Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

  • 1
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7
  • 8
  • 9
 
winter
Posts: 82
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:01 am

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri May 14, 2021 4:18 am

piedmontf284000 wrote:
Elkadad313 wrote:
glbltrvlr wrote:

The rendering here shows T1 and T2 as a connected structure, so it would make perfect sense to have single point screening in the new T2. I wouldn't hold my breath though. The plan is to start with the satellite terminals first, so it will be decades before they get around to the new T2 common check-in area.

https://www.ord21.com/home/Pages/default.aspx

The rendering (https://www.ord21.com/home/Pages/default.aspx), including satellites 1 & 2 (T-5 not shown but counted), appears to show only 168 gates (based on my eyeball count). According to Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O%27Hare_ ... 91%20gates) O'Hare presently has 191 gates. When 9R - 27L is completed, demand for gate space will, hopefully post-pandemic, increase substantially. Billion$ for a decrease in gates does not make sense. Is the rendering not accurate? What am I missing?


O'Hare currently has 191 gates of which they will lose 27 when Terminal 2 is demolished and 8 gates to Concourse B & C (4 each) in Terminal 1 for the connection expansion to OGT, which will bring them down to 156. T-5 is adding 10 in their expansion and the Concourse L stinger is adding 3. When the OGT is completed in the 30's, there will be 16 gates added to Concourse C or if you prefer Satellite 1; 24 gates will be added to an all new Concourse (D?) or Satellite 2 if you prefer. Finally the OGT will add 13 gates which will be connected to Concourse B. Some of those 13 might be considered Concourse B which will make the total number of gates in the OGT less. So with all the expansion, O'Hare will see net gain of 31 gates to bring it to a grand total of 222. Now some of these gate totals might change either positively or negatively based on actual construction, costs, demand, etc. However, I do believe that if they reduce the expansion of OGT it will still have the ability to expand later on should the city want/need it.


Huge thank you for this write up!

Sorry, but, this still sounds like an incredibly complex and very expansive way to get net 18 extra gates(discounting the 13 new gates at Concourse L and T5 which are easy extensions).
 
jcwr56
Posts: 1042
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:36 am

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri May 14, 2021 10:37 am

piedmontf284000 wrote:
Elkadad313 wrote:
glbltrvlr wrote:

The rendering here shows T1 and T2 as a connected structure, so it would make perfect sense to have single point screening in the new T2. I wouldn't hold my breath though. The plan is to start with the satellite terminals first, so it will be decades before they get around to the new T2 common check-in area.

https://www.ord21.com/home/Pages/default.aspx

The rendering (https://www.ord21.com/home/Pages/default.aspx), including satellites 1 & 2 (T-5 not shown but counted), appears to show only 168 gates (based on my eyeball count). According to Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O%27Hare_ ... 91%20gates) O'Hare presently has 191 gates. When 9R - 27L is completed, demand for gate space will, hopefully post-pandemic, increase substantially. Billion$ for a decrease in gates does not make sense. Is the rendering not accurate? What am I missing?


O'Hare currently has 191 gates of which they will lose 27 when Terminal 2 is demolished and 8 gates to Concourse B & C (4 each) in Terminal 1 for the connection expansion to OGT, which will bring them down to 156. T-5 is adding 10 in their expansion and the Concourse L stinger is adding 3. When the OGT is completed in the 30's, there will be 16 gates added to Concourse C or if you prefer Satellite 1; 24 gates will be added to an all new Concourse (D?) or Satellite 2 if you prefer. Finally the OGT will add 13 gates which will be connected to Concourse B. Some of those 13 might be considered Concourse B which will make the total number of gates in the OGT less. So with all the expansion, O'Hare will see net gain of 31 gates to bring it to a grand total of 222. Now some of these gate totals might change either positively or negatively based on actual construction, costs, demand, etc. However, I do believe that if they reduce the expansion of OGT it will still have the ability to expand later on should the city want/need it.


Finer point, T5 will have numerous MARS capable gates once completed. In the end it will have 34 operational gates (plus 4 hardstands) if scheduled a certain way for both wide and narrow bodies (domestic and international)
Last edited by jcwr56 on Fri May 14, 2021 10:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
jcwr56
Posts: 1042
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:36 am

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri May 14, 2021 10:38 am

winter wrote:
piedmontf284000 wrote:
Elkadad313 wrote:
The rendering (https://www.ord21.com/home/Pages/default.aspx), including satellites 1 & 2 (T-5 not shown but counted), appears to show only 168 gates (based on my eyeball count). According to Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O%27Hare_ ... 91%20gates) O'Hare presently has 191 gates. When 9R - 27L is completed, demand for gate space will, hopefully post-pandemic, increase substantially. Billion$ for a decrease in gates does not make sense. Is the rendering not accurate? What am I missing?


O'Hare currently has 191 gates of which they will lose 27 when Terminal 2 is demolished and 8 gates to Concourse B & C (4 each) in Terminal 1 for the connection expansion to OGT, which will bring them down to 156. T-5 is adding 10 in their expansion and the Concourse L stinger is adding 3. When the OGT is completed in the 30's, there will be 16 gates added to Concourse C or if you prefer Satellite 1; 24 gates will be added to an all new Concourse (D?) or Satellite 2 if you prefer. Finally the OGT will add 13 gates which will be connected to Concourse B. Some of those 13 might be considered Concourse B which will make the total number of gates in the OGT less. So with all the expansion, O'Hare will see net gain of 31 gates to bring it to a grand total of 222. Now some of these gate totals might change either positively or negatively based on actual construction, costs, demand, etc. However, I do believe that if they reduce the expansion of OGT it will still have the ability to expand later on should the city want/need it.


Huge thank you for this write up!

Sorry, but, this still sounds like an incredibly complex and very expansive way to get net 18 extra gates(discounting the 13 new gates at Concourse L and T5 which are easy extensions).


It's not about the gates, it's about flow and connectivity of passengers.
 
AAplat4life
Posts: 346
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:14 am

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri May 14, 2021 2:45 pm

jcwr56 wrote:
winter wrote:
piedmontf284000 wrote:

O'Hare currently has 191 gates of which they will lose 27 when Terminal 2 is demolished and 8 gates to Concourse B & C (4 each) in Terminal 1 for the connection expansion to OGT, which will bring them down to 156. T-5 is adding 10 in their expansion and the Concourse L stinger is adding 3. When the OGT is completed in the 30's, there will be 16 gates added to Concourse C or if you prefer Satellite 1; 24 gates will be added to an all new Concourse (D?) or Satellite 2 if you prefer. Finally the OGT will add 13 gates which will be connected to Concourse B. Some of those 13 might be considered Concourse B which will make the total number of gates in the OGT less. So with all the expansion, O'Hare will see net gain of 31 gates to bring it to a grand total of 222. Now some of these gate totals might change either positively or negatively based on actual construction, costs, demand, etc. However, I do believe that if they reduce the expansion of OGT it will still have the ability to expand later on should the city want/need it.


Huge thank you for this write up!

Sorry, but, this still sounds like an incredibly complex and very expansive way to get net 18 extra gates(discounting the 13 new gates at Concourse L and T5 which are easy extensions).


It's not about the gates, it's about flow and connectivity of passengers.


It’s also about the type of gates. With Star and oneworld operations moving to OGT, including AA and UA international arrivals, just adding on to the existing footprints will not be feasible. Still I’m skeptical that connectivity and passenger flow will become easier at ORD when OGT is finished, at least based on the limited details released to date. But the ship has sailed and both UA and AA are on board.
 
drdisque
Posts: 1461
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:57 am

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri May 14, 2021 3:47 pm

AAplat4life wrote:
jcwr56 wrote:
winter wrote:

Huge thank you for this write up!

Sorry, but, this still sounds like an incredibly complex and very expansive way to get net 18 extra gates(discounting the 13 new gates at Concourse L and T5 which are easy extensions).


It's not about the gates, it's about flow and connectivity of passengers.


It’s also about the type of gates. With Star and oneworld operations moving to OGT, including AA and UA international arrivals, just adding on to the existing footprints will not be feasible. Still I’m skeptical that connectivity and passenger flow will become easier at ORD when OGT is finished, at least based on the limited details released to date. But the ship has sailed and both UA and AA are on board.


