Air France KLM News and Discussion Thread - 2021

inkjet7 · Wed Feb 24, 2021 7:37 am

On February 23 the first E295 was delivered: https://www.embraercommercialaviation.c ... -e-jet-e2/
Number two is planned for February 26. Two 737-700's have been WFU: PH-BGN and PH-BGO. PH-BGP will follow soon.

AOMlover · Wed Feb 24, 2021 7:50 am

New safety video for AF ! I really like it a lot !

https://youtu.be/NhA0aL105Nw

SpeedbirdDan · Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:42 am

Love the new AF safety video too! Tres chic! Can't wait to fly on AF again!

FB330 · Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:01 pm

Clear sign that the E295 will replace the 737-700s. It was always suggested but many thought they would replace the 190s.

In reality, with 25 on order, I see them totally replacing the 700’s, some early 800’s and maybe the older 190’s.

Very much depends on the airline’s expectations of passenger numbers...

inkjet7 · Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:15 pm

FB330 wrote:
Clear sign that the E295 will replace the 737-700s. It was always suggested but many thought they would replace the 190s.

Pre-Covid, they would replace E190's. A list of registrations was available on Dutch forum scramble.nl. Post Covid things have obviously changed. I'm sure we will see more changes going forward.

frigatebird · Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:45 pm

inkjet7 wrote:
FB330 wrote:
Clear sign that the E295 will replace the 737-700s. It was always suggested but many thought they would replace the 190s.

Pre-Covid, they would replace E190's. A list of registrations was available on Dutch forum scramble.nl. Post Covid things have obviously changed. I'm sure we will see more changes going forward.

Indeed. It was actually announced by KLM management the E295's would replace E190's rather then 73G's. This was because the unions smelled trouble (replacing mainline 4 FA 73G routes with 3 FA Cityhopper E295 didn't go well with them). But as you say, post covid things change... and now 73G are returned to lessors and E190 leases extended :spin:

But there is not much the unions can do about it. KLM must cut costs, the main condition for government support. And the E295 will be an important aircraft in this regard. And honestly, I like the E-jets a lot more than the 737s, so bring them on :bigthumbsup:

EMBSPBR · Wed Feb 24, 2021 2:06 pm

inkjet7 wrote:
On February 23 the first E295 was delivered: https://www.embraercommercialaviation.c ... -e-jet-e2/
Number two is planned for February 26. Two 737-700's have been WFU: PH-BGN and PH-BGO. PH-BGP will follow soon.

Full colors pictures here:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1455939&p=22664965#p22664965

FB330 · Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:07 pm

What is the delivery schedule of the E295s then and is there any clarity/reg list on scramble showing the latest view of retirements?

Have to agree - love the Embraers. The only downside being last on and fighting for bin space.

EMBSPBR · Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:05 pm

FB330 wrote:
Have to agree - love the Embraers.
The only downside being last on and fighting for bin space.

No longer ...
Wheels first bins !

inkjet7 · Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:25 pm

FB330 wrote:
What is the delivery schedule of the E295s then and is there any clarity/reg list on scramble showing the latest view of retirements?

See above. Three 73G's so far. Rumour has it that the four extra E295's will help to accelerate the retirement of KLM 737-700's..

PANAMsterdam · Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:42 pm

But the 737-700's are operated by KLM and the Embrear fleet by KLM Cityhopper. Is that going to cause any trouble staff wise?

Flanker7 · Wed Feb 24, 2021 7:56 pm

PANAMsterdam wrote:
But the 737-700's are operated by KLM and the Embrear fleet by KLM Cityhopper. Is that going to cause any trouble staff wise?

No, quite number of mainline cabin crew have been on a voluntary basis asked to go and work for KLC .

FlyingHonu001 · Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:54 pm

PANAMsterdam wrote:
But the 737-700's are operated by KLM and the Embrear fleet by KLM Cityhopper. Is that going to cause any trouble staff wise?

Technically Cityhopper operates as a seperate company within the KLM brand, so cabin crew from the 737 fleet for example have different contracts than their colleagues at Cityhopper. However they do allow temporary placements I believe to prevent redundancy

inkjet7 · Wed Feb 24, 2021 9:00 pm

Dutch magazine "Luchtvaartnieuws" reports that a total of seven E295's is expected to be delivered to KLM in 2021.

sevenair · Fri Feb 26, 2021 9:10 pm

Loving the new safety video. I'm not sure, but is the lady the same one from the "France is in the air" safety video from a few years back? It looks like her, but she sounds different.

Blerg · Sat Feb 27, 2021 10:40 am

KLM will replace Transavia on AMS-BEG starting from May 13, initially as 3 weekly and then going daily from June. They will use E90 on the route.

https://www.exyuaviation.com/2021/02/kl ... rvice.html

Air France has scheduled the resumption of its CDG-BEG flights from the beginning of the summer season. Flights to operate three times per week. They are already loaded in the system.

mercure1 · Sat Feb 27, 2021 4:22 pm

Air France Industries will expand its Orly MRO facilities where it currently employs 3,000 with a new workshop designed to expand engine overhaul capacity on behalf of the group. New facility is expected be open in 2023.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EvLUgzUXEAU ... name=large

A330Inter · Sat Feb 27, 2021 4:29 pm

Blerg wrote:
KLM will replace Transavia on AMS-BEG starting from May 13, initially as 3 weekly and then going daily from June. They will use E90 on the route.

https://www.exyuaviation.com/2021/02/kl ... rvice.html

Air France has scheduled the resumption of its CDG-BEG flights from the beginning of the summer season. Flights to operate three times per week. They are already loaded in the system.

Great opportunity for a KLM-JU codeshare there, complementing AF's one at CDG and offering all the possible connections to North America

Blerg · Sat Feb 27, 2021 4:56 pm

A330Inter wrote:
Blerg wrote:
KLM will replace Transavia on AMS-BEG starting from May 13, initially as 3 weekly and then going daily from June. They will use E90 on the route.

https://www.exyuaviation.com/2021/02/kl ... rvice.html

Air France has scheduled the resumption of its CDG-BEG flights from the beginning of the summer season. Flights to operate three times per week. They are already loaded in the system.

Great opportunity for a KLM-JU codeshare there, complementing AF's one at CDG and offering all the possible connections to North America

Even though this is good news, what annoys me is that KL and JU will leave AMS roughly 5 minutes apart. I guess they couldn't make a better schedule since they need JU's morning departure from BEG and KL's return flight from BEG.

FlyingHonu001 · Sat Feb 27, 2021 7:53 pm

Starting next monday, Airport Ticket Office for Transavia at AMS departures terminal will be staffed by groundhandler Viggo
https://www.viggo.eu/en/viggo

KL already has sold part of its ground services to Viggo, as they will take over full-service ramp operations for Transavia in April

ro1960 · Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:10 am

mercure1 wrote:
Air France Industries will expand its Orly MRO facilities where it currently employs 3,000 with a new workshop designed to expand engine overhaul capacity on behalf of the group. New facility is expected be open in 2023.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EvLUgzUXEAU ... name=large

Great looking building. The "crevette" seems to be making a prominent comeback in AF's branding. I like that.

PANAMsterdam · Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:07 pm

What's up with 3 simultaneous KLM flights out of BKK?

Currently in the air:
KL848 (B789)
KL804 (B772)
KL812 (B77W)

Are these all cargo flights or did so many fellow countrymen ignore the advice of our government to not go on holiday because of the pandemic?

factsonly · Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:42 pm

PANAMsterdam wrote:
What's up with 3 simultaneous KLM flights out of BKK?

Currently in the air:
KL848 (B789)
KL804 (B772)
KL812 (B77W)

Are these all cargo flights or did so many fellow countrymen ignore the advice of our government to not go on holiday because of the pandemic?

This has been the standard KL schedule to/from the Far East for the last six months, flights are regular pax/cargo services.

