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TWA302
Posts: 941
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed May 05, 2021 2:01 pm

jplatts wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
pmanni1 wrote:
Strange that STL never did put out any media release about WN adding SNA,VPS & SAV. A few weeks earlier when AA added BOS it was all over the media.


I don’t understand their release thinking at all. Maybe after the airport commission meeting today something comes out.


Here is a press release on swamedia.com that mentions the STL-MIA/MYR adds made by WN: https://www.swamedia.com/releases/relea ... s-fly-free

Here is a link to the blog post on the Southwest community website that mentioned the STL-SNA/VPS/SAV adds made by WN: https://community.southwest.com/t5/Blog ... a-p/119700


Talking more along the lines of the airport's lack of consistent releases on routes. I know WN touts them.
 
stlgph
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed May 05, 2021 2:13 pm

As I best remember-

Southwest typically focuses on national wires, publications, services and ownership groups and everyone works out of Dallas.

American, United, and Delta all have comms staffers in regions who probably have generated a lot more local contacts, etc. etc.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
Jshank83
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed May 05, 2021 2:41 pm

Even the F9 route to ORD got a social media post from the airport.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 4187
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu May 06, 2021 9:44 pm

BHMNONREV wrote:
atrude777 wrote:
United Schedule is out for July...

Using date of July 9th a Friday

STL-ORD 7 Daily
STL-IAD 2 Daily
STL-EWR 2 Daily
STL-IAH 3 Daily (Mainline on the 6:30am Departure, A320)
STL-DEN 4 Daily
STL-SFO still not flying

Alex


Which equates to about 1200 seats per day to UA hubs, and by comparison MCI sees about 1600 seats per day on UA on 16 flights (5 mainline, 11-E170/175)

In fact, it is evident the effect WN has had on the STL market as MCI sees about 1200 more seats per day on the US3 vs STL.


Was curious so I looked at the UA schedules. I didn't realize EWR is suspended for MCI until at least August. So MCI will have more seats but 3 less destinations on UA. Only DL flying to NYC for summer from MCI. Surprising.
 
Jshank83
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Sun May 09, 2021 3:07 pm

Southwests nonstop to Miami starts today. Sea sjc oak also back
 
Jshank83
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon May 10, 2021 3:14 am

So I got some free time tonight to dig into gate stuff, floorplans and google earth.

Right now gates are painted to C33/34. There are 3 gates after those in C with doors. At the moment there is only room for one more but they painted the last few gates wide (about 20 feet wider than a 737 needs) so they could scrunch them and get in 2 most likely.

So this is what we are looking at in C.

If you took out the EAS props you could probably fit in 3 normal gates in their place C1/C5/C9. Might also be able to reopen C17. C3/C7 would probably go away.

Current setup not moving props

Active - 17 (counting NK coming this month)
Vacant (but ready to use) - 2
Vacant but could be remodeled and used - 5
Total - 24

Could probably gain 2 more if you moved props.

C1 - Air Choice One
C2 - Technically there. Painted in, no jetbridge Hold area basically non existent. Squeezed out by retail.
C3 - Air Choice One
C5 - Cape
C6 - AA
C7 - Cape
C8 - AA
C9 - squeezed out by EAS props. Has holding area and gate door.
C10 - AA
C12 - AA
C15 - AS
C16 - AA
C17 - squeezed out but could come back if you moved the props so 15 could shift over. Has a holding area and a gate door.
C18 - AA
C19 - F9
C21 - Squeezed out (shares a jetbridge with 23 anyway)
C23 - F9
C24 - AA
C25 - gate is there but it is squeezed out. Doubtful it could be wedged back in
C27 - Contour (probably leaving, didn't rebid Fort Leonard Wood
C28 - SY
C29 - Jetbridge, no airline. Probably will be NK before long
C30 - NK
C31 - remodeled no jetbridge
C32 - Painted, no jetbridge, needs remodel
C33 - Painted, no jetbridge, needs remodel
C34 - Painted, no jetbridge, needs remodel
C35 - vacant
C36 - vacant - probably will be squeezed out and never used again.
C38 - vacant

End of C. New wall will be right after C31
Image


I also noticed E42 is painted in. Guessing just used for Southwest parking for now.
 
maps4ltd
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon May 10, 2021 3:37 am

Jshank83 wrote:
C2 - Technically there. Painted in, no jetbridge Hold area basically non existent. Squeezed out by retail.


Retail, and the large play area that was put in a few years back.

Also, I'm an idiot, what does "painted" mean here?
Next flights:
Who knows? :/
 
Jshank83
Posts: 4187
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon May 10, 2021 3:43 am

maps4ltd wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
C2 - Technically there. Painted in, no jetbridge Hold area basically non existent. Squeezed out by retail.


Retail, and the large play area that was put in a few years back.

Also, I'm an idiot, what does "painted" mean here?


Might be the play area also. Just knew something was there. I guess If needed it would be easy to get rid of the play area or move it to reopen that gate.

Painted as in lines are painted for the planes to park. A lot of gates that haven’t been used in a decade are faded out. Any listed as painted have been painted back in recently.
 
dcaproducer
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue May 11, 2021 1:47 am

Jshank83 wrote:
maps4ltd wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
C2 - Technically there. Painted in, no jetbridge Hold area basically non existent. Squeezed out by retail.


Retail, and the large play area that was put in a few years back.

Also, I'm an idiot, what does "painted" mean here?


Might be the play area also. Just knew something was there. I guess If needed it would be easy to get rid of the play area or move it to reopen that gate.

Painted as in lines are painted for the planes to park. A lot of gates that haven’t been used in a decade are faded out. Any listed as painted have been painted back in recently.


What’s the point of a wall after C31. Just remodel and open the end.
If E42 is painted, that must mean WN has told the airport growth will resume if traffic grows. Wasn’t the airport going to open the rest of D with the next expansion? Also time to get the new baggage claim back on track.

I’m glad to hear STL is starting to bounce back. I’ve flown through DTW (MacNemerra Terminal) twice over the past three weeks. 75% of retail is closed. It’s very empty. DCA has been empty. I’m going through T4 at JFK tomorrow and I’ve heard it’s also very empty.
 
Jshank83
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue May 11, 2021 2:42 am

dcaproducer wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
maps4ltd wrote:

Retail, and the large play area that was put in a few years back.

Also, I'm an idiot, what does "painted" mean here?


Might be the play area also. Just knew something was there. I guess If needed it would be easy to get rid of the play area or move it to reopen that gate.

Painted as in lines are painted for the planes to park. A lot of gates that haven’t been used in a decade are faded out. Any listed as painted have been painted back in recently.


What’s the point of a wall after C31. Just remodel and open the end.
If E42 is painted, that must mean WN has told the airport growth will resume if traffic grows. Wasn’t the airport going to open the rest of D with the next expansion? Also time to get the new baggage claim back on track.

I’m glad to hear STL is starting to bounce back. I’ve flown through DTW (MacNemerra Terminal) twice over the past three weeks. 75% of retail is closed. It’s very empty. DCA has been empty. I’m going through T4 at JFK tomorrow and I’ve heard it’s also very empty.


I guess they don’t want to pay to remodel and upkeep the rest yet. I can’t imagine it would have been THAT much more but no need to spend the money yet I guess.

I also noticed charters were moved to C28 (SYs gate). Probably good. It opens up a gate in A and it was silly to tow them all the way to A from E29. Hopefully we get some regularly scheduled charters back next year.
 
Jshank83
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed May 12, 2021 4:26 am

A couple updates.

Load Factors for January
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

Updated Destination Chart

Image
 
pmanni1
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed May 12, 2021 1:34 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
A couple updates.

Load Factors for January
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

Updated Destination Chart

Image

Are these load factors including connections? BDL,PIT,MSP,SAT were all suspended in Jan.
 
Jshank83
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed May 12, 2021 2:35 pm

pmanni1 wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
A couple updates.

Load Factors for January
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

Are these load factors including connections? BDL,PIT,MSP,SAT were all suspended in Jan.


They are nonstop but some (like the ones you listed) only had 1 or 2 flights at the beginning of the month. If you go thru the tabs you can see the actual numbers for each station.
 
Jshank83
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri May 14, 2021 12:58 am

BLV numbers for February

down 27% on month YoY
Down 29% on year YoY


International Load Factors for November

F9 CUN 69%
WN CUN 50% (first month back)
 
Jshank83
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri May 14, 2021 1:24 am

I am not sure there is a better airport than BLV at getting grants to pay for things.

They get another one.

Scott AFB/MidAmerica, Belleville, Illinois, more than $12.6 million For expanding the terminal building to accommodate existing passenger demand and meet security and ADA requirements.

https://www.einnews.com/pr_news/5410576 ... ent-grants

___________________
Also, I went back and read the small community air service proposal (different from this one) and doing a search Tucson listed BLV as a target market for them. But it was not listed as one of the seven BLV listed. So that might be another option if BLV gets to be a base.
 
maps4ltd
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri May 14, 2021 2:10 am

Jshank83 wrote:
A couple updates.

Load Factors for January
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

Updated Destination Chart

Image


Even before the pandemic, LIT was one of the worst performers for WN in terms of loads. I hope they're getting some $$$ connections to offset that.
Next flights:
Who knows? :/
 
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TWA302
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri May 14, 2021 3:03 am

Jshank83 wrote:
I am not sure there is a better airport than BLV at getting grants to pay for things.

They get another one.

Scott AFB/MidAmerica, Belleville, Illinois, more than $12.6 million For expanding the terminal building to accommodate existing passenger demand and meet security and ADA requirements.

https://www.einnews.com/pr_news/5410576 ... ent-grants

___________________
Also, I went back and read the small community air service proposal (different from this one) and doing a search Tucson listed BLV as a target market for them. But it was not listed as one of the seven BLV listed. So that might be another option if BLV gets to be a base.



Awesome! Now if that other cash comes in to expand G4 there it will be something nobody here would have ever thought possible.
 
Jshank83
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri May 14, 2021 3:58 am

Feb load factors for G4 at BLV

PGD 77%
PIE 70%
SFB 64%
VPS 64%
SRQ 61%
FLL 57%
LAS 53%
AZA 43%
 
Jshank83
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat May 15, 2021 2:41 pm

Noticed a 2nd WN Cun flight added on May 26th. Lots of unavailable flight from STL to cun even full days including flights with connections. Would be great to see a 2nd added regularly
 
Jshank83
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Sun May 16, 2021 10:58 pm

STL February Loads

AS SEA 40.5%

AA
CLT 75.61%
MIA 72.74
DFW 62.12%
PHX 56.4%
ORD 51.96%
PHL 44.9%

Delta (still blocking middles)
SLC 59.56%
MSP 56.53%
ATL 54.51%
LGA 45.17%
DTW 45.05%

Frontier
DEN 72.8%
MCO 60.98%
LAS 59.53%

SY RSW 61.16%

Southwest
RSW 83.35%
SLC 81.61%
MCO 81.23%
TPA 78.96%
MCI 73.82%
DEN 72.52%
MKE 71.5%
FLL 70.11%
LAS 69.05%
SMF 67.51%
PHX 67.15%
BWI 62.4%
HOU 62.37%
ATL 62.14%
OMA 60.49%
SAN 59.23%
BNA 57.03%
MDW 56.61%
DAL 54.6%
OKC 54.24%
MSY 50.96% (1x per week)
DCA 49.83%
DSM 49.55%
LAX 48.74%
AUS 45.64%
TUL 40.60%
ICT 39.36%
CLT 37.22%
LGA 37.06%
LIT 26.33%

United
DEN 80.36%
ORD 76.41%
IAD 72.86%
IAH 67.19%
EWR 64.83%

Full spreadsheet
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing
 
pmanni1
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon May 17, 2021 2:00 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
STL February Loads

AS SEA 40.5%

AA
CLT 75.61%
MIA 72.74
DFW 62.12%
PHX 56.4%
ORD 51.96%
PHL 44.9%

Delta (still blocking middles)
SLC 59.56%
MSP 56.53%
ATL 54.51%
LGA 45.17%
DTW 45.05%

Frontier
DEN 72.8%
MCO 60.98%
LAS 59.53%

SY RSW 61.16%

Southwest
RSW 83.35%
SLC 81.61%
MCO 81.23%
TPA 78.96%
MCI 73.82%
DEN 72.52%
MKE 71.5%
FLL 70.11%
LAS 69.05%
SMF 67.51%
PHX 67.15%
BWI 62.4%
HOU 62.37%
ATL 62.14%
OMA 60.49%
SAN 59.23%
BNA 57.03%
MDW 56.61%
DAL 54.6%
OKC 54.24%
MSY 50.96% (1x per week)
DCA 49.83%
DSM 49.55%
LAX 48.74%
AUS 45.64%
TUL 40.60%
ICT 39.36%
CLT 37.22%
LGA 37.06%
LIT 26.33%

United
DEN 80.36%
ORD 76.41%
IAD 72.86%
IAH 67.19%
EWR 64.83%

Full spreadsheet
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

Seems so random that SLC on WN would be nearly the top performer. Yikes LIT! I guess things can only go up from there.
 
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TWA302
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon May 17, 2021 4:44 pm

pmanni1 wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
STL February Loads

AS SEA 40.5%

AA
CLT 75.61%
MIA 72.74
DFW 62.12%
PHX 56.4%
ORD 51.96%
PHL 44.9%

Delta (still blocking middles)
SLC 59.56%
MSP 56.53%
ATL 54.51%
LGA 45.17%
DTW 45.05%

Frontier
DEN 72.8%
MCO 60.98%
LAS 59.53%

SY RSW 61.16%

Southwest
RSW 83.35%
SLC 81.61%
MCO 81.23%
TPA 78.96%
MCI 73.82%
DEN 72.52%
MKE 71.5%
FLL 70.11%
LAS 69.05%
SMF 67.51%
PHX 67.15%
BWI 62.4%
HOU 62.37%
ATL 62.14%
OMA 60.49%
SAN 59.23%
BNA 57.03%
MDW 56.61%
DAL 54.6%
OKC 54.24%
MSY 50.96% (1x per week)
DCA 49.83%
DSM 49.55%
LAX 48.74%
AUS 45.64%
TUL 40.60%
ICT 39.36%
CLT 37.22%
LGA 37.06%
LIT 26.33%

United
DEN 80.36%
ORD 76.41%
IAD 72.86%
IAH 67.19%
EWR 64.83%

Full spreadsheet
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

Seems so random that SLC on WN would be nearly the top performer. Yikes LIT! I guess things can only go up from there.


The reason why. Skiing and parks. Look at these numbers. https://www.deseret.com/utah/2021/5/10/22421023/utah-visitor-economy-recovery-covid-19-airlines-hotels-outdoor-recreation-convention-traffic
 
BHMNONREV
Posts: 1252
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 9:17 am

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon May 17, 2021 4:53 pm

pmanni1 wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
STL February Loads

AS SEA 40.5%

AA
CLT 75.61%
MIA 72.74
DFW 62.12%
PHX 56.4%
ORD 51.96%
PHL 44.9%

Delta (still blocking middles)
SLC 59.56%
MSP 56.53%
ATL 54.51%
LGA 45.17%
DTW 45.05%

Frontier
DEN 72.8%
MCO 60.98%
LAS 59.53%

SY RSW 61.16%

Southwest
RSW 83.35%
SLC 81.61%
MCO 81.23%
TPA 78.96%
MCI 73.82%
DEN 72.52%
MKE 71.5%
FLL 70.11%
LAS 69.05%
SMF 67.51%
PHX 67.15%
BWI 62.4%
HOU 62.37%
ATL 62.14%
OMA 60.49%
SAN 59.23%
BNA 57.03%
MDW 56.61%
DAL 54.6%
OKC 54.24%
MSY 50.96% (1x per week)
DCA 49.83%
DSM 49.55%
LAX 48.74%
AUS 45.64%
TUL 40.60%
ICT 39.36%
CLT 37.22%
LGA 37.06%
LIT 26.33%

United
DEN 80.36%
ORD 76.41%
IAD 72.86%
IAH 67.19%
EWR 64.83%

Full spreadsheet
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

Seems so random that SLC on WN would be nearly the top performer. Yikes LIT! I guess things can only go up from there.


IINM, even pre-pandemic the likes of LIT, ICT, TUL, etc.. were not exactly stellar performers. But in all fairness they would be expected to be lower since WN is all mainline, while LF% are nice they don't always tell the whole story.

On a side note, my continued thanks to Jshank83 for keeping the STL thread alive!
 
maps4ltd
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon May 17, 2021 5:19 pm

TWA302 wrote:
pmanni1 wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
STL February Loads

AS SEA 40.5%

AA
CLT 75.61%
MIA 72.74
DFW 62.12%
PHX 56.4%
ORD 51.96%
PHL 44.9%

Delta (still blocking middles)
SLC 59.56%
MSP 56.53%
ATL 54.51%
LGA 45.17%
DTW 45.05%

Frontier
DEN 72.8%
MCO 60.98%
LAS 59.53%

SY RSW 61.16%

Southwest
RSW 83.35%
SLC 81.61%
MCO 81.23%
TPA 78.96%
MCI 73.82%
DEN 72.52%
MKE 71.5%
FLL 70.11%
LAS 69.05%
SMF 67.51%
PHX 67.15%
BWI 62.4%
HOU 62.37%
ATL 62.14%
OMA 60.49%
SAN 59.23%
BNA 57.03%
MDW 56.61%
DAL 54.6%
OKC 54.24%
MSY 50.96% (1x per week)
DCA 49.83%
DSM 49.55%
LAX 48.74%
AUS 45.64%
TUL 40.60%
ICT 39.36%
CLT 37.22%
LGA 37.06%
LIT 26.33%

United
DEN 80.36%
ORD 76.41%
IAD 72.86%
IAH 67.19%
EWR 64.83%

Full spreadsheet
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

Seems so random that SLC on WN would be nearly the top performer. Yikes LIT! I guess things can only go up from there.


The reason why. Skiing and parks. Look at these numbers. https://www.deseret.com/utah/2021/5/10/22421023/utah-visitor-economy-recovery-covid-19-airlines-hotels-outdoor-recreation-convention-traffic


I flew out to SLC during spring break. Full (excluding blocked middles) going out on Delta, 85% full coming back on Southwest.
Next flights:
Who knows? :/
 
Jshank83
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon May 17, 2021 6:35 pm

The airport said during their commission meetings that Montana has some of their highest demand. SLC isn’t Montana but there might be some overlap there.

2019 full year

LIT 73%
ICT 79.5%
TUL 78%
DSM 79.7%
 
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TWA302
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon May 17, 2021 8:15 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
The airport said during their commission meetings that Montana has some of their highest demand. SLC isn’t Montana but there might be some overlap there.

2019 full year

LIT 73%
ICT 79.5%
TUL 78%
DSM 79.7%


Those TUL and DSM flights were always pretty packed. I guess since connections tapered off during the pandemic, those that travelled went through MDW/DAL/DEN versus here. I expect them to ramp back up and we will see those high 70s again.
 
dcaproducer
Posts: 420
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon May 17, 2021 10:55 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
The airport said during their commission meetings that Montana has some of their highest demand. SLC isn’t Montana but there might be some overlap there.

2019 full year

LIT 73%
ICT 79.5%
TUL 78%
DSM 79.7%


On DL, SLC is a big connecting point for Wyoming, Idaho, Montana, etc. MSP to an extent as well.
 
Jshank83
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Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue May 18, 2021 4:01 am

G4 extended their schedule. Aza is back starting Dec 17
 
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symphonicpoet
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed May 19, 2021 8:00 am

Jshank83 wrote:
So I got some free time tonight to dig into gate stuff, floorplans and google earth.

Right now gates are painted to C33/34. There are 3 gates after those in C with doors. At the moment there is only room for one more but they painted the last few gates wide (about 20 feet wider than a 737 needs) so they could scrunch them and get in 2 most likely.


Looking back at the historic aerials it looks like in 1995, when the thing was wall to wall TWA T-tails, C was lined for 27 gates. (28 if you count the one occupied by the mobile lounge/shuttle, which should be C-19 now.) B73s and A32s are a little wingier than DC9s and MD80s, to be fair. But ERJs and CRJs are comparable to smaller, so on average maybe things come out fairly similar? Do you think it's reasonable to assume that 27 is pretty close to a practical maximum with more or less modern aircraft?

Ironically, American seems to have actually squeezed more gates in sometime between 2002 and 2004. (They relined the south side of the concourse for smaller RJs, bringing the total up to 30. They used at least one split jet bridge, which might explain the oddball gate numbers with no doors, like 23. Oddly the floorplan I have just looks to be wrong there, putting the door at 23, but from the photographic evidence it was always at 21. Wouldn't surprise me if there are some quite deliberate mistakes in the old public plans.)

The current layout of doors, in any case, seems to reflect that last major AA overhaul. I could easily buy that the EAS props could be moved to the old Ozark ground gates in D, freeing up space, but probably not AE RJ grade space. (Lord, those first few gates were tight! Looks like what had been 7 MD-80 gates and that mobile lounge became 10 ERJ-145 gates.) The wide gates at the end of C must still be lined with widebodies in mind. Which makes good sense. Plan for the future you want.
TW AA MU JL KE DL UA LOF GJS SKW WN VN
STL JFK FRA GVA CDG IAD ORD PVG SGN NRT ICN ATL SFO HKG MDW LGA BNA DTW LHR
L1011 MD82 83 88 B737 738 741 744 762 763 772 773 777 A320 330 350 E175 C700
 
dcaproducer
Posts: 420
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:26 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed May 19, 2021 3:36 pm

symphonicpoet wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
So I got some free time tonight to dig into gate stuff, floorplans and google earth.

Right now gates are painted to C33/34. There are 3 gates after those in C with doors. At the moment there is only room for one more but they painted the last few gates wide (about 20 feet wider than a 737 needs) so they could scrunch them and get in 2 most likely.


Looking back at the historic aerials it looks like in 1995, when the thing was wall to wall TWA T-tails, C was lined for 27 gates. (28 if you count the one occupied by the mobile lounge/shuttle, which should be C-19 now.) B73s and A32s are a little wingier than DC9s and MD80s, to be fair. But ERJs and CRJs are comparable to smaller, so on average maybe things come out fairly similar? Do you think it's reasonable to assume that 27 is pretty close to a practical maximum with more or less modern aircraft?

Ironically, American seems to have actually squeezed more gates in sometime between 2002 and 2004. (They relined the south side of the concourse for smaller RJs, bringing the total up to 30. They used at least one split jet bridge, which might explain the oddball gate numbers with no doors, like 23. Oddly the floorplan I have just looks to be wrong there, putting the door at 23, but from the photographic evidence it was always at 21. Wouldn't surprise me if there are some quite deliberate mistakes in the old public plans.)

The current layout of doors, in any case, seems to reflect that last major AA overhaul. I could easily buy that the EAS props could be moved to the old Ozark ground gates in D, freeing up space, but probably not AE RJ grade space. (Lord, those first few gates were tight! Looks like what had been 7 MD-80 gates and that mobile lounge became 10 ERJ-145 gates.) The wide gates at the end of C must still be lined with widebodies in mind. Which makes good sense. Plan for the future you want.


TWA used to line up L1011's, 757's and 727s on the north side of C. The south side was all 727s, DC9's, etc.
Looking at wingspan data:

MD80's 108'
A321 112'
738 117' 5"
757 125'
L1011 155-164' (varied by variant)
A220 115'
767 156'
E175 86'
CR9 82'

Looking at the Google view of the terminal, I count (30) doors/jet bridges. This is going by the satellite image of the door/gate numbers that are on the side of the concourse, not what's painted on the ground.
 
Jshank83
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed May 19, 2021 4:00 pm

BLV expansion to be completed a year earlier than expected due to the grant they received. Now will be finished Dec 2022

https://www.bnd.com/news/local/article251470728.html
 
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TWA302
Posts: 941
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed May 19, 2021 5:07 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
BLV expansion to be completed a year earlier than expected due to the grant they received. Now will be finished Dec 2022

https://www.bnd.com/news/local/article251470728.html


And if they are awarded that small community grant, they will really be in business. Really glad to see BLV rising from the ashes.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 4187
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed May 19, 2021 5:13 pm

[twoid][/twoid]
TWA302 wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
BLV expansion to be completed a year earlier than expected due to the grant they received. Now will be finished Dec 2022

https://www.bnd.com/news/local/article251470728.html


And if they are awarded that small community grant, they will really be in business. Really glad to see BLV rising from the ashes.


I emailed with the director at BLV a couple days ago and he was pretty tight lipped on things. Basically said what was said in the article. The master plan site is down but said it should be back up a week or so with updates.
 
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symphonicpoet
Posts: 70
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu May 20, 2021 5:48 am

dcaproducer wrote:
symphonicpoet wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
So I got some free time tonight to dig into gate stuff, floorplans and google earth.

Right now gates are painted to C33/34. There are 3 gates after those in C with doors. At the moment there is only room for one more but they painted the last few gates wide (about 20 feet wider than a 737 needs) so they could scrunch them and get in 2 most likely.


Looking back at the historic aerials it looks like in 1995, when the thing was wall to wall TWA T-tails, C was lined for 27 gates. (28 if you count the one occupied by the mobile lounge/shuttle, which should be C-19 now.) B73s and A32s are a little wingier than DC9s and MD80s, to be fair. But ERJs and CRJs are comparable to smaller, so on average maybe things come out fairly similar? Do you think it's reasonable to assume that 27 is pretty close to a practical maximum with more or less modern aircraft?

Ironically, American seems to have actually squeezed more gates in sometime between 2002 and 2004. (They relined the south side of the concourse for smaller RJs, bringing the total up to 30. They used at least one split jet bridge, which might explain the oddball gate numbers with no doors, like 23. Oddly the floorplan I have just looks to be wrong there, putting the door at 23, but from the photographic evidence it was always at 21. Wouldn't surprise me if there are some quite deliberate mistakes in the old public plans.)

The current layout of doors, in any case, seems to reflect that last major AA overhaul. I could easily buy that the EAS props could be moved to the old Ozark ground gates in D, freeing up space, but probably not AE RJ grade space. (Lord, those first few gates were tight! Looks like what had been 7 MD-80 gates and that mobile lounge became 10 ERJ-145 gates.) The wide gates at the end of C must still be lined with widebodies in mind. Which makes good sense. Plan for the future you want.


TWA used to line up L1011's, 757's and 727s on the north side of C. The south side was all 727s, DC9's, etc.
Looking at wingspan data:

MD80's 108'
A321 112'
738 117' 5"
757 125'
L1011 155-164' (varied by variant)
A220 115'
767 156'
E175 86'
CR9 82'

Looking at the Google view of the terminal, I count (30) doors/jet bridges. This is going by the satellite image of the door/gate numbers that are on the side of the concourse, not what's painted on the ground.


The 30 gates dates to a day when AA was operating a fleet of ERJ-140s in and out of STL. St. Louis County has a nice open government viewer with all their historic aerials (going back to the 30s.) It's a similar, but larger dataset than Google Earth. (At least for the county.) It's not 3D, so you can't count doors, but you can see the jetbridges easily enough. And having a copy of the floorplans from the last competition study I can make comparisons to existing conditions. If you bounce back and forth between dates you can see that AA added gates sometime between 2002 (the last date when there were 27 jetbridges) and 2004. And you can pretty well match the 2004 gates up with what's there now. So my question, given the relative sizes and capacities of a fleet composed of MD80s, L10s, B72s, 75s, 76s, 742s (for which C was lined in 1995) vs one made up of E175s. CR9s, A32s, B73s, and maybe (with enormous luck) 77s or 78s would 27 seem like a reasonable maximum?

I would love to see widebodies back at the end of C on the regular. My very first flight was a TWA L-1011 out of what would now be C-36. (But would have been numbered differently in 1992. They used to have a consecutive numbering scheme that made it alarmingly possible to rush to the end of the wrong concourse if you were in a hurry and didn't look very carefully at the signs.)
TW AA MU JL KE DL UA LOF GJS SKW WN VN
STL JFK FRA GVA CDG IAD ORD PVG SGN NRT ICN ATL SFO HKG MDW LGA BNA DTW LHR
L1011 MD82 83 88 B737 738 741 744 762 763 772 773 777 A320 330 350 E175 C700
 
dcaproducer
Posts: 420
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:26 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu May 20, 2021 11:30 am

symphonicpoet wrote:
dcaproducer wrote:
symphonicpoet wrote:

Looking back at the historic aerials it looks like in 1995, when the thing was wall to wall TWA T-tails, C was lined for 27 gates. (28 if you count the one occupied by the mobile lounge/shuttle, which should be C-19 now.) B73s and A32s are a little wingier than DC9s and MD80s, to be fair. But ERJs and CRJs are comparable to smaller, so on average maybe things come out fairly similar? Do you think it's reasonable to assume that 27 is pretty close to a practical maximum with more or less modern aircraft?

Ironically, American seems to have actually squeezed more gates in sometime between 2002 and 2004. (They relined the south side of the concourse for smaller RJs, bringing the total up to 30. They used at least one split jet bridge, which might explain the oddball gate numbers with no doors, like 23. Oddly the floorplan I have just looks to be wrong there, putting the door at 23, but from the photographic evidence it was always at 21. Wouldn't surprise me if there are some quite deliberate mistakes in the old public plans.)

The current layout of doors, in any case, seems to reflect that last major AA overhaul. I could easily buy that the EAS props could be moved to the old Ozark ground gates in D, freeing up space, but probably not AE RJ grade space. (Lord, those first few gates were tight! Looks like what had been 7 MD-80 gates and that mobile lounge became 10 ERJ-145 gates.) The wide gates at the end of C must still be lined with widebodies in mind. Which makes good sense. Plan for the future you want.


TWA used to line up L1011's, 757's and 727s on the north side of C. The south side was all 727s, DC9's, etc.
Looking at wingspan data:

MD80's 108'
A321 112'
738 117' 5"
757 125'
L1011 155-164' (varied by variant)
A220 115'
767 156'
E175 86'
CR9 82'

Looking at the Google view of the terminal, I count (30) doors/jet bridges. This is going by the satellite image of the door/gate numbers that are on the side of the concourse, not what's painted on the ground.


The 30 gates dates to a day when AA was operating a fleet of ERJ-140s in and out of STL. St. Louis County has a nice open government viewer with all their historic aerials (going back to the 30s.) It's a similar, but larger dataset than Google Earth. (At least for the county.) It's not 3D, so you can't count doors, but you can see the jetbridges easily enough. And having a copy of the floorplans from the last competition study I can make comparisons to existing conditions. If you bounce back and forth between dates you can see that AA added gates sometime between 2002 (the last date when there were 27 jetbridges) and 2004. And you can pretty well match the 2004 gates up with what's there now. So my question, given the relative sizes and capacities of a fleet composed of MD80s, L10s, B72s, 75s, 76s, 742s (for which C was lined in 1995) vs one made up of E175s. CR9s, A32s, B73s, and maybe (with enormous luck) 77s or 78s would 27 seem like a reasonable maximum?

I would love to see widebodies back at the end of C on the regular. My very first flight was a TWA L-1011 out of what would now be C-36. (But would have been numbered differently in 1992. They used to have a consecutive numbering scheme that made it alarmingly possible to rush to the end of the wrong concourse if you were in a hurry and didn't look very carefully at the signs.)


I think that 27 is reasonable. The wide body gates are definitely the north side of C near the end and the end of C. 5-6 of those is probably all they need. With that said, think of who’s currently in C and who could be in C. Spirit & Frontier don’t fly any regional jets. (If they come, JetBlue flies the 190 and A320/1) I think planning gates to hold, at minimum, the A320/B737 fleet makes sense. It will be interesting to see how NK does and how many gates they eventually expand to.
 
atrude777
Posts: 4465
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu May 20, 2021 5:17 pm

Proposals are in for CGI-Cape Girardeau, Missouri.

Air Choice One is offering a 2 or 4 Year Contract to STL and BNA.
DOT-OST-1996-1559-0106

SkyWest is offering their continued service, but making it a THREE year contract 12 weekly to Chicago.
DOT-OST-1996-1559-0105

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
Jshank83
Posts: 4187
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri May 21, 2021 4:36 am

So even though Marion has 2 years left on their EAS contract they are trying to get the state to subsidize a flight to Chicago (I’d guess Skywest).

Not really sure how that is going to work when they are going off a subsidy for the EAS bid and that is going off the assumption that it would only be one airline, not two, competing for customers.

In theory I guess it could be for cape air to add a destination but that wasn’t how I took it.

https://www.kfvs12.com/2021/05/20/heart ... s-chicago/
 
User avatar
stl07
Posts: 2779
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 8:57 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri May 21, 2021 6:13 am

I think that cape air and air choice one are done for, esp. air choice one with no codeshares
Instead of typing in "mods", consider using the report function.
Love how every "travel blogger" says they will never fly AA/Ethihad again and then says it again and again on subsequent flights.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 4187
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri May 21, 2021 7:05 am

stl07 wrote:
I think that cape air and air choice one are done for, esp. air choice one with no codeshares


Cape air I think will be okay. I’d expect Quincy to choose them again (we find out June 6) Air choice on the other hand... I think air choice has a legitimate shot to win Fort Leonard wood but that’s the only bid I can see them winning anytime soon.
 
atrude777
Posts: 4465
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri May 21, 2021 5:44 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
So even though Marion has 2 years left on their EAS contract they are trying to get the state to subsidize a flight to Chicago (I’d guess Skywest).

Not really sure how that is going to work when they are going off a subsidy for the EAS bid and that is going off the assumption that it would only be one airline, not two, competing for customers.

In theory I guess it could be for cape air to add a destination but that wasn’t how I took it.

https://www.kfvs12.com/2021/05/20/heart ... s-chicago/


I'm excited!

*A guy who lives in Chicago and is from Carbondale/Marion Region!

JShanks is correct, they are using the pricing of $90 off the EAS Bid. In their proposal they asked SkyWest how much it would cost to fly one flight, and they did say with the subsidiary from the State, around $90 dollars. Not including bag fees and taxes and such of course!

However, a proposal was submitted from what I heard from the folks in my hometown, 75 letters of interest were submitted by the region to support Chicago Flights.

The funds would NOT come from EAS but from the State of Illinois. They are asking Illinois which has a Fund to promote and support Interstate travel, be it Interstates, or Amtrak or Air Travel.

If approved, Cape Air would keep their contract for the remaining two years, EAS would still be allowed. The proposal would be 5 flights a week, one flight a day. No flights on Tuesday or Saturdays.

When they did the bid for Cape Air, I was under the understanding that Cape Air said No to flying MWA-ORD, it would be a 2 hour and a half flight on the Tecnam, with no bathroom on board. Not impossible for the plane however. Which is why STL and BNA was offered by Cape Air instead.

I just want SOMEONE to fly from Chicago to Marion, even if I have to peddle myself like a bicycle LOL.

Cape Air, I also believe will be fine, but Air Choice is sadly losing a lot of cities.

Quincy is up next as Jshanks said, then we have TBN also waiting to decide too. CGI has to submit their decision by June 11th.

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
dcaproducer
Posts: 420
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:26 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri May 21, 2021 6:16 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
[twoid][/twoid]
TWA302 wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
BLV expansion to be completed a year earlier than expected due to the grant they received. Now will be finished Dec 2022

https://www.bnd.com/news/local/article251470728.html


And if they are awarded that small community grant, they will really be in business. Really glad to see BLV rising from the ashes.


I emailed with the director at BLV a couple days ago and he was pretty tight lipped on things. Basically said what was said in the article. The master plan site is down but said it should be back up a week or so with updates.


Is terminal expansion work underway? Any update photos/progress from the construction?
 
User avatar
stl07
Posts: 2779
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri May 21, 2021 6:46 pm

Didn't expect breeze to come here with WN's strong domestic growth along with AA and UA filling of the remaining some holes. I no longer consider our airport to be "underserved"
Instead of typing in "mods", consider using the report function.
Love how every "travel blogger" says they will never fly AA/Ethihad again and then says it again and again on subsequent flights.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 4187
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri May 21, 2021 6:59 pm

dcaproducer wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
[twoid][/twoid]
TWA302 wrote:

And if they are awarded that small community grant, they will really be in business. Really glad to see BLV rising from the ashes.


I emailed with the director at BLV a couple days ago and he was pretty tight lipped on things. Basically said what was said in the article. The master plan site is down but said it should be back up a week or so with updates.


Is terminal expansion work underway? Any update photos/progress from the construction?


Yes it is. No update or photos. I am hoping when they get their master plan site back up it has some.
 
Jshank83
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri May 21, 2021 7:27 pm

Sounds like Boutique is going into C9. They were removing the jet bridge yesterday. They start service to MKL on June 1 (take over from Air Choice One)
 
Jshank83
Posts: 4187
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri May 21, 2021 7:49 pm

dcaproducer wrote:
symphonicpoet wrote:
dcaproducer wrote:

TWA used to line up L1011's, 757's and 727s on the north side of C. The south side was all 727s, DC9's, etc.
Looking at wingspan data:

MD80's 108'
A321 112'
738 117' 5"
757 125'
L1011 155-164' (varied by variant)
A220 115'
767 156'
E175 86'
CR9 82'

Looking at the Google view of the terminal, I count (30) doors/jet bridges. This is going by the satellite image of the door/gate numbers that are on the side of the concourse, not what's painted on the ground.


The 30 gates dates to a day when AA was operating a fleet of ERJ-140s in and out of STL. St. Louis County has a nice open government viewer with all their historic aerials (going back to the 30s.) It's a similar, but larger dataset than Google Earth. (At least for the county.) It's not 3D, so you can't count doors, but you can see the jetbridges easily enough. And having a copy of the floorplans from the last competition study I can make comparisons to existing conditions. If you bounce back and forth between dates you can see that AA added gates sometime between 2002 (the last date when there were 27 jetbridges) and 2004. And you can pretty well match the 2004 gates up with what's there now. So my question, given the relative sizes and capacities of a fleet composed of MD80s, L10s, B72s, 75s, 76s, 742s (for which C was lined in 1995) vs one made up of E175s. CR9s, A32s, B73s, and maybe (with enormous luck) 77s or 78s would 27 seem like a reasonable maximum?

I would love to see widebodies back at the end of C on the regular. My very first flight was a TWA L-1011 out of what would now be C-36. (But would have been numbered differently in 1992. They used to have a consecutive numbering scheme that made it alarmingly possible to rush to the end of the wrong concourse if you were in a hurry and didn't look very carefully at the signs.)


I think that 27 is reasonable. The wide body gates are definitely the north side of C near the end and the end of C. 5-6 of those is probably all they need. With that said, think of who’s currently in C and who could be in C. Spirit & Frontier don’t fly any regional jets. (If they come, JetBlue flies the 190 and A320/1) I think planning gates to hold, at minimum, the A320/B737 fleet makes sense. It will be interesting to see how NK does and how many gates they eventually expand to.


Adding up all the painted footprints and using the Southwest 737 sized painted spots as reference for areas that are not painted, I get room for 24 planes. This includes getting moving the EAS airlines and opening C2 back up. Maybe you can move some stuff around on the odd number side and get 1 extra.

C28/30 are painted for wide bodies. A lot of the rest are 140 across and 737 are 120 so in theory you could pick up a little room, but some of that already is needed to get 2 more into the end that aren't painted yet (which I included in my 24 count).
 
dcaproducer
Posts: 420
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:26 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri May 21, 2021 9:39 pm

stl07 wrote:
Didn't expect breeze to come here with WN's strong domestic growth along with AA and UA filling of the remaining some holes. I no longer consider our airport to be "underserved"


Maybe I’m reading this wrong, but are you saying they’re coming to STL? Breeze didn’t announce STL as a destination.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 4187
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri May 21, 2021 9:56 pm

Southwest added a Sunday flight from STL-MBJ from June 6 to September 5th. So now it will fly Saturday and Sunday during summer. Nice to see more international flights. Keep hoping we see a 2nd CUN more often than a one off. Only 5 cities fly to MBJ for WN. Nice to be one of them. MCO/MDW/HOU/BWI are the others
 
User avatar
stl07
Posts: 2779
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 8:57 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri May 21, 2021 10:07 pm

dcaproducer wrote:
stl07 wrote:
Didn't expect breeze to come here with WN's strong domestic growth along with AA and UA filling of the remaining some holes. I no longer consider our airport to be "underserved"


Maybe I’m reading this wrong, but are you saying they’re coming to STL? Breeze didn’t announce STL as a destination.

I mean I did not expect them to come here, and my expectation was correct. I'm sure one day they will, but their target market is underserved airports and we are by no means underserved at this point, especially on the domestic front
Instead of typing in "mods", consider using the report function.
Love how every "travel blogger" says they will never fly AA/Ethihad again and then says it again and again on subsequent flights.
 
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symphonicpoet
Posts: 70
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat May 22, 2021 5:46 am

Jshank83 wrote:

Adding up all the painted footprints and using the Southwest 737 sized painted spots as reference for areas that are not painted, I get room for 24 planes. This includes getting moving the EAS airlines and opening C2 back up. Maybe you can move some stuff around on the odd number side and get 1 extra.

C28/30 are painted for wide bodies. A lot of the rest are 140 across and 737 are 120 so in theory you could pick up a little room, but some of that already is needed to get 2 more into the end that aren't painted yet (which I included in my 24 count).


You think they'd stripe everything 737 minimum? To get back to 27 they would have to stripe some things smaller, but I figure there's always going to be a mix of more modest aircraft going in there as well. Of course . . . if you don't need 27 gates then 24 big gates is more flexible, so maybe that'd be the math anyway. I expect someone out at STL has done that bit of math four different ways. Would love to be the fly violating their office airspace so I could see those plans. ;-) (Just watch out for the countermeasures.)
TW AA MU JL KE DL UA LOF GJS SKW WN VN
STL JFK FRA GVA CDG IAD ORD PVG SGN NRT ICN ATL SFO HKG MDW LGA BNA DTW LHR
L1011 MD82 83 88 B737 738 741 744 762 763 772 773 777 A320 330 350 E175 C700
 
dcaproducer
Posts: 420
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:26 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat May 22, 2021 1:06 pm

stl07 wrote:
dcaproducer wrote:
stl07 wrote:
Didn't expect breeze to come here with WN's strong domestic growth along with AA and UA filling of the remaining some holes. I no longer consider our airport to be "underserved"


Maybe I’m reading this wrong, but are you saying they’re coming to STL? Breeze didn’t announce STL as a destination.

I mean I did not expect them to come here, and my expectation was correct. I'm sure one day they will, but their target market is underserved airports and we are by no means underserved at this point, especially on the domestic front


Got it. That’s kinda what I thought after posting. I think it will be interesting to see how they do as an airline with some rather odd routes.

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