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TWA302
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon Apr 05, 2021 1:33 pm

pmanni1 wrote:
Strange that someone added ORD as a new destination for WN on STL's wikipedia page.


Yeah says 'Starts June 4" which is not on the schedule. The person that "manages" that page really has done it a disservice. It just to be really well done.
 
dcaproducer
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:10 pm

Trololzilla wrote:
LambertMan wrote:
The smell back in that area of the terminal hasn't left, either - smells like you are boarding a TWA MD80.

Like stale coffee and grease?


Wasn't there also a smoking lounge near the end of C that you'd sometimes get a whiff of as well?
 
Jshank83
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:34 pm

dcaproducer wrote:
Trololzilla wrote:
LambertMan wrote:
The smell back in that area of the terminal hasn't left, either - smells like you are boarding a TWA MD80.

Like stale coffee and grease?


Wasn't there also a smoking lounge near the end of C that you'd sometimes get a whiff of as well?


I think there still might be an old one by C28 (not usable obviously). I can't remember though.
 
LambertMan
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:30 am

Trololzilla wrote:
LambertMan wrote:
The smell back in that area of the terminal hasn't left, either - smells like you are boarding a TWA MD80.

Like stale coffee and grease?

Yes - 100%. Cant put my finger on it but definitely a familiar stench. Almost brutally pleasant to the senses.

To the other poster, yes, there's a smoking lounge at C28. I think right near where the old customs facility empties out.
 
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TWA302
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:06 am

LambertMan wrote:
Trololzilla wrote:
LambertMan wrote:
The smell back in that area of the terminal hasn't left, either - smells like you are boarding a TWA MD80.

Like stale coffee and grease?

Yes - 100%. Cant put my finger on it but definitely a familiar stench. Almost brutally pleasant to the senses.

To the other poster, yes, there's a smoking lounge at C28. I think right near where the old customs facility empties out.


I find it crazy that the smoking lounges cost nearly 500K to install at STL back in 1997. I used to smoke a long time ago and would NEVER enter one of those things.
 
Jshank83
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:52 am

I went thru and found the current restart dates of routes that are currently suspended (or not started yet). I didn't include normal year seasonal suspensions.

Anything in June is subject to change. April/May should be pretty firm

AA
LAX - May 6

DL
CVG - Cut Permanently

UA
HHH - May 27 (NEW)
MYR - May 28 (NEW)
SFO - June 3

WN
SJC- suspended April 12- May 8
MIA (NEW)/SEA/OAK - May 9
CLE/CMH/DTW/BDL/IND/MSP/MYR (NEW)/PHL/PIT/PDX/SFO - June 6
CHS - June 12
PBI/PUJ - No date. I assume won't be back until 2022

NK
FLL/LAX/LAS - May 27
MCO - May 28
PNS - June 10

AC
YYZ - Sept 7 (but this will be pushed probably to 2022)

Boutique
MKL - June 1 (Takeover from Air Choice One)

G4
CHS - May 28 (NEW)

SY
PDX - no date (maybe 2022?)
 
Jshank83
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:00 pm

A booth to process Real IDs is going to be set up at the airport. Smart move on whoever thought of that.

https://www.flystl.com/uploads/document ... Agenda.pdf
 
Jshank83
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:45 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
A booth to process Real IDs is going to be set up at the airport. Smart move on whoever thought of that.

https://www.flystl.com/uploads/document ... Agenda.pdf



March passengers were around 30% down compared to 2019. That’s a pretty good bump compared to previous months.

All parking lots will be reopened by May.
Another 350 spot lot is in planning for T2.

T2 baggage expansion still has no start date.

Depending on how the new United routes go they may be replaced in fall/winter with other routes.
 
AC4500
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:30 pm

Jshank83 wrote:

SY
PDX - no date (maybe 2022?)

SY is done with their non-MSP routes at PDX for good. If anything, AS resumes this route in 2022.
 
Ishrion
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:03 pm

 
stlgph
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:15 pm

Wow. now *THAT* is an add!

I fully expected Southwest to add this at some point --- and well, still do.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
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TWA302
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:30 pm

Ishrion wrote:


STL-ORD Departure Times

Sa 8:45pm :?
Mo 8:25am
We 8:45pm

Not seeing what day has a 2x. Release says 4x weekly but maybe it is on the ORD-STL leg which I didn't check.
 
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TVNWZ
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:33 pm

Ishrion wrote:


Dartboard scheduling.
 
Jshank83
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:55 pm

TWA302 wrote:
Ishrion wrote:


STL-ORD Departure Times

Sa 8:45pm :?
Mo 8:25am
We 8:45pm

Not seeing what day has a 2x. Release says 4x weekly but maybe it is on the ORD-STL leg which I didn't check.


Monday/Fri are the same on A321
Wed/sat are the same on A320

Mon/Fri ORD-STL 1050 am A321
Wed/Sat ORD-STL 700 am 320

I would guess we will see WN and maybe NK add ORD soon also. F9 will then give up per usual.
Last edited by Jshank83 on Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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TWA302
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:56 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
TWA302 wrote:
Ishrion wrote:


STL-ORD Departure Times

Sa 8:45pm :?
Mo 8:25am
We 8:45pm

Not seeing what day has a 2x. Release says 4x weekly but maybe it is on the ORD-STL leg which I didn't check.


Monday/Fri are the same on A321
Wed/sat are the same on A320

I would guess we will see WN and maybe NK add ORD soon also.


Gotcha!

