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wnflyguy
Posts: 2523
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:58 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Sun Sep 05, 2021 4:07 pm

ibthebigd wrote:
Can the Max7 make it from DEN to Hawaii sounds like a stretch with the altitude.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Yes especially with WN plan to only have 150 seats vs 167 available WN type seating on the MAX7.
During the development of the MAX7 WN pushed hard for Boeing for a aircraft that could handle High altitude,Short field and Range performance all its destinations.
This aircraft will give WN the best flexibility to offer more destinations like DEN- Hawaii, BUR/SNA-Hawaii/ east coast.
MDW-Caribbean,South/Central America,BWI-South America and Western Europe(I don’t see that for years to come) without payload restrictions.


While the MAX8 is great the MAX7 offers more flexibility throughout its entire system. I honestly don’t see anymore MAX8 in WN future once the MAX7 started arriving. I think over the next 5-10 years until Boeing builds a brand new 737 replacement aircraft WN is going to to be only taking the MAX7.

Enjoy or Don’t
Flyguy
 
ericm2031
Posts: 1473
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:46 am

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Sun Sep 05, 2021 4:56 pm

wnflyguy wrote:
ibthebigd wrote:
Can the Max7 make it from DEN to Hawaii sounds like a stretch with the altitude.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Yes especially with WN plan to only have 150 seats vs 167 available WN type seating on the MAX7.
During the development of the MAX7 WN pushed hard for Boeing for a aircraft that could handle High altitude,Short field and Range performance all its destinations.
This aircraft will give WN the best flexibility to offer more destinations like DEN- Hawaii, BUR/SNA-Hawaii/ east coast.
MDW-Caribbean,South/Central America,BWI-South America and Western Europe(I don’t see that for years to come) without payload restrictions.


While the MAX8 is great the MAX7 offers more flexibility throughout its entire system. I honestly don’t see anymore MAX8 in WN future once the MAX7 started arriving. I think over the next 5-10 years until Boeing builds a brand new 737 replacement aircraft WN is going to to be only taking the MAX7.

Enjoy or Don’t
Flyguy


Do we know yet with the stretch of the MAX7, but also increased capacity, will seat pitch (and width) mimic that of the -700s or the -800/MAX8s? According to their site, the -700s have 31" and -800/MAX8 have 32" and width is 17" and 17.8" (I didn't realize there were different widths too).
 
georgiabill
Posts: 1282
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2003 11:53 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Sun Sep 05, 2021 5:00 pm

Is there a chance of WN restarting MHT-MDW at some time in the future? It was once served with up to 4 daily flights. I think the market could support 2x daily and perhaps add 1 daily to BNA or STL. I hope MHT-DEN returns as well as the covid spike ends and economy gets better.
 
timberwolf24
Posts: 544
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2001 8:38 am

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Sun Sep 05, 2021 5:06 pm

How is WN doing at ORD? Any interesting rumors for MDW or ORD?
 
ibthebigd
Posts: 449
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:12 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Sun Sep 05, 2021 5:08 pm

I just don't want Southwest to force everyone thru DEN I still want an option thru LAS or PHX especially in the winter.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 9991
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Sun Sep 05, 2021 5:19 pm

wnflyguy wrote:
While the MAX8 is great the MAX7 offers more flexibility throughout its entire system. I honestly don’t see anymore MAX8 in WN future once the MAX7 started arriving. I think over the next 5-10 years until Boeing builds a brand new 737 replacement aircraft WN is going to to be only taking the MAX7.


That goes against the upgauging strategy that WN has pursued for nine years, Delta for twelve, the upgauging in United Next, the upgauging that Spirit, Frontier and Allegiant have all done.

IMHO WN won't use many MAX7s for range - they'll use them to keep yields up where MAX8s are too big. And they'll keep taking MAX8s because of superior CASM which they can fill because of the 20-year evolution of going to busy airports. This isn't Grandpa's Southwest Airlines any more. WN isn't competitive in yields against DL/UA/AA yet it pays DL/UA/AA wages, so it needs to be competitive in other operating costs. If WN tries running -700s and MAX7s against Spirit or Frontier 321neos it's going to get eaten alive.

I boldly assert that WN will be operating MAX9s or 10s before the end of the decade.
 
jplatts
Posts: 4849
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Sun Sep 05, 2021 7:10 pm

timberwolf24 wrote:
How is WN doing at ORD? Any interesting rumors for MDW or ORD?


Here is a link to a post listing the load factors for WN routes out of ORD in May 2021:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1456061&start=450#p22916639

I would probably expect WN to add ORD-ATL/HOU/LAX nonstop service with ATL, HOU, and LAX being three of the top destinations traveled to from Chicago on WN that WN doesn't currently serve nonstop from ORD. It can also take over an hour to get to MDW or MKE from the northern or western Chicago suburbs (especially when there is rush hour traffic), whereas you can more easily get to ORD from the northern or western Chicago suburbs.

I had previously mentioned the possibility of WN re-adding MDW-GSP/TUL nonstop service as WN was getting decent load factors on both of these routes in Summer 2015. The resumption on WN MDW-GSP/TUL nonstop service would also provide easier access to more of the WN network from both GSP and TUL.

There are also a few other routes such as MDW-ISP/LIT/ROC/ICT that could be re-added by WN out of MDW.
 
pranav7478
Posts: 51
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:22 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Sun Sep 05, 2021 7:47 pm

ericm2031 wrote:
wnflyguy wrote:
ibthebigd wrote:
Can the Max7 make it from DEN to Hawaii sounds like a stretch with the altitude.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Yes especially with WN plan to only have 150 seats vs 167 available WN type seating on the MAX7.
During the development of the MAX7 WN pushed hard for Boeing for a aircraft that could handle High altitude,Short field and Range performance all its destinations.
This aircraft will give WN the best flexibility to offer more destinations like DEN- Hawaii, BUR/SNA-Hawaii/ east coast.
MDW-Caribbean,South/Central America,BWI-South America and Western Europe(I don’t see that for years to come) without payload restrictions.


While the MAX8 is great the MAX7 offers more flexibility throughout its entire system. I honestly don’t see anymore MAX8 in WN future once the MAX7 started arriving. I think over the next 5-10 years until Boeing builds a brand new 737 replacement aircraft WN is going to to be only taking the MAX7.

Enjoy or Don’t
Flyguy


Do we know yet with the stretch of the MAX7, but also increased capacity, will seat pitch (and width) mimic that of the -700s or the -800/MAX8s? According to their site, the -700s have 31" and -800/MAX8 have 32" and width is 17" and 17.8" (I didn't realize there were different widths too).

that is because the -700s have the old interior while the -800s and maxs have the new heart interior, which has slimmer seats and boeing sky interior, which allows for more space. i would expect the max7 to have similar seating to the -800/max8s rather than the existing -700s
 
Shakinthefat
Posts: 70
Joined: Thu May 07, 2020 6:56 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Sun Sep 05, 2021 10:58 pm

AMALH747430 wrote:
Looks like SWAPA just filed a lawsuit alleging labor law violations.

https://thehill.com/policy/transportati ... ic-changes

LUV is in the air. Times have changed.
 
jplatts
Posts: 4849
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Sun Sep 05, 2021 11:41 pm

wnflyguy wrote:
MDW-Caribbean,South/Central America,BWI-South America and Western Europe(I don’t see that for years to come) without payload restrictions.


WN already has nonstop service to MBJ and SJU in the Caribbean from MDW, and WN had previously served PUJ nonstop from MDW.

GCM, NAS, and PLS are closer to MDW than MBJ or SJU are. WN adding MDW-GCM/NAS/PLS nonstop service might be possibilities (even on a less-than-daily basis) with WN already serving other Caribbean destinations nonstop from MDW.
 
WN732
Posts: 1029
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:49 am

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Sun Sep 05, 2021 11:55 pm

Wneast wrote:
LotsaRunway wrote:
Assuming that the rumor is true and that WN will connect all domestic WN to DEN, one has to assume that it won’t all happen at once. Which ones are likely to be added first and which ones last. I’m going to say that there are a couple of locations that I think making the connection is a stretch. I’m also going to say that maybe “domestic” is going to be interpreted as lower 48, although I can easily see HNL and OGG being connected in the first wave.

My guess:
HNL, OGG, AMA, LBB and PVD first.

2nd: KOA, EUG, ISP, MHT, and maybe HRL, BLI, and DCA

Last, if ever: ITO, CRP, GSP, and maybe PWM. PWM is a tough call because it has good summer demand but it is already served by others. I don’t know if WN wants to get into a long thin route with seasonal demand and competition.

I’m surprised even at last if ever wouldn’t LIH be a lot higher then ITO ?


ITO hardly has traffic as it is. LIH has a much larger draw than ITO.
 
737Jason
Posts: 33
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2021 8:13 am

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Mon Sep 06, 2021 12:31 am

georgiabill wrote:
Is there a chance of WN restarting MHT-MDW at some time in the future? It was once served with up to 4 daily flights. I think the market could support 2x daily and perhaps add 1 daily to BNA or STL. I hope MHT-DEN returns as well as the covid spike ends and economy gets better.


MHT-MDW is still serviced, twice a day. I would also like to see BNA/STL, and MHT-DEN has to be on the horizon.
 
ASFlyer
Posts: 1884
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 1:25 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Mon Sep 06, 2021 12:43 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
wnflyguy wrote:
While the MAX8 is great the MAX7 offers more flexibility throughout its entire system. I honestly don’t see anymore MAX8 in WN future once the MAX7 started arriving. I think over the next 5-10 years until Boeing builds a brand new 737 replacement aircraft WN is going to to be only taking the MAX7.


That goes against the upgauging strategy that WN has pursued for nine years, Delta for twelve, the upgauging in United Next, the upgauging that Spirit, Frontier and Allegiant have all done.

IMHO WN won't use many MAX7s for range - they'll use them to keep yields up where MAX8s are too big. And they'll keep taking MAX8s because of superior CASM which they can fill because of the 20-year evolution of going to busy airports. This isn't Grandpa's Southwest Airlines any more. WN isn't competitive in yields against DL/UA/AA yet it pays DL/UA/AA wages, so it needs to be competitive in other operating costs. If WN tries running -700s and MAX7s against Spirit or Frontier 321neos it's going to get eaten alive.

I boldly assert that WN will be operating MAX9s or 10s before the end of the decade.


agree completely. Costs being so similar between a MAX7 and MAX8, why would WN want to fly fewer seats in a market like DEN-Hawaii where yields are not extremely great to begin with. United will trounce WN with widebodies from DEN, filling more seats and offering lower fares. WN NEEDS bigger planes to fly these longer distances in order to make money. I see WN continuing to buy bigger planes because the cost to operate them isn't significantly different than the smaller MAX planes - those extra seats are basically gravy.
 
swacle
Posts: 552
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2003 1:41 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Mon Sep 06, 2021 12:57 am

ASFlyer wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
wnflyguy wrote:
While the MAX8 is great the MAX7 offers more flexibility throughout its entire system. I honestly don’t see anymore MAX8 in WN future once the MAX7 started arriving. I think over the next 5-10 years until Boeing builds a brand new 737 replacement aircraft WN is going to to be only taking the MAX7.


That goes against the upgauging strategy that WN has pursued for nine years, Delta for twelve, the upgauging in United Next, the upgauging that Spirit, Frontier and Allegiant have all done.

IMHO WN won't use many MAX7s for range - they'll use them to keep yields up where MAX8s are too big. And they'll keep taking MAX8s because of superior CASM which they can fill because of the 20-year evolution of going to busy airports. This isn't Grandpa's Southwest Airlines any more. WN isn't competitive in yields against DL/UA/AA yet it pays DL/UA/AA wages, so it needs to be competitive in other operating costs. If WN tries running -700s and MAX7s against Spirit or Frontier 321neos it's going to get eaten alive.

I boldly assert that WN will be operating MAX9s or 10s before the end of the decade.


agree completely. Costs being so similar between a MAX7 and MAX8, why would WN want to fly fewer seats in a market like DEN-Hawaii where yields are not extremely great to begin with. United will trounce WN with widebodies from DEN, filling more seats and offering lower fares. WN NEEDS bigger planes to fly these longer distances in order to make money. I see WN continuing to buy bigger planes because the cost to operate them isn't significantly different than the smaller MAX planes - those extra seats are basically gravy.


Max 8 can't make It either direction without weight issues.
 
joeblow10
Posts: 656
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:58 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Mon Sep 06, 2021 1:04 am

The reality is WN runs too many thin markets to justify huge quantities of MAX 9s and 10s. The 8 is about the max right sized aircraft for most of their routes and even then… many justify only 7s/700s.

I’m not saying you won’t see a MAX 9/10 order - but in a system where they seem to freely interchange aircraft without regards to capacity (I.e. running a random one off 7M8 on AMA-LAS, but not on some transcon out of BWI), they would really have to figure out how to carve out a limited, specific network for larger planes.
 
Wneast
Posts: 1000
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:37 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Mon Sep 06, 2021 1:09 am

There is so many negative people about DEN-Hawaii on the Max 7 when it happens I think with DEN being there biggest station they won’t really get ousted by UA especially if they offer three or four daily to HNL and OGG they will be fine
 
Jshank83
Posts: 4504
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Mon Sep 06, 2021 1:22 am

Wneast wrote:
There is so many negative people about DEN-Hawaii on the Max 7 when it happens I think with DEN being there biggest station they won’t really get ousted by UA especially if they offer three or four daily to HNL and OGG they will be fine


DEN will be fine with Hawaii. They can push feed from the Midwest/east thru there that they don’t do on the west coast.
 
Wneast
Posts: 1000
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:37 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Mon Sep 06, 2021 1:36 am

Jshank83 wrote:
Wneast wrote:
There is so many negative people about DEN-Hawaii on the Max 7 when it happens I think with DEN being there biggest station they won’t really get ousted by UA especially if they offer three or four daily to HNL and OGG they will be fine


DEN will be fine with Hawaii. They can push feed from the Midwest/east thru there that they don’t do on the west coast.

That’s exactly what I was thinking especially if they offer red eyes to DEN
 
ASFlyer
Posts: 1884
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 1:25 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Mon Sep 06, 2021 1:45 am

swacle wrote:
ASFlyer wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

That goes against the upgauging strategy that WN has pursued for nine years, Delta for twelve, the upgauging in United Next, the upgauging that Spirit, Frontier and Allegiant have all done.

IMHO WN won't use many MAX7s for range - they'll use them to keep yields up where MAX8s are too big. And they'll keep taking MAX8s because of superior CASM which they can fill because of the 20-year evolution of going to busy airports. This isn't Grandpa's Southwest Airlines any more. WN isn't competitive in yields against DL/UA/AA yet it pays DL/UA/AA wages, so it needs to be competitive in other operating costs. If WN tries running -700s and MAX7s against Spirit or Frontier 321neos it's going to get eaten alive.

I boldly assert that WN will be operating MAX9s or 10s before the end of the decade.


agree completely. Costs being so similar between a MAX7 and MAX8, why would WN want to fly fewer seats in a market like DEN-Hawaii where yields are not extremely great to begin with. United will trounce WN with widebodies from DEN, filling more seats and offering lower fares. WN NEEDS bigger planes to fly these longer distances in order to make money. I see WN continuing to buy bigger planes because the cost to operate them isn't significantly different than the smaller MAX planes - those extra seats are basically gravy.


Max 8 can't make It either direction without weight issues.


Right, I meant to include that I knew that - but throwing a -700 on a route where the competition is competing with planes that are twice as big and where yields aren't that high to begin with is a recipe for failure. United can drop those fares and compete way more effectively on this route vs a 737-700. Not saying it won't ever happen, it just doesn't seem like a great idea. I imagine WN is looking at bigger MAX planes that are coming down the pipeline (MAX10?) to address this issue.
 
DaCubbyBearBar
Posts: 368
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:31 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Mon Sep 06, 2021 1:07 pm

ASFlyer wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
wnflyguy wrote:
While the MAX8 is great the MAX7 offers more flexibility throughout its entire system. I honestly don’t see anymore MAX8 in WN future once the MAX7 started arriving. I think over the next 5-10 years until Boeing builds a brand new 737 replacement aircraft WN is going to to be only taking the MAX7.


That goes against the upgauging strategy that WN has pursued for nine years, Delta for twelve, the upgauging in United Next, the upgauging that Spirit, Frontier and Allegiant have all done.

IMHO WN won't use many MAX7s for range - they'll use them to keep yields up where MAX8s are too big. And they'll keep taking MAX8s because of superior CASM which they can fill because of the 20-year evolution of going to busy airports. This isn't Grandpa's Southwest Airlines any more. WN isn't competitive in yields against DL/UA/AA yet it pays DL/UA/AA wages, so it needs to be competitive in other operating costs. If WN tries running -700s and MAX7s against Spirit or Frontier 321neos it's going to get eaten alive.

I boldly assert that WN will be operating MAX9s or 10s before the end of the decade.


agree completely. Costs being so similar between a MAX7 and MAX8, why would WN want to fly fewer seats in a market like DEN-Hawaii where yields are not extremely great to begin with. United will trounce WN with widebodies from DEN, filling more seats and offering lower fares. WN NEEDS bigger planes to fly these longer distances in order to make money. I see WN continuing to buy bigger planes because the cost to operate them isn't significantly different than the smaller MAX planes - those extra seats are basically gravy.

SWA is NOT buying bigger planes. Gary Kelley has put all of SWA’s future into the MAX7. AND that plane is not even certified by the FAA yet……
 
tphuang
Posts: 6637
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Mon Sep 06, 2021 1:56 pm

There are many routes where 737-700 is competing against only regional jets. Max7 is probably too many seats for those high frequency markets. Max8 is way too many seats. Wn still has plenty of need for max7.
 
asteriskceo
Posts: 515
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:42 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:08 pm

WN needs something smaller than the MAX-7. Even the -700 is too big for some markets, and its alleged replacement (MAX-7) which is a stretch of the -700, is even more problematic for said markets.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
orlandocfi
Posts: 152
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:53 am

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:20 pm

DaCubbyBearBar wrote:
ASFlyer wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

That goes against the upgauging strategy that WN has pursued for nine years, Delta for twelve, the upgauging in United Next, the upgauging that Spirit, Frontier and Allegiant have all done.

IMHO WN won't use many MAX7s for range - they'll use them to keep yields up where MAX8s are too big. And they'll keep taking MAX8s because of superior CASM which they can fill because of the 20-year evolution of going to busy airports. This isn't Grandpa's Southwest Airlines any more. WN isn't competitive in yields against DL/UA/AA yet it pays DL/UA/AA wages, so it needs to be competitive in other operating costs. If WN tries running -700s and MAX7s against Spirit or Frontier 321neos it's going to get eaten alive.

I boldly assert that WN will be operating MAX9s or 10s before the end of the decade.


agree completely. Costs being so similar between a MAX7 and MAX8, why would WN want to fly fewer seats in a market like DEN-Hawaii where yields are not extremely great to begin with. United will trounce WN with widebodies from DEN, filling more seats and offering lower fares. WN NEEDS bigger planes to fly these longer distances in order to make money. I see WN continuing to buy bigger planes because the cost to operate them isn't significantly different than the smaller MAX planes - those extra seats are basically gravy.

SWA is NOT buying bigger planes. Gary Kelley has put all of SWA’s future into the MAX7. AND that plane is not even certified by the FAA yet……


Gary Kelly will be gone soon. Bob Jordan will be a transitional leader to be followed by a transformational leader who *will* order larger planes. WN is going up against the big boys now and larger capacity aircraft will be essential to remain competitive.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 10963
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:40 pm

orlandocfi wrote:
Gary Kelly will be gone soon. Bob Jordan will be a transitional leader to be followed by a transformational leader who *will* order larger planes. WN is going up against the big boys now and larger capacity aircraft will be essential to remain competitive.

Which big boys are they going to be going up against that they have not been doing for the last 10 - 20 years, or do you mean going into more major airports, they recently did MIA but left EWR, so.....
 
orlandocfi
Posts: 152
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:53 am

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Mon Sep 06, 2021 4:13 pm

par13del wrote:
orlandocfi wrote:
Gary Kelly will be gone soon. Bob Jordan will be a transitional leader to be followed by a transformational leader who *will* order larger planes. WN is going up against the big boys now and larger capacity aircraft will be essential to remain competitive.

Which big boys are they going to be going up against that they have not been doing for the last 10 - 20 years, or do you mean going into more major airports, they recently did MIA but left EWR, so.....


You answered your own question, so…
yes, those big boys in their big boy fortress hubs.
DFW showdown, coming soon to a theatre near you…
 
AMALH747430
Posts: 264
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 9:29 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Mon Sep 06, 2021 4:23 pm

WN rand DAL-AMA-DEN back during phase 1 of the loosening of the Wright Amendment. When the perimeter was completely replaced with the gate cap, WN discontinued the AMA-DEN portion and dropped down to only 4 AMA-DAL flights (plus the one AMA-LAS flight) per day. It always surprised me that WN didn’t keep at least one AMA-DEN as the connectivity through DEN will get you places that DAL won’t. At one point the only way for me to get to RDU from AMA was to go through LAS. DEN offers markets that DAL doesn’t with minimal backtracking from AMA as DEN is roughly the same distance from AMA as DAL. Prior to COVID, WN announced AMA-HOU daily which was another long overdue add.

It really surprised me that WN never tried to connect AMA to those two “mega cites” after DAL flights were curtailed due to the gate cap.

LotsaRunway wrote:
Assuming that the rumor is true and that WN will connect all domestic WN to DEN, one has to assume that it won’t all happen at once. Which ones are likely to be added first and which ones last. I’m going to say that there are a couple of locations that I think making the connection is a stretch. I’m also going to say that maybe “domestic” is going to be interpreted as lower 48, although I can easily see HNL and OGG being connected in the first wave.

My guess:
HNL, OGG, AMA, LBB and PVD first.

2nd: KOA, EUG, ISP, MHT, and maybe HRL, BLI, and DCA

Last, if ever: ITO, CRP, GSP, and maybe PWM. PWM is a tough call because it has good summer demand but it is already served by others. I don’t know if WN wants to get into a long thin route with seasonal demand and competition.
 
User avatar
barney captain
Posts: 2444
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 5:47 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:46 pm

ASFlyer wrote:
swacle wrote:
ASFlyer wrote:

agree completely. Costs being so similar between a MAX7 and MAX8, why would WN want to fly fewer seats in a market like DEN-Hawaii where yields are not extremely great to begin with. United will trounce WN with widebodies from DEN, filling more seats and offering lower fares. WN NEEDS bigger planes to fly these longer distances in order to make money. I see WN continuing to buy bigger planes because the cost to operate them isn't significantly different than the smaller MAX planes - those extra seats are basically gravy.


Max 8 can't make It either direction without weight issues.


Right, I meant to include that I knew that - but throwing a -700 on a route where the competition is competing with planes that are twice as big and where yields aren't that high to begin with is a recipe for failure. United can drop those fares and compete way more effectively on this route vs a 737-700. Not saying it won't ever happen, it just doesn't seem like a great idea. I imagine WN is looking at bigger MAX planes that are coming down the pipeline (MAX10?) to address this issue.


If the MAX8 can't make DEN-HNL, then the 10 certainly can't. The MAX 7 (not 737-700) is the aircraft made for the job, and will do just fine.
 
737MAX7
Posts: 224
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:26 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:54 pm

pranav7478 wrote:
ericm2031 wrote:
wnflyguy wrote:
Yes especially with WN plan to only have 150 seats vs 167 available WN type seating on the MAX7.
During the development of the MAX7 WN pushed hard for Boeing for a aircraft that could handle High altitude,Short field and Range performance all its destinations.
This aircraft will give WN the best flexibility to offer more destinations like DEN- Hawaii, BUR/SNA-Hawaii/ east coast.
MDW-Caribbean,South/Central America,BWI-South America and Western Europe(I don’t see that for years to come) without payload restrictions.


While the MAX8 is great the MAX7 offers more flexibility throughout its entire system. I honestly don’t see anymore MAX8 in WN future once the MAX7 started arriving. I think over the next 5-10 years until Boeing builds a brand new 737 replacement aircraft WN is going to to be only taking the MAX7.

Enjoy or Don’t
Flyguy


Do we know yet with the stretch of the MAX7, but also increased capacity, will seat pitch (and width) mimic that of the -700s or the -800/MAX8s? According to their site, the -700s have 31" and -800/MAX8 have 32" and width is 17" and 17.8" (I didn't realize there were different widths too).

that is because the -700s have the old interior while the -800s and maxs have the new heart interior, which has slimmer seats and boeing sky interior, which allows for more space. i would expect the max7 to have similar seating to the -800/max8s rather than the existing -700s

The MAX 7 will have 150 seats with us at WN. 150 seats also saves having to pay a 4th flight attendant.
 
ASFlyer
Posts: 1884
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 1:25 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Tue Sep 07, 2021 12:34 am

barney captain wrote:
ASFlyer wrote:
swacle wrote:

Max 8 can't make It either direction without weight issues.


Right, I meant to include that I knew that - but throwing a -700 on a route where the competition is competing with planes that are twice as big and where yields aren't that high to begin with is a recipe for failure. United can drop those fares and compete way more effectively on this route vs a 737-700. Not saying it won't ever happen, it just doesn't seem like a great idea. I imagine WN is looking at bigger MAX planes that are coming down the pipeline (MAX10?) to address this issue.


If the MAX8 can't make DEN-HNL, then the 10 certainly can't. The MAX 7 (not 737-700) is the aircraft made for the job, and will do just fine.


my point isn't whether the plane can make it. The MAX7 may well be able to fly long distances such as this. The question was whether WN would be at a cost disadvantage using a MAX7 on such a route given the low number of seats vs a 777 or 767 that UA would most likely be using. Since they haven't announced flights from DEN at this point, I guess we can only wait and see what happens.
 
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par13del
Posts: 10963
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Tue Sep 07, 2021 1:59 am

ASFlyer wrote:
my point isn't whether the plane can make it. The MAX7 may well be able to fly long distances such as this. The question was whether WN would be at a cost disadvantage using a MAX7 on such a route given the low number of seats vs a 777 or 767 that UA would most likely be using. Since they haven't announced flights from DEN at this point, I guess we can only wait and see what happens.

So those widebody a/c with all their added cost will still allow the major carriers to undercut WN on price?
 
ScottB
Posts: 7533
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:22 am

ASFlyer wrote:
my point isn't whether the plane can make it. The MAX7 may well be able to fly long distances such as this. The question was whether WN would be at a cost disadvantage using a MAX7 on such a route given the low number of seats vs a 777 or 767 that UA would most likely be using. Since they haven't announced flights from DEN at this point, I guess we can only wait and see what happens.


I'm not sure why you think 767s and 777s have lower operating costs per seat than a MAX 7 or A32X neo for that matter. The MAX 7 is going to offer a lot fewer seats, but the trip fuel burn is in the neighborhood of one-third that of the 777. If widebodies were the magic bullet to compete with WN on price, we'd see many more of them in the domestic market.

LotsaRunway wrote:
Assuming that the rumor is true and that WN will connect all domestic WN to DEN, one has to assume that it won’t all happen at once. Which ones are likely to be added first and which ones last. I’m going to say that there are a couple of locations that I think making the connection is a stretch. I’m also going to say that maybe “domestic” is going to be interpreted as lower 48, although I can easily see HNL and OGG being connected in the first wave.


WN isn't going to fly DEN-DCA unless Congress creates more perimeter exemptions or they buy F9. They're not going to fly DEN-ITO but they will connect DEN to their other Hawaii stations with the MAX 7. If ITO gets a mainland flight, it'll be to one of LAX/OAK/LAS.
 
ASFlyer
Posts: 1884
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 1:25 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Tue Sep 07, 2021 4:08 am

ScottB wrote:
ASFlyer wrote:
my point isn't whether the plane can make it. The MAX7 may well be able to fly long distances such as this. The question was whether WN would be at a cost disadvantage using a MAX7 on such a route given the low number of seats vs a 777 or 767 that UA would most likely be using. Since they haven't announced flights from DEN at this point, I guess we can only wait and see what happens.


I'm not sure why you think 767s and 777s have lower operating costs per seat than a MAX 7 or A32X neo for that matter. The MAX 7 is going to offer a lot fewer seats, but the trip fuel burn is in the neighborhood of one-third that of the 777. If widebodies were the magic bullet to compete with WN on price, we'd see many more of them in the domestic market.


yeah, we'll see. I realize the costs to operate a 787, 777 or a 767 are higher than that of a MAX. That's obvious. They also carry significantly more passengers to cover the costs. You don't see a lot of widebodies operating domestically because airlines compete hard on schedule. They put smaller planes on routes with higher demand so they can offer more frequency. I'm assuming WN isn't going to go with high frequency between DEN and HNL. If WN puts 3 737 MAX7's on DEN-HNL, UA will no doubt match them with bigger planes. I just don't see WN winning that battle. Nobody knows til it happens.
 
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ADent
Posts: 1214
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:11 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Tue Sep 07, 2021 5:32 pm

DEN-HI has been 2x 777A and 4x 757-200 lately (well until the 777As were grounded - but it sounds like they will be back).

The MAX7 s/b competitive with the 757s.

Until the 757s are retired and replaced by A321NEO XLR on the route WN s/b fine.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 4504
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Tue Sep 07, 2021 6:02 pm

ASFlyer wrote:
ScottB wrote:
ASFlyer wrote:
my point isn't whether the plane can make it. The MAX7 may well be able to fly long distances such as this. The question was whether WN would be at a cost disadvantage using a MAX7 on such a route given the low number of seats vs a 777 or 767 that UA would most likely be using. Since they haven't announced flights from DEN at this point, I guess we can only wait and see what happens.


I'm not sure why you think 767s and 777s have lower operating costs per seat than a MAX 7 or A32X neo for that matter. The MAX 7 is going to offer a lot fewer seats, but the trip fuel burn is in the neighborhood of one-third that of the 777. If widebodies were the magic bullet to compete with WN on price, we'd see many more of them in the domestic market.


yeah, we'll see. I realize the costs to operate a 787, 777 or a 767 are higher than that of a MAX. That's obvious. They also carry significantly more passengers to cover the costs. You don't see a lot of widebodies operating domestically because airlines compete hard on schedule. They put smaller planes on routes with higher demand so they can offer more frequency. I'm assuming WN isn't going to go with high frequency between DEN and HNL. If WN puts 3 737 MAX7's on DEN-HNL, UA will no doubt match them with bigger planes. I just don't see WN winning that battle. Nobody knows til it happens.


After reading thru all these replies I am trying to figure out why they both can't succeed? Does there need to be a "winner". Some people like WN, some like UA. There is enough to go around. I can't see one pricing that much different than the other one so they should both be fine. Frequency will match demand for each.
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4705
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Tue Sep 07, 2021 6:12 pm

UA handles a lot of cargo to and from Hawaii that WN will be unable to carry. It helps to offset the increased cost of the wide bodies. When the high capacity 200s return UA can dump as much capacity as necessary at 364 seats at a time.
 
ASFlyer
Posts: 1884
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 1:25 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Tue Sep 07, 2021 6:59 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
ASFlyer wrote:
ScottB wrote:

I'm not sure why you think 767s and 777s have lower operating costs per seat than a MAX 7 or A32X neo for that matter. The MAX 7 is going to offer a lot fewer seats, but the trip fuel burn is in the neighborhood of one-third that of the 777. If widebodies were the magic bullet to compete with WN on price, we'd see many more of them in the domestic market.


yeah, we'll see. I realize the costs to operate a 787, 777 or a 767 are higher than that of a MAX. That's obvious. They also carry significantly more passengers to cover the costs. You don't see a lot of widebodies operating domestically because airlines compete hard on schedule. They put smaller planes on routes with higher demand so they can offer more frequency. I'm assuming WN isn't going to go with high frequency between DEN and HNL. If WN puts 3 737 MAX7's on DEN-HNL, UA will no doubt match them with bigger planes. I just don't see WN winning that battle. Nobody knows til it happens.


After reading thru all these replies I am trying to figure out why they both can't succeed? Does there need to be a "winner". Some people like WN, some like UA. There is enough to go around. I can't see one pricing that much different than the other one so they should both be fine. Frequency will match demand for each.


entirely possible. There doesn't have to be "a winner" - Maybe there's room for two airlines flying multiple flights daily from DEN to Hawaii.
 
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barney captain
Posts: 2444
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 5:47 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Tue Sep 07, 2021 7:14 pm

When HI was first announced on WN, people were calling foul because there was no way to connect from anywhere east of the Sierra's, DEN-HI will connect the entire CONUS. And some are still calling foul. :roll:
 
O23
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2020 2:43 am

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Tue Sep 07, 2021 8:45 pm

So does anyone have any idea of when the first possible route announcements may be?
 
planecane
Posts: 1726
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:58 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Wed Sep 08, 2021 1:13 am

ericm2031 wrote:

Do we know yet with the stretch of the MAX7, but also increased capacity, will seat pitch (and width) mimic that of the -700s or the -800/MAX8s? According to their site, the -700s have 31" and -800/MAX8 have 32" and width is 17" and 17.8" (I didn't realize there were different widths too).


When the MAX7 was launched, WN said it would have the same pitch as the MAX8/-800 at 150 seats.
 
iAvgeek737
Posts: 90
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:23 am

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Wed Sep 08, 2021 1:38 am

orlandocfi wrote:
par13del wrote:
orlandocfi wrote:
Gary Kelly will be gone soon. Bob Jordan will be a transitional leader to be followed by a transformational leader who *will* order larger planes. WN is going up against the big boys now and larger capacity aircraft will be essential to remain competitive.

Which big boys are they going to be going up against that they have not been doing for the last 10 - 20 years, or do you mean going into more major airports, they recently did MIA but left EWR, so.....


You answered your own question, so…
yes, those big boys in their big boy fortress hubs.
DFW showdown, coming soon to a theatre near you…


Malice in Dallas Part 2: The Battle of Ft Worth
 
Wneast
Posts: 1000
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:37 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Wed Sep 08, 2021 2:41 am

O23 wrote:
So does anyone have any idea of when the first possible route announcements may be?

For what routes ?
 
O23
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2020 2:43 am

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Wed Sep 08, 2021 5:26 pm

Wneast wrote:
O23 wrote:
So does anyone have any idea of when the first possible route announcements may be?

For what routes ?


The Denver ones
 
Jshank83
Posts: 4504
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Wed Sep 08, 2021 6:36 pm

O23 wrote:
Wneast wrote:
O23 wrote:
So does anyone have any idea of when the first possible route announcements may be?

For what routes ?


The Denver ones


There is a schedule extension next week. So I am sure there is a chance of announcements then.
 
737Jason
Posts: 33
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2021 8:13 am

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Wed Sep 08, 2021 9:05 pm

How many routes could we potentially see with this schedule extension?
 
Wneast
Posts: 1000
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:37 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Wed Sep 08, 2021 9:07 pm

737Jason wrote:
How many routes could we potentially see with this schedule extension?

Who knows we might just see cuts but probably not
 
User avatar
b777900
Posts: 451
Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:27 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Wed Sep 08, 2021 9:16 pm

any one else here WN is looking into the A220?
 
SWADawg
Posts: 717
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:43 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Wed Sep 08, 2021 9:25 pm

b777900 wrote:
any one else here WN is looking into the A220?

I haven’t herd anything. Nothing to see hear.
 
wnflyguy
Posts: 2523
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:58 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Wed Sep 08, 2021 11:34 pm

b777900 wrote:
any one else here WN is looking into the A220?

No They lost out to the MAX7 order.
Switching topics.
Still a strong Buzz about DEN now just getting EGE and DRO for the next Rocky Mountain Ski season.
CUN,MBJ and SJD all will likely see quite an increase in Saturday only seasonal flying with the addition of 4 more international gateways.

Hawaii increases have been pushed to Summer time 2022.
Boeing certification delays on the MAX7 have pushed WN planned ETOPS certification from February to Mid March.
According to sources.

New markets with daily service are expected from FAT and EUG.
PSP sounds like it will also see some Seasonal Saturday only flying coming this January.

Enjoy or Don’t
Flyguy
 
bob75013
Posts: 1092
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Wed Sep 08, 2021 11:55 pm

b777900 wrote:
any one else here WN is looking into the A220?


Stop with the A220 at Southwest nonsense. the topic seems to come up every three months or so..

Gary Kelly basical ly said "hell no" three months ago

c

"We're not thinking about another airplane at all," Kelly told the Dallas Morning News. Southwest had reportedly been considering the Airbus (EADSY) A220 before deciding on the Boeing 737 Max jet in March."
 
Wneast
Posts: 1000
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:37 pm

Re: Southwest Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Thu Sep 09, 2021 2:50 am

wnflyguy wrote:
b777900 wrote:
any one else here WN is looking into the A220?

No They lost out to the MAX7 order.
Switching topics.
Still a strong Buzz about DEN now just getting EGE and DRO for the next Rocky Mountain Ski season.
CUN,MBJ and SJD all will likely see quite an increase in Saturday only seasonal flying with the addition of 4 more international gateways.

Hawaii increases have been pushed to Summer time 2022.
Boeing certification delays on the MAX7 have pushed WN planned ETOPS certification from February to Mid March.
According to sources.

New markets with daily service are expected from FAT and EUG.
PSP sounds like it will also see some Seasonal Saturday only flying coming this January.

Enjoy or Don’t
Flyguy

What new INT gate ways ? FAT and EUG I’m guessing PHX. Seasonal Saturday to PSP what else could they add ?

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