Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
SQ22
Moderator
Topic Author
Posts: 2371
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:29 am

Indiana State Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu Dec 31, 2020 3:24 pm

Welcome to the Indiana State Aviation Thread 2021. Please continue to post your news and your discussion here.

Link to previous thread:

Indiana State Aviation Thread - 2020
 
FWAERJ
Posts: 2842
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 1:23 am

Re: Indiana State Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Jan 01, 2021 8:40 pm

WN at SBN or FWA? Maybe both?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
SkyVoice
Posts: 505
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:34 pm

Re: Indiana State Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon Jan 04, 2021 4:22 am

FWAERJ wrote:
WN at SBN or FWA? Maybe both?


I don't think so, not anytime soon. But, once they get airborne, Breeze may be a real possibility for both!

Happy New Year! - SkyVoice
 
jetskipper
Posts: 577
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2001 1:50 am

Re: Indiana State Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:44 pm

Could any positive things happen to SBN with the former mayor nominated as the Secretary of Transportation?
 
freakyrat
Posts: 2364
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: Indiana State Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:24 am

jetskipper wrote:
Could any positive things happen to SBN with the former mayor nominated as the Secretary of Transportation?


SBN needs a lot of pavement updates. Taxiway B is getting a realignment and new pavement along with the airline parking ramp being rebuilt.

I cannot think of anymore things that can happen to SBN but Post-Covid Maybe Seasonal Allegiant service to MYR and Getting service to DEN and the NYC area resumed.
 
ibthebigd
Posts: 450
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:12 pm

Re: Indiana State Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:14 am

jetskipper wrote:
Could any positive things happen to SBN with the former mayor nominated as the Secretary of Transportation?
I know this is not Avation related but US 31 becoming I-67 to Grand Rapids could happen with a transportation spending bill

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 
freakyrat
Posts: 2364
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: Indiana State Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:51 am

One thing that appears to be happening at SBN in March but may change at the last minute is United is going to 9 nonstops to ORD but could drop back to 5

Delta also is looking to resume SBN-MSP in April.
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3549
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

Re: Indiana State Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:26 am

freakyrat wrote:
One thing that appears to be happening at SBN in March but may change at the last minute is United is going to 9 nonstops to ORD but could drop back to 5

Delta also is looking to resume SBN-MSP in April.


With what airplane? Won't be a Skywest 200, and I'm doubtful that a 900 will be on that route.
 
jetskipper
Posts: 577
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2001 1:50 am

Re: Indiana State Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:50 am

DiamondFlyer wrote:
freakyrat wrote:
One thing that appears to be happening at SBN in March but may change at the last minute is United is going to 9 nonstops to ORD but could drop back to 5

Delta also is looking to resume SBN-MSP in April.


With what airplane? Won't be a Skywest 200, and I'm doubtful that a 900 will be on that route.


Just looked on Delta.com and it’s showing a SkyWest CRJ-200, 7:05 am departure.
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3549
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

Re: Indiana State Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:03 pm

jetskipper wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:
freakyrat wrote:
One thing that appears to be happening at SBN in March but may change at the last minute is United is going to 9 nonstops to ORD but could drop back to 5

Delta also is looking to resume SBN-MSP in April.


With what airplane? Won't be a Skywest 200, and I'm doubtful that a 900 will be on that route.


Just looked on Delta.com and it’s showing a SkyWest CRJ-200, 7:05 am departure.


That’s interesting, because Skywest doesn’t do CPA 200 flying for Delta at this point. My guess is it hasn’t been updated or Skywest brought this one back at-risk
 
capitalflyer
Posts: 687
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 2:43 am

Re: Indiana State Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:14 pm

freakyrat wrote:
jetskipper wrote:
Could any positive things happen to SBN with the former mayor nominated as the Secretary of Transportation?


SBN needs a lot of pavement updates. Taxiway B is getting a realignment and new pavement along with the airline parking ramp being rebuilt.

I cannot think of anymore things that can happen to SBN but Post-Covid Maybe Seasonal Allegiant service to MYR and Getting service to DEN and the NYC area resumed.



Probably not likely, but how about extending 18/36 at SBN up to the Toll Road? That would make it 10k+ feet I imagine. Also position it for that SBN-DXB 380 flight.

Seriously though, when was the last time the runways were rebuilt? Not just repaved but dug out and rebuild. Some nice new concrete is always a great gift.

I would also perhaps look towards expanding the cargo ramp.
 
capitalflyer
Posts: 687
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 2:43 am

Re: Indiana State Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:23 pm

freakyrat wrote:
One thing that appears to be happening at SBN in March but may change at the last minute is United is going to 9 nonstops to ORD but could drop back to 5

Delta also is looking to resume SBN-MSP in April.


Probably drop back to 5x. Indiana is a mess COVID wise. But fall might look a bit more normal.

Which would SBN and FWA rather have, hourly flights to ORD and DTW or larger planes and half the flights? CR2/E45 12x or A221/A319 6x? Or perhaps E75/CR9 9x?