F9 presser said Mon-Wed-Sat but 4x weekly. Friday makes sense. Was wondering where the 4th was.
 
Jshank83
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:58 pm

TWA302 wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
TWA302 wrote:

STL-ORD Departure Times

Sa 8:45pm :?
Mo 8:25am
We 8:45pm

Not seeing what day has a 2x. Release says 4x weekly but maybe it is on the ORD-STL leg which I didn't check.


Monday/Fri are the same on A321
Wed/sat are the same on A320

I would guess we will see WN and maybe NK add ORD soon also.


Gotcha!

F9 presser said Mon-Wed-Sat but 4x weekly. Friday makes sense. Was wondering where the 4th was.


I think the days they listed are the days they are on sale for cheap. Friday isn't on sale for cheap. Took me a second to figure it out.
 
atrude777
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:07 pm

TWA302 wrote:
Ishrion wrote:


STL-ORD Departure Times

Sa 8:45pm :?
Mo 8:25am
We 8:45pm

Not seeing what day has a 2x. Release says 4x weekly but maybe it is on the ORD-STL leg which I didn't check.


Not gonna lie, those times are perfect for me. I don't think F9 is going for connections in Chicago.

On the weekends when I fly home to Chicago, I want the last and latest flight possible. 8:45pm is perfect! It connects easily from the 5:15 pm MWA-STL Cape Air departure too!

During the week, the morning 8:25am departure, connects easily with the 6am MWA-STL Cape Air departure.

For me, the schedule is perfect!

Excited for more airline options STL-Chicago! I am on AA in 3 weeks because they had the last departure, 7:11pm which connected easily from Cape Air!

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
phatfarmlines
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:47 pm

From an outsider, watching the progress of the facilities at STL belonging to the former TW/AA hub is impressive, though there is still ways to go. On Google Maps, I am noticing the apron footprints of the gates are wider (likely since there are no more mass-operating MD-80s), so is this how STL is able to open more gates back?

Also, if NK decides to open STL-Mexico/Caribbean flying, will the former customs/immigration facility at Concourse C open back up?
 
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stl07
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:58 pm

Something of note here is that megabus suspended Chicago-STL bus service, which is what budget travelers previously used until COVID hit and ruined everthing
Instead of typing in "mods", consider using the report function.
Love how every "travel blogger" says they will never fly AA/Ethihad again and then says it again and again on subsequent flights.
 
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TWA302
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:13 pm

phatfarmlines wrote:
From an outsider, watching the progress of the facilities at STL belonging to the former TW/AA hub is impressive, though there is still ways to go. On Google Maps, I am noticing the apron footprints of the gates are wider (likely since there are no more mass-operating MD-80s), so is this how STL is able to open more gates back?

Also, if NK decides to open STL-Mexico/Caribbean flying, will the former customs/immigration facility at Concourse C open back up?


On C, many of those old jet ramps have been removed. I think there are 12 jet bridges now. There used to be 27 or so
Image
 
Jshank83
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:15 pm

phatfarmlines wrote:
From an outsider, watching the progress of the facilities at STL belonging to the former TW/AA hub is impressive, though there is still ways to go. On Google Maps, I am noticing the apron footprints of the gates are wider (likely since there are no more mass-operating MD-80s), so is this how STL is able to open more gates back?

Also, if NK decides to open STL-Mexico/Caribbean flying, will the former customs/immigration facility at Concourse C open back up?


They are talking about moving customs but I don’t think anything is imminent. They put out an RFP for it a year or so ago. For now if they started they would go into E for arrivals and just tow over to C for departures like F9 does. Short tow at least. They will only have one customs facility no matter what they do, so if they make a new one then the one on T2 would be shut down.
 
Runway765
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:30 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
They are talking about moving customs but I don’t think anything is imminent. They put out an RFP for it a year or so ago. For now if they started they would go into E for arrivals and just tow over to C for departures like F9 does. Short tow at least. They will only have one customs facility no matter what they do, so if they make a new one then the one on T2 would be shut down.


How many customs facilities were there in the height of the TWA hub?

Speaking of moving and progress, will we ever see a massive terminal revamp at STL like PIT and MCI are doing?
 
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TWA302
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:50 pm

Runway765 wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
They are talking about moving customs but I don’t think anything is imminent. They put out an RFP for it a year or so ago. For now if they started they would go into E for arrivals and just tow over to C for departures like F9 does. Short tow at least. They will only have one customs facility no matter what they do, so if they make a new one then the one on T2 would be shut down.


How many customs facilities were there in the height of the TWA hub?

Speaking of moving and progress, will we ever see a massive terminal revamp at STL like PIT and MCI are doing?


Only one was C until the other one in D/E was built
Image

They have done a ton of work on the inside of A ad C (C because of the Good Friday tornado) and there are talks about two new layouts

1)
Image

2)
Image

or 3) keep the same
Image
Last edited by TWA302 on Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Jshank83
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:52 pm

Runway765 wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
They are talking about moving customs but I don’t think anything is imminent. They put out an RFP for it a year or so ago. For now if they started they would go into E for arrivals and just tow over to C for departures like F9 does. Short tow at least. They will only have one customs facility no matter what they do, so if they make a new one then the one on T2 would be shut down.


How many customs facilities were there in the height of the TWA hub?

Speaking of moving and progress, will we ever see a massive terminal revamp at STL like PIT and MCI are doing?


