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AC4500
Posts: 714
Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2020 3:02 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Wed Jul 14, 2021 5:39 pm

B6BOSfan wrote:
ScottB wrote:
B6BOSfan wrote:
They have become basically a hub airline for BOS, and they don't even serve all of their hubs. MCO gets a once-weekly fight from BOS. DAL isn't served. DEN had flights chopped all summer -- and continues to have limited direct service for the fall/winter -- which then limits journeys you can make from there.


Have you actually been in Boston in the last two years? Recovery from the pandemic in Boston and New York has significantly lagged the rest of the country. Even in May, total passenger count at BOS was still down 55% compared to the same month in 2019. B6 was at maybe 80 daily departures in April and BOS is their second-most-important market.

WN is operating five daily OAK-LAX flights today -- compared to more like a dozen in pre-pandemic times. Does that mean WN is abandoning the intra-California market, or does it mean that WN is temporarily adjusting their schedule and network to reflect the realities of a market which is still recovering from pandemic lockdowns?


I LIVE in Boston Scott AND flew multiple times during the middle of the pandemic. I can tell you, point blank, Southwest's service to/from BOS Is less now than it was last summer/fall during the pandemic -- and even lower vs. their previous years when everyone was thriving.

Southwest actually did one of the best jobs of any airline holding service up to at least their hubs as others were cutting flights. I flew them multiple times out of BOS during the pandemic. They don't service the business customer in Boston like a BIG chunk of the other airlines do. I'd bet that a big chunk of the passengers still not flying (40% or more) is ALL business travelers.

Their cuts began far before the pandemic began. The DAL flight, the MKE flight, all were cut -- BEFORE the pandemic hit.

They make it impossible to fly to so many of the destinations they advertise -- because of the continued amounts of cuts, or miserable one flight times they are offering.

As another user said, Southwest does spectacular across most of the USA. They are LOST when it comes to New England -- particularly Eastern New England.

Throughout the pandemic, WN has really shifted away from developing their mid-size stations and has become more of a 'hub-and-spoke' airline. This hasn't boded well for mid-size WN stations, like BOS. They have consolidated the bulk of their operations at larger WN stations, like ATL, BWI, MDW, DEN, LAS, BNA, PHX, and less frequencies at mid-size WN stations (but large markets), like BOS, DTW, MSY, PDX, SLC, SEA, MSP, and IAD. IDK how long this trend will continue and if WN will ever fully recover at their mid-size stations.
 
AC4500
Posts: 714
Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2020 3:02 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Wed Jul 14, 2021 5:43 pm

Fun fact: SJC-PDX used to have 8 or 9 daily WN flights in 2019 (source: http://wandr.me/bts, I used 11/1/2019). Now there's just 2 daily flights, and only 1 flight on Saturdays. Obviously the bay area still has a long way to go when it comes to travel demand recovering (similar to the New England/NYC area), but it doesn't seem like WN has any plans to recover to 2018-2019 capacity on routes like SJC-PDX.
Last edited by AC4500 on Wed Jul 14, 2021 5:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
tphuang
Posts: 6637
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Wed Jul 14, 2021 5:48 pm

I think all those west coast business routes are going to come back to pre-COVID level of capacity over the next year. Gary Kelly even said they will be focused on restoring old markets rather than adding new markets over the next year or 2.
 
ScottB
Posts: 7553
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Wed Jul 14, 2021 5:49 pm

B6BOSfan wrote:
I LIVE in Boston Scott AND flew multiple times during the middle of the pandemic. I can tell you, point blank, Southwest's service to/from BOS Is less now than it was last summer/fall during the pandemic -- and even lower vs. their previous years when everyone was thriving.


They don't have less service now than in summer 2020. Today they're running 16 departures -- 5x BWI, 4x MDW, 3x DEN, 2x STL & BNA. (Fact sheet claims 20 peak-day flights but I looked up today's schedule.) They had 400 monthly flights to BOS in June 2020, 436 in July 2020, and 464 in August 2020 -- so an average of 14 daily flights (ranging from 13 to 15 as the summer progressed). Fall 2020 was even lower -- generally 8 to 9 daily flights on average for WN at BOS.

I mean, sure their service is even lower than past years -- traffic hasn't recovered from BOS yet and they haven't built back parts of their network which are strong, either.

B6BOSfan wrote:
They make it impossible to fly to so many of the destinations they advertise -- because of the continued amounts of cuts, or miserable one flight times they are offering.


Um, remember we are still recovering from a pandemic and the response to that pandemic? B6 announced in December 2019 they were going to fly BOS-LGA 10x daily. They don't serve BOS-LGA at all right now (although you can connect at ACK). Do I think that means B6 has abandoned BOS or NYC? No, I think that means we're in a weird period and can make few valid assumptions about long-term plans for any airline based on what their schedules are today.
 
jplatts
Posts: 4891
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Wed Jul 14, 2021 5:54 pm

B6BOSfan wrote:
Their cuts began far before the pandemic began. The DAL flight, the MKE flight, all were cut -- BEFORE the pandemic hit.


WN was originally planning on resuming DAL-BOS nonstop service on a seasonal basis in Spring 2020, but dropped those plans due to the COVID-19 pandemic. I had also previously mentioned the possibility of WN re-adding DAL-BOS nonstop service with the significant amount of demand that was there to BOS from Texas on WN prior to the pandemic.

One issue that WN faced on some of its Midwest to BOS nonstop routes such as BOS-CMH/IND/MKE was the weaker demand that was there to BOS from CMH/IND/MKE on WN in the wintertime and the weak average load factors that WN was getting on BOS-CMH/IND/MKE nonstop routes in the wintertime (even prior to the pandemic).

