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Jshank83
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Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:26 am

stlgph wrote:

Right now the airport is in a huge debate about staying a public entity, being leased out, or privatized. Any new owner/management group isn't going to be looking to go balls to wall and spend billions and billions just for a showy terminal..


Privatization is dead. Like dead dead after the election this week. There is no way the new progressive slant will ever endorse any kind of privatization. Some democrat groups refused to back candidates that would even consider it.

I think now that we have some certainty on that front and the big chunk of the debt will be paid off in a few years we will see movement on long term plans by next year sometime. Once the airport layout plan is done this fall they should have all they need to make some decisions.
 
STLflyer
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:44 am

Runway765 wrote:
dcaproducer wrote:
Nothing gets done without WN's say-so, just like in the days of TWA.


And this right here is the wild card in everything. What does WN want to do in STL long term? There hasn’t been 100% clarity in that, and thats probably the biggest factor that has to be taken into consideration in any potential terminal revamp.


Right now, WN’s customers can make it from I-70 to their gate without seeing any sign (literally or figuratively) of their competitors. All they see are WN check in desks, WN gates, all they hear are WN boarding announcements in the terminal. I can’t imagine them wanting to change it, the last thing they want is for a WN flyer who hasn’t been paying attention to airline news to walk past a Spirit check-in desk and say “Hmm, I didn’t know Spirit flew here. I wonder where they fly and how much they charge?” Or for a casual traveler who knows nothing about airline hubs and where airlines fly to from here to hear “Attention passengers, United flight 1234 to Denver is now boarding at gate 17” while they’re waiting for their Southwest flight to Denver at gate 19 because they thought Southwest was the only airline that served STL-DEN nonstop.

It just seems like Southwest has a huge competitive advantage having an entire terminal to themselves, why would they agree to changing that? And I know STL is the exception and not the norm when it comes to that, but why would they give that up?
 
Runway765
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat Apr 10, 2021 2:40 am

STLflyer wrote:
Runway765 wrote:
dcaproducer wrote:
Nothing gets done without WN's say-so, just like in the days of TWA.


And this right here is the wild card in everything. What does WN want to do in STL long term? There hasn’t been 100% clarity in that, and thats probably the biggest factor that has to be taken into consideration in any potential terminal revamp.


Right now, WN’s customers can make it from I-70 to their gate without seeing any sign (literally or figuratively) of their competitors. All they see are WN check in desks, WN gates, all they hear are WN boarding announcements in the terminal. I can’t imagine them wanting to change it, the last thing they want is for a WN flyer who hasn’t been paying attention to airline news to walk past a Spirit check-in desk and say “Hmm, I didn’t know Spirit flew here. I wonder where they fly and how much they charge?” Or for a casual traveler who knows nothing about airline hubs and where airlines fly to from here to hear “Attention passengers, United flight 1234 to Denver is now boarding at gate 17” while they’re waiting for their Southwest flight to Denver at gate 19 because they thought Southwest was the only airline that served STL-DEN nonstop.

It just seems like Southwest has a huge competitive advantage having an entire terminal to themselves, why would they agree to changing that? And I know STL is the exception and not the norm when it comes to that, but why would they give that up?


I’m sorry, but that’s pretty laughable. WN isn’t that fragile, and most people would be checking fares out long before they get to the airport. That doesn’t affect them anywhere else, why would it in STL?

I can’t imagine WN would object to building a single terminal as long as the cost was reasonable. They’d be able to move into new gates with properly sized hold rooms which would help with expansion.

Literally, all they have to do is demolish A/B/C and replace it with one linear concourse with 45-50 gates. They could reuse the existing T1 landslide facilities to save money. I can’t imagine that would cost any more than what MCI/PIT is doing, and I know for a fact it’s would be way less than what BNA (which has a similarly sized WN station) is doing.
 
dcaproducer
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:48 am

Runway765 wrote:
STLflyer wrote:
Runway765 wrote:

And this right here is the wild card in everything. What does WN want to do in STL long term? There hasn’t been 100% clarity in that, and thats probably the biggest factor that has to be taken into consideration in any potential terminal revamp.


Right now, WN’s customers can make it from I-70 to their gate without seeing any sign (literally or figuratively) of their competitors. All they see are WN check in desks, WN gates, all they hear are WN boarding announcements in the terminal. I can’t imagine them wanting to change it, the last thing they want is for a WN flyer who hasn’t been paying attention to airline news to walk past a Spirit check-in desk and say “Hmm, I didn’t know Spirit flew here. I wonder where they fly and how much they charge?” Or for a casual traveler who knows nothing about airline hubs and where airlines fly to from here to hear “Attention passengers, United flight 1234 to Denver is now boarding at gate 17” while they’re waiting for their Southwest flight to Denver at gate 19 because they thought Southwest was the only airline that served STL-DEN nonstop.

It just seems like Southwest has a huge competitive advantage having an entire terminal to themselves, why would they agree to changing that? And I know STL is the exception and not the norm when it comes to that, but why would they give that up?


I’m sorry, but that’s pretty laughable. WN isn’t that fragile, and most people would be checking fares out long before they get to the airport. That doesn’t affect them anywhere else, why would it in STL?

I can’t imagine WN would object to building a single terminal as long as the cost was reasonable. They’d be able to move into new gates with properly sized hold rooms which would help with expansion.

Literally, all they have to do is demolish A/B/C and replace it with one linear concourse with 45-50 gates. They could reuse the existing T1 landslide facilities to save money. I can’t imagine that would cost any more than what MCI/PIT is doing, and I know for a fact it’s would be way less than what BNA (which has a similarly sized WN station) is doing.


Again, where is the $2billion+ coming from to do this? And WN has this exact setup (their own terminal) at BWI and the airport bends over backwards for WN. They don’t mix with any of the other airlines. (And maybe someone else here knows the latest debt #, but I thought the runway still has a few hundred million left)

Also, 40-50 gates isn’t enough. The airport currently has nearly 50 gates assigned. (Source: FlyStl.com) If the airport wants any room for new carriers they would need to have 60+ gates. This isn’t IND or PIT (which both have far fewer flights/passengers than STL)

I’m not discounting a mew terminal would be awesome, but STL has the advantage of space that’s built and cheap for WN.
 
Runway765
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:39 pm

dcaproducer wrote:
Runway765 wrote:
STLflyer wrote:

Right now, WN’s customers can make it from I-70 to their gate without seeing any sign (literally or figuratively) of their competitors. All they see are WN check in desks, WN gates, all they hear are WN boarding announcements in the terminal. I can’t imagine them wanting to change it, the last thing they want is for a WN flyer who hasn’t been paying attention to airline news to walk past a Spirit check-in desk and say “Hmm, I didn’t know Spirit flew here. I wonder where they fly and how much they charge?” Or for a casual traveler who knows nothing about airline hubs and where airlines fly to from here to hear “Attention passengers, United flight 1234 to Denver is now boarding at gate 17” while they’re waiting for their Southwest flight to Denver at gate 19 because they thought Southwest was the only airline that served STL-DEN nonstop.

It just seems like Southwest has a huge competitive advantage having an entire terminal to themselves, why would they agree to changing that? And I know STL is the exception and not the norm when it comes to that, but why would they give that up?


I’m sorry, but that’s pretty laughable. WN isn’t that fragile, and most people would be checking fares out long before they get to the airport. That doesn’t affect them anywhere else, why would it in STL?

I can’t imagine WN would object to building a single terminal as long as the cost was reasonable. They’d be able to move into new gates with properly sized hold rooms which would help with expansion.

Literally, all they have to do is demolish A/B/C and replace it with one linear concourse with 45-50 gates. They could reuse the existing T1 landslide facilities to save money. I can’t imagine that would cost any more than what MCI/PIT is doing, and I know for a fact it’s would be way less than what BNA (which has a similarly sized WN station) is doing.


Again, where is the $2billion+ coming from to do this? And WN has this exact setup (their own terminal) at BWI and the airport bends over backwards for WN. They don’t mix with any of the other airlines. (And maybe someone else here knows the latest debt #, but I thought the runway still has a few hundred million left)

Also, 40-50 gates isn’t enough. The airport currently has nearly 50 gates assigned. (Source: FlyStl.com) If the airport wants any room for new carriers they would need to have 60+ gates. This isn’t IND or PIT (which both have far fewer flights/passengers than STL)

I’m not discounting a mew terminal would be awesome, but STL has the advantage of space that’s built and cheap for WN.


Not exactly. WN at BWI has dedicated concourses, but it is all still considered “one terminal” technically.

I’m not understanding where this $2 billion+ price tag is coming from to build a single concourse when the new MCI is building and entirely new structure (head terminal, concourses, parking garage, etc) for only $1.5 billion.

Also, if STL has space that is “built and cheap” for WN, why haven’t they expanded anymore into D? They’ve had plenty of opportunities to do so and they haven’t.
 
Jshank83
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:16 pm

Runway765 wrote:

Also, if STL has space that is “built and cheap” for WN, why haven’t they expanded anymore into D? They’ve had plenty of opportunities to do so and they haven’t.


They have been pretty methodical about growing here. There is no reason to open D all up just to do it until they need to. They just opened 4 new gates in 2018 or 2019? And I was told by multiple people they had plans to open up more 3 more gates in D pre covid but that’s now on hold due to covid. Not sure where that stands at the moment. So opening a few more gates every couple years is pretty good. The 16 gates they have now they still have slack to add more flights.
 
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OzarkD9S
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:51 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
Runway765 wrote:

Also, if STL has space that is “built and cheap” for WN, why haven’t they expanded anymore into D? They’ve had plenty of opportunities to do so and they haven’t.


They have been pretty methodical about growing here. There is no reason to open D all up just to do it until they need to. They just opened 4 new gates in 2018 or 2019? And I was told by multiple people they had plans to open up more 3 more gates in D pre covid but that’s now on hold due to covid. Not sure where that stands at the moment. So opening a few more gates every couple years is pretty good. The 16 gates they have now they still have slack to add more flights.


I've been pleasantly surprised by WN's growth here in STL. "Methodical" is the perfect word. I remember the discussions on A-net when AA announced the de-hubbing. At the time, many of us speculated that this was a golden opportunity for AS, FL or even B6 to get their mid-continent groove on. But WN persevered, and while it would have been interesting to see any of those carriers hub here, I think we did very well with the WN "hublet". An add or two here, another gate or two there. I've stated before that pre-Covid, WN was offering more seats per day than Ozark Airlines was at it's peak. Which kind of proves my eternal point, that STL is a great small/medium hub. I even ventured to say that AA and US should have swapped STL and PIT as that would have expanded both their networks in areas of the country that were both weak for them. But AA and US merged, and both would have bit the dust anyway.
"My soul is in the sky". -Pyramus- A Midsummer's Night Dream
 
dcaproducer
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:49 am

Runway765 wrote:
dcaproducer wrote:
Runway765 wrote:

I’m sorry, but that’s pretty laughable. WN isn’t that fragile, and most people would be checking fares out long before they get to the airport. That doesn’t affect them anywhere else, why would it in STL?

I can’t imagine WN would object to building a single terminal as long as the cost was reasonable. They’d be able to move into new gates with properly sized hold rooms which would help with expansion.

Literally, all they have to do is demolish A/B/C and replace it with one linear concourse with 45-50 gates. They could reuse the existing T1 landslide facilities to save money. I can’t imagine that would cost any more than what MCI/PIT is doing, and I know for a fact it’s would be way less than what BNA (which has a similarly sized WN station) is doing.


Again, where is the $2billion+ coming from to do this? And WN has this exact setup (their own terminal) at BWI and the airport bends over backwards for WN. They don’t mix with any of the other airlines. (And maybe someone else here knows the latest debt #, but I thought the runway still has a few hundred million left)

Also, 40-50 gates isn’t enough. The airport currently has nearly 50 gates assigned. (Source: FlyStl.com) If the airport wants any room for new carriers they would need to have 60+ gates. This isn’t IND or PIT (which both have far fewer flights/passengers than STL)

I’m not discounting a mew terminal would be awesome, but STL has the advantage of space that’s built and cheap for WN.


Not exactly. WN at BWI has dedicated concourses, but it is all still considered “one terminal” technically.

I’m not understanding where this $2 billion+ price tag is coming from to build a single concourse when the new MCI is building and entirely new structure (head terminal, concourses, parking garage, etc) for only $1.5 billion.

Also, if STL has space that is “built and cheap” for WN, why haven’t they expanded anymore into D? They’ve had plenty of opportunities to do so and they haven’t.


Have you been to BWI? WN is essentially off on its own.

And just because MCI costs $1.5 billion doesn’t mean that’s what it costs STL to build a new terminal. It’s entirely dependent on the design. SLC is over $4 billion.

Bottom line, STL has facilities and space. WN will dictate what happens and the airport is happy to renovate more D gates.

Like I said a new terminal would be great. But the airport needs to get debt paid off and capacity up. Then they can really justify a new terminal. MCI had some major issues they needed to fix.

I understand the passion for a new terminal, but STL has some facilities some other airports would love to have.
 
reednavy
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:38 pm

STL & MODOT also really need to address the absolute clusterf**k that is the maze of roads & ramps around the airport on/for I-70 & access to/from the airport.
 
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stl07
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:04 am

Something of note, Eastern is flying ORD-SJJ. Could be something we should tap into as well
Instead of typing in "mods", consider using the report function.
Love how every "travel blogger" says they will never fly AA/Ethihad again and then says it again and again on subsequent flights.
 
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TWA302
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:04 pm

stl07 wrote:
Something of note, Eastern is flying ORD-SJJ. Could be something we should tap into as well


I know that we have the largest Bosnian population in the US. I wonder what the traffic would be like? ORD-SJJ looks like 1x weekly for $898 RT
 
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TWA302
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:31 pm

Just saw a G4 TV spot on KMOV promoting the BLV-CHS route. First time I have ever seen them.
 
Jshank83
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:55 pm

United updated their June schedule @flystl

DEN 4x daily
ORD 5x daily
EWR 2x daily
IAH 4x daily
IAD 2x daily
HHH 3x weekly
MYR 3x weekly
SFO still suspended

18 flights a day.
April-14 flights a day
July 2019 - 29 flights a day

Slowly coming back
 
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TWA302
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:09 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
United updated their June schedule @flystl

DEN 4x daily
ORD 5x daily
EWR 2x daily
IAH 4x daily
IAD 2x daily
HHH 3x weekly
MYR 3x weekly
SFO still suspended

18 flights a day.
April-14 flights a day
July 2019 - 29 flights a day

Slowly coming back



Has UA given any reason why SFO is still suspended? Seems very odd.
 
jplatts
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:12 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
IAH 4x daily


WN adding STL-IAH nonstop service is a possibility once demand recovers with
(a) WN currently down to 2 daily nonstops on STL-HOU from 4x daily prior to the COVID-19 pandemic,
(b) UA still having less nonstop service to IAH from STL than it did prior to the COVID-19 pandemic, with UA having operated 5x daily to IAH from STL prior to the COVID-19 pandemic,
(c) the connecting opportunities that would be there to the Midwest and Northeast through STL on WN,
(d) a significant amount of population on the north side of Greater Houston, and
(e) WN already having a significant FF base in both markets to support STL-IAH nonstop service on WN.
 
Jshank83
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:52 pm

TWA302 wrote:


Has UA given any reason why SFO is still suspended? Seems very odd.


Just waiting on business travel I would guess. They have been slow to roll SFO back out to Midwest/east cities.
 
Jshank83
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:50 pm

January numbers for BLV

Passengers down 32% from last January

Rough one (although still better than most). Summer schedule is looking good though.
 
Jshank83
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:23 am

Finally got around to reading somewhat thru the new airport layout documents.

Found a few interesting things.

Clubs

“Current discussions with the carriers did not indicate the need for additional club locations. However, in the recent past, one airline expressed interest in a club. For forecasting, a new 4,000 sq. ft. club was added beginning 2025”

Gates

The Airport has a number of larger capacity (Boeing 757 and ADG V) gates. At Terminal 1, Gate A10 is marked for Boeing 757 and Gate A18 is marked for a Boeing 767; however, both Gates A18 and A10 holdrooms are undersized for these aircraft. Gates C28 and C30 are marked for ADG V aircraft and have holdrooms capable of supporting those aircraft. At Terminal 2, Gate E29 is marked for ADG V aircraft, but blocks Gate E31 when in use.

Terminal 2 has three ADG III gates capable of international arrivals: E29, 31 and 33. Gates E29 and 31 are the primary Federal Inspection Service (FIS) gates. A Letter of Understanding (LOU) between Southwest Airlines and the STLAA states that Gate E33 will be made available for international flights if needed.

International arrivals gates, however, will need to accommodate widebody aircraft on a regular basis in the near term if the Airport’s air service development objectives are met. Based on aircraft design trends, these gates should be capable of handling ADG V wingspans. At present, when a widebody aircraft parks at Gate E29, Gate E31 is not usable. Both holdrooms at Gates E29 and E31 are needed to accommodate an ADG V aircraft passenger load. In that situation, Gate E33 is still available for international narrowbody aircraft. Based on discussions with the Airport, at least one widebody (ADG V) gate should be available in the future, but the ramp and PLBs should be configured to serve two ADG III aircraft most of the time. For continuity, all international gates are included in the Terminal 2 program table. During alternatives development, these gates (and related FIS facilities) may be located in Terminal 1, even if Terminal 2 remains in operation.

Went on to say Southwest will need more gates in the near term. Also goes into gate projections in 1 or 2 terminal set ups. Interestingly it has T1 going down gates in use, which I don’t totally understand.

Terminals

Because the Airport’s forecasted growth in passengers and operations are primarily due to Southwest Airlines, Terminal 2 would need to expand if the current “two terminals” operational scenario continues.

It’s gets into a little of everything. But that’s what I found interesting so far.
 
dcaproducer
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Apr 16, 2021 12:40 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
Finally got around to reading somewhat thru the new airport layout documents.

Found a few interesting things.

Clubs

“Current discussions with the carriers did not indicate the need for additional club locations. However, in the recent past, one airline expressed interest in a club. For forecasting, a new 4,000 sq. ft. club was added beginning 2025”

Gates

The Airport has a number of larger capacity (Boeing 757 and ADG V) gates. At Terminal 1, Gate A10 is marked for Boeing 757 and Gate A18 is marked for a Boeing 767; however, both Gates A18 and A10 holdrooms are undersized for these aircraft. Gates C28 and C30 are marked for ADG V aircraft and have holdrooms capable of supporting those aircraft. At Terminal 2, Gate E29 is marked for ADG V aircraft, but blocks Gate E31 when in use.

Terminal 2 has three ADG III gates capable of international arrivals: E29, 31 and 33. Gates E29 and 31 are the primary Federal Inspection Service (FIS) gates. A Letter of Understanding (LOU) between Southwest Airlines and the STLAA states that Gate E33 will be made available for international flights if needed.

International arrivals gates, however, will need to accommodate widebody aircraft on a regular basis in the near term if the Airport’s air service development objectives are met. Based on aircraft design trends, these gates should be capable of handling ADG V wingspans. At present, when a widebody aircraft parks at Gate E29, Gate E31 is not usable. Both holdrooms at Gates E29 and E31 are needed to accommodate an ADG V aircraft passenger load. In that situation, Gate E33 is still available for international narrowbody aircraft. Based on discussions with the Airport, at least one widebody (ADG V) gate should be available in the future, but the ramp and PLBs should be configured to serve two ADG III aircraft most of the time. For continuity, all international gates are included in the Terminal 2 program table. During alternatives development, these gates (and related FIS facilities) may be located in Terminal 1, even if Terminal 2 remains in operation.

Went on to say Southwest will need more gates in the near term. Also goes into gate projections in 1 or 2 terminal set ups. Interestingly it has T1 going down gates in use, which I don’t totally understand.

Terminals

Because the Airport’s forecasted growth in passengers and operations are primarily due to Southwest Airlines, Terminal 2 would need to expand if the current “two terminals” operational scenario continues.

It’s gets into a little of everything. But that’s what I found interesting so far.


My guess would be the "club" is Delta. Pre-COVID they had a good amount of traffic and could use a SkyClub. I'm a big fan of this since I fly DL.

WN pre-COVID was going to need more D gates in short order. Even if the airport comes up with a plan for a new terminal layout, I think WN's need for more gates will come before any plan is implemented. I think D gets remodeled and opens all the way, connecting T1 to T2. Minimal investment while the airport figures out the best long term solution.

With all of this going on, does the T2 baggage claim project proceed? Any rumblings?

C has the most room for wide body aircraft, but dumping passengers back into C after cleaning customs isn't the best solution. The other solution, expand the existing FIS, expand a section of D near E34/E36. Make those new INTL gates, and push WN down a bit. Bigger hold room, more wing space. Just a thought.
 
Jshank83
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:21 pm

dcaproducer wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
Finally got around to reading somewhat thru the new airport layout documents.

Found a few interesting things.

Clubs

“Current discussions with the carriers did not indicate the need for additional club locations. However, in the recent past, one airline expressed interest in a club. For forecasting, a new 4,000 sq. ft. club was added beginning 2025”

Gates

The Airport has a number of larger capacity (Boeing 757 and ADG V) gates. At Terminal 1, Gate A10 is marked for Boeing 757 and Gate A18 is marked for a Boeing 767; however, both Gates A18 and A10 holdrooms are undersized for these aircraft. Gates C28 and C30 are marked for ADG V aircraft and have holdrooms capable of supporting those aircraft. At Terminal 2, Gate E29 is marked for ADG V aircraft, but blocks Gate E31 when in use.

Terminal 2 has three ADG III gates capable of international arrivals: E29, 31 and 33. Gates E29 and 31 are the primary Federal Inspection Service (FIS) gates. A Letter of Understanding (LOU) between Southwest Airlines and the STLAA states that Gate E33 will be made available for international flights if needed.

International arrivals gates, however, will need to accommodate widebody aircraft on a regular basis in the near term if the Airport’s air service development objectives are met. Based on aircraft design trends, these gates should be capable of handling ADG V wingspans. At present, when a widebody aircraft parks at Gate E29, Gate E31 is not usable. Both holdrooms at Gates E29 and E31 are needed to accommodate an ADG V aircraft passenger load. In that situation, Gate E33 is still available for international narrowbody aircraft. Based on discussions with the Airport, at least one widebody (ADG V) gate should be available in the future, but the ramp and PLBs should be configured to serve two ADG III aircraft most of the time. For continuity, all international gates are included in the Terminal 2 program table. During alternatives development, these gates (and related FIS facilities) may be located in Terminal 1, even if Terminal 2 remains in operation.

Went on to say Southwest will need more gates in the near term. Also goes into gate projections in 1 or 2 terminal set ups. Interestingly it has T1 going down gates in use, which I don’t totally understand.

Terminals

Because the Airport’s forecasted growth in passengers and operations are primarily due to Southwest Airlines, Terminal 2 would need to expand if the current “two terminals” operational scenario continues.

It’s gets into a little of everything. But that’s what I found interesting so far.


My guess would be the "club" is Delta. Pre-COVID they had a good amount of traffic and could use a SkyClub. I'm a big fan of this since I fly DL.

WN pre-COVID was going to need more D gates in short order. Even if the airport comes up with a plan for a new terminal layout, I think WN's need for more gates will come before any plan is implemented. I think D gets remodeled and opens all the way, connecting T1 to T2. Minimal investment while the airport figures out the best long term solution.

With all of this going on, does the T2 baggage claim project proceed? Any rumblings?

C has the most room for wide body aircraft, but dumping passengers back into C after cleaning customs isn't the best solution. The other solution, expand the existing FIS, expand a section of D near E34/E36. Make those new INTL gates, and push WN down a bit. Bigger hold room, more wing space. Just a thought.



I’d also guess it was delta. They had planned to upgrade to almost all mainline pre covid. Delta has been my legacy choice for a long time because I like their product but I’m starting to sour on them. They are down to only 5 destinations, only one of which (LGA) is somewhere I ever fly. With UA making an effort to find some point to point destinations and AA getting AS and JetBlue (sort of) as partners it is hard to justify staying with Delta.

In the airport commission meeting this month it was said they are pushing WN to get the baggage claim thing going again but it doesn’t have a start date yet. Personal opinion is they should have been doing it while traffic was low this last year.
 
dcaproducer
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Apr 16, 2021 5:37 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
I’d also guess it was delta. They had planned to upgrade to almost all mainline pre covid. Delta has been my legacy choice for a long time because I like their product but I’m starting to sour on them. They are down to only 5 destinations, only one of which (LGA) is somewhere I ever fly. With UA making an effort to find some point to point destinations and AA getting AS and JetBlue (sort of) as partners it is hard to justify staying with Delta.

In the airport commission meeting this month it was said they are pushing WN to get the baggage claim thing going again but it doesn’t have a start date yet. Personal opinion is they should have been doing it while traffic was low this last year.


Agreed on the baggage claim project.

Regarding DL, being based at DCA DL is actually a bit of a challenge. They basically fly to hubs only, and since DCA is both slot and perimeter restricted, flights are limited. DL used to have (2) daily flights to SLC, which was a good way to connect to the west coast, but now there's (1) because they gave (1) perimeter exemption slot to LAX. The LAX non-stop is super convenient and pre-COVID was a DeltaOne route. It departs at 5:30pm, gets into LAX at 8:15pm, so it was a perfect dinner flight. Since COVID, DCA has been way down in flights. I had to go to SEA this week and the flight options were very limited. I'm hoping more flights will come back as service expands. DL does a great job of keeping its fleet interiors up to date. Pre-COVID they were always on time and I ran into very few delays. (I average 50-60 segments a year) Also, as a business traveler who checks a lot of heavy Pelican cases, DL has the best baggage policy for high level medallion members. As a Platinum I get (3) 70lb bags. (Better than AA, which is the airline I used to fly)

Since I am originally from STL moved to AA after the TWA acquisition. Then in 2008 a client of mine, based in ATL, got me to switch to DL. The experience has been much better. (In general)

DL made deep cuts during COVID and suspended many smaller markets. I see some service returning to STL as things improve.
 
atrude777
Posts: 4465
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:26 pm

EAS Proposal for Quincy-UIN is out. Currently sees Cape Air service to STL and ORD. Well known for SkyWest losing the bid shockingly, with reasons for extensive delays to ORD and reliability.

https://www.regulations.gov/document/DO ... 14492-0092

Proposal is also out for Cape Girardeau-CGI. Used to see Cape Air service to STL. Now sees UA/SkyWest service to Chicago-ORD. SkyWest has been serving CGI since 2017. Be curious if SkyWest bids again. Cape Air did not bid the last round.

https://www.regulations.gov/document/DO ... -1559-0104

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
Jshank83
Posts: 4167
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:51 pm

atrude777 wrote:
EAS Proposal for Quincy-UIN is out. Currently sees Cape Air service to STL and ORD. Well known for SkyWest losing the bid shockingly, with reasons for extensive delays to ORD and reliability.

https://www.regulations.gov/document/DO ... 14492-0092

Proposal is also out for Cape Girardeau-CGI. Used to see Cape Air service to STL. Now sees UA/SkyWest service to Chicago-ORD. SkyWest has been serving CGI since 2017. Be curious if SkyWest bids again. Cape Air did not bid the last round.

https://www.regulations.gov/document/DO ... -1559-0104

I would guess these will stay with who they are with now, assuming both rebid.

Alex
 
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stl07
Posts: 2775
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:25 pm

I have the same problem with Delta as Jshank. AA for me hits every destination for every occasion. Business- (ORD, NYC, PHL, DCA,DFW, formally and probably soon BOS), leisure- (formally SEA and now again, MIA, LAX) plus as a bonus CLT. Having hubs where people actually go, rather than places like CVG (well that's gone after COVID) and MSP/DTW/SLC is a huge advantage I feel. Sure, I might visit SLC once in the blue moon, but I know for a fact I will be in the Northeast, CA,MIA, and maybe even SEA at least once a year
Instead of typing in "mods", consider using the report function.
Love how every "travel blogger" says they will never fly AA/Ethihad again and then says it again and again on subsequent flights.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 4167
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:04 pm

stl07 wrote:
I have the same problem with Delta as Jshank. AA for me hits every destination for every occasion. Business- (ORD, NYC, PHL, DCA,DFW, formally and probably soon BOS), leisure- (formally SEA and now again, MIA, LAX) plus as a bonus CLT. Having hubs where people actually go, rather than places like CVG (well that's gone after COVID) and MSP/DTW/SLC is a huge advantage I feel. Sure, I might visit SLC once in the blue moon, but I know for a fact I will be in the Northeast, CA,MIA, and maybe even SEA at least once a year


I am pretty open to UA or AA. I don't really have an issue with UA's RJs as long as they have movies/internet (so no E145s/CRJ200s). I am used to using my own device with WN so IFE doesn't matter to me.

I have a bunch of Delta points because of credit cards but I might open one with the others and quit using my Delta one.

Like you my main airports aren't DL ones. I have family in the bay area so SFO is big for me, if AS/AA were to add a bay area airport that would probably push me to AA. DC is another big one for me. I like DCA better but I could manage with IAD. I like that UA (HHH/MYR) and AA (CUN) are adding some vacation spots. We have none with Delta.

I think if we ever get a flight to Europe that alliance would probably be the one I go with.

I am still going to probably fly WN more than anyone just because of the nonstops but it would be nice to have another option with nonstops I use frequently just to change the plane I am on once in awhile and to have a go to international airline.
 
dcaproducer
Posts: 417
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:26 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:30 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
stl07 wrote:
I have the same problem with Delta as Jshank. AA for me hits every destination for every occasion. Business- (ORD, NYC, PHL, DCA,DFW, formally and probably soon BOS), leisure- (formally SEA and now again, MIA, LAX) plus as a bonus CLT. Having hubs where people actually go, rather than places like CVG (well that's gone after COVID) and MSP/DTW/SLC is a huge advantage I feel. Sure, I might visit SLC once in the blue moon, but I know for a fact I will be in the Northeast, CA,MIA, and maybe even SEA at least once a year


I am pretty open to UA or AA. I don't really have an issue with UA's RJs as long as they have movies/internet (so no E145s/CRJ200s). I am used to using my own device with WN so IFE doesn't matter to me.

I have a bunch of Delta points because of credit cards but I might open one with the others and quit using my Delta one.

Like you my main airports aren't DL ones. I have family in the bay area so SFO is big for me, if AS/AA were to add a bay area airport that would probably push me to AA. DC is another big one for me. I like DCA better but I could manage with IAD. I like that UA (HHH/MYR) and AA (CUN) are adding some vacation spots. We have none with Delta.

I think if we ever get a flight to Europe that alliance would probably be the one I go with.

I am still going to probably fly WN more than anyone just because of the nonstops but it would be nice to have another option with nonstops I use frequently just to change the plane I am on once in awhile and to have a go to international airline.


Since I almost always connect, I don’t mind ATL. As long as there aren’t storms, DL is incredibly efficient at turning planes. They are also working quickly to eliminate the CRJ200, which I haven’t been stuck on in years. I like DTW and lived in Ohio when NW was building its terminal. DL’s LAX operation has gotten better, a good as it can be at LAX.

I live near DCA, so going out to IAD is a pain and BWI is no longer the bargain airport. DL fares are pretty good our of DCA, so I stick to it.

I easily re-qualify for Platinum every year and will hit my first million miles next year. This status with DL as well as their small business SkyBonus program have me hooked.

I think DL would do well to add LAX, MCO and maybe AUS from STL.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 4167
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:42 pm

dcaproducer wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
stl07 wrote:
I have the same problem with Delta as Jshank. AA for me hits every destination for every occasion. Business- (ORD, NYC, PHL, DCA,DFW, formally and probably soon BOS), leisure- (formally SEA and now again, MIA, LAX) plus as a bonus CLT. Having hubs where people actually go, rather than places like CVG (well that's gone after COVID) and MSP/DTW/SLC is a huge advantage I feel. Sure, I might visit SLC once in the blue moon, but I know for a fact I will be in the Northeast, CA,MIA, and maybe even SEA at least once a year


I am pretty open to UA or AA. I don't really have an issue with UA's RJs as long as they have movies/internet (so no E145s/CRJ200s). I am used to using my own device with WN so IFE doesn't matter to me.

I have a bunch of Delta points because of credit cards but I might open one with the others and quit using my Delta one.

Like you my main airports aren't DL ones. I have family in the bay area so SFO is big for me, if AS/AA were to add a bay area airport that would probably push me to AA. DC is another big one for me. I like DCA better but I could manage with IAD. I like that UA (HHH/MYR) and AA (CUN) are adding some vacation spots. We have none with Delta.

I think if we ever get a flight to Europe that alliance would probably be the one I go with.

I am still going to probably fly WN more than anyone just because of the nonstops but it would be nice to have another option with nonstops I use frequently just to change the plane I am on once in awhile and to have a go to international airline.


Since I almost always connect, I don’t mind ATL. As long as there aren’t storms, DL is incredibly efficient at turning planes. They are also working quickly to eliminate the CRJ200, which I haven’t been stuck on in years. I like DTW and lived in Ohio when NW was building its terminal. DL’s LAX operation has gotten better, a good as it can be at LAX.

I live near DCA, so going out to IAD is a pain and BWI is no longer the bargain airport. DL fares are pretty good our of DCA, so I stick to it.

I easily re-qualify for Platinum every year and will hit my first million miles next year. This status with DL as well as their small business SkyBonus program have me hooked.

I think DL would do well to add LAX, MCO and maybe AUS from STL.


They had been running STL-MCO on Saturdays in March-Summer. I would have liked to have seen that come back and expanded this year. They should have added Boston a long time ago. They are just too hub centric and missing the boat on some p2p opportunities during covid. AA and UA are taking advantage. They really flubbed AUS in my opinion and now AA is going to get a strong jump start.

It looks like they are going to be up to 21 flights a day in June and bringing back mainlines so at least that is good.
 
Jshank83
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat Apr 17, 2021 4:46 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
United updated their June schedule @flystl

DEN 4x daily
ORD 5x daily
EWR 2x daily
IAH 4x daily
IAD 2x daily
HHH 3x weekly
MYR 3x weekly
SFO still suspended

18 flights a day.
April-14 flights a day
July 2019 - 29 flights a day

Slowly coming back


Delta June

ATL 6x all 737
DTW 4x 2x717 2x CRJ900
MSP 6x 1x737 1x319 4xCRJ900
LGA 3x CRJ900
SLC 3x 2x220 1x175

22 total daily for June
16 daily - April 2020
29 daily - June 2019
 
pmanni1
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Sun Apr 18, 2021 2:34 pm

If anyone can explain AA's pricing strategy I would love to hear it. Booking a 1 way flight STL-ORD for June 11 UA is as low as $159, F9 is as low as $99 and AA is as low as a whopping $1094. By comparison WN to MDW is as low as $79. What is AA thinking to charge 10x what it's competition is charging?
 
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Midwestindy
Posts: 6076
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Sun Apr 18, 2021 2:45 pm

pmanni1 wrote:
If anyone can explain AA's pricing strategy I would love to hear it. Booking a 1 way flight STL-ORD for June 11 UA is as low as $159, F9 is as low as $99 and AA is as low as a whopping $1094. By comparison WN to MDW is as low as $79. What is AA thinking to charge 10x what it's competition is charging?


It's a scheduling quirk, AA loaded its June schedule last night & when the US3 first load their schedules the most expensive fare buckets are loaded first (Refundable first class tickets for example). Anytime UA, DL, or AA update their schedule you'll likely see this up until a day after the schedule is loaded.

Check back on Tuesday and the fares will likely not be anywhere close to that.
ORD & IND

AA & DL
 
pmanni1
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Sun Apr 18, 2021 3:17 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
pmanni1 wrote:
If anyone can explain AA's pricing strategy I would love to hear it. Booking a 1 way flight STL-ORD for June 11 UA is as low as $159, F9 is as low as $99 and AA is as low as a whopping $1094. By comparison WN to MDW is as low as $79. What is AA thinking to charge 10x what it's competition is charging?


It's a scheduling quirk, AA loaded its June schedule last night & when the US3 first load their schedules the most expensive fare buckets are loaded first (Refundable first class tickets for example). Anytime UA, DL, or AA update their schedule you'll likely see this up until a day after the schedule is loaded.

Check back on Tuesday and the fares will likely not be anywhere close to that.

I'm surprised they would even let this show up. Seems like they would lose bookings by anyone wanting to buy a ticket today or tomorrow.
 
atrude777
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Sun Apr 18, 2021 3:19 pm

pmanni1 wrote:
If anyone can explain AA's pricing strategy I would love to hear it. Booking a 1 way flight STL-ORD for June 11 UA is as low as $159, F9 is as low as $99 and AA is as low as a whopping $1094. By comparison WN to MDW is as low as $79. What is AA thinking to charge 10x what it's competition is charging?


Ya keep checking!

I got $155 confirmed on AA in First Class STL ORD for April 23rd booked April 1st. Good Deal!

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Sun Apr 18, 2021 3:31 pm

pmanni1 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
pmanni1 wrote:
If anyone can explain AA's pricing strategy I would love to hear it. Booking a 1 way flight STL-ORD for June 11 UA is as low as $159, F9 is as low as $99 and AA is as low as a whopping $1094. By comparison WN to MDW is as low as $79. What is AA thinking to charge 10x what it's competition is charging?


It's a scheduling quirk, AA loaded its June schedule last night & when the US3 first load their schedules the most expensive fare buckets are loaded first (Refundable first class tickets for example). Anytime UA, DL, or AA update their schedule you'll likely see this up until a day after the schedule is loaded.

Check back on Tuesday and the fares will likely not be anywhere close to that.

I'm surprised they would even let this show up. Seems like they would lose bookings by anyone wanting to buy a ticket today or tomorrow.


True, but weekends are traditionally the slowest booking days, & they do the changes very late/early(depending where you live) so almost no bookings are coming in during that time.

The opposite would be to load in the bottom bucket of fares first, which airlines wouldn't want to do.
ORD & IND

AA & DL
 
maps4ltd
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:56 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
United updated their June schedule @flystl

DEN 4x daily
ORD 5x daily
EWR 2x daily
IAH 4x daily
IAD 2x daily
HHH 3x weekly
MYR 3x weekly
SFO still suspended

18 flights a day.
April-14 flights a day
July 2019 - 29 flights a day

Slowly coming back


Delta June

ATL 6x all 737
DTW 4x 2x717 2x CRJ900
MSP 6x 1x737 1x319 4xCRJ900
LGA 3x CRJ900
SLC 3x 2x220 1x175

22 total daily for June
16 daily - April 2020
29 daily - June 2019


Interesting that ATL remains unchanged (it's currently running at 6) while MSP gets bumped from 3 to 6. That might exceed pre-pandemic frequencies for MSP. Also noteworthy is the reintroduction of the 737 to the ATL route.

Specific fleet type breakdowns (taken for Monday, June 14):
6x ATL is 4x 739, 2x 738 (1040 seats)
6x MSP is 1x 739, 1x, 319, 4xCRJ9 (592 seats)
3x SLC is 2x A221, 1x E175 (294 seats)
Next flights:
Who knows? :/
 
Jshank83
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:45 am

maps4ltd wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
United updated their June schedule @flystl

DEN 4x daily
ORD 5x daily
EWR 2x daily
IAH 4x daily
IAD 2x daily
HHH 3x weekly
MYR 3x weekly
SFO still suspended

18 flights a day.
April-14 flights a day
July 2019 - 29 flights a day

Slowly coming back


Delta June

ATL 6x all 737
DTW 4x 2x717 2x CRJ900
MSP 6x 1x737 1x319 4xCRJ900
LGA 3x CRJ900
SLC 3x 2x220 1x175

22 total daily for June
16 daily - April 2020
29 daily - June 2019


Interesting that ATL remains unchanged (it's currently running at 6) while MSP gets bumped from 3 to 6. That might exceed pre-pandemic frequencies for MSP. Also noteworthy is the reintroduction of the 737 to the ATL route.

Specific fleet type breakdowns (taken for Monday, June 14):
6x ATL is 4x 739, 2x 738 (1040 seats)
6x MSP is 1x 739, 1x, 319, 4xCRJ9 (592 seats)
3x SLC is 2x A221, 1x E175 (294 seats)


June 2021 -June 2019
ATL - 6 - 8
MSP - 6 - 6
SLC - 3 - 3
DTW - 4 - 6
LGA - 3 - 6
CVG - Cut - 2
Total - 22 - 31
 
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symphonicpoet
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:13 am

To get on the legacy carrier discussion bandwagon, I fly almost exclusively international, so the schedules are all about the same to me. Any carrier I take I'm flying to a hub and connecting. (Usually twice, since my most usual destination is Saigon and the only US carrier that even serves Saigon is United and even they don't serve it nonstop from any US airport.) I've been flying DL lately. ATL is fine. DTW is pleasant. Haven't flown through MSP or SLC yet. I used to fly AA and I confess, I do like their ORD hub. (By comparison I think UA's ORD hub quite literally stinks.) But flying through SFO was pleasant enough. I have some points on DL, but how much good they'll do me is anybody's guess.

Now would be the time to jump ship, I suppose, but DL's customer service has really been first rate and so I'm tempted to stick with them. My experiences with UA's customer service were . . . less than stellar. AA was fine, but it's been quite a long while now. I've been flying DL's Premium Select and I just can't see myself going back to basic economy. Wouldn't mind going up, but down just sounds painful. (Particularly on 16 hour flights.) Would love to hear folks thoughts given my . . . perhaps unusual flying patterns.
TW AA MU JL KE DL UA LOF GJS SKW WN VN
STL JFK FRA GVA CDG IAD ORD PVG SGN NRT ICN ATL SFO HKG MDW LGA BNA DTW LHR
L1011 MD82 83 88 B737 738 741 744 762 763 772 773 777 A320 330 350 E175 C700
 
jplatts
Posts: 4389
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:44 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
June 2021 -June 2019
ATL - 6 - 8
MSP - 6 - 6
SLC - 3 - 3
DTW - 4 - 6
LGA - 3 - 6
CVG - Cut - 2
Total - 22 - 31


I had previously mentioned WN adding STL-CVG nonstop service as a possibility due to
(a) CVG being one of the top destinations without nonstop service from STL,
(b) the significant cuts that AA, UA, and WN have made on both STL-CHI and CHI-CVG nonstop service during the pandemic,
(c) fewer connecting options between STL and CVG than was the case prior to the COVID-19 pandemic,
(d) approximately 29% of the passengers traveling between STL and CVG connecting on airlines other than DL in 2019, and
(e) STL-CVG having higher PDEW's than STL-DSM/LIT/TUL/ICT prior to the COVID-19 pandemic.

WN would also probably be able to more easily fill STL-CVG nonstop flights than DL could due to
(a) WN likely to charge lower fares than DL did on the STL-CVG route,
(b) WN having a significant FF base in the STL market,
(c) the connecting opportunities that are there at STL on WN, and
(d) load factors being higher on WN STL-DSM/LIT/TUL/ICT nonstop flights than on DL STL-CVG nonstop flights in 2019 due to the significant amount of connecting traffic that WN had on its STL-DSM/LIT/TUL/ICT nonstop flights.

WN still has an advantage over DL in the STL market due to DL not serving its BOS, LAX, and SEA hubs nonstop from STL whereas WN currently has nonstop service to BOS and LAX from STL and WN has plans to resume STL-SEA nonstop service.

DL adding STL-BOS/LAX/SEA nonstop service are possibilities once demand recovers due to DL having nonstop service to BOS, LAX, and SEA from Midwestern cities other than DTW and MSP.
 
dcaproducer
Posts: 417
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:26 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:29 pm

symphonicpoet wrote:
To get on the legacy carrier discussion bandwagon, I fly almost exclusively international, so the schedules are all about the same to me. Any carrier I take I'm flying to a hub and connecting. (Usually twice, since my most usual destination is Saigon and the only US carrier that even serves Saigon is United and even they don't serve it nonstop from any US airport.) I've been flying DL lately. ATL is fine. DTW is pleasant. Haven't flown through MSP or SLC yet. I used to fly AA and I confess, I do like their ORD hub. (By comparison I think UA's ORD hub quite literally stinks.) But flying through SFO was pleasant enough. I have some points on DL, but how much good they'll do me is anybody's guess.

Now would be the time to jump ship, I suppose, but DL's customer service has really been first rate and so I'm tempted to stick with them. My experiences with UA's customer service were . . . less than stellar. AA was fine, but it's been quite a long while now. I've been flying DL's Premium Select and I just can't see myself going back to basic economy. Wouldn't mind going up, but down just sounds painful. (Particularly on 16 hour flights.) Would love to hear folks thoughts given my . . . perhaps unusual flying patterns.


You should try DL through SEA. The SkyClub in A is excellent.

When I switched from mostly flying AA to DL the difference in customer service was astounding. DL, in my experience, is pretty good and making things right if something goes wrong, which is rare. I've gotten spoiled with DeltaOne, so any long haul across an ocean I typically pay or upgrade with miles up front, but the Premium Select product is very nice as well.

If DL wants to grow in STL I think they have some opportunity, but right now they're very much in hub-and-spoke mode. I think this will ease a bit as travel returns.

By the way I haven't seen T2 at STL lately, but I'm guessing it's busy. I flew on DL through DTW last week and I've never seen the MacNamarra terminal so empty. Most of the retail was closed and only a few restaurants were open. Everything appeared to be heavily banked. I saw virtually no planes at B/C.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 4167
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon Apr 19, 2021 4:39 pm

G4 pushed their schedule thru mid December.

It also upgraded PGD to daily for most of June. This is only the 2nd route to ever be daily from BLV.
 
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TWA302
Posts: 940
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:55 pm

The airport posted a one-sheeter from their survey for the Airport Layout Plan.

https://www.flystl.com/uploads/documents/stl-airport-layout-plan/STL-Airport-Update04082021v6.pdf

Interesting that 52% prefered a single terminal.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 4167
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:09 pm

TWA302 wrote:
The airport posted a one-sheeter from their survey for the Airport Layout Plan.

https://www.flystl.com/uploads/documents/stl-airport-layout-plan/STL-Airport-Update04082021v6.pdf

Interesting that 52% prefered a single terminal.


Longer form results

https://www.flystl.com/uploads/document ... Update.pdf



Also results from first survey

https://www.flystl.com/uploads/document ... Report.pdf
 
jplatts
Posts: 4389
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Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:01 pm

umichman wrote:
pmanni1 wrote:
STL's facebook page said that WN will be flying to all 55 destinations during the month of June. That means the suspended routes are all coming back and hopefully they'll stick.


There may be some that come back in June, but it probably won't be all of them. Like the other airlines, WN has been loading placeholder schedules in the future (since Covid began) which ultimately end up getting reduced as they get closer to the beginning of the month. Currently, WN placeholder begins June 6th, DL begins June 5th, AA/UA begins June 3rd, and AS begins June 17th.


While I probably would expect WN to make some cuts at STL in its Summer 2021 schedule, I would likely expect WN to resume STL-DTW/MSP/OAK/PDX/SEA nonstop service in Summer 2021 as the average load factors of WN's STL-DTW/MSP/OAK/PDX/SEA routes were higher than the station average for STL on WN in Summer 2020.

Here were the load factors of WN STL-MSP/OAK/PDX/SEA in the June 2020 - August 2020 time period:
STL station average load factor on WN - 42.55%
DTW-STL - 43.42%
MSP-STL - 46.35%
OAK-STL - 51.02%
PDX-STL - 51.33%
SEA-STL - 54.80%

The resumption of WN STL-DTW/MSP/OAK/PDX/SEA nonstop service will also help boost load factors on other WN nonstop routes out of STL with the connecting traffic that WN would be getting on these flights.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 4167
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:05 pm

jplatts wrote:
umichman wrote:
pmanni1 wrote:
STL's facebook page said that WN will be flying to all 55 destinations during the month of June. That means the suspended routes are all coming back and hopefully they'll stick.


There may be some that come back in June, but it probably won't be all of them. Like the other airlines, WN has been loading placeholder schedules in the future (since Covid began) which ultimately end up getting reduced as they get closer to the beginning of the month. Currently, WN placeholder begins June 6th, DL begins June 5th, AA/UA begins June 3rd, and AS begins June 17th.


While I probably would expect WN to make some cuts at STL in its Summer 2021 schedule, I would likely expect WN to resume STL-DTW/MSP/OAK/PDX/SEA nonstop service in Summer 2021 as the average load factors of WN's STL-DTW/MSP/OAK/PDX/SEA routes were higher than the station average for STL on WN in Summer 2020.

Here were the load factors of WN STL-MSP/OAK/PDX/SEA in the June 2020 - August 2020 time period:
STL station average load factor on WN - 42.55%
DTW-STL - 43.42%
MSP-STL - 46.35%
OAK-STL - 51.02%
PDX-STL - 51.33%
SEA-STL - 54.80%

The resumption of WN STL-DTW/MSP/OAK/PDX/SEA nonstop service will also help boost load factors on other WN nonstop routes out of STL with the connecting traffic that WN would be getting on these flights.


OAK/SEA already are going to be resumed next month.
 
User avatar
TWA302
Posts: 940
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 12:17 am

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:12 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
TWA302 wrote:
The airport posted a one-sheeter from their survey for the Airport Layout Plan.

https://www.flystl.com/uploads/documents/stl-airport-layout-plan/STL-Airport-Update04082021v6.pdf

Interesting that 52% prefered a single terminal.


Longer form results

https://www.flystl.com/uploads/document ... Update.pdf



Also results from first survey

https://www.flystl.com/uploads/document ... Report.pdf


Funny that 10% of the respondents in the second survey don't use Lambert. :? I also think that the use of "no opinion" in the survey for many of the questions wasn't a good idea.
 
User avatar
symphonicpoet
Posts: 67
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:57 am

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:42 am

TWA302 wrote:
Funny that 10% of the respondents in the second survey don't use Lambert. :? I also think that the use of "no opinion" in the survey for many of the questions wasn't a good idea.


It's surprising to see 10% of the people that care enough about Lambert to finish the survey implying (accurately or otherwise) that they don't use Lambert. But I honestly wouldn't be surprised if even more people than that metro-wide have never flown through Lambert. Just due to convenience and car culture I wouldn't be at all surprised if we have a larger than usual percentage of car only leisure travelers. (Being in the middle has its advantages . . . and disadvantages.) I love planes and I love the airport, but I really only fly if I'm leaving the country. (Which I like to do and certain of my forbears did habitually and constantly and I have an image to live up to there.) Sure, I'm an odd job, but maybe not that odd. It could be legit.

As to the "no opinion" business, it does at least seem honest. I don't have a particularly strong opinion on the one vs. two terminal issue, and so I would be inclined to defer to the airlines on that one. (I think I might well have selected no opinion there. Can't quite recall.)

. . . Also, why were there no questions about the piano? Before they locked the darned piano down I periodically went out just to play the piano at innocent passers by. (And paid for parking and bought coffee for the privilege. Okay, I may also have been taking plane pictures at least sometimes when there. But I made sure I gave STL revenue each and every time. I pay my way.) Open the piano back up folks! Play at your own risk. We can sanitize! :)

Anyway, it will be interesting to see what they do with that information.
TW AA MU JL KE DL UA LOF GJS SKW WN VN
STL JFK FRA GVA CDG IAD ORD PVG SGN NRT ICN ATL SFO HKG MDW LGA BNA DTW LHR
L1011 MD82 83 88 B737 738 741 744 762 763 772 773 777 A320 330 350 E175 C700
 
maps4ltd
Posts: 896
Joined: Tue May 08, 2018 4:48 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:05 pm

Next flights:
Who knows? :/
 
Jshank83
Posts: 4167
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:11 pm

maps4ltd wrote:
http://otp.investis.com/clients/us/jetblue_airways/usn/usnews-story.aspx?cid=981&newsid=74365

BOS-STL on American.


About time someone else adds it. AA actually starting to make a decent play here.
 
BHMNONREV
Posts: 1248
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 9:17 am

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:23 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
maps4ltd wrote:
http://otp.investis.com/clients/us/jetblue_airways/usn/usnews-story.aspx?cid=981&newsid=74365

BOS-STL on American.


About time someone else adds it. AA actually starting to make a decent play here.


Agreed, I believe BOS-STL on a legacy was long overdue. Although I suspected DL would pull the trigger before AA..
 
pmanni1
Posts: 340
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:17 am

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:27 pm

BHMNONREV wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
maps4ltd wrote:
http://otp.investis.com/clients/us/jetblue_airways/usn/usnews-story.aspx?cid=981&newsid=74365

BOS-STL on American.


About time someone else adds it. AA actually starting to make a decent play here.


Agreed, I believe BOS-STL on a legacy was long overdue. Although I suspected DL would pull the trigger before AA..

STL was on the short list for B6 but now it's not. Make me wonder if AA will also add JFK.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 4167
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: St. Louis Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:35 pm

pmanni1 wrote:
BHMNONREV wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:

About time someone else adds it. AA actually starting to make a decent play here.


Agreed, I believe BOS-STL on a legacy was long overdue. Although I suspected DL would pull the trigger before AA..

STL was on the short list for B6 but now it's not. Make me wonder if AA will also add JFK.


I know people love JetBlue but I would personally have everything on the same airline, especially if they will do mainline like AA is on BOS.

11 destinations now for AA , plus AS to SEA makes 12 OneWorld. If AA/AS adds a few more west coast and AA/partner adds JFK/Europe we would have a really nice Oneworld route map going on.


Delta is about dead to me at this point. They had their chances and are just letting everyone else pick up any slack left.

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