They are going thru an airport layout plan now. We will see what happens when it is over.

phatfarmlines wrote:
From an outsider, watching the progress of the facilities at STL belonging to the former TW/AA hub is impressive, though there is still ways to go. On Google Maps, I am noticing the apron footprints of the gates are wider (likely since there are no more mass-operating MD-80s), so is this how STL is able to open more gates back?


Here is a gate diagram. It is old but shows what is there.
C1-7 are apron boarding. C9/17/21/25 are all blocked by bigger gates. Missing numbers are no longer options. I would guess a few more C gates near the end would be blocked out also if they opened up.
A12 basically isn't usable. A5/7 are blocked by retail.

https://www.flystl.com/uploads/document ... n-2018.pdf
 
STLflyer
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:16 pm

Where does the C Concourse customs checkpoint exit to? I can't imagine how something that far down the concourse can have a landside exit like CBP facilities do. Unless there's a really long hall under the concourse?
 
Runway765
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:25 pm

TWA302 wrote:
Runway765 wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
They are talking about moving customs but I don’t think anything is imminent. They put out an RFP for it a year or so ago. For now if they started they would go into E for arrivals and just tow over to C for departures like F9 does. Short tow at least. They will only have one customs facility no matter what they do, so if they make a new one then the one on T2 would be shut down.


How many customs facilities were there in the height of the TWA hub?

Speaking of moving and progress, will we ever see a massive terminal revamp at STL like PIT and MCI are doing?


Only one was C until the other one in D/E was built
Image

They have done a ton of work on the inside of A ad C (C because of the Good Friday tornado) and there are talks about two new layouts

1)
Image

2)
Image

or 3) keep the same
Image


Of those proposals, option 1 the best IMO. It's big and bold, provides a completely modern facility and most importantly, consolidates all the airlines into a single terminal (badly needed at STL). It also repurposes the iconic Terminal 1. When are they going to make a decision?

The only thing is construction would disrupt WN operations in Terminal 2 by requiring a few gates on the old D to close.
 
Jshank83
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:55 pm

STLflyer wrote:
Where does the C Concourse customs checkpoint exit to? I can't imagine how something that far down the concourse can have a landside exit like CBP facilities do. Unless there's a really long hall under the concourse?


It emptied back into the concourse. I think that is one reasons it moved.
 
STLflyer
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:41 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
STLflyer wrote:
Where does the C Concourse customs checkpoint exit to? I can't imagine how something that far down the concourse can have a landside exit like CBP facilities do. Unless there's a really long hall under the concourse?


It emptied back into the concourse. I think that is one reasons it moved.


Holy crap, so if you were ending your trip in STL, you had to re-check your bag, re-clear security only to leave airside and then go re-collect your bags from the domestic bag claims?

I can see why that moved.
 
Runway765
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:16 pm

STLflyer wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
STLflyer wrote:
Where does the C Concourse customs checkpoint exit to? I can't imagine how something that far down the concourse can have a landside exit like CBP facilities do. Unless there's a really long hall under the concourse?


It emptied back into the concourse. I think that is one reasons it moved.


Holy crap, so if you were ending your trip in STL, you had to re-check your bag, re-clear security only to leave airside and then go re-collect your bags from the domestic bag claims?

I can see why that moved.


I believe that was pretty common in these mid-sized market hubs back in the day. Since they figured most passengers were simply connecting onto another flight, they didn't need a sterile corridor to the landslide terminal. CVG, PIT, MEM and BNA all had similar setups IIRC.
 
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OzarkD9S
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:27 pm

Runway765 wrote:

I believe that was pretty common in these mid-sized market hubs back in the day. Since they figured most passengers were simply connecting onto another flight, they didn't need a sterile corridor to the landslide terminal. CVG, PIT, MEM and BNA all had similar setups IIRC.


Indeed. Flew LGW-STL in 1992 or so and they vomited us out way past the elbow on outer C. It was a bit of a hoof as STL was my destination, but really not that bad. Fun fact: I was "stopped" at customs because I fit the description of a jewel smuggler wanted by INTERPOL. It took about 10 minutes to sort out.
"My soul is in the sky". -Pyramus- A Midsummer's Night Dream
 
Trololzilla
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:30 pm

Runway765 wrote:
Of those proposals, option 1 the best IMO. It's big and bold, provides a completely modern facility and most importantly, consolidates all the airlines into a single terminal (badly needed at STL). It also repurposes the iconic Terminal 1. When are they going to make a decision?

The only thing is construction would disrupt WN operations in Terminal 2 by requiring a few gates on the old D to close.

Definitely the most optimal solution, though I don't know how much WN would like having to consolidate since they currently have their own terminal.
 
dcaproducer
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:58 pm

I seem to recall two customs operating at one point. In fact, looking at this old terminal map, it shows two customs facilities.
http://www.departedflights.com/STL89.html

In relation to a new terminal, the airport has worked hard to get the passenger costs down. I think one asset the airport has is space. Get airlines to fill it, get the passenger numbers back around 20million and then you’ll see a real plan come together to replace the concourses. Just my two cents. One of the things WN loves is all of the space for expand.
 
jplatts
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Apr 09, 2021 12:40 am

TWA302 wrote:
or 3) keep the same
Image


While 132 daily departures could be accommodated out of 12 gates at STL if none of the gates were used for international flights, WN would likely need more than 12 gates at STL due to
(a) the connections that WN is offering through STL, including onto STL-DSM/LIT/MKE/LGA/TUL/DCA/ICT and other WN flights out of STL,
(b) WN currently operating nonstop international service to CUN and MBJ out of STL, and
(c) WN likely needing more gates if it adds extra nonstop routes out of STL.
 
