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QXorVX
Posts: 76
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2016 5:45 am

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat May 22, 2021 2:10 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
So even though Marion has 2 years left on their EAS contract they are trying to get the state to subsidize a flight to Chicago (I’d guess Skywest).

Not really sure how that is going to work when they are going off a subsidy for the EAS bid and that is going off the assumption that it would only be one airline, not two, competing for customers.

In theory I guess it could be for cape air to add a destination but that wasn’t how I took it.

https://www.kfvs12.com/2021/05/20/heart ... s-chicago/


This is kind of an interesting situation. Remind me, did Marion prefer the SkyWest bid over Cape Air when this was up the last time?

It almost seems to undermine the EAS situation if this does go through. I imagine some traffic would be stimulated with an ORD connection, but it will surely pull some traffic from STL connections.
 
pmanni1
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat May 22, 2021 6:27 pm

Interesting to note that in June WN moves most of the afternoon west coast bank to mornings. SEA,PDX,SMF,LGB,LAX,SNA are all mornings while OAK,SJC & SAN (and 2nd LAX) are all moved to late afternoon.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 4314
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat May 22, 2021 6:45 pm

pmanni1 wrote:
Interesting to note that in June WN moves most of the afternoon west coast bank to mornings. SEA,PDX,SMF,LGB,LAX,SNA are all mornings while OAK,SJC & SAN (and 2nd LAX) are all moved to late afternoon.


I am personally happy the OAK is pushed back so now I can get in a mostly full day of work. I guess they wanted those early ones in the first connecting bank. Guessing many will be thrus from the east coast. Can get them to Cali earlier than the midday bank.

BOS-STL-LGB
BWI-STL-SMF
TPA-STL-SEA
 
atrude777
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat May 22, 2021 7:40 pm

QXorVX wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
So even though Marion has 2 years left on their EAS contract they are trying to get the state to subsidize a flight to Chicago (I’d guess Skywest).

Not really sure how that is going to work when they are going off a subsidy for the EAS bid and that is going off the assumption that it would only be one airline, not two, competing for customers.

In theory I guess it could be for cape air to add a destination but that wasn’t how I took it.

https://www.kfvs12.com/2021/05/20/heart ... s-chicago/


This is kind of an interesting situation. Remind me, did Marion prefer the SkyWest bid over Cape Air when this was up the last time?

It almost seems to undermine the EAS situation if this does go through. I imagine some traffic would be stimulated with an ORD connection, but it will surely pull some traffic from STL connections.


The Marion Board unanimously voted for Cape Air to STL and BNA. They put it up for a community vote, Cape Air won.

I voted for SkyWest.

I don’t know if COVID changed the business plans or ideas, but the local businesses more then ever have really been pushing to get a Chicago flight.

Whether they can get the State Funding for it...I am cautiously excited but not expecting it to happen and that we will remain with STL and BNA on Cape Air.

I just flew into Paducah and drove to Marion because I can’t fly non stop into Marion from Chicago. I of course would love it!

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
Jshank83
Posts: 4314
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat May 22, 2021 7:44 pm

atrude777 wrote:
QXorVX wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
So even though Marion has 2 years left on their EAS contract they are trying to get the state to subsidize a flight to Chicago (I’d guess Skywest).

Not really sure how that is going to work when they are going off a subsidy for the EAS bid and that is going off the assumption that it would only be one airline, not two, competing for customers.

In theory I guess it could be for cape air to add a destination but that wasn’t how I took it.

https://www.kfvs12.com/2021/05/20/heart ... s-chicago/


This is kind of an interesting situation. Remind me, did Marion prefer the SkyWest bid over Cape Air when this was up the last time?

It almost seems to undermine the EAS situation if this does go through. I imagine some traffic would be stimulated with an ORD connection, but it will surely pull some traffic from STL connections.


The Marion Board unanimously voted for Cape Air to STL and BNA. They put it up for a community vote, Cape Air won.

I voted for SkyWest.

I don’t know if COVID changed the business plans or ideas, but the local businesses more then ever have really been pushing to get a Chicago flight.

Whether they can get the State Funding for it...I am cautiously excited but not expecting it to happen and that we will remain with STL and BNA on Cape Air.

I just flew into Paducah and drove to Marion because I can’t fly non stop into Marion from Chicago. I of course would love it!

Alex



It seems like a lot of these Cape Air vs Skywest situations are the general population want to keep a STL link but businesses what Chicago.
 
QXorVX
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat May 22, 2021 8:28 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
atrude777 wrote:
QXorVX wrote:

...


The Marion Board unanimously voted for Cape Air to STL and BNA. They put it up for a community vote, Cape Air won.

I voted for SkyWest.

I don’t know if COVID changed the business plans or ideas, but the local businesses more then ever have really been pushing to get a Chicago flight.

Whether they can get the State Funding for it...I am cautiously excited but not expecting it to happen and that we will remain with STL and BNA on Cape Air.

I just flew into Paducah and drove to Marion because I can’t fly non stop into Marion from Chicago. I of course would love it!

Alex



It seems like a lot of these Cape Air vs Skywest situations are the general population want to keep a STL link but businesses what Chicago.


I wonder if on paper an ORD connection sounds rough to the general traveling public vs. the much quieter STL- even if in the end ORD would probably be more beneficial for massively increased connection opportunities to all passengers.

It is a shame we have pivoted away from regional turboprops in the US. MWA/CGI/PAH are perfectly within the scope of an efficient 30 seater tied to a major carrier making sense. The 'EAS prop fleet' isn't quit enough airplane while the CRJ/ERJ might be a bit too much.
 
atrude777
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat May 22, 2021 9:41 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
It seems like a lot of these Cape Air vs Skywest situations are the general population want to keep a STL link but businesses what Chicago.


I agree, I would love both! STL and Chicago.

I just don't see a need for Nashville from Marion. Reading the comments locally it seemed most were excited about Nashville because of Southwest in Nashville too, and British Airways in BNA. I simply said "You have SWA in STL and had you gone for Chicago, you'd have more then just BA, in addition to the world...

Cest La Vie!

STL and Chicago I think would be perfect for MWA, but we can't have both.


QXorVX wrote:
I wonder if on paper an ORD connection sounds rough to the general traveling public vs. the much quieter STL- even if in the end ORD would probably be more beneficial for massively increased connection opportunities to all passengers.

It is a shame we have pivoted away from regional turboprops in the US. MWA/CGI/PAH are perfectly within the scope of an efficient 30 seater tied to a major carrier making sense. The 'EAS prop fleet' isn't quit enough airplane while the CRJ/ERJ might be a bit too much.


I think that's exactly it. The comment I saw with the public in Marion was "Chicago is too big, Chicago is too mean, etc" So as you said, it sounds rough on paper, but Chicago I would imagine is more beneficial.

I know another reason Cape Air won over SkyWest in the last bid was the number of flights. They liked the idea of having two destinations and 6 flights, 4 to STL and 2 to BNA. The problem is now I am noticing but not having six to one city and splitting it, you're making the connections a LOT longer and harder. Especially on the weekends. When I book between Marion and Chicago, my layovers can be 4-6 hours. I have a MWA-BNA-ORD flight...6 hour layover in BNA...

I never understood with EAS flying to a city you can drive in two hours, versus Chicago, a 5 hour drive.

30 Seater would be perfect! I don't care if it's jet or prop, and I agree it needs to have a codeshare under it too.

That's why I was rooting for SkyWest/UA to Chicago, but I would take AA to DFW/CLT, Delta to Atlanta, I can drive to STL from MWA in the same time it takes to drive to MWA, show up at airport and fly to STL...

It made sense when TWA had a hub, we have no hub. The one airline that has a large operation, you cannot even interline with--Southwest.

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
maps4ltd
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Sun May 23, 2021 7:56 pm

Here are the most trafficked routes from St. Louis from March 2020 to February 2021 (per Wikipedia and, thus, Transtats)
1 Denver, Colorado 176,160 Frontier, Southwest, United
2 Atlanta, Georgia 152,620 Delta, Southwest
3 Dallas/Fort Worth, Texas 121,010 American
4 Orlando, Florida 112,220 Delta, Frontier, Southwest
5 Phoenix, Arizona 111,440 American, Southwest
6 Charlotte, North Carolina 104,190 American
7 Dallas–Love, Texas 92,860 Southwest
8 Las Vegas, Nevada 92,300 Frontier, Southwest, Sun Country
9 Chicago–O'Hare, Illinois 83,420 American, United
10 Fort Myers, Florida 67,360 Southwest, Sun Country

Compare it to the list far March 2019 to February 2020:

1 Atlanta, Georgia 522,210 Delta, Southwest
2 Denver, Colorado 419,030 Frontier, Southwest, United
3 Chicago–O'Hare, Illinois 331,280 American, United
4 Dallas/Fort Worth, Texas 299,000 American
5 Orlando, Florida 291,510 Delta, Frontier, Southwest
6 New York–LaGuardia, New York 265,110 American, Delta, Southwest
7 Phoenix, Arizona 263,360 American, Southwest
8 Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota 263,320 Delta, Southwest
9 Las Vegas, Nevada 254,940 Frontier, Southwest
10 Washington–National, D.C. 235,960 American, Southwest

Things to note:
Business centers like DCA and LGA drop off the list completely. MSP also goes. ATL loses first to Denver; could be because of leisure travel, Delta's blocked seats, or both. AA connecting hubs win: CLT gets onto the list and DFW climbs from 4th to 3rd. DAL gets onto the list, as does RSW.

Really a good indication of changing travel trends.
All opinions expressed herein are mine and do not represent the views of Cape Air
 
Lilj4425
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Sun May 23, 2021 8:07 pm

How in the world do both Charlotte and Raleigh have non-stop direct service to London but neither St. Louis or Kansas City do? Makes no sense. There is a huge hole over the middle part of the country when it comes to that service:

Image
 
jplatts
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Sun May 23, 2021 10:04 pm

Lilj4425 wrote:
How in the world do both Charlotte and Raleigh have non-stop direct service to London but neither St. Louis or Kansas City do? Makes no sense.


I can understand CLT having nonstop service to LHR due to the AA CLT hub, the AA-BA partnership, and the significant connecting feed that is there on both ends of the CLT-LHR route with the AA CLT hub and BA LHR hub.

On the other hand, AA didn't have significant connecting feed on the RDU end of the RDU-LHR route and was primarily operating RDU-LHR for RDU-LON O&D and RDU-Europe connections.

BA adding STL-LHR nonstop service might be a possibility if there is enough demand to Europe from STL with the significant amount of connecting opportunities that are there to other European destinations through LHR on BA. BA had also served LHR nonstop from some non-AA hub cities in the U.S. prior to the COVID-19 pandemic.
 
Jshank83
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon May 24, 2021 1:14 am

Lilj4425 wrote:
How in the world do both Charlotte and Raleigh have non-stop direct service to London but neither St. Louis or Kansas City do? Makes no sense. There is a huge hole over the middle part of the country when it comes to that service:

Image


I think they were able to start RDU on a 757 to build demand to where it is now. They also have some AA feed.

CLT is a huge AA hub
 
Jshank83
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon May 24, 2021 3:47 am

August updates by UA. SFO pushed back another month.
 
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stl07
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon May 24, 2021 5:53 am

maps4ltd wrote:
Here are the most trafficked routes from St. Louis from March 2020 to February 2021 (per Wikipedia and, thus, Transtats)
1 Denver, Colorado 176,160 Frontier, Southwest, United
2 Atlanta, Georgia 152,620 Delta, Southwest
3 Dallas/Fort Worth, Texas 121,010 American
4 Orlando, Florida 112,220 Delta, Frontier, Southwest
5 Phoenix, Arizona 111,440 American, Southwest
6 Charlotte, North Carolina 104,190 American
7 Dallas–Love, Texas 92,860 Southwest
8 Las Vegas, Nevada 92,300 Frontier, Southwest, Sun Country
9 Chicago–O'Hare, Illinois 83,420 American, United
10 Fort Myers, Florida 67,360 Southwest, Sun Country

Compare it to the list far March 2019 to February 2020:

1 Atlanta, Georgia 522,210 Delta, Southwest
2 Denver, Colorado 419,030 Frontier, Southwest, United
3 Chicago–O'Hare, Illinois 331,280 American, United
4 Dallas/Fort Worth, Texas 299,000 American
5 Orlando, Florida 291,510 Delta, Frontier, Southwest
6 New York–LaGuardia, New York 265,110 American, Delta, Southwest
7 Phoenix, Arizona 263,360 American, Southwest
8 Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota 263,320 Delta, Southwest
9 Las Vegas, Nevada 254,940 Frontier, Southwest
10 Washington–National, D.C. 235,960 American, Southwest

Things to note:
Business centers like DCA and LGA drop off the list completely. MSP also goes. ATL loses first to Denver; could be because of leisure travel, Delta's blocked seats, or both. AA connecting hubs win: CLT gets onto the list and DFW climbs from 4th to 3rd. DAL gets onto the list, as does RSW.

Really a good indication of changing travel trends.

I'm surprised nobody else has hopped onto RSW and challenged WN apart from SY's seasonal once or twice a week flight
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MAH4546
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon May 24, 2021 8:04 am

Jshank83 wrote:
Lilj4425 wrote:
How in the world do both Charlotte and Raleigh have non-stop direct service to London but neither St. Louis or Kansas City do? Makes no sense. There is a huge hole over the middle part of the country when it comes to that service:

Image


I think they were able to start RDU on a 757 to build demand to where it is now. They also have some AA feed.

CLT is a huge AA hub


AA has never flown a 757 on Raleigh-London.

North Carolina has strong business demand to London and Missouri does not. Pharmaceutical demand from Raleigh and banking traffic from Charlotte.
a.
 
Jshank83
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon May 24, 2021 12:49 pm

MAH4546 wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
Lilj4425 wrote:
How in the world do both Charlotte and Raleigh have non-stop direct service to London but neither St. Louis or Kansas City do? Makes no sense. There is a huge hole over the middle part of the country when it comes to that service:

Image


I think they were able to start RDU on a 757 to build demand to where it is now. They also have some AA feed.

CLT is a huge AA hub


AA has never flown a 757 on Raleigh-London.

North Carolina has strong business demand to London and Missouri does not. Pharmaceutical demand from Raleigh and banking traffic from Charlotte.


From a Biz journal article in 2015.

Almost exactly 21 years ago, a 172-seat Boeing 757 took off on an eight-hour flight for London from Raleigh-Durham International Airport.

It was the debut of American Airlines’ London flight, which started at about $800, round trip.
 
PhilMcCrackin
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon May 24, 2021 6:01 pm

Lilj4425 wrote:
How in the world do both Charlotte and Raleigh have non-stop direct service to London but neither St. Louis or Kansas City do? Makes no sense. There is a huge hole over the middle part of the country when it comes to that service:

Image


Charlotte was a big US hub prior to the merger and still is a decent sized hub. Raleigh was started because of a revenue guarantee provided by GSK and several other pharma companies in the Research Triangle area. Not sure what it's operated by now, but it was a 77E for years when that was the only thing AA flew to LHR.
 
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TWA302
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon May 24, 2021 7:34 pm

PhilMcCrackin wrote:
Lilj4425 wrote:
How in the world do both Charlotte and Raleigh have non-stop direct service to London but neither St. Louis or Kansas City do? Makes no sense. There is a huge hole over the middle part of the country when it comes to that service:

Image


Charlotte was a big US hub prior to the merger and still is a decent sized hub. Raleigh was started because of a revenue guarantee provided by GSK and several other pharma companies in the Research Triangle area. Not sure what it's operated by now, but it was a 77E for years when that was the only thing AA flew to LHR.


2017 AA went from the 767 to 777 at RDU.
 
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TWA302
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon May 24, 2021 7:43 pm

QXorVX wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
atrude777 wrote:

The Marion Board unanimously voted for Cape Air to STL and BNA. They put it up for a community vote, Cape Air won.

I voted for SkyWest.

I don’t know if COVID changed the business plans or ideas, but the local businesses more then ever have really been pushing to get a Chicago flight.

Whether they can get the State Funding for it...I am cautiously excited but not expecting it to happen and that we will remain with STL and BNA on Cape Air.

I just flew into Paducah and drove to Marion because I can’t fly non stop into Marion from Chicago. I of course would love it!

Alex



It seems like a lot of these Cape Air vs Skywest situations are the general population want to keep a STL link but businesses what Chicago.


I wonder if on paper an ORD connection sounds rough to the general traveling public vs. the much quieter STL- even if in the end ORD would probably be more beneficial for massively increased connection opportunities to all passengers.

It is a shame we have pivoted away from regional turboprops in the US. MWA/CGI/PAH are perfectly within the scope of an efficient 30 seater tied to a major carrier making sense. The 'EAS prop fleet' isn't quit enough airplane while the CRJ/ERJ might be a bit too much.


Would it be beyond a possibility for some EAS carrier to add ATRs to their fleet? Not sure if there is a limitation on plane size?
 
QXorVX
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon May 24, 2021 7:56 pm

TWA302 wrote:
QXorVX wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:


It seems like a lot of these Cape Air vs Skywest situations are the general population want to keep a STL link but businesses what Chicago.


I wonder if on paper an ORD connection sounds rough to the general traveling public vs. the much quieter STL- even if in the end ORD would probably be more beneficial for massively increased connection opportunities to all passengers.

It is a shame we have pivoted away from regional turboprops in the US. MWA/CGI/PAH are perfectly within the scope of an efficient 30 seater tied to a major carrier making sense. The 'EAS prop fleet' isn't quit enough airplane while the CRJ/ERJ might be a bit too much.


Would it be beyond a possibility for some EAS carrier to add ATRs to their fleet? Not sure if there is a limitation on plane size?


No limitation on size, just lose your competitive edge on bids pretty quickly. Seems like the 9-seaters are right in the sweet spot for making it work.
 
Jshank83
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon May 24, 2021 8:09 pm

NK extended their schedule into February.

Everything looks to be year round, even PNS (which surprises me).

PNS moves to 4x weekly in mid Nov. Everything else stays daily.

Fingers crosses we get some new route announcements on the first day of service.
 
PhilMcCrackin
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon May 24, 2021 10:29 pm

TWA302 wrote:
PhilMcCrackin wrote:
Lilj4425 wrote:
How in the world do both Charlotte and Raleigh have non-stop direct service to London but neither St. Louis or Kansas City do? Makes no sense. There is a huge hole over the middle part of the country when it comes to that service:

Image


Charlotte was a big US hub prior to the merger and still is a decent sized hub. Raleigh was started because of a revenue guarantee provided by GSK and several other pharma companies in the Research Triangle area. Not sure what it's operated by now, but it was a 77E for years when that was the only thing AA flew to LHR.


2017 AA went from the 767 to 777 at RDU.


It's changed several times, it was the 777 before it went to the 767 as that was when AA only sent the 777 to LGW/LHR in the 2005ish to 2007ish timeframe.

https://americanairlines.gcs-web.com/ne ... its-london
Last edited by PhilMcCrackin on Mon May 24, 2021 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Jshank83
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon May 24, 2021 10:29 pm

Another random thing I found.

Apparently they are going to narrow one of the runways. It is 200 across and the rest are 150. Seems random but maybe it saves on costs to maintain?

Engineering review design, environmental, construction and electronics support and flight check to facilitate narrowing runway 12R/30L at St. Louis Lambert International Airport between the Federal Aviation Administrator Reimbursable Receipts Team, the City of St. Louis Lambert International Airport by and through its Board of Public Service.
 
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stl07
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue May 25, 2021 12:02 am

Jshank83 wrote:
Fingers crosses we get some new route announcements on the first day of service.

Are you expecting we do?

Also I'm just as surprised about PNS. Winter there is not the greatest
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Jshank83
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue May 25, 2021 1:25 am

stl07 wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
Fingers crosses we get some new route announcements on the first day of service.

Are you expecting we do?

Also I'm just as surprised about PNS. Winter there is not the greatest


I don’t expect it. But with the schedule extension today timing for new routes is probably in the near future. I think doing it on the day of the first flight would be advantageous.
 
dcaproducer
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue May 25, 2021 1:39 am

Jshank83 wrote:
Another random thing I found.

Apparently they are going to narrow one of the runways. It is 200 across and the rest are 150. Seems random but maybe it saves on costs to maintain?

Engineering review design, environmental, construction and electronics support and flight check to facilitate narrowing runway 12R/30L at St. Louis Lambert International Airport between the Federal Aviation Administrator Reimbursable Receipts Team, the City of St. Louis Lambert International Airport by and through its Board of Public Service.


That is an interesting thing to change. I was curious, so I looked it up. 200’ is needed for the A380, but pretty much every other aircraft is good with 150’.
Also, looking at some major airports, for example LAX, they only have one runway that’s 200’.

Aircraft Design Groups

Group III - A318/319/320/321 727 737 DC9 Concorde TU134/144 DHC-7 DHC-8 BAE-146
Group IV - A300/A310 757 767 L1011 DC8 DC10 MD11 TU-154 IL-86
Group V - A330 A340 747 777 AN-22 B52
Group VI - AN-124 A380 C-5

Minimum Runway Width (Per FAA)

100ft - Group III aircraft
150ft - Group IV and V aircraft
200ft - Group VI aircraft
 
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stl07
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue May 25, 2021 2:25 am

dcaproducer wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
Another random thing I found.

Apparently they are going to narrow one of the runways. It is 200 across and the rest are 150. Seems random but maybe it saves on costs to maintain?

Engineering review design, environmental, construction and electronics support and flight check to facilitate narrowing runway 12R/30L at St. Louis Lambert International Airport between the Federal Aviation Administrator Reimbursable Receipts Team, the City of St. Louis Lambert International Airport by and through its Board of Public Service.


That is an interesting thing to change. I was curious, so I looked it up. 200’ is needed for the A380, but pretty much every other aircraft is good with 150’.
Also, looking at some major airports, for example LAX, they only have one runway that’s 200’.

Aircraft Design Groups

Group III - A318/319/320/321 727 737 DC9 Concorde TU134/144 DHC-7 DHC-8 BAE-146
Group IV - A300/A310 757 767 L1011 DC8 DC10 MD11 TU-154 IL-86
Group V - A330 A340 747 777 AN-22 B52
Group VI - AN-124 A380 C-5

Minimum Runway Width (Per FAA)
`
100ft - Group III aircraft
150ft - Group IV and V aircraft
200ft - Group VI aircraft

I think that with the a380 being phased out, the airport realized that it is wholly irrelevant to have an a380 runway. Good find!
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DaCubbyBearBar
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue May 25, 2021 3:25 am

Jshank83 wrote:
pmanni1 wrote:
Interesting to note that in June WN moves most of the afternoon west coast bank to mornings. SEA,PDX,SMF,LGB,LAX,SNA are all mornings while OAK,SJC & SAN (and 2nd LAX) are all moved to late afternoon.


I am personally happy the OAK is pushed back so now I can get in a mostly full day of work. I guess they wanted those early ones in the first connecting bank. Guessing many will be thrus from the east coast. Can get them to Cali earlier than the midday bank.

BOS-STL-LGB
BWI-STL-SMF
TPA-STL-SEA

2 of 3 are Hawai’i gateways, so could they have been moved up for connections?
I am me and no one else...so my opinions are mine
 
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TWA302
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue May 25, 2021 1:04 pm

dcaproducer wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
Another random thing I found.

Apparently they are going to narrow one of the runways. It is 200 across and the rest are 150. Seems random but maybe it saves on costs to maintain?

Engineering review design, environmental, construction and electronics support and flight check to facilitate narrowing runway 12R/30L at St. Louis Lambert International Airport between the Federal Aviation Administrator Reimbursable Receipts Team, the City of St. Louis Lambert International Airport by and through its Board of Public Service.


That is an interesting thing to change. I was curious, so I looked it up. 200’ is needed for the A380, but pretty much every other aircraft is good with 150’.
Also, looking at some major airports, for example LAX, they only have one runway that’s 200’.

Aircraft Design Groups

Group III - A318/319/320/321 727 737 DC9 Concorde TU134/144 DHC-7 DHC-8 BAE-146
Group IV - A300/A310 757 767 L1011 DC8 DC10 MD11 TU-154 IL-86
Group V - A330 A340 747 777 AN-22 B52
Group VI - AN-124 A380 C-5

Minimum Runway Width (Per FAA)

100ft - Group III aircraft
150ft - Group IV and V aircraft
200ft - Group VI aircraft



I guess that is the end for our visits from the 124 and the C-5 in the future.
Image
 
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TVNWZ
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue May 25, 2021 1:58 pm

TWA302 wrote:
QXorVX wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:


It seems like a lot of these Cape Air vs Skywest situations are the general population want to keep a STL link but businesses what Chicago.


I wonder if on paper an ORD connection sounds rough to the general traveling public vs. the much quieter STL- even if in the end ORD would probably be more beneficial for massively increased connection opportunities to all passengers.

It is a shame we have pivoted away from regional turboprops in the US. MWA/CGI/PAH are perfectly within the scope of an efficient 30 seater tied to a major carrier making sense. The 'EAS prop fleet' isn't quit enough airplane while the CRJ/ERJ might be a bit too much.


Would it be beyond a possibility for some EAS carrier to add ATRs to their fleet? Not sure if there is a limitation on plane size?


If you can fill an ATR…you don’t need EAS
 
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TWA302
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue May 25, 2021 3:02 pm

TVNWZ wrote:
TWA302 wrote:
QXorVX wrote:

I wonder if on paper an ORD connection sounds rough to the general traveling public vs. the much quieter STL- even if in the end ORD would probably be more beneficial for massively increased connection opportunities to all passengers.

It is a shame we have pivoted away from regional turboprops in the US. MWA/CGI/PAH are perfectly within the scope of an efficient 30 seater tied to a major carrier making sense. The 'EAS prop fleet' isn't quit enough airplane while the CRJ/ERJ might be a bit too much.


Would it be beyond a possibility for some EAS carrier to add ATRs to their fleet? Not sure if there is a limitation on plane size?


If you can fill an ATR…you don’t need EAS


Wasn't saying fill an ATR. I was talking about a plane with more range than a normal EAS fleet but not an RJ. Pretty sure OO isn't packing their RJ flights.
 
dcaproducer
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue May 25, 2021 3:23 pm

TWA302 wrote:
dcaproducer wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
Another random thing I found.

Apparently they are going to narrow one of the runways. It is 200 across and the rest are 150. Seems random but maybe it saves on costs to maintain?

Engineering review design, environmental, construction and electronics support and flight check to facilitate narrowing runway 12R/30L at St. Louis Lambert International Airport between the Federal Aviation Administrator Reimbursable Receipts Team, the City of St. Louis Lambert International Airport by and through its Board of Public Service.


That is an interesting thing to change. I was curious, so I looked it up. 200’ is needed for the A380, but pretty much every other aircraft is good with 150’.
Also, looking at some major airports, for example LAX, they only have one runway that’s 200’.

Aircraft Design Groups

Group III - A318/319/320/321 727 737 DC9 Concorde TU134/144 DHC-7 DHC-8 BAE-146
Group IV - A300/A310 757 767 L1011 DC8 DC10 MD11 TU-154 IL-86
Group V - A330 A340 747 777 AN-22 B52
Group VI - AN-124 A380 C-5

Minimum Runway Width (Per FAA)

100ft - Group III aircraft
150ft - Group IV and V aircraft
200ft - Group VI aircraft



I guess that is the end for our visits from the 124 and the C-5 in the future.
Image


Yeah, I'm curious if the Antonov goes into smaller airports... I was a bit surprised when I looked at LAX and only 7R/25L is 200'.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angel ... iagram.png
 
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jbpdx
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue May 25, 2021 3:44 pm

PDX runways are 150’ and handle AN-124.
^PDX’s one-hit wonders: NK, SY, F9
 
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TWA302
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue May 25, 2021 5:10 pm

jbpdx wrote:
PDX runways are 150’ and handle AN-124.


I guess I just assumed the runway had to be a certain width based on the info. Appears that is not the case as BLV as 150' runways and can handle them both.
 
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TWA302
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue May 25, 2021 5:18 pm

I was looking at WN1995 on 5/21. Apparently blew tires on departure from 12L and they had to get a different plane. Looking at the flight path, it is super odd. Does anyone know why this route was flown? The same plane then went to DEN on a strange route
5/21 STL-CUN flight - https://flightaware.com/live/flight/SWA1995/history/20210521/1600Z/KSTL/MMUN
5/21 DEN-CUN flight - https://flightaware.com/live/flight/SWA1018/history/20210521/2005Z/MMUN/KDEN

This same plane has done CUN-DEN before with the normal route
 
Jshank83
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue May 25, 2021 5:43 pm

TWA302 wrote:
I was looking at WN1995 on 5/21. Apparently blew tires on departure from 12L and they had to get a different plane. Looking at the flight path, it is super odd. Does anyone know why this route was flown? The same plane then went to DEN on a strange route
5/21 STL-CUN flight - https://flightaware.com/live/flight/SWA1995/history/20210521/1600Z/KSTL/MMUN
5/21 DEN-CUN flight - https://flightaware.com/live/flight/SWA1018/history/20210521/2005Z/MMUN/KDEN

This same plane has done CUN-DEN before with the normal route


I saw that and figured they didn't have the right rating to fly directly over the gulf. Had to stay so close to land. Same and the Denver flight didn't take a direct route.

But I also don't know if that is a thing.
Last edited by Jshank83 on Tue May 25, 2021 5:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
reednavy
Posts: 97
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue May 25, 2021 5:43 pm

TWA302 wrote:
I was looking at WN1995 on 5/21. Apparently blew tires on departure from 12L and they had to get a different plane. Looking at the flight path, it is super odd. Does anyone know why this route was flown? The same plane then went to DEN on a strange route
5/21 STL-CUN flight - https://flightaware.com/live/flight/SWA1995/history/20210521/1600Z/KSTL/MMUN
5/21 DEN-CUN flight - https://flightaware.com/live/flight/SWA1018/history/20210521/2005Z/MMUN/KDEN

This same plane has done CUN-DEN before with the normal route

My best guess is there was a large area of convection over the central GOMEX that resulted in swinging paths to the east or west versus entering/exiting the US over Louisiana.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue May 25, 2021 7:15 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
TWA302 wrote:
I was looking at WN1995 on 5/21. Apparently blew tires on departure from 12L and they had to get a different plane. Looking at the flight path, it is super odd. Does anyone know why this route was flown? The same plane then went to DEN on a strange route
5/21 STL-CUN flight - https://flightaware.com/live/flight/SWA1995/history/20210521/1600Z/KSTL/MMUN
5/21 DEN-CUN flight - https://flightaware.com/live/flight/SWA1018/history/20210521/2005Z/MMUN/KDEN

This same plane has done CUN-DEN before with the normal route


I saw that and figured they didn't have the right rating to fly directly over the gulf. Had to stay so close to land. Same and the Denver flight didn't take a direct route.

But I also don't know if that is a thing.


You need rafts for a more or less direct routing STL-CUN (it's in the vicinity of 550 nm over water). It looks like Ship 558 operated the flight, and I don't believe any of the 500 series -700s have rafts.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Jshank83
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue May 25, 2021 8:36 pm

Just noticed you can now book STL-BOS thru Jetblues website. You can book the AA nonstop flight or Cape Air thru ORD/BNA-BOS (would have the cape air stop also).
 
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TWA302
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue May 25, 2021 9:05 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
Just noticed you can now book STL-BOS thru Jetblues website. You can book the AA nonstop flight or Cape Air thru ORD/BNA-BOS (would have the cape air stop also).


I just looked and I get:

No flights found this month.
Flights may be sold out, operate seasonally, or begin service at a later time.

First month it shows is November is that when AA starts?
 
Jshank83
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue May 25, 2021 9:19 pm

TWA302 wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
Just noticed you can now book STL-BOS thru Jetblues website. You can book the AA nonstop flight or Cape Air thru ORD/BNA-BOS (would have the cape air stop also).


I just looked and I get:

No flights found this month.
Flights may be sold out, operate seasonally, or begin service at a later time.

First month it shows is November is that when AA starts?


Yes
 
atrude777
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue May 25, 2021 10:44 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
Just noticed you can now book STL-BOS thru Jetblues website. You can book the AA nonstop flight or Cape Air thru ORD/BNA-BOS (would have the cape air stop also).


:lol: :lol: :lol:

The poor soul who books STL-UIN-ORD or STL-MWA-BNA on Cape Air Portion...

"What part of Illinois is this?!?!"

Ironically though...my Aunt flew BNA-MWA on Cape Air and she mentioned a passenger was flying all the way to STL. They hadn't heard of Southwest?!

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
QXorVX
Posts: 76
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue May 25, 2021 11:17 pm

atrude777 wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
Just noticed you can now book STL-BOS thru Jetblues website. You can book the AA nonstop flight or Cape Air thru ORD/BNA-BOS (would have the cape air stop also).


:lol: :lol: :lol:

The poor soul who books STL-UIN-ORD or STL-MWA-BNA on Cape Air Portion...

"What part of Illinois is this?!?!"

Ironically though...my Aunt flew BNA-MWA on Cape Air and she mentioned a passenger was flying all the way to STL. They hadn't heard of Southwest?!

Alex


Cape Air's close-in fares are pretty cheap compared to Southwest. Anecdotally, I flew STL-OWB-BNA for fun. Another person on the plane was on the same 1-stop because that is how he was booked by his employer. Bit of a shocker walking out on to the ramp! It must happen from time to time, no one in OWB made it seem out of the ordinary we were connecting through.
 
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TVNWZ
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue May 25, 2021 11:37 pm

QXorVX wrote:
atrude777 wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
Just noticed you can now book STL-BOS thru Jetblues website. You can book the AA nonstop flight or Cape Air thru ORD/BNA-BOS (would have the cape air stop also).


:lol: :lol: :lol:

The poor soul who books STL-UIN-ORD or STL-MWA-BNA on Cape Air Portion...

"What part of Illinois is this?!?!"

Ironically though...my Aunt flew BNA-MWA on Cape Air and she mentioned a passenger was flying all the way to STL. They hadn't heard of Southwest?!

Alex


Cape Air's close-in fares are pretty cheap compared to Southwest. Anecdotally, I flew STL-OWB-BNA for fun. Another person on the plane was on the same 1-stop because that is how he was booked by his employer. Bit of a shocker walking out on to the ramp! It must happen from time to time, no one in OWB made it seem out of the ordinary we were connecting through.


Hold my beer. Back in the day I flew MDH-PDH-MEM on UX and return. It was a slow flight on a Twin Otter. An experience when I was young that still resonates today.
 
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stl07
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed May 26, 2021 5:09 am

Jshank83 wrote:
NK extended their schedule into February.

Everything looks to be year round, even PNS (which surprises me).

PNS moves to 4x weekly in mid Nov. Everything else stays daily.

Fingers crosses we get some new route announcements on the first day of service.

Just realized that UA SC routes start of the 27th as well! It's gonna be a big day for STL
Instead of typing in "mods", consider using the report function.
Love how every "travel blogger" says they will never fly AA/Ethihad again and then says it again and again on subsequent flights.
 
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KLMatSJC
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed May 26, 2021 11:12 am

TWA302 wrote:
I guess that is the end for our visits from the 124 and the C-5 in the future.
Image


Is that your picture? I actually work on the device that they are loading in the 124. My coworkers always said they've used an Antonov (while mixing up the 124 and 225), but I've never seen any picture. I'm blown away
A318/19/20/21/21N A332/3 A343/5 A388 B712 B722 B732/3/4/7/8/9/9ER B744/4M B752/3 B762ER/3/3ER/4ER B772/E/L/W B788 CRJ2/7/9 Q400 EMB-120 ERJ-135/140/145/145XR/175 DC-10-10 MD-82/83/88/90

Long Live the Tulip, Cactus, and Redwood
 
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TWA302
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed May 26, 2021 11:39 am

KLMatSJC wrote:
TWA302 wrote:
I guess that is the end for our visits from the 124 and the C-5 in the future.
Image


Is that your picture? I actually work on the device that they are loading in the 124. My coworkers always said they've used an Antonov (while mixing up the 124 and 225), but I've never seen any picture. I'm blown away


No. Just found it this site https://www.heavyliftpfi.com/sectors/lambert-st-louis-welcomes-an-124/7105.article
 
maps4ltd
Posts: 923
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed May 26, 2021 5:49 pm

Anyone know why Southwest is waiting to resume some nonstops (DTW, CMH, etc.) until August? Are they really bad performers? Can't be worse than LIT.
All opinions expressed herein are mine and do not represent the views of Cape Air
 
Jshank83
Posts: 4314
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed May 26, 2021 6:24 pm

maps4ltd wrote:
Anyone know why Southwest is waiting to resume some nonstops (DTW, CMH, etc.) until August? Are they really bad performers? Can't be worse than LIT.


LIT is a spoke. All the true spokes never left. Most of the ones not added back I would guess need more business traffic to work. I was a little surprised CMH wasn’t added back in when CLE/PIT were.
 
jplatts
Posts: 4527
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed May 26, 2021 7:18 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
maps4ltd wrote:
Anyone know why Southwest is waiting to resume some nonstops (DTW, CMH, etc.) until August? Are they really bad performers? Can't be worse than LIT.


LIT is a spoke. All the true spokes never left. Most of the ones not added back I would guess need more business traffic to work. I was a little surprised CMH wasn’t added back in when CLE/PIT were.


WN has suspended STL-CMH/DTW/BDL/IND/MSP/SFO through at least 9/7/2021.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 4314
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed May 26, 2021 7:56 pm

jplatts wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
maps4ltd wrote:
Anyone know why Southwest is waiting to resume some nonstops (DTW, CMH, etc.) until August? Are they really bad performers? Can't be worse than LIT.


LIT is a spoke. All the true spokes never left. Most of the ones not added back I would guess need more business traffic to work. I was a little surprised CMH wasn’t added back in when CLE/PIT were.


WN has suspended STL-CMH/DTW/BDL/IND/MSP/SFO through at least 9/7/2021.


That's what he said already. He was asking why.

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