Starting from 31OCT21, the A380 will be re-scheduled on the DXB-MXP-JFK flight.

In latest Emirates's IG post, they are looking to hire 3,000 new cabin crew and 500 airport services employees to join their Dubai hub.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CT4wI8YJ8_y ... _copy_link

Hi folks!
I have done a search for similar topics and nothing came up, so politely point out if I missed something, and don't flame me.

In a couple of years, Emirates will receive their first A350-900 & 787-9 aircraft. Most articles so far point out unserved markets that EK would be able to reach economically like Mexico City, secondary cities in South America and further new destinations in Africa. I think what has been missed entirely is going for increased frequency in currently served markets where frequency restrictions do not exist and the market is strong and growing.

Qatar Airways services to Lagos are a great example of how a smaller plane with increased frequency are a better alternative than one single daily flight on a larger aircraft. Double daily 787-8 service allows more connections at the Doha hub.

As a West African I tend to be more familiar with that region, and it would not shock me to see Dakar and Conakry increase frequency from current 4x weekly with smaller aircraft than present 77W. 77W is simply too much plane for some markets.

I wonder if EK will one-up QR by presenting a First Class cabin on these smaller birds. If BA can pull it off (787-9 only), then surely the mighty EK can. Right?

Anyone see it differently? How else can this play out? Let's speculate away!

I think these aircraft can't come quickly enough for EK. The pandemic must have really brought home to EK the fact that having a 350/440 seater aircraft (depending on the 77W's config) as your smallest aircraft is not ideal. It certainly does not allow the level of frequency they would like, whatever about adding new routes - which probably won't happen for a while, at least until one of the new types is in service.

I think the days of F class are over, apart from premium markets like London, SIN, SYD and some US markets. I'd be surprised if either type had a F class section; I'd expect both to have a three class - J/W/Y config. A good J class on an airline like EK/QR gives you all the convenience and privacy you could reasonably want. If you think of it this way; EK has probably already tapped all of the likely premium markets it can, already, so any new markets would not likely be premium heavy. I can see EK going back to ADL and adding some new US cities, maybe DEN/LAS, possibly YVR or YYC in Canada, or secondary Japanese and Chinese cities.

Spitballing here, but I wonder if the continuing issues with the 787 might cause EK to seek earlier A359 deliveries, or even rejig the order in favour of A350s? I suspect they really can't get a "smaller" widebody soon enough.

kaitak wrote:

I think these aircraft can't come quickly enough for EK. The pandemic must have really brought home to EK the fact that having a 350/440 seater aircraft (depending on the 77W's config) as your smallest aircraft is not ideal. It certainly does not allow the level of frequency they would like, whatever about adding new routes - which probably won't happen for a while, at least until one of the new types is in service.

I think the days of F class are over, apart from premium markets like London, SIN, SYD and some US markets. I'd be surprised if either type had a F class section; I'd expect both to have a three class - J/W/Y config. A good J class on an airline like EK/QR gives you all the convenience and privacy you could reasonably want. If you think of it this way; EK has probably already tapped all of the likely premium markets it can, already, so any new markets would not likely be premium heavy. I can see EK going back to ADL and adding some new US cities, maybe DEN/LAS, possibly YVR or YYC in Canada, or secondary Japanese and Chinese cities.

Spitballing here, but I wonder if the continuing issues with the 787 might cause EK to seek earlier A359 deliveries, or even rejig the order in favour of A350s? I suspect they really can't get a "smaller" widebody soon enough.

Interesting comments. Yes, you are right to assume most F traffic is already served by EK in potential markets or with 77W when market matures and is "upgauged". Wishful thinking on my part.

Canada is insanely protective of Air Canada so no, there will not be a new city served before Toronto goes daily. Can't see it happening.
Western Canada sure could use some premium competition. KLM is not a premium airline. I don't care what anyone says.

ghdc10 wrote:

Hi folks!
I have done a search for similar topics and nothing came up, so politely point out if I missed something, and don't flame me.

In a couple of years, Emirates will receive their first A350-900 & 787-9 aircraft. Most articles so far point out unserved markets that EK would be able to reach economically like Mexico City, secondary cities in South America and further new destinations in Africa. I think what has been missed entirely is going for increased frequency in currently served markets where frequency restrictions do not exist and the market is strong and growing.

Qatar Airways services to Lagos are a great example of how a smaller plane with increased frequency are a better alternative than one single daily flight on a larger aircraft. Double daily 787-8 service allows more connections at the Doha hub.

As a West African I tend to be more familiar with that region, and it would not shock me to see Dakar and Conakry increase frequency from current 4x weekly with smaller aircraft than present 77W. 77W is simply too much plane for some markets.

