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pmanni1
Posts: 384
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Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:22 pm

CIDFlyer wrote:
Before all of these recent ads I would say id probably never see WN at CID but with recent ads lately it gives me hope. MDW is at least 3.5 - 4 hrs away and DSM i think it could be possible. I’m not sure what the future holds for WN but with all of their recent ads it’s looking more like they are becoming somewhat of a legacy carrier. G4 surged here to #2 in market share with year round service to BNA, IWA, LAS, PIE, PGD and SFB and seasonal LAX so it’s not a small station for them and F9 does pretty well to DEN which is our number 2 destination market. A small station with 3-4 flights a day could be possible.


DSM metro is about 3X larger than CID and they're down to 2 WN flights a day. I think they had 3-4 a day pre-pandemic. I just don't know how CID would have enough traffic to support WN.
 
planecane
Posts: 1715
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:58 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:25 pm

When the MAX returns to WN, are all 55 returning immediately or will they phase them in?
 
SEA
Posts: 308
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:21 pm

Re: Southwest in COS

Wed Mar 10, 2021 1:17 pm

INFINITI329 wrote:
AMALH747430 wrote:
If COS works out and WN remains, do we think WN will keep COS-DEN or will it be axed when demand for air travel rebounds and the equipment/crew are better utilized on other routes?


Out of all of WN's covid adds, COS is one of the few cities I believe will stick around post covid. I expect further adds later in the year. I don't believe COS-DEN is sustainable, however. WN doesn't have the right equipment to make this route sustainable long term, unlike UA who does.


UA is flying COS-DEN with mainline hardware for the last couple months now. I'm sure WN can keep it up with all the connection options in DEN.
 
alpine1989
Posts: 72
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:13 am

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Wed Mar 10, 2021 1:19 pm

planecane wrote:
When the MAX returns to WN, are all 55 returning immediately or will they phase them in?


Phased in for the first month or so starting March 11, 2021. They will be on specific city pairs using 6000 series flight numbers. After that it will be back to normal.

39 frames on the property. 19 making their way out of storage. More in the delivery pipeline.

http://www.rzjets.net/operators/?show=1222

Alpine
 
Chuska
Posts: 519
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Re: Southwest Announces BLI, EUG, MYR

Wed Mar 10, 2021 1:47 pm

FATFlyer wrote:
SurfandSnow wrote:
EUG is interesting, didn't WN decline to serve the airport after acquiring Morris Air? IIRC, COS and FAT were other Morris Air stations that WN decided not to serve - until the pandemic drastically altered travel patterns, of course. Nice to see some of these smaller airports in the West finally getting the WN service that they probably have wanted for decades now.


The former Morris Air cities that were discontinued in the merger were Eugene, Fresno, Palm Springs, Laughlin, Colorado Springs, Denver, and Anchorage.

WN has now added all of those back except ANC and IFP.

Anchorage remains a possible future add. But at this point I doubt it will happen in 2021 since summer tourism season is already approaching.

Laughlin in the future? I think that might be a few decades or more away.


How about all the AirTran cities that were dropped: MLI, BMI, CAK, PHF, GPT, SWF, HPN, BKG, and most intersting, Tunica MS. VPS,MYR, SAV, and SRQ were former AirTran now making a comeback. WN tried real hard to make FNT work. And AirTran served TOL way back as well. TOL is a real ghost town to what it used to be. I'll bet WN could make them work again.
 
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LeftyWriter
Posts: 7
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Re: Southwest in COS

Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:12 pm

subramak1 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
wnflyguy wrote:
COS could easily be a 40 to 50 daily flights City.
Because as WN grows DEN more it will get that unfortunate stigma for the southern Co travels who don't want to be bothered by the Drive and Crowded DEN experience. COS will definitely drawl and cater to the Anti DEN crowds.

Flyguy


'I don't like DEN. Let me drive 65 miles out of the way to an airport with less fare competition and fewer frequencies,' said no intelligent person ever.

MHT is 55 miles from BOS and gets a dozen flights. PVD gets 14. TUS gets eight. IAD competes with DCA and BWI - in a vastly larger catchment area - and gets eight.


For points south of Castle Rock, COS would be a better alternative. Heck if you are south and west of I25/E470 junction; you could get to COS faster

Subramanian


As one of the "self-loading cargo" people here, I'm really happy to see WN fly into COS. I have family in Canon City, and the drive to/from DEN, especially in the winter, takes a lot of time out of our visit.
 
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Spacepope
Posts: 5414
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 1999 11:10 am

Re: Southwest in COS

Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:14 pm

SEA wrote:
INFINITI329 wrote:
AMALH747430 wrote:
If COS works out and WN remains, do we think WN will keep COS-DEN or will it be axed when demand for air travel rebounds and the equipment/crew are better utilized on other routes?


Out of all of WN's covid adds, COS is one of the few cities I believe will stick around post covid. I expect further adds later in the year. I don't believe COS-DEN is sustainable, however. WN doesn't have the right equipment to make this route sustainable long term, unlike UA who does.


UA is flying COS-DEN with mainline hardware for the last couple months now. I'm sure WN can keep it up with all the connection options in DEN.