As a leisure passenger, the larger planes would be much better. But I imagine business types might prefer frequency? Unless they are premium.
 
jetskipper
Posts: 577
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2001 1:50 am

Re: Indiana State Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:42 pm

capitalflyer wrote:
freakyrat wrote:
One thing that appears to be happening at SBN in March but may change at the last minute is United is going to 9 nonstops to ORD but could drop back to 5

Delta also is looking to resume SBN-MSP in April.


Probably drop back to 5x. Indiana is a mess COVID wise. But fall might look a bit more normal.

Which would SBN and FWA rather have, hourly flights to ORD and DTW or larger planes and half the flights? CR2/E45 12x or A221/A319 6x? Or perhaps E75/CR9 9x?

As a leisure passenger, the larger planes would be much better. But I imagine business types might prefer frequency? Unless they are premium.


I did a sample booking on United.com, on April 1st it’s showing 10 flight from SBN-ORD, obviously some of those will be trimmed. That is too much lift even when times were great. One of those 10 flights is showing an E-175.
 
freakyrat
Posts: 2364
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: Indiana State Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:53 pm

jetskipper wrote:
capitalflyer wrote:
freakyrat wrote:
One thing that appears to be happening at SBN in March but may change at the last minute is United is going to 9 nonstops to ORD but could drop back to 5

Delta also is looking to resume SBN-MSP in April.


Probably drop back to 5x. Indiana is a mess COVID wise. But fall might look a bit more normal.

Which would SBN and FWA rather have, hourly flights to ORD and DTW or larger planes and half the flights? CR2/E45 12x or A221/A319 6x? Or perhaps E75/CR9 9x?

As a leisure passenger, the larger planes would be much better. But I imagine business types might prefer frequency? Unless they are premium.


I did a sample booking on United.com, on April 1st it’s showing 10 flight from SBN-ORD, obviously some of those will be trimmed. That is too much lift even when times were great. One of those 10 flights is showing an E-175.


Those will probably be trimmed back. I'm flying up to SBN from DFW over the 9/11 weekend for the rescheduled Indy Doobie Brothers Concert.
got a smokin deal of a fare on AA even on a Notre Dame Home weekend assuming they can have fans in the stands.

As far as for planes I'm sure to ATL they would Prefer the A221. ORD probably E75/CR9 . DTW CR2.
 
freakyrat
Posts: 2364
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: Indiana State Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:56 pm

The 10 flights a day to ORD on UA was originally planned because of the loss of bus service. Also for the ND football weekends. If things get back to normal in the fall I suppose UA will go to hourly flights to ORD.
 
freakyrat
Posts: 2364
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: Indiana State Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:35 pm

I might add Delta does have GSE equipment at SBN for the A221 and the ramp is marked out for it.
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3549
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

Re: Indiana State Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:11 pm

freakyrat wrote:
I might add Delta does have GSE equipment at SBN for the A221 and the ramp is marked out for it.


For diversions from ORD most likely. ATL doesn’t see many 221 departures, so to think SBN is going to get one is nuts
 
freakyrat
Posts: 2364
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: Indiana State Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat Jan 16, 2021 3:52 am

DiamondFlyer wrote:
freakyrat wrote:
I might add Delta does have GSE equipment at SBN for the A221 and the ramp is marked out for it.


For diversions from ORD most likely. ATL doesn’t see many 221 departures, so to think SBN is going to get one is nuts


SBN most likely will get A220's on next years Notre Dame home football weekends. This is because Delta Gates 5 and 6 can only fit 737's, 717's which are being phased out and the A220.
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3549
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

Re: Indiana State Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat Jan 16, 2021 3:56 am

freakyrat wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:
freakyrat wrote:
I might add Delta does have GSE equipment at SBN for the A221 and the ramp is marked out for it.


For diversions from ORD most likely. ATL doesn’t see many 221 departures, so to think SBN is going to get one is nuts


SBN most likely will get A220's on next years Notre Dame home football weekends. This is because Delta Gates 5 and 6 can only fit 737's, 717's which are being phased out and the A220.


I'd bet on 737's or 319s long before the 221 comes on a scheduled flight to SBN...

In terms of how SBN could improve, at least on the Delta side, it's get a new ramp contractor, and start with all new people. DGS is terrible in SBN (FWA for that matter too).
 
freakyrat
Posts: 2364
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: Indiana State Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat Jan 16, 2021 11:40 am

DiamondFlyer wrote:
freakyrat wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:

For diversions from ORD most likely. ATL doesn’t see many 221 departures, so to think SBN is going to get one is nuts


SBN most likely will get A220's on next years Notre Dame home football weekends. This is because Delta Gates 5 and 6 can only fit 737's, 717's which are being phased out and the A220.


I'd bet on 737's or 319s long before the 221 comes on a scheduled flight to SBN...

In terms of how SBN could improve, at least on the Delta side, it's get a new ramp contractor, and start with all new people. DGS is terrible in SBN (FWA for that matter too).


