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mercure1 wrote:Brexit is causing some interesting problems for customers.
For example now citizens from multiple nations(list below) that travel to/from UK to require to obtain reintroduced airport transit visa for airports in EU.
This seem to be impacting AF/KL the most on routes to Africa (such as Nigeria) that historically saw strong demand from the UK.
(Afghanistan, Angola, Bangladesh, Cameroon, Central Africa Republic, Democratic Republic of Congo, Ivory Coast, Cuba, Dominican Republic, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Ghana, Guinea, Haiti, Iran, Iraq, Mali, Mauritania, Nigeria, Pakistan, Philippines, Russia, Senegal, Syria, Palestinians, Sierra Leone, Somalia, Sudan, South Sudan, and Sri Lanka.)
Blerg wrote:mercure1 wrote:Brexit is causing some interesting problems for customers.
For example now citizens from multiple nations(list below) that travel to/from UK to require to obtain reintroduced airport transit visa for airports in EU.
This seem to be impacting AF/KL the most on routes to Africa (such as Nigeria) that historically saw strong demand from the UK.
(Afghanistan, Angola, Bangladesh, Cameroon, Central Africa Republic, Democratic Republic of Congo, Ivory Coast, Cuba, Dominican Republic, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Ghana, Guinea, Haiti, Iran, Iraq, Mali, Mauritania, Nigeria, Pakistan, Philippines, Russia, Senegal, Syria, Palestinians, Sierra Leone, Somalia, Sudan, South Sudan, and Sri Lanka.)
How does one get the airport visa? Also what is the airport visa exactly? Why do they need one if they are just transiting at an EU airport like AMS or CDG?
FlyingHonu001 wrote:Blerg wrote:mercure1 wrote:Brexit is causing some interesting problems for customers.
For example now citizens from multiple nations(list below) that travel to/from UK to require to obtain reintroduced airport transit visa for airports in EU.
This seem to be impacting AF/KL the most on routes to Africa (such as Nigeria) that historically saw strong demand from the UK.
(Afghanistan, Angola, Bangladesh, Cameroon, Central Africa Republic, Democratic Republic of Congo, Ivory Coast, Cuba, Dominican Republic, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Ghana, Guinea, Haiti, Iran, Iraq, Mali, Mauritania, Nigeria, Pakistan, Philippines, Russia, Senegal, Syria, Palestinians, Sierra Leone, Somalia, Sudan, South Sudan, and Sri Lanka.)
How does one get the airport visa? Also what is the airport visa exactly? Why do they need one if they are just transiting at an EU airport like AMS or CDG?
Usually through a consular service or embassy.
Anyone from above using AMS as point of transfer i.e. for any non-Schengen/UK destination are required to obtain such a visa in accordance to local law and regulations, which still applies even in transit areas within airport terminals
pythoniels wrote:Why would you need a transit visa for AMS if your route was lets say LHR-AMS-BKK?
You’re not entering the Schengen zone, and thus there’s no passport control?
mercure1 wrote:After months of discussions, the negotiations concerning the restructuring plan of Hop! is opposed by unions.
The main pilots' union, SNPL has already announced its refusal to sign the plan, which targets 317 out of 747 job cuts in cockpits, 286 for cabin crew and 404 for ground personnel. Refusal will not prevent management from submitting its plan to the Direccte (labour directorate) at the beginning of January, for the start of implementation at the end of January.
https://www.lesechos.fr/industrie-servi ... op-1276076
...According to our information, the 2021 budget of the French company expects an operating loss of 2 billion euros. In February, the presentation of Air France-KLM's 2020 results will show an operating loss of 3.6 billion euros for Air France. Air France does not expect a recovery before next summer and forecasts a seat supply 40% lower than in 2019. The company expects traffic to be half as high as in 2019...
mercure1 wrote:From what I gather France is speaking about nationalizing AF which is one of the wholly-owned subsidiaries of the group. How this is structured, I am not sure, but seems French state is focused on the French brands, not of the larger group.
And yes consolidation of functions should be a strong desire at the group level. As we have spoken about there is terrible duplication of many functions across airlines that should be combined and gain cost efficiencies. There is no better time to do it than now in the midst of a disaster.
mercure1 wrote:And yes consolidation of functions should be a strong desire at the group level. As we have spoken about there is terrible duplication of many functions across airlines that should be combined and gain cost efficiencies. There is no better time to do it than now in the midst of a disaster.
mercure1 wrote:And yes consolidation of functions should be a strong desire at the group level. As we have spoken about there is terrible duplication of many functions across airlines that should be combined and gain cost efficiencies. There is no better time to do it than now in the midst of a disaster.
Jetty wrote:mercure1 wrote:And yes consolidation of functions should be a strong desire at the group level. As we have spoken about there is terrible duplication of many functions across airlines that should be combined and gain cost efficiencies. There is no better time to do it than now in the midst of a disaster.
Yes and no. With this disaster the Dutch state invested billions in KL, and possibly billions more to come. The Dutch government can't defend spending such amounts of money on a company that's about to be centralized in Paris.
Angus Clarke, chief commercial officer at Air France—a major 777 operator—said at the CAPA Live summit in December that the A350-1000 will be the largest aircraft the airline plans to operate in the future.
LAXintl wrote:Jetty wrote:mercure1 wrote:And yes consolidation of functions should be a strong desire at the group level. As we have spoken about there is terrible duplication of many functions across airlines that should be combined and gain cost efficiencies. There is no better time to do it than now in the midst of a disaster.
Yes and no. With this disaster the Dutch state invested billions in KL, and possibly billions more to come. The Dutch government can't defend spending such amounts of money on a company that's about to be centralized in Paris.
But duplication must certainly cost many millions - hundred million annually.
If the Dutch want a healthy airline, and good return on their investment, things should change.
In my dealings with AFKL, its indeed very much like dealing with two airlines, not a single entity as their corporate structure would indicate. This largely defeats the purpose of their "merger".
Heck Lufthansa Group, where the companies are far more separate on paper, operate much more aligned from back-office support functions, to purchasing, to ground handling, etc
Not everything would end up in France, but suspect AF has the capacity to absorb the KL workload easier than KL taking on duties from a larger AF in many areas.
And its not all human. Heck, why do the airlines run so many different IT systems still nearly after 17 from their merger? They have clearly been allowed to do their own things without regard for the bigger group picture for too long.
xwb565 wrote:Perhaps not the right time for fleet talk but nonetheless...
https://aviationweek.com/aerospace/prob ... challengesAngus Clarke, chief commercial officer at Air France—a major 777 operator—said at the CAPA Live summit in December that the A350-1000 will be the largest aircraft the airline plans to operate in the future.
jbs2886 wrote:xwb565 wrote:Perhaps not the right time for fleet talk but nonetheless...
https://aviationweek.com/aerospace/prob ... challengesAngus Clarke, chief commercial officer at Air France—a major 777 operator—said at the CAPA Live summit in December that the A350-1000 will be the largest aircraft the airline plans to operate in the future.
There is a lot of questionability in that statement. Mostly that Air France has no current (public) plans to operate the A350-1000. Pretty shocking this journalist didn't even pick up on that fact.
VSMUT wrote:Did KLM just remove the free cup of water from the snack box on short haul flights? It was missing on my last 3 flights.
VSMUT wrote:
There is a lot of questionability in that statement. Mostly that Air France has no current (public) plans to operate the A350-1000. Pretty shocking this journalist didn't even pick up on that fact.
They posted seat layouts for various A350-1000 versions last year.
FlyingHonu001 wrote:VSMUT wrote:Did KLM just remove the free cup of water from the snack box on short haul flights? It was missing on my last 3 flights.
Yes, they are. Catering division is indeed streamlining their productline. You can expect noticable changes, for example C-class catering offerings both on European shorthaul and Cityhopper flights are going to be practically the same
PM wrote:VSMUT wrote:
There is a lot of questionability in that statement. Mostly that Air France has no current (public) plans to operate the A350-1000. Pretty shocking this journalist didn't even pick up on that fact.
They posted seat layouts for various A350-1000 versions last year.
Do we have any idea if these are likely to be new orders or conversions from -900 orders?
VSMUT wrote:FlyingHonu001 wrote:VSMUT wrote:Did KLM just remove the free cup of water from the snack box on short haul flights? It was missing on my last 3 flights.
Yes, they are. Catering division is indeed streamlining their productline. You can expect noticable changes, for example C-class catering offerings both on European shorthaul and Cityhopper flights are going to be practically the same
Interesting, does that mean cardboard box business salads for mainline, or will Cityhopper be upgrading? How does KLM differ from Cityhopper in Economy, I haven't noticed any difference there before?PM wrote:VSMUT wrote:
There is a lot of questionability in that statement. Mostly that Air France has no current (public) plans to operate the A350-1000. Pretty shocking this journalist didn't even pick up on that fact.
They posted seat layouts for various A350-1000 versions last year.
Do we have any idea if these are likely to be new orders or conversions from -900 orders?
They need to order more aircraft. Once the 777-200ER fleet is retired, assuming a one-for-one basis, they will still have 13 A350-900 orders outstanding. They have a fleet of over 40 777-300ER's.
VSMUT wrote:PM wrote:VSMUT wrote:
There is a lot of questionability in that statement. Mostly that Air France has no current (public) plans to operate the A350-1000. Pretty shocking this journalist didn't even pick up on that fact.
They posted seat layouts for various A350-1000 versions last year.
Do we have any idea if these are likely to be new orders or conversions from -900 orders?
They need to order more aircraft. Once the 777-200ER fleet is retired, assuming a one-for-one basis, they will still have 7 A350-900 orders outstanding. They have a fleet of over 40 777-300ER's.
VSMUT wrote:FlyingHonu001 wrote:VSMUT wrote:Did KLM just remove the free cup of water from the snack box on short haul flights? It was missing on my last 3 flights.
Yes, they are. Catering division is indeed streamlining their productline. You can expect noticable changes, for example C-class catering offerings both on European shorthaul and Cityhopper flights are going to be practically the same
Interesting, does that mean cardboard box business salads for mainline, or will Cityhopper be upgrading? How does KLM differ from Cityhopper in Economy, I haven't noticed any difference there before?
FlyingHonu001 wrote:VSMUT wrote:FlyingHonu001 wrote:
Yes, they are. Catering division is indeed streamlining their productline. You can expect noticable changes, for example C-class catering offerings both on European shorthaul and Cityhopper flights are going to be practically the same
Interesting, does that mean cardboard box business salads for mainline, or will Cityhopper be upgrading? How does KLM differ from Cityhopper in Economy, I haven't noticed any difference there before?
Indeed its going to be those fancy boxes on all European 737 business flights, like the ones on Cityhopper. So no more trayed meals unfortunately
Capricorn wrote:mercure1 wrote:And yes consolidation of functions should be a strong desire at the group level. As we have spoken about there is terrible duplication of many functions across airlines that should be combined and gain cost efficiencies. There is no better time to do it than now in the midst of a disaster.
I agree with this. It should be designed as a win-win outcome, i.e. some functions go to KL and some go to AF (probably the larger share as AF is the larger company). From a corporate viewpoint it might make more sense to centralise more functions at KL because of the more advantageous labor laws (Strict French Labour laws and strong Unions), but that would obviously not go down well at AF and thusly put the AFKL union in jeopardy.
IMO the AFKL union is challenged to some degree because of vastly different (economic) cultures that both entities operate in. That seems to sometimes cause frictions, apparently more so than at LHG or IAG (based on my subjective reading of aviation news).
Capricorn wrote:VSMUT wrote:PM wrote:
Do we have any idea if these are likely to be new orders or conversions from -900 orders?
They need to order more aircraft. Once the 777-200ER fleet is retired, assuming a one-for-one basis, they will still have 7 A350-900 orders outstanding. They have a fleet of over 40 777-300ER's.
So I am guessing the 777X will not be considered then at AF? (not including KL) But it makes sense as France might end up being both an investor in AF as well as in AB.
frigatebird wrote:Capricorn wrote:VSMUT wrote:
They need to order more aircraft. Once the 777-200ER fleet is retired, assuming a one-for-one basis, they will still have 7 A350-900 orders outstanding. They have a fleet of over 40 777-300ER's.
So I am guessing the 777X will not be considered then at AF? (not including KL) But it makes sense as France might end up being both an investor in AF as well as in AB.
A359s are for replacement of the remaining A340s, A380s, some A330s and part of the 77E fleet at AF.
frigatebird wrote:And maybe the remaining A330s too, if AF decides to go for an all Airbus widebody fleet and skips the A330neo (likely).
frigatebird wrote:The 77W's won't need replacement until the second half of this decade
mercure1 wrote:From what I gather France is speaking about nationalizing AF which is one of the wholly-owned subsidiaries of the group. How this is structured, I am not sure, but seems French state is focused on the French brands, not of the larger group.
And yes consolidation of functions should be a strong desire at the group level. As we have spoken about there is terrible duplication of many functions across airlines that should be combined and gain cost efficiencies. There is no better time to do it than now in the midst of a disaster.
ro1960 wrote:mercure1 wrote:From what I gather France is speaking about nationalizing AF which is one of the wholly-owned subsidiaries of the group. How this is structured, I am not sure, but seems French state is focused on the French brands, not of the larger group.
And yes consolidation of functions should be a strong desire at the group level. As we have spoken about there is terrible duplication of many functions across airlines that should be combined and gain cost efficiencies. There is no better time to do it than now in the midst of a disaster.
It is unclear to me as well how the French government could nationalize AF. Both gouvernements own each 14.3% of the group AFKL. So nationalizing a wholly owned subsidiary would mean taking it out of the group before nationalizing? How would this work?
Aresxerexade wrote:ro1960 wrote:mercure1 wrote:From what I gather France is speaking about nationalizing AF which is one of the wholly-owned subsidiaries of the group. How this is structured, I am not sure, but seems French state is focused on the French brands, not of the larger group.
And yes consolidation of functions should be a strong desire at the group level. As we have spoken about there is terrible duplication of many functions across airlines that should be combined and gain cost efficiencies. There is no better time to do it than now in the midst of a disaster.
It is unclear to me as well how the French government could nationalize AF. Both gouvernements own each 14.3% of the group AFKL. So nationalizing a wholly owned subsidiary would mean taking it out of the group before nationalizing? How would this work?
Or perhaps both Dutch and French governments agree to a joint nationalization and operation of the group.
ro1960 wrote:Aresxerexade wrote:ro1960 wrote:
It is unclear to me as well how the French government could nationalize AF. Both gouvernements own each 14.3% of the group AFKL. So nationalizing a wholly owned subsidiary would mean taking it out of the group before nationalizing? How would this work?
Or perhaps both Dutch and French governments agree to a joint nationalization and operation of the group.
What about all the other subsidiaries? Transavia FR, Transavia NL, Hop!, etc.
FlyingHonu001 wrote:On 12/31, KL896 PVG - AMS with PH-BVA (77W) did a 180 over Russia and was diverted to PEK due to unspecified engine troubles.
Source:
http://avherald.com/h?article=4e1382b3&opt=0
https://fr24.com/data/flights/kl896#2673b05c
FlyingHonu001 wrote:ro1960 wrote:Aresxerexade wrote:
Or perhaps both Dutch and French governments agree to a joint nationalization and operation of the group.
What about all the other subsidiaries? Transavia FR, Transavia NL, Hop!, etc.
If nationalization is being considered, not much will change imho.
AFAIK; HOP is currently being integrated into AF. The Transavia branches for example are very much operated locally. Other divisions such as Cityhopper and KL's catering division are also considered independent companies. Both respective governments will probably have more say in financial oversight as shareholder on a higher level than in operational technicalities.
ro1960 wrote:FlyingHonu001 wrote:ro1960 wrote:
What about all the other subsidiaries? Transavia FR, Transavia NL, Hop!, etc.
If nationalization is being considered, not much will change imho.
AFAIK; HOP is currently being integrated into AF. The Transavia branches for example are very much operated locally. Other divisions such as Cityhopper and KL's catering division are also considered independent companies. Both respective governments will probably have more say in financial oversight as shareholder on a higher level than in operational technicalities.
AFKL is a group with shares in the subsidiaries, two of which are AF and KL. I imagine the group has to be broken up so AF and KL can be nationalized, that is "purchased" by, respectively, the French and the Dutch governments. If the group is broken up, the other subs will have to be purchased. I imagine Transavia NL by KL, Transavia FR by AF.
I'm no economic expert and I'm trying to understand how this would work. I think it is a bit more than "operational technicalities".
FlyingHonu001 wrote:AF and KL are already seperate companies, existing under the management of the Group so there is no need of breaking it up.