They were running a 739 on the DEN-COS route daily even before the Rona. A big change is a ORD flight mainline now, I’ve only ever flown that on the CRJ7, and lately it’s been running as a CRJ2.
 
Wneast
Posts: 969
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:37 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Wed Mar 10, 2021 5:06 pm

Will the max be put on Hawaii flights soon, will we know soon of more Hawaii dummer flying ?
 
SEA
Posts: 308
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:21 pm

Re: Southwest in COS

Wed Mar 10, 2021 6:07 pm

Spacepope wrote:
SEA wrote:
INFINITI329 wrote:

Out of all of WN's covid adds, COS is one of the few cities I believe will stick around post covid. I expect further adds later in the year. I don't believe COS-DEN is sustainable, however. WN doesn't have the right equipment to make this route sustainable long term, unlike UA who does.


UA is flying COS-DEN with mainline hardware for the last couple months now. I'm sure WN can keep it up with all the connection options in DEN.


They were running a 739 on the DEN-COS route daily even before the Rona. A big change is a ORD flight mainline now, I’ve only ever flown that on the CRJ7, and lately it’s been running as a CRJ2.


COS-ORD is an A319 at the moment.
 
ChrisPBacon
Posts: 45
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2021 6:14 pm

Re: Southwest in COS

Wed Mar 10, 2021 6:08 pm

INFINITI329 wrote:
Out of all of WN's covid adds, COS is one of the few cities I believe will stick around post covid. I expect further adds later in the year. I don't believe COS-DEN is sustainable, however. WN doesn't have the right equipment to make this route sustainable long term, unlike UA who does.


COS-DEN will never be profitable on it's own. But if it mean WN sees that COS-DEN-XXX traffic generates better yield than the DEN-XXX nonstop does, it'll stay. It's about the connections. The service allows WN to offer a lot of options from COS that wouldn't work as direct routes from there.
 
FATFlyer
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Joined: Fri May 18, 2001 4:12 am

Re: Southwest Announces BLI, EUG, MYR

Wed Mar 10, 2021 6:12 pm

Chuska wrote:
FATFlyer wrote:
SurfandSnow wrote:
EUG is interesting, didn't WN decline to serve the airport after acquiring Morris Air? IIRC, COS and FAT were other Morris Air stations that WN decided not to serve - until the pandemic drastically altered travel patterns, of course. Nice to see some of these smaller airports in the West finally getting the WN service that they probably have wanted for decades now.


The former Morris Air cities that were discontinued in the merger were Eugene, Fresno, Palm Springs, Laughlin, Colorado Springs, Denver, and Anchorage.

WN has now added all of those back except ANC and IFP.

Anchorage remains a possible future add. But at this point I doubt it will happen in 2021 since summer tourism season is already approaching.

Laughlin in the future? I think that might be a few decades or more away.


How about all the AirTran cities that were dropped: MLI, BMI, CAK, PHF, GPT, SWF, HPN, BKG, and most intersting, Tunica MS. VPS,MYR, SAV, and SRQ were former AirTran now making a comeback. WN tried real hard to make FNT work. And AirTran served TOL way back as well. TOL is a real ghost town to what it used to be. I'll bet WN could make them work again.


I was replying to the comment about EUG and Morris Air, no snub about the AirTran cities.

Hopefully some of those start getting added back in the future.

Of course with the exception of DEN, it only took 26+ years after they were dropped for the former Morris Air cities to be added to the WN network. Hopefully, ex-AirTran cities do not have to wait that long.
 
BMcD
Posts: 114
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2014 4:11 pm

Re: Southwest in COS

Wed Mar 10, 2021 6:17 pm

INFINITI329 wrote:
AMALH747430 wrote:
If COS works out and WN remains, do we think WN will keep COS-DEN or will it be axed when demand for air travel rebounds and the equipment/crew are better utilized on other routes?


Out of all of WN's covid adds, COS is one of the few cities I believe will stick around post covid. I expect further adds later in the year. I don't believe COS-DEN is sustainable, however. WN doesn't have the right equipment to make this route sustainable long term, unlike UA who does.


UA is running CRJ2, E75's, A318 and 738's right now on the 4 flights that are out of here today. Mix of size and seats. I do remember the 10's running out of here as well as the classics. They were trying to crush WestPac. I don't think they can/will do that this time around.

Right now WN has 9(!) flights scheduled out of here tomorrow. A HUGE amount of seats opening up. I think WN will be successful, there is excitement around it (outside the potential 3-5 feet of snow). I don't think there has been this level of excitement for a new carrier out of here.
 
Wneast
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Re: Southwest in COS

Wed Mar 10, 2021 6:21 pm

Will more flights not be announced tell the winter period or before then ?
 
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AVLAirlineFreq
Posts: 1542
Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 1:31 am

Re: Southwest Announces BLI, EUG, MYR

Wed Mar 10, 2021 6:59 pm

Chuska wrote:
How about all the AirTran cities that were dropped: MLI, BMI, CAK, PHF, GPT, SWF, HPN, BKG, and most intersting, Tunica MS. VPS,MYR, SAV, and SRQ were former AirTran now making a comeback. WN tried real hard to make FNT work. And AirTran served TOL way back as well. TOL is a real ghost town to what it used to be. I'll bet WN could make them work again.


There are several more not on that list that were dropped by WN after the AirTran acquisition: TYS, AVL, MDT, ABE, HSV, LEX, DAY, eventually EYW and FNT. And CAK stuck around for a while before WN dropped it later on.
 
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barney captain
Posts: 2444
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 5:47 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Wed Mar 10, 2021 7:53 pm

Wneast wrote:
Will the max be put on Hawaii flights soon, will we know soon of more Hawaii dummer flying ?


The rumor mill is pointing to an August timeframe for Max service to Hawai'i.
 
Chemist
Posts: 935
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 4:46 am

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Wed Mar 10, 2021 7:54 pm

maps4ltd wrote:
Citrus1492 wrote:
CIDFlyer wrote:
Before all of these recent ads I would say id probably never see WN at CID but with recent ads lately it gives me hope. MDW is at least 3.5 - 4 hrs away and DSM i think it could be possible. I’m not sure what the future holds for WN but with all of their recent ads it’s looking more like they are becoming somewhat of a legacy carrier. G4 surged here to #2 in market share with year round service to BNA, IWA, LAS, PIE, PGD and SFB and seasonal LAX so it’s not a small station for them and F9 does pretty well to DEN which is our number 2 destination market. A small station with 3-4 flights a day could be possible.

WN has had legacy fares for at least the past 15 years, it's nice they are now adding the legacy connectivity.

Bingo.


Legacy legroom and legacy free bags, too.
 
Wneast
Posts: 969
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:37 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Wed Mar 10, 2021 7:58 pm

barney captain wrote:
Wneast wrote:
Will the max be put on Hawaii flights soon, will we know soon of more Hawaii dummer flying ?


The rumor mill is pointing to an August timeframe for Max service to Hawai'i.

So new routes should be announced in April or may
 
SWADawg
Posts: 716
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:43 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Wed Mar 10, 2021 9:02 pm

Wneast wrote:
barney captain wrote:
Wneast wrote:
Will the max be put on Hawaii flights soon, will we know soon of more Hawaii dummer flying ?


The rumor mill is pointing to an August timeframe for Max service to Hawai'i.

So new routes should be announced in April or may

Not necessarily. They may just be put on existing -800 ETOPS routes. You might see PHX and LAS eventually, but hard to say whether it will be this year or next year.
 
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OzarkD9S
Posts: 5992
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2001 2:31 am

Re: Southwest in COS

Wed Mar 10, 2021 9:20 pm

Wneast wrote:

Will more flights not be announced tell the winter period or before then ?


These types of questions cannot be answered by anyone. Wait for official announcements, which is when everyone on here finds out.
 
DenverTed
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Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:12 pm

Re: Southwest in COS

Wed Mar 10, 2021 9:51 pm

What's the trip cost for a WN 737 COS-DEN?
 
SurfandSnow
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Re: Southwest Announces BLI, EUG, MYR

Wed Mar 10, 2021 11:01 pm

Chuska wrote:
How about all the AirTran cities that were dropped: MLI, BMI, CAK, PHF, GPT, SWF, HPN, BKG, and most intersting, Tunica MS. VPS,MYR, SAV, and SRQ were former AirTran now making a comeback. WN tried real hard to make FNT work. And AirTran served TOL way back as well. TOL is a real ghost town to what it used to be. I'll bet WN could make them work again.


With the possible exceptions of BKG and HPN, I highly doubt WN could make any of the cities you list work. BKG probably could work as a summer seasonal station, especially now that DAL and DEN more or less function as comprehensive national hubs. The Wright Amendment severely limited WN's onward connectivity at DAL back then, and DEN has grown substantially in the past few years. Also, for better or worse, the incredibly good (and popular) show Ozark may have finally taught Americans where Branson is and what the area has to offer visitors. That said, I'm not sure Branson is a big draw in the wintertime. Now that WN is ok operating seasonal stations, maybe BKG is worth another try?

HPN is even more challenging, given the wealthy NIMBY constraints on operations at the airport and its terminal. IIRC, HPN can only handle so many passengers per half hour, and I suspect the airport's leading carrier B6 could/would gobble up any available capacity to legally thwart WN's ability to serve the airport. Even if WN was able to gain approval *and* did want to give HPN a try, given the carrier's relatively weak position in the Northeast, what would they do? ATL? BWI? MCO? MDW? All of those places would directly or indirectly pit WN against a strong incumbent carrier at HPN...

BMI, CAK, FNT, GPT, MLI, PHF and SWF are all very weak stations for most carriers. Nothing much really seems to work from any of those airports in the long run; G4 might be their best bet. I can't see WN bothering with any of those airports, especially since many people in those markets already drive to and from nearby major airports like CLE, DTW, LGA, MDW, MSY and ORF should they wish to fly Southwest Airlines.

TOL is a real ghost town for good reason - it's so easy to drive to DTW. If CAK, DAY and FNT didn't work for WN, rest assured that TOL has absolutely no chance. IIRC FL briefly flew there in its early years, but quickly abandoned the unpopular airport for better opportunities like CAK and DTW.