Delta has brought the A319's and 320's into SBN for scheduled flights on football weekends but they are restricted to the American and Allegiant gates. The ramp rebuild may get them some more sill height space to work with the jetways on Gates 5-8. Stll wouldn't be surprised if SBN sees an A221 on the DTW shuttle on ND football weekends as the A221 can use the regular Delta gates 5 and 6.
 
freakyrat
Posts: 2364
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: Indiana State Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat Jan 16, 2021 11:46 pm

Delta is keeping the B717's until 2025 and phasing out the CRJ200's by 2023. So SBN and FWA will probably get a mix of B717 mainline and CRJ900's from Endeavor to Atlanta once traffic recovers to pre-Covid levels. Delta has these and other airplanes they can throw in the mix for flights to ATL and MSP. Not sure what they will use for flights to DTW when the CRJ200's arew retired.
 
gdavis003
Posts: 1045
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:59 am

Re: Indiana State Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat Jan 16, 2021 11:59 pm

Hope someone in Lafayette was able to catch this landing or is able to catch its departure. Ameristar 737-200 bringing in Penn State to face Purdue. A rare sight these days. https://flightaware.com/live/flight/AJI ... /KUNV/KLAF
 
freakyrat
Posts: 2364
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: Indiana State Aviation Thread - 2021

Sun Jan 17, 2021 2:06 am

gdavis003 wrote:
Hope someone in Lafayette was able to catch this landing or is able to catch its departure. Ameristar 737-200 bringing in Penn State to face Purdue. A rare sight these days. https://flightaware.com/live/flight/AJI ... /KUNV/KLAF


N467TW a very pretty looking B737-200.

https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/9540957
 
jetskipper
Posts: 577
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2001 1:50 am

Re: Indiana State Aviation Thread - 2021

Sun Jan 17, 2021 4:21 pm

Wow, that is a good looking -200. Bet you could hear that thing takeoff from 10 miles away! Miss when the major airlines would send 737-200s, DC-9-30/50s and F100s to small markets. The good old days...
 
umichman
Posts: 277
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:42 am

Re: Indiana State Aviation Thread - 2021

Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:58 pm

jetskipper wrote:
capitalflyer wrote:
freakyrat wrote:
One thing that appears to be happening at SBN in March but may change at the last minute is United is going to 9 nonstops to ORD but could drop back to 5

Delta also is looking to resume SBN-MSP in April.


Probably drop back to 5x. Indiana is a mess COVID wise. But fall might look a bit more normal.

Which would SBN and FWA rather have, hourly flights to ORD and DTW or larger planes and half the flights? CR2/E45 12x or A221/A319 6x? Or perhaps E75/CR9 9x?

As a leisure passenger, the larger planes would be much better. But I imagine business types might prefer frequency? Unless they are premium.


I did a sample booking on United.com, on April 1st it’s showing 10 flight from SBN-ORD, obviously some of those will be trimmed. That is too much lift even when times were great. One of those 10 flights is showing an E-175.


AA/UA have only significantly trimmed their domestic schedules through March 3rd (Delta has currently fixed theirs through March 1st). Flights in the schedules after these dates are often simply pre-Covid schedules and most will get lots of cutbacks. ORD-SBN is not going from 2x daily to 10x daily on March 4th (nor is it likely to go to 5x daily). At best, it might get a 3rd daily flight. This process has been going on for many months now -- airlines waiting until about 4-6 weeks before the start of the month to fix their schedule for the month. Looking at flight schedules beyond this window gives the false impression that there are significant adds in the future when the reality is that they just haven't loaded very many cutbacks to these future schedules yet.
 
jplatts
Posts: 4891
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: Indiana State Aviation Thread - 2021

Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:39 pm

SkyVoice wrote:
FWAERJ wrote:
WN at SBN or FWA? Maybe both?


I don't think so, not anytime soon. But, once they get airborne, Breeze may be a real possibility for both!


There are some U.S. markets not served by WN in the contiguous U.S., Alaska, and USVI that carried more domestic passengers in 2019 than SBN or FWA did, and WN is more likely to add service to markets that carried more domestic passengers than SBN or FWA.
 
freakyrat
Posts: 2364
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: Indiana State Aviation Thread - 2021

Sun Jan 17, 2021 11:28 pm

jplatts wrote:
SkyVoice wrote:
FWAERJ wrote:
WN at SBN or FWA? Maybe both?


I don't think so, not anytime soon. But, once they get airborne, Breeze may be a real possibility for both!


There are some U.S. markets not served by WN in the contiguous U.S., Alaska, and USVI that carried more domestic passengers in 2019 than SBN or FWA did, and WN is more likely to add service to markets that carried more domestic passengers than SBN or FWA.


WN would dillute SBN and FWA's passenger loads to the other airlines. SBN had a record year in 2019 with over 830,000 airline passengers served. It is going to be a good while before they hit that mark again.
 
FWAERJ
Posts: 2842
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 1:23 am

Re: Indiana State Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon Jan 18, 2021 2:30 am

freakyrat wrote:
jplatts wrote:
SkyVoice wrote:

I don't think so, not anytime soon. But, once they get airborne, Breeze may be a real possibility for both!


There are some U.S. markets not served by WN in the contiguous U.S., Alaska, and USVI that carried more domestic passengers in 2019 than SBN or FWA did, and WN is more likely to add service to markets that carried more domestic passengers than SBN or FWA.


WN would dillute SBN and FWA's passenger loads to the other airlines. SBN had a record year in 2019 with over 830,000 airline passengers served. It is going to be a good while before they hit that mark again.


You'd be surprised to see how much of Fort Wayne goes to IND or MDW just to fly WN.

