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artflyer
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Re: Air France KLM News and Discussion Thread - 2021

Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:11 am

Blerg wrote:
ro1960 wrote:
patrickw421 wrote:

https://www.euronews.com/2021/03/12/eu- ... ccinations

I think this is the news about it but I think it is only logical for AF to follow the same protocol if they are using the trial to test real situation if the government is asking for EMA approved vaccine only.

For the Russian one I don't think it would be a huge problem since EU was saying they didn't receive any application and hence in no position to approve it. For the Chinese one however, their data isn't even on any peer reviewed academic journal yet so I'm not sure.


So we're not talking about a "scandal" but rather about a measured decision.


It's a scandal because they are bringing politics into the vaccine discussion. How can they not recognize vaccines which are already in use in countries like Hungary or Slovakia? Poland is already negotiating with China to get their vaccine since the EU is incompetent at securing the necessary doses. Luckily the Covid passport proposal first has to clear the EU Commission where several countries such as Italy, Austria, Poland, Hungary... will object.


Just a couple of OT comments as Poland was mentioned. Poland was offered by China to buy Chinese vaccines and is indeed eager to do so, but Poland also made it clear that it is only interested if these vaccines are EMA approved, ie there will be no national approval of Chinese vaccines in Poland like in case of Hungary or Slovakia.

As to passport, currently vaccination is not a prerequisite of entry into Poland: subject to some exceptions based primarily on nationality/domicile, the prerequisite is essential travel. Vaccination is one of the exemptions from the requirement to self-isolate upon entry, but it only applies to EMA approved vaccines. And finally Poland already has an electronic vaccine passport in place for people vaccinated in Poland, so I am not sure Poland would be against it at the EU level.
 
Blerg
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Re: Air France KLM News and Discussion Thread - 2021

Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:36 am

marcelh wrote:
Blerg wrote:
ro1960 wrote:

So we're not talking about a "scandal" but rather about a measured decision.


It's a scandal because they are bringing politics into the vaccine discussion. How can they not recognize vaccines which are already in use in countries like Hungary or Slovakia? Poland is already negotiating with China to get their vaccine since the EU is incompetent at securing the necessary doses. Luckily the Covid passport proposal first has to clear the EU Commission where several countries such as Italy, Austria, Poland, Hungary... will object.

China isn’t accepting vaccinated people from other countries either. And you clearly don’t (want to) understand that Hungary and Slovakia are deliberately undermining the EU by taking non-accepted vaccines by the EMA. And all member states are also accountable for the EU vaccin purchase, but that is something for another thread


Countries like Hungary and Slovakia are not the only ones. Italy is looking to start manufacturing Sputnik while Austria wants to make the Chinese one. There is obviously a discord between Brussels and its western members and those in the south and east. The EU has grossly mismanaged the whole situation and has created an obvious shortage of vaccines. What are countries like Italy, Slovakia, Hungary, Austria... supposed to do? Sit in a complete lockdown until Pfizer or AstraZenece send them the needed doses? That makes zero sense.

As for China, they still didn't open their borders and if you read the statement issued yesterday, they are not going to only allow people who were vaccinated with Sinopharm to enter but they are going to make their life easier when applying for a visa. It's no different than what the EU proposed with covid passports.

Luckily this covid passport proposal first needs to clear the Commission and I doubt countries above will give the green light and discriminate against themselves.

p.s. how many people have died or had complications from Astra Zeneca which was approved by the EU? Once again, all this is highly political and that's why I hope AF will be reasonable enough to stay away from this bad PR.
 
MartijnNL
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Re: Air France KLM News and Discussion Thread - 2021

Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:57 am

LAXintl wrote:
Vandalised 772 getting cleaned up

Image

What happened?
 
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qf789
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Re: Air France KLM News and Discussion Thread - 2021

Sun Mar 14, 2021 12:05 pm

Air France is planning several seasonal routes for Summer 21

Image

https://twitter.com/theaeronetwork/stat ... 57057?s=20
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FlyingHonu001
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Re: Air France KLM News and Discussion Thread - 2021

Sun Mar 14, 2021 3:51 pm

If anybody is interested, KL's last 744 PH-BFV now scheduled to depart from homebase AMS for temporary storage at TEV tomorrow at 08:00hr UTC.
Last edited by FlyingHonu001 on Sun Mar 14, 2021 3:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: Air France KLM News and Discussion Thread - 2021

Sun Mar 14, 2021 3:57 pm

Why store at Terceira in the Azores ? Sea air isn't great for preservation... and a small island in the middle of the ocean isn't great for aircraft disassembly
 
FlyingHonu001
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Re: Air France KLM News and Discussion Thread - 2021

Sun Mar 14, 2021 4:01 pm

Haha wrong airport, I meant Teruel, now edited :bigmouth: :rotfl:
 
remco1979
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Re: Air France KLM News and Discussion Thread - 2021

Sun Mar 14, 2021 5:17 pm

FlyingHonu001 wrote:
If anybody is interested, KL's last 744 PH-BFV now scheduled to depart from homebase AMS for temporary storage at TEV tomorrow at 08:00hr UTC.


I hope they will find a buyer just like the PH-BFW is converted to cargo for Longtail.
 
PANAMsterdam
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Re: Air France KLM News and Discussion Thread - 2021

Sun Mar 14, 2021 5:45 pm

KLM's brand new E195-E2 already out of service due to... a lightning strike near Berlin.

Quote from AV Herald:

A KLM Cityhopper Embraer ERJ-195-E2, registration PH-NXA performing flight KL-1831 from Amsterdam (Netherlands) to Berlin (Germany), was on approach to Berlin's Brandenburg Airport with thunderstorms around the aerodrome when the aircraft entered a hold at 5000 feet for about 20 minutes. The aircraft landed safely on runway 25R.

The aircraft was unable to depart for the return flight due to lightning strike damage, the flight had to be cancelled. The aircraft remained on the ground for about 48 hours before positioning back to Amsterdam.

The aircraft had joined the fleet of KLM Cityhopper on Feb 23rd 2021 having done it's first flight on Jan 22nd 2021.
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FlyingHonu001
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Re: Air France KLM News and Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:39 pm

Meanwhile at AMS, KL took PH-AOM (332) for a quick around the block after a long nap...

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airc ... m#27326c92
 
FB330
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Re: Air France KLM News and Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:45 pm

Looks like it has been stripped of titles too so on its way out?
 
inkjet7
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Re: Air France KLM News and Discussion Thread - 2021

Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:15 pm

FB330 wrote:
Looks like it has been stripped of titles too so on its way out?

It is, with two others including PH-AON.
--
 
FlyingHonu001
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Re: Air France KLM News and Discussion Thread - 2021

Sun Mar 28, 2021 3:44 pm

KL doesnt waste time with their brand-new 77W's: PH-BVV already hopping back and forth across the Atlantic for KL735/736 AMS-CUR v.v.
https://fr24.com/KLM129/2737fbc4
 
FB330
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Re: Air France KLM News and Discussion Thread - 2021

Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:33 am

Does anyone have a list of A330s and B737s that are due to leave in the coming months?
 
FlyingHonu001
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Re: Air France KLM News and Discussion Thread - 2021

Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:55 am

The brand-new PH-BVW is also getting her hands... I mean 'wings' dirty:

KL791 from Amsterdam to Sao Paulo v.v. https://fr24.com/KLM791/2739d00e
 
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mercure1
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Re: Air France KLM News and Discussion Thread - 2021

Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:03 pm

Reported that the French government and the EU have reached an agreement on the terms of aid package to Air France, while the Dutch authorities have not yet reached a deal with the EU on the extent of the concessions in exchange for aid to KLM.

Also separately, AF looks to close its crew bases in Marseille (MRS), Nice (NCE) and Toulouse (TLS).

https://aviationweek.com/air-transport/ ... ern-france
mercure f-wtcc
 
Blerg
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Re: Air France KLM News and Discussion Thread - 2021

Thu Apr 01, 2021 5:53 am

Air France is now asking its employees to give up three holiday days. It's a new cost cutting measure since the airline is losing millions each day. I suppose the new lockdown won't help them recover their losses anytime soon.

https://www.france24.com/en/tv-shows/bu ... sses-mount
 
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Aesma
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Re: Air France KLM News and Discussion Thread - 2021

Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:14 am

They're asking but the law has been changed for the pandemic, allowing companies to force people to take some of their holidays anyway.
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ro1960
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Re: Air France KLM News and Discussion Thread - 2021

Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:45 am

Aesma wrote:
They're asking but the law has been changed for the pandemic, allowing companies to force people to take some of their holidays anyway.


Yes the law allows employers to plan holidays for their employees even if they don't want. This does not change the number of vacation days. What is being asked is to give up vacation days, meaning working more. It's different.
Do not compensate for the lack of skills with a surplus of opinion.
 
Flanker7
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Re: Air France KLM News and Discussion Thread - 2021

Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:24 pm

We are talking about three days out of how many?
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Blerg
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Re: Air France KLM News and Discussion Thread - 2021

Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:34 pm

Anyone know how much AF would save from these three days?
 
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ro1960
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Re: Air France KLM News and Discussion Thread - 2021

Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:57 pm

Flanker7 wrote:
We are talking about three days out of how many?


The legal minimum in France is 25 days or 5 weeks per year. Then each company can have their own set of rules adding to that. I can't say for AF, but it's probably more than 25 and depends on the job type. FA and pilots certainly have more than ground or office staff.
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Re: Air France KLM News and Discussion Thread - 2021

Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:11 am

The board of Air France-KLM is expected to meet on Monday to discuss details of an agreed state-backed refinancing plan.

https://money.usnews.com/investing/news ... ources-say
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ro1960
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Re: Air France KLM News and Discussion Thread - 2021

Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:18 am

French finance minister Bruno Lemaire just announced on France Inter radio a new 3 billion euros aid for Air France by raising the French government stake from 14,3% to 29,9%. In return, AF will have to give up 18 slots at ORY. The European Commission initially asked for 24.
Do not compensate for the lack of skills with a surplus of opinion.
 
PANAMsterdam
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Re: Air France KLM News and Discussion Thread - 2021

Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:47 am

Great deal for AF. Only 18 slots at Orly and 0 at CDG? hopefully this will be enough to get the flying baguettes through this crisis.
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Capricorn
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Re: Air France KLM News and Discussion Thread - 2021

Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:57 am

Will be interesting to see what NL will do. Do they want to match the move by the French government in order not to loose influence or will they take a passive approach this time?
 
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Re: Air France KLM News and Discussion Thread - 2021

Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:23 am

ro1960 wrote:
French finance minister Bruno Lemaire just announced on France Inter radio a new 3 billion euros aid for Air France by raising the French government stake from 14,3% to 29,9%. In return, AF will have to give up 18 slots at ORY. The European Commission initially asked for 24.


So is that 30% stake in the group or Air France alone?
 
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Re: Air France KLM News and Discussion Thread - 2021

Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:38 am

Capricorn wrote:
Will be interesting to see what NL will do. Do they want to match the move by the French government in order not to loose influence or will they take a passive approach this time?


The Dutch government has decided not to buy new shares, Minister Hoekstra writes in a letter to parliament about the recapitalization of Air France-KLM. As a result, the state's shareholding in AF-KLM will decrease, from 14 percent to a minimum of 9.3 percent.
 
NLDru
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Re: Air France KLM News and Discussion Thread - 2021

Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:46 am

Capricorn wrote:
Will be interesting to see what NL will do. Do they want to match the move by the French government in order not to loose influence or will they take a passive approach this time?


Today, Minister Hoekstra of Finance has indicated that the Dutch government will no longer invest billions. At the start of the Covid-19, the Dutch government first wanted to ensure that KLM remains viable. And AF needs more financial help than KLM.

And if KLM receive financial support from the government, it would have to give up slots at Schiphol. And KLM knows that Easyjet is looking for the slots and hopes to prevent this. AF only has to give up slots on Orly, so CDG is spared.

Hoekstra wants to leave KLM alone and KLM must ensure that it can survive. As long as KLM can stay on the air and is not in an emergency, it will not receive any extra tax money from the Dutch government.
 
Capricorn
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Re: Air France KLM News and Discussion Thread - 2021

Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:57 am

Thank you NLDru & FlyingHonu001 for your insightful answers. If France gets a stronger say in AFKL that probably means stronger centralisation at Paris. Depending on the implementation that can be a very positive outcome, or a not so positive one.
 
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ro1960
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Re: Air France KLM News and Discussion Thread - 2021

Tue Apr 06, 2021 12:52 pm

VSMUT wrote:
ro1960 wrote:
French finance minister Bruno Lemaire just announced on France Inter radio a new 3 billion euros aid for Air France by raising the French government stake from 14,3% to 29,9%. In return, AF will have to give up 18 slots at ORY. The European Commission initially asked for 24.


So is that 30% stake in the group or Air France alone?


In the AF-KL Group, but I guess if you double your shares, you must double your votes on the board and be able to influence where the money actually goes, no?
Do not compensate for the lack of skills with a surplus of opinion.
 
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ro1960
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Re: Air France KLM News and Discussion Thread - 2021

Tue Apr 06, 2021 12:54 pm

Details are being released since this morning announcement:

"Bruno Le Maire, France’s finance minister, said Tuesday that the new aid is taking the form of a state-backed recapitalization, which involves converting €3 billion in loans the government granted the airline last year into bonds with no maturity, as well as €1 billion in fresh capital through the issuance of new shares."
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/04/06/business/stock-market-today#air-france-aid
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ro1960
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Re: Air France KLM News and Discussion Thread - 2021

Tue Apr 06, 2021 12:58 pm

PANAMsterdam wrote:
Great deal for AF. Only 18 slots at Orly and 0 at CDG? hopefully this will be enough to get the flying baguettes through this crisis.


AF wants to shift routes at ORY from AF to TO that has lower operational costs. This could limit this expansion. It's unclear if the slots belong to the airline Air France or to the AF-KL Group. Someone with knowledge can maybe say.
Do not compensate for the lack of skills with a surplus of opinion.
 
PANAMsterdam
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Re: Air France KLM News and Discussion Thread - 2021

Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:39 pm

ro1960 wrote:
PANAMsterdam wrote:
Great deal for AF. Only 18 slots at Orly and 0 at CDG? hopefully this will be enough to get the flying baguettes through this crisis.


AF wants to shift routes at ORY from AF to TO that has lower operational costs. This could limit this expansion. It's unclear if the slots belong to the airline Air France or to the AF-KL Group. Someone with knowledge can maybe say.


I agree, but 18 is an amount that's not super hard to overcome. Perhaps they will 'donate' some AF routes to TO, just like KL did with HV years ago. Summer destinations like FAO, LPA, FUE...
Every country has an airline. The world has Pan Am.
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: Air France KLM News and Discussion Thread - 2021

Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:01 pm

I don't think the EU would approve if Air France gives slots to Transavia...
 
mxaxai
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Re: Air France KLM News and Discussion Thread - 2021

Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:46 pm

PANAMsterdam wrote:
Great deal for AF. Only 18 slots at Orly and 0 at CDG? hopefully this will be enough to get the flying baguettes through this crisis.

CDG has more than enough capacity that any new entrants could easily start flying there. Orly on the other hand is more restricted (mostly for political reasons but also due to the lack of parallel runways).

Similar to Milan, where LIN slots are relatively valuable compared to MXP, or DFW vs. DAL.
 
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ro1960
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Re: Air France KLM News and Discussion Thread - 2021

Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:49 pm

PANAMsterdam wrote:
ro1960 wrote:
PANAMsterdam wrote:
Great deal for AF. Only 18 slots at Orly and 0 at CDG? hopefully this will be enough to get the flying baguettes through this crisis.


AF wants to shift routes at ORY from AF to TO that has lower operational costs. This could limit this expansion. It's unclear if the slots belong to the airline Air France or to the AF-KL Group. Someone with knowledge can maybe say.


I agree, but 18 is an amount that's not super hard to overcome. Perhaps they will 'donate' some AF routes to TO, just like KL did with HV years ago. Summer destinations like FAO, LPA, FUE...


The plan is to shift domestic routes from AF to TO. That's where the slots will be most needed for frequency. I believe BIQ, NTE, MRS, TLS, PUF, PGF, MPL and TLN were planned but their web site only shows BES, BIQ and TLN from ORY at the moment.
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ro1960
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Re: Air France KLM News and Discussion Thread - 2021

Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:53 pm

mxaxai wrote:
Orly on the other hand is more restricted (mostly for political reasons but also due to the lack of parallel runways).


ORY has dual runway operations although not quite parallel (one for landings, one for take-offs). The real restriction comes from the curfew between 23h30 and 6h00. CDG is open 24 hours.
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vhtje
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Re: Air France KLM News and Discussion Thread - 2021

Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:38 pm

NLDru wrote:
Capricorn wrote:
Will be interesting to see what NL will do. Do they want to match the move by the French government in order not to loose influence or will they take a passive approach this time?


Today, Minister Hoekstra of Finance has indicated that the Dutch government will no longer invest billions. At the start of the Covid-19, the Dutch government first wanted to ensure that KLM remains viable. And AF needs more financial help than KLM.

And if KLM receive financial support from the government, it would have to give up slots at Schiphol. And KLM knows that Easyjet is looking for the slots and hopes to prevent this. AF only has to give up slots on Orly, so CDG is spared.

Hoekstra wants to leave KLM alone and KLM must ensure that it can survive. As long as KLM can stay on the air and is not in an emergency, it will not receive any extra tax money from the Dutch government.


Is the Dutch government's stance politically viable? I can't imagine the Dutch people would be happy with the French State getting a larger slice of AF/KLM, and therefore much greater influence in how KLM is run.

The People Will Be Angry, no?
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N717TW
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Re: Air France KLM News and Discussion Thread - 2021

Tue Apr 06, 2021 4:10 pm

vhtje wrote:
NLDru wrote:
Capricorn wrote:
Will be interesting to see what NL will do. Do they want to match the move by the French government in order not to loose influence or will they take a passive approach this time?


Today, Minister Hoekstra of Finance has indicated that the Dutch government will no longer invest billions. At the start of the Covid-19, the Dutch government first wanted to ensure that KLM remains viable. And AF needs more financial help than KLM.

And if KLM receive financial support from the government, it would have to give up slots at Schiphol. And KLM knows that Easyjet is looking for the slots and hopes to prevent this. AF only has to give up slots on Orly, so CDG is spared.

Hoekstra wants to leave KLM alone and KLM must ensure that it can survive. As long as KLM can stay on the air and is not in an emergency, it will not receive any extra tax money from the Dutch government.


Is the Dutch government's stance politically viable? I can't imagine the Dutch people would be happy with the French State getting a larger slice of AF/KLM, and therefore much greater influence in how KLM is run.

The People Will Be Angry, no?


I am confused by the French vs. Dutch conversation vis-a-vis AF/KLM. I'm not directing this at anyone here but just in general as I see a version of this all the time but yet I never see any of this at IAG relative to IB, BA or EI (frankly the Irish seem to shrug at EI as a national carrier) and it feels like the Belgians, Swiss and Austrians barely have a voice in what happens at Lufthansa. Is there something unique about the Dutch and the French that make this marriage feel more arranged.

I will say, as an American, I find these European mega carriers odd. I get the different brands and maybe different uniforms but I don't understand why everything else isn't completely uniform and integrated .. from routing and scheduling, service standards, right down to the priority tags on luggage. It reminds me of the old Texas Air with Eastern and Continental ... which was really an opportunity to raid EA and help CO. And while I don't think there is a raid AF to help KLM thing going on, running two different airlines breads a level of discontent that need not exist. And while there is a focus on Paris as a destination and AMS has a network hub, the integration isn't as uniform as it should be. Honestly there shouldn't be a difference in routing me, in fares and in booking experience. When I am looking to fly from Scotland down to the South of France, I should get routings via both CDG and AMS and it should be priced dynamically, just as I would in the US through the different hubs and the service should be the same. Frankly I would go as far as saying the HOP/CityHopper operation should just be one unified brand that allows the planes to move around the network easier (CDG to ZRH to AMS) but maybe I'll save that for another thread.
 
Capricorn
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Re: Air France KLM News and Discussion Thread - 2021

Tue Apr 06, 2021 4:46 pm

N717TW wrote:
vhtje wrote:
NLDru wrote:

Today, Minister Hoekstra of Finance has indicated that the Dutch government will no longer invest billions. At the start of the Covid-19, the Dutch government first wanted to ensure that KLM remains viable. And AF needs more financial help than KLM.

And if KLM receive financial support from the government, it would have to give up slots at Schiphol. And KLM knows that Easyjet is looking for the slots and hopes to prevent this. AF only has to give up slots on Orly, so CDG is spared.

Hoekstra wants to leave KLM alone and KLM must ensure that it can survive. As long as KLM can stay on the air and is not in an emergency, it will not receive any extra tax money from the Dutch government.


Is the Dutch government's stance politically viable? I can't imagine the Dutch people would be happy with the French State getting a larger slice of AF/KLM, and therefore much greater influence in how KLM is run.

The People Will Be Angry, no?


I am confused by the French vs. Dutch conversation vis-a-vis AF/KLM. I'm not directing this at anyone here but just in general as I see a version of this all the time but yet I never see any of this at IAG relative to IB, BA or EI (frankly the Irish seem to shrug at EI as a national carrier) and it feels like the Belgians, Swiss and Austrians barely have a voice in what happens at Lufthansa. Is there something unique about the Dutch and the French that make this marriage feel more arranged.

I will say, as an American, I find these European mega carriers odd. I get the different brands and maybe different uniforms but I don't understand why everything else isn't completely uniform and integrated .. from routing and scheduling, service standards, right down to the priority tags on luggage. It reminds me of the old Texas Air with Eastern and Continental ... which was really an opportunity to raid EA and help CO. And while I don't think there is a raid AF to help KLM thing going on, running two different airlines breads a level of discontent that need not exist. And while there is a focus on Paris as a destination and AMS has a network hub, the integration isn't as uniform as it should be. Honestly there shouldn't be a difference in routing me, in fares and in booking experience. When I am looking to fly from Scotland down to the South of France, I should get routings via both CDG and AMS and it should be priced dynamically, just as I would in the US through the different hubs and the service should be the same. Frankly I would go as far as saying the HOP/CityHopper operation should just be one unified brand that allows the planes to move around the network easier (CDG to ZRH to AMS) but maybe I'll save that for another thread.


IMO the main difference between AFKL and LHG & IAG is that in the formers case governments were already involved prior to the C19 crisis, while at LHG and IAG governments were rarely directly engaged. Furthermore management at LHG & IAG is trying to limit the governments influence over the company, while AFKL actively wants more involvement. LHG for example wants nothin more than pay back the sate aid in order to be "free" again. I have no info how things at IAG are handled but I heard its closer to LHG than AFKL. IMO politics are kept out more efficiently of LHG & IAG, which leads to greater acceptance of management decisions. I don't think the AF and KL would not get along, I just think that politics complicates things, as politicians are by design supposed to look out for the interest of their constituency and in the case of AFKL, French politicians look out for the French side while Dutch politicians do the same for the Dutch side.
 
panamair
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Re: Air France KLM News and Discussion Thread - 2021

Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:29 pm

N717TW wrote:
vhtje wrote:
NLDru wrote:

Today, Minister Hoekstra of Finance has indicated that the Dutch government will no longer invest billions. At the start of the Covid-19, the Dutch government first wanted to ensure that KLM remains viable. And AF needs more financial help than KLM.

And if KLM receive financial support from the government, it would have to give up slots at Schiphol. And KLM knows that Easyjet is looking for the slots and hopes to prevent this. AF only has to give up slots on Orly, so CDG is spared.

Hoekstra wants to leave KLM alone and KLM must ensure that it can survive. As long as KLM can stay on the air and is not in an emergency, it will not receive any extra tax money from the Dutch government.


Is the Dutch government's stance politically viable? I can't imagine the Dutch people would be happy with the French State getting a larger slice of AF/KLM, and therefore much greater influence in how KLM is run.

The People Will Be Angry, no?


I am confused by the French vs. Dutch conversation vis-a-vis AF/KLM. I'm not directing this at anyone here but just in general as I see a version of this all the time but yet I never see any of this at IAG relative to IB, BA or EI (frankly the Irish seem to shrug at EI as a national carrier) and it feels like the Belgians, Swiss and Austrians barely have a voice in what happens at Lufthansa. Is there something unique about the Dutch and the French that make this marriage feel more arranged.

I will say, as an American, I find these European mega carriers odd. I get the different brands and maybe different uniforms but I don't understand why everything else isn't completely uniform and integrated .. from routing and scheduling, service standards, right down to the priority tags on luggage. It reminds me of the old Texas Air with Eastern and Continental ... which was really an opportunity to raid EA and help CO. And while I don't think there is a raid AF to help KLM thing going on, running two different airlines breads a level of discontent that need not exist. And while there is a focus on Paris as a destination and AMS has a network hub, the integration isn't as uniform as it should be. Honestly there shouldn't be a difference in routing me, in fares and in booking experience. When I am looking to fly from Scotland down to the South of France, I should get routings via both CDG and AMS and it should be priced dynamically, just as I would in the US through the different hubs and the service should be the same. Frankly I would go as far as saying the HOP/CityHopper operation should just be one unified brand that allows the planes to move around the network easier (CDG to ZRH to AMS) but maybe I'll save that for another thread.


I actually find AF-KL to be more integrated in terms of the booking experience and various IT interfaces than say LH with LX. AF and KL for example appear to be using the same check-in kiosk interfaces already, and they each seamlessly list flight options on the other in their apps and on their websites when booking; try booking on the LX website or app for example, and you have to specifically request to get all LH group flights returned in your search. Getting seats on each other’s flights (booked as codeshares) is also a separate effort with each operating airline whereas on AF-KL you can do it all at once no matter which carrier’s website you are on.
 
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vhtje
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Re: Air France KLM News and Discussion Thread - 2021

Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:04 am

N717TW wrote:
vhtje wrote:

Is the Dutch government's stance politically viable? I can't imagine the Dutch people would be happy with the French State getting a larger slice of AF/KLM, and therefore much greater influence in how KLM is run.

The People Will Be Angry, no?


I am confused by the French vs. Dutch conversation vis-a-vis AF/KLM. I'm not directing this at anyone here but just in general as I see a version of this all the time but yet I never see any of this at IAG relative to IB, BA or EI (frankly the Irish seem to shrug at EI as a national carrier) and it feels like the Belgians, Swiss and Austrians barely have a voice in what happens at Lufthansa. Is there something unique about the Dutch and the French that make this marriage feel more arranged.

I will say, as an American, I find these European mega carriers odd. I get the different brands and maybe different uniforms but I don't understand why everything else isn't completely uniform and integrated .. from routing and scheduling, service standards, right down to the priority tags on luggage. It reminds me of the old Texas Air with Eastern and Continental ... which was really an opportunity to raid EA and help CO. And while I don't think there is a raid AF to help KLM thing going on, running two different airlines breads a level of discontent that need not exist. And while there is a focus on Paris as a destination and AMS has a network hub, the integration isn't as uniform as it should be. Honestly there shouldn't be a difference in routing me, in fares and in booking experience. When I am looking to fly from Scotland down to the South of France, I should get routings via both CDG and AMS and it should be priced dynamically, just as I would in the US through the different hubs and the service should be the same. Frankly I would go as far as saying the HOP/CityHopper operation should just be one unified brand that allows the planes to move around the network easier (CDG to ZRH to AMS) but maybe I'll save that for another thread.


Don't confuse the French State with the French. My particular point is about the French State being left with having a much bigger say in the running of KLM than the Dutch Government.

But to your point: Europe isn't like America. Culturally, there is little difference between AA/DL/UA and even the LCCs like WN, etc, over the vast American landscape. The experience is different within Europe, where language, food, customs and even legal framework can feel very different over relatively short distances. Flying KLM, with Dutch language, food and booze, will feel different to flying IB, with Spanish language spoken, and Spanish food and booze offered. Even on the ground, a Spanish airport is different experience to the typically efficient Dutch airport experience.

For this reason, homogenisation, as you suggest, isn't pursued very much by the merged carriers, as least not front-of-house. They keep things separate so that each carrier can be wrapped in their respective nation's flag, as it were.
I only turn left when boarding aircraft. Well, mostly. All right, sometimes. OH OKAY - rarely.
 
marcelh
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Re: Air France KLM News and Discussion Thread - 2021

Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:19 am

vhtje wrote:
NLDru wrote:
Capricorn wrote:
Will be interesting to see what NL will do. Do they want to match the move by the French government in order not to loose influence or will they take a passive approach this time?


Today, Minister Hoekstra of Finance has indicated that the Dutch government will no longer invest billions. At the start of the Covid-19, the Dutch government first wanted to ensure that KLM remains viable. And AF needs more financial help than KLM.

And if KLM receive financial support from the government, it would have to give up slots at Schiphol. And KLM knows that Easyjet is looking for the slots and hopes to prevent this. AF only has to give up slots on Orly, so CDG is spared.

Hoekstra wants to leave KLM alone and KLM must ensure that it can survive. As long as KLM can stay on the air and is not in an emergency, it will not receive any extra tax money from the Dutch government.


Is the Dutch government's stance politically viable? I can't imagine the Dutch people would be happy with the French State getting a larger slice of AF/KLM, and therefore much greater influence in how KLM is run.

The People Will Be Angry, no?


The Dutch political stance is a bit different than stated earlier in this thread. It isn't "Minister Hoekstra of Finance has indicated that the Dutch government will no longer invest billions.", but rather "Minister Hoekstra of Finance has indicated that the Dutch government doesn't see the need to make billions of Euros available for support at this time."

Also, last February, KLM CEO Elbers stated at that time KLM had used only 900 million Euro of the 3.4 billion Euro support package agreed in 2020.
 
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N717TW
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Re: Air France KLM News and Discussion Thread - 2021

Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:19 am

vhtje wrote:
N717TW wrote:
vhtje wrote:

Is the Dutch government's stance politically viable? I can't imagine the Dutch people would be happy with the French State getting a larger slice of AF/KLM, and therefore much greater influence in how KLM is run.

The People Will Be Angry, no?


I am confused by the French vs. Dutch conversation vis-a-vis AF/KLM. I'm not directing this at anyone here but just in general as I see a version of this all the time but yet I never see any of this at IAG relative to IB, BA or EI (frankly the Irish seem to shrug at EI as a national carrier) and it feels like the Belgians, Swiss and Austrians barely have a voice in what happens at Lufthansa. Is there something unique about the Dutch and the French that make this marriage feel more arranged.

I will say, as an American, I find these European mega carriers odd. I get the different brands and maybe different uniforms but I don't understand why everything else isn't completely uniform and integrated .. from routing and scheduling, service standards, right down to the priority tags on luggage. It reminds me of the old Texas Air with Eastern and Continental ... which was really an opportunity to raid EA and help CO. And while I don't think there is a raid AF to help KLM thing going on, running two different airlines breads a level of discontent that need not exist. And while there is a focus on Paris as a destination and AMS has a network hub, the integration isn't as uniform as it should be. Honestly there shouldn't be a difference in routing me, in fares and in booking experience. When I am looking to fly from Scotland down to the South of France, I should get routings via both CDG and AMS and it should be priced dynamically, just as I would in the US through the different hubs and the service should be the same. Frankly I would go as far as saying the HOP/CityHopper operation should just be one unified brand that allows the planes to move around the network easier (CDG to ZRH to AMS) but maybe I'll save that for another thread.


Don't confuse the French State with the French. My particular point is about the French State being left with having a much bigger say in the running of KLM than the Dutch Government.

But to your point: Europe isn't like America. Culturally, there is little difference between AA/DL/UA and even the LCCs like WN, etc, over the vast American landscape. The experience is different within Europe, where language, food, customs and even legal framework can feel very different over relatively short distances. Flying KLM, with Dutch language, food and booze, will feel different to flying IB, with Spanish language spoken, and Spanish food and booze offered. Even on the ground, a Spanish airport is different experience to the typically efficient Dutch airport experience.

For this reason, homogenisation, as you suggest, isn't pursued very much by the merged carriers, as least not front-of-house. They keep things separate so that each carrier can be wrapped in their respective nation's flag, as it were.


I understand what you are saying and the result would be odd if flights from CDG are all called "KLM." However, EasyJet is from what I can tell harmonized across the entire network as is IAG's LEVEL. In that sense as the flag carriers are at a cost and complexity disadvantage to the LCCs and that will become only more pronounced. At some point one of them is going to move upmarket and then the flag carriers will be in real trouble.

back when there were more US carriers and they had a more regional focus there were huge swings in profitability between seasons; whereas now the larger networks and diversity of hubs allow AA/DL/UA to move the fleet around from North/South to East/West between Winter and Summer...and likewise ramp up and down Caribbean/Central America/Hawaii and Secondary Europe in a way that was much harder when there were 7/8 carriers. I sure can imagine IAG using larger aircraft out of MAD in the winter months and then moving those planes to LHR for the summer months...matching demand and reaping increased profits.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Air France KLM News and Discussion Thread - 2021

Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:50 am

vhtje wrote:
NLDru wrote:
Capricorn wrote:
Will be interesting to see what NL will do. Do they want to match the move by the French government in order not to loose influence or will they take a passive approach this time?


Today, Minister Hoekstra of Finance has indicated that the Dutch government will no longer invest billions. At the start of the Covid-19, the Dutch government first wanted to ensure that KLM remains viable. And AF needs more financial help than KLM.

And if KLM receive financial support from the government, it would have to give up slots at Schiphol. And KLM knows that Easyjet is looking for the slots and hopes to prevent this. AF only has to give up slots on Orly, so CDG is spared.

Hoekstra wants to leave KLM alone and KLM must ensure that it can survive. As long as KLM can stay on the air and is not in an emergency, it will not receive any extra tax money from the Dutch government.


Is the Dutch government's stance politically viable? I can't imagine the Dutch people would be happy with the French State getting a larger slice of AF/KLM, and therefore much greater influence in how KLM is run.

The People Will Be Angry, no?

Why? The ownership shares were asymmetrical for years. I don't see the virtue in willingness to throw money down a hole.
 
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ro1960
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Re: Air France KLM News and Discussion Thread - 2021

Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:48 am

N717TW wrote:
back when there were more US carriers and they had a more regional focus there were huge swings in profitability between seasons; whereas now the larger networks and diversity of hubs allow AA/DL/UA to move the fleet around from North/South to East/West between Winter and Summer...and likewise ramp up and down Caribbean/Central America/Hawaii and Secondary Europe in a way that was much harder when there were 7/8 carriers. I sure can imagine IAG using larger aircraft out of MAD in the winter months and then moving those planes to LHR for the summer months...matching demand and reaping increased profits.


I am not sure you can apply a single airline/brand strategy in terms of fleet management to a group of airlines like IAG, LHG and AF-KL. Each airline component of these groups fly their own aircraft and I don't believe they shuffle them around like you describe.
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vhtje
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Re: Air France KLM News and Discussion Thread - 2021

Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:15 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
vhtje wrote:
NLDru wrote:

Today, Minister Hoekstra of Finance has indicated that the Dutch government will no longer invest billions. At the start of the Covid-19, the Dutch government first wanted to ensure that KLM remains viable. And AF needs more financial help than KLM.

And if KLM receive financial support from the government, it would have to give up slots at Schiphol. And KLM knows that Easyjet is looking for the slots and hopes to prevent this. AF only has to give up slots on Orly, so CDG is spared.

Hoekstra wants to leave KLM alone and KLM must ensure that it can survive. As long as KLM can stay on the air and is not in an emergency, it will not receive any extra tax money from the Dutch government.


Is the Dutch government's stance politically viable? I can't imagine the Dutch people would be happy with the French State getting a larger slice of AF/KLM, and therefore much greater influence in how KLM is run.

The People Will Be Angry, no?

Why? The ownership shares were asymmetrical for years. I don't see the virtue in willingness to throw money down a hole.


Um, no, the Dutch Government had previously (pre-COVID, in 2019) raised their ownership level to match the French Government's stake. Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47386140

If it was a politically sensitive thing to warrant this in 2019, is it still the case in 2021? Is the Dutch Government taking a big risk, politically, by not raising their stake? I am not debating the economics of it - it's probably a dud investment, so the Dutch government's stance might be very prudent - I am just trying to gauge how the Dutch people are viewing the increase in French State ownership.
I only turn left when boarding aircraft. Well, mostly. All right, sometimes. OH OKAY - rarely.
 
petertenthije
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Re: Air France KLM News and Discussion Thread - 2021

Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:24 pm

vhtje wrote:
I am just trying to gauge how the Dutch people are viewing the increase in French State ownership.
It's a very mixed affair.

Prior to COVID it was simple. A lot of people thought it was profitable KL against basked-case AF, and that if KL was not supported then a lot of jobs and flights would be transferred to Paris.

Nowadays.... that opinion probably still holds true. But at the same time, there is a strong sentiment that says "why support KL with billions, but not XXXX when they've also been hit hard by COVID". Which is a fair statement. A lof of stores and the hospitality industry is going down and they don't get nearly as much support as KL.
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LAXintl
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Re: Air France KLM News and Discussion Thread - 2021

Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:01 pm

Here is a breakdown of the proposed share holding.

Image
https://i.ibb.co/nC1hWT0/2021-04-08-095204.png

Per analyst report:

There are two components to the plan. €1 billion of new money will come from an equity issue, with the French State and institutional shareholders both taking part. In addition a €3 billion loan from the French State will be converted into a “perpetual hybrid bonds instrument”.

The Dutch State, who own 14% of the AF-KL will not participate in the parent company capital raise. Neither will shareholder Delta, in part due to constraints imposed by the US CARES Act.

Current 8.8% shareholder China Eastern Airlines will participate and signalled that it intended to increase its shareholding to just below 10%. The French State also committed to keeping its shareholding below 30%. So the balance of the €1 billion will come from existing private shareholders or new institutional money.
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