Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
mileduets
Posts: 76
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2020 5:45 pm

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu May 06, 2021 1:55 pm

Blerg wrote:
What long-haul routes might be cut/reduced with the newly announced fleet reductions?


In an interview with the cabin crew union representative an Edelweiss A-340 was mentioned being transferred to Eurowings. That would account for one of the 5 cuts. I suspect the rest of the A-340 fleet could account for the remaining 4.
 
hoons90
Posts: 3873
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2001 10:15 pm

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu May 06, 2021 1:57 pm

I'm guessing the 2nd daily BOS and ORD frequencies won't be returning for a while. I wouldn't be surprised if KIX and IAD get cut too, those are the most recent adds before COVID.
 
DALCE
Posts: 2033
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 7:45 pm

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu May 06, 2021 2:04 pm

mileduets wrote:
Blerg wrote:
What long-haul routes might be cut/reduced with the newly announced fleet reductions?


In an interview with the cabin crew union representative an Edelweiss A-340 was mentioned being transferred to Eurowings. That would account for one of the 5 cuts. I suspect the rest of the A-340 fleet could account for the remaining 4.


What has the Edelweiss fleet to do with reductions at SWISS?
It will most probably be the oldest 320/321's + 5x A330 which will leave the fleet. The 340's have much needed range which the 330's don't have.
 
mileduets
Posts: 76
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2020 5:45 pm

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu May 06, 2021 2:37 pm

DALCE wrote:
What has the Edelweiss fleet to do with reductions at SWISS?


Fleet commonality - Swiss is the parent company of Edelweiss. There are 5 A-340 left, Swiss intends to reduce the long haul fleet by 5. Go figure.
 
SRGVA67
Posts: 44
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2019 9:12 am

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu May 06, 2021 3:19 pm

Blerg wrote:
What long-haul routes might be cut/reduced with the newly announced fleet reductions?

I would expect that longhaul traffic will be redistributed between the 5 LH group hubs and it remains to be seen what's left for ZRH. I remember reading in an interview with the previous LX CEO that only 5 l/h routes out of ZRH would be viable without feeding by the STAR alliance group. Maybe LX will keep these 5 longhaul routes ( I don't know which ones these are ) and all other ones could be up for redistribution among the 5 LH group hubs. If feeding is the only way to make a longhaul flight viable, it can easily be operated out of MUC, FRA or even VIE and BRU. Ok, this is the worst case scenario and I'm sure it won't come to that, but as all LH group hubs will be struggling for some time to come, I could easuily see LH to prioritise FRA and MUC.
One route I expect to go and not come back for a long time will be GVA/JFK, probably substitued with a code share on UA should they return to GVA.
 
DALCE
Posts: 2033
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 7:45 pm

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu May 06, 2021 3:28 pm

mileduets wrote:
DALCE wrote:
What has the Edelweiss fleet to do with reductions at SWISS?


Fleet commonality - Swiss is the parent company of Edelweiss. There are 5 A-340 left, Swiss intends to reduce the long haul fleet by 5. Go figure.


Yes, and they have a different entity and the MB of SWISS will not declare anything on Edelweiss. Also, what you state is incorrect if you combine both 340-fleets. Edelweiss has 4 A340's and SWISS 5, which makes a total of 9 and makes your 'go figure' completely obsolete ;)

oh, and commonality is not an issue between the 330 & 340.... same typerating ;)
 
Capricorn
Posts: 198
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:11 pm

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu May 06, 2021 3:39 pm

Honestly I expected more cuts. Seems LX is still to some extent optimistic. Edelweiss is the leisure arm of LX, so I don't exect any cuts there, as this is the traffic most likely to return. with 9 A340s (LX and WK) I think that indeed A330 will be eliminated. Or maybe they will just beredistributed inside thegroup and end up at OS or Eurodisco!
 
DALCE
Posts: 2033
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 7:45 pm

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu May 06, 2021 4:05 pm

Capricorn wrote:
Honestly I expected more cuts. Seems LX is still to some extent optimistic. Edelweiss is the leisure arm of LX, so I don't exect any cuts there, as this is the traffic most likely to return. with 9 A340s (LX and WK) I think that indeed A330 will be eliminated. Or maybe they will just beredistributed inside thegroup and end up at OS or Eurodisco!


Yes, indeed. That was what I thought too. There's still optimism to be found in the words from this morning.
 
777luver
Posts: 587
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:44 am

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu May 06, 2021 5:01 pm

Capricorn wrote:
Honestly I expected more cuts. Seems LX is still to some extent optimistic. Edelweiss is the leisure arm of LX, so I don't exect any cuts there, as this is the traffic most likely to return. with 9 A340s (LX and WK) I think that indeed A330 will be eliminated. Or maybe they will just beredistributed inside thegroup and end up at OS or Eurodisco!


I hope you're right. Most of the A330s have been parked. I just wish they gave out more info on whether it's 330/340s set to leave
 
HBJZA
Posts: 352
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2006 6:23 pm

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu May 06, 2021 5:17 pm

According to http://www.ch-aviation.com, easyjet Switzerland will be replacing 5 A320 ceo with 5 A320 neo by the end of the year.
 