I wonder if EK will one-up QR by presenting a First Class cabin on these smaller birds. If BA can pull it off (787-9 only), then surely the mighty EK can. Right?

Anyone see it differently? How else can this play out? Let's speculate away!

What is the actual plan for the 789/359 fleets? I would think quite a few will replace 77Ws, both long haul and short haul, so maybe there will be some A359s with a 4 class configuration? I think I recall reading they would use them on flights up to 12hrs some time ago? While longer flights will transition to 779s when they come into the fleet. While others will as you say right size markets where the 77W is to big so they can increase frequency, EK are the kings when it comes to connections, when the market was good pre covid they did amazingly well with just A380/77W, plus 10 77Ls, but very little flexibility on smaller routes. DXB was pretty full so there wasn't much room in peak hub times for more flights, when do they move to DWC?

The main issue facing EK with these smaller frames is slots in DXB. Pre-Covid everything was simply build around increasing the seat count per slot. That restriction is still there. There will be no DWC for at least the next decade IMHO. And now flydubai will shortly be 30% bigger than they ever were before, and growing. DXB has to build another inb/out peak/wave and sort out where to park all these aircraft. It is tight right now, let alone pre-covid levels and add more to that!

Avgeek21 wrote:

The main issue facing EK with these smaller frames is slots in DXB. Pre-Covid everything was simply build around increasing the seat count per slot. That restriction is still there. There will be no DWC for at least the next decade IMHO. And now flydubai will shortly be 30% bigger than they ever were before, and growing. DXB has to build another inb/out peak/wave and sort out where to park all these aircraft. It is tight right now, let alone pre-covid levels and add more to that!

A decade? Certainly raises some questions then doesn’t it. Interesting times for EK then.

I wonder what they will use for their smaller ULH route replacement? A380s fly the like of AKL/LAX/SFO, there are 10 77Ls with no F now that do a handful of ULH routes while 77Ws have seats blocked on other 16hr flights. The 779 has a similar range to the 77W. So what configurations they use will be interesting. A 4 class A359 for ULH? How many would that seat, 280? 789 in a J, W, Y layout for medium haul? But then the 781 maybe better as it is very efficient up to 10hrs so could cover Europe and Asia while carrying more than the 789 but similar to say a 3 class 359.

Boston would possibly be an example where double-daily on smaller planes would work better with the JetBlue connections at the Logan end.

As it looks currently the 77W's would mostly be replaced by the 77X of which all are intended to receive F, likely 6 per aircraft. For the A359's and Dreamliners no F is intended to be installed on any of the frames as per current status.

chrisnh wrote:

Boston would possibly be an example where double-daily on smaller planes would work better with the JetBlue connections at the Logan end.

Similarly, pre-covid, I heard that EK was very annoyed at SFO because SFO wouldn't give them another departure slot to add on a daily 77W flight in addition to the daily A380 – they were apparently so angry that they ended up threatening SFO that they would give the second frequency to SJC. Shame none of that ever happened, but this is also an example of EK wishing to add on a smaller plane (77W as opposed to A380) to increase connectivity over their Dubai banks.

ZK-NBT wrote:

Avgeek21 wrote:

The main issue facing EK with these smaller frames is slots in DXB. Pre-Covid everything was simply build around increasing the seat count per slot. That restriction is still there. There will be no DWC for at least the next decade IMHO. And now flydubai will shortly be 30% bigger than they ever were before, and growing. DXB has to build another inb/out peak/wave and sort out where to park all these aircraft. It is tight right now, let alone pre-covid levels and add more to that!

A decade? Certainly raises some questions then doesn’t it. Interesting times for EK then.

I wonder what they will use for their smaller ULH route replacement? A380s fly the like of AKL/LAX/SFO, there are 10 77Ls with no F now that do a handful of ULH routes while 77Ws have seats blocked on other 16hr flights. The 779 has a similar range to the 77W. So what configurations they use will be interesting. A 4 class A359 for ULH? How many would that seat, 280? 789 in a J, W, Y layout for medium haul? But then the 781 maybe better as it is very efficient up to 10hrs so could cover Europe and Asia while carrying more than the 789 but similar to say a 3 class 359.

I'd say that slots at DXB are certainly an impediment to growth, but as are bilateral restrictions with many countries.

Almost every country where obvious expansion could be had has limited EK's growth within the country by way of seat restriction, or weekly flights. India - maxed out, China - maxed out, South Africa - maxed out, Canada - maxed out, Germany - limited to existing city allotment, Australia - close to maxed out... the list goes on. For this reason, I don't think we're going to see a significant adjustment in terms for down-gauging 380s/777s to 359s or 789s in many markets. The existing hub structure is well positioned around maximum feed into the three existing banks of flights (approx. midnight - 3am; 7am - 10am; and 1pm - 3pm), with the first two banks almost completely maxed out of slots.

For this reason, I do think adding additional destinations will be very challenging. I have noticed that FZ has occupied an increasing number of slots in the peak time departures I noted. Perhaps EK can absorb these in time to add some smaller cities with the 789/359.

I do believe there is a limited potential of down-gauging that could occur where restrictions are not as strict; SEA, DFW, ORD, and MCO come to mind as obvious destinations in the US where I could easily see 2 x daily 359/789 in lieu of the existing 1 daily 77W/77L service. Some smaller/lower yielding European destinations like WAW, ARN, CPH, and VCE are other such candidates too. Of the European services I noted, these services occupy existing 7am - 10am slots, but could probably have second dailies in the 1pm - 3pm block which is slightly less slot constrained at DXB than the other two.

What I could also see as a significant possibility is the build up of another significant departure block between 9pm and 11pm. Currently, this block is fed mostly by European arrivals (that departed DXB in the midnight - 3am block) and the N. American arrivals (that departed DXB in the 7am - 10am block). Current departures between 9pm and 11pm are mostly sub-continent bound with a few east-Asian departures (EK 374/396/432 BKK/HKT/SIN) and a few Australian departures (EK 416/432 SYD/BNE). I could certainly see additions to AKL, MEL, CPT, MRU, and CMB as easy additions to this bank with the 789/359.

Airlinerdude wrote:

ZK-NBT wrote:

Avgeek21 wrote:

The main issue facing EK with these smaller frames is slots in DXB. Pre-Covid everything was simply build around increasing the seat count per slot. That restriction is still there. There will be no DWC for at least the next decade IMHO. And now flydubai will shortly be 30% bigger than they ever were before, and growing. DXB has to build another inb/out peak/wave and sort out where to park all these aircraft. It is tight right now, let alone pre-covid levels and add more to that!

A decade? Certainly raises some questions then doesn’t it. Interesting times for EK then.

I wonder what they will use for their smaller ULH route replacement? A380s fly the like of AKL/LAX/SFO, there are 10 77Ls with no F now that do a handful of ULH routes while 77Ws have seats blocked on other 16hr flights. The 779 has a similar range to the 77W. So what configurations they use will be interesting. A 4 class A359 for ULH? How many would that seat, 280? 789 in a J, W, Y layout for medium haul? But then the 781 maybe better as it is very efficient up to 10hrs so could cover Europe and Asia while carrying more than the 789 but similar to say a 3 class 359.

I'd say that slots at DXB are certainly an impediment to growth, but as are bilateral restrictions with many countries.

Almost every country where obvious expansion could be had has limited EK's growth within the country by way of seat restriction, or weekly flights. India - maxed out, China - maxed out, South Africa - maxed out, Canada - maxed out, Germany - limited to existing city allotment, Australia - close to maxed out... the list goes on. For this reason, I don't think we're going to see a significant adjustment in terms for down-gauging 380s/777s to 359s or 789s in many markets. The existing hub structure is well positioned around maximum feed into the three existing banks of flights (approx. midnight - 3am; 7am - 10am; and 1pm - 3pm), with the first two banks almost completely maxed out of slots.

For this reason, I do think adding additional destinations will be very challenging. I have noticed that FZ has occupied an increasing number of slots in the peak time departures I noted. Perhaps EK can absorb these in time to add some smaller cities with the 789/359.

I do believe there is a limited potential of down-gauging that could occur where restrictions are not as strict; SEA, DFW, ORD, and MCO come to mind as obvious destinations in the US where I could easily see 2 x daily 359/789 in lieu of the existing 1 daily 77W/77L service. Some smaller/lower yielding European destinations like WAW, ARN, CPH, and VCE are other such candidates too. Of the European services I noted, these services occupy existing 7am - 10am slots, but could probably have second dailies in the 1pm - 3pm block which is slightly less slot constrained at DXB than the other two.

What I could also see as a significant possibility is the build up of another significant departure block between 9pm and 11pm. Currently, this block is fed mostly by European arrivals (that departed DXB in the midnight - 3am block) and the N. American arrivals (that departed DXB in the 7am - 10am block). Current departures between 9pm and 11pm are mostly sub-continent bound with a few east-Asian departures (EK 374/396/432 BKK/HKT/SIN) and a few Australian departures (EK 416/432 SYD/BNE). I could certainly see additions to AKL, MEL, CPT, MRU, and CMB as easy additions to this bank with the 789/359.

It is a good point you make on bilaterals. Some of these are obviously on the number of flights so the 77W/A380 make sense, some are probably also number of seats per week?

They will probably where it’s possible need to add an additional bank as you say 2100-2300. Some of the longer routes it’s often hard to imagine so many flights on a 14hr plus route, only a model like EK. How many long haul routes are 4 daily outside of LHR which isn’t long haul? JFK was with 1 via MXP, SYD at one point was, I think it dropped back to 3x pre covid.

How far will an EK configured 359 be able to fly with say 300 seats in a J, W, Y configuration? AKL-DXB is 17.5hrs, I don’t know that it would be viable, the make the A380 work with blocked seats, some of the US routes are around 16.5hrs which the 77W does with more seats sold than the 77L can carry. The 779 will be interesting but I think has similar range to the 77W.

Airlinerdude wrote:

ZK-NBT wrote:

Avgeek21 wrote:

For this reason, I do think adding additional destinations will be very challenging. I have noticed that FZ has occupied an increasing number of slots in the peak time departures I noted. Perhaps EK can absorb these in time to add some smaller cities with the 789/359.

It is very clear that the UAE/Dubai Leadership is committed to both carriers. flydubai is almost as big as it was pre-Covid with a major influx of MAX this year alone (13) and a huge number next year. flydubai has to fly peak time slots too. flydubai has added around 15 new destination over the past 12 months alone. If you add that too their pre-covid number you'll surpass 100 destinations in Q1 2022. And growing...

Both carriers have to grow but there are only so many slots and limits on bilateral agreements. That last ones doesn't really affect flydubai that much as they operate a different route structure. DXB is the bottle neck wrt to parking and slots.

Just send the FZ and all the other low cost carriers down to DWC, freeing up slots a plenty. After all, that was DWC’s original use at the beginning.

TUGMASTER wrote:

Just send the FZ and all the other low cost carriers down to DWC, freeing up slots a plenty. After all, that was DWC’s original use at the beginning.

flydubai and EK can not be split. Their connecting feed is way too important. Everything is build around that. A huge percentage of flydubai’s operation is T3 EK traffic.

DWC is a decade away, if that. The infrastructure isn’t ready and why would an airline go there voluntarily?

There are pax ops at DWC, have been for a long time. And if FZ are told to go to DWC , they’ll go. Thats how things work in the UAE.

Avgeek21 wrote:

TUGMASTER wrote:

Just send the FZ and all the other low cost carriers down to DWC, freeing up slots a plenty. After all, that was DWC’s original use at the beginning.

flydubai and EK can not be split. Their connecting feed is way too important. Everything is build around that. A huge percentage of flydubai’s operation is T3 EK traffic.

DWC is a decade away, if that. The infrastructure isn’t ready and why would an airline go there voluntarily?

I couldn't find recent data but in 2018 FlyDubai transferred to EK and vice versa 3.29 million passengers out of 11 million before moving into T3 to improve connections. That is 30% of passengers carried transferred to/from EK. (I couldn't find 2019 data.)
https://www.emirates.com/media-centre/e ... ew-heights

https://centreforaviation.com/analysis/ ... que-470124

I do not think FlyDubai is viable without EK connections. If you will, they are EK's "regional partner," just with very overlapping regions.

The issue, in my opinion, is the cost to build out DXB exceeds Dubai's ability to currently fund. The cost is $36 billion to build out: DWC currently has a capacity of 26.5 million, but only 0.9 million passengers (in 2019).

https://www.aviationbusinessme.com/airl ... ext-decade

So to truly move FlyDubai, EK must move over. While I expect as many popular P2P routes at DWC to be launched, if that 30% transfer to EK holds true, we have FlyDubai stuck at DXB (mostly). This will require one heck of an economic rebound to invest any more in DWC. Seriously, at 3.4% of pax capacity... With new competition at IST and ET also taking Africa traffic. Not to mention Indian airport expansion should provide competition. This is a challenge that will take a decade to figure out the solution.

Lightsaber

sfojvjets wrote:

chrisnh wrote:

Boston would possibly be an example where double-daily on smaller planes would work better with the JetBlue connections at the Logan end.

Similarly, pre-covid, I heard that EK was very annoyed at SFO because SFO wouldn't give them another departure slot to add on a daily 77W flight in addition to the daily A380 – they were apparently so angry that they ended up threatening SFO that they would give the second frequency to SJC. Shame none of that ever happened, but this is also an example of EK wishing to add on a smaller plane (77W as opposed to A380) to increase connectivity over their Dubai banks.

I don’t think SFO or any of the US airports are slot controlled. Perhaps they couldn’t get a gate at the time they wanted though?

ZK-NBT wrote:

sfojvjets wrote:

chrisnh wrote:

Boston would possibly be an example where double-daily on smaller planes would work better with the JetBlue connections at the Logan end.

Similarly, pre-covid, I heard that EK was very annoyed at SFO because SFO wouldn't give them another departure slot to add on a daily 77W flight in addition to the daily A380 – they were apparently so angry that they ended up threatening SFO that they would give the second frequency to SJC. Shame none of that ever happened, but this is also an example of EK wishing to add on a smaller plane (77W as opposed to A380) to increase connectivity over their Dubai banks.

I don’t think SFO or any of the US airports are slot controlled. Perhaps they couldn’t get a gate at the time they wanted though?

Yep sorry - I misspoke. They wanted a gate for a later departure time, but those gates were already all occupied by Asian carriers at the A Gates. I think that's part of the reason that SFO decided to make some gates widebody-capable in the new domestic Harvey Milk Terminal 1 and make an airside connector from the A Gates to the terminal so that they could accomodate more flights during the evening intl rush hour.

I see that EK has now scheduled the A380 to resume SFO service in December. That's a great step in the right direction and would mean that they're already back to pre-Covid seats in the market. I wonder how they will compete with all the new competition though, such as TK who now have 10x weekly flights (Dec & Jan + summer), plus QR who of course just started serving SFO less than a year ago. The ME3 has evolved greatly and it seems to be Turkish who's leading the charge with frequency over gauge.

sfojvjets wrote:

ZK-NBT wrote:

sfojvjets wrote:

Similarly, pre-covid, I heard that EK was very annoyed at SFO because SFO wouldn't give them another departure slot to add on a daily 77W flight in addition to the daily A380 – they were apparently so angry that they ended up threatening SFO that they would give the second frequency to SJC. Shame none of that ever happened, but this is also an example of EK wishing to add on a smaller plane (77W as opposed to A380) to increase connectivity over their Dubai banks.

I don’t think SFO or any of the US airports are slot controlled. Perhaps they couldn’t get a gate at the time they wanted though?

Yep sorry - I misspoke. They wanted a gate for a later departure time, but those gates were already all occupied by Asian carriers at the A Gates. I think that's part of the reason that SFO decided to make some gates widebody-capable in the new domestic Harvey Milk Terminal 1 and make an airside connector from the A Gates to the terminal so that they could accomodate more flights during the evening intl rush hour.

I see that EK has now scheduled the A380 to resume SFO service in December. That's a great step in the right direction and would mean that they're already back to pre-Covid seats in the market. I wonder how they will compete with all the new competition though, such as TK who now have 10x weekly flights (Dec & Jan + summer), plus QR who of course just started serving SFO less than a year ago. The ME3 has evolved greatly and it seems to be Turkish who's leading the charge with frequency over gauge.

will SFO allow them to lease/build their own gate, i believe they have a concept in LHR, their gate and the lounge are built by EK and direct access to the airplane from the lounge for premium and lower level for Y passengers

UAEflyer wrote:

sfojvjets wrote:

ZK-NBT wrote:

I don’t think SFO or any of the US airports are slot controlled. Perhaps they couldn’t get a gate at the time they wanted though?

Yep sorry - I misspoke. They wanted a gate for a later departure time, but those gates were already all occupied by Asian carriers at the A Gates. I think that's part of the reason that SFO decided to make some gates widebody-capable in the new domestic Harvey Milk Terminal 1 and make an airside connector from the A Gates to the terminal so that they could accomodate more flights during the evening intl rush hour.

I see that EK has now scheduled the A380 to resume SFO service in December. That's a great step in the right direction and would mean that they're already back to pre-Covid seats in the market. I wonder how they will compete with all the new competition though, such as TK who now have 10x weekly flights (Dec & Jan + summer), plus QR who of course just started serving SFO less than a year ago. The ME3 has evolved greatly and it seems to be Turkish who's leading the charge with frequency over gauge.

will SFO allow them to lease/build their own gate, i believe they have a concept in LHR, their gate and the lounge are built by EK and direct access to the airplane from the lounge for premium and lower level for Y passengers

That concept at LHR works really well for EK at gates 5 & 7. But also because of the way EK’s 380’s are laid out

UAEflyer wrote:

will SFO allow them to lease/build their own gate, i believe they have a concept in LHR, their gate and the lounge are built by EK and direct access to the airplane from the lounge for premium and lower level for Y passengers

Doubtful, unless they get one of those international gates in T1. The entire international terminal is common use.

Emirates orders 5 777-300ERSF

Expecting more of these in the months and years to come.

Cargo market is not going to be easy for any new freighter that goes for both the 350F AND 778F. Which by the way I think are both great freighters on paper

https://twitter.com/leehamnews/status/1 ... 73089?s=21

Opus99 wrote:

Cargo market is not going to be easy for any new freighter that goes for both the 350F AND 778F.

Which is probably why this is becoming a thing.

After all, MD11 did fine as a freighter against the advent of the 772F, as the DC/MD10 did against the advent of the 763F.

Heck, with so many 77Ws in stock, I'd say it might be the A350F and 778F that have more to worry about, in everything except heavy-lift.

An airline that has always looked out for a young fleet in the past is now buying used ones? The pocket must be pretty empty there !

oldJoe wrote:

An airline that has always looked out for a young fleet in the past is now buying used ones? The pocket must be pretty empty there !

For their passenger side yes, but for cargo it is a different story. EK has a huge fleet of 777s so it would make since for their cargo subsidiary to fly mostly 77Fs. However there are probably few to none available on the used market so they would have to order new. Now with the 773F being an option it would be stupid to choose anything different. Heck I wouldn't be surprised to see the aircraft come from EK

I concur the 777-300ERSF (and any other conversions) should be popular. The MD-11F is a great analogy. Many airframes will become available.

The discussion in 2019 was where the conversion stock would come from and would available stock be too expensive to consider for conversion. Now, not an issue.

It just makes sense for EK to cheaply expand cargo ops. I expect them to order many more conversions.

Lightsaber

Pinto wrote:

oldJoe wrote:

An airline that has always looked out for a young fleet in the past is now buying used ones? The pocket must be pretty empty there !

For their passenger side yes, but for cargo it is a different story. EK has a huge fleet of 777s so it would make since for their cargo subsidiary to fly mostly 77Fs. However there are probably few to none available on the used market so they would have to order new. Now with the 773F being an option it would be stupid to choose anything different. Heck I wouldn't be surprised to see the aircraft come from EK

one note, emirates recently sold a 777f to Luftansa cargo. its reg is D-ALFJ

Cardude2 wrote:

Pinto wrote:

oldJoe wrote:

An airline that has always looked out for a young fleet in the past is now buying used ones? The pocket must be pretty empty there !

For their passenger side yes, but for cargo it is a different story. EK has a huge fleet of 777s so it would make since for their cargo subsidiary to fly mostly 77Fs. However there are probably few to none available on the used market so they would have to order new. Now with the 773F being an option it would be stupid to choose anything different. Heck I wouldn't be surprised to see the aircraft come from EK

one note, emirates recently sold a 777f to Luftansa cargo. its reg is D-ALFJ

which I think many were flabbergasted by.

Cardude2 wrote:

Pinto wrote:

oldJoe wrote:

An airline that has always looked out for a young fleet in the past is now buying used ones? The pocket must be pretty empty there !

For their passenger side yes, but for cargo it is a different story. EK has a huge fleet of 777s so it would make since for their cargo subsidiary to fly mostly 77Fs. However there are probably few to none available on the used market so they would have to order new. Now with the 773F being an option it would be stupid to choose anything different. Heck I wouldn't be surprised to see the aircraft come from EK

one note, emirates recently sold a 777f to Luftansa cargo. its reg is D-ALFJ

It appears that A6-EFF (now D-ALFJ) was a lease return to DAE Capital, who then re-leased the B77F to Lufthansa Cargo.

https://www.planespotters.net/airframe/ ... rgo/ep6d56

DAE Capital, one of the largest commercial aircraft lessors in the world, is based in Dubai, but does not appear to be directly affiliated with EK.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dubai_Aer ... Enterprise

As for the B773ERSF's, I could see EK using these to start to beef-up their cargo operations, maybe eventually becoming a competitor to DHL, FedEx and UPS. They have a great, under-utilized airport in DWC that could support round-the-clock cargo flights, with plenty of space for ramp parking and sorting/distribution operations.

With 838 777-300ERs sold, 827 have been delivered. [11 unfilled orders (one for CZ, two for SU and three for TG, another five for PIA which most probably would get cancelled)], around 16 -20 scrapped, there are plenty of feedstock in the used market from EK itself (146 at its peak). EY, VA, GA, NZ has shed or planning to shed their fleet too. This will pretty much dent the viable studies of A350F, glad to be proven wrong though.

RoyalBrunei757 wrote:

With 838 777-300ERs sold, 827 have been delivered. [11 unfilled orders (one for CZ, two for SU and three for TG, another five for PIA which most probably would get cancelled)], around 16 -20 scrapped, there are plenty of feedstock in the used market from EK itself (146 at its peak). EY, VA, GA, NZ has shed or planning to shed their fleet too. This will pretty much dent the viable studies of A350F, glad to be proven wrong though.

16-20 scrapped? There's only 1 ever scrapped iirc. Maybe you mean 16-20 retired by airlines or you mean 20 planes of 777 family have been scrapped

77WFs should be a hit especially among 77LF users since these 2 share a lot of commonality, even more than what 773 and 77W do.

Niloko wrote:

RoyalBrunei757 wrote:

With 838 777-300ERs sold, 827 have been delivered. [11 unfilled orders (one for CZ, two for SU and three for TG, another five for PIA which most probably would get cancelled)], around 16 -20 scrapped, there are plenty of feedstock in the used market from EK itself (146 at its peak). EY, VA, GA, NZ has shed or planning to shed their fleet too. This will pretty much dent the viable studies of A350F, glad to be proven wrong though.

16-20 scrapped? There's only 1 ever scrapped iirc. Maybe you mean 16-20 retired by airlines or you mean 20 planes of 777 family have been scrapped

I mean the latter, most of Jet Airways's 9 B77W are heading for scrappers, three are done for, more due soon due to years of improper storage. ANA have retired 13 collectively last year and this year, all of them are earmarked for scrapping or have been scrapped.


JA756A & JA757A B.777-300ER, ANA, Mojave 02-28-21 by DUNCAN KIRK, on Flickr

RoyalBrunei757 wrote:

Niloko wrote:

RoyalBrunei757 wrote:

With 838 777-300ERs sold, 827 have been delivered. [11 unfilled orders (one for CZ, two for SU and three for TG, another five for PIA which most probably would get cancelled)], around 16 -20 scrapped, there are plenty of feedstock in the used market from EK itself (146 at its peak). EY, VA, GA, NZ has shed or planning to shed their fleet too. This will pretty much dent the viable studies of A350F, glad to be proven wrong though.

16-20 scrapped? There's only 1 ever scrapped iirc. Maybe you mean 16-20 retired by airlines or you mean 20 planes of 777 family have been scrapped

I mean the latter, most of Jet Airways's 9 B77W are heading for scrappers, three are done for, more due soon due to years of improper storage. ANA have retired 13 collectively last year and this year, all of them are earmarked for scrapping or have been scrapped.


JA756A & JA757A B.777-300ER, ANA, Mojave 02-28-21 by DUNCAN KIRK, on Flickr

Is it just me or those look like the 300s not Ws

Something to ponder about, this sort of deal would not have been possible in this direct manner just a few years ago. Directly dealing with an IAI program would had been taboo back then.

DCA350 wrote:

RoyalBrunei757 wrote:

Niloko wrote:

16-20 scrapped? There's only 1 ever scrapped iirc. Maybe you mean 16-20 retired by airlines or you mean 20 planes of 777 family have been scrapped

I mean the latter, most of Jet Airways's 9 B77W are heading for scrappers, three are done for, more due soon due to years of improper storage. ANA have retired 13 collectively last year and this year, all of them are earmarked for scrapping or have been scrapped.


JA756A & JA757A B.777-300ER, ANA, Mojave 02-28-21 by DUNCAN KIRK, on Flickr

Is it just me or those look like the 300s not Ws

You are correct those are 773s with PW engines and no raked wingtips

This seems to make total sense for EK.

oldJoe wrote:

An airline that has always looked out for a young fleet in the past is now buying used ones? The pocket must be pretty empty there !

Depreciation, leases, maintenance etc is what drives that. They rode their 772s/A332s etc very hard for the most part.

RoyalBrunei757 wrote:

Niloko wrote:

RoyalBrunei757 wrote:

With 838 777-300ERs sold, 827 have been delivered. [11 unfilled orders (one for CZ, two for SU and three for TG, another five for PIA which most probably would get cancelled)], around 16 -20 scrapped, there are plenty of feedstock in the used market from EK itself (146 at its peak). EY, VA, GA, NZ has shed or planning to shed their fleet too. This will pretty much dent the viable studies of A350F, glad to be proven wrong though.

16-20 scrapped? There's only 1 ever scrapped iirc. Maybe you mean 16-20 retired by airlines or you mean 20 planes of 777 family have been scrapped

I mean the latter, most of Jet Airways's 9 B77W are heading for scrappers, three are done for, more due soon due to years of improper storage. ANA have retired 13 collectively last year and this year, all of them are earmarked for scrapping or have been scrapped.


JA756A & JA757A B.777-300ER, ANA, Mojave 02-28-21 by DUNCAN KIRK, on Flickr

Mistakening 77W and 773?

Also, I just checked and as of August 2021, only 3 777-300ER have ever been scrapped.

Pinto wrote:

oldJoe wrote:

An airline that has always looked out for a young fleet in the past is now buying used ones? The pocket must be pretty empty there !

For their passenger side yes, but for cargo it is a different story. EK has a huge fleet of 777s so it would make since for their cargo subsidiary to fly mostly 77Fs. However there are probably few to none available on the used market so they would have to order new. Now with the 773F being an option it would be stupid to choose anything different. Heck I wouldn't be surprised to see the aircraft come from EK

I think the aircraft will be from EK’s fleet. The old 777s, -EB series.

xwb777 wrote:

Pinto wrote:

oldJoe wrote:

An airline that has always looked out for a young fleet in the past is now buying used ones? The pocket must be pretty empty there !

For their passenger side yes, but for cargo it is a different story. EK has a huge fleet of 777s so it would make since for their cargo subsidiary to fly mostly 77Fs. However there are probably few to none available on the used market so they would have to order new. Now with the 773F being an option it would be stupid to choose anything different. Heck I wouldn't be surprised to see the aircraft come from EK

I think the aircraft will be from EK’s fleet. The old 777s, -EB series.

Genuine question: does EK own 77W's? I thought almost all of their fleet is leased.

Scott Hamiltion tweets the order is placed with the IAI Bedek-@etihad JV. So the aircraft may actually come from EY (which I thought owns at least some of their 77W, but please correct me if I'm wrong).

Niloko wrote:

RoyalBrunei757 wrote:

Niloko wrote:

16-20 scrapped? There's only 1 ever scrapped iirc. Maybe you mean 16-20 retired by airlines or you mean 20 planes of 777 family have been scrapped

I mean the latter, most of Jet Airways's 9 B77W are heading for scrappers, three are done for, more due soon due to years of improper storage. ANA have retired 13 collectively last year and this year, all of them are earmarked for scrapping or have been scrapped.


JA756A & JA757A B.777-300ER, ANA, Mojave 02-28-21 by DUNCAN KIRK, on Flickr

Mistakening 77W and 773?

Also, I just checked and as of August 2021, only 3 777-300ER have ever been scrapped.

Sorry for wrong photo, but there are indeed 13 ANA B77W in MHV now being scrapped/mothballed or whatever you call it, but not updated in airliners.net. Some may escape choppers, but chance maybe low. I don't think ANA has sold any of their owned B77W to any one. Glad to be proven wrong.

You can see one here JA733A https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10 ... 7690999041

Others at MHV includes:
1. JA731A 28281 / 488
2. JA732A 27038 / 511
3. JA733A 32648 / 529 (above photo)
4. JA734A 32649 / 557
5. JA735A 34892 / 571
6. JA736A 34893 / 589
7. JA777A 32650 / 593
8. JA778A 32651 / 606
9. JA779A 34894 / 631
10. JA780A 34895 / 639
11. JA781A 27041 / 667
12. JA782A 33416 / 691
13. JA783A 27940 / 737

This photo shows four ANA B77W on death row: https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=102 ... 0712822738

frigatebird wrote:

xwb777 wrote:

Pinto wrote:

For their passenger side yes, but for cargo it is a different story. EK has a huge fleet of 777s so it would make since for their cargo subsidiary to fly mostly 77Fs. However there are probably few to none available on the used market so they would have to order new. Now with the 773F being an option it would be stupid to choose anything different. Heck I wouldn't be surprised to see the aircraft come from EK

I think the aircraft will be from EK’s fleet. The old 777s, -EB series.

Genuine question: does EK own 77W's? I thought almost all of their fleet is leased.

Scott Hamiltion tweets the order is placed with the IAI Bedek-@etihad JV. So the aircraft may actually come from EY (which I thought owns at least some of their 77W, but please correct me if I'm wrong).

As per Emirates financial report 2020-2021, Emirates owns 72 B777.
https://cdn.ek.aero/downloads/ek/pdfs/r ... t_2021.pdf (Page 77)

Oh wow, EK does have quite some potential aircraft for conversion then. Thanks.

Perhaps better than to scrap them.
There are many surplus 77Ws, the ANA planes and Jet Airways scrapped and rotten ones only the tip of an iceberg, and many more will be returned to lessors continually. By years end Etihad is retiring all their 77Ws, 19 frames, with Garuda´s 10 frames close on its heel. Many, many more than the cargo market could swallow.

EK has moved away from its "lowest number of types and accept some abuse" model on the pax side with its 789 and 359 orders.

These 300ERFs suggest a similar view for freighters, supplementing the existing fleet with less capable frames where they are sufficient for purpose. This does not shut the door on either 778F or 359F as 777F replacements at a later date

Pinto wrote:

Heck I wouldn't be surprised to see the aircraft come from EK

Yep, they're converting their own aircraft.

I'm happy they did a special livery but this is a bit of a letdown... my kid could have draw this and I am used to better work from EK.

And speaking of special liveries, I caught the new 'Year of 50' scheme at GLA yesterday, looking great in formidable weather. I do enjoy EK's attempts to come up with different looks and themes for it's aircraft.

PSX_20210926_224011 by Jann Eejit, on Flickr