Those are the types of cities WN is often targeting for new cities.
 
Tan Flyr
Posts: 1749
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2000 11:07 pm

Re: Indiana State Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:36 pm

FWAERJ wrote:
freakyrat wrote:
jplatts wrote:

There are some U.S. markets not served by WN in the contiguous U.S., Alaska, and USVI that carried more domestic passengers in 2019 than SBN or FWA did, and WN is more likely to add service to markets that carried more domestic passengers than SBN or FWA.


WN would dillute SBN and FWA's passenger loads to the other airlines. SBN had a record year in 2019 with over 830,000 airline passengers served. It is going to be a good while before they hit that mark again.


You'd be surprised to see how much of Fort Wayne goes to IND or MDW just to fly WN.

Those are the types of cities WN is often targeting for new cities.


As you may have heard, Southwest is adding SBA and FAT here in CA. (a thread or 2 on this event is available) That said, while Santa Barbara itself is not that big, but when you add the population of Ventura County and San Luis Obispo County to Santa Barbara you get decent numbers.The Fresno metro area is close a million (depends on who is counting) but not as demographically affluent as the SBA area.
My point is Southwest is putting planes that would have been used on more hi traffic business routes to say DAL/HOU/MDW, etc into new markets with a different mix of traffic.While schedules have yet to be released, speculation is rampant, but seems to focus that each possible get 1 R/T to OAK, 2-3 to LAS, and then either a PHX or DEN. Applying that same line of logic FWA or SBN if they were to get Southwest I would guess at at least 1 MDW round trip per day, then perhaps also a LAS, a BWI or 2 daily ,and at least 1 DEN round trip. You could always throw in a possible STL or BNA for other connection opportunities. Just speculation totally on my part..but since UA can't seem to ever decide to get back into DEN from FWA & SBN I would think DEN would be the longest and almost a sure bet if they were to start service.
 
freakyrat
Posts: 2364
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: Indiana State Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:51 pm

Tan Flyr wrote:
FWAERJ wrote:
freakyrat wrote:

WN would dillute SBN and FWA's passenger loads to the other airlines. SBN had a record year in 2019 with over 830,000 airline passengers served. It is going to be a good while before they hit that mark again.


You'd be surprised to see how much of Fort Wayne goes to IND or MDW just to fly WN.

Those are the types of cities WN is often targeting for new cities.


As you may have heard, Southwest is adding SBA and FAT here in CA. (a thread or 2 on this event is available) That said, while Santa Barbara itself is not that big, but when you add the population of Ventura County and San Luis Obispo County to Santa Barbara you get decent numbers.The Fresno metro area is close a million (depends on who is counting) but not as demographically affluent as the SBA area.
My point is Southwest is putting planes that would have been used on more hi traffic business routes to say DAL/HOU/MDW, etc into new markets with a different mix of traffic.While schedules have yet to be released, speculation is rampant, but seems to focus that each possible get 1 R/T to OAK, 2-3 to LAS, and then either a PHX or DEN. Applying that same line of logic FWA or SBN if they were to get Southwest I would guess at at least 1 MDW round trip per day, then perhaps also a LAS, a BWI or 2 daily ,and at least 1 DEN round trip. You could always throw in a possible STL or BNA for other connection opportunities. Just speculation totally on my part..but since UA can't seem to ever decide to get back into DEN from FWA & SBN I would think DEN would be the longest and almost a sure bet if they were to start service.


I agree on DEN. F9 before they went from a connecting carrier to an ULCC and pulled out of SBN since the SBN traffic mix did not fit the new ULCC model, averaged 118 passengers per flight on a 139 seat A319 and three flights a week. This is what I cannot understand about UA. Local UA folks have the data and said that they could definitely fill 2 daily E175 flights to DEN. As far as WN goes I could see 1 MDW and 1 DEN roundtrip. LAS is covered by G4. Surprisingly before UA pulled RJ flights out of EWR and shifted them to IAD most SBN passengers were making connections to BOS from SBN and those would be covered by the MDW flight. I do not know how the DOT measures things but while UA was flying that RJ to EWR out of SBN the DOT listed BOS as a high demand market out of SBN so they must have included passengers connecting in DTW from DL. Covid kind of messed with things but AA still has plans for a daily PHL flight from SBN which would cover the NYC area and BOS connections.

In summation. You and I do not know what UA's problem is with DEN. They have the data. The west coast connections would be better at DEN than ORD. They could fly 2 daily E175 flights or 1 daily mainline Airbus A319. F9 flew about 150 flights whie they were in SBN and grossed about 4.5 million dollars from those flights based on average airfares and it doesn't count bag fees and other ancillary revenue. I guess UA just thinks that post Covid hourly service (10 flights) from SBN to ORD will cover all connections.
 
ibthebigd
Posts: 450
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:12 pm

Re: Indiana State Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Jan 26, 2021 10:22 am

President Mitch Daniels started by sharing his goal of bringing commercial air service to Tippecanoe County. At about 70 miles away from the Indianapolis International Airport, Purdue is at the bottom of the Big 10 schools list for distance away from a commercial airport, and he wants to change that.



https://www.wlfi.com/content/news/Comme ... 60401.html


Who would LAF try to get?

DL to DTW would make most sense to me.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 6304
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Indiana State Aviation Thread - 2021

Sun Jan 31, 2021 3:59 pm

ibthebigd wrote:
President Mitch Daniels started by sharing his goal of bringing commercial air service to Tippecanoe County. At about 70 miles away from the Indianapolis International Airport, Purdue is at the bottom of the Big 10 schools list for distance away from a commercial airport, and he wants to change that.



https://www.wlfi.com/content/news/Comme ... 60401.html


Who would LAF try to get?

DL to DTW would make most sense to me.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


I've spoken to an airline about LAF before, they know there is demand because they can see the ticket origin(zip code where ticket was purchased) even if the passengers end up flying out of IND or ORD.

Service will probably be UA or AA on LAF-ORD & DFW or CLT similar to CMI, which is essentially the same distance from ORD as LAF.

It's only a matter of time, although it will hurt IND the most.
 
Ishrion
Posts: 3637
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:17 am

Re: Indiana State Aviation Thread - 2021

Sun Jan 31, 2021 4:17 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
ibthebigd wrote:
President Mitch Daniels started by sharing his goal of bringing commercial air service to Tippecanoe County. At about 70 miles away from the Indianapolis International Airport, Purdue is at the bottom of the Big 10 schools list for distance away from a commercial airport, and he wants to change that.



https://www.wlfi.com/content/news/Comme ... 60401.html


Who would LAF try to get?

DL to DTW would make most sense to me.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


I've spoken to an airline about LAF before, they know there is demand because they can see the ticket origin(zip code where ticket was purchased) even if the passengers end up flying out of IND or ORD.

Service will probably be UA or AA on LAF-ORD & DFW or CLT similar to CMI, which is essentially the same distance from ORD as LAF.

It's only a matter of time, although it will hurt IND the most.


AA DFW-LAF would be amazing... I might end up going to Purdue and a nonstop sounds better than DFW-IND and driving a few hours.

DFW-ORD-LAF sounds great as well.
 
freakyrat
Posts: 2364
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: Indiana State Aviation Thread - 2021

Sun Jan 31, 2021 6:10 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
ibthebigd wrote:
President Mitch Daniels started by sharing his goal of bringing commercial air service to Tippecanoe County. At about 70 miles away from the Indianapolis International Airport, Purdue is at the bottom of the Big 10 schools list for distance away from a commercial airport, and he wants to change that.



https://www.wlfi.com/content/news/Comme ... 60401.html


Who would LAF try to get?

DL to DTW would make most sense to me.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


I've spoken to an airline about LAF before, they know there is demand because they can see the ticket origin(zip code where ticket was purchased) even if the passengers end up flying out of IND or ORD.

Service will probably be UA or AA on LAF-ORD & DFW or CLT similar to CMI, which is essentially the same distance from ORD as LAF.

It's only a matter of time, although it will hurt IND the most.


If AA comes into LAF, the destinations served would depend on where LAF passengers who fly out of IND or ORD were travelling as their final destinations. When AA resumed flying at SBN they chose DFW and threw in a bonus of CLT because traffic surveys showed that passengers at the time who were driving to ORD or MDW or connecting thru ORD were flying to Texas with the majority going to Dallas-Fort Worth and Houston and the rest going to the Austin-San Antonio area. CLT was thrown in for passengers connecting up and down the east coast.
 
Tan Flyr
Posts: 1749
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2000 11:07 pm

Re: Indiana State Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Feb 02, 2021 12:30 pm

The interesting stats to see would be the general traffic flows of folks from the Lafayette area Zip codes when they do fly out of IND or ORD/ MDW.Then the actual counts of those flows..naturally somebody, probably even Mitch, has access to those. The question is how much (percentage) of the "leakage" can you convert to using LAF.
Deals on parking, etc, help a bit. but the fares have to be in line with IND/ORD, and a solid case for organic growth of the market. Simply shifting x pax per day from IND or CHI area airports to LAF does little, if anything to the bottom lines of carriers.
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3549
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

Re: Indiana State Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Feb 02, 2021 4:51 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
ibthebigd wrote:
President Mitch Daniels started by sharing his goal of bringing commercial air service to Tippecanoe County. At about 70 miles away from the Indianapolis International Airport, Purdue is at the bottom of the Big 10 schools list for distance away from a commercial airport, and he wants to change that.



https://www.wlfi.com/content/news/Comme ... 60401.html


Who would LAF try to get?

DL to DTW would make most sense to me.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


I've spoken to an airline about LAF before, they know there is demand because they can see the ticket origin(zip code where ticket was purchased) even if the passengers end up flying out of IND or ORD.

Service will probably be UA or AA on LAF-ORD & DFW or CLT similar to CMI, which is essentially the same distance from ORD as LAF.

It's only a matter of time, although it will hurt IND the most.


I think you all are forgetting the biggest issue. 50 seat jets are done, they'll be gone in 5-8 years for the most part. I just don't see LAF getting any kind of service, heck, the state will be lucky if SBN/EVV/FWA get back to the flying they had pre-covid.
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 6304
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Indiana State Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed Feb 03, 2021 4:46 pm

Tan Flyr wrote:
The interesting stats to see would be the general traffic flows of folks from the Lafayette area Zip codes when they do fly out of IND or ORD/ MDW.Then the actual counts of those flows..naturally somebody, probably even Mitch, has access to those. The question is how much (percentage) of the "leakage" can you convert to using LAF.
Deals on parking, etc, help a bit. but the fares have to be in line with IND/ORD, and a solid case for organic growth of the market. Simply shifting x pax per day from IND or CHI area airports to LAF does little, if anything to the bottom lines of carriers.


I don’t necessarily agree on the fare element here.

The fares don’t need to be in line with ORD or IND, to an extent. A premium would most certainly be charged for passengers flying in/out of LAF, but that premium in air fare would be at least somewhat offset by savings in gas, parking, and drive time.

Not to mention AA or UA wouldnt necessarily only be shifting pax from IND to LAF, but also capturing new passengers who may have chosen DL, WN, G4, etc and converting them to AA or UA given it is much more convenient for them now.

DiamondFlyer wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
ibthebigd wrote:
President Mitch Daniels started by sharing his goal of bringing commercial air service to Tippecanoe County. At about 70 miles away from the Indianapolis International Airport, Purdue is at the bottom of the Big 10 schools list for distance away from a commercial airport, and he wants to change that.



https://www.wlfi.com/content/news/Comme ... 60401.html


Who would LAF try to get?

DL to DTW would make most sense to me.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


I've spoken to an airline about LAF before, they know there is demand because they can see the ticket origin(zip code where ticket was purchased) even if the passengers end up flying out of IND or ORD.

Service will probably be UA or AA on LAF-ORD & DFW or CLT similar to CMI, which is essentially the same distance from ORD as LAF.

It's only a matter of time, although it will hurt IND the most.


I think you all are forgetting the biggest issue. 50 seat jets are done, they'll be gone in 5-8 years for the most part. I just don't see LAF getting any kind of service, heck, the state will be lucky if SBN/EVV/FWA get back to the flying they had pre-covid.


Not sure why SBN, EVV, or FWA matter here. LAF is the fastest growing metro in the state of Indiana, and service at those airports don’t impact LAF at all.
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3549
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

Re: Indiana State Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed Feb 03, 2021 5:40 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
Tan Flyr wrote:
The interesting stats to see would be the general traffic flows of folks from the Lafayette area Zip codes when they do fly out of IND or ORD/ MDW.Then the actual counts of those flows..naturally somebody, probably even Mitch, has access to those. The question is how much (percentage) of the "leakage" can you convert to using LAF.
Deals on parking, etc, help a bit. but the fares have to be in line with IND/ORD, and a solid case for organic growth of the market. Simply shifting x pax per day from IND or CHI area airports to LAF does little, if anything to the bottom lines of carriers.


I don’t necessarily agree on the fare element here.

The fares don’t need to be in line with ORD or IND, to an extent. A premium would most certainly be charged for passengers flying in/out of LAF, but that premium in air fare would be at least somewhat offset by savings in gas, parking, and drive time.

Not to mention AA or UA wouldnt necessarily only be shifting pax from IND to LAF, but also capturing new passengers who may have chosen DL, WN, G4, etc and converting them to AA or UA given it is much more convenient for them now.

DiamondFlyer wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

I've spoken to an airline about LAF before, they know there is demand because they can see the ticket origin(zip code where ticket was purchased) even if the passengers end up flying out of IND or ORD.

Service will probably be UA or AA on LAF-ORD & DFW or CLT similar to CMI, which is essentially the same distance from ORD as LAF.

It's only a matter of time, although it will hurt IND the most.


I think you all are forgetting the biggest issue. 50 seat jets are done, they'll be gone in 5-8 years for the most part. I just don't see LAF getting any kind of service, heck, the state will be lucky if SBN/EVV/FWA get back to the flying they had pre-covid.


Not sure why SBN, EVV, or FWA matter here. LAF is the fastest growing metro in the state of Indiana, and service at those airports don’t impact LAF at all.


Because cities with established service are going to struggle to maintain it, let alone get new growth in the next 3 years. Why an airport that would need tons of money spent to even get it an option for a 121 carrier would be considered, is beyond me. Cities within 150 miles of a major hub are likely to lose service with 50 seaters going out of style, so why should one within that distance of a large hub city, and multiple other cities with service, even be considered.

Growth or not, LAF will not get airline service.
 
freakyrat
Posts: 2364
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: Indiana State Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:59 am

It will be hard to tell if and when SBN will get back to 2019's record year for enplanements Post-Covid however enplanements were only down 50% in 2020 over 2019. Small airports may still bounce back over larger ones. Yes 50 seaters will be through in a couple of years. As far as Delta goes at SBN, ATL flights were always planned to go to Endeavor's larger jets likewise the two dailys to MSP when they get resumed. DTW is the lone guestimate as what Delta will use because the larger jets do not make sense except for the flight that connects to the International bank. United's ORD flights have had Skywest E175's before and also Mesa CRJ7's and who knows what Air Wisconsin will operate in a few years. Maybe United will throw in a few DEN flights for balanced connecting opportunities and in that case the larger jets would make more sense. As far as these full service carriers go, right now American is Ruling the Airport.
 
FWAERJ
Posts: 2842
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 1:23 am

Re: Indiana State Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu Feb 04, 2021 1:59 pm

freakyrat wrote:
It will be hard to tell if and when SBN will get back to 2019's record year for enplanements Post-Covid however enplanements were only down 50% in 2020 over 2019. Small airports may still bounce back over larger ones. Yes 50 seaters will be through in a couple of years. As far as Delta goes at SBN, ATL flights were always planned to go to Endeavor's larger jets likewise the two dailys to MSP when they get resumed. DTW is the lone guestimate as what Delta will use because the larger jets do not make sense except for the flight that connects to the International bank. United's ORD flights have had Skywest E175's before and also Mesa CRJ7's and who knows what Air Wisconsin will operate in a few years. Maybe United will throw in a few DEN flights for balanced connecting opportunities and in that case the larger jets would make more sense. As far as these full service carriers go, right now American is Ruling the Airport.


Same at FWA. AA leads in network carriers and G4 leads in leisure carriers. Together, they hold 2/3rds of traffic at FWA.
 
freakyrat
Posts: 2364
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: Indiana State Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:17 pm

FWAERJ wrote:

Same at FWA. AA leads in network carriers and G4 leads in leisure carriers. Together, they hold 2/3rds of traffic at FWA.


Yeah Delta is getting smashed by American at SBN because They cut back flights and never moved to Endeavor's larger jets with First Class and Premium Economy seating. Post Covid Delta needs to introduce a Premium product to get their market share back.
You just cannot be flying people to ATL on a skimpy 50-seater. Same for MSP.

G4 is G4 and is the top leisure carrier at both airports and will recover faster when things start to open up more.
 
freakyrat
Posts: 2364
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: Indiana State Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Feb 09, 2021 3:24 pm

Looks like Delta has high hopes for a traffic rebound by April as finally they will resume SBN-MSP flights.
DL MSP-SBN APR 1.0>0.6[1.6]
 
freakyrat
Posts: 2364
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: Indiana State Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:03 am

freakyrat wrote:
Looks like Delta has high hopes for a traffic rebound by April as finally they will resume SBN-MSP flights.
DL MSP-SBN APR 1.0>0.6[1.6]


Delta just removed the flight again.
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3549
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

Re: Indiana State Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed Feb 24, 2021 1:04 am

freakyrat wrote:
freakyrat wrote:
Looks like Delta has high hopes for a traffic rebound by April as finally they will resume SBN-MSP flights.
DL MSP-SBN APR 1.0>0.6[1.6]


Delta just removed the flight again.


Not surprising, consider the number of CR2's that have left the network in the last 6 months. I'd be shocked if it ever comes back.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 1718
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: Indiana State Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:21 am

ibthebigd wrote:
President Mitch Daniels started by sharing his goal of bringing commercial air service to Tippecanoe County. At about 70 miles away from the Indianapolis International Airport, Purdue is at the bottom of the Big 10 schools list for distance away from a commercial airport, and he wants to change that.



https://www.wlfi.com/content/news/Comme ... 60401.html


Who would LAF try to get?

DL to DTW would make most sense to me.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Mesaba used to fill four metros daily from LAF, and this was in competition to AA ATR’s to ORD. When they got rid of the Saab’s, it went to two a day, with poor timing on the Saab’s, eventually being combined with BEH, at least once a day. When NW pulled out, Great Mistakes came in with Beech 1900’s three or four times a day to ORD, plus the occasional EMB.

But, being in the FAA’s first tier to ORD meant frequent cancels on nearly every stormy day, summer or winter. That, combined with GL’s renowned unreliability, drove the traffic, which was largely premium connecting to International, away. Toward the end, it was combined upline with HUF, which made it even more unreliable. Add in the political situation within Purdue before Daniels got there, for even more fun.

I have long felt, pre-COVID, that LAF would be an excellent down line RON for a CRJ over SBN or FWA to the East Coast(EWR, DC, or JFK). When Purdue travels, they easily fill as much capacity as can be provided. Most inbound traffic is Industry, Financial, or Purdue related. But when they don’t (summer for example) it relies on the area for traffic, that leaks big to Indy, with some going to ORD or MDW.

But to be successful today (after COVID), it would have to be directed away from ORD to be seen as reliable. Perhaps combined down line with CMI? Both have similar traffic profiles.
 
User avatar
Boiler905
Posts: 119
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:05 am

Re: Indiana State Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:21 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Tan Flyr wrote:
The interesting stats to see would be the general traffic flows of folks from the Lafayette area Zip codes when they do fly out of IND or ORD/ MDW.Then the actual counts of those flows..naturally somebody, probably even Mitch, has access to those. The question is how much (percentage) of the "leakage" can you convert to using LAF.
Deals on parking, etc, help a bit. but the fares have to be in line with IND/ORD, and a solid case for organic growth of the market. Simply shifting x pax per day from IND or CHI area airports to LAF does little, if anything to the bottom lines of carriers.


I don’t necessarily agree on the fare element here.

The fares don’t need to be in line with ORD or IND, to an extent. A premium would most certainly be charged for passengers flying in/out of LAF, but that premium in air fare would be at least somewhat offset by savings in gas, parking, and drive time.

Not to mention AA or UA wouldnt necessarily only be shifting pax from IND to LAF, but also capturing new passengers who may have chosen DL, WN, G4, etc and converting them to AA or UA given it is much more convenient for them now.

DiamondFlyer wrote:

I think you all are forgetting the biggest issue. 50 seat jets are done, they'll be gone in 5-8 years for the most part. I just don't see LAF getting any kind of service, heck, the state will be lucky if SBN/EVV/FWA get back to the flying they had pre-covid.


Not sure why SBN, EVV, or FWA matter here. LAF is the fastest growing metro in the state of Indiana, and service at those airports don’t impact LAF at all.


Because cities with established service are going to struggle to maintain it, let alone get new growth in the next 3 years. Why an airport that would need tons of money spent to even get it an option for a 121 carrier would be considered, is beyond me. Cities within 150 miles of a major hub are likely to lose service with 50 seaters going out of style, so why should one within that distance of a large hub city, and multiple other cities with service, even be considered.

Growth or not, LAF will not get airline service.


If LAF gets service, which is more possible now than in the last 15 years but still hard to imagine, it will be on a carrier like G4 with less than daily and leisure O&Ds.

@DiamondFlyer, I think you're overlooking the many examples such as JQF on G4, right next to the city of CLT yet has service to 8 destinations. I agree with you that legacy airline service will not return but I think these lower cost airline models with more flexible schedules and fleets will be the ones to capitalize on a difficult-to-make-work market like LAF.
 
freakyrat
Posts: 2364
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: Indiana State Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed Feb 24, 2021 7:05 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
freakyrat wrote:
freakyrat wrote:
Looks like Delta has high hopes for a traffic rebound by April as finally they will resume SBN-MSP flights.
DL MSP-SBN APR 1.0>0.6[1.6]


Delta just removed the flight again.


Not surprising, consider the number of CR2's that have left the network in the last 6 months. I'd be shocked if it ever comes back.


American has also been kicking their butt at SBN and offers First Class seating and did not cut back much because of the Pandemic. The Air Travel Demographics at South Bend also favor the DFW area first over MSP and secondary market travel to BOS and NYC and AA through CLT and DL through DTW satisfy that. DL will also have to offer Endeavor CRJ9's to ATL post pandemic to better compete with AA.

UA will most likely return the seasonal EWR flight next fall.
 
FWAERJ
Posts: 2842
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 1:23 am

Re: Indiana State Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed Feb 24, 2021 7:42 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
ibthebigd wrote:
President Mitch Daniels started by sharing his goal of bringing commercial air service to Tippecanoe County. At about 70 miles away from the Indianapolis International Airport, Purdue is at the bottom of the Big 10 schools list for distance away from a commercial airport, and he wants to change that.



https://www.wlfi.com/content/news/Comme ... 60401.html


Who would LAF try to get?

DL to DTW would make most sense to me.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Mesaba used to fill four metros daily from LAF, and this was in competition to AA ATR’s to ORD. When they got rid of the Saab’s, it went to two a day, with poor timing on the Saab’s, eventually being combined with BEH, at least once a day. When NW pulled out, Great Mistakes came in with Beech 1900’s three or four times a day to ORD, plus the occasional EMB.

But, being in the FAA’s first tier to ORD meant frequent cancels on nearly every stormy day, summer or winter. That, combined with GL’s renowned unreliability, drove the traffic, which was largely premium connecting to International, away. Toward the end, it was combined upline with HUF, which made it even more unreliable. Add in the political situation within Purdue before Daniels got there, for even more fun.

I have long felt, pre-COVID, that LAF would be an excellent down line RON for a CRJ over SBN or FWA to the East Coast(EWR, DC, or JFK). When Purdue travels, they easily fill as much capacity as can be provided. Most inbound traffic is Industry, Financial, or Purdue related. But when they don’t (summer for example) it relies on the area for traffic, that leaks big to Indy, with some going to ORD or MDW.

But to be successful today (after COVID), it would have to be directed away from ORD to be seen as reliable. Perhaps combined down line with CMI? Both have similar traffic profiles.

After Great Lakes came the return of Mesaba for a bit using the SAAB, and then RegionsAir to the now-closed AA STL hub.

LAF-STL ended in 2005, and commercial air service has not returned to LAF since.

I’d feel that United Express/OO to ORD 3x daily CR2s is most likely as UA isn’t drawing down 50 seaters the way DL is. That and 2x weekly G4 to SFB.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
SkyVoice
Posts: 505
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:34 pm

Re: Indiana State Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu Feb 25, 2021 5:17 am

Do any of you see a return of limited airline service to Terre Haute (Hulman Field, HUF)?
 
jetskipper
Posts: 577
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2001 1:50 am

Re: Indiana State Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu Feb 25, 2021 5:39 am

SkyVoice wrote:
Do any of you see a return of limited airline service to Terre Haute (Hulman Field, HUF)?


I would be highly suspect. When the Great Lakes HUF-LAF-ORD service ended in 1998 the boarding sat HUF were 5-6 pax at most. The majority of the hoardings were at LAF. IND is only an hour drive.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos