Jshank83 wrote:

pmanni1 wrote:

A couple of observations: AA has added an A321 to ORD most mornings in Oct. I've never seen that on that route by any carrier. Also, with CMH,DTW & MSP coming back in Sep for Sundays that leaves SFO as the only suspended route that hasn't come back yet. That's a strange one considering LAX has 3 carriers on it and much smaller airports like LGB,SNA,SJC all have service.

F9 runs an A321 2x a week on ORD. But I’m sure you were only referring to AA/UA.

BDL isn’t back.
Technically IND/PBI/PUJ also. But obviously PBI and PUJ wouldn’t come back til March or summer and IND had a short run.

IND,BDL,PBI,PUJ are all gone from WN's STL destination list so I assume they are permanent cuts. SFO is still listed as a destination but the start date keeps getting pushed back.
I don't recall AA sending an A321 to STL ever.

pmanni1 wrote:

Jshank83 wrote:

pmanni1 wrote:

A couple of observations: AA has added an A321 to ORD most mornings in Oct. I've never seen that on that route by any carrier. Also, with CMH,DTW & MSP coming back in Sep for Sundays that leaves SFO as the only suspended route that hasn't come back yet. That's a strange one considering LAX has 3 carriers on it and much smaller airports like LGB,SNA,SJC all have service.

F9 runs an A321 2x a week on ORD. But I’m sure you were only referring to AA/UA.

BDL isn’t back.
Technically IND/PBI/PUJ also. But obviously PBI and PUJ wouldn’t come back til March or summer and IND had a short run.

IND,BDL,PBI,PUJ are all gone from WN's STL destination list so I assume they are permanent cuts. SFO is still listed as a destination but the start date keeps getting pushed back.
I don't recall AA sending an A321 to STL ever.

I don’t believe they are permanent cuts. Especially BDL. SFO is only on the destination list because it’s running around the holidays. Flights only show up on the destination list of they are currently in the schedule. So once summer flights drop off they will also fall off the destination list until the schedule is extended thru next summer.

pmanni1 wrote:

Jshank83 wrote:

pmanni1 wrote:

A couple of observations: AA has added an A321 to ORD most mornings in Oct. I've never seen that on that route by any carrier. Also, with CMH,DTW & MSP coming back in Sep for Sundays that leaves SFO as the only suspended route that hasn't come back yet. That's a strange one considering LAX has 3 carriers on it and much smaller airports like LGB,SNA,SJC all have service.

F9 runs an A321 2x a week on ORD. But I’m sure you were only referring to AA/UA.

BDL isn’t back.
Technically IND/PBI/PUJ also. But obviously PBI and PUJ wouldn’t come back til March or summer and IND had a short run.

IND,BDL,PBI,PUJ are all gone from WN's STL destination list so I assume they are permanent cuts. SFO is still listed as a destination but the start date keeps getting pushed back.
I don't recall AA sending an A321 to STL ever.

There have been times this past year where an A321 was scheduled on STL-CLT. A321s frequently sub in on STL-PHX/ORD/DFW/CLT, with STL-PHX seeing an equipment swap to the A321neo a few days back.

TWA302 wrote:

BHMNONREV wrote:

OzarkD9S wrote:

That may have been from the infamous "Dock J" which handled some "different" arrivals. I remember a few MAC charters from there as well, before D and T2 opened up.

Correct on both accounts. Most likely transported to the aircraft on a mobile lounge ala Dulles from the International Transport Wing I believe they called it, where the low D gates currently sit..

Apparently BCal did postcards


I am trying to find some photos of the mobile lounges in action. I have some of them just siting, but would be cool to see them up to the planes.

I have a black and white picture from a book, D10 surround by all the GSE. I’ll post it as soon as I find the book.

Found a few cool pics


A concourse construction

[photoid]Pair of DC-9s at STL by Craig Sanders, on Flickr[/photoid]


Mobile lounge
[photoid]How You Once Boarded in STL by Craig Sanders, on Flickr[/photoid]

Looking at this, must have been C concourse steel going up. Man I don't remember the old structure being that shotty
[photoid]TWA Fleet by Craig Sanders, on Flickr[/photoid]

Blv didn’t get the small community grant for allegiant help. I’m not sure it makes a huge difference.

Jshank83 wrote:

Blv didn’t get the small community grant for allegiant help. I’m not sure it makes a huge difference.

Can you point to who did? Would like to see. Thanks!

Awesome, Awesome photos! Cool to see the historic evolution of STL. If you have more, would love to see it!

TWA302 wrote:

Found a few cool pics


A concourse construction

[photoid]Pair of DC-9s at STL by Craig Sanders, on Flickr[/photoid]


Mobile lounge
[photoid]How You Once Boarded in STL by Craig Sanders, on Flickr[/photoid]

Looking at this, must have been C concourse steel going up. Man I don't remember the old structure being that shotty
[photoid]TWA Fleet by Craig Sanders, on Flickr[/photoid]

TWA302 wrote:

Jshank83 wrote:

Blv didn’t get the small community grant for allegiant help. I’m not sure it makes a huge difference.

Can you point to who did? Would like to see. Thanks!

I posted in this thread.

Springfield Mo got on for service to DCA.

viewtopic.php?p=22891313#p22891313

TWA302 wrote:

Found a few cool pics


A concourse construction

[photoid]Pair of DC-9s at STL by Craig Sanders, on Flickr[/photoid]


Mobile lounge
[photoid]How You Once Boarded in STL by Craig Sanders, on Flickr[/photoid]

Looking at this, must have been C concourse steel going up. Man I don't remember the old structure being that shotty
[photoid]TWA Fleet by Craig Sanders, on Flickr[/photoid]

Awesome photos, thanks! Brings back so many memories of my youth at Lambert..

Those photos are from the late 76/early 77 timeframe IIRC, A was completed first, then B and C with the C extension starting in 82 completed in 83 sometime.

And you are absolutely right about the shoddy state of the ground level concourses, by the time the second levels went over the concourses they had outlived their usefulness by 10-15 years. During the mid 70's Lambert was an utter embarrassment save for the terminal building itself. Leaky roofs, broken glass at the sliding doors from the gates to the ramp, etc..

jmy007 wrote:

Awesome, Awesome photos! Cool to see the historic evolution of STL. If you have more, would love to see it!

TWA302 wrote:

Found a few cool pics


A concourse construction

[photoid]Pair of DC-9s at STL by Craig Sanders, on Flickr[/photoid]


Mobile lounge
[photoid]How You Once Boarded in STL by Craig Sanders, on Flickr[/photoid]

Looking at this, must have been C concourse steel going up. Man I don't remember the old structure being that shotty
[photoid]TWA Fleet by Craig Sanders, on Flickr[/photoid]

The are not mine. Credits are there. Found them on Flickr

June numbers are out.

Over a million passengers in June. Thats a big milestone.

Up 182% over June 2020
Down 28% vs June 2019

Cargo up 39%!

https://www.flystl.com/uploads/document ... t-June.pdf

If STL can average 75% of 2019 the rest of the way they would end the year with 10.2 mil passengers. Getting back over 10 would be a nice goal for the year.

Since we're on the subject of historic Lambert photos, here's a few I found in my grandfather's collection from 1957 and 1960. The first several photos are all from the same visit in 1957. The night shot of the front of the terminal is from 1959. The final photo, with the TWA 707, is from 1960.











One small bonus that's . . . not really terribly closely related to St. Louis. Just a neat old aircraft I can't help sharing: A DC-8 in Amsterdam in . . . 1980? Ish? (Even if the photo is from Schiphol, the trip started and ended in St. Louis.)

^ I wish they'd bring back a viewing deck on top of Concourse C (or even B) like that. Could make it like Haneda's observation deck.

symphonicpoet wrote:

Since we're on the subject of historic Lambert photos, here's a few I found in my grandfather's collection from 1957 and 1960. The first several photos are all from the same visit in 1957. The night shot of the front of the terminal is from 1959. The final photo, with the TWA 707, is from 1960.

Those are really good photos! Should probably submit them to the database here. I would love to have an observation deck back.

F9 starting STL-MIA. Looks to be Nov 1 3x a week

Jshank83 wrote:

F9 starting STL-MIA. Looks to be Nov 1 3x a week

STL-MIA LV 5:00P AR 8:49P
MIA-STL LV 2:05P AR 4:12P

Both are A320

Looks like NK is still dealing with their "operational challenges" today. Friend was using them for the first time to go to FLL. Not today my friend, not today. Of the four scheduled, only PNS hasn't been cancelled. You'd think that the head of flight ops has to be stepping down soon. What a train wreck.

TWA302 wrote:

Looks like NK is still dealing with their "operational challenges" today. Friend was using them for the first time to go to FLL. Not today my friend, not today. Of the four scheduled, only PNS hasn't been cancelled. You'd think that the head of flight ops has to be stepping down soon. What a train wreck.

There should have been 5 today but yes just the one is still scheduled to run.

It is one thing for there to be one day of this but stacking multiple days on top of each other is going to really hurt them trying to make inroads here. If I am Frontier I would be reaching out to anyone going to MCO/LAS and giving them a decent deal to get some goodwill.

Anybody else notice that the new Boutique flights have awful reliability?

Looking at MKL-STL (4B733), Flightstats shows that it's on time 30%, late 40%, and cancelled 30% of the time. Right now, for instance, it's enroute to STL six hours late.

I wonder if this kind of operation will cause Jackson to look to a new carrier next time they bid.

maps4ltd wrote:

Anybody else notice that the new Boutique flights have awful reliability?

Looking at MKL-STL (4B733), Flightstats shows that it's on time 30%, late 40%, and cancelled 30% of the time. Right now, for instance, it's enroute to STL six hours late.

I wonder if this kind of operation will cause Jackson to look to a new carrier next time they bid.

Boutique seems on a downward spiral at the moment. Looks like they already lost GLH to LF. AEAS grant has been announced and contract is being negotiated.

Who would replace them at MKL? 9K, LF, OO? And would any of these keep the current ATL/STL schedule, or try something else? OO would almost certainly propose ORD instead.

BangersAndMash wrote:

maps4ltd wrote:

Anybody else notice that the new Boutique flights have awful reliability?

Looking at MKL-STL (4B733), Flightstats shows that it's on time 30%, late 40%, and cancelled 30% of the time. Right now, for instance, it's enroute to STL six hours late.

I wonder if this kind of operation will cause Jackson to look to a new carrier next time they bid.

Boutique seems on a downward spiral at the moment. Looks like they already lost GLH to LF. AEAS grant has been announced and contract is being negotiated.

Who would replace them at MKL? 9K, LF, OO? And would any of these keep the current ATL/STL schedule, or try something else? OO would almost certainly propose ORD instead.

A return to 3E (Air Choice One) is also a possibility, though with only two routes currently I have my doubts about their future. I would be happy if Cape picked it up.

3 of 5 NK departures canceled tomorrow already.

Jshank83 wrote:

3 of 5 NK departures canceled tomorrow already.

Getting better

TWA302 wrote:

Jshank83 wrote:

3 of 5 NK departures canceled tomorrow already.

Getting better

Looks like everything might be canceled for today now. STL-FLL for some reason shows 2 flights with the same info but one says canceled and one says on time...

Something tells me the recovery here is going to be extremely ugly...along the lines of just axe everything for say the next two weeks and start again at 6 a.m. some morning in the future once you get planes and crews repositioned, rescheduled, etc. etc.

maps4ltd wrote:

BangersAndMash wrote:

maps4ltd wrote:

Anybody else notice that the new Boutique flights have awful reliability?

Looking at MKL-STL (4B733), Flightstats shows that it's on time 30%, late 40%, and cancelled 30% of the time. Right now, for instance, it's enroute to STL six hours late.

I wonder if this kind of operation will cause Jackson to look to a new carrier next time they bid.

Boutique seems on a downward spiral at the moment. Looks like they already lost GLH to LF. AEAS grant has been announced and contract is being negotiated.

Who would replace them at MKL? 9K, LF, OO? And would any of these keep the current ATL/STL schedule, or try something else? OO would almost certainly propose ORD instead.

A return to 3E (Air Choice One) is also a possibility, though with only two routes currently I have my doubts about their future. I would be happy if Cape picked it up.

Forgotten about them. Haven't they lost all their EAS routes out of STL relatively recently? They were flying MKL before Boutique, were they not? And IRK? Lost that one to 9K.

They're the ones that don't partner with any of the US3, I believe. I'm wondering how much that hurts them, not being able to draw on connections.

Just looked at an F9 route map from 2013 and it had STL to LIR in Costa Rica on it. Interesting

stl07 wrote:

Just looked at an F9 route map from 2013 and it had STL to LIR in Costa Rica on it. Interesting

I think that was a charter for Apple.

Airport commission meeting updates.

Admirals club opening pushed to end of month

Passengers thru security July 2021 is 84% vs 2019

Cargo way up.

Trying to get more restaurants reopened.

Updating airlines on airport layout plan next week.

Spirit supposedly said they would be mostly fixed by tomorrow....

Jshank83 wrote:

Airport commission meeting updates.

Admirals club opening pushed to end of month

Passengers thru security July 2021 is 84% vs 2019

Cargo way up.

Trying to get more restaurants reopened.

Updating airlines on airport layout plan next week.

Spirit supposedly said they would be mostly fixed by tomorrow....

Flew DL in/ out of STL this week for work. DCA-ATL-STL-ATL-DCA. A couple of observations, I fly DCA-ATL-DCA a lot. It’s an elite heavy route. But nothing like my ATL-STL segment. Upgrade list was at 69. No upgrades at the gate. Full 739. This was the midday arrival Monday. Today, flying out on the 12:55ish flight, completely full. Upgrade list over 40. Mondays upgrade list was the longest I’ve seen in a long time and I’ve been through ATL, SEA, DTW, LAX, JFK on DL this year.

A concourse security was the slowest TSA checkpoint I’ve ever experienced. I have PreCheck, but they just give you a card and send you through one side. I saw people use 5 bins to offload their stuff. On top of that, the employees viewing the X-ray images would hold each back and spend a good minute looking it over. Again, I’m DCA based and I’ve never seen anything like it. Good on them for being thorough, but wow. I would not want to be there if it was any busier.

Vino Volo, Mike Shanon’s , Brew House and Starbucks were open. The pizza place and burger place both had signs to submit a job application, but were closed. Dunkin was also open. Concourse was busy, even down at the UA gates. All Air Canada signage is gone, even their logo that I swear used to be on the wall.

dcaproducer wrote:

Jshank83 wrote:

Airport commission meeting updates.

Admirals club opening pushed to end of month

Passengers thru security July 2021 is 84% vs 2019

Cargo way up.

Trying to get more restaurants reopened.

Updating airlines on airport layout plan next week.

Spirit supposedly said they would be mostly fixed by tomorrow....

Flew DL in/ out of STL this week for work. DCA-ATL-STL-ATL-DCA. A couple of observations, I fly DCA-ATL-DCA a lot. It’s an elite heavy route. But nothing like my ATL-STL segment. Upgrade list was at 69. No upgrades at the gate. Full 739. This was the midday arrival Monday. Today, flying out on the 12:55ish flight, completely full. Upgrade list over 40. Mondays upgrade list was the longest I’ve seen in a long time and I’ve been through ATL, SEA, DTW, LAX, JFK on DL this year.

A concourse security was the slowest TSA checkpoint I’ve ever experienced. I have PreCheck, but they just give you a card and send you through one side. I saw people use 5 bins to offload their stuff. On top of that, the employees viewing the X-ray images would hold each back and spend a good minute looking it over. Again, I’m DCA based and I’ve never seen anything like it. Good on them for being thorough, but wow. I would not want to be there if it was any busier.

Vino Volo, Mike Shanon’s , Brew House and Starbucks were open. The pizza place and burger place both had signs to submit a job application, but were closed. Dunkin was also open. Concourse was busy, even down at the UA gates. All Air Canada signage is gone, even their logo that I swear used to be on the wall.

Air Canada’s lease came up in March-ish and they didn’t renew. Can’t blame them for waiting until they start flights back up to renew it.

Jshank83 wrote:

Air Canada’s lease came up in March-ish and they didn’t renew. Can’t blame them for waiting until they start flights back up to renew it.

Makes sense.

Oh, and not airport related, but I stayed at Live! At BPV. Hotel is understaffed. Parking was a nightmare. I did self park. Room key would open the gate off of Clark, but the garage gate didn’t work. I’d have to hit the assistance button and wait for someone to come open it. This was a huge problem yesterday before the Cards game between hotel guests trying to park and people coming in for the game. Front desk acknowledged this has been an issue with the parking company managing the garage for the office building. Room itself was ok, a bit small. Restaurant was mediocre. Bourbon lounge was interesting, but their menu was way out of date and the manage apologized that many bottles were out of stock. They printed it when the hotel opened, but have never updated the spirits list.

August Frequency update

Flights per week based on week of August 16
August 2021 (July 2021) August 2019 (%vs Aug 2019)
WN 573 (567) 792 (-27.6%)
AA 216 (207) 267 (-19%)
DL 145 (149) 203 (-28.5%)
UA 145 (135) 201 (-27.8%)
F9 36 (44) 31 (+16%)
NK 35 (35) XX
G4 19 (45) 13 (+46%)
AS 14 (14) 21 (-33%)
SY 2 (2) 6 (-67%)

Total STL 1286 (1273) 1707 (-24.6)

Seats based on Monday (vs July 2021) vs August 2019
AA 3464 (+9.7%) -21%
DL 2608 (+2.4% )-22%
UA 1388 (+4%) -29%


Notes:

DL and UA have the same amount of flights but DL has almost twice as many seats... speaks to one using mainline and one not.
F9 - ORD/PUJ drops off for the season. ORD is on the schedule next year, for now. PUJ comes back in November.
G4 - JAX/SAV/CHS/MYR drop off for the season. CHS takes a break until October.

Full spreadsheet
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

TWA302 wrote:

stl07 wrote:

Just looked at an F9 route map from 2013 and it had STL to LIR in Costa Rica on it. Interesting

I think that was a charter for Apple.

Correct. As and after U5 (USA3000) went under, F9 picked up a lot of the Midwest-Caribbean Apple flying. As it was toward the end on U5, some or all of those may have been sold to the public also.

Cubsrule wrote:

TWA302 wrote:

stl07 wrote:

Just looked at an F9 route map from 2013 and it had STL to LIR in Costa Rica on it. Interesting

I think that was a charter for Apple.

Correct. As and after U5 (USA3000) went under, F9 picked up a lot of the Midwest-Caribbean Apple flying. As it was toward the end on U5, some or all of those may have been sold to the public also.

I really liked U5 charter services. Used them often. I also find it odd that even though they went under nearly a decade ago, their website is still active! https://www.usa3000.com/

Day five of the Spirit dumpster fire. The only cancelled thus far is PNS. LAX left and LAS and FLL are still showing good.

TWA302 wrote:

Day five of the Spirit dumpster fire. The only cancelled thus far is PNS. LAX left and LAS and FLL are still showing good.

Mco was canned this morning also but They have 2 planes on the ground here now. Was 3 before the last one took off so that’s a good sign.

Good news. 3 of 5 ran today.

Bad news

I am super confused. 4 of 5 Spirit flights already canceled tomorrow.

2 spirit planes are on the ground here. One was supposed to run the first flight out but it’s one of the canceled flights.

Jshank83 wrote:

Good news. 3 of 5 ran today.

Bad news

I am super confused. 4 of 5 Spirit flights already canceled tomorrow.

2 spirit planes are on the ground here. One was supposed to run the first flight out but it’s one of the canceled flights.

Day 2 of them just sitting there. There had to be a crew to get them here. Where is the crew?

pmanni1 wrote:

Jshank83 wrote:

Good news. 3 of 5 ran today.

Bad news

I am super confused. 4 of 5 Spirit flights already canceled tomorrow.

2 spirit planes are on the ground here. One was supposed to run the first flight out but it’s one of the canceled flights.

Day 2 of them just sitting there. There had to be a crew to get them here. Where is the crew?

Do you think they did the Ferris Wheel at Union station first today or hit up the zoo?

Jshank83 wrote:

pmanni1 wrote:

Jshank83 wrote:

Good news. 3 of 5 ran today.

Bad news

I am super confused. 4 of 5 Spirit flights already canceled tomorrow.

2 spirit planes are on the ground here. One was supposed to run the first flight out but it’s one of the canceled flights.

Day 2 of them just sitting there. There had to be a crew to get them here. Where is the crew?

Do you think they did the Ferris Wheel at Union station first today or hit up the zoo?

Just saw some at the boat house. So I assume they are headed to the Zoo an then catch The Sound of Music tonight at The Muny

The Spirit debacle is truly insane - and absolutely delicious at the same time.

Will be interesting to see if they're to pull off the full schedule they've announced for the fall.

stlgph wrote:

The Spirit debacle is truly insane - and absolutely delicious at the same time.

Will be interesting to see if they're to pull off the full schedule they've announced for the fall.

It will be a textbook case study of how NOT to grow your airline business I can't even begin to imagine the poor employees trying to untangle this mess for the customers. They must go home at night and just crash.

Agreed. Spirit had gone to great lengths to really become a strong, formidable carrier and a major player in the industry. Ultimately, this, too, shall pass, lessons will be learned and they'll move onward and upward.

TWA302 wrote:

They must go home at night and just crash.

...or drink.

stlgph wrote:

Agreed. Spirit had gone to great lengths to really become a strong, formidable carrier and a major player in the industry. Ultimately, this, too, shall pass, lessons will be learned and they'll move onward and upward.

The $19 fares will bring them back like buzzards on a gut wagon in no time. I have no doubt.

NK will eventually get out from under this mess. In August 2016 I was traveling to Frankfurt the day Delta’s entire IT infrastructure went down. They cancelled over 1000 flights, it took days to recover. I was lucky enough to get a flight to DTW for my international connection, but my bags didn’t make it to Germany for three days. To Delta’s credit they gave me and my companion each $1000 in vouchers. They also paid $150/pp per day for clothing and refunded my 120k SkyMiles that I spent on the D1 ticket.

I’m sure NK will make it up by giving folks a 10% discount on a checked bag on their next flight, some exclusions apply.

Just read this little piece of goodness.

August 6, 1927 - Albert Bond Lambert offered to sell the 169-acre St. Louis Flying Field to the city for $60,000. That amount was his cost for the land alone. The aviation booster had graded, drained and developed the field at his own expense. While the city waited for the results of a referendum to secure the field, Lambert leased it to the city for 15 months for $1.00.

Because I have too much time on my hands.

Departures for Spirit
X= cancel
O = Flew
Sat Sun M Tues W Th F Sat
MCO - X O O X X X X X 2/8
LAX - O O X X X O X X 3/8
PNS - X O X O X X O ? 3/7
LAS - X X X X X O X ? 1/7
FLL - X O X X X O X X 2/8

Total 11/38 29%