LXA340
Posts: 1189
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 11:55 pm

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu May 06, 2021 9:14 pm

Capricorn wrote:
Honestly I expected more cuts. Seems LX is still to some extent optimistic. Edelweiss is the leisure arm of LX, so I don't exect any cuts there, as this is the traffic most likely to return. with 9 A340s (LX and WK) I think that indeed A330 will be eliminated. Or maybe they will just beredistributed inside thegroup and end up at OS or Eurodisco!


If these are the final cuts it's actually not that bad and possibly from all LH Group airlines the fleet reduction ratio wise might be even the smallest for LX.

I also guess the A340's will stay, firstly they were just refurbished and 2ndly because it was just decided that WK will get rid of it's A330's and keep it's A340's, hence due to fleet commonality reasons (maintenance) the A340 fleet based in ZRH would still hold 9 aircraft. If things will drastically improve over the next years we might see the A350's joining the SWISS and WK fleet as of 2025 and in the longer run the fleet be increased again. It's a crazy industry, at the begining of 2020 LX was still hiring hundreds of staff and then from one day to the other COVID came. Also once COVID is under control and travel restrictions lifted I am still optimistic that demand will pick up very quickly.

Interesting how LX will get out of the Helvetic Wetlease contract, ideally it would be best if they could get rid of it completely and keep more of their fleet.
 
DALCE
Posts: 2033
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 7:45 pm

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri May 07, 2021 1:50 pm

if you attended the webcast by Dieter Vranckx and extended MB and you paid attention, you know what Airbus widebodies will be cut.
Small hint, it's factually mentioned in one of the slides he showed.....
 
777luver
Posts: 587
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:44 am

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri May 07, 2021 2:12 pm

DALCE wrote:
if you attended the webcast by Dieter Vranckx and extended MB and you paid attention, you know what Airbus widebodies will be cut.
Small hint, it's factually mentioned in one of the slides he showed.....


This may be far fetched but is there a way to see said webcast after the fact?
 
DALCE
Posts: 2033
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 7:45 pm

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri May 07, 2021 2:15 pm

I believe this was strictly internal, so I guess not.
 
777luver
Posts: 587
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:44 am

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri May 07, 2021 2:24 pm

DALCE wrote:
I believe this was strictly internal, so I guess not.


I figured. Talk about suspense regarding which widebody a/c are leaving
 
NZ321
Posts: 1430
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:00 pm

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri May 07, 2021 2:39 pm

DALCE wrote:
mileduets wrote:
Blerg wrote:
What long-haul routes might be cut/reduced with the newly announced fleet reductions?


In an interview with the cabin crew union representative an Edelweiss A-340 was mentioned being transferred to Eurowings. That would account for one of the 5 cuts. I suspect the rest of the A-340 fleet could account for the remaining 4.


What has the Edelweiss fleet to do with reductions at SWISS?
It will most probably be the oldest 320/321's + 5x A330 which will leave the fleet. The 340's have much needed range which the 330's don't have.


You make a good point often overlooked in this forum. Plus A343 are light on mx and not gas guzzlers either. One of the best airplanes built IMHO.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 4726
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri May 07, 2021 4:13 pm

777luver wrote:
Capricorn wrote:
Honestly I expected more cuts. Seems LX is still to some extent optimistic. Edelweiss is the leisure arm of LX, so I don't exect any cuts there, as this is the traffic most likely to return. with 9 A340s (LX and WK) I think that indeed A330 will be eliminated. Or maybe they will just beredistributed inside thegroup and end up at OS or Eurodisco!


I hope you're right. Most of the A330s have been parked. I just wish they gave out more info on whether it's 330/340s set to leave


I don't see the A330s exiting the LX fleet. These are 2010-2012(?) builds, thus relatively new. I could see them potentially moving around the LH Group fleet, but that would require expensive interior modifications, so perhaps not. It is a bit of a head scratcher as to why the A340-300s were refurbished. 4 engines are very much on the way out, not efficient, and economics work when fuel prices are low, not when they spike. LX did a great job with the 340 mods but it's weird to see them stick with this plane, which are mid-2000s builds when the 333s and 77Ws have better economics. There has to be more to it than fleet commonality with Edelweiss.
 
777luver
Posts: 587
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:44 am

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri May 07, 2021 4:24 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
777luver wrote:
Capricorn wrote:
Honestly I expected more cuts. Seems LX is still to some extent optimistic. Edelweiss is the leisure arm of LX, so I don't exect any cuts there, as this is the traffic most likely to return. with 9 A340s (LX and WK) I think that indeed A330 will be eliminated. Or maybe they will just beredistributed inside thegroup and end up at OS or Eurodisco!