Jshank83
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Apr 09, 2021 12:55 am

I think option 1 makes the most sense. You can move the airlines in A to C/D while you build from now B thru A. Then move everyone in C into the new gates while you build out the rest.

Another option I like is finding a way to make B an international concourse. Might be a tight fit though. It find a way to build out the C/D elbow into it.

I think we are to the point we need to just bite the bullet and do a rebuild though.
 
Runway765
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Apr 09, 2021 4:12 am

Jshank83 wrote:
I think option 1 makes the most sense. You can move the airlines in A to C/D while you build from now B thru A. Then move everyone in C into the new gates while you build out the rest.

Another option I like is finding a way to make B an international concourse. Might be a tight fit though. It find a way to build out the C/D elbow into it.

I think we are to the point we need to just bite the bullet and do a rebuild though.


Yes. Bottom line is, virtually every midsized airport in the category STL is in has or is in the process of revamping their terminal facility. Even smaller airports like MEM are consolidating into a single concourse. STL is also the only former hub that hasn’t really downsized its facilities. They have way more space then they need.

You don’t want a situation where WN moves some STL flights to say, MCI because of their forthcoming modern terminal. It’s past time for STL to get going on a terminal consolidation/revamp. A new single terminal with 45-50 gates, half for WN, half for everyone else, will suffice.
 
dcaproducer
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Apr 09, 2021 12:44 pm

Runway765 wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
I think option 1 makes the most sense. You can move the airlines in A to C/D while you build from now B thru A. Then move everyone in C into the new gates while you build out the rest.

Another option I like is finding a way to make B an international concourse. Might be a tight fit though. It find a way to build out the C/D elbow into it.

I think we are to the point we need to just bite the bullet and do a rebuild though.


Yes. Bottom line is, virtually every midsized airport in the category STL is in has or is in the process of revamping their terminal facility. Even smaller airports like MEM are consolidating into a single concourse. STL is also the only former hub that hasn’t really downsized its facilities. They have way more space then they need.

You don’t want a situation where WN moves some STL flights to say, MCI because of their forthcoming modern terminal. It’s past time for STL to get going on a terminal consolidation/revamp. A new single terminal with 45-50 gates, half for WN, half for everyone else, will suffice.


Other airports you're referring to aren't still paying for a billion dollar+ runway that was built for TWA. STL decided to invest in renovating T1 and sprucing up A/C, which has worked. WN helped pay for T2 so they aren't going to want to just dump and run. Reading the tea leaves, I'd wager airport leadership would like to fill as many gates as possible in C, get WN to expand a few more gates down D and then realistically justify a new terminal expense. At the end of the day the airlines have to support it, especially WN.

The problem with consolidation in the current facility is no single concourse has enough space. Pre-pandemic, A was full. I know they list available gates, but there isn't really room. B is closed and isn't needed. T2 keeps creeping down D as WN adds service. C doesn't have enough space for everyone.

Don't get me wrong, I agree the single linear concourse makes the most sense. Keep WN in T2, move everyone to C, demolish A/B, build that half and then move everyone from C to the new side. Demolish C and finish the linear concourse. This is similar to what SLC has done/is doing. This would cost $2 billion+

STL is somewhat unique compared to other former mid-continent hubs. While at its peak 30+ million passed through the airport, in 2019 the airport was at 16 million. (and growing)
By comparison, IND under 10-million, MEM under 5-million, CLE 10-million, CVG under 10-million, MCI under under 11-million. STL has been able to attract and grow traffic from its low point during the 2008 recession. It isn't growing at the rate AUS and BNA.
 
Runway765
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:39 pm

dcaproducer wrote:
Runway765 wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
I think option 1 makes the most sense. You can move the airlines in A to C/D while you build from now B thru A. Then move everyone in C into the new gates while you build out the rest.

Another option I like is finding a way to make B an international concourse. Might be a tight fit though. It find a way to build out the C/D elbow into it.

I think we are to the point we need to just bite the bullet and do a rebuild though.


Yes. Bottom line is, virtually every midsized airport in the category STL is in has or is in the process of revamping their terminal facility. Even smaller airports like MEM are consolidating into a single concourse. STL is also the only former hub that hasn’t really downsized its facilities. They have way more space then they need.

You don’t want a situation where WN moves some STL flights to say, MCI because of their forthcoming modern terminal. It’s past time for STL to get going on a terminal consolidation/revamp. A new single terminal with 45-50 gates, half for WN, half for everyone else, will suffice.


Other airports you're referring to aren't still paying for a billion dollar+ runway that was built for TWA. STL decided to invest in renovating T1 and sprucing up A/C, which has worked. WN helped pay for T2 so they aren't going to want to just dump and run. Reading the tea leaves, I'd wager airport leadership would like to fill as many gates as possible in C, get WN to expand a few more gates down D and then realistically justify a new terminal expense. At the end of the day the airlines have to support it, especially WN.

The problem with consolidation in the current facility is no single concourse has enough space. Pre-pandemic, A was full. I know they list available gates, but there isn't really room. B is closed and isn't needed. T2 keeps creeping down D as WN adds service. C doesn't have enough space for everyone.

Don't get me wrong, I agree the single linear concourse makes the most sense. Keep WN in T2, move everyone to C, demolish A/B, build that half and then move everyone from C to the new side. Demolish C and finish the linear concourse. This is similar to what SLC has done/is doing. This would cost $2 billion+

STL is somewhat unique compared to other former mid-continent hubs. While at its peak 30+ million passed through the airport, in 2019 the airport was at 16 million. (and growing)
By comparison, IND under 10-million, MEM under 5-million, CLE 10-million, CVG under 10-million, MCI under under 11-million. STL has been able to attract and grow traffic from its low point during the 2008 recession. It isn't growing at the rate AUS and BNA.


You make valid points, but isn't the runway close to being paid off? Yes, the renovations have been nice, but they are only a temporary band aid. STL in the long term doesn't need two terminals, and D doesn't really have the proper hold room size to handle WN 800s/MAX 8's (yes it can work, but not as well). A modern, single 50 gate concourse along the existing Terminal 1 (along with a corresponding renovation/slight expansion of the head terminal) will serve STL needs for well into the future.

Are there any links to the proposed layout plan Jshank83 was referring to?
 
stlgph
Posts: 11338
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:49 pm

A concourse rebuild is pretty easy and works out existing infrastructure, which saves a lot of time and money.

Think of how the Denver Airport terminal is laid out with its Concourse A.

You start with what is left of B - that becomes your primary point from the main terminal out to a proposed line concourse running from what is now the linear equal of A and C. You can build there, get the structure needed to move Delta from A and the commuter airlines over from C over while you tear out the dog legs in A and C. You can then go down the rest of the structure tearing down and building one step at a time without too much disruption to operations (think of how this is being done at LaGuardia) with what is now C28 probably being the ultimate end of this one singular concourse to the east.

This allows for a full demo of the old D Concourse and allows for a full, better re-think/build-out of Terminal 2.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
Jshank83
Posts: 4164
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:07 pm

Runway765 wrote:
dcaproducer wrote:
Runway765 wrote:

Yes. Bottom line is, virtually every midsized airport in the category STL is in has or is in the process of revamping their terminal facility. Even smaller airports like MEM are consolidating into a single concourse. STL is also the only former hub that hasn’t really downsized its facilities. They have way more space then they need.

You don’t want a situation where WN moves some STL flights to say, MCI because of their forthcoming modern terminal. It’s past time for STL to get going on a terminal consolidation/revamp. A new single terminal with 45-50 gates, half for WN, half for everyone else, will suffice.


Other airports you're referring to aren't still paying for a billion dollar+ runway that was built for TWA. STL decided to invest in renovating T1 and sprucing up A/C, which has worked. WN helped pay for T2 so they aren't going to want to just dump and run. Reading the tea leaves, I'd wager airport leadership would like to fill as many gates as possible in C, get WN to expand a few more gates down D and then realistically justify a new terminal expense. At the end of the day the airlines have to support it, especially WN.

The problem with consolidation in the current facility is no single concourse has enough space. Pre-pandemic, A was full. I know they list available gates, but there isn't really room. B is closed and isn't needed. T2 keeps creeping down D as WN adds service. C doesn't have enough space for everyone.

Don't get me wrong, I agree the single linear concourse makes the most sense. Keep WN in T2, move everyone to C, demolish A/B, build that half and then move everyone from C to the new side. Demolish C and finish the linear concourse. This is similar to what SLC has done/is doing. This would cost $2 billion+

STL is somewhat unique compared to other former mid-continent hubs. While at its peak 30+ million passed through the airport, in 2019 the airport was at 16 million. (and growing)
By comparison, IND under 10-million, MEM under 5-million, CLE 10-million, CVG under 10-million, MCI under under 11-million. STL has been able to attract and grow traffic from its low point during the 2008 recession. It isn't growing at the rate AUS and BNA.


You make valid points, but isn't the runway close to being paid off? Yes, the renovations have been nice, but they are only a temporary band aid. STL in the long term doesn't need two terminals, and D doesn't really have the proper hold room size to handle WN 800s/MAX 8's (yes it can work, but not as well). A modern, single 50 gate concourse along the existing Terminal 1 (along with a corresponding renovation/slight expansion of the head terminal) will serve STL needs for well into the future.

Are there any links to the proposed layout plan Jshank83 was referring to?


3 options were posted up a little higher.

This is the 2012 layout plan it has about a dozen options ranked for best fit. Single and double concourse options.

They start at page 459 (5-28)

https://www.flystl.com/uploads/document ... Master.pdf

My concern about flights moving to MCI is about nil. Southwest doesn’t keep adding flights here and talk about us being a backbone station to move them to MCI in two years. MCI will grow (there are some routes I think nonstops work If they can get a little connecting added on) but not at the expense of us. I do think Denver turning into a mega hub is could hamper MCI a bit though. Easier to just run traffic thru it. Whatever the airport does here, WN will have a big say in it.
 
Runway765
Posts: 343
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2021 1:21 am

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:21 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
Runway765 wrote:
dcaproducer wrote:

Other airports you're referring to aren't still paying for a billion dollar+ runway that was built for TWA. STL decided to invest in renovating T1 and sprucing up A/C, which has worked. WN helped pay for T2 so they aren't going to want to just dump and run. Reading the tea leaves, I'd wager airport leadership would like to fill as many gates as possible in C, get WN to expand a few more gates down D and then realistically justify a new terminal expense. At the end of the day the airlines have to support it, especially WN.

The problem with consolidation in the current facility is no single concourse has enough space. Pre-pandemic, A was full. I know they list available gates, but there isn't really room. B is closed and isn't needed. T2 keeps creeping down D as WN adds service. C doesn't have enough space for everyone.

Don't get me wrong, I agree the single linear concourse makes the most sense. Keep WN in T2, move everyone to C, demolish A/B, build that half and then move everyone from C to the new side. Demolish C and finish the linear concourse. This is similar to what SLC has done/is doing. This would cost $2 billion+

STL is somewhat unique compared to other former mid-continent hubs. While at its peak 30+ million passed through the airport, in 2019 the airport was at 16 million. (and growing)
By comparison, IND under 10-million, MEM under 5-million, CLE 10-million, CVG under 10-million, MCI under under 11-million. STL has been able to attract and grow traffic from its low point during the 2008 recession. It isn't growing at the rate AUS and BNA.


You make valid points, but isn't the runway close to being paid off? Yes, the renovations have been nice, but they are only a temporary band aid. STL in the long term doesn't need two terminals, and D doesn't really have the proper hold room size to handle WN 800s/MAX 8's (yes it can work, but not as well). A modern, single 50 gate concourse along the existing Terminal 1 (along with a corresponding renovation/slight expansion of the head terminal) will serve STL needs for well into the future.

Are there any links to the proposed layout plan Jshank83 was referring to?


3 options were posted up a little higher.

This is the 2012 layout plan it has about a dozen options ranked for best fit. Single and double concourse options.

They start at page 459 (5-28)

https://www.flystl.com/uploads/document ... Master.pdf

My concern about flights moving to MCI is about nil. Southwest doesn’t keep adding flights here and talk about us being a backbone station to move them to MCI in two years. MCI will grow (there are some routes I think nonstops work If they can get a little connecting added on) but not at the expense of us. I do think Denver turning into a mega hub is could hamper MCI a bit though. Easier to just run traffic thru it. Whatever the airport does here, WN will have a big say in it.


Interesting. Those are nearly a decade old, so they may need to update it.

Is STL behind the scenes looking actively at a terminal revamp? I know the privatization consultants were looking at it.

Agree about MCI, even with the new terminal, a build up there would make it redundant with DEN, and it's clear WN is putting a lot of eggs in the DEN basket. My broader point was its always good to invest in long term improvements to your facilities in order to ensure you remain competitive for new flights.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 4164
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:32 pm

Runway765 wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
Runway765 wrote:

You make valid points, but isn't the runway close to being paid off? Yes, the renovations have been nice, but they are only a temporary band aid. STL in the long term doesn't need two terminals, and D doesn't really have the proper hold room size to handle WN 800s/MAX 8's (yes it can work, but not as well). A modern, single 50 gate concourse along the existing Terminal 1 (along with a corresponding renovation/slight expansion of the head terminal) will serve STL needs for well into the future.

Are there any links to the proposed layout plan Jshank83 was referring to?


3 options were posted up a little higher.

This is the 2012 layout plan it has about a dozen options ranked for best fit. Single and double concourse options.

They start at page 459 (5-28)

https://www.flystl.com/uploads/document ... Master.pdf

My concern about flights moving to MCI is about nil. Southwest doesn’t keep adding flights here and talk about us being a backbone station to move them to MCI in two years. MCI will grow (there are some routes I think nonstops work If they can get a little connecting added on) but not at the expense of us. I do think Denver turning into a mega hub is could hamper MCI a bit though. Easier to just run traffic thru it. Whatever the airport does here, WN will have a big say in it.


Interesting. Those are nearly a decade old, so they may need to update it.

Is STL behind the scenes looking actively at a terminal revamp? I know the privatization consultants were looking at it.

Agree about MCI, even with the new terminal, a build up there would make it redundant with DEN, and it's clear WN is putting a lot of eggs in the DEN basket. My broader point was its always good to invest in long term improvements to your facilities in order to ensure you remain competitive for new flights.



They are in the middle of updating it right now. They have done 2 surveys so far to get public input. I think once the results come out at the back half of the year we will hear of a long term plan.

https://www.flystl.com/about-us/stl-airport-layout-plan
 
atrude777
Posts: 4465
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:44 pm

stlgph wrote:
A concourse rebuild is pretty easy and works out existing infrastructure, which saves a lot of time and money.

Think of how the Denver Airport terminal is laid out with its Concourse A.

You start with what is left of B - that becomes your primary point from the main terminal out to a proposed line concourse running from what is now the linear equal of A and C. You can build there, get the structure needed to move Delta from A and the commuter airlines over from C over while you tear out the dog legs in A and C. You can then go down the rest of the structure tearing down and building one step at a time without too much disruption to operations (think of how this is being done at LaGuardia) with what is now C28 probably being the ultimate end of this one singular concourse to the east.

This allows for a full demo of the old D Concourse and allows for a full, better re-think/build-out of Terminal 2.


Gavin-

Is your thought of making A/B/C the long midfield Terminal similar to the First Idea??

I propose...once thats completed, a long walk bridge that connects the end of the Mid Field Terminal to Terminal 2-Southwest. E/D is still connected and extended, but the bridge can be high enough to accommodate aircraft that need to taxi underneath (think DEN, and PHX as examples).

This allows Terminal 1 to become a midfield, and it allows Southwest to keep Terminal 2 and even expand on it, and allows both Terminals to be connected beyond security and allows aircraft from "inside" to not be trapped and be able to taxi to the runways and other gates.

Little complex I agree...

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
Runway765
Posts: 343
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2021 1:21 am

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Apr 09, 2021 4:12 pm

atrude777 wrote:
stlgph wrote:
A concourse rebuild is pretty easy and works out existing infrastructure, which saves a lot of time and money.

Think of how the Denver Airport terminal is laid out with its Concourse A.

You start with what is left of B - that becomes your primary point from the main terminal out to a proposed line concourse running from what is now the linear equal of A and C. You can build there, get the structure needed to move Delta from A and the commuter airlines over from C over while you tear out the dog legs in A and C. You can then go down the rest of the structure tearing down and building one step at a time without too much disruption to operations (think of how this is being done at LaGuardia) with what is now C28 probably being the ultimate end of this one singular concourse to the east.

This allows for a full demo of the old D Concourse and allows for a full, better re-think/build-out of Terminal 2.


Gavin-

Is your thought of making A/B/C the long midfield Terminal similar to the First Idea??

I propose...once thats completed, a long walk bridge that connects the end of the Mid Field Terminal to Terminal 2-Southwest. E/D is still connected and extended, but the bridge can be high enough to accommodate aircraft that need to taxi underneath (think DEN, and PHX as examples).

This allows Terminal 1 to become a midfield, and it allows Southwest to keep Terminal 2 and even expand on it, and allows both Terminals to be connected beyond security and allows aircraft from "inside" to not be trapped and be able to taxi to the runways and other gates.

Little complex I agree...

Alex


Why would this be necessary?

The point of a rebuild should be to consolidate all airlines in the same terminal. Splitting the terminals is inefficient. Literally, rebuild Terminal 1 with a 50 gate linear concourse, give half to WN and half for everyone else and STL is set. And because of all the unused gate space, it wouldn't be as disruptive to move around during construction. Terminal 2 could then be demolished or repurposed for non-passenger uses.

STL really has a wonderful opportunity to think modern and build a 21st century terminal, I hope they go big.
 
stlgph
Posts: 11338
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Apr 09, 2021 5:14 pm

Saying "all airlines need to be in the same terminal because it is inefficient," is strictly your opinion.

And going big isn't going to happen.

The point of the plan I laid out is simple -
1. Use of existing infrastructure, both building and field, wherever possible, streamlining costs and execution
2. Allows continued operation of the terminal/concourse areas with minimal disruption

Right now the airport is in a huge debate about staying a public entity, being leased out, or privatized. Any new owner/management group isn't going to be looking to go balls to wall and spend billions and billions just for a showy terminal. That isn't necessary. Lambert isn't a hub and just needs to be a functional airport for its current operators and vendors. The new folks in charge won't be wanting to take on additional debt, where it isn't needed, especially when infrastructure is friendly to make efficient changes and bring the facilities up to date and provide a world class facility, as needed.

Staying at two terminals allows catering to your biggest vendor and provides even more opportunities for leasing and retail. Why go with a single terminal when you can have two, expandable ones, when you can lease more space for more Wingtips-style lounges, more Starbucks and Dunkin Donuts, stores, etc., and provide different scope of leasing rates for each terminal, etc. etc.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
BHMNONREV
Posts: 1248
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 9:17 am

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Apr 09, 2021 5:15 pm

Runway765 wrote:
atrude777 wrote:
stlgph wrote:
A concourse rebuild is pretty easy and works out existing infrastructure, which saves a lot of time and money.

Think of how the Denver Airport terminal is laid out with its Concourse A.

You start with what is left of B - that becomes your primary point from the main terminal out to a proposed line concourse running from what is now the linear equal of A and C. You can build there, get the structure needed to move Delta from A and the commuter airlines over from C over while you tear out the dog legs in A and C. You can then go down the rest of the structure tearing down and building one step at a time without too much disruption to operations (think of how this is being done at LaGuardia) with what is now C28 probably being the ultimate end of this one singular concourse to the east.

This allows for a full demo of the old D Concourse and allows for a full, better re-think/build-out of Terminal 2.


Gavin-

Is your thought of making A/B/C the long midfield Terminal similar to the First Idea??

I propose...once thats completed, a long walk bridge that connects the end of the Mid Field Terminal to Terminal 2-Southwest. E/D is still connected and extended, but the bridge can be high enough to accommodate aircraft that need to taxi underneath (think DEN, and PHX as examples).

This allows Terminal 1 to become a midfield, and it allows Southwest to keep Terminal 2 and even expand on it, and allows both Terminals to be connected beyond security and allows aircraft from "inside" to not be trapped and be able to taxi to the runways and other gates.

Little complex I agree...

Alex


Why would this be necessary?

The point of a rebuild should be to consolidate all airlines in the same terminal. Splitting the terminals is inefficient. Literally, rebuild Terminal 1 with a 50 gate linear concourse, give half to WN and half for everyone else and STL is set. And because of all the unused gate space, it wouldn't be as disruptive to move around during construction. Terminal 2 could then be demolished or repurposed for non-passenger uses.

STL really has a wonderful opportunity to think modern and build a 21st century terminal, I hope they go big.
.

IMHO any discussion regarding moving WN from T2 is a non-starter at this point, as stated previously they have a significant stake in the building as well as serious clout with Ms. RHN so in all honesty I just can't see this happening. And if any teardown of D takes place they can always push out to the east to replace gates.

I think from a realistic standpoint, if anything gets done it will be something along the lines of I-D-2a (page 464) or I-D-2b (page 465) as shown in the Layout Master Plan. Re-alignment of the concourses is a must, while taking advantage of existing terminal structure to keep costs down. But in the end, I see this can continue to be kicked down the road.

Although I gotta say, some of the proposed designs are extremely interesting. And nice to dream.. :)
 
dcaproducer
Posts: 417
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:26 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Apr 09, 2021 5:31 pm

BHMNONREV wrote:
Runway765 wrote:
atrude777 wrote:

Gavin-

Is your thought of making A/B/C the long midfield Terminal similar to the First Idea??

I propose...once thats completed, a long walk bridge that connects the end of the Mid Field Terminal to Terminal 2-Southwest. E/D is still connected and extended, but the bridge can be high enough to accommodate aircraft that need to taxi underneath (think DEN, and PHX as examples).

This allows Terminal 1 to become a midfield, and it allows Southwest to keep Terminal 2 and even expand on it, and allows both Terminals to be connected beyond security and allows aircraft from "inside" to not be trapped and be able to taxi to the runways and other gates.

Little complex I agree...

Alex


Why would this be necessary?

The point of a rebuild should be to consolidate all airlines in the same terminal. Splitting the terminals is inefficient. Literally, rebuild Terminal 1 with a 50 gate linear concourse, give half to WN and half for everyone else and STL is set. And because of all the unused gate space, it wouldn't be as disruptive to move around during construction. Terminal 2 could then be demolished or repurposed for non-passenger uses.

STL really has a wonderful opportunity to think modern and build a 21st century terminal, I hope they go big.
.

IMHO any discussion regarding moving WN from T2 is a non-starter at this point, as stated previously they have a significant stake in the building as well as serious clout with Ms. RHN so in all honesty I just can't see this happening. And if any teardown of D takes place they can always push out to the east to replace gates.

I think from a realistic standpoint, if anything gets done it will be something along the lines of I-D-2a (page 464) or I-D-2b (page 465) as shown in the Layout Master Plan. Re-alignment of the concourses is a must, while taking advantage of existing terminal structure to keep costs down. But in the end, I see this can continue to be kicked down the road.

Although I gotta say, some of the proposed designs are extremely interesting. And nice to dream.. :)


I'm on the same page. I think they will continue to kick this can. Also, expanding T2 into D and re-imagining D into something more modern that connects into T1 would solve the problem of allowing passengers to go between the two. Nothing gets done without WN's say-so, just like in the days of TWA.
 
Runway765
Posts: 343
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2021 1:21 am

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Apr 09, 2021 7:37 pm

dcaproducer wrote:
Nothing gets done without WN's say-so, just like in the days of TWA.


And this right here is the wild card in everything. What does WN want to do in STL long term? There hasn’t been 100% clarity in that, and thats probably the biggest factor that has to be taken into consideration in any potential terminal revamp.
 
bretonrlong
Posts: 57
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:52 am

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:18 pm

Runway765 wrote:
dcaproducer wrote:
Nothing gets done without WN's say-so, just like in the days of TWA.


And this right here is the wild card in everything. What does WN want to do in STL long term? There hasn’t been 100% clarity in that, and thats probably the biggest factor that has to be taken into consideration in any potential terminal revamp.


This is also why I am even more of a fan of NK coming into the STL market. More competition and need to keep WN in check. I am a fan of WN, but I am even more of a fan of competition.
 
N983AN
Posts: 125
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:15 am

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:14 pm

Runway765 wrote:
STLflyer wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:

It emptied back into the concourse. I think that is one reasons it moved.


Holy crap, so if you were ending your trip in STL, you had to re-check your bag, re-clear security only to leave airside and then go re-collect your bags from the domestic bag claims?

I can see why that moved.


I believe that was pretty common in these mid-sized market hubs back in the day. Since they figured most passengers were simply connecting onto another flight, they didn't need a sterile corridor to the landslide terminal. CVG, PIT, MEM and BNA all had similar setups IIRC.


Forget midsize airports: ATL did until as recently as mid-2012 when the Maynard Jackson International Terminal (Concourse F) opened.
 
jplatts
Posts: 4389
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:19 pm

Runway765 wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
My concern about flights moving to MCI is about nil. Southwest doesn’t keep adding flights here and talk about us being a backbone station to move them to MCI in two years. MCI will grow (there are some routes I think nonstops work If they can get a little connecting added on) but not at the expense of us. I do think Denver turning into a mega hub is could hamper MCI a bit though. Easier to just run traffic thru it. Whatever the airport does here, WN will have a big say in it.


Interesting. Those are nearly a decade old, so they may need to update it.

Is STL behind the scenes looking actively at a terminal revamp? I know the privatization consultants were looking at it.

Agree about MCI, even with the new terminal, a build up there would make it redundant with DEN, and it's clear WN is putting a lot of eggs in the DEN basket. My broader point was its always good to invest in long term improvements to your facilities in order to ensure you remain competitive for new flights.


WN is unlikely to ever add MCI-DSM/OMA/ICT nonstop service with DSM, OMA, and ICT being too close to MCI, and WN is unlikely to ever re-add MCI-TUL nonstop service for similar reasons. In addition to STL being further from DSM, OMA, TUL, and ICT, there are also more connecting opportunities at STL on WN to Eastern U.S. destinations such as BOS, CLT, CLE, CMH, DTW, BDL, IND, PHL, PIT, and RDU.

The shorter WN nonstop routes that have a high percentage of connecting traffic and very little O&D such as ATL-GSP, MDW-GRR, and COS-DEN are to/from WN stations bigger than MCI. There are also more connecting opportunities at ATL, MDW, and DEN on WN than at MCI on WN.

STL is also in a bigger metro area than MCI, with the population of the STL metro area being approximately 2.9 million whereas the population of the MCI metro area is around 2.5 million.

Most of the WN destinations east of the Mississippi River also had higher PDEW's from STL than from MCI in Q3 2019.

WN will also probably add nonstop service to a few more destinations out of STL.

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