- AMS-BKK-HKG 5x weekly
- AMS-BKK-TPE 3x weekly
- AMS-BKK-MNL 6x weekly
- AMS-BKK-KUL 2x weekly
- AMS-BKK-CGK 3x weekly

KLM at BKK 38x weekly total

Source: KLM

FlyingHonu001 · Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:55 pm

PANAMsterdam wrote:
What's up with 3 simultaneous KLM flights out of BKK?

Currently in the air:
KL848 (B789)
KL804 (B772)
KL812 (B77W)

Are these all cargo flights or did so many fellow countrymen ignore the advice of our government to not go on holiday because of the pandemic?

These are flights coming out HKG, MNL, KUL respectively going via BKK. Could still be for business travellers or connecting pax going onwards via AMS

PANAMsterdam · Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:31 pm

factsonly wrote:
This has been the standard KL schedule to/from the Far East for the last six months, flights are regular pax/cargo services.

- AMS-BKK-HKG 5x weekly
- AMS-BKK-TPE 3x weekly
- AMS-BKK-MNL 6x weekly
- AMS-BKK-KUL 2x weekly
- AMS-BKK-CGK 3x weekly

KLM at BKK 38x weekly total
Source: KLM

FlyingHonu001 wrote:
These are flights coming out HKG, MNL, KUL respectively going via BKK. Could still be for business travellers or connecting pax going onwards via AMS

Thanks a lot for the explanation. I'm having flashbacks to the 'good 'ol days' when airlines made multiple stopovers on their way to 'the orient'.
Any pictures available of 3 KLM birds at BKK airport next to each other? Would be quite a sight!

NYCAAer · Mon Mar 01, 2021 1:20 am

sevenair wrote:
Loving the new safety video. I'm not sure, but is the lady the same one from the "France is in the air" safety video from a few years back? It looks like her, but she sounds different.

Yes, it’s the same actress. She’s grown up and matured a bit since the last video. She’s a French-Spanish actress named Dorcas Coppin. Her hair is pinned up (the French say attaché) and the red lipstick makes her look very different. I had to look it up on LCI the French news channel to see if it was the same woman.

Blerg · Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:07 am

NYCAAer wrote:
sevenair wrote:
Loving the new safety video. I'm not sure, but is the lady the same one from the "France is in the air" safety video from a few years back? It looks like her, but she sounds different.

Yes, it’s the same actress. She’s grown up and matured a bit since the last video. She’s a French-Spanish actress named Dorcas Coppin. Her hair is pinned up (the French say attaché) and the red lipstick makes her look very different. I had to look it up on LCI the French news channel to see if it was the same woman.

I assume the guy is also a model/actor? I know it was totally stupid but for a moment I actually thought they were both cabin crew.Blonde moment I guess.

AOMlover · Mon Mar 01, 2021 7:14 am

Blerg wrote:
NYCAAer wrote:
sevenair wrote:
Loving the new safety video. I'm not sure, but is the lady the same one from the "France is in the air" safety video from a few years back? It looks like her, but she sounds different.

Yes, it’s the same actress. She’s grown up and matured a bit since the last video. She’s a French-Spanish actress named Dorcas Coppin. Her hair is pinned up (the French say attaché) and the red lipstick makes her look very different. I had to look it up on LCI the French news channel to see if it was the same woman.

I assume the guy is also a model/actor? I know it was totally stupid but for a moment I actually thought they were both cabin crew.Blonde moment I guess.

Yes, he's also an actor/model named Yoann Pigny Fournereau. The other crew members taking part to the "grand final" at the Eiffel Tower are real AF crew though.

MrBren · Wed Mar 03, 2021 10:43 am

An inside look at the making of the new in-flight safety video | Air France

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-1FGPzJXZg

76er · Wed Mar 03, 2021 12:04 pm

FlyingHonu001 wrote:
PANAMsterdam wrote:
But the 737-700's are operated by KLM and the Embrear fleet by KLM Cityhopper. Is that going to cause any trouble staff wise?

Technically Cityhopper operates as a seperate company within the KLM brand, so cabin crew from the 737 fleet for example have different contracts than their colleagues at Cityhopper. However they do allow temporary placements I believe to prevent redundancy

It is no surprise that relatively most redundancies at mainline KL will be with the Purser (shorthaul lead FA) group. And since the cabincrew unions forgot to properly secure the last-in-first-out principle in their CLA it means Pursers of all ages and seniority will be made redundant. How many exactly will a.o. be dependant on the number of voluntary departures. Sour grapes for these guys and galls, as the selection process for this position is grueling.
Can’t blame KL, the move to fewer 737s and more E-jets reduces costs significantly. Just the unions were caught napping. It will be interesting to see how the pilot union VNV is going to solve its max seats problem on the 195E2. As of now total pax count is limited until both parties come to an agreement.

FlyingHonu001 · Wed Mar 03, 2021 12:50 pm

76er wrote:
It will be interesting to see how the pilot union VNV is going to solve its max seats problem on the 195E2. As of now total pax count is limited until both parties come to an agreement.

What do you mean by that one? That they are not allowed with max. pax with the E295? They already started commercial flights this week? :confused:

frigatebird · Wed Mar 03, 2021 1:00 pm

FlyingHonu001 wrote:
76er wrote:
It will be interesting to see how the pilot union VNV is going to solve its max seats problem on the 195E2. As of now total pax count is limited until both parties come to an agreement.

What do you mean by that one? That they are not allowed with max. pax with the E295? They already started commercial flights this week?

Correct, for now KL cannot seat more than 110 passengers in the E295.

When the 787-10 entered service at KL there was a similar situation, KL had to block 4 business class seats until they had an agreement with the unions (I actually never heard when they did :scratchchin:

)

76er · Wed Mar 03, 2021 1:11 pm

That is correct sir, AFAIK capacity is limited to 110 seats until KL and VNV-DALPA can come to an agreement (=higher payscale for the EMB pilots). Remember there has been a capacity creep over the last two decades when it comes to mainline vs regional flying. In the old days the max Cityhopper was allowed to fly was the F28, and when the F100 first arrived was it flown by mainline crew.
Compare this to e.g. DL, where the A220s are flown by DL pilots.

(Edit: Frigate beat me to it.. )

Ironic: when KL later ordered the smaller E175 payscales stayed the same...

Eikie · Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:10 pm

Ironic: when KL later ordered the smaller E175 payscales stayed the same...

That's because the play is based on a certain percentage of bigger to smaller aircraft.

If, for instance, more than 50% of the total has > 80 Seats, the pay is X.
If 75% is bigger, the pay is X times 1,25, etc. (Made up numbers)

The (relative) small amount of e175's did not change the then current percentage enough to fall into another bracket and therefore didn't influence the pay.

Contributing factor to the stale mate is that the above "formula" doesn't account for >110 seats. The CLA states Cityhopper flies planes with max of 110 seats so the formula can't be applied.

At the moment almost no airplane will be filled to the max anyway, so KLM can still profit from the lower costs and later this year they can start the discussions again.

LAXintl · Sat Mar 06, 2021 5:05 am

Vandalised 772 getting cleaned up

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EvumJT7WgAM ... ame=medium

frigatebird · Sat Mar 06, 2021 8:48 am

LAXintl wrote:
Vandalised 772 getting cleaned up

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EvumJT7WgAM ... ame=medium

Some people would do anything to get an Air France plane cleaned :duck:

Sorry couldn’t resist this :old:

one

ro1960 · Sun Mar 07, 2021 6:41 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Vandalised 772 getting cleaned up

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EvumJT7WgAM ... ame=medium

Green washing? :mrgreen:

yani · Sun Mar 07, 2021 11:08 pm

AF226 CDG-DEL A350 emergency landing in LBSF due to an unruly PAX:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-bulg ... SKBN2AY0HS

LAXintl · Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:22 am

German asset manager, Dr Peters Group is seeking US$34.9 million in UK court for compensation from Air France over a failure to redeliver Airbus A380 aircraft in return conditions in accordance with the terms of their agreement.

Air France clashes with German lessor in $34.9mn lawsuit
https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... mn-lawsuit

ro1960 · Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:29 pm

On a lighter note... Balmain’s fashion designer Olivier Rousteing used Air France’s 777 and A350 at CDG for their latest show.

https://youtu.be/V831DUHHUwI

It’s interesting to note that Balmain never designed uniforms for AF unlike many other French designers. They’ve been designing SQ’s uniforms for more than 50 years, though.

FlyingHonu001 · Sun Mar 14, 2021 6:11 am

Much like DL, now AF has also started trials for a COVID-free corridor

...Air France has started testing a health passport system for passengers on selected flights, who will be required to show proof of vaccination or negative Covid-19 test results.

French Transport Minister Jean-Baptiste Djebbari announced on Thursday that the one-month trial would take place on Air France flights to Martinique and Guadeloupe. The passport will work through an app called ICC AOKpass, which those on the plane will have to present.

“The goal is to see if it works well in real-time,” he told RMC radio, adding that the trial “could offer a preview, or at least a large-scale test, of a future travel pass.”...

Source: https://www.rt.com/news/517828-air-fran ... -passport/
https://corporate.airfrance.com/en/pres ... st-results

Blerg · Sun Mar 14, 2021 6:21 am

Do we know what vaccines they will accept on those flights? Yesterday we saw the scandal where the EU refused to recognize Chinese and Russian vaccines. Hopefully AF is smarter than that, especially since they are in the same alliance with Russian and Chinese carriers.

ro1960 · Sun Mar 14, 2021 7:33 am

Blerg wrote:
Do we know what vaccines they will accept on those flights? Yesterday we saw the scandal where the EU refused to recognize Chinese and Russian vaccines. Hopefully AF is smarter than that, especially since they are in the same alliance with Russian and Chinese carriers.

What scandal are you referring to? I didn't see or hear anything in the usual French or International news outlets.

patrickw421 · Sun Mar 14, 2021 7:42 am

ro1960 wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Do we know what vaccines they will accept on those flights? Yesterday we saw the scandal where the EU refused to recognize Chinese and Russian vaccines. Hopefully AF is smarter than that, especially since they are in the same alliance with Russian and Chinese carriers.

What scandal are you referring to? I didn't see or hear anything in the usual news French or International outlets.

https://www.euronews.com/2021/03/12/eu- ... ccinations

I think this is the news about it but I think it is only logical for AF to follow the same protocol if they are using the trial to test real situation if the government is asking for EMA approved vaccine only.

For the Russian one I don't think it would be a huge problem since EU was saying they didn't receive any application and hence in no position to approve it. For the Chinese one however, their data isn't even on any peer reviewed academic journal yet so I'm not sure.

ro1960 · Sun Mar 14, 2021 7:56 am

patrickw421 wrote:
ro1960 wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Do we know what vaccines they will accept on those flights? Yesterday we saw the scandal where the EU refused to recognize Chinese and Russian vaccines. Hopefully AF is smarter than that, especially since they are in the same alliance with Russian and Chinese carriers.

What scandal are you referring to? I didn't see or hear anything in the usual news French or International outlets.

https://www.euronews.com/2021/03/12/eu- ... ccinations

I think this is the news about it but I think it is only logical for AF to follow the same protocol if they are using the trial to test real situation if the government is asking for EMA approved vaccine only.

For the Russian one I don't think it would be a huge problem since EU was saying they didn't receive any application and hence in no position to approve it. For the Chinese one however, their data isn't even on any peer reviewed academic journal yet so I'm not sure.

So we're not talking about a "scandal" but rather about a measured decision.

blandy62 · Sun Mar 14, 2021 8:03 am

FlyingHonu001 wrote:
PANAMsterdam wrote:
What's up with 3 simultaneous KLM flights out of BKK?

Currently in the air:
KL848 (B789)
KL804 (B772)
KL812 (B77W)

Are these all cargo flights or did so many fellow countrymen ignore the advice of our government to not go on holiday because of the pandemic?

These are flights coming out HKG, MNL, KUL respectively going via BKK. Could still be for business travellers or connecting pax going onwards via AMS

Flight to HKG is routed via BKK, they change crew at BKk so they don’t get quarantine in HkG

Blerg · Sun Mar 14, 2021 8:55 am

ro1960 wrote:
patrickw421 wrote:
ro1960 wrote:

What scandal are you referring to? I didn't see or hear anything in the usual news French or International outlets.

https://www.euronews.com/2021/03/12/eu- ... ccinations

I think this is the news about it but I think it is only logical for AF to follow the same protocol if they are using the trial to test real situation if the government is asking for EMA approved vaccine only.

For the Russian one I don't think it would be a huge problem since EU was saying they didn't receive any application and hence in no position to approve it. For the Chinese one however, their data isn't even on any peer reviewed academic journal yet so I'm not sure.

So we're not talking about a "scandal" but rather about a measured decision.

It's a scandal because they are bringing politics into the vaccine discussion. How can they not recognize vaccines which are already in use in countries like Hungary or Slovakia? Poland is already negotiating with China to get their vaccine since the EU is incompetent at securing the necessary doses. Luckily the Covid passport proposal first has to clear the EU Commission where several countries such as Italy, Austria, Poland, Hungary... will object.

FlyingHonu001 · Sun Mar 14, 2021 9:12 am

Two return-to-home diversions in one saturday by KL Cityhopper, reasons unknown

KL1783 E75L AMS - HAM
https://fr24.com/data/aircraft/ph-exu#2712bc23

KL1503 E190 AMS - VLC
https://fr24.com/data/aircraft/ph-ezc#2712604f

5427247845 · Sun Mar 14, 2021 9:13 am

Blerg wrote:
ro1960 wrote:
patrickw421 wrote:

https://www.euronews.com/2021/03/12/eu- ... ccinations

I think this is the news about it but I think it is only logical for AF to follow the same protocol if they are using the trial to test real situation if the government is asking for EMA approved vaccine only.

For the Russian one I don't think it would be a huge problem since EU was saying they didn't receive any application and hence in no position to approve it. For the Chinese one however, their data isn't even on any peer reviewed academic journal yet so I'm not sure.

So we're not talking about a "scandal" but rather about a measured decision.

It's a scandal because they are bringing politics into the vaccine discussion. How can they not recognize vaccines which are already in use in countries like Hungary or Slovakia? Poland is already negotiating with China to get their vaccine since the EU is incompetent at securing the necessary doses. Luckily the Covid passport proposal first has to clear the EU Commission where several countries such as Italy, Austria, Poland, Hungary... will object.

China isn’t accepting vaccinated people from other countries either. And you clearly don’t (want to) understand that Hungary and Slovakia are deliberately undermining the EU by taking non-accepted vaccines by the EMA. And all member states are also accountable for the EU vaccin purchase, but that is something for another thread

blandy62 · Sun Mar 14, 2021 9:31 am

marcelh wrote:
Blerg wrote:
ro1960 wrote:

So we're not talking about a "scandal" but rather about a measured decision.

It's a scandal because they are bringing politics into the vaccine discussion. How can they not recognize vaccines which are already in use in countries like Hungary or Slovakia? Poland is already negotiating with China to get their vaccine since the EU is incompetent at securing the necessary doses. Luckily the Covid passport proposal first has to clear the EU Commission where several countries such as Italy, Austria, Poland, Hungary... will object.

China isn’t accepting vaccinated people from other countries either. And you clearly don’t (want to) understand that Hungary and Slovakia are deliberately undermining the EU by taking non-accepted vaccines by the EMA. And all member states are also accountable for the EU vaccin purchase, but that is something for another thread

Well China has issue new guideline for people who need to go to China for manufacturing. Visa will be issued if and only if you get vaccinated with the Sonivac vaccin! So yes politics is clearly being brought into this mess. Not really that it is surprising m

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