I hope you're right. Most of the A330s have been parked. I just wish they gave out more info on whether it's 330/340s set to leave


I don't see the A330s exiting the LX fleet. These are 2010-2012(?) builds, thus relatively new. I could see them potentially moving around the LH Group fleet, but that would require expensive interior modifications, so perhaps not. It is a bit of a head scratcher as to why the A340-300s were refurbished. 4 engines are very much on the way out, not efficient, and economics work when fuel prices are low, not when they spike. LX did a great job with the 340 mods but it's weird to see them stick with this plane, which are mid-2000s builds when the 333s and 77Ws have better economics. There has to be more to it than fleet commonality with Edelweiss.


The A340s are/were scheduled to stay until at least 2025 and covid wasn't a thing when they started mods which were complete by Jan 2020. Then came covid. Not efficient compared to what? Again there's the misconception that 4 engines must not be efficient etc, but yet if people did some googling they'd find the difference in fuel consumption between the 330/340-300 is almost laughable. The 330s also don't have the range to do some of the flights with the cargo it can take that the A340s do.
Last edited by 777luver on Fri May 07, 2021 4:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Blerg
Posts: 5105
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri May 07, 2021 4:25 pm

Is there a list somewhere where I can see which nationalities can enter Swiss without quarantine?
 
777luver
Posts: 587
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:44 am

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri May 07, 2021 4:29 pm

Blerg wrote:
Is there a list somewhere where I can see which nationalities can enter Swiss without quarantine?


The Swiss govt has a list, just search on Google, I don't have a link
 
phofmannsair
Posts: 99
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 5:28 am

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri May 07, 2021 6:03 pm

Blerg wrote:
Is there a list somewhere where I can see which nationalities can enter Swiss without quarantine?


There you go: https://www.bag.admin.ch/bag/en/home/krankheiten/ausbrueche-epidemien-pandemien/aktuelle-ausbrueche-epidemien/novel-cov/empfehlungen-fuer-reisende/liste.html#858610174
 
Capricorn
Posts: 198
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:11 pm

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri May 07, 2021 6:17 pm

I don't think the cabin outfit would be a play a large role in the decision of which fleet to get rid of. See DL getting rid of their B777LR with a relative new cabin product. I think range and lift is why the A340s will stay, as they are ideal for certain markets that the A330 cant reach and the B77W will too much plane for. I am also not convinced that the A330 potentially to be withdrawn from LX will leave LHG completely. LX yes, but the some of them might well gradually end up at Eurowings Discover. The same has happened to the WK A330s.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 4726
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri May 07, 2021 6:25 pm

777luver wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
777luver wrote:

I hope you're right. Most of the A330s have been parked. I just wish they gave out more info on whether it's 330/340s set to leave


I don't see the A330s exiting the LX fleet. These are 2010-2012(?) builds, thus relatively new. I could see them potentially moving around the LH Group fleet, but that would require expensive interior modifications, so perhaps not. It is a bit of a head scratcher as to why the A340-300s were refurbished. 4 engines are very much on the way out, not efficient, and economics work when fuel prices are low, not when they spike. LX did a great job with the 340 mods but it's weird to see them stick with this plane, which are mid-2000s builds when the 333s and 77Ws have better economics. There has to be more to it than fleet commonality with Edelweiss.


The A340s are/were scheduled to stay until at least 2025 and covid wasn't a thing when they started mods which were complete by Jan 2020. Then came covid. Not efficient compared to what? Again there's the misconception that 4 engines must not be efficient etc, but yet if people did some googling they'd find the difference in fuel consumption between the 330/340-300 is almost laughable. The 330s also don't have the range to do some of the flights with the cargo it can take that the A340s do.


Cabin mods aren't really a major factor in an airline's decision (generally) to remove a type, notably if the size of the sub fleet is small. Delta got rid of 18 newly modified 777s and did that very quickly. I'd agree with you that the lift/payload is a factor here, as Swiss is flying a lot more cargo long haul than passenger right now, and yes the 340s have more range than the 330s. As to fuel, maintenance, parts, etc...4 x the number of engines add to the expense.
 
Blerg
Posts: 5105
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri May 07, 2021 6:32 pm

phofmannsair wrote:
Blerg wrote:
Is there a list somewhere where I can see which nationalities can enter Swiss without quarantine?


There you go: https://www.bag.admin.ch/bag/en/home/krankheiten/ausbrueche-epidemien-pandemien/aktuelle-ausbrueche-epidemien/novel-cov/empfehlungen-fuer-reisende/liste.html#858610174


Thank you.
 
Bhoy
Posts: 572
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:50 pm

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat May 08, 2021 8:27 am

SRGVA67 wrote:
Blerg wrote:
What long-haul routes might be cut/reduced with the newly announced fleet reductions?

I would expect that longhaul traffic will be redistributed between the 5 LH group hubs and it remains to be seen what's left for ZRH. I remember reading in an interview with the previous LX CEO that only 5 l/h routes out of ZRH would be viable without feeding by the STAR alliance group. Maybe LX will keep these 5 longhaul routes ( I don't know which ones these are ) and all other ones could be up for redistribution among the 5 LH group hubs. If feeding is the only way to make a longhaul flight viable, it can easily be operated out of MUC, FRA or even VIE and BRU. Ok, this is the worst case scenario and I'm sure it won't come to that, but as all LH group hubs will be struggling for some time to come, I could easuily see LH to prioritise FRA and MUC.
One route I expect to go and not come back for a long time will be GVA/JFK, probably substitued with a code share on UA should they return to GVA.