Here were the number of passengers, number of seats, and load factors of BOS-CMH/IND/MKE in Q1 2019, broken down by month:
BOS-CMH in 1/2019 - 3805 passengers, 8349 seats, 45.57% load factor
BOS-CMH in 2/2019 - 4255 passengers, 7826 seats, 54.37% load factor
BOS-CMH in 3/2019 - 4948 passengers, 7056 seats, 70.12% load factor
BOS-IND in 1/2019 - 3779 passengers, 6960 seats, 54.30% load factor
BOS-IND in 2/2019 - 3063 passengers, 5291 seats, 57.89% load factor
BOS-IND in 3/2019 - 5368 passengers, 8208 seats, 65.40% load factor
BOS-MKE in 1/2019 - 2816 passengers, 5641 seats, 49.92% load factor
BOS-MKE in 2/2019 - 2923 passengers, 5291 seats, 55.24% load factor
BOS-MKE in 3/2019 - 5412 passengers, 8048 seats, 67.25% load factor

I can understand WN permanently dropping BOS-CMH/IND/MKE nonstop service as the demand to BOS from CMH/IND/MKE on WN is even weaker due to the COVID-19 pandemic than was the case prior to the pandemic.

I had also previously mentioned that other airlines have partially filled in the void left behind by the discontinuation of WN BOS-CMH/IND/MKE nonstop service, with AA having already added BOS-CMH/IND nonstop service, with G4 having recently added BOS-IND nonstop service, and with B6 planning to add BOS-MKE nonstop service.
 
DN4CAAD
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:55 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Wed Jul 14, 2021 6:32 pm

Just out of curiosity and not to throw the thread off, but why are there still so many Canyon Blue jets? Why is WN taking so long to respray them into Heart liv?
 
jplatts
Posts: 4891
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Wed Jul 14, 2021 7:17 pm

DN4CAAD wrote:
Just out of curiosity and not to throw the thread off, but why are there still so many Canyon Blue jets? Why is WN taking so long to respray them into Heart liv?


WN needed the 737-700 and 737-800 planes that were still in the Canyon Blue livery in service due to the plane shortages that WN was facing as a result of the 737-300 retirements and 737 MAX grounding.

WN has already taken delivery of at least 19 737 MAX 8 planes this year, and WN is currently scheduled to take delivery of an additional 16 737 MAX planes this year (as WN was scheduled to take delivery of 35 737 MAX 8 planes in 2021).
 
DN4CAAD
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:55 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Wed Jul 14, 2021 7:31 pm

jplatts wrote:
DN4CAAD wrote:
Just out of curiosity and not to throw the thread off, but why are there still so many Canyon Blue jets? Why is WN taking so long to respray them into Heart liv?


WN needed the 737-700 and 737-800 planes that were still in the Canyon Blue livery in service due to the plane shortages that WN was facing as a result of the 737-300 retirements and 737 MAX grounding.

WN has already taken delivery of at least 19 737 MAX 8 planes this year, and WN is currently scheduled to take delivery of an additional 16 737 MAX planes this year (as WN was scheduled to take delivery of 35 737 MAX 8 planes in 2021).


So remaining Canyon Blue's that haven't been repainted will be facing the axe soon?
 
orlandocfi
Posts: 157
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:53 am

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Wed Jul 14, 2021 8:19 pm

DN4CAAD wrote:
jplatts wrote:
DN4CAAD wrote:
Just out of curiosity and not to throw the thread off, but why are there still so many Canyon Blue jets? Why is WN taking so long to respray them into Heart liv?


WN needed the 737-700 and 737-800 planes that were still in the Canyon Blue livery in service due to the plane shortages that WN was facing as a result of the 737-300 retirements and 737 MAX grounding.

WN has already taken delivery of at least 19 737 MAX 8 planes this year, and WN is currently scheduled to take delivery of an additional 16 737 MAX planes this year (as WN was scheduled to take delivery of 35 737 MAX 8 planes in 2021).


So remaining Canyon Blue's that haven't been repainted will be facing the axe soon?


That is mostly true for the -700, but not the -800. The canyon blue -800s will certainly be repainted. The old -700s slated for removal will obviously not be repainted. Some of them are looking pretty rough!
 
jplatts
Posts: 4891
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Sat Jul 17, 2021 10:54 pm

ECP, GRR, GSP, LGB, PNS, RSW, and SJU saw more passengers on WN in April 2021 than in April 2019.

Here were the number of passengers, number of seats, load factors, and percent increase in passengers at ECP, GRR, GSP, LGB, PNS, and RSW in April 2019 and April 2021:
ECP:
49743 passengers in 4/2019, 66406 seats in 4/2019, 74.91% load factor in 4/2019
74278 passengers in 4/2019, 96719 seats in 4/2021, 76.80% load factor in 4/2021
149.3% increase in passengers

GRR:
34434 passengers in 4/2019, 47917 seats in 4/2019, 71.86% load factor in 4/2019
43628 passengers in 4/2019, 59766 seats in 4/2021, 73.00% load factor in 4/2021
126.7% increase in passengers

GSP:
16699 passengers in 4/2019, 25059 seats in 4/2019, 66.64% load factor in 4/2019
21338 passengers in 4/2019, 34693 seats in 4/2021, 61.51% load factor in 4/2021
127.8% increase in passengers

LGB:
91954 passengers in 4/2019, 121280 seats in 4/2019, 75.82% load factor in 4/2019
133621 passengers in 4/2019, 223358 seats in 4/2021, 59.82% load factor in 4/2021
145.3% increase in passengers