Once complete, the vast majority of T1/2/3 -> T5 and vise versa connections will be eliminated.
 
AAplat4life
Posts: 346
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:14 am

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri May 14, 2021 4:18 pm

drdisque wrote:
AAplat4life wrote:
jcwr56 wrote:

It's not about the gates, it's about flow and connectivity of passengers.


It’s also about the type of gates. With Star and oneworld operations moving to OGT, including AA and UA international arrivals, just adding on to the existing footprints will not be feasible. Still I’m skeptical that connectivity and passenger flow will become easier at ORD when OGT is finished, at least based on the limited details released to date. But the ship has sailed and both UA and AA are on board.


Once complete, the vast majority of T1/2/3 -> T5 and vise versa connections will be eliminated.


I’m more concerned about connections and flow from OGT to much of T3 and the far reaches of B and C in T1. I don’t see an easy flow like at DEN, particularly with the Studio ORD design. At least T1 has moving walkways in the concourses, but T3 is clearly disadvantaged.
 
drdisque
Posts: 1461
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:57 am

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri May 14, 2021 4:45 pm

AAplat4life wrote:
drdisque wrote:
AAplat4life wrote:

It’s also about the type of gates. With Star and oneworld operations moving to OGT, including AA and UA international arrivals, just adding on to the existing footprints will not be feasible. Still I’m skeptical that connectivity and passenger flow will become easier at ORD when OGT is finished, at least based on the limited details released to date. But the ship has sailed and both UA and AA are on board.


Once complete, the vast majority of T1/2/3 -> T5 and vise versa connections will be eliminated.


I’m more concerned about connections and flow from OGT to much of T3 and the far reaches of B and C in T1. I don’t see an easy flow like at DEN, particularly with the Studio ORD design. At least T1 has moving walkways in the concourses, but T3 is clearly disadvantaged.


They actually recently removed the concourse moving walkways from T1 due to how they inhibited gate access and how full gate areas would back up to the moving walkway, completely blocking the regular walking path.

I'm sure landside and airside walkways from the OGT to T3 and T1 will be improved over the current ones between T2 and T1 and T3.
 
winter
Posts: 82
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:01 am

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri May 14, 2021 5:25 pm

jcwr56 wrote:
winter wrote:
piedmontf284000 wrote:

O'Hare currently has 191 gates of which they will lose 27 when Terminal 2 is demolished and 8 gates to Concourse B & C (4 each) in Terminal 1 for the connection expansion to OGT, which will bring them down to 156. T-5 is adding 10 in their expansion and the Concourse L stinger is adding 3. When the OGT is completed in the 30's, there will be 16 gates added to Concourse C or if you prefer Satellite 1; 24 gates will be added to an all new Concourse (D?) or Satellite 2 if you prefer. Finally the OGT will add 13 gates which will be connected to Concourse B. Some of those 13 might be considered Concourse B which will make the total number of gates in the OGT less. So with all the expansion, O'Hare will see net gain of 31 gates to bring it to a grand total of 222. Now some of these gate totals might change either positively or negatively based on actual construction, costs, demand, etc. However, I do believe that if they reduce the expansion of OGT it will still have the ability to expand later on should the city want/need it.


Huge thank you for this write up!

Sorry, but, this still sounds like an incredibly complex and very expansive way to get net 18 extra gates(discounting the 13 new gates at Concourse L and T5 which are easy extensions).


It's not about the gates, it's about flow and connectivity of passengers.


I understand that but we’ve also had the current T1/T3 - T5 transfers setup for 30 years and ORD hasn’t really lost out either, and net effect seems questionable at best for an $8 billion price tag.

If flow and connectivity were the only things at play you could build an airside APM connecting the Domestic Terminals to T5 for probably $1 billion at most. OGT just seems like the prior city admins expensive new vanity project.
 
MLIAA
Posts: 242
Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 11:08 pm

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri May 14, 2021 6:24 pm

winter wrote:
jcwr56 wrote:
winter wrote:

Huge thank you for this write up!

Sorry, but, this still sounds like an incredibly complex and very expansive way to get net 18 extra gates(discounting the 13 new gates at Concourse L and T5 which are easy extensions).


It's not about the gates, it's about flow and connectivity of passengers.


I understand that but we’ve also had the current T1/T3 - T5 transfers setup for 30 years and ORD hasn’t really lost out either, and net effect seems questionable at best for an $8 billion price tag.

If flow and connectivity were the only things at play you could build an airside APM connecting the Domestic Terminals to T5 for probably $1 billion at most. OGT just seems like the prior city admins expensive new vanity project.


It’s also about working the terminals westward to allow for western access off the Elgin-O’Hare and the new 490 project. Without the satellites there would be no way to get western access.

I think the flow would be best to allow AA/OW to use the new OGT and allow UA/Star to use the FIS-capable Satellite-1. They both seemed to have a similar number of gates, possibly more at S-1. This keeps the AA traffic towards the east side of the terminal core and the UA traffic towards the west side on S-1/C. I don’t think this is the current plan but it seems like a good idea to my uninformed mind.
A319 A320 A321 A332 B712 B722 B737 B738 B739 B744 B752 B763 B764 B772 B788 B789 MD80 S340 E140 E145 E170 E175 E195 CRJ2 CRJ7 CRJ9
 
HNL
Posts: 479
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2004 1:51 am

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri May 14, 2021 7:29 pm

AAplat4life wrote:
glbltrvlr wrote:
tootshibbard wrote:

You mind I ask where you got the info about the check-ins being centralized into the new Global T2? That would certainly be interesting as it would free up tons of room in T1 and T3. I would find this hard to believe this could be carried out though given that crush of drop-offs and cars that the new T2 would face. Not to mention the crowding by funneling all three terminals check-ins into the building.


The rendering here shows T1 and T2 as a connected structure, so it would make perfect sense to have single point screening in the new T2. I wouldn't hold my breath though. The plan is to start with the satellite terminals first, so it will be decades before they get around to the new T2 common check-in area.

https://www.ord21.com/home/Pages/default.aspx


It should be under a decade and this allows for some delays. The original announcements said that UA, AA and their alliance partners would consolidate operations in the new T2 global terminal. But designs were only preliminary and things can change. T2 construction is supposed to start in 2024 once T5 renovation is done and DL moves to T5.


Maybe the ATS System will be back in operation by the time Global T2 owns. Seems likely at this point. But maybe.
HNL - There's no place like it!
 
scaledesigns
Posts: 217
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:12 am

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri May 14, 2021 10:41 pm

jetskipper wrote:
gabik001 wrote:
LH9940 is scheduled to arrive today to ORD from BOS as a leg of flight MUC-TUS (MUC-KEF-YYR-BOS-ORD-TUS). It is a CRJ-900 D-ACKL (LH Cityline) scheduled @ 9:15a. Departure to TUS is set for 10:25am. Possibly no titles on her since she was put to storage on January.


Why waste the money with landing fees and possible delays at larger airports when ferrying? Why not clear customs at Bangor and stop for fuel in CMI or SPI? Is there a logistics reason?



I saw it land and it had titles still. LH has a base here and probably gets fuel at a cheaper cost than a small city. That would offset the landing costs of a CR900 at ORD, one of the higher cost airports in the USA.
F1 Tommy
 
SRQLOT
Posts: 635
Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2017 6:05 pm

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri May 14, 2021 11:41 pm

HNL wrote:
AAplat4life wrote:
glbltrvlr wrote:

The rendering here shows T1 and T2 as a connected structure, so it would make perfect sense to have single point screening in the new T2. I wouldn't hold my breath though. The plan is to start with the satellite terminals first, so it will be decades before they get around to the new T2 common check-in area.

https://www.ord21.com/home/Pages/default.aspx


It should be under a decade and this allows for some delays. The original announcements said that UA, AA and their alliance partners would consolidate operations in the new T2 global terminal. But designs were only preliminary and things can change. T2 construction is supposed to start in 2024 once T5 renovation is done and DL moves to T5.


Maybe the ATS System will be back in operation by the time Global T2 owns. Seems likely at this point. But maybe.



Obviously I'm not an engineer, but have been reading a bit about the ATS system, and I guess I still don't understand what is the hold up. It has been running on the tracks now for months, I saw the trains going last weekend while waiting to get picked up for almost 20 min due to the traffic. They were running consistent, I know the issue has been linking the old part to the new, so what are they afraid of? so are they not running all the way to the car rental facility? The trains falling off? Or people getting squished by the doors?
LO LH CL BA AZ WN UA DL AA B6 NK G4 F9
717 733/7/8/9/M8 744 752/3 763 772 788 319/20/21 332/3 M90 RJ85 CR9 Q400 E70/75/95 (PA28,152)
 
jayunited
Posts: 3505
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat May 15, 2021 12:35 am

winter wrote:

I understand that but we’ve also had the current T1/T3 - T5 transfers setup for 30 years and ORD hasn’t really lost out either, and net effect seems questionable at best for an $8 billion price tag.

If flow and connectivity were the only things at play you could build an airside APM connecting the Domestic Terminals to T5 for probably $1 billion at most. OGT just seems like the prior city admins expensive new vanity project.



Are you advocating for the status quo simply because it is how things have been for the past 30 years? I don't see how the OGT qualifies as a vanity project when it was clear there were passenger issues at ORD that needed to be address beyond the intersecting runways.

I think once the OGT is finished both UA and AA along with the city will have to spend billions more updating both terminal 1 and terminal 3. The current layout of both those terminals creates problems especially with the current narrowbody aircraft whose wings are much larger than the old classic 737s, 727s, MD80s, F100s. Both of these airlines at some point are going to have to spend some money to fully modernize O'Hare if they want O'Hare to remain relevant for the next 50 years or so.
 
winter
Posts: 82
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:01 am

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat May 15, 2021 1:01 am

jayunited wrote:
winter wrote:

I understand that but we’ve also had the current T1/T3 - T5 transfers setup for 30 years and ORD hasn’t really lost out either, and net effect seems questionable at best for an $8 billion price tag.

If flow and connectivity were the only things at play you could build an airside APM connecting the Domestic Terminals to T5 for probably $1 billion at most. OGT just seems like the prior city admins expensive new vanity project.



Are you advocating for the status quo simply because it is how things have been for the past 30 years? I don't see how the OGT qualifies as a vanity project when it was clear there were passenger issues at ORD that needed to be address beyond the intersecting runways.

I think once the OGT is finished both UA and AA along with the city will have to spend billions more updating both terminal 1 and terminal 3. The current layout of both those terminals creates problems especially with the current narrowbody aircraft whose wings are much larger than the old classic 737s, 727s, MD80s, F100s. Both of these airlines at some point are going to have to spend some money to fully modernize O'Hare if they want O'Hare to remain relevant for the next 50 years or so.


I’m not advocating for anything besides a little bit of restraint.

For example, the “World Gateway Program” O’Hare expansion plan from the late 90s/early 2000s had all the benefits of the OGT without the grandiosity. WGP colocated alliance partners, netted a similar number of new gates and tripled the number of international capable gates but only required the simple renovation of T2’s existing Concourse E/F(for United and Star) to better accommodate wide bodies and separate int’l arrivals and a modest T4 built out of Concourse L and extended around the Heating Plant(for American and Oneworld).

And, if/when necessary a T6 right where the new T5 extension is going up.

With OGT you tear down two concourses and a terminal to build three concourses and a new terminal for a net of 18 new gates.
 
Elkadad313
Posts: 160
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:55 am

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat May 15, 2021 2:22 am

winter wrote:
With OGT you tear down two concourses and a terminal to build three concourses and a new terminal for a net of 18 new gates.

Not much of a return for $8.5 billion. And by the time it's done, yet another terminal/more gates will be needed. CDA could use some foresight, bite the bullet, and build a new 9R - 27L closer to 9C - 27C now, and then demolish the current (being lengthened) 9R - 27L. Even with parallel runway restrictions, ORD would still effectively have 5.5+ runways.

This would provide space for another terminal east of T1. The runway work would add about $1.5 billion to the overall project cost (about 18% +) plus the cost of the new terminal and access/etc. needed for a world-class airport. Of course, CDA won't do this now. The terminal can wait but the runway work should be done now to open the needed space. But they will wait 10-15 years to do it for ANOTHER $8.5 - $10 billion+ or more.
 
jayunited
Posts: 3505
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat May 15, 2021 9:37 pm

winter wrote:

I’m not advocating for anything besides a little bit of restraint.

For example, the “World Gateway Program” O’Hare expansion plan from the late 90s/early 2000s had all the benefits of the OGT without the grandiosity. WGP colocated alliance partners, netted a similar number of new gates and tripled the number of international capable gates but only required the simple renovation of T2’s existing Concourse E/F(for United and Star) to better accommodate wide bodies and separate int’l arrivals and a modest T4 built out of Concourse L and extended around the Heating Plant(for American and Oneworld).

And, if/when necessary a T6 right where the new T5 extension is going up.

With OGT you tear down two concourses and a terminal to build three concourses and a new terminal for a net of 18 new gates.


Don't take this the wrong way I mean no disrespect but have you actually worked at ORD's terminal 2 customer service, ramp, maintenance?

Terminal 2 opened 1962 nearly 2 decades before I was born. United use to operate out of terminal 2 and move into our current terminal 1 later. You speak of renovating terminal 2 as though the terminal is 10 to 15 years old, but in reality come January 2022 terminal 2 will turn 60 years old. The facility is falling apart and the infrastructure needed to turn the current terminal 2 into an FIS terminal capable of handling all of Star's international arrivals would require more than simple renovations. The time for renovating terminal 2 has come and gone. Terminal 2 doesn't even have a bag room, anyone who has worked terminal 2 is shocked when they are told they are standing in the bag room because it doesn't resemble any modern bag room and it is so small they have to limit the number of dollies allowed in. There is no way it could handle the volume of bags for all of Star's arrivals and departures. You are assuming renovating terminal 2 would save money but with 60 year old infrastructure there is only so much you can do with the structure to bring it into the 21st century. The work required to renovate terminal 2 which would include digging an underground bagroom and an underground FIS facility, moving and realigning the underground hydrants and electrical systems as well as expanding the footprint of concourses themselves would probably cost nearly as much as it would cost the city to simply tear it down and build a new terminal.

I"m not saying the OGT is the best design but I am saying no matter how you look at it, the time for renovation has long passed the aircraft both wide and narrow body are much larger than what they were years ago when United occupied terminal 2. It is time for terminal 2 to be torn down and start over with a clean sheet design.
 
chicawgo
Posts: 456
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:09 pm

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat May 15, 2021 11:11 pm

jayunited wrote:
winter wrote:

I’m not advocating for anything besides a little bit of restraint.

For example, the “World Gateway Program” O’Hare expansion plan from the late 90s/early 2000s had all the benefits of the OGT without the grandiosity. WGP colocated alliance partners, netted a similar number of new gates and tripled the number of international capable gates but only required the simple renovation of T2’s existing Concourse E/F(for United and Star) to better accommodate wide bodies and separate int’l arrivals and a modest T4 built out of Concourse L and extended around the Heating Plant(for American and Oneworld).

And, if/when necessary a T6 right where the new T5 extension is going up.

With OGT you tear down two concourses and a terminal to build three concourses and a new terminal for a net of 18 new gates.


Don't take this the wrong way I mean no disrespect but have you actually worked at ORD's terminal 2 customer service, ramp, maintenance?

Terminal 2 opened 1962 nearly 2 decades before I was born. United use to operate out of terminal 2 and move into our current terminal 1 later. You speak of renovating terminal 2 as though the terminal is 10 to 15 years old, but in reality come January 2022 terminal 2 will turn 60 years old. The facility is falling apart and the infrastructure needed to turn the current terminal 2 into an FIS terminal capable of handling all of Star's international arrivals would require more than simple renovations. The time for renovating terminal 2 has come and gone. Terminal 2 doesn't even have a bag room, anyone who has worked terminal 2 is shocked when they are told they are standing in the bag room because it doesn't resemble any modern bag room and it is so small they have to limit the number of dollies allowed in. There is no way it could handle the volume of bags for all of Star's arrivals and departures. You are assuming renovating terminal 2 would save money but with 60 year old infrastructure there is only so much you can do with the structure to bring it into the 21st century. The work required to renovate terminal 2 which would include digging an underground bagroom and an underground FIS facility, moving and realigning the underground hydrants and electrical systems as well as expanding the footprint of concourses themselves would probably cost nearly as much as it would cost the city to simply tear it down and build a new terminal.

I"m not saying the OGT is the best design but I am saying no matter how you look at it, the time for renovation has long passed the aircraft both wide and narrow body are much larger than what they were years ago when United occupied terminal 2. It is time for terminal 2 to be torn down and start over with a clean sheet design.


Great post.

Those that are able to maintain their leadership and success are those who plan for the future and anticipate future needs. We’re already way behind. Think of the millions of people that avoid Chicago connections at all costs. We have to fix the mess and the new plan is not a bad one. The only thing I believe is a huge mistake is to not build the APM along with the satellites and new T2. That should be functional when it opens.
 
jplatts
Posts: 4533
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat May 15, 2021 11:20 pm

Here are the number of passengers, number of seats, and load factors for WN flights out of ORD in February 2021:
BNA-ORD - 3316 passengers, 10471 seats, 31.67% load factor
BWI-ORD - 2061 passengers, 16080 seats, 12.82% load factor
DAL-ORD - 3967 passengers, 11869 seats, 33.42% load factor
DEN-ORD - 7159 passengers, 19766 seats, 36.22% load factor
ORD-PHX - 3203 passengers, 4004 seats, 80.00% load factor

I can understand load factors being weak on ORD-BNA/DAL/DEN since both the COVID-19 pandemic and Winter Storm Uri weakened demand for WN service out of ORD in February 2021.

WN had very weak load factors on BWI-ORD in February 2021, but WN already has nonstop service out of MDW to most of its East Coast destinations. Many of the passengers who were traveling on WN from Chicago to East Coast destinations that have nonstop service from MDW were preferring to fly nonstop out of MDW instead of connecting from ORD.

Load factors were much better on ORD-PHX than on the other WN nonstop routes out of ORD in February 2021.
 
jplatts
Posts: 4533
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat May 15, 2021 11:23 pm

Here are the number of passengers, number of seats, and load factors for WN flights out of MDW in February 2021:
ABQ-MDW - 3759 passengers, 8955 seats, 41.98% load factor
ALB-MDW - 3199 passengers, 7485 seats, 42.74% load factor
ATL-MDW - 24226 passengers, 31529 seats, 76.84% load factor
AUS-MDW - 7316 passengers, 13614 seats, 53.74% load factor
BDL-MDW - 3721 passengers, 7135 seats, 52.15% load factor
BHM-MDW - 4049 passengers, 7293 seats, 55.52% load factor
BNA-MDW - 11982 passengers, 19019 seats, 63.00% load factor
BOS-MDW - 7620 passengers, 13510 seats, 56.40% load factor
BUF-MDW - 3617 passengers, 7628 seats, 47.42% load factor
BWI-MDW - 12248 passengers, 25910 seats, 47.27% load factor
CHS-MDW - 4291 passengers, 7150 seats, 60.01% load factor
CLE-MDW - 10372 passengers, 21070 seats, 49.23% load factor
CLT-MDW - 3064 passengers, 6928 seats, 44.23% load factor
CMH-MDW - 10737 passengers, 16359 seats, 65.63% load factor
CVG-MDW - 3748 passengers, 8443 seats, 44.39% load factor
DAL-MDW - 19459 passengers, 37370 seats, 52.07% load factor
DCA-MDW - 7210 passengers, 14586 seats, 49.43% load factor
DEN-MDW - 26623 passengers, 43170 seats, 61.67% load factor
DTW-MDW - 10063 passengers, 14571 seats, 69.06% load factor
FLL-MDW - 27488 passengers, 34702 seats, 79.21% load factor
GRR-MDW - 9236 passengers, 16854 seats, 54.80% load factor
HOU-MDW - 22061 passengers, 35102 seats, 62.85% load factor
JAX-MDW - 980 passengers, 1144 seats, 85.66% load factor
LAS-MDW - 34229 passengers, 39712 seats, 86.19% load factor
LAX-MDW - 18446 passengers, 24364 seats, 75.71% load factor
LGA-MDW - 11871 passengers, 20005 seats, 59.34% load factor
MCI-MDW - 18176 passengers, 25395 seats, 71.57% load factor
MCO-MDW - 43127 passengers, 53378 seats, 80.80% load factor
MDW-MEM - 4327 passengers, 11363 seats, 38.08% load factor
MDW-MHT - 534 passengers, 1097 seats, 48.68% load factor
MDW-MIA - 6964 passengers, 8136 seats, 85.59% load factor
MDW-MSP - 17293 passengers, 25713 seats, 67.25% load factor
MDW-MSY - 10618 passengers, 14082 seats, 75.40% load factor
MDW-OAK - 7420 passengers, 15038 seats, 49.34% load factor
MDW-OKC - 3491 passengers, 6738 seats, 51.81% load factor
MDW-OMA - 9313 passengers, 16402 seats, 56.78% load factor
MDW-ONT - 561 passengers, 1400 seats, 40.07% load factor
MDW-ORF - 1627 passengers, 7293 seats, 22.31% load factor
MDW-PDX - 4360 passengers, 7103 seats, 61.38% load factor
MDW-PHL - 5500 passengers, 9766 seats, 56.32% load factor
MDW-PHX - 39877 passengers, 50350 seats, 79.20% load factor
MDW-PIT - 4953 passengers, 9258 seats, 53.50% load factor
MDW-PVD - 678 passengers, 1272 seats, 53.30% load factor
MDW-RDU - 9457 passengers, 15490 seats, 61.05% load factor
MDW-RSW - 29499 passengers, 32913 seats, 89.63% load factor
MDW-SAN - 8823 passengers, 17494 seats, 50.43% load factor
MDW-SAT - 891 passengers, 1272 seats, 70.05% load factor
MDW-SDF - 4607 passengers, 7150 seats, 64.43% load factor
MDW-SEA - 3354 passengers, 6678 seats, 50.22% load factor
MDW-SFO - 2021 passengers, 7028 seats, 28.76% load factor
MDW-SJC - 1499 passengers, 5895 seats, 25.43% load factor
MDW-SLC - 7403 passengers, 9030 seats, 81.98% load factor
MDW-SMF - 5210 passengers, 7436 seats, 70.06% load factor
MDW-SRQ - 3290 passengers, 4608 seats, 71.40% load factor
MDW-STL - 11642 passengers, 20566 seats, 56.61% load factor
MDW-TPA - 32772 passengers, 41141 seats, 79.66% load factor
MDW-TUS - 787 passengers, 1144 seats, 68.79% load factor
 
jcwr56
Posts: 1042
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:36 am

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2021

Sun May 16, 2021 12:06 pm

jayunited wrote:
winter wrote:

I’m not advocating for anything besides a little bit of restraint.

For example, the “World Gateway Program” O’Hare expansion plan from the late 90s/early 2000s had all the benefits of the OGT without the grandiosity. WGP colocated alliance partners, netted a similar number of new gates and tripled the number of international capable gates but only required the simple renovation of T2’s existing Concourse E/F(for United and Star) to better accommodate wide bodies and separate int’l arrivals and a modest T4 built out of Concourse L and extended around the Heating Plant(for American and Oneworld).

And, if/when necessary a T6 right where the new T5 extension is going up.

With OGT you tear down two concourses and a terminal to build three concourses and a new terminal for a net of 18 new gates.


Don't take this the wrong way I mean no disrespect but have you actually worked at ORD's terminal 2 customer service, ramp, maintenance?

Terminal 2 opened 1962 nearly 2 decades before I was born. United use to operate out of terminal 2 and move into our current terminal 1 later. You speak of renovating terminal 2 as though the terminal is 10 to 15 years old, but in reality come January 2022 terminal 2 will turn 60 years old. The facility is falling apart and the infrastructure needed to turn the current terminal 2 into an FIS terminal capable of handling all of Star's international arrivals would require more than simple renovations. The time for renovating terminal 2 has come and gone. Terminal 2 doesn't even have a bag room, anyone who has worked terminal 2 is shocked when they are told they are standing in the bag room because it doesn't resemble any modern bag room and it is so small they have to limit the number of dollies allowed in. There is no way it could handle the volume of bags for all of Star's arrivals and departures. You are assuming renovating terminal 2 would save money but with 60 year old infrastructure there is only so much you can do with the structure to bring it into the 21st century. The work required to renovate terminal 2 which would include digging an underground bagroom and an underground FIS facility, moving and realigning the underground hydrants and electrical systems as well as expanding the footprint of concourses themselves would probably cost nearly as much as it would cost the city to simply tear it down and build a new terminal.

I"m not saying the OGT is the best design but I am saying no matter how you look at it, the time for renovation has long passed the aircraft both wide and narrow body are much larger than what they were years ago when United occupied terminal 2. It is time for terminal 2 to be torn down and start over with a clean sheet design.


I could concur with your statement. Also, I do believe the longest "walk" anywhere on the airfield once this is all done will be the southern end of S2 to up near B1 which is roughly 28 minutes. UA will have to come up with some creative gating for not allowing those types of connections to happen.
 
jcwr56
Posts: 1042
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:36 am

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2021

Sun May 16, 2021 12:09 pm

jplatts wrote:
Here are the number of passengers, number of seats, and load factors for WN flights out of ORD in February 2021:
BNA-ORD - 3316 passengers, 10471 seats, 31.67% load factor
BWI-ORD - 2061 passengers, 16080 seats, 12.82% load factor
DAL-ORD - 3967 passengers, 11869 seats, 33.42% load factor
DEN-ORD - 7159 passengers, 19766 seats, 36.22% load factor
ORD-PHX - 3203 passengers, 4004 seats, 80.00% load factor

I can understand load factors being weak on ORD-BNA/DAL/DEN since both the COVID-19 pandemic and Winter Storm Uri weakened demand for WN service out of ORD in February 2021.

WN had very weak load factors on BWI-ORD in February 2021, but WN already has nonstop service out of MDW to most of its East Coast destinations. Many of the passengers who were traveling on WN from Chicago to East Coast destinations that have nonstop service from MDW were preferring to fly nonstop out of MDW instead of connecting from ORD.

Load factors were much better on ORD-PHX than on the other WN nonstop routes out of ORD in February 2021.


I can't help think there's a strategic mindset for WN. Willing to take short term losses for long term gains.
 
gabik001
Posts: 513
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2005 9:16 am

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2021

Sun May 16, 2021 4:43 pm

Anyone spotted /saw / took s picture of Atlas GTI7515/QF7552 today morning? Just departed to LAX from 27C.I was tracking it at the morning and saw it landed on 27C (from my windows but too far to see details but was wearing Atlas c/s) It seems like tail # is N79ND which is confused because no data at FAA registry. Some fake tail # with unique load? Following my research it should be N854GT. Hope someone can confirm it.
Canon 50D gripped + Canon 70D + 17-40 L + 24-105 L IS + 50 f/1.8 STM + 100-400L IS USM + Sigma 150-600 S
 
AAplat4life
Posts: 346
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:14 am

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2021

Sun May 16, 2021 7:46 pm

jcwr56 wrote:
jayunited wrote:
winter wrote:

I’m not advocating for anything besides a little bit of restraint.

For example, the “World Gateway Program” O’Hare expansion plan from the late 90s/early 2000s had all the benefits of the OGT without the grandiosity. WGP colocated alliance partners, netted a similar number of new gates and tripled the number of international capable gates but only required the simple renovation of T2’s existing Concourse E/F(for United and Star) to better accommodate wide bodies and separate int’l arrivals and a modest T4 built out of Concourse L and extended around the Heating Plant(for American and Oneworld).

And, if/when necessary a T6 right where the new T5 extension is going up.

With OGT you tear down two concourses and a terminal to build three concourses and a new terminal for a net of 18 new gates.


Don't take this the wrong way I mean no disrespect but have you actually worked at ORD's terminal 2 customer service, ramp, maintenance?

Terminal 2 opened 1962 nearly 2 decades before I was born. United use to operate out of terminal 2 and move into our current terminal 1 later. You speak of renovating terminal 2 as though the terminal is 10 to 15 years old, but in reality come January 2022 terminal 2 will turn 60 years old. The facility is falling apart and the infrastructure needed to turn the current terminal 2 into an FIS terminal capable of handling all of Star's international arrivals would require more than simple renovations. The time for renovating terminal 2 has come and gone. Terminal 2 doesn't even have a bag room, anyone who has worked terminal 2 is shocked when they are told they are standing in the bag room because it doesn't resemble any modern bag room and it is so small they have to limit the number of dollies allowed in. There is no way it could handle the volume of bags for all of Star's arrivals and departures. You are assuming renovating terminal 2 would save money but with 60 year old infrastructure there is only so much you can do with the structure to bring it into the 21st century. The work required to renovate terminal 2 which would include digging an underground bagroom and an underground FIS facility, moving and realigning the underground hydrants and electrical systems as well as expanding the footprint of concourses themselves would probably cost nearly as much as it would cost the city to simply tear it down and build a new terminal.

I"m not saying the OGT is the best design but I am saying no matter how you look at it, the time for renovation has long passed the aircraft both wide and narrow body are much larger than what they were years ago when United occupied terminal 2. It is time for terminal 2 to be torn down and start over with a clean sheet design.


I could concur with your statement. Also, I do believe the longest "walk" anywhere on the airfield once this is all done will be the southern end of S2 to up near B1 which is roughly 28 minutes. UA will have to come up with some creative gating for not allowing those types of connections to happen.


It appears that the underground walkway from S1 and S2 will take passengers close to where the OGT intersects with T1. From there the walk to the far B gates shouldn’t be too bad, and time wise probably about the same as walking from gates in current T2 where there are no moving walkways. Getting to the gates in much of T3 will be more of a challenge.
 
muralir
Posts: 161
Joined: Mon May 27, 2013 3:44 pm

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon May 17, 2021 5:28 pm

jayunited wrote:
winter wrote:

I’m not advocating for anything besides a little bit of restraint.

For example, the “World Gateway Program” O’Hare expansion plan from the late 90s/early 2000s had all the benefits of the OGT without the grandiosity. WGP colocated alliance partners, netted a similar number of new gates and tripled the number of international capable gates but only required the simple renovation of T2’s existing Concourse E/F(for United and Star) to better accommodate wide bodies and separate int’l arrivals and a modest T4 built out of Concourse L and extended around the Heating Plant(for American and Oneworld).

And, if/when necessary a T6 right where the new T5 extension is going up.

With OGT you tear down two concourses and a terminal to build three concourses and a new terminal for a net of 18 new gates.


Don't take this the wrong way I mean no disrespect but have you actually worked at ORD's terminal 2 customer service, ramp, maintenance?

Terminal 2 opened 1962 nearly 2 decades before I was born. United use to operate out of terminal 2 and move into our current terminal 1 later. You speak of renovating terminal 2 as though the terminal is 10 to 15 years old, but in reality come January 2022 terminal 2 will turn 60 years old. The facility is falling apart and the infrastructure needed to turn the current terminal 2 into an FIS terminal capable of handling all of Star's international arrivals would require more than simple renovations. The time for renovating terminal 2 has come and gone. Terminal 2 doesn't even have a bag room, anyone who has worked terminal 2 is shocked when they are told they are standing in the bag room because it doesn't resemble any modern bag room and it is so small they have to limit the number of dollies allowed in. There is no way it could handle the volume of bags for all of Star's arrivals and departures. You are assuming renovating terminal 2 would save money but with 60 year old infrastructure there is only so much you can do with the structure to bring it into the 21st century. The work required to renovate terminal 2 which would include digging an underground bagroom and an underground FIS facility, moving and realigning the underground hydrants and electrical systems as well as expanding the footprint of concourses themselves would probably cost nearly as much as it would cost the city to simply tear it down and build a new terminal.

I"m not saying the OGT is the best design but I am saying no matter how you look at it, the time for renovation has long passed the aircraft both wide and narrow body are much larger than what they were years ago when United occupied terminal 2. It is time for terminal 2 to be torn down and start over with a clean sheet design.


Well said. To all the doubters, you have to understand how old much of O'hare's infrastructure is. And how absolutely filled to the brim it is. There's no more nooks and crannies to shove a few gates here and there on the cheap (witness the L-stinger gates and how they have to snake it past the utility bldg). The expansion plan is not just about new gates, it's about bringing much of ORD's infrastructure into this century.

It's kinda like saying "what's the big deal about the runway reconfiguration? We already had 6 runways. We could have just slapped in 2 more and called it a day." The reconfig was about taking a runway layout designed for propellers and bringing it up to modern jet requirements, while opening up a ton of space for new terminals, reducing runway intersections, and improving the flow of aircraft throughout the airport grounds. Just looking at the total number of runways before and after misses the picture.

Similarly, just looking at gate count is doing a disservice. Firstly, there's a huge difference between an L-stinger gate designed for a regional jet, and an OGT gate designed for an international widebody. If all we wanted was the equivalent of new L-stinger gates, then sure, throw up a remote regional concourse with buses for a few million bucks and call it a day (like IAD did with their A gates).

One way to see it is this: while total number of gates is only going up by ~25%, the total square footage within the terminal complex is going up by 60%. This means the gates are larger, with more seating areas, more space for amenities, more behind-the-scenes infrastructure like FIS, and so on. If It's not just about the number of gates or we could put in a hundred hardstands for a bunch of CRJs and boast about the number.

Second, the poor operational workflows due to the outdated infrastructure absolutely has caused us to lose service. Lots of people avoid connecting in Chicago for international service because they have to re-clear security on the outbound leg. And more than that, you can be sure that airlines like UA and AA scrutinize the extra cost associated with towing aircraft from T5 to T1/3 the delays associated with cramped apron space in the current layout, etc. and factor those in when deciding to place a new flight at ORD vs EWR/DEN/SFO/IAD/DFW/PHL/CLT/MIA. UA and AA won't complain (publicly) about ORD infrastructure because it doesn't really matter to them: they can move service around to their other hubs. That causes Chicago to lose out, but they don't care about that.

The OGT will take us from one of the worst connecting experiences of any major hub in the country (I can think of only JFK being worse), to potentially the best (we'd be the only airport where single terminals are dedicated to entire alliances, not just to single airlines), both in terms of passenger experience, and backend operational workflows. That can be a decisive factor when airlines choose which airports to serve (especially specialized international flights that depend on connecting traffic).

Anyway, I for one am really looking forward to seeing the projects completed (hopefully on time and on budget!) as I think the true potential of all the runway work the city did won't be realized until the terminal work is done.
 
muralir
Posts: 161
Joined: Mon May 27, 2013 3:44 pm

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon May 17, 2021 5:45 pm

AAplat4life wrote:
drdisque wrote:
AAplat4life wrote:

It’s also about the type of gates. With Star and oneworld operations moving to OGT, including AA and UA international arrivals, just adding on to the existing footprints will not be feasible. Still I’m skeptical that connectivity and passenger flow will become easier at ORD when OGT is finished, at least based on the limited details released to date. But the ship has sailed and both UA and AA are on board.


Once complete, the vast majority of T1/2/3 -> T5 and vise versa connections will be eliminated.


I’m more concerned about connections and flow from OGT to much of T3 and the far reaches of B and C in T1. I don’t see an easy flow like at DEN, particularly with the Studio ORD design. At least T1 has moving walkways in the concourses, but T3 is clearly disadvantaged.


I hear what you're saying but I don't think it will be too bad, mainly because I think the number of AA flights where you'll need to connect from one side of T3 all the way to, say, concourse C, will be minimal. Despite UA/AA technically "sharing" the OGT, I expect that the vast majority of AA's ops will still be in T3, and the T3 side of the OGT, while UAs will be on the concourse C/D side. I wouldn't be surprised to see most of the new B gates dedicated to OW international ops, to make it closer to the domestic gates in T3, while SA's international ops are in the new C gates to keep it close to UA's domestic gates. While that might still be a bit of a hike, for an airport as large as ORD, it's not unreasonable, and comparable to other large connecting hubs.
 
ZBA2CGX
Posts: 127
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 11:09 pm

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue May 18, 2021 2:33 pm

https://chicago.cbslocal.com/2021/05/18 ... ade-delay/

No real change or updates on the ATS. Other than it is still delayed
 
User avatar
piedmontf284000
Posts: 510
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:00 pm

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue May 18, 2021 11:29 pm

ZBA2CGX wrote:
https://chicago.cbslocal.com/2021/05/18/ohare-airport-transit-system-people-mover-upgrade-delay/

No real change or updates on the ATS. Other than it is still delayed


I have to be honest. The buses, as ugly, noisy, and dirty as they are, are very efficient. Took the blue line the other day and had to fly out of T-5. Got the bus (which seem to come every 30 seconds) at T-2 and was at the Departure level of T-5 in less then three minutes, even with it stopping once at T-3. The ATS is nicer, cleaner, and quieter, but the frequency rates are no where near that of the buses. Even once it opens (one can only imagine), I can guarantee you that if the buses are still operational, I will be taking them instead of the ATS.
 
User avatar
kordcj
Posts: 298
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2011 10:18 pm

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed May 19, 2021 1:59 am

piedmontf284000 wrote:
Elkadad313 wrote:
glbltrvlr wrote:

The rendering here shows T1 and T2 as a connected structure, so it would make perfect sense to have single point screening in the new T2. I wouldn't hold my breath though. The plan is to start with the satellite terminals first, so it will be decades before they get around to the new T2 common check-in area.

https://www.ord21.com/home/Pages/default.aspx

The rendering (https://www.ord21.com/home/Pages/default.aspx), including satellites 1 & 2 (T-5 not shown but counted), appears to show only 168 gates (based on my eyeball count). According to Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O%27Hare_ ... 91%20gates) O'Hare presently has 191 gates. When 9R - 27L is completed, demand for gate space will, hopefully post-pandemic, increase substantially. Billion$ for a decrease in gates does not make sense. Is the rendering not accurate? What am I missing?


O'Hare currently has 191 gates of which they will lose 27 when Terminal 2 is demolished and 8 gates to Concourse B & C (4 each) in Terminal 1 for the connection expansion to OGT, which will bring them down to 156. T-5 is adding 10 in their expansion and the Concourse L stinger is adding 3. When the OGT is completed in the 30's, there will be 16 gates added to Concourse C or if you prefer Satellite 1; 24 gates will be added to an all new Concourse (D?) or Satellite 2 if you prefer. Finally the OGT will add 13 gates which will be connected to Concourse B. Some of those 13 might be considered Concourse B which will make the total number of gates in the OGT less. So with all the expansion, O'Hare will see net gain of 31 gates to bring it to a grand total of 222. Now some of these gate totals might change either positively or negatively based on actual construction, costs, demand, etc. However, I do believe that if they reduce the expansion of OGT it will still have the ability to expand later on should the city want/need it.


Aren’t satellites 1&2 supposed to be built prior to the bulldozing of T2? Without S2, United has nowhere for its express operation to go. If I recall the order of operations for this project is
T5 expansion
S2
S1/OGT
At 100M annual pax
S3
And some unknown number of more pax
S4?
I can’t find where I saw that in the initial announcement.
The most obvious proof for intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't tried to contact us.
 
jcwr56
Posts: 1042
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:36 am

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed May 19, 2021 11:40 am

kordcj wrote:
piedmontf284000 wrote:
Elkadad313 wrote:
The rendering (https://www.ord21.com/home/Pages/default.aspx), including satellites 1 & 2 (T-5 not shown but counted), appears to show only 168 gates (based on my eyeball count). According to Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O%27Hare_ ... 91%20gates) O'Hare presently has 191 gates. When 9R - 27L is completed, demand for gate space will, hopefully post-pandemic, increase substantially. Billion$ for a decrease in gates does not make sense. Is the rendering not accurate? What am I missing?


O'Hare currently has 191 gates of which they will lose 27 when Terminal 2 is demolished and 8 gates to Concourse B & C (4 each) in Terminal 1 for the connection expansion to OGT, which will bring them down to 156. T-5 is adding 10 in their expansion and the Concourse L stinger is adding 3. When the OGT is completed in the 30's, there will be 16 gates added to Concourse C or if you prefer Satellite 1; 24 gates will be added to an all new Concourse (D?) or Satellite 2 if you prefer. Finally the OGT will add 13 gates which will be connected to Concourse B. Some of those 13 might be considered Concourse B which will make the total number of gates in the OGT less. So with all the expansion, O'Hare will see net gain of 31 gates to bring it to a grand total of 222. Now some of these gate totals might change either positively or negatively based on actual construction, costs, demand, etc. However, I do believe that if they reduce the expansion of OGT it will still have the ability to expand later on should the city want/need it.


Aren’t satellites 1&2 supposed to be built prior to the bulldozing of T2? Without S2, United has nowhere for its express operation to go. If I recall the order of operations for this project is
T5 expansion
S2
S1/OGT
At 100M annual pax
S3
And some unknown number of more pax
S4?
I can’t find where I saw that in the initial announcement.


This is correct and the way the passenger numbers were being projected, the 100M mark would have hit just when the OGT was completed.

It's just not about where UA moves with S2, there's other carriers involved. Lets not forget, until the OGT is built T5 is the only FIS facility in place.
 
PUDFW
Posts: 103
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2003 3:45 pm

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon May 24, 2021 7:40 pm

https://www.icloud.com/photos/#0sp030qO ... EL2HvBxMbg

For those who havent seen it. Here is the latest photo of the construction at T5. It looks like a substantial expansion by the existing main wide body gates. I assuming this space is earmarked for concessions and greatly expanded lounges?

Also notice the metal building that has popped up, assuming this is temporary for construction?

Still seems weird to see Southwest there
 
gabik001
Posts: 513
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2005 9:16 am

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon May 24, 2021 8:25 pm

PUDFW wrote:
https://www.icloud.com/photos/#0sp030qO1npHGk1EL2HvBxMbg



Also notice the metal building that has popped up, assuming this is temporary for construction?


This will be a tower to cover viewing area after expansion.
Canon 50D gripped + Canon 70D + 17-40 L + 24-105 L IS + 50 f/1.8 STM + 100-400L IS USM + Sigma 150-600 S
 
jcwr56
Posts: 1042
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:36 am

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon May 24, 2021 10:33 pm

PUDFW wrote:
https://www.icloud.com/photos/#0sp030qO1npHGk1EL2HvBxMbg

For those who havent seen it. Here is the latest photo of the construction at T5. It looks like a substantial expansion by the existing main wide body gates. I assuming this space is earmarked for concessions and greatly expanded lounges?

Also notice the metal building that has popped up, assuming this is temporary for construction?

Still seems weird to see Southwest there


The side being shown will be mostly the Delta Crown room. Ceiling heights will be around 18'. The ramp level will house the entrance to the new bus dock. The grey building to the left of WN is a temporary bag room that will house a couple of airlines as the older system is being dismantled.
 
User avatar
United787
Posts: 2955
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 12:20 pm

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu May 27, 2021 6:52 pm

Looking forward to seeing a new satellite image from Google. The current one has to be at least 2 years old.
 
sircygnus
Posts: 95
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:46 pm

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu May 27, 2021 8:19 pm

United787 wrote:
Looking forward to seeing a new satellite image from Google. The current one has to be at least 2 years old.

Can never tell if Google Maps or Google Earth updates earlier. Google maps doesn't even have the de-icing pad completed.
 
dopplerd
Posts: 127
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 7:30 pm

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri May 28, 2021 9:32 pm

sircygnus wrote:
United787 wrote:
Looking forward to seeing a new satellite image from Google. The current one has to be at least 2 years old.

Can never tell if Google Maps or Google Earth updates earlier. Google maps doesn't even have the de-icing pad completed.


MapQuest imagery at a moderate resolution has the most recent I've been able to find. If you zoom in too much it reverts to an older set of imagery. Also, MapQuest still exists.

It is from the last year as:
-CDF is complete
-27C fully built, but does not appear to have been opened yet.
-Orchard pad is full of Covid grounded planes
-Expanded International terminal 5 hardstand is open but the temp gates are not yet there
 
User avatar
kordcj
Posts: 298
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2011 10:18 pm

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat May 29, 2021 8:44 pm

In the United Fleet thread post, it was mentioned UA would like ORD to grow to 700+ flights/day in the future. Is this even possible in their current gate configuration? Will it be possible when OGT is completed wrt S2/T1?
One stat I haven’t been able to find is how many daily flights can ORD support when OGT is completed? With OMP coming to a finish, I believe nominal runway capacity will be right around 1M annual flights, but I can’t find where that metric got in my head either.
The most obvious proof for intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't tried to contact us.
 
sircygnus
Posts: 95
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:46 pm

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat May 29, 2021 8:47 pm

[photoid][/photoid]
kordcj wrote:
In the United Fleet thread post, it was mentioned UA would like ORD to grow to 700+ flights/day in the future. Is this even possible in their current gate configuration? Will it be possible when OGT is completed wrt S2/T1?
One stat I haven’t been able to find is how many daily flights can ORD support when OGT is completed? With OMP coming to a finish, I believe nominal runway capacity will be right around 1M annual flights, but I can’t find where that metric got in my head either.

Anyone know what United’s max daily flights were out of ORD prior to COVID? Would help put that 700 number in context
 
ILikeTrains
Posts: 101
Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2019 3:18 am

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat May 29, 2021 8:57 pm

sircygnus wrote:
[photoid][/photoid]
kordcj wrote:
In the United Fleet thread post, it was mentioned UA would like ORD to grow to 700+ flights/day in the future. Is this even possible in their current gate configuration? Will it be possible when OGT is completed wrt S2/T1?
One stat I haven’t been able to find is how many daily flights can ORD support when OGT is completed? With OMP coming to a finish, I believe nominal runway capacity will be right around 1M annual flights, but I can’t find where that metric got in my head either.

Anyone know what United’s max daily flights were out of ORD prior to COVID? Would help put that 700 number in context


According to this, 637.
viewtopic.php?t=1420611
 
sircygnus
Posts: 95
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:46 pm

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat May 29, 2021 9:51 pm

ILikeTrains wrote:
sircygnus wrote:
[photoid][/photoid]
kordcj wrote:
In the United Fleet thread post, it was mentioned UA would like ORD to grow to 700+ flights/day in the future. Is this even possible in their current gate configuration? Will it be possible when OGT is completed wrt S2/T1?
One stat I haven’t been able to find is how many daily flights can ORD support when OGT is completed? With OMP coming to a finish, I believe nominal runway capacity will be right around 1M annual flights, but I can’t find where that metric got in my head either.

Anyone know what United’s max daily flights were out of ORD prior to COVID? Would help put that 700 number in context


According to this, 637.
viewtopic.php?t=1420611

Awesome thanks for that. Remember seeing those posts from FS in the past now
 
jcwr56
Posts: 1042
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:36 am

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2021

Sun May 30, 2021 11:53 am

kordcj wrote:
In the United Fleet thread post, it was mentioned UA would like ORD to grow to 700+ flights/day in the future. Is this even possible in their current gate configuration? Will it be possible when OGT is completed wrt S2/T1?
One stat I haven’t been able to find is how many daily flights can ORD support when OGT is completed? With OMP coming to a finish, I believe nominal runway capacity will be right around 1M annual flights, but I can’t find where that metric got in my head either.


UA picks up 5 gates once DL moves to T5, B6 and NK shuffle around and if UA really wanted too, could add in some O/D flights into T5 itself to reach that 700 number.
 
AAplat4life
Posts: 346
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:14 am

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2021

Sun May 30, 2021 2:18 pm

jcwr56 wrote:
kordcj wrote:
In the United Fleet thread post, it was mentioned UA would like ORD to grow to 700+ flights/day in the future. Is this even possible in their current gate configuration? Will it be possible when OGT is completed wrt S2/T1?
One stat I haven’t been able to find is how many daily flights can ORD support when OGT is completed? With OMP coming to a finish, I believe nominal runway capacity will be right around 1M annual flights, but I can’t find where that metric got in my head either.


UA picks up 5 gates once DL moves to T5, B6 and NK shuffle around and if UA really wanted too, could add in some O/D flights into T5 itself to reach that 700 number.


At one point, UA had over 600 daily flights at ORD and AA was about 525 (both counting regional affiliates). Both carriers will receive more gates once OGT is completed. Initially, the City awarded UA 5 more than AA, but then AA proposed adding more gates to L stinger. OGT needs to have gates for alliance partners too, and perhaps 10 to 15 gates will be needed depending on the time of day.
 
Planeboy17
Posts: 536
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:18 am

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2021

Sun May 30, 2021 4:00 pm

UA might be down a gate or 2 because of the Terminal 1 improvements and construction currently taking place. I’m not certain any gates are out of service right now but they have had a few closed off in the recent past due to the construction. I don’t know the timeline for said construction to end but when it does that will obviously help with possibly a dozen or more flights.
 
User avatar
kordcj
Posts: 298
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2011 10:18 pm

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2021

Sun May 30, 2021 5:40 pm

jcwr56 wrote:
kordcj wrote:
In the United Fleet thread post, it was mentioned UA would like ORD to grow to 700+ flights/day in the future. Is this even possible in their current gate configuration? Will it be possible when OGT is completed wrt S2/T1?
One stat I haven’t been able to find is how many daily flights can ORD support when OGT is completed? With OMP coming to a finish, I believe nominal runway capacity will be right around 1M annual flights, but I can’t find where that metric got in my head either.


UA picks up 5 gates once DL moves to T5, B6 and NK shuffle around and if UA really wanted too, could add in some O/D flights into T5 itself to reach that 700 number.


That’s an interesting twist of events. I can’t imagine UA using T5 for general domestic ops, but I also never imagined WN planes landing at ORD regularly. So anything is possible. The 5 gates you mention, are these to be issued before the completion of S2 in the current T2, or is the 5 gate gain done when S2 complete?
The most obvious proof for intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't tried to contact us.
 
GSOtoIND
Posts: 185
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:46 pm

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2021

Sun May 30, 2021 9:34 pm

kordcj wrote:
jcwr56 wrote:
kordcj wrote:
In the United Fleet thread post, it was mentioned UA would like ORD to grow to 700+ flights/day in the future. Is this even possible in their current gate configuration? Will it be possible when OGT is completed wrt S2/T1?
One stat I haven’t been able to find is how many daily flights can ORD support when OGT is completed? With OMP coming to a finish, I believe nominal runway capacity will be right around 1M annual flights, but I can’t find where that metric got in my head either.


UA picks up 5 gates once DL moves to T5, B6 and NK shuffle around and if UA really wanted too, could add in some O/D flights into T5 itself to reach that 700 number.


That’s an interesting twist of events. I can’t imagine UA using T5 for general domestic ops, but I also never imagined WN planes landing at ORD regularly. So anything is possible. The 5 gates you mention, are these to be issued before the completion of S2 in the current T2, or is the 5 gate gain done when S2 complete?

UA picks up Delta's gates in T2 once the T5 expansion is done. Not sure how B6 and NK factor in here since they're both in T3 with AA and AS.
 
jcwr56
Posts: 1042
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:36 am

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon May 31, 2021 11:09 am

GSOtoIND wrote:
kordcj wrote:
jcwr56 wrote:

UA picks up 5 gates once DL moves to T5, B6 and NK shuffle around and if UA really wanted too, could add in some O/D flights into T5 itself to reach that 700 number.


That’s an interesting twist of events. I can’t imagine UA using T5 for general domestic ops, but I also never imagined WN planes landing at ORD regularly. So anything is possible. The 5 gates you mention, are these to be issued before the completion of S2 in the current T2, or is the 5 gate gain done when S2 complete?

UA picks up Delta's gates in T2 once the T5 expansion is done. Not sure how B6 and NK factor in here since they're both in T3 with AA and AS.


Before S1 is built, Those who have read the lease and understand where all the gate swaps take place know how this unfolds. Exhibit D-1.3 defines all this.

DL moves to T5 (M1-M7)
UA picks up 5 in E and F
AS moves to end of E
B6 stays where they are
NK moves to end of G.
3 domestic/precleared common use gates; 1 in E and 2 in G.
3 domestic/precleared common use gates on the north side of the Stinger. (regionals only)
EAS moves to T5
 
wnflyguy
Posts: 2448
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:58 pm

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon May 31, 2021 2:16 pm

MDW talk has Allegiant moving to gates C1-3 in the Fall with a increase to 5 Based Aircraft.

New flights to be announced in Aug.

Flyguy
My Wings are clipped just another Retired Airline person. The Ultimate Armchair out of the loop airline industry geek. Aloha Mr Hand!
 
Rl12383
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:53 am

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon May 31, 2021 3:40 pm

Recent view from above of ORD posted on Twitter. You can see terminal 5 extension.

https://twitter.com/lianemarie1/status/ ... 42976?s=21
 
ZBA2CGX
Posts: 127
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 11:09 pm

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon May 31, 2021 4:00 pm

FAA looking for comments on the O'hare Airport Terminal Project,
https://www.dailyherald.com/news/202105 ... ghts-on-it
The newspaper link to the FAA is wrong https://www.faa.gov/airports/great_lakes/TAPandATEA/
 
MLIAA
Posts: 242
Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 11:08 pm

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon May 31, 2021 6:04 pm

jcwr56 wrote:
GSOtoIND wrote:
kordcj wrote:

That’s an interesting twist of events. I can’t imagine UA using T5 for general domestic ops, but I also never imagined WN planes landing at ORD regularly. So anything is possible. The 5 gates you mention, are these to be issued before the completion of S2 in the current T2, or is the 5 gate gain done when S2 complete?

UA picks up Delta's gates in T2 once the T5 expansion is done. Not sure how B6 and NK factor in here since they're both in T3 with AA and AS.


Before S1 is built, Those who have read the lease and understand where all the gate swaps take place know how this unfolds. Exhibit D-1.3 defines all this.

DL moves to T5 (M1-M7)
UA picks up 5 in E and F
AS moves to end of E
B6 stays where they are
NK moves to end of G.
3 domestic/precleared common use gates; 1 in E and 2 in G.
3 domestic/precleared common use gates on the north side of the Stinger. (regionals only)
EAS moves to T5


I just want to walk through these puzzle pieces.

DL moves to T5, displacing all the narrowbody operators at T5 (AM, WN, F9, AA, UA, etc). They all move down the line to the middle M gates.

“UA picks up 5 gates in E and F.”
DL doesn’t have gates in F, so where is United getting these gates? AS will spilt Deltas old gates with UA and move out of G.

JetBlue stays in the low G gates.

“NK moves to the end of G”
Do you mean the high G gates or the current Alaska gates in low G?

1 of the former high E Delta gates will be preclearance/common use (assuming to be used by United and Alaska)

“3 domestic/precleared common use gates on the north side of the Stinger. (regionals only)”
Wouldn’t these be exclusively used by AA if they are at the stinger? Why would they be common use?

This would also bring all of L concourse under AA’s control.

This is all great information, just trying to digest it.
A319 A320 A321 A332 B712 B722 B737 B738 B739 B744 B752 B763 B764 B772 B788 B789 MD80 S340 E140 E145 E170 E175 E195 CRJ2 CRJ7 CRJ9
 
GSOtoIND
Posts: 185
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:46 pm

Re: Chicago Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Jun 01, 2021 12:44 am

jcwr56 wrote:
GSOtoIND wrote:
kordcj wrote:

That’s an interesting twist of events. I can’t imagine UA using T5 for general domestic ops, but I also never imagined WN planes landing at ORD regularly. So anything is possible. The 5 gates you mention, are these to be issued before the completion of S2 in the current T2, or is the 5 gate gain done when S2 complete?

UA picks up Delta's gates in T2 once the T5 expansion is done. Not sure how B6 and NK factor in here since they're both in T3 with AA and AS.


Before S1 is built, Those who have read the lease and understand where all the gate swaps take place know how this unfolds. Exhibit D-1.3 defines all this.

DL moves to T5 (M1-M7)
UA picks up 5 in E and F
AS moves to end of E
B6 stays where they are
NK moves to end of G.
3 domestic/precleared common use gates; 1 in E and 2 in G.
3 domestic/precleared common use gates on the north side of the Stinger. (regionals only)
EAS moves to T5

Moving the EAS carriers to T5 seems particularly silly. I'm sure stuffing Spirit into G won't overcrowd a terminal that's barely large enough for 65 seaters.
  • 1
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7
  • 8
  • 9

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos