

It could also just be a genitalia measuring contest between people who have upset each other. I am starting to think, the more I learn that large businesses are more like medieval feudalism than capitalistic enterprises, where the rewards go to the controllers.
 
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Tue May 25, 2021 5:34 pm

Opus99 wrote:
Can I ask a question. So let’s assume the plane is not on spec but Boeing says okay here it is, we are currently working on amendments to have the aircraft in spec by EIS and then showing him now that the aircraft is in spec actually but actually we still can’t deliver till 2023.

So if they’re in spec. Will he take the aircraft? If they’re not in spec and plan to meet it at EIS will he not take it? Ultimately what is the difference in terms of spec.

Boeing has not done NAMs yet I don’t know why but we know the aircraft is being redesigned so they might want to wait for that? I don’t know.


Just using your post as a general prompt...
I haven't quite worked out why the focus has gone so much onto performance shortfalls.
I'm pretty sure his main gripe is he doesn't know when he's getting them and Boeing isn't telling him.
There's far more likelihood of Boeing being outside contract conditions on delivery than there is on performance with the 777X in my opinion.
And I'm pretty sure they are.

And if he's moaning because in reality he hasn't got the money, he may just be better off punting the 777X's down the road, and getting those A380's back into service to cover off as demand recovers..

Rgds
 
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Tue May 25, 2021 5:37 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
What is so special with STC??? If he doesn't want for any reason he can cancel. If Boeing thinks this is too much it can cancel like Airbus ended A380 against wishes of STC.

Since we seem to be in pedantry mode in this thread, I feel I should point out that it was EK's request to reduce its A380 orderbook that ended the program:

Following a review of its operations, and in light of developments in aircraft and engine technologies, Emirates is reducing its A380 orderbook from 162 to 123 aircraft. Emirates will take delivery of 14 further A380s over the next two years. As a consequence and given the lack of order backlog with other airlines, Airbus will cease deliveries of the A380 in 2021

Ref: https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... rders.html

As for the 779 order, Boeing's problem should be obvious, there just isn't another customer sitting around waiting to take EK's order so it really has no choice but to sit back and let STC air his complaints in public without regard to their merit or motivation, and try to quietly find solutions in private. There is no upside in it for Boeing to get into a public back-and-forth with him.

What makes STC special is he the CEO of a company that has made $billions in commitments to the 779 program, and there isn't a second company sitting around willing to take those orders, especially not in the current climate. I presume the situation is being worked outside of the public gaze.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Tue May 25, 2021 5:48 pm

Revelation wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Revelation wrote:
the first 20 A340-600s being referred to as the "heavy wing" version and being dumped early by EK

Emirates never had the A340-600.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emirates_fleet says:

On 31 October 2006, Emirates cancelled an order for 20 Airbus A340-600 aircraft, ending a delay in the delivery of the aircraft pending enhancements.

I''ll leave it up to others to decide if this qualifies as "dumped early" or not.


That's right, but those would have been far from early. They were scheduled for delivery 4 years after the type had its EIS and were even going to be of the improved HGW variant.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Tue May 25, 2021 5:59 pm

Revelation wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
What is so special with STC??? If he doesn't want for any reason he can cancel. If Boeing thinks this is too much it can cancel like Airbus ended A380 against wishes of STC.

Since we seem to be in pedantry mode in this thread, I feel I should point out that it was EK's request to reduce its A380 orderbook that ended the program:

Following a review of its operations, and in light of developments in aircraft and engine technologies, Emirates is reducing its A380 orderbook from 162 to 123 aircraft. Emirates will take delivery of 14 further A380s over the next two years. As a consequence and given the lack of order backlog with other airlines, Airbus will cease deliveries of the A380 in 2021

Ref: https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... rders.html

As for the 779 order, Boeing's problem should be obvious, there just isn't another customer sitting around waiting to take EK's order so it really has no choice but to sit back and let STC air his complaints in public without regard to their merit or motivation, and try to quietly find solutions in private. There is no upside in it for Boeing to get into a public back-and-forth with him.

What makes STC special is he the CEO of a company that has made $billions in commitments to the 779 program, and there isn't a second company sitting around willing to take those orders, especially not in the current climate. I presume the situation is being worked outside of the public gaze.


That was a strategic mistake on Boeing's part, dealing with him years later.

When STC asked for A380NEO, Airbus+RR didn't sink few $Billions trusting the guy. First showed paper drawings, later 3D printed some parts and rearranged seats and called it A380PLUS. Take it or leave. STC walked away and a good excuse for Airbus to end slow production A380 program.

Boeing trusted him and sunk $Billions into 779, now in a pickle.
 
Opus99
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Tue May 25, 2021 6:02 pm

Another question. Because STC was the major push for this jet. Given Boeing were hesitant to build it in the first place but he insisted. Is it possible Boeing would’ve asked Emirates to commit to a minimum number of deliveries? Or that sort of thing doesn’t happen?
 
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Tue May 25, 2021 6:07 pm

May I kindly remind you to keep this thread on topic. Subject of discussion is not a in depth discussion of Emirates gistorical orderbook, but his recent statement about the 777X. Thanks.
 
PITFlyer330
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Re: Emirates adds MIA from July 21st, 2021

Tue May 25, 2021 6:09 pm

does anyone know when this will be bookable or on sale? Im trying to target a bunch of inaugurals with covid being not much of a problem anymore
 
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Boiler905
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Re: Emirates adds MIA from July 21st, 2021

Tue May 25, 2021 6:10 pm

This is either cargo driven or a new cruise corporate client driven.

The international market out of MIA is predominantly South America and Europe, middle east/Asia etc is tiny compared to those and not enough to sustain 3 airlines.

Someone will call it quits eventually, and my money is on EK pulling out first.
 
Breathe
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Re: Tim Clark: Emirates will refuse B777X delivery if not per contract

Tue May 25, 2021 6:14 pm

From an arm chair CEO point of view, it could be looked at as way of public sabre rattling by Emirates to renegotiate its B777X deal.

If there is a delay to the delivery date, you'd be a bad business person to not take advantage of any clauses for delays in the order contract. Be it financial compensation or the ability to negotiate to lower the order book/convert to a different aircraft type without any financial penalties. Perhaps Emirates in reality don't want the planes delivered in 2023 and would rather that their deliveries were pushed back without any penalities, but will take advantage of the contract if it states they are supposed to receive their first deliveries in 2023.

Just my 2 pence.

I'll let the disturbing Airbus and Boeing corporate hero worshipping fanboi's get on with their arguing... :biggrin:
 
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Miami
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Re: Emirates adds MIA from July 21st, 2021

Tue May 25, 2021 6:17 pm

Boiler905 wrote:
Someone will call it quits eventually, and my money is on EK pulling out first.


Good luck and be prepared to lose money because they have plans for the long run. Don't have to believe me, just wait and see.
 
MartijnNL
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Re: Emirates adds MIA from July 21st, 2021

Tue May 25, 2021 6:41 pm

airbazar wrote:
Heck, millions of people buy a ticket to New York and end up in a completely different state, in New Jersey.

These people come to visit New York City, not New York State. Newark is conveniently close to Manhattan. It doesn't matter to them that the airport is in another state than the city.
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