Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
Blerg wrote:What long-haul routes might be cut/reduced with the newly announced fleet reductions?
mileduets wrote:Blerg wrote:What long-haul routes might be cut/reduced with the newly announced fleet reductions?
In an interview with the cabin crew union representative an Edelweiss A-340 was mentioned being transferred to Eurowings. That would account for one of the 5 cuts. I suspect the rest of the A-340 fleet could account for the remaining 4.
DALCE wrote:What has the Edelweiss fleet to do with reductions at SWISS?
Blerg wrote:What long-haul routes might be cut/reduced with the newly announced fleet reductions?
mileduets wrote:DALCE wrote:What has the Edelweiss fleet to do with reductions at SWISS?
Fleet commonality - Swiss is the parent company of Edelweiss. There are 5 A-340 left, Swiss intends to reduce the long haul fleet by 5. Go figure.
Capricorn wrote:Honestly I expected more cuts. Seems LX is still to some extent optimistic. Edelweiss is the leisure arm of LX, so I don't exect any cuts there, as this is the traffic most likely to return. with 9 A340s (LX and WK) I think that indeed A330 will be eliminated. Or maybe they will just beredistributed inside thegroup and end up at OS or Eurodisco!
Capricorn wrote:Honestly I expected more cuts. Seems LX is still to some extent optimistic. Edelweiss is the leisure arm of LX, so I don't exect any cuts there, as this is the traffic most likely to return. with 9 A340s (LX and WK) I think that indeed A330 will be eliminated. Or maybe they will just beredistributed inside thegroup and end up at OS or Eurodisco!
Capricorn wrote:Honestly I expected more cuts. Seems LX is still to some extent optimistic. Edelweiss is the leisure arm of LX, so I don't exect any cuts there, as this is the traffic most likely to return. with 9 A340s (LX and WK) I think that indeed A330 will be eliminated. Or maybe they will just beredistributed inside thegroup and end up at OS or Eurodisco!
DALCE wrote:if you attended the webcast by Dieter Vranckx and extended MB and you paid attention, you know what Airbus widebodies will be cut.
Small hint, it's factually mentioned in one of the slides he showed.....
DALCE wrote:I believe this was strictly internal, so I guess not.
DALCE wrote:mileduets wrote:Blerg wrote:What long-haul routes might be cut/reduced with the newly announced fleet reductions?
In an interview with the cabin crew union representative an Edelweiss A-340 was mentioned being transferred to Eurowings. That would account for one of the 5 cuts. I suspect the rest of the A-340 fleet could account for the remaining 4.
What has the Edelweiss fleet to do with reductions at SWISS?
It will most probably be the oldest 320/321's + 5x A330 which will leave the fleet. The 340's have much needed range which the 330's don't have.
777luver wrote:Capricorn wrote:Honestly I expected more cuts. Seems LX is still to some extent optimistic. Edelweiss is the leisure arm of LX, so I don't exect any cuts there, as this is the traffic most likely to return. with 9 A340s (LX and WK) I think that indeed A330 will be eliminated. Or maybe they will just beredistributed inside thegroup and end up at OS or Eurodisco!
I hope you're right. Most of the A330s have been parked. I just wish they gave out more info on whether it's 330/340s set to leave
ContinentalEWR wrote:777luver wrote:Capricorn wrote:Honestly I expected more cuts. Seems LX is still to some extent optimistic. Edelweiss is the leisure arm of LX, so I don't exect any cuts there, as this is the traffic most likely to return. with 9 A340s (LX and WK) I think that indeed A330 will be eliminated. Or maybe they will just beredistributed inside thegroup and end up at OS or Eurodisco!
I hope you're right. Most of the A330s have been parked. I just wish they gave out more info on whether it's 330/340s set to leave
I don't see the A330s exiting the LX fleet. These are 2010-2012(?) builds, thus relatively new. I could see them potentially moving around the LH Group fleet, but that would require expensive interior modifications, so perhaps not. It is a bit of a head scratcher as to why the A340-300s were refurbished. 4 engines are very much on the way out, not efficient, and economics work when fuel prices are low, not when they spike. LX did a great job with the 340 mods but it's weird to see them stick with this plane, which are mid-2000s builds when the 333s and 77Ws have better economics. There has to be more to it than fleet commonality with Edelweiss.
Blerg wrote:Is there a list somewhere where I can see which nationalities can enter Swiss without quarantine?
Blerg wrote:Is there a list somewhere where I can see which nationalities can enter Swiss without quarantine?
777luver wrote:ContinentalEWR wrote:777luver wrote:
I hope you're right. Most of the A330s have been parked. I just wish they gave out more info on whether it's 330/340s set to leave
I don't see the A330s exiting the LX fleet. These are 2010-2012(?) builds, thus relatively new. I could see them potentially moving around the LH Group fleet, but that would require expensive interior modifications, so perhaps not. It is a bit of a head scratcher as to why the A340-300s were refurbished. 4 engines are very much on the way out, not efficient, and economics work when fuel prices are low, not when they spike. LX did a great job with the 340 mods but it's weird to see them stick with this plane, which are mid-2000s builds when the 333s and 77Ws have better economics. There has to be more to it than fleet commonality with Edelweiss.
The A340s are/were scheduled to stay until at least 2025 and covid wasn't a thing when they started mods which were complete by Jan 2020. Then came covid. Not efficient compared to what? Again there's the misconception that 4 engines must not be efficient etc, but yet if people did some googling they'd find the difference in fuel consumption between the 330/340-300 is almost laughable. The 330s also don't have the range to do some of the flights with the cargo it can take that the A340s do.
phofmannsair wrote:Blerg wrote:Is there a list somewhere where I can see which nationalities can enter Swiss without quarantine?
There you go: https://www.bag.admin.ch/bag/en/home/krankheiten/ausbrueche-epidemien-pandemien/aktuelle-ausbrueche-epidemien/novel-cov/empfehlungen-fuer-reisende/liste.html#858610174
SRGVA67 wrote:Blerg wrote:What long-haul routes might be cut/reduced with the newly announced fleet reductions?
I would expect that longhaul traffic will be redistributed between the 5 LH group hubs and it remains to be seen what's left for ZRH. I remember reading in an interview with the previous LX CEO that only 5 l/h routes out of ZRH would be viable without feeding by the STAR alliance group. Maybe LX will keep these 5 longhaul routes ( I don't know which ones these are ) and all other ones could be up for redistribution among the 5 LH group hubs. If feeding is the only way to make a longhaul flight viable, it can easily be operated out of MUC, FRA or even VIE and BRU. Ok, this is the worst case scenario and I'm sure it won't come to that, but as all LH group hubs will be struggling for some time to come, I could easuily see LH to prioritise FRA and MUC.
One route I expect to go and not come back for a long time will be GVA/JFK, probably substitued with a code share on UA should they return to GVA.
SRGVA67 wrote:I would expect that longhaul traffic will be redistributed between the 5 LH group hubs and it remains to be seen what's left for ZRH. I remember reading in an interview with the previous LX CEO that only 5 l/h routes out of ZRH would be viable without feeding by the STAR alliance group. Maybe LX will keep these 5 longhaul routes ( I don't know which ones these are ) and all other ones could be up for redistribution among the 5 LH group hubs. If feeding is the only way to make a longhaul flight viable, it can easily be operated out of MUC, FRA or even VIE and BRU. Ok, this is the worst case scenario and I'm sure it won't come to that, but as all LH group hubs will be struggling for some time to come, I could easuily see LH to prioritise FRA and MUC.
One route I expect to go and not come back for a long time will be GVA/JFK, probably substitued with a code share on UA should they return to GVA.
ContinentalEWR wrote:Cabin mods aren't really a major factor in an airline's decision (generally) to remove a type, notably if the size of the sub fleet is small. Delta got rid of 18 newly modified 777s and did that very quickly. I'd agree with you that the lift/payload is a factor here, as Swiss is flying a lot more cargo long haul than passenger right now, and yes the 340s have more range than the 330s. As to fuel, maintenance, parts, etc...4 x the number of engines add to the expense.
LucaDiMontanari wrote:SRGVA67 wrote:I would expect that longhaul traffic will be redistributed between the 5 LH group hubs and it remains to be seen what's left for ZRH. I remember reading in an interview with the previous LX CEO that only 5 l/h routes out of ZRH would be viable without feeding by the STAR alliance group. Maybe LX will keep these 5 longhaul routes ( I don't know which ones these are ) and all other ones could be up for redistribution among the 5 LH group hubs. If feeding is the only way to make a longhaul flight viable, it can easily be operated out of MUC, FRA or even VIE and BRU. Ok, this is the worst case scenario and I'm sure it won't come to that, but as all LH group hubs will be struggling for some time to come, I could easuily see LH to prioritise FRA and MUC.
One route I expect to go and not come back for a long time will be GVA/JFK, probably substitued with a code share on UA should they return to GVA.
The five routes that were mentioned in that interview refer to the old rule of thumb in long haul air services, that a route needs 100'000 local PAX per year to be viable, if you don't have any feeders for it. For decades there used to be 4: New York, Singapore, Hong Kong and Bangkok. Nice to learn, that another one went over that limit - I guess it is Dubai, if I have a look at the 2019 numbers (2020 isn't actually accurate for some well known reason). Or they counted in Tel Aviv, which is not actually a long haul ex Switzerland but flown by LX's long haul fleet.
Problem No.1: there are many routes that are just slightly under that limit. Wild guess about the numbers, but does it makes more sense to feed 15'000 PAX per year from all over the world into Zurich to fill a route to let's say Tokyo? Or makes it more sense to hub 85'000 Swiss people via FRA? And this 19 times for all of LX's 24 pre-Covid long haul destinations?
Problem No.2: LX isn't alone on these 5 routes, so even those aren't actually viable for them without transferring PAX. Maybe New York would work. So one can basically argument, that there is no actual need for LX long hauls at all.
Problem No.3: if you do so and leave LX with only European destinations, it will go the way a Malev has gone. There are other airlines, that can do this better, read cheaper on short haul routes. You know them, their aircraft are usually painted in orange, pink or yellow&blue.
We have to take into account here, that even as 5 routes doesn't sounds like much, with this number Zurich is on the 9th position in Europe, ahead of places like Lisbon (4 destinations), Moscow (4), Istanbul (3) and even Munich (2). There are just 8 cities ahead of Zurich (London/65 destinations, Frankfurt/45, Paris/18, Amsterdam/15, Madrid/12, Rome/6, Manchester/6, Milan/5) And there are just a mere 28 other Cities in Europe that can support two or even just one long haul destination. So Zurich is in a quite good position for a long haul hub, in fact number two within the Lufthansa-group and much better suited than Brussels or Vienna. Or even Munich. This is something, even a lot of so-called "experts" often tend to forget about. You can figure out for yourself how "easily" the Swiss passengers can be redistributed via VIE or BRU and how this should make sense.
I also expect GVA-JFK to stay: this route is heavily used by diplomatic passengers with the UNO headquarter in New York and lot of UN-organizations situated in Geneva. There is no reason to give away one of the most profitable routes in the whole group an let UA earn all the money. In fact, some even say, it is the only route in the whole Lufthansa group where the first class actually makes a profit...ContinentalEWR wrote:Cabin mods aren't really a major factor in an airline's decision (generally) to remove a type, notably if the size of the sub fleet is small. Delta got rid of 18 newly modified 777s and did that very quickly. I'd agree with you that the lift/payload is a factor here, as Swiss is flying a lot more cargo long haul than passenger right now, and yes the 340s have more range than the 330s. As to fuel, maintenance, parts, etc...4 x the number of engines add to the expense.
This - and the fact, that LX has plans for later that year, that include to cut the first class in half and introduce a premium economy product. So the modified cabins in the A340's are already wasted and would have to be modified again anyway. So the new cabins off the A340's aren't actually a valid argument.
LucaDiMontanari wrote:SRGVA67 wrote:I would expect that longhaul traffic will be redistributed between the 5 LH group hubs and it remains to be seen what's left for ZRH. I remember reading in an interview with the previous LX CEO that only 5 l/h routes out of ZRH would be viable without feeding by the STAR alliance group. Maybe LX will keep these 5 longhaul routes ( I don't know which ones these are ) and all other ones could be up for redistribution among the 5 LH group hubs. If feeding is the only way to make a longhaul flight viable, it can easily be operated out of MUC, FRA or even VIE and BRU. Ok, this is the worst case scenario and I'm sure it won't come to that, but as all LH group hubs will be struggling for some time to come, I could easuily see LH to prioritise FRA and MUC.
One route I expect to go and not come back for a long time will be GVA/JFK, probably substitued with a code share on UA should they return to GVA.
The five routes that were mentioned in that interview refer to the old rule of thumb in long haul air services, that a route needs 100'000 local PAX per year to be viable, if you don't have any feeders for it. For decades there used to be 4: New York, Singapore, Hong Kong and Bangkok. Nice to learn, that another one went over that limit - I guess it is Dubai, if I have a look at the 2019 numbers (2020 isn't actually accurate for some well known reason). Or they counted in Tel Aviv, which is not actually a long haul ex Switzerland but flown by LX's long haul fleet.
Problem No.1: there are many routes that are just slightly under that limit. Wild guess about the numbers, but does it makes more sense to feed 15'000 PAX per year from all over the world into Zurich to fill a route to let's say Tokyo? Or makes it more sense to hub 85'000 Swiss people via FRA? And this 19 times for all of LX's 24 pre-Covid long haul destinations?
Problem No.2: LX isn't alone on these 5 routes, so even those aren't actually viable for them without transferring PAX. Maybe New York would work. So one can basically argument, that there is no actual need for LX long hauls at all.
Problem No.3: if you do so and leave LX with only European destinations, it will go the way a Malev has gone. There are other airlines, that can do this better, read cheaper on short haul routes. You know them, their aircraft are usually painted in orange, pink or yellow&blue.
We have to take into account here, that even as 5 routes doesn't sounds like much, with this number Zurich is on the 9th position in Europe, ahead of places like Lisbon (4 destinations), Moscow (4), Istanbul (3) and even Munich (2). There are just 8 cities ahead of Zurich (London/65 destinations, Frankfurt/45, Paris/18, Amsterdam/15, Madrid/12, Rome/6, Manchester/6, Milan/5) And there are just a mere 28 other Cities in Europe that can support two or even just one long haul destination. So Zurich is in a quite good position for a long haul hub, in fact number two within the Lufthansa-group and much better suited than Brussels or Vienna. Or even Munich. This is something, even a lot of so-called "experts" often tend to forget about. You can figure out for yourself how "easily" the Swiss passengers can be redistributed via VIE or BRU and how this should make sense.
I also expect GVA-JFK to stay: this route is heavily used by diplomatic passengers with the UNO headquarter in New York and lot of UN-organizations situated in Geneva. There is no reason to give away one of the most profitable routes in the whole group an let UA earn all the money. In fact, some even say, it is the only route in the whole Lufthansa group where the first class actually makes a profit...ContinentalEWR wrote:Cabin mods aren't really a major factor in an airline's decision (generally) to remove a type, notably if the size of the sub fleet is small. Delta got rid of 18 newly modified 777s and did that very quickly. I'd agree with you that the lift/payload is a factor here, as Swiss is flying a lot more cargo long haul than passenger right now, and yes the 340s have more range than the 330s. As to fuel, maintenance, parts, etc...4 x the number of engines add to the expense.
This - and the fact, that LX has plans for later that year, that include to cut the first class in half and introduce a premium economy product. So the modified cabins in the A340's are already wasted and would have to be modified again anyway. So the new cabins off the A340's aren't actually a valid argument.
777luver wrote:LucaDiMontanari wrote:
Regarding the premium economy product being introduced, is there a reason they didn't do that with the A340 mods? Seems like a lot of money to spend for a temporary mod just to re-modify it a short time later.
eurotrader85 wrote:Zurich airport is planning to extend the two shorter runways. Construction on the extensions won't start until 2030, and still needs to go through the Canton Parliament for debate (expect the NIMBYs and Greens to give their usual campaign against) but has been approved by the Cantonal government. Hopefully, we do see the construction happen, makes operational sense to extend those two runways.
Does anyone know, if the project has been approved by the Canton government, can a referendum still be called, potentially derailing it? Either through petition signatures or parliament?
https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/zurich-air ... s/46674420
debonair wrote:What the hell is going on in Oporto?! I found 3(!!!) flights in July on Fridays from ZRH to OPO:
LX2060 B777
LX2064 A321
LX2068 A320
On Thursday are 4 flights scheduled (3xLX/1xTP), albeit with smaller A320 family...
RJ100 wrote:Helvetic Airways has announced to base two aircraft in BSL as per July. Initial routes are to Santorin, Jerez, Larnaca and Pristina.
Interesting move-however it seems this is only the weekend schedule. I wonder what exactly is the plan for the rest of the week (flying for EW, LH, OS, SN or even LX?).
davidjohnson6 wrote:I can see Air Mountain selling various beach routes out of Switzerland. Are they a real airline with an AOC operating their own aircraft.... or are they just a travel agent ? If just a travel agent, who is doing the flying for them ?
https://air-mountain.ch/en
ANITIX87 wrote:In looking to book a trip to Switzerland, it looks like GVA-JFK non-stop is starting up again around October 30. Can anyone confirm the date for non-stops in both directions? For some reason, it also appears to be almost $400 more per person, round-trip, than stopping ZRH (or FRA/MUC/AMS/CDG with other carriers).
ContinentalEWR wrote:ANITIX87 wrote:In looking to book a trip to Switzerland, it looks like GVA-JFK non-stop is starting up again around October 30. Can anyone confirm the date for non-stops in both directions? For some reason, it also appears to be almost $400 more per person, round-trip, than stopping ZRH (or FRA/MUC/AMS/CDG with other carriers).
That's good to know the JFK-GVA-JFK nonstop is returning. Think LX will be the only operator. UA has no plans to bring back EWR-GVA for a while. That is why it is more expensive.
runway23 wrote:If the US doesn't reopen its borders to foreigners who have been to a Schengen country it's difficult to imagine any of those three flights returning before year end.
ANITIX87 wrote:runway23 wrote:If the US doesn't reopen its borders to foreigners who have been to a Schengen country it's difficult to imagine any of those three flights returning before year end.
They can be booked, based on what I've seen. What would happen to my fare if the flight doesn't come back?
(Also, shouldn't your username be 'runway22' if it's named after the runway at GVA?)