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airlinepeanuts
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Re: Alaska Airlines Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Fri May 28, 2021 12:23 pm

Aliqiout wrote:
airlinepeanuts wrote:
[twoid][/twoid]
wedgetail737 wrote:

QX still flies to STS using Q400's from PDX and periodically from SEA.


Right, in addition to several E175s to SEA, SAN, LAX, SNA and now BUR

Which are not bigger planes.


I also said more frequency…. Which is exactly what happened in STS and as another poster pointed out the E175s, while the same capacity as a Q400, offers a more premium product that a market may not have at first.
 
wedgetail737
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Re: Alaska Airlines Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Fri May 28, 2021 3:12 pm

airlinepeanuts wrote:
Aliqiout wrote:
airlinepeanuts wrote:
[twoid][/twoid]

Right, in addition to several E175s to SEA, SAN, LAX, SNA and now BUR

Which are not bigger planes.


I also said more frequency…. Which is exactly what happened in STS and as another poster pointed out the E175s, while the same capacity as a Q400, offers a more premium product that a market may not have at first.


I agree that the Q400 may be used to start and develop the smaller markets, like they are doing with the RDD-SEA and IDA-SEA routes. Potentially, they could move to E-175's eventually.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Alaska Airlines Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Fri May 28, 2021 4:33 pm

USAirKid wrote:
seahawks7757 wrote:
So the next Alaska 737-9 MAX will be a Special, not much but three mountains are very clear on this. Unfortunately with distance and heat haze, not the greatest, but just got to take what you can get sometimes. This one surprised me when it just showed up at BFI the other day. This frame was originally going to Corendon, PH-CDK, line 7503. Registration will be N979AK.

ImageN979AK Alaska Airlines 737-9 MAX by Brandon Farris

ImageN979AK Alaska Airlines 737-9 MAX by Brandon Farris

ImageN979AK Alaska Airlines 737-9 MAX by Brandon Farris


What is going on under the Eskimo's nose?


Some kind of sensor for the EcoDemonstator project, presumably. I’ll see if I can find out, and whether it’s permissible to share.
 
chrisair
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Re: Alaska Airlines Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Fri May 28, 2021 6:46 pm

wedgetail737 wrote:

The Q400 only has regular economy...but offers free booze to every passenger over 21.


And no running water. And no window shades. And no wifi.

About the only redeeming thing on the Q400 is I can fall asleep for as long as I'm on that dreadful plane. As soon as those engines come on, I'm sound asleep.
 
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RWA380
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Re: Alaska Airlines Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Fri May 28, 2021 6:54 pm

ASFlyer wrote:
RWA380 wrote:
When the 797 comes, I expect AS to be a launch customer.


That would be a welcome change from 6 hour flights on a cramped 737, although it remains to be seen what the 797 will look like.


Unless I've been lied to, AAG has given Boeing a wish list. If that wish list matches other wish lists, we'll start seeing what Boeing comes up. So far, twin aisle, 225 passengers in a mixed layout, with a TPAC range or TATL off the West Coast could be solid requests made by AAG. I'd be surprised if AS wants a mid-cabin galley, maybe a restroom bank of 2-4 loos.

I believe AAG wants to have a decent cargo capacity as well, pallet loading would likely be the luggage & cargo method used, IMHO. Much has been discussed on the aircraft & I am sure AAG was asked for their input
 
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RWA380
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Re: Alaska Airlines Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Fri May 28, 2021 7:02 pm

wedgetail737 wrote:
ASFlyer wrote:
RWA380 wrote:
When the 797 comes, I expect AS to be a launch customer.


That would be a welcome change from 6 hour flights on a cramped 737, although it remains to be seen what the 797 will look like.


If the 797 (NMA) is a widebody, I doubt AS will go for it.

I remember back in the 1980s, AS didn't order the 757 because it would require all new GSE.


Why do you think that? Not too many people how close AAG came to buying a few of the terrible teen 788's years ago & Boeing talked them out of it. In the 80's AS was flying MD-80's & 737-200/400 aircraft, they had no intention of being National, they were struggling to create a solid West Coast network, they purchased SI (Jet America) for more MD-80's & some SNA access.

At that time they didn't need the 757, it wasn't worth adding yet another type to the fleet, as they were already challenged with a mixed fleet. There was zero business sense to acquire any. Now Tilden is gone, the new guy is not conservative on expansion & with AAG's recent 737 MAX 9 orders & their multiple E-175 orders going to both QX & OO, they are looking to become bolder & eventually more International, to help their O/W partners link SEA to the routes AA won't be flying.
 
yeelep
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Re: Alaska Airlines Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Fri May 28, 2021 8:24 pm

USAirKid wrote:
seahawks7757 wrote:
So the next Alaska 737-9 MAX will be a Special, not much but three mountains are very clear on this. Unfortunately with distance and heat haze, not the greatest, but just got to take what you can get sometimes. This one surprised me when it just showed up at BFI the other day. This frame was originally going to Corendon, PH-CDK, line 7503. Registration will be N979AK.

ImageN979AK Alaska Airlines 737-9 MAX by Brandon Farris

ImageN979AK Alaska Airlines 737-9 MAX by Brandon Farris

ImageN979AK Alaska Airlines 737-9 MAX by Brandon Farris


What is going on under the Eskimo's nose?

The access panel for the rudder PCU and standby actuator has been removed.
 
Western727
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Re: Alaska Airlines Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Fri May 28, 2021 8:36 pm

RWA380 wrote:
ASFlyer wrote:
RWA380 wrote:
When the 797 comes, I expect AS to be a launch customer.


That would be a welcome change from 6 hour flights on a cramped 737, although it remains to be seen what the 797 will look like.


Unless I've been lied to, AAG has given Boeing a wish list. If that wish list matches other wish lists, we'll start seeing what Boeing comes up. So far, twin aisle, 225 passengers in a mixed layout, with a TPAC range or TATL off the West Coast could be solid requests made by AAG. I'd be surprised if AS wants a mid-cabin galley, maybe a restroom bank of 2-4 loos.

I believe AAG wants to have a decent cargo capacity as well, pallet loading would likely be the luggage & cargo method used, IMHO. Much has been discussed on the aircraft & I am sure AAG was asked for their input


Whatever the 797 ends up being, I truly hope it gets a 7- or 8-abreast layout. I favor the 767/330/350 over the 777/787 for long flights. Obviously it's just a personal preference, but not being more than 1 seat from an aisle is a winner for me.
 
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RWA380
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Re: Alaska Airlines Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Fri May 28, 2021 9:14 pm

Western727 wrote:
RWA380 wrote:
ASFlyer wrote:

That would be a welcome change from 6 hour flights on a cramped 737, although it remains to be seen what the 797 will look like.


Unless I've been lied to, AAG has given Boeing a wish list. If that wish list matches other wish lists, we'll start seeing what Boeing comes up. So far, twin aisle, 225 passengers in a mixed layout, with a TPAC range or TATL off the West Coast could be solid requests made by AAG. I'd be surprised if AS wants a mid-cabin galley, maybe a restroom bank of 2-4 loos.

I believe AAG wants to have a decent cargo capacity as well, pallet loading would likely be the luggage & cargo method used, IMHO. Much has been discussed on the aircraft & I am sure AAG was asked for their input


Whatever the 797 ends up being, I truly hope it gets a 7- or 8-abreast layout. I favor the 767/330/350 over the 777/787 for long flights. Obviously it's just a personal preference, but not being more than 1 seat from an aisle is a winner for me.


From what I know, AS isn't interested in a large widebody aircraft, I absolutely appreciated the 767 layout if flying in Y, it was a great aircraft & I had opportunity to fly them both TATL & TPAC in Y & J. I think AS wants no more than 230 passengers in a mixed 3 cabin layout. I am not saying AS is going TATL or TPAC, but they want a capable aircraft.

During the summer AS could likely fly 777's SEA-ANC-SEA all day long & fill them in the belly with cargo during June, July & August, but where would they use an aircraft that size during the winter? Hawaii is my only guess & I'd expect that would reduce multiple daily flights with just 1 flight, SEA-HNL/OGG/KOA.

Where a 797 in AS dream configuration, would help during the summer to AK from SEA & some East Coast destinations that have heavy traffic, but would also be a capable aircraft flying leisure destinations during the winter, garnering the premium traffic & filling their coach cabins. I think the new CEO is going to make some bold moves.

I even argued that LAX was the only gateway to BZE that made sense, as I am used to Tilden at the helm & I was wrong. The SEA-BZE 6 hour flight would not happen at all, but here we are. I'd expect the MAX to bring a couple new experiments testing the range of them.

I think moving forward, both AS & B6 are the major carriers who will be able to make quick moves in & out of markets. This isn't saying others can't, but many won't. WN is it's own entity, I think they are well positioned for the future.

At least a couple majors have tons of used narrow bodies that create an inconsistent fleet & as a customer, it's one reason I stick to AS.

DL is keeping routes out of SEA operating, by offering one A-319 a day, IAD is one, my Husband just did it this week & it was not full at all. These single A-319 or smaller, routes are how DL is holding onto the gates & route count out of SEA.

Routes where AS operates multiple 738's or 739's daily. I think AS would enjoy the opportunity to offer a superior premium product for the first 2 rows of a new aircraft, it's been requested by their top tier fliers & corporations.
 
sfojvjets
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Re: Alaska Airlines Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Fri May 28, 2021 10:01 pm

All this talk of AS buying the NMA (if it suits their supposed needs) really intrigues me... Being such a weak player in the tcon market, and with competition to only increase, I doubt AS would need (or want) the NMA for those purposes. The only routes that I see making sense for AS and the NMA is SEA-HNL/OGG, perhaps some SEA-originating transcons although I would find that very unlikely, and SEA-ANC. However, if Minicucci is as... "growth oriented" as he is made out to be by this thread, then I'd be happy to see them place an order if it fits their needs. My only question is why not simply go for the MAX 10 instead? For the routes stated above, the NMA simply does not seem needed range-wise. The MAX 10 can cover all west coast -> hawaii service just fine, and the same goes for transcons.

Another unrelated question: I've always wondered why AS doesn't build up their presence in Latin America to SFO. They've historically been second-rate in every aspect of service from SFO apart from being a good option for regional hops in the west, and this is a good option to carve out a niche. United provides basically no service to Latin America other than key markets such as GDL and MEX, apart from the Mexican vacation hotspots. SFO-LIR was only recently added this January... and I was sure that AS would announce it, since everything south of Mexico is a big hole for SFO - and UA largely isn't willing to add more nonstops from SFO given that they don't want to undermine IAH. LAX is such a crowded space for everything south of the border, while SFO still has a decent amount of demand to some unserved locations... GDL, GUA, SJO, LIR (up till January when UA started) and even BOG come to mind. BZE and other locations too. With Minicucci purported to be very liberal in terms of growth, at least more than the conservative Tilden, could we see a LatAm push from SFO? (And yes... the MAX 9 does indeed have the legs to fly SFO-BOG... there's demand too, as Avianca filed A330 service between the city pair but never started, now think what could happen with a narrowbody).
 
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NameOmitted
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Re: Alaska Airlines Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Fri May 28, 2021 10:11 pm

RWA380 wrote:
So far ... a TPAC range or TATL off the West Coast could be solid requests made by AAG.

:o that's... That would represent a huge change in business models for Air Group.
 
wedgetail737
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Re: Alaska Airlines Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Fri May 28, 2021 10:35 pm

chrisair wrote:
wedgetail737 wrote:

The Q400 only has regular economy...but offers free booze to every passenger over 21.


And no running water. And no window shades. And no wifi.

About the only redeeming thing on the Q400 is I can fall asleep for as long as I'm on that dreadful plane. As soon as those engines come on, I'm sound asleep.


The later-registered Q400's have window shades.

I don't think the seats recline either.
 
Wingtips56
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Re: Alaska Airlines Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Fri May 28, 2021 11:03 pm

wedgetail737 wrote:
chrisair wrote:
wedgetail737 wrote:

The Q400 only has regular economy...but offers free booze to every passenger over 21.


And no running water. And no window shades. And no wifi.

About the only redeeming thing on the Q400 is I can fall asleep for as long as I'm on that dreadful plane. As soon as those engines come on, I'm sound asleep.


The later-registered Q400's have window shades.

I don't think the seats recline either.

Seats don't recline (so no knee crunching from the bozo in front of you), but they are tipped back a little; more comfortable than the bolt upright discomfort for take off and landing of other seats.
 
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seahawks7757
Posts: 336
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Re: Alaska Airlines Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Sat May 29, 2021 1:45 am

USAirKid wrote:
seahawks7757 wrote:
So the next Alaska 737-9 MAX will be a Special, not much but three mountains are very clear on this. Unfortunately with distance and heat haze, not the greatest, but just got to take what you can get sometimes. This one surprised me when it just showed up at BFI the other day. This frame was originally going to Corendon, PH-CDK, line 7503. Registration will be N979AK.

ImageN979AK Alaska Airlines 737-9 MAX by Brandon Farris

ImageN979AK Alaska Airlines 737-9 MAX by Brandon Farris

ImageN979AK Alaska Airlines 737-9 MAX by Brandon Farris


What is going on under the Eskimo's nose?


Access panels open.
 
wedgetail737
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Re: Alaska Airlines Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Sat May 29, 2021 1:54 am

Wingtips56 wrote:
wedgetail737 wrote:
chrisair wrote:

And no running water. And no window shades. And no wifi.

About the only redeeming thing on the Q400 is I can fall asleep for as long as I'm on that dreadful plane. As soon as those engines come on, I'm sound asleep.


The later-registered Q400's have window shades.

I don't think the seats recline either.

Seats don't recline (so no knee crunching from the bozo in front of you), but they are tipped back a little; more comfortable than the bolt upright discomfort for take off and landing of other seats.


On the QX Q400 flights, you get the free beer and wine. You don't get that on the QX E-175's.
 
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RWA380
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Re: Alaska Airlines Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Sat May 29, 2021 7:48 pm

NameOmitted wrote:
RWA380 wrote:
So far ... a TPAC range or TATL off the West Coast could be solid requests made by AAG.

:o that's... That would represent a huge change in business models for Air Group.


AS is about tapped for SEA - ???, or ANC - ???, with their current fleet. If, AAG wants to grow, they must be thinking out of the conservative bubble they've been in. Belize is a nice start, especially n/s from SEA. AS is flying the 738 on this route, In the future just how much further can the MAX 9 take them from SEA? PTY maybe? But then again, why would they fly there?

But don't be mistaken, AAG has their plans to become the West Coast carrier. It's not going to come down to how many times a day one flies from the bay area to the LA area, it'll be about shear number of destinations & opportunities to get places those areas fly to. This is where the E-175 has WN tied. WN can fly to FAT, EUG or PSP, but they are not competition for AS.

It's still only Hawaii, East Coast, Mexico & Central America, with maybe P.R. or Hispanola. AAG has an out of the box thinker that has taken over for Brad Tilden, AS is not afraid to make bold moves, but they want to do due diligence before just leaping into a TATL or TPAC foray. But if AAG wants to become larger, they will need a capable 10 hour aircraft with ETOPS 180. I am sure it would not be an Airbus.

The last thing is, the Q-400 is going to be around a while folks, while the numbers in the fleet continue to slowly shrink, there are just some markets that the E-175 is too much, with the mixed cabin. The Q-400 operating costs are a major factor. If AAG dropped all the Q's, I assure you we'd lose more cities in the PNW off their route map.
 
wedgetail737
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Re: Alaska Airlines Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Sat May 29, 2021 10:16 pm

RWA380 wrote:
NameOmitted wrote:
RWA380 wrote:
So far ... a TPAC range or TATL off the West Coast could be solid requests made by AAG.

:o that's... That would represent a huge change in business models for Air Group.


AS is about tapped for SEA - ???, or ANC - ???, with their current fleet. If, AAG wants to grow, they must be thinking out of the conservative bubble they've been in. Belize is a nice start, especially n/s from SEA. AS is flying the 738 on this route, In the future just how much further can the MAX 9 take them from SEA? PTY maybe? But then again, why would they fly there?

But don't be mistaken, AAG has their plans to become the West Coast carrier. It's not going to come down to how many times a day one flies from the bay area to the LA area, it'll be about shear number of destinations & opportunities to get places those areas fly to. This is where the E-175 has WN tied. WN can fly to FAT, EUG or PSP, but they are not competition for AS.

It's still only Hawaii, East Coast, Mexico & Central America, with maybe P.R. or Hispanola. AAG has an out of the box thinker that has taken over for Brad Tilden, AS is not afraid to make bold moves, but they want to do due diligence before just leaping into a TATL or TPAC foray. But if AAG wants to become larger, they will need a capable 10 hour aircraft with ETOPS 180. I am sure it would not be an Airbus.

The last thing is, the Q-400 is going to be around a while folks, while the numbers in the fleet continue to slowly shrink, there are just some markets that the E-175 is too much, with the mixed cabin. The Q-400 operating costs are a major factor. If AAG dropped all the Q's, I assure you we'd lose more cities in the PNW off their route map.


That's the thing, AS is not losing or gaining any Q400's over the next couple of years, at least. In fact, they are renovating them somewhat, with new seats.
 
32andBelow
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Re: Alaska Airlines Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Sat May 29, 2021 10:53 pm

Does it really cost less per hour to run an q400 over an e175. I thought the Qs were maint hogs?
 
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msp747
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Re: Alaska Airlines Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Sun May 30, 2021 5:59 pm

RWA380 wrote:
Wneast wrote:
RWA380 wrote:
[twoid][/twoid]

The decisions have been made about Airbus & it's future flying for AS. No, it's not at all profitable to run a sub-fleet for ten aircraft. I am not at liberty to discuss details, but I've heard that AS or the lessor can find homes for the A-321neo's very easily & It's rumored up to half of them may be spoken for already. I know not when they'll exit the fleet, AS has had a difficult time finding the suitable markets to run them. But both AS & passengers enjoy the aircraft.

The A-321 was supposed to fly Hawaii routes at one point, in fact the F/A's were told it would be happening. The majority, if not all of the A-320's are still parked as the MAX's start coming in rapid delivery style. AS didn't take "Proudly All Boeing" off their existing 737's because they knew what way they would go.

The Pandemic sadly played well for AS, they have chipped away the majority of their Airbuses & what is left, remains mostly parked. AS does not want to operate the type & haven't made any real moves to claim those birds other than wash off the Virgin branding ASAP. AS dumped a ton of money into refurb's & paint with decals, but stopped paying fees to Virgin.

For several people guessing routes, a few of you are correct, wait for AS to add a few cities, but more strengthen their existing network. I'd expect the huge amount of E-175''s to replace some Q-400's, but there are some stations that the Q-400 is great for. SEA-EUG/MFR/RDM & PDX-MFR/RDM. Plus the new RDD & IDA flights are courtesy of ERJ's running more routes that used to be only Q's.

AS in the 5 year, if anyone remembers, wanted to really position itself with CA. They are adding new routes out of MT, ID, OR & WA. They are slowly connecting some overdue dots, plus adding back, only what fits today in 2021.

AS will NOT be conservative as it was under Tilden, which as a stockholder could make one nervous, but I fully expect AS to stay relevant to Hawaii, the MAX will likely fly one or two inland routes, maybe BOI or GEG, for example. Watch AS test the limits of the MAX 9 in regards to range.

We are fortunate here in RDM, AS has n/s service to SAN, LAX, SFO, PDX & SEA (it sure gave us lots of connecting opportunities flying to LAS & HI) & also giving us multiple connecting opportunities to the entire AS system.

I think MFR & EUG may see more South bound service. I am confident PDX is not being ignored by AS despite one or two pessimists, the year is looking far brighter than even 5 months ago. Be sure to watch AS go back to shorter advance notice on new services (remember they were announcing a year out, just two years ago?). The 900 & MAX 9 will be the backbone of the AS fleet & the ERJ will be QX's. but the Q-400 does have an important role still for QX.

Also a few people had intimated that QX may buy 50 seat props, just NO! the Q-200's were dropped purposely, with QX well aware they'd be dropping stations, like PDT, ACV, RDD & LMT. Some feel it's a mistake to ignore these smaller places, but QX disagrees. In fact I'd lay good money that QX never buys another prop aircraft again, nor lease one, except to replace a Q-400 in fleet that may be lost & it'll be sourced from their lessor.

Are you saying they most likely will try GEG or BOI to Hawaii with the max 9 ?


I am not saying they will most likely try those markets, but I know that this new CEO is a big thinker, he was hired by the board to proceed into a growth phase with a desire for fresh ideas, while fortifying hub cities. There is nothing that is official, but if they do decided to, we will know with 6 mo's lead time or less, IMHO.

I also know that both BOI & GEG are important markets for AAG, but both airports are not dominated by AAG & I am quite sure they'd like to change that. I believe a bold move is in order. AS is always interested in growing any mid to large sized cities in the PNW & California.

AS is adding all 4 Islands n/s from LAX now, they are trying to capture some connecting traffic from LAS & other like places via LAX, even their MT cities or Oregon cities, are an option, I prefer PDX, but out of RDM (my home airport), our PDX flight is once a day & not great for connections other than the West Coast. I would like to see someone fly BUR-HNL on a 73G which AS has, but they're not equipped for HI operations.

Maybe Avelo or XP, will bring one of their New Haven based 73G's to BUR & one 738 can go to HVN for closer in flights requiring light fuel to get out of HVN, then they could operate a daily or 2x/2x /3x weekly series of BUR-HNL/OGG/KOA flights?

I'd more expect WN to convert a few 73G's & announce SNA & BUR to all 4 Islands, but that's not happening either, UA is already on SNA-HNL with their 73G's

I feel like AS has been the top airline at BOI for awhile and they have only strengthened that position over the past couple of years. Travelers can catch a direct flight to just about every California destination now. I think they could strengthen their position with an additional SFO daily flight and maybe an SNA flight, but other than that, they have the west coast covered very well. Hawaii would be a nice addition, and with the growing number of Californians in the Boise area, I think it is becoming more realistic. I'm guessing that's still a year or two away though.

That said, I'm not sure AS can ever become that much more dominant at BOI because of the lack of eastward destinations. I've tried to convince my wife to shift her loyalty there because of Mileage Plan and good service, but she hates having to backtrack to Seattle to catch a transcon flight when she goes to DC or Boston for work (especially when the early morning BOI-SEA flights are often delayed by fog in Seattle). She'd rather stick with UA to DEN or ORD for her connection. AS is adding an ORD flight, but I am not sure how linked to AA it is there. When I was looking at tickets from BOI-RDU this summer, the AS website wouldn't let me fly them to ORD and then switch to AA for the last flight. If I wanted to connect in Chicago, it forced me to go to SEA, then to ORD, where I could then catch AA. When I reached out to AS about this, they just shrugged. Maybe it is something they will address in the future, but I think they'll need to use their AA partnership in cities like ORD if they want to draw BOI travelers away from DL or UA.
 
Aliqiout
Posts: 560
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:10 pm

Re: Alaska Airlines Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Sun May 30, 2021 6:58 pm

msp747 wrote:
RWA380 wrote:
Wneast wrote:
Are you saying they most likely will try GEG or BOI to Hawaii with the max 9 ?


I am not saying they will most likely try those markets, but I know that this new CEO is a big thinker, he was hired by the board to proceed into a growth phase with a desire for fresh ideas, while fortifying hub cities. There is nothing that is official, but if they do decided to, we will know with 6 mo's lead time or less, IMHO.

I also know that both BOI & GEG are important markets for AAG, but both airports are not dominated by AAG & I am quite sure they'd like to change that. I believe a bold move is in order. AS is always interested in growing any mid to large sized cities in the PNW & California.

AS is adding all 4 Islands n/s from LAX now, they are trying to capture some connecting traffic from LAS & other like places via LAX, even their MT cities or Oregon cities, are an option, I prefer PDX, but out of RDM (my home airport), our PDX flight is once a day & not great for connections other than the West Coast. I would like to see someone fly BUR-HNL on a 73G which AS has, but they're not equipped for HI operations.

Maybe Avelo or XP, will bring one of their New Haven based 73G's to BUR & one 738 can go to HVN for closer in flights requiring light fuel to get out of HVN, then they could operate a daily or 2x/2x /3x weekly series of BUR-HNL/OGG/KOA flights?

I'd more expect WN to convert a few 73G's & announce SNA & BUR to all 4 Islands, but that's not happening either, UA is already on SNA-HNL with their 73G's

I feel like AS has been the top airline at BOI for awhile and they have only strengthened that position over the past couple of years. Travelers can catch a direct flight to just about every California destination now. I think they could strengthen their position with an additional SFO daily flight and maybe an SNA flight, but other than that, they have the west coast covered very well. Hawaii would be a nice addition, and with the growing number of Californians in the Boise area, I think it is becoming more realistic. I'm guessing that's still a year or two away though.

That said, I'm not sure AS can ever become that much more dominant at BOI because of the lack of eastward destinations. I've tried to convince my wife to shift her loyalty there because of Mileage Plan and good service, but she hates having to backtrack to Seattle to catch a transcon flight when she goes to DC or Boston for work (especially when the early morning BOI-SEA flights are often delayed by fog in Seattle). She'd rather stick with UA to DEN or ORD for her connection. AS is adding an ORD flight, but I am not sure how linked to AA it is there. When I was looking at tickets from BOI-RDU this summer, the AS website wouldn't let me fly them to ORD and then switch to AA for the last flight. If I wanted to connect in Chicago, it forced me to go to SEA, then to ORD, where I could then catch AA. When I reached out to AS about this, they just shrugged. Maybe it is something they will address in the future, but I think they'll need to use their AA partnership in cities like ORD if they want to draw BOI travelers away from DL or UA.

Why wouldn't she just use AA and earn AS miles flying east?
 
wedgetail737
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Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 8:44 am

Re: Alaska Airlines Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Sun May 30, 2021 7:30 pm

msp747 wrote:
RWA380 wrote:
Wneast wrote:
Are you saying they most likely will try GEG or BOI to Hawaii with the max 9 ?


I am not saying they will most likely try those markets, but I know that this new CEO is a big thinker, he was hired by the board to proceed into a growth phase with a desire for fresh ideas, while fortifying hub cities. There is nothing that is official, but if they do decided to, we will know with 6 mo's lead time or less, IMHO.

I also know that both BOI & GEG are important markets for AAG, but both airports are not dominated by AAG & I am quite sure they'd like to change that. I believe a bold move is in order. AS is always interested in growing any mid to large sized cities in the PNW & California.

AS is adding all 4 Islands n/s from LAX now, they are trying to capture some connecting traffic from LAS & other like places via LAX, even their MT cities or Oregon cities, are an option, I prefer PDX, but out of RDM (my home airport), our PDX flight is once a day & not great for connections other than the West Coast. I would like to see someone fly BUR-HNL on a 73G which AS has, but they're not equipped for HI operations.

Maybe Avelo or XP, will bring one of their New Haven based 73G's to BUR & one 738 can go to HVN for closer in flights requiring light fuel to get out of HVN, then they could operate a daily or 2x/2x /3x weekly series of BUR-HNL/OGG/KOA flights?

I'd more expect WN to convert a few 73G's & announce SNA & BUR to all 4 Islands, but that's not happening either, UA is already on SNA-HNL with their 73G's

I feel like AS has been the top airline at BOI for awhile and they have only strengthened that position over the past couple of years. Travelers can catch a direct flight to just about every California destination now. I think they could strengthen their position with an additional SFO daily flight and maybe an SNA flight, but other than that, they have the west coast covered very well. Hawaii would be a nice addition, and with the growing number of Californians in the Boise area, I think it is becoming more realistic. I'm guessing that's still a year or two away though.

That said, I'm not sure AS can ever become that much more dominant at BOI because of the lack of eastward destinations. I've tried to convince my wife to shift her loyalty there because of Mileage Plan and good service, but she hates having to backtrack to Seattle to catch a transcon flight when she goes to DC or Boston for work (especially when the early morning BOI-SEA flights are often delayed by fog in Seattle). She'd rather stick with UA to DEN or ORD for her connection. AS is adding an ORD flight, but I am not sure how linked to AA it is there. When I was looking at tickets from BOI-RDU this summer, the AS website wouldn't let me fly them to ORD and then switch to AA for the last flight. If I wanted to connect in Chicago, it forced me to go to SEA, then to ORD, where I could then catch AA. When I reached out to AS about this, they just shrugged. Maybe it is something they will address in the future, but I think they'll need to use their AA partnership in cities like ORD if they want to draw BOI travelers away from DL or UA.


It could be part of that anti-trust mandate from the DOT as a condition for absorbing VX. Did you try it through the One World website?
 
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RWA380
Posts: 5929
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Re: Alaska Airlines Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Sun May 30, 2021 11:22 pm

wedgetail737 wrote:
msp747 wrote:
RWA380 wrote:

I am not saying they will most likely try those markets, but I know that this new CEO is a big thinker, he was hired by the board to proceed into a growth phase with a desire for fresh ideas, while fortifying hub cities. There is nothing that is official, but if they do decided to, we will know with 6 mo's lead time or less, IMHO.

I also know that both BOI & GEG are important markets for AAG, but both airports are not dominated by AAG & I am quite sure they'd like to change that. I believe a bold move is in order. AS is always interested in growing any mid to large sized cities in the PNW & California.

AS is adding all 4 Islands n/s from LAX now, they are trying to capture some connecting traffic from LAS & other like places via LAX, even their MT cities or Oregon cities, are an option, I prefer PDX, but out of RDM (my home airport), our PDX flight is once a day & not great for connections other than the West Coast. I would like to see someone fly BUR-HNL on a 73G which AS has, but they're not equipped for HI operations.

Maybe Avelo or XP, will bring one of their New Haven based 73G's to BUR & one 738 can go to HVN for closer in flights requiring light fuel to get out of HVN, then they could operate a daily or 2x/2x /3x weekly series of BUR-HNL/OGG/KOA flights?

I'd more expect WN to convert a few 73G's & announce SNA & BUR to all 4 Islands, but that's not happening either, UA is already on SNA-HNL with their 73G's

I feel like AS has been the top airline at BOI for awhile and they have only strengthened that position over the past couple of years. Travelers can catch a direct flight to just about every California destination now. I think they could strengthen their position with an additional SFO daily flight and maybe an SNA flight, but other than that, they have the west coast covered very well. Hawaii would be a nice addition, and with the growing number of Californians in the Boise area, I think it is becoming more realistic. I'm guessing that's still a year or two away though.

That said, I'm not sure AS can ever become that much more dominant at BOI because of the lack of eastward destinations. I've tried to convince my wife to shift her loyalty there because of Mileage Plan and good service, but she hates having to backtrack to Seattle to catch a transcon flight when she goes to DC or Boston for work (especially when the early morning BOI-SEA flights are often delayed by fog in Seattle). She'd rather stick with UA to DEN or ORD for her connection. AS is adding an ORD flight, but I am not sure how linked to AA it is there. When I was looking at tickets from BOI-RDU this summer, the AS website wouldn't let me fly them to ORD and then switch to AA for the last flight. If I wanted to connect in Chicago, it forced me to go to SEA, then to ORD, where I could then catch AA. When I reached out to AS about this, they just shrugged. Maybe it is something they will address in the future, but I think they'll need to use their AA partnership in cities like ORD if they want to draw BOI travelers away from DL or UA.


It could be part of that anti-trust mandate from the DOT as a condition for absorbing VX. Did you try it through the One World website?


I have booked PDX-ORD(AS)ORD-RIC(AA) on a through fare, it was not an AS flight on AA or v.v., so I expect many options, unless it's very city specific. I know hub to hub (be it AA's or AS's) is not allowed. But AS to LAX & AA outbound is fine Internationally & on many domestic legs, like AUS.
 
Aliqiout
Posts: 560
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:10 pm

Re: Alaska Airlines Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Sun May 30, 2021 11:31 pm

wedgetail737 wrote:
msp747 wrote:
RWA380 wrote:

I am not saying they will most likely try those markets, but I know that this new CEO is a big thinker, he was hired by the board to proceed into a growth phase with a desire for fresh ideas, while fortifying hub cities. There is nothing that is official, but if they do decided to, we will know with 6 mo's lead time or less, IMHO.

I also know that both BOI & GEG are important markets for AAG, but both airports are not dominated by AAG & I am quite sure they'd like to change that. I believe a bold move is in order. AS is always interested in growing any mid to large sized cities in the PNW & California.

AS is adding all 4 Islands n/s from LAX now, they are trying to capture some connecting traffic from LAS & other like places via LAX, even their MT cities or Oregon cities, are an option, I prefer PDX, but out of RDM (my home airport), our PDX flight is once a day & not great for connections other than the West Coast. I would like to see someone fly BUR-HNL on a 73G which AS has, but they're not equipped for HI operations.

Maybe Avelo or XP, will bring one of their New Haven based 73G's to BUR & one 738 can go to HVN for closer in flights requiring light fuel to get out of HVN, then they could operate a daily or 2x/2x /3x weekly series of BUR-HNL/OGG/KOA flights?

I'd more expect WN to convert a few 73G's & announce SNA & BUR to all 4 Islands, but that's not happening either, UA is already on SNA-HNL with their 73G's

I feel like AS has been the top airline at BOI for awhile and they have only strengthened that position over the past couple of years. Travelers can catch a direct flight to just about every California destination now. I think they could strengthen their position with an additional SFO daily flight and maybe an SNA flight, but other than that, they have the west coast covered very well. Hawaii would be a nice addition, and with the growing number of Californians in the Boise area, I think it is becoming more realistic. I'm guessing that's still a year or two away though.

That said, I'm not sure AS can ever become that much more dominant at BOI because of the lack of eastward destinations. I've tried to convince my wife to shift her loyalty there because of Mileage Plan and good service, but she hates having to backtrack to Seattle to catch a transcon flight when she goes to DC or Boston for work (especially when the early morning BOI-SEA flights are often delayed by fog in Seattle). She'd rather stick with UA to DEN or ORD for her connection. AS is adding an ORD flight, but I am not sure how linked to AA it is there. When I was looking at tickets from BOI-RDU this summer, the AS website wouldn't let me fly them to ORD and then switch to AA for the last flight. If I wanted to connect in Chicago, it forced me to go to SEA, then to ORD, where I could then catch AA. When I reached out to AS about this, they just shrugged. Maybe it is something they will address in the future, but I think they'll need to use their AA partnership in cities like ORD if they want to draw BOI travelers away from DL or UA.


It could be part of that anti-trust mandate from the DOT as a condition for absorbing VX. Did you try it through the One World website?

The antitrust mandate prohibited code sharing in some markets, but codeshares are not neccisiariy to offer these kind of itineraries. AA has been offering non code share connections on AS on AA.com since AA.com came on board.
 
glideslope900
Posts: 186
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:27 am

Re: Alaska Airlines Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Sun May 30, 2021 11:55 pm

Anyone forsee a M&A with Alaska? According to the pilot forums, they are getting beaten by other airlines and are stagnant.
 
tphuang
Posts: 6713
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Alaska Airlines Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Mon May 31, 2021 12:41 am

msp747 wrote:
RWA380 wrote:
Wneast wrote:
Are you saying they most likely will try GEG or BOI to Hawaii with the max 9 ?


I am not saying they will most likely try those markets, but I know that this new CEO is a big thinker, he was hired by the board to proceed into a growth phase with a desire for fresh ideas, while fortifying hub cities. There is nothing that is official, but if they do decided to, we will know with 6 mo's lead time or less, IMHO.

I also know that both BOI & GEG are important markets for AAG, but both airports are not dominated by AAG & I am quite sure they'd like to change that. I believe a bold move is in order. AS is always interested in growing any mid to large sized cities in the PNW & California.

AS is adding all 4 Islands n/s from LAX now, they are trying to capture some connecting traffic from LAS & other like places via LAX, even their MT cities or Oregon cities, are an option, I prefer PDX, but out of RDM (my home airport), our PDX flight is once a day & not great for connections other than the West Coast. I would like to see someone fly BUR-HNL on a 73G which AS has, but they're not equipped for HI operations.

Maybe Avelo or XP, will bring one of their New Haven based 73G's to BUR & one 738 can go to HVN for closer in flights requiring light fuel to get out of HVN, then they could operate a daily or 2x/2x /3x weekly series of BUR-HNL/OGG/KOA flights?

I'd more expect WN to convert a few 73G's & announce SNA & BUR to all 4 Islands, but that's not happening either, UA is already on SNA-HNL with their 73G's

I feel like AS has been the top airline at BOI for awhile and they have only strengthened that position over the past couple of years. Travelers can catch a direct flight to just about every California destination now. I think they could strengthen their position with an additional SFO daily flight and maybe an SNA flight, but other than that, they have the west coast covered very well. Hawaii would be a nice addition, and with the growing number of Californians in the Boise area, I think it is becoming more realistic. I'm guessing that's still a year or two away though.

That said, I'm not sure AS can ever become that much more dominant at BOI because of the lack of eastward destinations. I've tried to convince my wife to shift her loyalty there because of Mileage Plan and good service, but she hates having to backtrack to Seattle to catch a transcon flight when she goes to DC or Boston for work (especially when the early morning BOI-SEA flights are often delayed by fog in Seattle). She'd rather stick with UA to DEN or ORD for her connection. AS is adding an ORD flight, but I am not sure how linked to AA it is there. When I was looking at tickets from BOI-RDU this summer, the AS website wouldn't let me fly them to ORD and then switch to AA for the last flight. If I wanted to connect in Chicago, it forced me to go to SEA, then to ORD, where I could then catch AA. When I reached out to AS about this, they just shrugged. Maybe it is something they will address in the future, but I think they'll need to use their AA partnership in cities like ORD if they want to draw BOI travelers away from DL or UA.


Keep in mind that an airline like AS can treat BOI like a focus city and have numerous P2P routes and not be the top airline.

In a recent data source I saw, here is approximately what the domestic market share of BOI based of travellers by dollar amount. Keep in mind, this is not by seat count or revenues on BOI flights, but rather measures point of sale out of BOI.
AS is about 20%
AA is about 15%
WN is about 25 to 30%
DL is about 15 to 20%
UA is under 15%

This would make a lot of sense since WN has mainline service to all of the west of country focus cities and have the ability to connect to other parts of the country without backtracking.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Alaska Airlines Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Mon May 31, 2021 1:21 am

glideslope900 wrote:
Anyone forsee a M&A with Alaska? According to the pilot forums, they are getting beaten by other airlines and are stagnant.


IMO, AS is stagnant because they need to be, so much of their resources go into SEA that it is difficult to grow anywhere else significantly or become the dominant carrier in any other major market.

VX offered some sort of a pathway to becoming a bigger player with more relevance outside of the Pacific Northwest, but that opportunity was not seized upon. You really shouldn’t be having "brand awareness" problems in California 5 years after the merger with VX.

Image

https://twitter.com/ByERussell/status/1 ... 85379?s=20
 
jbs2886
Posts: 3496
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Alaska Airlines Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Mon May 31, 2021 2:10 am

Midwestindy wrote:
glideslope900 wrote:
Anyone forsee a M&A with Alaska? According to the pilot forums, they are getting beaten by other airlines and are stagnant.


IMO, AS is stagnant because they need to be, so much of their resources go into SEA that it is difficult to grow anywhere else significantly or become the dominant carrier in any other major market.

VX offered some sort of a pathway to becoming a bigger player with more relevance outside of the Pacific Northwest, but that opportunity was not seized upon. You really shouldn’t be having "brand awareness" problems in California 5 years after the merger with VX.

Image

https://twitter.com/ByERussell/status/1 ... 85379?s=20


They dropped the VX brand and VX was a relatively small player (that was losing money). AS had to adjust a lot in California post-acquisition. Getting that brand awareness is very expensive and unfortunately for AS it had to focus a lot of resources on SEA with the city growing fast and with DL expansion.
 
USAirKid
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Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:42 am

Re: Alaska Airlines Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Mon May 31, 2021 5:37 am

glideslope900 wrote:
Anyone forsee a M&A with Alaska? According to the pilot forums, they are getting beaten by other airlines and are stagnant.


With who? If they merge with AA, I've heard that much of their network becomes unprofitable and likely would need to be dropped. The same for any of the other majors..

B6 perhaps could work, but thats a really dissimilar airline.

HA likely won't pass anti-trust given how much the two carriers serve the HI-Mainland market.

Sun Country comes to mind, but I'm not sure that makes much sense, but of all of them it probably makes the most sense.
 
Wneast
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Re: Alaska Airlines Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Mon May 31, 2021 5:38 am

USAirKid wrote:
glideslope900 wrote:
Anyone forsee a M&A with Alaska? According to the pilot forums, they are getting beaten by other airlines and are stagnant.


With who? If they merge with AA, I've heard that much of their network becomes unprofitable and likely would need to be dropped. The same for any of the other majors..

B6 perhaps could work, but thats a really dissimilar airline.

HA likely won't pass anti-trust given how much the two carriers serve the HI-Mainland market.

Sun Country comes to mind, but I'm not sure that makes much sense, but of all of them it probably makes the most sense.

What no WN merger Lol
 
tphuang
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Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Alaska Airlines Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Mon May 31, 2021 12:47 pm

The rumour online was an AS merger with HA. I think it'd pass through anti-trust given how much capacity WN has added in the market. HA will also be receptive to a merger given the competitive pressure from WN right now.

B6 is not going to merge with AS right now. It would've been an option pre-pandemic due to the common problem of DL and been cornered in. But B6's position has improved significantly since COVID hit and has no reason to merge with anyone. As long as NEA is in effect, B6 is not going to merge with anyone that's not AA.

AA is unlikely to merge with B6/AS with its current financial issues and the existing partnership.

The other scenario that might make sense is a WN takeover, but that's something only the C suite/BOD would know.

Also, AS is not going to keep around a fleet of 10 A321NEO unless it takes over HA. Right now, the lessors are not going to be amenable to taking back aircraft at high lease rates. By 2023/2024, demand should improve around the world and AS will be able to work with lessors to find a home for these 10 aircraft. I think AA would be interested in them. I'd be surprised if the A321NEO sticks around beyond 2024.

The big question for me is SFO. There hasn't been any announcements of a 737 base at SFO. As A320s exit the fleet, SFO is going to be down to mostly RJs to non-focus cities. That's not a great sign.

Looking a the same market share source I looked at, AS is probably grabbing at most 7% of SFO point of sale right now after peaking closer to 15% in 2018. This is not a station going in the right direction.
 
sxf24
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Re: Alaska Airlines Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Mon May 31, 2021 1:39 pm

AS may be stagnant in some ways, but their financial recovery will come much faster than AA, DL, UA or B6. Taking on less debt and repaying it faster will enable future growth.
 
joeblow10
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Re: Alaska Airlines Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Mon May 31, 2021 1:58 pm

tphuang wrote:
The rumour online was an AS merger with HA. I think it'd pass through anti-trust given how much capacity WN has added in the market. HA will also be receptive to a merger given the competitive pressure from WN right now.

B6 is not going to merge with AS right now. It would've been an option pre-pandemic due to the common problem of DL and been cornered in. But B6's position has improved significantly since COVID hit and has no reason to merge with anyone. As long as NEA is in effect, B6 is not going to merge with anyone that's not AA.

AA is unlikely to merge with B6/AS with its current financial issues and the existing partnership.

The other scenario that might make sense is a WN takeover, but that's something only the C suite/BOD would know.

Also, AS is not going to keep around a fleet of 10 A321NEO unless it takes over HA. Right now, the lessors are not going to be amenable to taking back aircraft at high lease rates. By 2023/2024, demand should improve around the world and AS will be able to work with lessors to find a home for these 10 aircraft. I think AA would be interested in them. I'd be surprised if the A321NEO sticks around beyond 2024.

The big question for me is SFO. There hasn't been any announcements of a 737 base at SFO. As A320s exit the fleet, SFO is going to be down to mostly RJs to non-focus cities. That's not a great sign.

Looking a the same market share source I looked at, AS is probably grabbing at most 7% of SFO point of sale right now after peaking closer to 15% in 2018. This is not a station going in the right direction.


There is no way the FTC/DOJ are going to approve any merger right now, but especially after they just approved AS with the latest one... and then AS turned around and completely squandered the VX network and its planes. Why would anybody at the DOJ believe anything would be different with a new merger - instead of SFO, it would be HNL.

AS has far too big a tendency to tuck its tail and run whenever faced with new competition... and it’s been like that for 20 years. They’re a nimble airline and they’ve got their niche, but if they took over HA you can bet they’d slowly cede to WN and UA.
 
Aliqiout
Posts: 560
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:10 pm

Re: Alaska Airlines Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Mon May 31, 2021 2:30 pm

joeblow10 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
The rumour online was an AS merger with HA. I think it'd pass through anti-trust given how much capacity WN has added in the market. HA will also be receptive to a merger given the competitive pressure from WN right now.

B6 is not going to merge with AS right now. It would've been an option pre-pandemic due to the common problem of DL and been cornered in. But B6's position has improved significantly since COVID hit and has no reason to merge with anyone. As long as NEA is in effect, B6 is not going to merge with anyone that's not AA.

AA is unlikely to merge with B6/AS with its current financial issues and the existing partnership.

The other scenario that might make sense is a WN takeover, but that's something only the C suite/BOD would know.

Also, AS is not going to keep around a fleet of 10 A321NEO unless it takes over HA. Right now, the lessors are not going to be amenable to taking back aircraft at high lease rates. By 2023/2024, demand should improve around the world and AS will be able to work with lessors to find a home for these 10 aircraft. I think AA would be interested in them. I'd be surprised if the A321NEO sticks around beyond 2024.

The big question for me is SFO. There hasn't been any announcements of a 737 base at SFO. As A320s exit the fleet, SFO is going to be down to mostly RJs to non-focus cities. That's not a great sign.

Looking a the same market share source I looked at, AS is probably grabbing at most 7% of SFO point of sale right now after peaking closer to 15% in 2018. This is not a station going in the right direction.


There is no way the FTC/DOJ are going to approve any merger right now, but especially after they just approved AS with the latest one... and then AS turned around and completely squandered the VX network and its planes. Why would anybody at the DOJ believe anything would be different with a new merger - instead of SFO, it would be HNL.

AS has far too big a tendency to tuck its tail and run whenever faced with new competition... and it’s been like that for 20 years. They’re a nimble airline and they’ve got their niche, but if they took over HA you can bet they’d slowly cede to WN and UA.

I agree with most of what that you are saying, except the postulation that AS would cut HNL. SFO was a short-lived money losing hub for VX. HNL has a long history of profitable operation.

Also AS has avoided many competitive situations, but have not turned tail in their core markets (SEA, Alaska, and PDX). HNL would become a core market in a HA merger/takeover.
 
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Midwestindy
Posts: 6399
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Re: Alaska Airlines Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Mon May 31, 2021 2:45 pm

joeblow10 wrote:
AS has far too big a tendency to tuck its tail and run whenever faced with new competition... and it’s been like that for 20 years. They’re a nimble airline and they’ve got their niche, but if they took over HA you can bet they’d slowly cede to WN and UA.


The messaging I normally see/hear from AS management is "we have survived this long, so let's just keep doing things the same way." And that's fine for the most part, they are profitable and generally perform above most US airlines.

But there comes a time where you need to adapt or be aggressive
 
Aliqiout
Posts: 560
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:10 pm

Re: Alaska Airlines Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Mon May 31, 2021 3:06 pm

Midwestindy wrote:

But there comes a time where you need to adapt or be aggressive

They have been consistently adapting since 1932. For example, they no longer fly three passenger aircraft.
 
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msp747
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Re: Alaska Airlines Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Mon May 31, 2021 3:52 pm

tphuang wrote:
msp747 wrote:
RWA380 wrote:

I am not saying they will most likely try those markets, but I know that this new CEO is a big thinker, he was hired by the board to proceed into a growth phase with a desire for fresh ideas, while fortifying hub cities. There is nothing that is official, but if they do decided to, we will know with 6 mo's lead time or less, IMHO.

I also know that both BOI & GEG are important markets for AAG, but both airports are not dominated by AAG & I am quite sure they'd like to change that. I believe a bold move is in order. AS is always interested in growing any mid to large sized cities in the PNW & California.

AS is adding all 4 Islands n/s from LAX now, they are trying to capture some connecting traffic from LAS & other like places via LAX, even their MT cities or Oregon cities, are an option, I prefer PDX, but out of RDM (my home airport), our PDX flight is once a day & not great for connections other than the West Coast. I would like to see someone fly BUR-HNL on a 73G which AS has, but they're not equipped for HI operations.

Maybe Avelo or XP, will bring one of their New Haven based 73G's to BUR & one 738 can go to HVN for closer in flights requiring light fuel to get out of HVN, then they could operate a daily or 2x/2x /3x weekly series of BUR-HNL/OGG/KOA flights?

I'd more expect WN to convert a few 73G's & announce SNA & BUR to all 4 Islands, but that's not happening either, UA is already on SNA-HNL with their 73G's

I feel like AS has been the top airline at BOI for awhile and they have only strengthened that position over the past couple of years. Travelers can catch a direct flight to just about every California destination now. I think they could strengthen their position with an additional SFO daily flight and maybe an SNA flight, but other than that, they have the west coast covered very well. Hawaii would be a nice addition, and with the growing number of Californians in the Boise area, I think it is becoming more realistic. I'm guessing that's still a year or two away though.

That said, I'm not sure AS can ever become that much more dominant at BOI because of the lack of eastward destinations. I've tried to convince my wife to shift her loyalty there because of Mileage Plan and good service, but she hates having to backtrack to Seattle to catch a transcon flight when she goes to DC or Boston for work (especially when the early morning BOI-SEA flights are often delayed by fog in Seattle). She'd rather stick with UA to DEN or ORD for her connection. AS is adding an ORD flight, but I am not sure how linked to AA it is there. When I was looking at tickets from BOI-RDU this summer, the AS website wouldn't let me fly them to ORD and then switch to AA for the last flight. If I wanted to connect in Chicago, it forced me to go to SEA, then to ORD, where I could then catch AA. When I reached out to AS about this, they just shrugged. Maybe it is something they will address in the future, but I think they'll need to use their AA partnership in cities like ORD if they want to draw BOI travelers away from DL or UA.


Keep in mind that an airline like AS can treat BOI like a focus city and have numerous P2P routes and not be the top airline.

In a recent data source I saw, here is approximately what the domestic market share of BOI based of travellers by dollar amount. Keep in mind, this is not by seat count or revenues on BOI flights, but rather measures point of sale out of BOI.
AS is about 20%
AA is about 15%
WN is about 25 to 30%
DL is about 15 to 20%
UA is under 15%

This would make a lot of sense since WN has mainline service to all of the west of country focus cities and have the ability to connect to other parts of the country without backtracking.

I agree that BOI is a focus city for AS and that if you want to fly P2P out west, it's the top option (WN gives it plenty of competition in California, but not Oregon and Washington). I was just saying that I don't think they can reach a dominant portion of market share since they are limited east. WN and DL both have strong market share and offer flights east. It is nice to see AS branching out to ORD and AUS. Hopefully, we'll see more of it.

Sidenote: Surprised how far UA has fallen at BOI, considering they are the original airline to serve the city. Then again, I think AS has more mainline service then they do and they use a lot of CRJs on their west coast routes.
 
wedgetail737
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Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 8:44 am

Re: Alaska Airlines Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Mon May 31, 2021 7:50 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
joeblow10 wrote:
AS has far too big a tendency to tuck its tail and run whenever faced with new competition... and it’s been like that for 20 years. They’re a nimble airline and they’ve got their niche, but if they took over HA you can bet they’d slowly cede to WN and UA.


The messaging I normally see/hear from AS management is "we have survived this long, so let's just keep doing things the same way." And that's fine for the most part, they are profitable and generally perform above most US airlines.

But there comes a time where you need to adapt or be aggressive


If AS is profitable and their methods are work (for the most part), why change? Why be aggressive when they don't need to be. They can remain somewhat conservative.
 
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Midwestindy
Posts: 6399
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Re: Alaska Airlines Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Mon May 31, 2021 8:21 pm

wedgetail737 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
joeblow10 wrote:
AS has far too big a tendency to tuck its tail and run whenever faced with new competition... and it’s been like that for 20 years. They’re a nimble airline and they’ve got their niche, but if they took over HA you can bet they’d slowly cede to WN and UA.


The messaging I normally see/hear from AS management is "we have survived this long, so let's just keep doing things the same way." And that's fine for the most part, they are profitable and generally perform above most US airlines.

But there comes a time where you need to adapt or be aggressive


If AS is profitable and their methods are work (for the most part), why change? Why be aggressive when they don't need to be. They can remain somewhat conservative.


I think you missed the post above where the AS management acknowledged their weakness, but provided no solution to rectify it, & squandered an opportunity to begin to address it over the past 5 years.

DL is the most profitable airline in the world, they don't *need* to engage in expensive expansion projects in places like BOS & SEA, but they do because they are planning for the future.
 
sxf24
Posts: 1354
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:22 pm

Re: Alaska Airlines Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Mon May 31, 2021 8:54 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
wedgetail737 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

The messaging I normally see/hear from AS management is "we have survived this long, so let's just keep doing things the same way." And that's fine for the most part, they are profitable and generally perform above most US airlines.

But there comes a time where you need to adapt or be aggressive


If AS is profitable and their methods are work (for the most part), why change? Why be aggressive when they don't need to be. They can remain somewhat conservative.


I think you missed the post above where the AS management acknowledged their weakness, but provided no solution to rectify it, & squandered an opportunity to begin to address it over the past 5 years.

DL is the most profitable airline in the world, they don't *need* to engage in expensive expansion projects in places like BOS & SEA, but they do because they are planning for the future.


Delta is not the most profitable airline in the world, nor even in the US. There is also another airline headquartered in Atlanta, UPS, that is more profitable than Delta.
 
AC4500
Posts: 759
Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2020 3:02 pm

Re: Alaska Airlines Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Mon May 31, 2021 8:57 pm

sxf24 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
wedgetail737 wrote:

If AS is profitable and their methods are work (for the most part), why change? Why be aggressive when they don't need to be. They can remain somewhat conservative.


I think you missed the post above where the AS management acknowledged their weakness, but provided no solution to rectify it, & squandered an opportunity to begin to address it over the past 5 years.

DL is the most profitable airline in the world, they don't *need* to engage in expensive expansion projects in places like BOS & SEA, but they do because they are planning for the future.


Delta is not the most profitable airline in the world, nor even in the US. There is also another airline headquartered in Atlanta, UPS, that is more profitable than Delta.

lol UPS doesn't count...
 
wedgetail737
Posts: 5873
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 8:44 am

Re: Alaska Airlines Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Mon May 31, 2021 9:25 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
wedgetail737 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

The messaging I normally see/hear from AS management is "we have survived this long, so let's just keep doing things the same way." And that's fine for the most part, they are profitable and generally perform above most US airlines.

But there comes a time where you need to adapt or be aggressive


If AS is profitable and their methods are work (for the most part), why change? Why be aggressive when they don't need to be. They can remain somewhat conservative.


I think you missed the post above where the AS management acknowledged their weakness, but provided no solution to rectify it, & squandered an opportunity to begin to address it over the past 5 years.

DL is the most profitable airline in the world, they don't *need* to engage in expensive expansion projects in places like BOS & SEA, but they do because they are planning for the future.


You have data to show that DL is the most profitable airline the world? Probably not...and you don't have to. Sure...I agree with you that AS has weaknesses. DL also has weaknesses...like Asia. But I hardly believe you when you say they are the most profitable in the WORLD.

I just think AS should continue to build on what have been working for them.
 
ASFlyer
Posts: 1908
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 1:25 pm

Re: Alaska Airlines Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Mon May 31, 2021 9:50 pm

wedgetail737 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
wedgetail737 wrote:

If AS is profitable and their methods are work (for the most part), why change? Why be aggressive when they don't need to be. They can remain somewhat conservative.


I think you missed the post above where the AS management acknowledged their weakness, but provided no solution to rectify it, & squandered an opportunity to begin to address it over the past 5 years.

DL is the most profitable airline in the world, they don't *need* to engage in expensive expansion projects in places like BOS & SEA, but they do because they are planning for the future.


You have data to show that DL is the most profitable airline the world? Probably not...and you don't have to. Sure...I agree with you that AS has weaknesses. DL also has weaknesses...like Asia. But I hardly believe you when you say they are the most profitable in the WORLD.

I just think AS should continue to build on what have been working for them.


I agree for the most part. Everyone here goes on about Alaska being "stagnant" or saying that they pale in comparison to others because they aren't growing in a huge way, but Alaska's management has a duty to their stockholders, not the airline fans at airliners.net. So far, they've been making their stockholders fairly happy - and their Board of Directors isn't too displeased. Is slow and steady growth always sexy? Not necessarily. I mean, Alaska isn't jumping into the transatlantic fray or buying wide body airplanes and flying across the pacific but what they are doing has made them money to this point. They are poised to come out of this pandemic stronger than before and will continue earning the confidence of their Board of Directors and shareholders.
 
User avatar
gunsontheroof
Posts: 3738
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 8:30 am

Re: Alaska Airlines Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Mon May 31, 2021 10:24 pm

sxf24 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
wedgetail737 wrote:

If AS is profitable and their methods are work (for the most part), why change? Why be aggressive when they don't need to be. They can remain somewhat conservative.


I think you missed the post above where the AS management acknowledged their weakness, but provided no solution to rectify it, & squandered an opportunity to begin to address it over the past 5 years.

DL is the most profitable airline in the world, they don't *need* to engage in expensive expansion projects in places like BOS & SEA, but they do because they are planning for the future.


Delta is not the most profitable airline in the world, nor even in the US. There is also another airline headquartered in Atlanta, UPS, that is more profitable than Delta.


Soft off-tracking here, but UPS Airlines' HQ is in Louisville.
 
User avatar
ikolkyo
Posts: 3327
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:43 pm

Re: Alaska Airlines Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Mon May 31, 2021 10:26 pm

gunsontheroof wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

I think you missed the post above where the AS management acknowledged their weakness, but provided no solution to rectify it, & squandered an opportunity to begin to address it over the past 5 years.

DL is the most profitable airline in the world, they don't *need* to engage in expensive expansion projects in places like BOS & SEA, but they do because they are planning for the future.


Delta is not the most profitable airline in the world, nor even in the US. There is also another airline headquartered in Atlanta, UPS, that is more profitable than Delta.


Soft off-tracking here, but UPS Airlines' HQ is in Louisville.


Their HQ is in Atlanta, but their mega hub is Louisville
 
jbs2886
Posts: 3496
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Alaska Airlines Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Mon May 31, 2021 10:35 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
gunsontheroof wrote:
sxf24 wrote:

Delta is not the most profitable airline in the world, nor even in the US. There is also another airline headquartered in Atlanta, UPS, that is more profitable than Delta.


Soft off-tracking here, but UPS Airlines' HQ is in Louisville.


Their HQ is in Atlanta, but their mega hub is Louisville


No. UPS Airlines is HQ is Louisville. UPS, the parent company, is HQ in Atlanta.
 
wedgetail737
Posts: 5873
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 8:44 am

Re: Alaska Airlines Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Mon May 31, 2021 11:03 pm

ASFlyer wrote:
wedgetail737 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

I think you missed the post above where the AS management acknowledged their weakness, but provided no solution to rectify it, & squandered an opportunity to begin to address it over the past 5 years.

DL is the most profitable airline in the world, they don't *need* to engage in expensive expansion projects in places like BOS & SEA, but they do because they are planning for the future.


You have data to show that DL is the most profitable airline the world? Probably not...and you don't have to. Sure...I agree with you that AS has weaknesses. DL also has weaknesses...like Asia. But I hardly believe you when you say they are the most profitable in the WORLD.

I just think AS should continue to build on what have been working for them.


I agree for the most part. Everyone here goes on about Alaska being "stagnant" or saying that they pale in comparison to others because they aren't growing in a huge way, but Alaska's management has a duty to their stockholders, not the airline fans at airliners.net. So far, they've been making their stockholders fairly happy - and their Board of Directors isn't too displeased. Is slow and steady growth always sexy? Not necessarily. I mean, Alaska isn't jumping into the transatlantic fray or buying wide body airplanes and flying across the pacific but what they are doing has made them money to this point. They are poised to come out of this pandemic stronger than before and will continue earning the confidence of their Board of Directors and shareholders.


They are also keeping their customers happy, for the most part. I really like Alaska's conservatism in most respects, but also love the fact they are are serving a lot of secondary markets along the west, essentially all the way down to SoCal.

Fortunately for me, AS is the most convenient airline for me.
 
tphuang
Posts: 6713
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Alaska Airlines Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Mon May 31, 2021 11:24 pm

wedgetail737 wrote:
ASFlyer wrote:
wedgetail737 wrote:

You have data to show that DL is the most profitable airline the world? Probably not...and you don't have to. Sure...I agree with you that AS has weaknesses. DL also has weaknesses...like Asia. But I hardly believe you when you say they are the most profitable in the WORLD.

I just think AS should continue to build on what have been working for them.


I agree for the most part. Everyone here goes on about Alaska being "stagnant" or saying that they pale in comparison to others because they aren't growing in a huge way, but Alaska's management has a duty to their stockholders, not the airline fans at airliners.net. So far, they've been making their stockholders fairly happy - and their Board of Directors isn't too displeased. Is slow and steady growth always sexy? Not necessarily. I mean, Alaska isn't jumping into the transatlantic fray or buying wide body airplanes and flying across the pacific but what they are doing has made them money to this point. They are poised to come out of this pandemic stronger than before and will continue earning the confidence of their Board of Directors and shareholders.


They are also keeping their customers happy, for the most part. I really like Alaska's conservatism in most respects, but also love the fact they are are serving a lot of secondary markets along the west, essentially all the way down to SoCal.

Fortunately for me, AS is the most convenient airline for me.

If you live in pnw, as is obviously the most convenient airline. You should see the number of people complaining about all the schedule reductions on midcon and transcon routes out of California.

I find the claim that this new management is less conservative and having plans to take over west coast to be ambitious but not realistic from what we have seen so far. I doubt wn will give up its position in west coast so easily. With all that Hawaiian service, wn no longer has major hole in west coast vs as.
 
Wneast
Posts: 1067
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:37 pm

Re: Alaska Airlines Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Mon May 31, 2021 11:28 pm

tphuang wrote:
wedgetail737 wrote:
ASFlyer wrote:

I agree for the most part. Everyone here goes on about Alaska being "stagnant" or saying that they pale in comparison to others because they aren't growing in a huge way, but Alaska's management has a duty to their stockholders, not the airline fans at airliners.net. So far, they've been making their stockholders fairly happy - and their Board of Directors isn't too displeased. Is slow and steady growth always sexy? Not necessarily. I mean, Alaska isn't jumping into the transatlantic fray or buying wide body airplanes and flying across the pacific but what they are doing has made them money to this point. They are poised to come out of this pandemic stronger than before and will continue earning the confidence of their Board of Directors and shareholders.


They are also keeping their customers happy, for the most part. I really like Alaska's conservatism in most respects, but also love the fact they are are serving a lot of secondary markets along the west, essentially all the way down to SoCal.

Fortunately for me, AS is the most convenient airline for me.

If you live in pnw, as is obviously the most convenient airline. You should see the number of people complaining about all the schedule reductions on midcon and transcon routes out of California.

I find the claim that this new management is less conservative and having plans to take over west coast to be ambitious but not realistic from what we have seen so far. I doubt wn will give up its position in west coast so easily. With all that Hawaiian service, wn no longer has major hole in west coast vs as.

Yeah I agree and WN is not even done with Hawaii, I get a feeling they might be pushed out of more California to Hawaii flying, I’m hearing WN is going to increase their new flights already
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 6399
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Alaska Airlines Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Mon May 31, 2021 11:49 pm

wedgetail737 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
wedgetail737 wrote:

If AS is profitable and their methods are work (for the most part), why change? Why be aggressive when they don't need to be. They can remain somewhat conservative.


I think you missed the post above where the AS management acknowledged their weakness, but provided no solution to rectify it, & squandered an opportunity to begin to address it over the past 5 years.

DL is the most profitable airline in the world, they don't *need* to engage in expensive expansion projects in places like BOS & SEA, but they do because they are planning for the future.


You have data to show that DL is the most profitable airline the world? Probably not...and you don't have to. Sure...I agree with you that AS has weaknesses. DL also has weaknesses...like Asia. But I hardly believe you when you say they are the most profitable in the WORLD.

I just think AS should continue to build on what have been working for them.


Not sure what you mean........Profit is publicly available data for any public company, which DL is. I assume you knew that already though, so I'm a bit confused....

Image
https://www.forbes.com/lists/global2000/#5806e0785ac0

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/air ... s-of-2020/

tphuang wrote:
wedgetail737 wrote:
ASFlyer wrote:

I agree for the most part. Everyone here goes on about Alaska being "stagnant" or saying that they pale in comparison to others because they aren't growing in a huge way, but Alaska's management has a duty to their stockholders, not the airline fans at airliners.net. So far, they've been making their stockholders fairly happy - and their Board of Directors isn't too displeased. Is slow and steady growth always sexy? Not necessarily. I mean, Alaska isn't jumping into the transatlantic fray or buying wide body airplanes and flying across the pacific but what they are doing has made them money to this point. They are poised to come out of this pandemic stronger than before and will continue earning the confidence of their Board of Directors and shareholders.


They are also keeping their customers happy, for the most part. I really like Alaska's conservatism in most respects, but also love the fact they are are serving a lot of secondary markets along the west, essentially all the way down to SoCal.

Fortunately for me, AS is the most convenient airline for me.

If you live in pnw, as is obviously the most convenient airline. You should see the number of people complaining about all the schedule reductions on midcon and transcon routes out of California.

I find the claim that this new management is less conservative and having plans to take over west coast to be ambitious but not realistic from what we have seen so far. I doubt wn will give up its position in west coast so easily. With all that Hawaiian service, wn no longer has major hole in west coast vs as.


Not sure it is possible to take over the west coast when you don't hold a #1 position in any major airport outside of the Pacific Northwest.

Even if you remain number #1 in SEA, that is just one end of any given O&D pair.
 
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Polot
Posts: 12403
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Alaska Airlines Fleet/Network Thread - 2021

Mon May 31, 2021 11:55 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
wedgetail737 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

I think you missed the post above where the AS management acknowledged their weakness, but provided no solution to rectify it, & squandered an opportunity to begin to address it over the past 5 years.

DL is the most profitable airline in the world, they don't *need* to engage in expensive expansion projects in places like BOS & SEA, but they do because they are planning for the future.


You have data to show that DL is the most profitable airline the world? Probably not...and you don't have to. Sure...I agree with you that AS has weaknesses. DL also has weaknesses...like Asia. But I hardly believe you when you say they are the most profitable in the WORLD.

I just think AS should continue to build on what have been working for them.


Not sure what you mean........Profit is publicly available data for any public company, which DL is. I assume you knew that already though, so I'm a bit confused....

Image
https://www.forbes.com/lists/global2000/#5806e0785ac0

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/air ... s-of-2020/

Margin is a far better gauge of “most profitable” airline than raw profit, which will naturally be dominated by large airlines (or airline groups) with large revenues when they are profitable. An airline making 20% margins is making more money off their revenue (profit) than one making 10% margins though. This isn’t to knack Delta- their margins have been good in the years leading up to Covid- but it is something you have to keep in mind.

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