PNS:
29252 passengers in 4/2019, 35525 seats in 4/2019, 82.34% load factor in 4/2019
47581 passengers in 4/2019, 60923 seats in 4/2021, 78.10% load factor in 4/2021
162.7% increase in passengers

RSW:
165392 passengers in 4/2019, 199700 seats in 4/2019, 82.82% load factor in 4/2019
251994 passengers in 4/2019, 318001 seats in 4/2021, 79.24% load factor in 4/2021
152.4% increase in passengers

SJU:
82903 passengers in 4/2019, 91451 seats in 4/2019, 90.65% load factor in 4/2019
91432 passengers in 4/2021, 112742 seats in 4/2021, 81.10% load factor in 4/2021
110.3% increase in passengers
 
Silver1SWA
Posts: 4770
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:11 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Sat Jul 17, 2021 11:52 pm

DN4CAAD wrote:
Just out of curiosity and not to throw the thread off, but why are there still so many Canyon Blue jets? Why is WN taking so long to respray them into Heart liv?


Aircraft are painted when the lifespan of the previous paint job has expired or when the aircraft enters a heavy maintenance check. It takes roughly 7-10 years to fully transition such a large fleet to a new paint scheme. And as mentioned above planes scheduled to leave the fleet soon probably won’t be painted even if they’re due for fresh paint.
 
DaCubbyBearBar
Posts: 379
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:31 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Sun Jul 18, 2021 12:14 am

jplatts wrote:
ECP, GRR, GSP, LGB, PNS, RSW, and SJU saw more passengers on WN in April 2021 than in April 2019.

Here were the number of passengers, number of seats, load factors, and percent increase in passengers at ECP, GRR, GSP, LGB, PNS, and RSW in April 2019 and April 2021:
ECP:
49743 passengers in 4/2019, 66406 seats in 4/2019, 74.91% load factor in 4/2019
74278 passengers in 4/2019, 96719 seats in 4/2021, 76.80% load factor in 4/2021
149.3% increase in passengers

GRR:
34434 passengers in 4/2019, 47917 seats in 4/2019, 71.86% load factor in 4/2019
43628 passengers in 4/2019, 59766 seats in 4/2021, 73.00% load factor in 4/2021
126.7% increase in passengers

GSP:
16699 passengers in 4/2019, 25059 seats in 4/2019, 66.64% load factor in 4/2019
21338 passengers in 4/2019, 34693 seats in 4/2021, 61.51% load factor in 4/2021
127.8% increase in passengers

LGB:
91954 passengers in 4/2019, 121280 seats in 4/2019, 75.82% load factor in 4/2019
133621 passengers in 4/2019, 223358 seats in 4/2021, 59.82% load factor in 4/2021
145.3% increase in passengers

PNS:
29252 passengers in 4/2019, 35525 seats in 4/2019, 82.34% load factor in 4/2019
47581 passengers in 4/2019, 60923 seats in 4/2021, 78.10% load factor in 4/2021
162.7% increase in passengers

RSW:
165392 passengers in 4/2019, 199700 seats in 4/2019, 82.82% load factor in 4/2019
251994 passengers in 4/2019, 318001 seats in 4/2021, 79.24% load factor in 4/2021
152.4% increase in passengers

SJU:
82903 passengers in 4/2019, 91451 seats in 4/2019, 90.65% load factor in 4/2019
91432 passengers in 4/2021, 112742 seats in 4/2021, 81.10% load factor in 4/2021
110.3% increase in passengers

Great comparison, but where did those numbers come from? Your percentage on the increases are wrong. You need to drop the 100 part, as an example SJU only increased 10.3%, not 110.3%. While traffic did increase, only 2 of the cities had load factor increase while the rest decreased. LGB was pretty noticeable decrease in load factor.
 
jplatts
Posts: 4891
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Sun Jul 18, 2021 12:31 am

DaCubbyBearBar wrote:
Great comparison, but where did those numbers come from? Your percentage on the increases are wrong. You need to drop the 100 part, as an example SJU only increased 10.3%, not 110.3%. While traffic did increase, only 2 of the cities had load factor increase while the rest decreased. LGB was pretty noticeable decrease in load factor.


The numbers came from the T-100 Domestic Segment table, which can be found at https://www.transtats.bts.gov/databases.asp?Z1qr_VQ=E&Z1qr_Qr5p=N8vn6v10&f7owrp6_VQF=D.

Thank you for correcting my mistake regarding the percent increase.
 
jplatts
Posts: 4891
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Sun Jul 18, 2021 12:36 am

Here were the number of passengers, number of seats, and load factors for WN flights out of LGB in April 2021:
AUS-LGB - 7078 passengers, 8836 seats, 80.10% load factor
DAL-LGB - 6935 passengers, 8693 seats, 79.78% load factor
DEN-LGB - 18584 passengers, 34295 seats, 54.19% load factor
HNL-LGB - 6570 passengers, 10325 seats, 63.63% load factor
HOU-LGB - 6458 passengers, 9508 seats, 67.92% load factor
LAS-LGB - 22609 passengers, 35347 seats, 63.96% load factor
LGB-MDW - 6665 passengers, 9668 seats, 68.94% load factor
LGB-OAK - 11169 passengers, 22066 seats, 50.62% load factor
LGB-OGG - 7402 passengers, 10500 seats, 70.50% load factor
LGB-PHX - 15334 passengers, 28253 seats, 54.27% load factor
LGB-RNO - 4548 passengers, 7312 seats, 62.20% load factor
LGB-SJC - 2803 passengers, 9651 seats, 29.04% load factor
LGB-SMF - 13708 passengers, 21891 seats, 62.62% load factor
LGB-STL - 3758 passengers, 7013 seats, 53.59% load factor
 
DaCubbyBearBar
Posts: 379
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:31 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Sun Jul 18, 2021 5:52 am

jplatts wrote:
Here were the number of passengers, number of seats, and load factors for WN flights out of LGB in April 2021:
AUS-LGB - 7078 passengers, 8836 seats, 80.10% load factor
DAL-LGB - 6935 passengers, 8693 seats, 79.78% load factor
DEN-LGB - 18584 passengers, 34295 seats, 54.19% load factor
HNL-LGB - 6570 passengers, 10325 seats, 63.63% load factor
HOU-LGB - 6458 passengers, 9508 seats, 67.92% load factor
LAS-LGB - 22609 passengers, 35347 seats, 63.96% load factor
LGB-MDW - 6665 passengers, 9668 seats, 68.94% load factor
LGB-OAK - 11169 passengers, 22066 seats, 50.62% load factor
LGB-OGG - 7402 passengers, 10500 seats, 70.50% load factor
LGB-PHX - 15334 passengers, 28253 seats, 54.27% load factor
LGB-RNO - 4548 passengers, 7312 seats, 62.20% load factor
LGB-SJC - 2803 passengers, 9651 seats, 29.04% load factor
LGB-SMF - 13708 passengers, 21891 seats, 62.62% load factor
LGB-STL - 3758 passengers, 7013 seats, 53.59% load factor

WOW!! Thanks for the breakdown
 
wnflyguy
Posts: 2537
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:58 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Mon Jul 19, 2021 2:45 am

I saw on a Facebook group United pulling out of PAE after October 5th. I believe UA held 6 total slots.
I wonder if WN might look at it again?

Enjoy or Don’t
Flyguy
 
Wneast
Posts: 1022
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:37 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Mon Jul 19, 2021 2:47 am

wnflyguy wrote:
I saw on a Facebook group United pulling out of PAE after October 5th. I believe UA held 6 total slots.
I wonder if WN might look at it again?

Enjoy or Don’t
Flyguy

What you think they would fly ? But there’s also that they should build up BLI in my opinion
 
ibthebigd
Posts: 450
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:12 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Mon Jul 19, 2021 2:48 am

2X OAK
2X DEN
2X LAS/PHX

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 
joeblow10
Posts: 659
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Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Mon Jul 19, 2021 3:16 am

If UA can’t make an E175 once a day to DEN work (or at one point, SFO…) I struggle to see how WN would fair any better using more frequencies and 737s, even if they connect up and down the coast
 
tphuang
Posts: 6637
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Mon Jul 19, 2021 11:35 am

WN will not try PAE. That'd be downright foolish.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 4511
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Mon Jul 19, 2021 12:16 pm

Southwest is in the middle of chopping their sept schedule this week. Chopped thru the 11th last night. Guessing they do thru the 18th tonight
 
jplatts
Posts: 4891
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Mon Jul 19, 2021 12:55 pm

joeblow10 wrote:
If UA can’t make an E175 once a day to DEN work (or at one point, SFO…) I struggle to see how WN would fair any better using more frequencies and 737s, even if they connect up and down the coast


WN does have nonstop service out of DEN to some destinations that UA doesn't currently serve nonstop from DEN such as ALB, BUF, MDW, DAL, HOU, and LGB. WN also has more market share than UA does in many of the non-UA hub markets in the contiguous U.S. that are served by both UA and WN (at least prior to the COVID-19 pandemic).

While UA doesn't currently serve MDW, DAL, HOU, or LGB, UA does serve DEN nonstop from ORD, DFW, IAH, and LAX.

WN might be able to make PAE-DEN nonstop service work if WN can get enough connecting traffic onto PAE-DEN nonstop flights from destinations east of the Rocky Mountains.

tphuang wrote:
WN will not try PAE. That'd be downright foolish.


I agree with your point as most of those traveling to Greater Seattle from other parts of the contiguous U.S. prefer to fly into SEA.

WN also has more room at SEA to add more flights with the cuts that WN made at SEA during the last 1 1/2 years due to the COVID-19 pandemic.

There are also a few more nonstop routes that could be re-added by WN out of SEA such as SEA-AUS/BWI/HOU.
 
wnflyguy
Posts: 2537
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:58 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Mon Jul 19, 2021 3:54 pm

So I reached out to a reliable WN source asked if WN would entertain PAE again? The answer was a HARD NO! Apparently AW head of WN network planning felt the airport terminal had to many short comings like Lack of passengers parking areas,Terminal was too small to accommodate the everyone and The terminal management had more rules and restrictions that SNA. So AW saw more value in trading PAE slots for LGA slots with AS. And had long envisioned tapping into Vancouver BC via BLI since AS was jumping ship in favor of PAE.

So No PAE for WN.

Enjoy or Don’t
Flyguy
 
maps4ltd
Posts: 970
Joined: Tue May 08, 2018 4:48 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Mon Jul 19, 2021 6:25 pm

Have all of the 737-700s had their Evolve seats updated with the blue seat covers? Last time I saw the brown-and-blue Evolve seats was on N7709A in December 2019 (which was retired in June 2020).
 
jplatts
Posts: 4891
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Wed Jul 21, 2021 2:21 am

SteveXC500 wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
Not sure if new, Southwest's next schedule extension is slated for September 16, 2021 which will extend the schedule through April 24, 2022.

https://www.southwest.com/air/flight-schedules/


By 9/16, WN will have just 3.5 months available for sale. Wow, that seems extremely low. Any thoughts?


I would likely expect WN to respond to the recent F9 adds out of DFW by adding DAL-BUF/CVG/BDL nonstop service and re-adding DAL-SFO nonstop service. WN has more than enough room at DAL to add at least Saturday-only nonstop service to these destinations with WN operating fewer nonstop flights out of DAL on Saturdays than it does on weekdays or Sundays.

WN has significantly more market share than F9 in the BUF, BDL, and SFO/OAK/SJC markets. WN also has FF bases in the BUF, BDL, and SFO/OAK/SJC markets in addition to the DFW/DAL market to support DAL-BUF/BDL/SFO nonstop service.

The situation is different in the CVG market as F9 had served DFW nonstop from CVG prior to WN entering the CVG market. F9 also had more market share in the CVG market than WN did, but that is changing with the decreasing F9 presence at CVG and increasing WN presence at CVG. F9 has also permanently dropped many of its previous nonstop routes out of CVG, including CVG-AUS/FLL/IAH/JAX/LAX/MSP/LGA/PHL/PHX/RDU/SAT/SAN/SFO/SJC/IAD, whereas WN has kept or resumed most of its nonstop routes out of CVG, including CVG-BWI/MDW/RSW/HOU/MCO/PHX/SRQ/TPA. F9 also had stronger point-of-sale in the CVG market than WN (at least prior to the pandemic or recent WN adds out of CVG) to sustain CVG-DFW nonstop service on F9.

WN can make DAL-BUF/CVG/BDL/SFO nonstop service work with less O&D than F9 needs to make DFW-BUF/CVG/BDL/SFO nonstop service work with the connections that WN would be able to offer through DAL.

I probably would also expect WN to re-add DAL-BOS/DTW nonstop service since WN had previously stated that it wants to rebuild its network and since WN was planning on resuming both of these routes prior to the pandemic. There was also significant demand to BOS from DAL on WN prior to the pandemic, and WN also had a significant amount of O&D traffic on DAL-BOS nonstop flights prior to dropping DAL-BOS nonstop service.

I also would probably expect WN to re-add DAL-PBI nonstop service (even it it is on a less-than-daily basis) as WN was able to make DAL-PBI nonstop service work in Spring 2019.
 
AC4500
Posts: 714
Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2020 3:02 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Wed Jul 21, 2021 4:31 pm

jplatts wrote:
SteveXC500 wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
Not sure if new, Southwest's next schedule extension is slated for September 16, 2021 which will extend the schedule through April 24, 2022.

https://www.southwest.com/air/flight-schedules/


By 9/16, WN will have just 3.5 months available for sale. Wow, that seems extremely low. Any thoughts?


I would likely expect WN to respond to the recent F9 adds out of DFW by adding DAL-BUF/CVG/BDL nonstop service and re-adding DAL-SFO nonstop service. WN has more than enough room at DAL to add at least Saturday-only nonstop service to these destinations with WN operating fewer nonstop flights out of DAL on Saturdays than it does on weekdays or Sundays.

WN has significantly more market share than F9 in the BUF, BDL, and SFO/OAK/SJC markets. WN also has FF bases in the BUF, BDL, and SFO/OAK/SJC markets in addition to the DFW/DAL market to support DAL-BUF/BDL/SFO nonstop service.

The situation is different in the CVG market as F9 had served DFW nonstop from CVG prior to WN entering the CVG market. F9 also had more market share in the CVG market than WN did, but that is changing with the decreasing F9 presence at CVG and increasing WN presence at CVG. F9 has also permanently dropped many of its previous nonstop routes out of CVG, including CVG-AUS/FLL/IAH/JAX/LAX/MSP/LGA/PHL/PHX/RDU/SAT/SAN/SFO/SJC/IAD, whereas WN has kept or resumed most of its nonstop routes out of CVG, including CVG-BWI/MDW/RSW/HOU/MCO/PHX/SRQ/TPA. F9 also had stronger point-of-sale in the CVG market than WN (at least prior to the pandemic or recent WN adds out of CVG) to sustain CVG-DFW nonstop service on F9.

WN can make DAL-BUF/CVG/BDL/SFO nonstop service work with less O&D than F9 needs to make DFW-BUF/CVG/BDL/SFO nonstop service work with the connections that WN would be able to offer through DAL.

I probably would also expect WN to re-add DAL-BOS/DTW nonstop service since WN had previously stated that it wants to rebuild its network and since WN was planning on resuming both of these routes prior to the pandemic. There was also significant demand to BOS from DAL on WN prior to the pandemic, and WN also had a significant amount of O&D traffic on DAL-BOS nonstop flights prior to dropping DAL-BOS nonstop service.

I also would probably expect WN to re-add DAL-PBI nonstop service (even it it is on a less-than-daily basis) as WN was able to make DAL-PBI nonstop service work in Spring 2019.

WN has no reason to respond to F9. Most of Frontier's new DFW routes are operating only a few times a week, targeting a very niche market.

DAL-CVG & DAL-CLE seem like future routes that could perform well for WN. If WN were to add DAL-BDL/BUF, they would probably be Saturday-only seasonal flights. However, I do agree that as a whole, WN has a lot more network-building to recover from at DAL in comparison to most of their other large stations.
 
jplatts
Posts: 4891
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Fri Jul 23, 2021 5:31 pm

There is an article on WFAA's website (which can be found at https://www.wfaa.com/article/money/business/southwest-gary-kelly-transition-new-ceo-executive-chairman/287-d79a6984-a56e-48bf-8faf-920ea462a741) which said that Henry Harteveldt (the president of Atmosphere Research Group) wants WN to consider how to compete more in the Dallas/Fort Worth market. He had also said that WN's new CEO should consider serving airports in Tarrant County such as FTW or AFW to capture some of the traffic on the Fort Worth side of the Metroplex.

WN will be able to enter DFW, FTW, or AFW without having to give up gates at DAL in 2025, and there was a discussion regarding post-2024 plans for WN in the DFW/DAL market at viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1452713.
 
Western727
Posts: 2050
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:38 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:56 pm

jplatts wrote:
There is an article on WFAA's website (which can be found at https://www.wfaa.com/article/money/business/southwest-gary-kelly-transition-new-ceo-executive-chairman/287-d79a6984-a56e-48bf-8faf-920ea462a741) which said that Henry Harteveldt (the president of Atmosphere Research Group) wants WN to consider how to compete more in the Dallas/Fort Worth market. He had also said that WN's new CEO should consider serving airports in Tarrant County such as FTW or AFW to capture some of the traffic on the Fort Worth side of the Metroplex.

WN will be able to enter DFW, FTW, or AFW without having to give up gates at DAL in 2025, and there was a discussion regarding post-2024 plans for WN in the DFW/DAL market at viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1452713.


The idea of WN serving DAL and specifically AFW or FTW at the same time is an intriguing one. In any case, 2025 is going to be a very interesting year for WN in the Metroplex.

EDIT: clarity.
 
User avatar
Amwest2United
Posts: 294
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2006 11:36 am

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Tue Jul 27, 2021 2:33 am

Trying to locate a list of all ETOPS aircraft, does anyone know of a location? I think most MAX 8's are done, but not sure of tail numbers for the 738's.
 
SWADawg
Posts: 719
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:43 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:47 am

Amwest2United wrote:
Trying to locate a list of all ETOPS aircraft, does anyone know of a location? I think most MAX 8's are done, but not sure of tail numbers for the 738's.

8301–8327 I believe.
 
SXDFC
Posts: 2142
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 6:07 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Tue Jul 27, 2021 7:20 am

Amwest2United wrote:
Trying to locate a list of all ETOPS aircraft, does anyone know of a location? I think most MAX 8's are done, but not sure of tail numbers for the 738's.


737-800

8301-8329

737-8MAX

8701-8751

There’s many 87** tail numbers that will soon be ETOPS approved.
 
ScottB
Posts: 7553
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:59 pm

jplatts wrote:
WN will be able to enter DFW, FTW, or AFW without having to give up gates at DAL in 2025, and there was a discussion regarding post-2024 plans for WN in the DFW/DAL market at viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1452713.


I suspect that 2025 will likely see some movement to renegotiate the limits on DAL precisely because WN would have the option to add service at DFW/FTW/AFW/TKI. Perhaps connected to an agreement which would see WN commit to some token level of service at DFW. AA would probably get a few gates, DL would get a few gates, and supposedly everyone wins.
 
User avatar
Amwest2United
Posts: 294
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2006 11:36 am

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:10 pm

SXDFC wrote:
Amwest2United wrote:
Trying to locate a list of all ETOPS aircraft, does anyone know of a location? I think most MAX 8's are done, but not sure of tail numbers for the 738's.


737-800

8301-8329

737-8MAX

8701-8751

There’s many 87** tail numbers that will soon be ETOPS approved.


Many thanks
 
MDW22L31C
Posts: 262
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 7:03 am

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:06 pm

How are the Loads out of ORD.
 
jplatts
Posts: 4891
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:07 pm

MDW22L31C wrote:
How are the Loads out of ORD.


Here are posts (in the Chicago Aviation Thread) which list the load factors for WN flights out of ORD in April 2021:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1456061&start=400#p22879121
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1456061&start=400#p22879585
 
qantas330
Posts: 11
Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2014 9:39 am

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:06 pm

Recently had the pleasure of flying on a few of the WNmax aircraft - very nice indeed. Flying PHX-LAS all flights seem to find it difficult to maintain schedule which is a shame.
 
737Jason
Posts: 33
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2021 8:13 am

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:09 am

I happened to be scrolling through the southwest Media and happened to come across a photograph of a -700 with the heart logo on the bulkhead, but with the y137 seats. Why is this?


https://www.swamedia.com/photos/photo-c ... =Relevance
 
SXDFC
Posts: 2142
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 6:07 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:43 am

737Jason wrote:
I happened to be scrolling through the southwest Media and happened to come across a photograph of a -700 with the heart logo on the bulkhead, but with the y137 seats. Why is this?


https://www.swamedia.com/photos/photo-c ... =Relevance



All of the -700s were delivered with 137 seats.

Original/ Tan interior (137 Seats) : N700GS- N792SW - 1998-2001

Spirit Interior (137 Seats) : N793SW- N969WN- 2001-2012.

Evolve Interior (143 Seats): N935WN- All 700s -2012-2019

Evolve Blue (143 Seats): N910WN - All 700s 2016- Present.
 
jeffrey0032j
Posts: 1055
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:11 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:05 am

SXDFC wrote:
Amwest2United wrote:
Trying to locate a list of all ETOPS aircraft, does anyone know of a location? I think most MAX 8's are done, but not sure of tail numbers for the 738's.


737-800

8301-8329

737-8MAX

8701-8751

There’s many 87** tail numbers that will soon be ETOPS approved.

Not including 8751, there are 6 87xx left for approval based on the planes that have not done Hawaii yet:
8734, 8737-8739, 8742, 8745.
 
Wneast
Posts: 1022
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:37 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:54 pm

Does anybody know what’s up with the JFK slots from AA/B6 and if WN is getting them or did they submit a bid at all ?
 
wnflyguy
Posts: 2537
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:58 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Sat Aug 07, 2021 12:20 am

Wneast wrote:
Does anybody know what’s up with the JFK slots from AA/B6 and if WN is getting them or did they submit a bid at all ?


It’s definitely been quite lately on the rumors and speculation fronts. JFK I believe has a Covid Slot waver until October 1, 2021. So technically AA/B6 don’t have to sale the slots until after that date. I’m sure there not in a rush to sell them to there competition.

Enjoy or Don’t.
Flyguy
 
jplatts
Posts: 4891
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Sun Aug 15, 2021 12:40 am

Here are the number of passengers, number of seats, and load factors for the new WN nonstop routes in May 2021:
BNA-MYR - 3374 passengers, 4862 seats, 69.40% load factor
BNA-VPS - 14047 passengers, 22756 seats, 61.73% load factor
BWI-MYR - 4603 passengers, 7293 seats, 63.12% load factor
BWI-VPS - 4717 passengers, 7884 seats, 59.83% load factor
BZN-DEN - 1788 passengers, 2717 seats, 65.81% load factor
BZN-LAS - 1441 passengers, 2860 seats, 50.38% load factor
DAL-VPS - 9376 passengers, 12569 seats, 74.60% load factor
DEN-RIC - 5368 passengers, 6962 seats, 77.10% load factor
LAS-ORD - 3608 passengers, 4004 seats, 90.11% load factor
LAS-PSP - 2960 passengers, 4004 seats, 73.93% load factor
MDW-MYR - 2037 passengers, 2574 seats, 79.14% load factor
MIA-STL - 4145 passengers, 6578 seats, 63.01% load factor
 
jplatts
Posts: 4891
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Sun Aug 15, 2021 1:46 am

While WN carried fewer passengers out of most of the contiguous U.S. stations that were served by WN prior to the COVID-19 pandemic in May 2021 than it it did in May 2019, WN carried more passengers out of CHS, DEN, GRR, GSP, LGB, PNS, PWM, and RIC in May 2021 than in May 2019.

Here were the number of passengers WN carried out of CHS, DEN, GRR, GSP, LGB, PNS, PWM, and RIC in May 2021 vs. May 2019:
CHS - 64942 passengers in May 2019, 76695 passengers in May 2021, 18.10% increase from May 2019
DEN - 1570089 passengers in May 2019, 1670381 passengers in May 2021, 6.39% increase from May 2019
GSP - 17520 passengers in May 2019, 25785 passengers in May 2021, 47.17% increase from May 2019
GRR - 34468 passengers in May 2019, 38540 passengers in May 2021, 11.81% increase from May 2019
LGB - 97185 passengers in May 2019, 159572 passengers in May 2021, 64.19% increase from May 2019
PNS - 33252 passengers in May 2019, 61808 passengers in May 2021, 85.88% increase from May 2019
PWM - 21674 passengers in May 2019, 25546 passengers in May 2021, 17.86% increase from May 2019
RIC - 20864 passengers in May 2019, 30880 passengers in May 2021, 48.01% increase from May 2019
 
Wneast
Posts: 1022
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:37 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Mon Aug 16, 2021 12:33 am

Over on a thread about SRQ someone said WN would be adding new flight to there new destinations with ten planes coming alone in September anything hear anything ?
 
wnflyguy
Posts: 2537
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:58 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Mon Aug 16, 2021 1:02 am

Wneast wrote:
Over on a thread about SRQ someone said WN would be adding new flight to there new destinations with ten planes coming alone in September anything hear anything ?

There has been a lot of talk about making some Strong weekend only flying to Daily.
But I have also heard these 10 aircraft for September and then the other remaining aircraft still in storage are going to be returning to service by Mid November to help fix their horrible OTP and System recovery abilities during weather events.

Enjoy or don’t
Flyguy
 
Jshank83
Posts: 4511
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Mon Aug 16, 2021 5:17 am

Wneast wrote:
Over on a thread about SRQ someone said WN would be adding new flight to there new destinations with ten planes coming alone in September anything hear anything ?


Id be a little surprised if you see anything new. Almost, if not all the add back ins have just been extra frequencies on already schedule routes.
 
av8tiongeek
Posts: 167
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2020 10:23 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Mon Aug 16, 2021 12:38 pm

"Southwest Airlines Management notified the TWU Local 556 Executive Board and Scheduling Committee that they will be adding ten aircraft to the September 2021 schedule. The addition of the ten aircraft will add 720+ pairings to open time between September 6–30. The additional pairings will affect all bases. All these new pairings were built after primary bid lines were awarded but prior to secondary line building."

Portion of a message sent to flight attendants on the 12th.
 
lat41
Posts: 683
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 12:23 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:16 pm

B6BOSfan wrote:
Southwest has struggled over the last few years to really keep what it HAS been offering at BOS going. It seems like with every new schedule, flights are slowly chopped, or frequencies are cut from 3x a day to 2x a day or 1x a day -- or just weekly.

They have become basically a hub airline for BOS, and they don't even serve all of their hubs. MCO gets a once-weekly fight from BOS. DAL isn't served. DEN had flights chopped all summer -- and continues to have limited direct service for the fall/winter -- which then limits journeys you can make from there.

Then there's the lack of the ability to book seats, something that doesn't seem like a big deal in many parts of the country, but comes back as a frustration point in the more affluent northeast.

BOS has had the ability to take on Southwest expansion -- especially now with the lack of international traffic. There's no interest from the airline to expand service.

Like others have said, if somehow Southwest could make a B6/WN merger happen, you'd see customers being hemorrhaged to the likes of Delta, American and United.

Several years back PVD and MHT, where WN passengers were happy to pay a premium, got a big haircut in order to bolster the new BOS operation. (Gone were the PVD- DEN, LAS, PHX and frequencies to other cities). Southwest's premise was that the BOS area travelers would drop their allegiance to DL B6 and AA and beat a path to their door. Also it was assumed that the Southern NE pax. and those up North would follow Southwest to Boston. Neither happened. The competition hammered them, fares fell into the cellar and WN started trimming BOS. There were, however no "put-backs" at the other airports. Did some passengers migrate to Logan? Yes but not necessarily to Southwest. Many just found other service at their home airport. BOS shriveled up and PVD and up North at MHT, Southwest is a shell of what it used to be. WN has even withered at BDL, thought not affected by BOS very much. These phenomenon took place beforth the pandemic, incedently.
 
User avatar
LotsaRunway
Posts: 473
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 8:23 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Mon Aug 16, 2021 4:57 pm

lat41 wrote:
B6BOSfan wrote:
Southwest has struggled over the last few years to really keep what it HAS been offering at BOS going. It seems like with every new schedule, flights are slowly chopped, or frequencies are cut from 3x a day to 2x a day or 1x a day -- or just weekly.

They have become basically a hub airline for BOS, and they don't even serve all of their hubs. MCO gets a once-weekly fight from BOS. DAL isn't served. DEN had flights chopped all summer -- and continues to have limited direct service for the fall/winter -- which then limits journeys you can make from there.

Then there's the lack of the ability to book seats, something that doesn't seem like a big deal in many parts of the country, but comes back as a frustration point in the more affluent northeast.

BOS has had the ability to take on Southwest expansion -- especially now with the lack of international traffic. There's no interest from the airline to expand service.

Like others have said, if somehow Southwest could make a B6/WN merger happen, you'd see customers being hemorrhaged to the likes of Delta, American and United.

Several years back PVD and MHT, where WN passengers were happy to pay a premium, got a big haircut in order to bolster the new BOS operation. (Gone were the PVD- DEN, LAS, PHX and frequencies to other cities). Southwest's premise was that the BOS area travelers would drop their allegiance to DL B6 and AA and beat a path to their door. Also it was assumed that the Southern NE pax. and those up North would follow Southwest to Boston. Neither happened. The competition hammered them, fares fell into the cellar and WN started trimming BOS. There were, however no "put-backs" at the other airports. Did some passengers migrate to Logan? Yes but not necessarily to Southwest. Many just found other service at their home airport. BOS shriveled up and PVD and up North at MHT, Southwest is a shell of what it used to be. WN has even withered at BDL, thought not affected by BOS very much. These phenomenon took place beforth the pandemic, incedently.

The big tear-down occurred when mergers opened up gates at Logan and the Big Dig got completed. I fully understand why WN wanted to have a presence in Boston proper, but I don't understand why they cannibalized operations that were working to feed operations at a higher cost and more delay-prone facility with crushing competition. I'm sure it's in the number somewhere, but I can't help but to feel it was a misstep. WN quickly grew to the go-to airline in most of New England to a very middling operation with just OK fares. In my opinion, WN actually helped B6 growth by deflecting a bunch of their PVD and MHT passengers right onto their laps. The ULCCs are moving in to clean up the scraps.
 
wnflyguy
Posts: 2537
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:58 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Mon Aug 16, 2021 5:55 pm

LotsaRunway wrote:
lat41 wrote:
B6BOSfan wrote:
Southwest has struggled over the last few years to really keep what it HAS been offering at BOS going. It seems like with every new schedule, flights are slowly chopped, or frequencies are cut from 3x a day to 2x a day or 1x a day -- or just weekly.

They have become basically a hub airline for BOS, and they don't even serve all of their hubs. MCO gets a once-weekly fight from BOS. DAL isn't served. DEN had flights chopped all summer -- and continues to have limited direct service for the fall/winter -- which then limits journeys you can make from there.

Then there's the lack of the ability to book seats, something that doesn't seem like a big deal in many parts of the country, but comes back as a frustration point in the more affluent northeast.

BOS has had the ability to take on Southwest expansion -- especially now with the lack of international traffic. There's no interest from the airline to expand service.

Like others have said, if somehow Southwest could make a B6/WN merger happen, you'd see customers being hemorrhaged to the likes of Delta, American and United.

Several years back PVD and MHT, where WN passengers were happy to pay a premium, got a big haircut in order to bolster the new BOS operation. (Gone were the PVD- DEN, LAS, PHX and frequencies to other cities). Southwest's premise was that the BOS area travelers would drop their allegiance to DL B6 and AA and beat a path to their door. Also it was assumed that the Southern NE pax. and those up North would follow Southwest to Boston. Neither happened. The competition hammered them, fares fell into the cellar and WN started trimming BOS. There were, however no "put-backs" at the other airports. Did some passengers migrate to Logan? Yes but not necessarily to Southwest. Many just found other service at their home airport. BOS shriveled up and PVD and up North at MHT, Southwest is a shell of what it used to be. WN has even withered at BDL, thought not affected by BOS very much. These phenomenon took place beforth the pandemic, incedently.

The big tear-down occurred when mergers opened up gates at Logan and the Big Dig got completed. I fully understand why WN wanted to have a presence in Boston proper, but I don't understand why they cannibalized operations that were working to feed operations at a higher cost and more delay-prone facility with crushing competition. I'm sure it's in the number somewhere, but I can't help but to feel it was a misstep. WN quickly grew to the go-to airline in most of New England to a very middling operation with just OK fares. In my opinion, WN actually helped B6 growth by deflecting a bunch of their PVD and MHT passengers right onto their laps. The ULCCs are moving in to clean up the scraps.


Once the Big Dig was completed and JetBlue built up in BOS WN saw it’s Additional passenger catchments start tp dwindle thanks to lower prices at BOS. To remain competitive they had to enter BOS and scale MHT and PVD down to meet the smaller local demand.

Flyguy

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