Tunica is...interesting? That city's biggest claim to fame might well have been Oceans 11 where a casino owner said something like "but Tunica is where casino games go to die!". Obviously Tunica has gambling, but I imagine it overwhelmingly caters to gamblers that drive in from nearby areas rather than people flying in. If you're going to fly to gamble, you'll probably head someplace with a lot more on offer than Mississippi - LAS, NAS or SJU spring to mind. I honestly didn't even think WN would return to JAN, but that station probably best serves the Mississippi residents (and visitors) that other nearby WN stations such as BHM, MEM and MSY do not.

AVLAirlineFreq wrote:
There are several more not on that list that were dropped by WN after the AirTran acquisition: TYS, AVL, MDT, ABE, HSV, LEX, DAY, eventually EYW and FNT. And CAK stuck around for a while before WN dropped it later on.


Don't forget about ACY! FL was operating a subsidized ATL-ACY service at the time of acquisition, though like Tunica it was already ending before WN took the helm. I could see AVL and TYS being strong contenders for WN service given their tourist appeal. EYW was operationally challenging, but the runway is a bit longer there nowadays and perhaps WN could just fly there seasonally (if only to avoid the worst hurricane season weather).

I might have quickly dismissed the notion of WN trying places like ABE, HSV, LEX and MDT - but these are very high fare airports, not unlike recently announced EUG. Perhaps anything is possible for WN nowadays, though I still think places with substantial tourist appeal (i.e. ACK, ANC, BTV, DRO, EGE, FAI, GUC, JAC, JNU, MRY, MVY, STS, STT, etc.) might be the most likely to get Southwest Airlines in the near future. The likes of MDT could appeal to a broad geographic area, a "hole" in the WN route map if you will, but so too might places like BIL, FAR, FSD, GSO and SYR. I imagine all kinds of smaller airports are having discussions with WN these days!
 
maps4ltd
Posts: 963
Joined: Tue May 08, 2018 4:48 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:14 am

Chemist wrote:
maps4ltd wrote:
Citrus1492 wrote:
WN has had legacy fares for at least the past 15 years, it's nice they are now adding the legacy connectivity.

Bingo.


Legacy legroom and legacy free bags, too.

In all serious, the large majority of WN planes do, in fact, have legacy legroom.
 
DeltaRules
Posts: 5392
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2001 11:57 am

Re: Southwest Announces BLI, EUG, MYR

Thu Mar 11, 2021 1:01 am

SurfandSnow wrote:
Chuska wrote:
How about all the AirTran cities that were dropped: MLI, BMI, CAK, PHF, GPT, SWF, HPN, BKG, and most intersting, Tunica MS. VPS,MYR, SAV, and SRQ were former AirTran now making a comeback. WN tried real hard to make FNT work. And AirTran served TOL way back as well. TOL is a real ghost town to what it used to be. I'll bet WN could make them work again.

If CAK, DAY and FNT didn't work for WN, rest assured that TOL has absolutely no chance.


I get the feeling DAY could've worked for WN if they wanted it to. They dumped the year-round Florida flying almost immediately and briefly barely ran DEN and MDW before pulling up stakes and moving to CVG. I'm not sure what the difference between FL's approach and WN's would've been, but FL had a decent operation there and WN seemed like they were phoning it in to send ops down I-75.

WN announced they were leaving DAY and, a couple hours later, G4 announced they were starting SFB and PIE. Not long after, WN decided to run MCO and TPA for one more season.
 
wnflyguy
Posts: 2506
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:58 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Thu Mar 11, 2021 1:31 am

Afternoon rumors for tomorrow morning.
At LGB it's rumored Seasonal LGB-KOA June-August and Saturday only nonstop to BWI.

COS announcing LAX,OAK,BWI and HOU.

Flyguy
 
SurfandSnow
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Re: Southwest Announces BLI, EUG, MYR

Thu Mar 11, 2021 1:34 am

DeltaRules wrote:
I get the feeling DAY could've worked for WN if they wanted it to. They dumped the year-round Florida flying almost immediately and briefly barely ran DEN and MDW before pulling up stakes and moving to CVG. I'm not sure what the difference between FL's approach and WN's would've been, but FL had a decent operation there and WN seemed like they were phoning it in to send ops down I-75.

WN announced they were leaving DAY and, a couple hours later, G4 announced they were starting SFB and PIE. Not long after, WN decided to run MCO and TPA for one more season.


I get the feeling DAY was simply a way for FL and later WN to offer low fare service near the Cincinnati market without having to contend with what was then perceived to be a seemingly impenetrable DL fortress hub at CVG. I highly doubt FL ever wanted to directly challenge DL on the ATL-CVG route, a link between the arch rival's primary and (before the NW merger) second largest hubs.

FL did a pretty good job marketing certain airports as alternates: MKE, for example, was touted as a gateway to Chicago's northern suburbs, a wealthy area where many folks would never even consider using MDW. FL didn't serve CLE, again perhaps due to that pesky problem of a competitor's fortress hub keeping out LCCs, but had quite the operation at nearby CAK, including LGA services that were worthy of scarce, highly coveted LGA slots. Unfortunately for CAK and DAY, the demise of UA's CLE hub and DL's CVG hub opened up the preferred primary airports to low fare competition in a meaningful way. Tumbling fares at CLE and CVG negated the need for so many Clevelanders to drive to CAK and Cincinnatians to head to DAY thereafter...

G4, like you said, seems to have been a saving grace for DAY. Perhaps another ULCC carrier like F9 or NK would be interested in serving the airport, primarily from the popular Florida markets once served by WN?
 
Cboyle
Posts: 163
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2021 6:32 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Thu Mar 11, 2021 1:42 am

wnflyguy wrote:
Afternoon rumors for tomorrow morning.
At LGB it's rumored Seasonal LGB-KOA June-August and Saturday only nonstop to BWI.

COS announcing LAX,OAK,BWI and HOU.

Flyguy

Anything out of New England airports?
 
wnflyguy
Posts: 2506
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:58 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Thu Mar 11, 2021 2:19 am

Cboyle wrote:
wnflyguy wrote:
Afternoon rumors for tomorrow morning.
At LGB it's rumored Seasonal LGB-KOA June-August and Saturday only nonstop to BWI.

COS announcing LAX,OAK,BWI and HOU.

Flyguy

Anything out of New England airports?

Nothing At this time.
I give Temporary Seasonal LGB-KOA a 70% chance of actually happening.
LGB-BWI Saturday only would only work if they had a idle aircraft in LGB on Saturdays. Because WN doesn't do Red Eyes the aircraft would need to come from BWI-LGB-BWI and giving the reduced flying on Saturdays in BWI wouldn't connect to anything in BWI.


COS has already been talked about By WN about future service in the near future so announcing some more flights will get a lot of free press coverage on Their first day of operations from COS.

Flyguy
 
Wneast
Posts: 969
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:37 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Thu Mar 11, 2021 2:22 am

wnflyguy wrote:
Cboyle wrote:
wnflyguy wrote:
Afternoon rumors for tomorrow morning.
At LGB it's rumored Seasonal LGB-KOA June-August and Saturday only nonstop to BWI.

COS announcing LAX,OAK,BWI and HOU.

Flyguy

Anything out of New England airports?

Nothing At this time.
I give Temporary Seasonal LGB-KOA a 70% chance of actually happening.
LGB-BWI Saturday only would only work if they had a idle aircraft in LGB on Saturdays. Because WN doesn't do Red Eyes the aircraft would need to come from BWI-LGB-BWI and giving the reduced flying on Saturdays in BWI wouldn't connect to anything in BWI.


COS has already been talked about By WN about future service in the near future so announcing some more flights will get a lot of free press coverage on Their first day of operations from COS.

Flyguy

Could we see some other surprises or just these adds plus would they use a temporary slot form delta for the LGB KOA to see if it works?
 
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Citrus1492
Posts: 77
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Re: Southwest Announces BLI, EUG, MYR

Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:38 am

SurfandSnow wrote:
DeltaRules wrote:
I get the feeling DAY could've worked for WN if they wanted it to. They dumped the year-round Florida flying almost immediately and briefly barely ran DEN and MDW before pulling up stakes and moving to CVG. I'm not sure what the difference between FL's approach and WN's would've been, but FL had a decent operation there and WN seemed like they were phoning it in to send ops down I-75.

WN announced they were leaving DAY and, a couple hours later, G4 announced they were starting SFB and PIE. Not long after, WN decided to run MCO and TPA for one more season.


I get the feeling DAY was simply a way for FL and later WN to offer low fare service near the Cincinnati market without having to contend with what was then perceived to be a seemingly impenetrable DL fortress hub at CVG. I highly doubt FL ever wanted to directly challenge DL on the ATL-CVG route, a link between the arch rival's primary and (before the NW merger) second largest hubs.

FL did a pretty good job marketing certain airports as alternates: MKE, for example, was touted as a gateway to Chicago's northern suburbs, a wealthy area where many folks would never even consider using MDW. FL didn't serve CLE, again perhaps due to that pesky problem of a competitor's fortress hub keeping out LCCs, but had quite the operation at nearby CAK, including LGA services that were worthy of scarce, highly coveted LGA slots. Unfortunately for CAK and DAY, the demise of UA's CLE hub and DL's CVG hub opened up the preferred primary airports to low fare competition in a meaningful way. Tumbling fares at CLE and CVG negated the need for so many Clevelanders to drive to CAK and Cincinnatians to head to DAY thereafter...

G4, like you said, seems to have been a saving grace for DAY. Perhaps another ULCC carrier like F9 or NK would be interested in serving the airport, primarily from the popular Florida markets once served by WN?

I predict CAK will become northeast Ohio ULCC central if Cleveland decides it needs a new terminal(it doesnt). CPE is already criminally high at CLE.
 
Chuska
Posts: 519
Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 4:59 pm

Re: Southwest in COS

Thu Mar 11, 2021 5:15 am

FlyingElvii wrote:
Chuska wrote:
BMcD wrote:
https://gazette.com/premium/southwest-has-high-hopes-big-plans-for-colorado-springs/article_e6a50b30-7ad5-11eb-8dd9-a319bbf0e733.html

Looks like advanced bookings are ahead of forecasts and is willing to expand. Great news for COS and expansion of services.

The usage of gates is interesting, there is an east side that has either never been used or was used very minimally for the WestPac expansion. Right now it is housing offices and meetings but guessing it can be transformed into a concourse/gates again quickly.


The east concourse was built specifically for Western Pacific in 1996 and it was used extensively but only for a short period of time before, ironically, WestPac retreated from COS and moved to DEN and went broke. DIA (the new DEN) had just opened and was so far out of town that WestPac had the same idea, lure people from south Denver to COS, but it didn't work. WestPac even tried developing a feeder carrier, Mountain Air Express, or MAX. Things have really changed in the past 25 years and COS is much bigger now. WestPac was bran new back then but WN has been around for 50 years now, they know how to make COS work.

There was a lot more to it than that.....
United saw Western Pacific in COS as an mortal threat to the then new DIA ops. People weren’t sold on traveling so far out to the then Utterly remote airport after Stapleton closed.

UA FLOODED the COS market with seats, including adding DC-10’s. And they also had figured out WP’s Achilles heel.
At that time, The only aircraft capable of consistently operating with full loads out of there on high and hot days was the 737-300. WP’s entire business plan was built around that one airplane.

So United went out on the world market, and bought or leased every single available one, sometimes at 25-50% over market rates, even going so far as to create an entirely new financial instrument ( cannot remember exactly what it was called.) to pay for them. They sold these aircraft financing certificates for each plane to retirement funds, Wall Street Funds, Eric., with the promise that the dividends would be United’s Aircraft lease payments, you would own a share of a United Plane. It was a great sales pitch to Grandma. They were considered rock solid investments, because United Airlines could NEVER go bankrupt, right?

These were the FIRST planes United dumped in the bankruptcy, every single one of them. The certificate investors got burnt, badly.


Thanks for all that detailed info, very interesting. I recall now that AA also flooded the COS-DFW market with at least four 757's in defense of WestPac. We'll see if AA makes any defensive moves this time against WN like bringing back COS-PHX. That UA DC-10 on COS-DEN was a real treat.
 
BMcD
Posts: 114
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2014 4:11 pm

Re: Southwest in COS

Thu Mar 11, 2021 2:22 pm

Chuska wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
Chuska wrote:

The east concourse was built specifically for Western Pacific in 1996 and it was used extensively but only for a short period of time before, ironically, WestPac retreated from COS and moved to DEN and went broke. DIA (the new DEN) had just opened and was so far out of town that WestPac had the same idea, lure people from south Denver to COS, but it didn't work. WestPac even tried developing a feeder carrier, Mountain Air Express, or MAX. Things have really changed in the past 25 years and COS is much bigger now. WestPac was bran new back then but WN has been around for 50 years now, they know how to make COS work.

There was a lot more to it than that.....
United saw Western Pacific in COS as an mortal threat to the then new DIA ops. People weren’t sold on traveling so far out to the then Utterly remote airport after Stapleton closed.

UA FLOODED the COS market with seats, including adding DC-10’s. And they also had figured out WP’s Achilles heel.
At that time, The only aircraft capable of consistently operating with full loads out of there on high and hot days was the 737-300. WP’s entire business plan was built around that one airplane.

So United went out on the world market, and bought or leased every single available one, sometimes at 25-50% over market rates, even going so far as to create an entirely new financial instrument ( cannot remember exactly what it was called.) to pay for them. They sold these aircraft financing certificates for each plane to retirement funds, Wall Street Funds, Eric., with the promise that the dividends would be United’s Aircraft lease payments, you would own a share of a United Plane. It was a great sales pitch to Grandma. They were considered rock solid investments, because United Airlines could NEVER go bankrupt, right?

These were the FIRST planes United dumped in the bankruptcy, every single one of them. The certificate investors got burnt, badly.


Thanks for all that detailed info, very interesting. I recall now that AA also flooded the COS-DFW market with at least four 757's in defense of WestPac. We'll see if AA makes any defensive moves this time against WN like bringing back COS-PHX. That UA DC-10 on COS-DEN was a real treat.


I don't think AA is going to do anything. These routes were announced months ago and WN's entrance was announced. Really United was the only one who really "responded" with some upgauges to mainline but nothing drastic. DL's presence is much like Frontier, it is really a UA vs WN with AA a distant third. Everyone else is really token service.
 
BMcD
Posts: 114
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2014 4:11 pm

Re: Southwest in COS

Thu Mar 11, 2021 2:25 pm

WN1623 is running early into DEN that will continue on into COS for the first revenue flight. WN is sending the Colorado One Livery 73G in (and should get a shower on the way into the gate).
 
Wneast
Posts: 969
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:37 pm

Re: Southwest in COS

Thu Mar 11, 2021 4:43 pm

Looks like there were no adds today in COS
 
BMcD
Posts: 114
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2014 4:11 pm

Re: Southwest in COS

Thu Mar 11, 2021 5:08 pm

https://twitter.com/COSAirport/status/1 ... 7874034695

17L landing, we are having some weather/winds ahead of a big front moving through.

https://twitter.com/CSCEDC/status/1370056153053474816

Coming into the gate. Colorado One Livery is awesome too.
 
BMcD
Posts: 114
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2014 4:11 pm

Re: Southwest in COS

Thu Mar 11, 2021 5:47 pm

A local reporter got good videos facing north to south towards 17L of the Denver and Chicago flights inbound:

https://twitter.com/SHumphreyTV/status/ ... 0784948228
 
ScottB
Posts: 7515
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

Re: Southwest in COS

Thu Mar 11, 2021 6:19 pm

Citrus1492 wrote:
The Wrong Amendment hastened their MSYDAL service. WN moved east very cautiously, MSY would have come later if not for the Wrong Amendment.


You have that entirely backwards. Southwest's DAL-MSY service caused the Wright Amendment. DAL-MSY was the very first interstate route Southwest announced in 1979, just as the era of regulated routes and fares was coming to a close. Up until then, WN had only flown within the state of Texas, so they weren't subject to the Civil Aeronautics Board's oversight on routes and fares; the CAB's order to consolidate air service in the region at DFW didn't apply to WN because they weren't subject to CAB jurisdiction as an intrastate carrier.

Southwest had already had an enormous impact on the intra-Texas market with their low fares, so it was clear to officials in Fort Worth (and their powerful representative in the House, Jim Wright) that a rapidly-growing Southwest at DAL would threaten their investment in DFW Airport as well as their economic competitiveness -- their previous attempt at a regional airport (GSW/ACF) just west of the current DFW site was an enormous flop. Most people even then wanted to fly to/from Dallas. So Jim Wright rammed his amendment through Congress to protect his home city. At least it wasn't quite as bad as his original plan which would have prohibited WN from any interstate flying from DAL.

Citrus1492 wrote:
OKCDAL, ABQDAL, LITDAL, MSYDAL were all operated due to the Wrong Amendment. Im not surprised one of them has gone away. OKCDAL is the shortest one, it makes sense it has lower performance than the others.


Historically these were all quite strong markets -- there tends to be robust business traffic in short-haul markets with travelers taking day trips to visit customers/vendors/other company offices. Even 20 years ago, DAL/DFW-OKC was close to 250 PDEW -- larger than DFW-SLC, DFW-RDU, DFW-BNA, or DFW-CLT, although those markets were obviously heavily suppressed by high network carrier cartel pricing. What really killed DAL-OKC was a combination of factors -- speed limits went from 55 mph in the 1970s/1980s to 70 or 75 most of the way today TSA changed a quick walk through a magnetometer into today's clusterf*, and the growth of the DFW region's suburbs to the north made the drive to OKC that much shorter. WN's fares in short-haul markets have also gone up quite a bit and that has reduced traffic. It's analogous to AUS-HOU/IAH -- 20 years ago, Houston was the #2 market from AUS, but now it's closer to #30.

OKC-DAL would have probably stuck around but for the restriction on gate count at DAL. With a facilities-imposed cap on the number of daily flights they can offer, it makes sense to focus on larger O&D markets than heavily-connecting markets.

BMcD wrote:
I believe they already have the jet bridges out there too, so there wouldn't need to be ordering anything for those either.


I'd be surprised if the East Concourse jet bridges are functional after nearly 25 years of disuse, unless the City has been keeping up with maintenance and periodically making sure to move them around a bit.

FlyingElvii wrote:
United saw Western Pacific in COS as an mortal threat to the then new DIA ops. People weren’t sold on traveling so far out to the then Utterly remote airport after Stapleton closed.


Well, it's not as if COS was all that convenient to Denver. I think UA management saw that WestPac wasn't profitable and just needed an extra push to go under. By losing some money short-term at DEN/COS, United could eliminate a competitor and subsequently exploit its near-monopoly at DEN.
 
BMcD
Posts: 114
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2014 4:11 pm

Re: Southwest in COS

Thu Mar 11, 2021 6:40 pm

BMcD wrote:
I believe they already have the jet bridges out there too, so there wouldn't need to be ordering anything for those either.


I'd be surprised if the East Concourse jet bridges are functional after nearly 25 years of disuse, unless the City has been keeping up with maintenance and periodically making sure to move them around a bit.

From my understanding they were being maintained, but if not that shouldn't be a huge barrier. I don't think it would take much time to get that concourse back up. I think the airport would probably issue bonds to do it as a benefit to WN as well. I saw they installed some addtional deicing equipment a few weeks back (and we will be needing it for the next week or so). I don't see this as a quick in and out for WN, it looks like they put some investment into the station.
 
Wneast
Posts: 969
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:37 pm

Re: Southwest in COS

Thu Mar 11, 2021 6:43 pm

They said they will be adding new non stops in the near term when could that be since it wasn’t today ?
 
SurfandSnow
Posts: 1666
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 7:09 am

Re: Southwest in COS

Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:12 pm

Wneast wrote:
They said they will be adding new non stops in the near term when could that be since it wasn’t today ?


I have to think WN, until it was willing to give HDN a try, relied on its traditional business model of getting people to drive in some cases several hours each way to catch Southwest Airlines flights. While this might have been a viable strategy in flatter parts of the country like the Midwest and South, WN may very well have quickly realized folks living in or visiting Colorado don't necessarily all want to drive through or along mountains to/from DEN for their flights. DEN also isn't known for short walks to gates or quickly delivering checked bags, unlike other Colorado airports.

COS currently doesn't have any nonstop service to the San Francisco Bay Area or Pacific Northwest. I suppose the failures of carriers like AS, F9 and UA to serve such places nonstop from COS may be telling, but perhaps WN could give COS-OAK a try? Even something like COS-BWI might be possible, given WN's popularity with Colorado FFers...
 
OKCDCA
Posts: 299
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:50 am

Re: Southwest in COS

Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:16 pm

Heard the first three flights were in the 70% range from a friend who attended the ceremonies. Welcome to COS WN! A big day for the Pikes Peak region!
 
Wneast
Posts: 969
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:37 pm

Re: Southwest in COS

Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:17 pm

SurfandSnow wrote:
Wneast wrote:
They said they will be adding new non stops in the near term when could that be since it wasn’t today ?


I have to think WN, until it was willing to give HDN a try, relied on its traditional business model of getting people to drive in some cases several hours each way to catch Southwest Airlines flights. While this might have been a viable strategy in flatter parts of the country like the Midwest and South, WN may very well have quickly realized folks living in or visiting Colorado don't necessarily all want to drive through or along mountains to/from DEN for their flights. DEN also isn't known for short walks to gates or quickly delivering checked bags, unlike other Colorado airports.
I guessing c a lot of the cites they serve from Denver could be potentially adds ?
COS currently doesn't have any nonstop service to the San Francisco Bay Area or Pacific Northwest. I suppose the failures of carriers like AS, F9 and UA to serve such places nonstop from COS may be telling, but perhaps WN could give COS-OAK a try? Even something like COS-BWI might be possible, given WN's popularity with Colorado FFers...
 
ATCJesus
Posts: 56
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2019 3:39 am

Re: Southwest in COS

Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:09 pm

OKCDCA wrote:
Heard the first three flights were in the 70% range from a friend who attended the ceremonies. Welcome to COS WN! A big day for the Pikes Peak region!


First flight from Vegas had 67 ppl on board.
 
wnflyguy
Posts: 2506
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:58 pm

Re: Southwest in COS

Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:14 pm

Wneast wrote:
They said they will be adding new non stops in the near term when could that be since it wasn’t today ?

Only thing heard today from COS was they are watching the strong results from the new service and could add additional service by summertime.
WN next schedule release is April 22.
With the Covid Vaccine roll out and new loosening of
Restrictions I'm sure WN will add some capacity.

Flyguy
 
Wneast
Posts: 969
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:37 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:14 pm

Does anyone see southwest defending in Austin and or moving into expanding in the Pacific Northwest with place like Alaska and other flights to go against Alaskas add or double down on California?
 
Wneast
Posts: 969
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:37 pm

Re: Southwest in COS

Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:16 pm

wnflyguy wrote:
Wneast wrote:
They said they will be adding new non stops in the near term when could that be since it wasn’t today ?

Only thing heard today from COS was they are watching the strong results from the new service and could add additional service by summertime.
WN next schedule release is April 22.
With the Covid Vaccine roll out and new loosening of
Restrictions I'm sure WN will add some capacity.

Flyguy

What do you see them focusing on in the next schedule update ?
 
BMcD
Posts: 114
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2014 4:11 pm

Re: Southwest in COS

Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:34 pm

Wneast wrote:
wnflyguy wrote:
Wneast wrote:
They said they will be adding new non stops in the near term when could that be since it wasn’t today ?

Only thing heard today from COS was they are watching the strong results from the new service and could add additional service by summertime.
WN next schedule release is April 22.
With the Covid Vaccine roll out and new loosening of
Restrictions I'm sure WN will add some capacity.

Flyguy

What do you see them focusing on in the next schedule update ?


I'm thinking west coast will be next up.
 
Wneast
Posts: 969
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:37 pm

Re: Southwest in COS

Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:37 pm

BMcD wrote:
Wneast wrote:
wnflyguy wrote:
Only thing heard today from COS was they are watching the strong results from the new service and could add additional service by summertime.
WN next schedule release is April 22.
With the Covid Vaccine roll out and new loosening of
Restrictions I'm sure WN will add some capacity.

Flyguy

What do you see them focusing on in the next schedule update ?


I'm thinking west coast will be next up.

Are you thinking there going to double down on California?
 
EGEflyer
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:35 pm

Re: Southwest in COS

Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:44 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
EGE has a very unusual relationship with Vail resorts, but I would guess EGE is their next Colorado airport if wn wants more. They operate lots of 737-700s which is the perfect aircraft for that airport.


Not certain why people think EGE is a natural for WN. It endures competition from I-70 DEN flyers, and requires pilots to have a special qualification due to the terrain and departure procedures(unlike HDN or MTJ).
 
User avatar
LotsaRunway
Posts: 466
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 8:23 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:58 pm

Any idea what happened to the tread on WN new plane orders (Boeing vs Airbus)? There was some news on possible Max7 orders getting close. That still seems discussion worthey.
 
tomaheath
Posts: 702
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 11:58 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:03 pm

LotsaRunway wrote:
Any idea what happened to the tread on WN new plane orders (Boeing vs Airbus)? There was some news on possible Max7 orders getting close. That still seems discussion worthey.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1458625 Here you go.

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