The last sentence of this (German) article in 20Minuten (https://www.20min.ch/story/so-erklaert- ... 5629198845) says they are holding on to the Longhaul Flights from Geneva.
Having said that, the only Longhaul Flight they operate themselves ex-GVA is JFK, although there is code sharing in other Star Carriers to eg YUL (AC) and IAD (UA), so I’m unsure about the emphasis on Longhaul Flights ex-GVA...
 
LucaDiMontanari
Posts: 76
Joined: Sun Feb 09, 2020 10:37 am

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2021

Sun May 09, 2021 1:27 pm

SRGVA67 wrote:
I would expect that longhaul traffic will be redistributed between the 5 LH group hubs and it remains to be seen what's left for ZRH. I remember reading in an interview with the previous LX CEO that only 5 l/h routes out of ZRH would be viable without feeding by the STAR alliance group. Maybe LX will keep these 5 longhaul routes ( I don't know which ones these are ) and all other ones could be up for redistribution among the 5 LH group hubs. If feeding is the only way to make a longhaul flight viable, it can easily be operated out of MUC, FRA or even VIE and BRU. Ok, this is the worst case scenario and I'm sure it won't come to that, but as all LH group hubs will be struggling for some time to come, I could easuily see LH to prioritise FRA and MUC.
One route I expect to go and not come back for a long time will be GVA/JFK, probably substitued with a code share on UA should they return to GVA.


The five routes that were mentioned in that interview refer to the old rule of thumb in long haul air services, that a route needs 100'000 local PAX per year to be viable, if you don't have any feeders for it. For decades there used to be 4: New York, Singapore, Hong Kong and Bangkok. Nice to learn, that another one went over that limit - I guess it is Dubai, if I have a look at the 2019 numbers (2020 isn't actually accurate for some well known reason). Or they counted in Tel Aviv, which is not actually a long haul ex Switzerland but flown by LX's long haul fleet.

Problem No.1: there are many routes that are just slightly under that limit. Wild guess about the numbers, but does it makes more sense to feed 15'000 PAX per year from all over the world into Zurich to fill a route to let's say Tokyo? Or makes it more sense to hub 85'000 Swiss people via FRA? And this 19 times for all of LX's 24 pre-Covid long haul destinations?

Problem No.2: LX isn't alone on these 5 routes, so even those aren't actually viable for them without transferring PAX. Maybe New York would work. So one can basically argument, that there is no actual need for LX long hauls at all.

Problem No.3: if you do so and leave LX with only European destinations, it will go the way a Malev has gone. There are other airlines, that can do this better, read cheaper on short haul routes. You know them, their aircraft are usually painted in orange, pink or yellow&blue.

We have to take into account here, that even as 5 routes doesn't sounds like much, with this number Zurich is on the 9th position in Europe, ahead of places like Lisbon (4 destinations), Moscow (4), Istanbul (3) and even Munich (2). There are just 8 cities ahead of Zurich (London/65 destinations, Frankfurt/45, Paris/18, Amsterdam/15, Madrid/12, Rome/6, Manchester/6, Milan/5) And there are just a mere 28 other Cities in Europe that can support two or even just one long haul destination. So Zurich is in a quite good position for a long haul hub, in fact number two within the Lufthansa-group and much better suited than Brussels or Vienna. Or even Munich. This is something, even a lot of so-called "experts" often tend to forget about. You can figure out for yourself how "easily" the Swiss passengers can be redistributed via VIE or BRU and how this should make sense.

I also expect GVA-JFK to stay: this route is heavily used by diplomatic passengers with the UNO headquarter in New York and lot of UN-organizations situated in Geneva. There is no reason to give away one of the most profitable routes in the whole group an let UA earn all the money. In fact, some even say, it is the only route in the whole Lufthansa group where the first class actually makes a profit...

ContinentalEWR wrote:
Cabin mods aren't really a major factor in an airline's decision (generally) to remove a type, notably if the size of the sub fleet is small. Delta got rid of 18 newly modified 777s and did that very quickly. I'd agree with you that the lift/payload is a factor here, as Swiss is flying a lot more cargo long haul than passenger right now, and yes the 340s have more range than the 330s. As to fuel, maintenance, parts, etc...4 x the number of engines add to the expense.


This - and the fact, that LX has plans for later that year, that include to cut the first class in half and introduce a premium economy product. So the modified cabins in the A340's are already wasted and would have to be modified again anyway. So the new cabins off the A340's aren't actually a valid argument.
 
777luver
Posts: 587
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:44 am

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2021

Sun May 09, 2021 3:17 pm

LucaDiMontanari wrote:
SRGVA67 wrote:
I would expect that longhaul traffic will be redistributed between the 5 LH group hubs and it remains to be seen what's left for ZRH. I remember reading in an interview with the previous LX CEO that only 5 l/h routes out of ZRH would be viable without feeding by the STAR alliance group. Maybe LX will keep these 5 longhaul routes ( I don't know which ones these are ) and all other ones could be up for redistribution among the 5 LH group hubs. If feeding is the only way to make a longhaul flight viable, it can easily be operated out of MUC, FRA or even VIE and BRU. Ok, this is the worst case scenario and I'm sure it won't come to that, but as all LH group hubs will be struggling for some time to come, I could easuily see LH to prioritise FRA and MUC.
One route I expect to go and not come back for a long time will be GVA/JFK, probably substitued with a code share on UA should they return to GVA.


The five routes that were mentioned in that interview refer to the old rule of thumb in long haul air services, that a route needs 100'000 local PAX per year to be viable, if you don't have any feeders for it. For decades there used to be 4: New York, Singapore, Hong Kong and Bangkok. Nice to learn, that another one went over that limit - I guess it is Dubai, if I have a look at the 2019 numbers (2020 isn't actually accurate for some well known reason). Or they counted in Tel Aviv, which is not actually a long haul ex Switzerland but flown by LX's long haul fleet.

Problem No.1: there are many routes that are just slightly under that limit. Wild guess about the numbers, but does it makes more sense to feed 15'000 PAX per year from all over the world into Zurich to fill a route to let's say Tokyo? Or makes it more sense to hub 85'000 Swiss people via FRA? And this 19 times for all of LX's 24 pre-Covid long haul destinations?

Problem No.2: LX isn't alone on these 5 routes, so even those aren't actually viable for them without transferring PAX. Maybe New York would work. So one can basically argument, that there is no actual need for LX long hauls at all.

Problem No.3: if you do so and leave LX with only European destinations, it will go the way a Malev has gone. There are other airlines, that can do this better, read cheaper on short haul routes. You know them, their aircraft are usually painted in orange, pink or yellow&blue.

We have to take into account here, that even as 5 routes doesn't sounds like much, with this number Zurich is on the 9th position in Europe, ahead of places like Lisbon (4 destinations), Moscow (4), Istanbul (3) and even Munich (2). There are just 8 cities ahead of Zurich (London/65 destinations, Frankfurt/45, Paris/18, Amsterdam/15, Madrid/12, Rome/6, Manchester/6, Milan/5) And there are just a mere 28 other Cities in Europe that can support two or even just one long haul destination. So Zurich is in a quite good position for a long haul hub, in fact number two within the Lufthansa-group and much better suited than Brussels or Vienna. Or even Munich. This is something, even a lot of so-called "experts" often tend to forget about. You can figure out for yourself how "easily" the Swiss passengers can be redistributed via VIE or BRU and how this should make sense.

I also expect GVA-JFK to stay: this route is heavily used by diplomatic passengers with the UNO headquarter in New York and lot of UN-organizations situated in Geneva. There is no reason to give away one of the most profitable routes in the whole group an let UA earn all the money. In fact, some even say, it is the only route in the whole Lufthansa group where the first class actually makes a profit...

ContinentalEWR wrote:
Cabin mods aren't really a major factor in an airline's decision (generally) to remove a type, notably if the size of the sub fleet is small. Delta got rid of 18 newly modified 777s and did that very quickly. I'd agree with you that the lift/payload is a factor here, as Swiss is flying a lot more cargo long haul than passenger right now, and yes the 340s have more range than the 330s. As to fuel, maintenance, parts, etc...4 x the number of engines add to the expense.


This - and the fact, that LX has plans for later that year, that include to cut the first class in half and introduce a premium economy product. So the modified cabins in the A340's are already wasted and would have to be modified again anyway. So the new cabins off the A340's aren't actually a valid argument.


Regarding the premium economy product being introduced, is there a reason they didn't do that with the A340 mods? Seems like a lot of money to spend for a temporary mod just to re-modify it a short time later.
 
DTVG
Posts: 104
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:06 pm

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2021

Sun May 09, 2021 3:38 pm

Probably because the A340 mod was planned and finalized around 2016 (?) and premium eco was not up for discussion back then. If I remember correctly the actual implementation took ages (2020) because some seats or parts or whatever were massively delayed…
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 4726
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2021

Sun May 09, 2021 10:27 pm

LucaDiMontanari wrote:
SRGVA67 wrote:
I would expect that longhaul traffic will be redistributed between the 5 LH group hubs and it remains to be seen what's left for ZRH. I remember reading in an interview with the previous LX CEO that only 5 l/h routes out of ZRH would be viable without feeding by the STAR alliance group. Maybe LX will keep these 5 longhaul routes ( I don't know which ones these are ) and all other ones could be up for redistribution among the 5 LH group hubs. If feeding is the only way to make a longhaul flight viable, it can easily be operated out of MUC, FRA or even VIE and BRU. Ok, this is the worst case scenario and I'm sure it won't come to that, but as all LH group hubs will be struggling for some time to come, I could easuily see LH to prioritise FRA and MUC.
One route I expect to go and not come back for a long time will be GVA/JFK, probably substitued with a code share on UA should they return to GVA.


The five routes that were mentioned in that interview refer to the old rule of thumb in long haul air services, that a route needs 100'000 local PAX per year to be viable, if you don't have any feeders for it. For decades there used to be 4: New York, Singapore, Hong Kong and Bangkok. Nice to learn, that another one went over that limit - I guess it is Dubai, if I have a look at the 2019 numbers (2020 isn't actually accurate for some well known reason). Or they counted in Tel Aviv, which is not actually a long haul ex Switzerland but flown by LX's long haul fleet.

Problem No.1: there are many routes that are just slightly under that limit. Wild guess about the numbers, but does it makes more sense to feed 15'000 PAX per year from all over the world into Zurich to fill a route to let's say Tokyo? Or makes it more sense to hub 85'000 Swiss people via FRA? And this 19 times for all of LX's 24 pre-Covid long haul destinations?

Problem No.2: LX isn't alone on these 5 routes, so even those aren't actually viable for them without transferring PAX. Maybe New York would work. So one can basically argument, that there is no actual need for LX long hauls at all.

Problem No.3: if you do so and leave LX with only European destinations, it will go the way a Malev has gone. There are other airlines, that can do this better, read cheaper on short haul routes. You know them, their aircraft are usually painted in orange, pink or yellow&blue.

We have to take into account here, that even as 5 routes doesn't sounds like much, with this number Zurich is on the 9th position in Europe, ahead of places like Lisbon (4 destinations), Moscow (4), Istanbul (3) and even Munich (2). There are just 8 cities ahead of Zurich (London/65 destinations, Frankfurt/45, Paris/18, Amsterdam/15, Madrid/12, Rome/6, Manchester/6, Milan/5) And there are just a mere 28 other Cities in Europe that can support two or even just one long haul destination. So Zurich is in a quite good position for a long haul hub, in fact number two within the Lufthansa-group and much better suited than Brussels or Vienna. Or even Munich. This is something, even a lot of so-called "experts" often tend to forget about. You can figure out for yourself how "easily" the Swiss passengers can be redistributed via VIE or BRU and how this should make sense.

I also expect GVA-JFK to stay: this route is heavily used by diplomatic passengers with the UNO headquarter in New York and lot of UN-organizations situated in Geneva. There is no reason to give away one of the most profitable routes in the whole group an let UA earn all the money. In fact, some even say, it is the only route in the whole Lufthansa group where the first class actually makes a profit...

ContinentalEWR wrote:
Cabin mods aren't really a major factor in an airline's decision (generally) to remove a type, notably if the size of the sub fleet is small. Delta got rid of 18 newly modified 777s and did that very quickly. I'd agree with you that the lift/payload is a factor here, as Swiss is flying a lot more cargo long haul than passenger right now, and yes the 340s have more range than the 330s. As to fuel, maintenance, parts, etc...4 x the number of engines add to the expense.


This - and the fact, that LX has plans for later that year, that include to cut the first class in half and introduce a premium economy product. So the modified cabins in the A340's are already wasted and would have to be modified again anyway. So the new cabins off the A340's aren't actually a valid argument.


JFK-GVA will come back. The route is quite profitable and has been around for decades and a flagship route for LX. It may be a an odd-ball in LX's otherwise ZRH centric long haul operation but there's no way LX will cede it to code-shares. It's too important a market to offer one-stop service via FRA/MUC or even ZRH. It is due to return in October. If anything, I can see UA shelving EWR-GVA for a time until traffic levels, specifically for business/NGO traffic pick up.
 
LXA340
Posts: 1189
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 11:55 pm

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu May 13, 2021 4:19 pm

777luver wrote:
LucaDiMontanari wrote:

Regarding the premium economy product being introduced, is there a reason they didn't do that with the A340 mods? Seems like a lot of money to spend for a temporary mod just to re-modify it a short time later.


It is not yet clear if all Aircraft will get the reduction from 8 to 4 First Class seats. Also it's a idfference if you are doing slight changes to the configuration compared to a whole refit, so the costs will be not that dramatic compared to the full cabin refit done before.
 
Blerg
Posts: 5105
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 am

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2021

Sun May 23, 2021 6:13 am

After Switzerland removed quarantine for Serbia, JU has responded by increasing BEG-ZRH to 14 weekly.All flights are already in the system.

I do not know if LX did the same but I am sure they will. I already saw some flights being operated by the A320 instead of the A220.
 
DALCE
Posts: 2033
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 7:45 pm

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon May 24, 2021 4:14 pm

Last delivery of an A220, HB-JCU is currently en route from Mirabel to Zürich on it’s delivery flight as LX5201.
 
User avatar
eurotrader85
Posts: 274
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:45 pm

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2021

Sun Jun 06, 2021 7:18 am

Zurich airport is planning to extend the two shorter runways. Construction on the extensions won't start until 2030, and still needs to go through the Canton Parliament for debate (expect the NIMBYs and Greens to give their usual campaign against) but has been approved by the Cantonal government. Hopefully, we do see the construction happen, makes operational sense to extend those two runways.

Does anyone know, if the project has been approved by the Canton government, can a referendum still be called, potentially derailing it? Either through petition signatures or parliament?

https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/zurich-air ... s/46674420
 
SRGVA67
Posts: 44
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2019 9:12 am

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2021

Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:48 am

eurotrader85 wrote:
Zurich airport is planning to extend the two shorter runways. Construction on the extensions won't start until 2030, and still needs to go through the Canton Parliament for debate (expect the NIMBYs and Greens to give their usual campaign against) but has been approved by the Cantonal government. Hopefully, we do see the construction happen, makes operational sense to extend those two runways.

Does anyone know, if the project has been approved by the Canton government, can a referendum still be called, potentially derailing it? Either through petition signatures or parliament?

https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/zurich-air ... s/46674420

Definitely, the cantonal parliament can approve or refuse it and even this decision can be challenged by popular referendum.
 
debonair
Posts: 4309
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 10:50 pm

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:41 pm

What the hell is going on in Oporto?! I found 3(!!!) flights in July on Fridays from ZRH to OPO:

LX2060 B777
LX2064 A321
LX2068 A320

On Thursday are 4 flights scheduled (3xLX/1xTP), albeit with smaller A320 family...
 
hervebkk
Posts: 38
Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:01 pm

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:24 am

Looks like HB-IOM is going back to life in AMM:

https://www.flightradar24.com/HBIOM/27ffc805
 
PhilInBRN
Posts: 322
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2009 3:30 pm

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:18 am

debonair wrote:
What the hell is going on in Oporto?! I found 3(!!!) flights in July on Fridays from ZRH to OPO:

LX2060 B777
LX2064 A321
LX2068 A320

On Thursday are 4 flights scheduled (3xLX/1xTP), albeit with smaller A320 family...


Huge Portuguese community in Switzerland (albeit more to the West). At the end of 2019 there were 260‘000 Portuguese living in Switzerland (and many more in the French border areas around Geneva and Basel).
In addition, a large part of Spanish expats are from Galicia/Northern Spain - OPO is also a potential destination airport for them.
Furthermore, Porto and Northern Portugal is a popular destination for weekend trips for Swiss travelers.

All in all, the above factors explain the huge capacity in the Switzerland-Porto market - which is evidenced by the amount of two way passengers pre-Covid (2019)
• GVA-OPO: 694k
• ZRH-OPO: 279k
• BSL-OPO: ca 200k
 
RJ100
Posts: 3905
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2000 1:37 am

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:25 pm

Helvetic Airways has announced to base two aircraft in BSL as per July. Initial routes are to Santorin, Jerez, Larnaca and Pristina.

Interesting move-however it seems this is only the weekend schedule. I wonder what exactly is the plan for the rest of the week (flying for EW, LH, OS, SN or even LX?).
 
PhilInBRN
Posts: 322
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2009 3:30 pm

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:11 pm

RJ100 wrote:
Helvetic Airways has announced to base two aircraft in BSL as per July. Initial routes are to Santorin, Jerez, Larnaca and Pristina.

Interesting move-however it seems this is only the weekend schedule. I wonder what exactly is the plan for the rest of the week (flying for EW, LH, OS, SN or even LX?).


Well, there were some rumours that as a compensation for reducing the wet-lease of Helvetic aircraft by Swiss, LH group would engage 2L for contract flying for Eurowings. Not sure what routes they would operate from EAP other than PMI, PRN and DUS, though.
 
davidjohnson6
Posts: 1574
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:10 pm

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:48 pm

I can see Air Mountain selling various beach routes out of Switzerland. Are they a real airline with an AOC operating their own aircraft.... or are they just a travel agent ? If just a travel agent, who is doing the flying for them ?
https://air-mountain.ch/en
 
HBJZA
Posts: 352
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2006 6:23 pm

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:57 pm

davidjohnson6 wrote:
I can see Air Mountain selling various beach routes out of Switzerland. Are they a real airline with an AOC operating their own aircraft.... or are they just a travel agent ? If just a travel agent, who is doing the flying for them ?
https://air-mountain.ch/en

It is a joint venture with Air Glacier until Air Mountain takes over fully the operations.
https://abouttravel.ch/industrie-des-vo ... nt-tropez/
 
LXA340
Posts: 1189
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 11:55 pm

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:08 am

Not sure if it's a premier or not, but I heard a loud aircraft sound last night over our lake community that I can't recall have heard before. When checking I saw it was LX288 to JNB taking off from Runway 16 at ZRH and performing the Straight out departure towards the south, so looks like if there is absolutely no other choice due to weather this option can be used. We had very strong thunderstorms in the area last night and looking at the taxi route of the aircraft, it initally headed for a Runway 34 departure but then headed all the way to Runway 16 from where it took off. Good to see that before a flight has to be cancelled / risking the safety of passengers and crew it is even possible to use this hopefully soon to be approved common Departure route.
 
PhilInBRN
Posts: 322
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2009 3:30 pm

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:18 am

Some ZRH route news:

- easyJet will be launching flights to BCN, FAO and BDS (in W-pattern with BCN-based aircraft). Flights will start 20 July and run until end of October
- Condor will operate a total 23 weekly flights starting 3 July to PMI, IBZ, LPA, TFS, HER, KGS, RHO, LCA, OLB. The airline will also serve ZRH in W22 to TFS, LPA, FUE, FNC with 7 flights per week total
- The new Air Montenegro has started flights to TGD with Embraer 190
- Edelweiss will operate weekly flights to Newquay in August/September
- Edelweiss will operate weekly flights to Sal / Cabo Verde starting November 1
- Edelweiss will also resume flights to KEF 2x per week starting early July
- Air Albania will serve Kukes (new destination) 1x per week starting in July
- Swiss will use the B777-300ER on many flights to OPO, PMI and ATH during summer months

Swiss has also returned some aircraft stored in AMM since last September back into service. HB-IOH and HB-IOF (both A321s) and HB-JHN (A333) were flown to ZRH yesterday. Two A320s will follow next week.
 
phofmannsair
Posts: 99
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 5:28 am

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:41 pm

After more than 20 years, Geneva Airport will reopen its new "Panorama" terrace to the public tomorrow, June 24th at 10am (accessible from landisde).

Entrance will be free until the end of the year (no word on the price afterwards) and public will have to go trough security checks.

It'll be open from:
- May 1st to October 31st every Tuesdays to Sundays from 10am to 7pm (last entry at 6pm).
- March 15th to April 30th every Wed/Sat/Sun from 11am to 5pm (last entry at 4pm).

https://newsroom.gva.ch/nouvelle-terrasse-publique/ sorry, only in French.

Patrick.
 
ANITIX87
Posts: 3011
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 4:52 am

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon Jun 28, 2021 7:35 pm

In looking to book a trip to Switzerland, it looks like GVA-JFK non-stop is starting up again around October 30. Can anyone confirm the date for non-stops in both directions? For some reason, it also appears to be almost $400 more per person, round-trip, than stopping ZRH (or FRA/MUC/AMS/CDG with other carriers).
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 4726
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:00 pm

ANITIX87 wrote:
In looking to book a trip to Switzerland, it looks like GVA-JFK non-stop is starting up again around October 30. Can anyone confirm the date for non-stops in both directions? For some reason, it also appears to be almost $400 more per person, round-trip, than stopping ZRH (or FRA/MUC/AMS/CDG with other carriers).


That's good to know the JFK-GVA-JFK nonstop is returning. Think LX will be the only operator. UA has no plans to bring back EWR-GVA for a while. That is why it is more expensive.
 
runway23
Posts: 2415
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:12 am

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Jun 29, 2021 11:28 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
ANITIX87 wrote:
In looking to book a trip to Switzerland, it looks like GVA-JFK non-stop is starting up again around October 30. Can anyone confirm the date for non-stops in both directions? For some reason, it also appears to be almost $400 more per person, round-trip, than stopping ZRH (or FRA/MUC/AMS/CDG with other carriers).


That's good to know the JFK-GVA-JFK nonstop is returning. Think LX will be the only operator. UA has no plans to bring back EWR-GVA for a while. That is why it is more expensive.


Actually UA is still loaded to return on GVA-EWR (and GVA-IAD for that matter) on October 31st, same day LX has loaded the first GVA-JFK.

Truth is neither UA or LX have finalized their schedule for those dates and the flights are merely placeholders at this point.

If the US doesn't reopen its borders to foreigners who have been to a Schengen country it's difficult to imagine any of those three flights returning before year end.
 
hannah9898
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2020 12:58 pm

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed Jun 30, 2021 1:05 pm

15 aircraft will leave Swiss fleet after Pandemic. All of Swiss A340s are still flying as of today and they are recently refurbished. With 5 Swiss long haul fleet are to be retired, I bet it's 5 of their A330s which they didn't recieve refurbishment yet like their A340s. The rest 10 aircraft is the A320s.
 
ANITIX87
Posts: 3011
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 4:52 am

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed Jun 30, 2021 7:01 pm

runway23 wrote:
If the US doesn't reopen its borders to foreigners who have been to a Schengen country it's difficult to imagine any of those three flights returning before year end.

They can be booked, based on what I've seen. What would happen to my fare if the flight doesn't come back?

(Also, shouldn't your username be 'runway22' if it's named after the runway at GVA?)
 
runway23
Posts: 2415
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:12 am

Re: Swiss Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed Jun 30, 2021 9:59 pm

ANITIX87 wrote:
runway23 wrote:
If the US doesn't reopen its borders to foreigners who have been to a Schengen country it's difficult to imagine any of those three flights returning before year end.

They can be booked, based on what I've seen. What would happen to my fare if the flight doesn't come back?

(Also, shouldn't your username be 'runway22' if it's named after the runway at GVA?)


They'll rebook you through another hub if the flight is cancelled, no fare difference to be paid.

16 years ago the Runway in Geneva was still 23 ;)

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos