mercure1 wrote:
Is it too early to ask which routes the A220 is going to be deployed?
Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
mercure1 wrote:
stl07 wrote:I always found AF's ATL/MIA-French Caribbean routes to be interesting since they are in DL's turf
adamblang wrote:To be honest, I'm surprised the YUL-PTP service didn't already exist.
LAX772LR wrote:stl07 wrote:I always found AF's ATL/MIA-French Caribbean routes to be interesting since they are in DL's turf
But it's really not. These aren't about business traffic or American beach-goers; these are (and for decades have been) targeted almost exclusively at Francophonic VFR traffic.
DL's got no hand in that; fairly certain that they don't even codeshare on these services.adamblang wrote:To be honest, I'm surprised the YUL-PTP service didn't already exist.
Same!
stl07 wrote:I always found AF's ATL/MIA-French Caribbean routes to be interesting since they are in DL's turf
luckyone wrote:LAX772LR wrote:stl07 wrote:I always found AF's ATL/MIA-French Caribbean routes to be interesting since they are in DL's turf
But it's really not. These aren't about business traffic or American beach-goers; these are (and for decades have been) targeted almost exclusively at Francophonic VFR traffic.
DL's got no hand in that; fairly certain that they don't even codeshare on these services.adamblang wrote:To be honest, I'm surprised the YUL-PTP service didn't already exist.
Same!
It has, just with Air Canada.
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:Are these routes that Norwegian used to fly?
MIflyer12 wrote:One might ask how many Euro French travel to Guadalupe, and how many Americans? This will just route some people after their visit to NYC. Any Americans are just gravy.
Chasensfo wrote:
Iberia at the same time had a much more robust network from MIA, of course, with 3 DC-9s based there:
Chasensfo wrote:Speaking of, from the September 1998 OAG, this was the only one of the Air France Carribbean routes servicing MIA at the time and only 3 days per week. At one point, were there more flights with 737/A320s to MIA? Oddly enough, per the OAG, the Air France 737 started and ended the day in MIA yet the route was 3x weekly...doesn't make sense that it would sit in MIA when it had routes to run in PTP/FDF. Did the planes "cycle out" at MIA or something?
AF;3747;MIA;PAP;0850;0950;246;733
AF;3747;PAP;PTP;1045;1330;246;733
AF;3746;PTP;PAP;1530;1635;246;733
AF;3746;PAP;MIA;1720;2025;246;733
nicode wrote:Chasensfo wrote:Speaking of, from the September 1998 OAG, this was the only one of the Air France Caribbean routes servicing MIA at the time and only 3 days per week. At one point, were there more flights with 737/A320s to MIA? Oddly enough, per the OAG, the Air France 737 started and ended the day in MIA yet the route was 3x weekly...doesn't make sense that it would sit in MIA when it had routes to run in PTP/FDF. Did the planes "cycle out" at MIA or something?
AF;3747;MIA;PAP;0850;0950;246;733
AF;3747;PAP;PTP;1045;1330;246;733
AF;3746;PTP;PAP;1530;1635;246;733
AF;3746;PAP;MIA;1720;2025;246;733
Maybe MIA-PAP-FDF and back ?
LAX772LR wrote:stl07 wrote:I always found AF's ATL/MIA-French Caribbean routes to be interesting since they are in DL's turf
But it's really not. These aren't about business traffic or American beach-goers; these are (and for decades have been) targeted almost exclusively at Francophonic VFR traffic.
DL's got no hand in that; fairly certain that they don't even codeshare on these services.adamblang wrote:To be honest, I'm surprised the YUL-PTP service didn't already exist.
Same!
Chasensfo wrote:Very bizarre...
aemoreira1981 wrote:Will AF have enough planes to operate the service, or would a third A320 be transferred from CDG to PTP for the winter?
ContinentalEWR wrote:LAX772LR wrote:stl07 wrote:I always found AF's ATL/MIA-French Caribbean routes to be interesting since they are in DL's turf
But it's really not. These aren't about business traffic or American beach-goers; these are (and for decades have been) targeted almost exclusively at Francophonic VFR traffic.
DL's got no hand in that; fairly certain that they don't even codeshare on these services.adamblang wrote:To be honest, I'm surprised the YUL-PTP service didn't already exist.
Same!
This is a route targeting French citizens in the NY area and a way to provide a solution to travel for those not able to go to France with ease and perhaps reunite with family, or as French citizens, have a destination a tiny bit closer to NY. These are not destinations Americans typically go to.
Aisak wrote:Chasensfo wrote:
Iberia at the same time had a much more robust network from MIA, of course, with 3 DC-9s based there:
The only drawback is that IB operated with 5th freedom rights. The flights were tag-ons from the MAD-MIA. Schedule wise this was not ideal as those intra-America flights had to be coordinated with MIA-MAD departures and MAD-MIA arrivals. At the end of that CAM minihub, there were 2xA319 based in MIA for the operation. It ended sadly due to transit visas required after 9/11. Most destinations started non-stop flight to MAD instead.
AF on the other hand can fly unrestrictedly from several destinations ex-MIA as they are French territories. Some other might not be, but can be flown using 5th freedom rights tag-on with the CDG-MIA flights.
nicode wrote:There are 2 A320 in Antilles.
Probably one doing MIA-PAP-PTP-FDF-CAY routing (and v/v) and the other one PTP-YUL/JFK 3x weekly for both.
MIflyer12 wrote:One might ask how many Euro French travel to Guadalupe, and how many Americans? This will just route some people after their visit to NYC. Any Americans are just gravy.
Brickell305 wrote:JFK is definitely aimed at getting American tourists.
Thenoflyzone wrote:Brickell305 wrote:JFK is definitely aimed at getting American tourists.
And YUL for Canadian tourists. There is probably very little francophone VFR traffic on PTP-YUL, and even less so to JFK.
Brickell305 wrote:ContinentalEWR wrote:LAX772LR wrote:But it's really not. These aren't about business traffic or American beach-goers; these are (and for decades have been) targeted almost exclusively at Francophonic VFR traffic.
DL's got no hand in that; fairly certain that they don't even codeshare on these services.
Same!
This is a route targeting French citizens in the NY area and a way to provide a solution to travel for those not able to go to France with ease and perhaps reunite with family, or as French citizens, have a destination a tiny bit closer to NY. These are not destinations Americans typically go to.
No, it's not. NYC-PTP is a tourist route. While it is true that PTP (and I'll include FDF as well) don't get many American tourists, they definitely do draw a niche crowd and NYC is the prime source market for that. DY knew that when they flew the route and B6 realized that as well when they decided to launch.
The French citizens thing makes absolutely zero sense as they would have no reason to fly to PTP first to then go to mainland France as PTP (while not a member of Schengen) maintains the same border restrictions, quarantine requirements, etc. that mainland France does. If you are a French citizen, who wishes to visit family, you may as well just fly directly to mainland France.
Brickell305 wrote:Aisak wrote:The only drawback is that IB operated with 5th freedom rights. The flights were tag-ons from the MAD-MIA. Schedule wise this was not ideal as those intra-America flights had to be coordinated with MIA-MAD departures and MAD-MIA arrivals. At the end of that CAM minihub, there were 2xA319 based in MIA for the operation. It ended sadly due to transit visas required after 9/11. Most destinations started non-stop flight to MAD instead.
AF on the other hand can fly unrestrictedly from several destinations ex-MIA as they are French territories. Some other might not be, but can be flown using 5th freedom rights tag-on with the CDG-MIA flights.
The MIA-PAP-PTP-FDF-CAY flight does not connect to AF's CDG-MIA flight. The outbound from MIA leaves at 8:30 am before the CDG flight arrives in MIA and the inbound flight to MIA returns at 8:35pm after the return flight from MIA to CDG has already left. In fact, both PTP and FDF have more service to Paris than MIA does and as such there is no need for people to connect via MIA. For the PAP crowd, AF connects them to Paris via PTP, not MIA. The MIA- French Antilles flight exists primarily to serve the VFR French Caribbean market demand to/from MIA and between the territories.
ContinentalEWR wrote:Brickell305 wrote:ContinentalEWR wrote:
This is a route targeting French citizens in the NY area and a way to provide a solution to travel for those not able to go to France with ease and perhaps reunite with family, or as French citizens, have a destination a tiny bit closer to NY. These are not destinations Americans typically go to.
No, it's not. NYC-PTP is a tourist route. While it is true that PTP (and I'll include FDF as well) don't get many American tourists, they definitely do draw a niche crowd and NYC is the prime source market for that. DY knew that when they flew the route and B6 realized that as well when they decided to launch.
The French citizens thing makes absolutely zero sense as they would have no reason to fly to PTP first to then go to mainland France as PTP (while not a member of Schengen) maintains the same border restrictions, quarantine requirements, etc. that mainland France does. If you are a French citizen, who wishes to visit family, you may as well just fly directly to mainland France.
No, that's not what I am saying. Some French nationals in the US, and NY in particular, may opt to go to Guadeloupe in lieu of a trip to France, not fly JFK-PTP to get to Paris. If you're going to trash my comment, please at least read it, or don't comment with an idiotic post.
The DY prompted B6 yes, but the market is small and niche.
Brickell305 wrote:2. Entry to Guadeloupe is no less restricted than entry into mainland France. It's no easier to travel to PTP than it is to travel to mainland France. In fact, due to the limited number of flights to PTP, it's actually more difficult./
nicode wrote:Maybe via SDQ ?.
Toinou wrote:Brickell305 wrote:2. Entry to Guadeloupe is no less restricted than entry into mainland France. It's no easier to travel to PTP than it is to travel to mainland France. In fact, due to the limited number of flights to PTP, it's actually more difficult./
You are right to say that it's not easier (in the current situation or at any moment) to go from NYC (or Montreal) to French Caribbean. That being said, I still think that there is a market (not necessarily the main one) with French people traveling to see their relatives in PTP rather than going to mainland France. Some people may take the opportunity to shoot two birds with one stone : see the relatives and go to a sunny place.
Brickell305 wrote:Toinou wrote:Brickell305 wrote:2. Entry to Guadeloupe is no less restricted than entry into mainland France. It's no easier to travel to PTP than it is to travel to mainland France. In fact, due to the limited number of flights to PTP, it's actually more difficult./
You are right to say that it's not easier (in the current situation or at any moment) to go from NYC (or Montreal) to French Caribbean. That being said, I still think that there is a market (not necessarily the main one) with French people traveling to see their relatives in PTP rather than going to mainland France. Some people may take the opportunity to shoot two birds with one stone : see the relatives and go to a sunny place.
Yeah, I'm sure there must be some French people living in NYC who can tell their family back in mainland France to meet them in PTP instead of them visiting them in mainland France but how big would that market really be? And also if you're talking about them having family that lives permanently in PTP, FDF, etc. that's also fairly unlikely. The average mainland French person does not have familial ties to people living in the French Caribbean. The reverse however is different where most French Caribbean natives do have family in mainland France.
AntonioMartin wrote:At some point I think Air France used to fly PTP-SJU, when I was about 8 years old....
LAX772LR wrote:stl07 wrote:I always found AF's ATL/MIA-French Caribbean routes to be interesting since they are in DL's turf
But it's really not. These aren't about business traffic or American beach-goers; these are (and for decades have been) targeted almost exclusively at Francophonic VFR traffic.
DL's got no hand in that; fairly certain that they don't even codeshare on these services.adamblang wrote:To be honest, I'm surprised the YUL-PTP service didn't already exist.
Same!
FGITD wrote:For curiosity’s sake, what exactly would prevent AF from being able to fly pax from their South American stations, to North American stations, via the French Caribbean stops? Say GIG-JFK, stopping in FDF?
Probably wouldn’t make any money and given codeshares/JVs it wouldn’t make much sense, so just a question of theoretical feasibility.
Great to see the expansion though, it’s always fun to see a station served by only wide bodies…and an a320
Chasensfo wrote:.....I wonder if routes to MIA will re-start in the future, it was cool when Air France 737-300s and Iberia DC-9-34s had the Caribbean networks out of there.
FGITD wrote:For curiosity’s sake, what exactly would prevent AF from being able to fly pax from their South American stations, to North American stations, via the French Caribbean stops? Say GIG-JFK, stopping in FDF?
Probably wouldn’t make any money and given codeshares/JVs it wouldn’t make much sense, so just a question of theoretical feasibility.
Great to see the expansion though, it’s always fun to see a station served by only wide bodies…and an a320
Brickell305 wrote:ContinentalEWR wrote:Brickell305 wrote:No, it's not. NYC-PTP is a tourist route. While it is true that PTP (and I'll include FDF as well) don't get many American tourists, they definitely do draw a niche crowd and NYC is the prime source market for that. DY knew that when they flew the route and B6 realized that as well when they decided to launch.
The French citizens thing makes absolutely zero sense as they would have no reason to fly to PTP first to then go to mainland France as PTP (while not a member of Schengen) maintains the same border restrictions, quarantine requirements, etc. that mainland France does. If you are a French citizen, who wishes to visit family, you may as well just fly directly to mainland France.
No, that's not what I am saying. Some French nationals in the US, and NY in particular, may opt to go to Guadeloupe in lieu of a trip to France, not fly JFK-PTP to get to Paris. If you're going to trash my comment, please at least read it, or don't comment with an idiotic post.
The DY prompted B6 yes, but the market is small and niche.
And even with that clarification, it still doesn't make much sense.
1. The number of French citizens living in NYC isn't that big.
2. Entry to Guadeloupe is no less restricted than entry into mainland France. It's no easier to travel to PTP than it is to travel to mainland France. In fact, due to the limited number of flights to PTP, it's actually more difficult.
3. While a niche market, American tourism to the French Antilles very much does exist. They are very much marketing these services to Americans: https://www.guadeloupe-islands.com/
Toinou wrote:Brickell305 wrote:Toinou wrote:You are right to say that it's not easier (in the current situation or at any moment) to go from NYC (or Montreal) to French Caribbean. That being said, I still think that there is a market (not necessarily the main one) with French people traveling to see their relatives in PTP rather than going to mainland France. Some people may take the opportunity to shoot two birds with one stone : see the relatives and go to a sunny place.
Yeah, I'm sure there must be some French people living in NYC who can tell their family back in mainland France to meet them in PTP instead of them visiting them in mainland France but how big would that market really be? And also if you're talking about them having family that lives permanently in PTP, FDF, etc. that's also fairly unlikely. The average mainland French person does not have familial ties to people living in the French Caribbean. The reverse however is different where most French Caribbean natives do have family in mainland France.
Just some complements to my idea. From what I found, French in NYC may be around 35'000 and about 3x that number around Montreal. That's not a small number.
Then, as you did understand, I talked about people from mainland France taking the occasion to go to the Caribbean, which are hugely popular with French holidaymakers. The question of having relatives there is not that impossible : French civil servants are transferred all around the country, and that includes to some extant oversea territories, so to probability that this happen is not negligible.
Once again, I will never tell this would be the main market for those flights but I guess that with the right marketing, like using French expats medias, it can add to the success.
ContinentalEWR wrote:Toinou wrote:Brickell305 wrote:
Yeah, I'm sure there must be some French people living in NYC who can tell their family back in mainland France to meet them in PTP instead of them visiting them in mainland France but how big would that market really be? And also if you're talking about them having family that lives permanently in PTP, FDF, etc. that's also fairly unlikely. The average mainland French person does not have familial ties to people living in the French Caribbean. The reverse however is different where most French Caribbean natives do have family in mainland France.
Just some complements to my idea. From what I found, French in NYC may be around 35'000 and about 3x that number around Montreal. That's not a small number.
Then, as you did understand, I talked about people from mainland France taking the occasion to go to the Caribbean, which are hugely popular with French holidaymakers. The question of having relatives there is not that impossible : French civil servants are transferred all around the country, and that includes to some extant oversea territories, so to probability that this happen is not negligible.
Once again, I will never tell this would be the main market for those flights but I guess that with the right marketing, like using French expats medias, it can add to the success.
Well said.
robleroy121721 wrote:AntonioMartin wrote:At some point I think Air France used to fly PTP-SJU, when I was about 8 years old....
I miss those days
JetAwayDrew wrote:This is kind of off topic, but I’ve got two questions. One, how are these flights typically staffed? I’m assuming the crews fly something like CDG-JFK-PTP-JFK-CDG. Second, does AF serve meals in both cabins on these flights? Thanks.
lesfalls wrote:FGITD wrote:For curiosity’s sake, what exactly would prevent AF from being able to fly pax from their South American stations, to North American stations, via the French Caribbean stops? Say GIG-JFK, stopping in FDF?
Probably wouldn’t make any money and given codeshares/JVs it wouldn’t make much sense, so just a question of theoretical feasibility.
Great to see the expansion though, it’s always fun to see a station served by only wide bodies…and an a320
If they can get the 5th freedom rights then yes. In the 70s AF flew JFK-GDL-PVR as a 5th freedom (in addition to JFK-PTP by AF so this is a "restatement of service").
JetAwayDrew wrote:This is kind of off topic, but I’ve got two questions. One, how are these flights typically staffed? I’m assuming the crews fly something like CDG-JFK-PTP-JFK-CDG. Second, does AF serve meals in both cabins on these flights? Thanks.