Welcome to the Orlando Aviation Thread 2021. Please continue to post your news and your discussion here.

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Orlando Aviation Thread - 2020

Any 2020 predictions for MCO? The Hawaiian add was out of left field so anything can happen.

flymco753 wrote:

Any 2020 predictions for MCO? The Hawaiian add was out of left field so anything can happen.

Probably not much other than expected seasonal routes with Frontier and Spirit. I can see Southwest to LAX, IAH, and ORD kick starting by Summer 2021. COVID definitely delayed any substantial international expansion by a few years. With JetBlue positioned to take over the new terminal in 2022, new additional service is always a possibility.

Scraig08 wrote:

flymco753 wrote:

Any 2020 predictions for MCO? The Hawaiian add was out of left field so anything can happen.

Probably not much other than expected seasonal routes with Frontier and Spirit. I can see Southwest to LAX, IAH, and ORD kick starting by Summer 2021. COVID definitely delayed any substantial international expansion by a few years. With JetBlue positioned to take over the new terminal in 2022, new additional service is always a possibility.

That sounds about right. Asia is obviously back burner now.

Taking the discussion from 2020 and bringing it here, I provided an article in which Delta stated they plan to remain a key part in MCO's market moving forward. Having ended a ton of weekend flights, where else could they go?

I don't see IND, CUN, & AMS being completely gone, AMS was solid. Next up could be the introduction of the A220-100 on RDU & add AUS on an A221. Considering that WN & F9 are the only two flying to LAS, I can see a 738 to LAS.

flymco753 wrote:

Taking the discussion from 2020 and bringing it here, I provided an article in which Delta stated they plan to remain a key part in MCO's market moving forward.

Do you have a link to the article? I can't find it, thanks.

flymco753 wrote:

Having ended a ton of weekend flights, where else could they go? I don't see IND, CUN, & AMS being completely gone, AMS was solid. Next up could be the introduction of the A220-100 on RDU & add AUS on an A221. Considering that WN & F9 are the only two flying to LAS, I can see a 738 to LAS.

It will be interesting to see what happens with DL in MCO. On one hand you have demand to FL pretty strong because of the warm weather and the fact that things are "open". On the other hand you have the fact that Ed has said we will be a smaller airline and we have already retired a lot of aircraft. Due to this I don't really see much change in MCO except for increased frequencies to hubs and/or upgauging aircraft as needed.

BDL757 wrote:

flymco753 wrote:

Taking the discussion from 2020 and bringing it here, I provided an article in which Delta stated they plan to remain a key part in MCO's market moving forward.

Do you have a link to the article? I can't find it, thanks.

flymco753 wrote:

Having ended a ton of weekend flights, where else could they go? I don't see IND, CUN, & AMS being completely gone, AMS was solid. Next up could be the introduction of the A220-100 on RDU & add AUS on an A221. Considering that WN & F9 are the only two flying to LAS, I can see a 738 to LAS.

It will be interesting to see what happens with DL in MCO. On one hand you have demand to FL pretty strong because of the warm weather and the fact that things are "open". On the other hand you have the fact that Ed has said we will be a smaller airline and we have already retired a lot of aircraft. Due to this I don't really see much change in MCO except for increased frequencies to hubs and/or upgauging aircraft as needed.

Here is the link by the Orlando Sentinel: https://www.orlandosentinel.com/coronav ... story.html

It seems like airlines are gearing towards leisure for now, and since DL has a good FF base in both LAS & MCO it might be a good thing to consider as with the resumption of CUN in the short term.

I hope that in 2021 we get more information about the new south terminal and that its construction stays on schedule for completion in early 2022.

All the talk about increased service by Frontier, Spirit and even Southwest does nothing for me. Things will only improve when the big ones come back. VIrgin, British, Lufthansa, and LATAM, though it will never be the same....

Delta starting MCOLAS would actually be a resumption of service, if my memory serves. They last flew this about ten years ago?


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ArcticSEA wrote:

Delta starting MCOLAS would actually be a resumption of service, if my memory serves. They last flew this about ten years ago?

Correct, and with leisure travel leading the way to recovery, it would be a welcoming addition to connect America's entertainment capitals.

DL used to run a fair amount of RJ flights out of MCO to some mid/major cities about five years ago. If my memory serves me right, these included CMH, BHM, BNA, and maybe a few others? They were seasonal. I’m struggling to remember all of them and if those that I listed are accurate. I’d be interested to see if that returns at some point with increased leisure flying

gdavis003 wrote:

DL used to run a fair amount of RJ flights out of MCO to some mid/major cities about five years ago. If my memory serves me right, these included CMH, BHM, BNA, and maybe a few others? They were seasonal. I’m struggling to remember all of them and if those that I listed are accurate. I’d be interested to see if that returns at some point with increased leisure flying

DL had a small hub/Comair base in the 90s. If you go into the old timetables you’ll see that the DL wing was extremely busy. DL at one point had announced several Latin American routes from MCO that never materialized.

MCO starts 2021 as the busiest departures airport in the nation.

https://orlandoairports.net/press/2021/ ... epartures/

Rookinla wrote:

gdavis003 wrote:

DL used to run a fair amount of RJ flights out of MCO to some mid/major cities about five years ago. If my memory serves me right, these included CMH, BHM, BNA, and maybe a few others? They were seasonal. I’m struggling to remember all of them and if those that I listed are accurate. I’d be interested to see if that returns at some point with increased leisure flying

DL had a small hub/Comair base in the 90s. If you go into the old timetables you’ll see that the DL wing was extremely busy. DL at one point had announced several Latin American routes from MCO that never materialized.

They'll never get to that size again, but it's not impossible to say that we could play a very important role as a leisure destination in DL's network moving forward.

I believe it was on last year's thread, if not 2018 where someone broke down who is going to Terminal C and who is staying at the airsides.

I believe it looked like this:

Airside 1: Spirit, Frontier, Air Canada, Air Transat, Sunwing, Sun Country, Westjet, Swoop

Airside 2: Alaska, Southwest

Airside 3: American, United

Airside 4: Aeromexico, Avianca, Bahamasair, British Airways, Caribbean, Copa, Delta, Edelweiss, GOL, LATAM, Lufthansa, Norwegian, Virgin, Volaris (probably Delta in the 70's & 80's, Aeromexico, Virgin, & LATAM in 80's and the remaining in the 90's.

Terminal C: Azul, JetBlue, Aer Lingus, Silver, Hawaiian, Emirates & Icelandair

flymco753 wrote:

I believe it was on last year's thread, if not 2018 where someone broke down who is going to Terminal C and who is staying at the airsides.

I believe it looked like this:

Airside 1: Spirit, Frontier, Air Canada, Air Transat, Sunwing, Sun Country, Westjet, Swoop

Airside 2: Alaska, Southwest

Airside 3: American, United

Airside 4: Aeromexico, Avianca, Bahamasair, British Airways, Caribbean, Copa, Delta, Edelweiss, GOL, LATAM, Lufthansa, Norwegian, Virgin, Volaris (probably Delta in the 70's & 80's, Aeromexico, Virgin, & LATAM in 80's and the remaining in the 90's.

Terminal C: Azul, JetBlue, Aer Lingus, Silver, Hawaiian, Emirates & Icelandair

I would love if Delta completely took over Terminal 4 besides the international gates but that is wishful thinking.

Scraig08 wrote:

flymco753 wrote:

I believe it was on last year's thread, if not 2018 where someone broke down who is going to Terminal C and who is staying at the airsides.

I believe it looked like this:

Airside 1: Spirit, Frontier, Air Canada, Air Transat, Sunwing, Sun Country, Westjet, Swoop

Airside 2: Alaska, Southwest

Airside 3: American, United

Airside 4: Aeromexico, Avianca, Bahamasair, British Airways, Caribbean, Copa, Delta, Edelweiss, GOL, LATAM, Lufthansa, Norwegian, Virgin, Volaris (probably Delta in the 70's & 80's, Aeromexico, Virgin, & LATAM in 80's and the remaining in the 90's.

Terminal C: Azul, JetBlue, Aer Lingus, Silver, Hawaiian, Emirates & Icelandair

I would love if Delta completely took over Terminal 4 besides the international gates but that is wishful thinking.

I was writing in my note pad one day while I was at the airport imagining what it would take for DL to have Airside 4 to themselves and there would have to be a pretty aggressive expansion. I used to fly Northwest from MCO but I remember Delta having a ton of L1011's and DC-10's on the property at once on top of the 727's & 757's.

flymco753 wrote:

Airside 2: Alaska, Southwest
Airside 3: American, United

While the need to connect passengers between AS and AA flights isn't there at MCO with other options to both MIA and FLL from the West Coast on AA/AS, it might make sense to relocate AS to Airside 3 as relocating AS to Airside 3 would allow Alaska Lounge members to access the AA Admirals Club in Airside 3 at MCO. The relocation of AS to Airside 3 would also allow AS to more easily re-accommodate passengers onto AA flights in the event of flight cancellations out of MCO on AS.

flymco753 wrote:

I believe it was on last year's thread, if not 2018 where someone broke down who is going to Terminal C and who is staying at the airsides.

I believe it looked like this:

Airside 1: Spirit, Frontier, Air Canada, Air Transat, Sunwing, Sun Country, Westjet, Swoop

Airside 2: Alaska, Southwest

Airside 3: American, United

Airside 4: Aeromexico, Avianca, Bahamasair, British Airways, Caribbean, Copa, Delta, Edelweiss, GOL, LATAM, Lufthansa, Norwegian, Virgin, Volaris (probably Delta in the 70's & 80's, Aeromexico, Virgin, & LATAM in 80's and the remaining in the 90's.

Terminal C: Azul, JetBlue, Aer Lingus, Silver, Hawaiian, Emirates & Icelandair

I would guess that the Terminal C list will be quite a bit longer than that because otherwise the new terminal will be half empty.

And American + United don't need all of Airside 3.

Happytycho wrote:

flymco753 wrote:

I believe it was on last year's thread, if not 2018 where someone broke down who is going to Terminal C and who is staying at the airsides.

I believe it looked like this:

Airside 1: Spirit, Frontier, Air Canada, Air Transat, Sunwing, Sun Country, Westjet, Swoop

Airside 2: Alaska, Southwest

Airside 3: American, United

Airside 4: Aeromexico, Avianca, Bahamasair, British Airways, Caribbean, Copa, Delta, Edelweiss, GOL, LATAM, Lufthansa, Norwegian, Virgin, Volaris (probably Delta in the 70's & 80's, Aeromexico, Virgin, & LATAM in 80's and the remaining in the 90's.

Terminal C: Azul, JetBlue, Aer Lingus, Silver, Hawaiian, Emirates & Icelandair

I would guess that the Terminal C list will be quite a bit longer than that because otherwise the new terminal will be half empty.

And American + United don't need all of Airside 3.

I just went back to our 2018 & 2019 threads, there was speculation about Spirit moving to either Airside 1 or 4. The problem is, NK has international routes and will need FIS to clear these flights. If the FIS is closed at Airside 1, they'll need to use what's at either Terminal C (which is very unlikely) or Airside 4. If the FIS doesn't close, they'll probably be able to continue cross utilizing 3 for domestic and 1 for international.

Regarding more airlines at Terminal C, basically all of the airlines except for Delta's partners were speculated to move over to Terminal C. If that's the case and the Canadian carriers go back to Airside 1, then Delta and friends will have all of Airside 4 to themselves. I'm sure if DL wanted a nicely sized operation with everything in 1 building, they could get it at a good price.

Happytycho wrote:

flymco753 wrote:

I believe it was on last year's thread, if not 2018 where someone broke down who is going to Terminal C and who is staying at the airsides.

I believe it looked like this:

Airside 1: Spirit, Frontier, Air Canada, Air Transat, Sunwing, Sun Country, Westjet, Swoop

Airside 2: Alaska, Southwest

Airside 3: American, United

Airside 4: Aeromexico, Avianca, Bahamasair, British Airways, Caribbean, Copa, Delta, Edelweiss, GOL, LATAM, Lufthansa, Norwegian, Virgin, Volaris (probably Delta in the 70's & 80's, Aeromexico, Virgin, & LATAM in 80's and the remaining in the 90's.

Terminal C: Azul, JetBlue, Aer Lingus, Silver, Hawaiian, Emirates & Icelandair

I would guess that the Terminal C list will be quite a bit longer than that because otherwise the new terminal will be half empty.

And American + United don't need all of Airside 3.

Agreed. AA and UA have an almost pitiful presence at MCO. No way they'd need that many gates.

TTailedTiger wrote:

Happytycho wrote:

flymco753 wrote:

I believe it was on last year's thread, if not 2018 where someone broke down who is going to Terminal C and who is staying at the airsides.

I believe it looked like this:

Airside 1: Spirit, Frontier, Air Canada, Air Transat, Sunwing, Sun Country, Westjet, Swoop

Airside 2: Alaska, Southwest

Airside 3: American, United

Airside 4: Aeromexico, Avianca, Bahamasair, British Airways, Caribbean, Copa, Delta, Edelweiss, GOL, LATAM, Lufthansa, Norwegian, Virgin, Volaris (probably Delta in the 70's & 80's, Aeromexico, Virgin, & LATAM in 80's and the remaining in the 90's.

Terminal C: Azul, JetBlue, Aer Lingus, Silver, Hawaiian, Emirates & Icelandair

I would guess that the Terminal C list will be quite a bit longer than that because otherwise the new terminal will be half empty.

And American + United don't need all of Airside 3.

Agreed. AA and UA have an almost pitiful presence at MCO. No way they'd need that many gates.

Hmmm... AA is #6 and UA is #7 in terms of average daily departures at MCO, so I would not call their presence "pitiful".

https://orlandoairports.net/site/upload ... rtures.pdf

What is troubling is the lack of long-haul international services, which was the main reason GOAA pushed to build Terminal C. The #5 airline, JetBlue is going to be the largest Terminal C tenant when it opens.

The FIS in Airside 1 will close when Terminal C opens in Spring of 2022.

Pre-pendemic Airside 3 was busting at the seams, handling the largest percentage of passengers of the 4 Airsides. Now, not so much! Post pandemic.....who knows?

Currently only one Airline is confirmed for Terminal C, B6. GOAA was in talks with others. Most international airlines, with the exception of DL adjacent carriers (LA, WS, VS) were expected to relocate from Airsides 1 and 4. Pre-pendemic, GOAA was in "talks" with a dozen carriers to relocate to Terminal C. All talks, with the exception of B6, have stalled. GOAA is expected to begin talks again in the next few months to finalize in the Fall 2021.

NK should move to Airside 1 to replace B6 there. NK is used to splitting operations between Airsides. This will continue whether it will be Airside 4 or Terminal C for International is yet to be determined. NK inquired about moving all operations to Terminal C, but GOAA didn't belive (Pre-pendemic) it could handle all of B6, NK and other International carriers ops.

I could see AS and AC relocate to Airside 3 to be closer to their partner airlines. If AC eventually resumes all of their seasonal adds, then they will have to split ops as not all of the airports have pre-clearence.

Time will tell.

BTW....Terminal C reached 70% completion at the end of 2020. I've walked through a couple of times. It's impressive. I will warn though....there was thread on here of people complaining about increased walking distances in another newly built Terminal. The same is true of this Terminal, especially the furthest gates and there are no moving walkways. This will be eliminated with the next phase of expansion (whenever that will happen) but until then....be warned.

All international flights should be forced to use Terminal C. It is a major inconvenience on Airside 4 passengers when international flights arrive. MCO is not a connection point for international to domestic traffic.

TTailedTiger wrote:

All international flights should be forced to use Terminal C. It is a major inconvenience on Airside 4 passengers when international flights arrive. MCO is not a connection point for international to domestic traffic.

Delta has the ground contract for Virgin Atlantic. The only ground personnel that is employed by another company is the TCO, otherwise, the remaining work on the ground is done by Delta. DL is gearing up to take over the ramp for Aeromexico and LATAM as well.

flymco753 wrote:

TTailedTiger wrote:

All international flights should be forced to use Terminal C. It is a major inconvenience on Airside 4 passengers when international flights arrive. MCO is not a connection point for international to domestic traffic.

Delta has the ground contract for Virgin Atlantic. The only ground personnel that is employed by another company is the TCO, otherwise, the remaining work on the ground is done by Delta. DL is gearing up to take over the ramp for Aeromexico and LATAM as well.

Delta can still ground them from Terminal C. Not to mention it would be wonderful to not have VS passengers in the Sky Club. Their passengers make it way too crowded.

Welcome back Max..American has reintroduced 737Max flights with service between Miami. Also, today there will be a United Max departing from United maintenance for a 1.5 hour test flight.

TTailedTiger wrote:

flymco753 wrote:

TTailedTiger wrote:

All international flights should be forced to use Terminal C. It is a major inconvenience on Airside 4 passengers when international flights arrive. MCO is not a connection point for international to domestic traffic.

Delta has the ground contract for Virgin Atlantic. The only ground personnel that is employed by another company is the TCO, otherwise, the remaining work on the ground is done by Delta. DL is gearing up to take over the ramp for Aeromexico and LATAM as well.

Delta can still ground them from Terminal C. Not to mention it would be wonderful to not have VS passengers in the Sky Club. Their passengers make it way too crowded.

I feel like it's unorthodox for DL to split employees between C and Airside. Time will tell to see the finalized list of who is going.

crownvic wrote:

Welcome back Max..American has reintroduced 737Max flights with service between Miami. Also, today there will be a United Max departing from United maintenance for a 1.5 hour test flight.

I was in Lake Nona and saw it. I was like "oh look a 737" and when I realized it was unreasonably quiet I went to FR24 and found out it was a MAX.

I would like to see a Southwest expansion with seasonal service to PDX to compete with Alaska. I think 2022 is when MCO will start to see more substantial service when Terminal C opens. Traffic should begin to rebound by March and I am expecting Summer 2021 to fully ramp up especially when international visitors begin to arrive.

Scraig08 wrote:

I would like to see a Southwest expansion with seasonal service to PDX to compete with Alaska. I think 2022 is when MCO will start to see more substantial service when Terminal C opens. Traffic should begin to rebound by March and I am expecting Summer 2021 to fully ramp up especially when international visitors begin to arrive.

Fingers crossed! While it's nice to see people coming to visit the attractions, we deeply miss the visitors from the rest of the world that can't visit right now.

I hope your time frames on this are correct but I am optimistic ... 2022 can't get here fast enough

Scraig08 wrote:

I would like to see a Southwest expansion with seasonal service to PDX to compete with Alaska. I think 2022 is when MCO will start to see more substantial service when Terminal C opens. Traffic should begin to rebound by March and I am expecting Summer 2021 to fully ramp up especially when international visitors begin to arrive.

Scraig08 wrote:

I would like to see a Southwest expansion with seasonal service to PDX to compete with Alaska. I think 2022 is when MCO will start to see more substantial service when Terminal C opens. Traffic should begin to rebound by March and I am expecting Summer 2021 to fully ramp up especially when international visitors begin to arrive.

I would love to see WN on PDX-MCO! However, WN typically shies away from transcon routes outside of BWI. I think WN would perform a lot better on PDX-MCO than SY did.

I was looking at going to Vegas soon and saw that we only have 2 A320's on the MCO-LAS route with a once weekly 737-700 on Southwest. You'd think that there would be room for B6 or DL to be on the route with an A320 or 738.

Over/under on the chances we see Breeze using SFB as their airport for Orlando. I’m giving it a 10% chance.

HNLSLCPDX wrote:

Over/under on the chances we see Breeze using SFB as their airport for Orlando. I’m giving it a 10% chance.

Agreed for 2 reasons, first being Allegiant, the second being Frontier and Spirit all having very strong presences at SFB & MCO.

flymco753 wrote:

HNLSLCPDX wrote:

Over/under on the chances we see Breeze using SFB as their airport for Orlando. I’m giving it a 10% chance.

Agreed for 2 reasons, first being Allegiant, the second being Frontier and Spirit all having very strong presences at SFB & MCO.

I think there might be a better chance of seeing Breeze at DAB. The airport authority at DAB is desperate for new, low-cost service and would be willing to pay incentives to an airline like Breeze. There is a decent catchment area for DAB that includes Daytona Beach, Ormond Beach, New Smyrna Beach, Palm Coast, DeLand, Orange City and Deltona. With the improvements to I-95 & I-4 in that area, it is a pretty easy drive to DAB from all of those cities.

As for SFB, I think Allegiant has too much pull with the airport authority to allow a direct competitor into one of their major focus cities.

FLALEFTY wrote:

flymco753 wrote:

HNLSLCPDX wrote:

Over/under on the chances we see Breeze using SFB as their airport for Orlando. I’m giving it a 10% chance.

Agreed for 2 reasons, first being Allegiant, the second being Frontier and Spirit all having very strong presences at SFB & MCO.

I think there might be a better chance of seeing Breeze at DAB. The airport authority at DAB is desperate for new, low-cost service and would be willing to pay incentives to an airline like Breeze. There is a decent catchment area for DAB that includes Daytona Beach, Ormond Beach, New Smyrna Beach, Palm Coast, DeLand, Orange City and Deltona. With the improvements to I-95 & I-4 in that area, it is a pretty easy drive to DAB from all of those cities.

As for SFB, I think Allegiant has too much pull with the airport authority to allow a direct competitor into one of their major focus cities.

It would be nice to have a west side alternate for Orlando, but I don't think with the pandemic, I don't think Lakeland (LAL) is still looking for commerical service, might be possible with the reduction of traffic between LAL and WDW. Could also perhaps be a Tampa alternate as G4 is big at PIE and may not be willing to let Breeze set up there, though perhaps SRQ is an alternate

Jerseyguy wrote:

FLALEFTY wrote:

flymco753 wrote:

Agreed for 2 reasons, first being Allegiant, the second being Frontier and Spirit all having very strong presences at SFB & MCO.

I think there might be a better chance of seeing Breeze at DAB. The airport authority at DAB is desperate for new, low-cost service and would be willing to pay incentives to an airline like Breeze. There is a decent catchment area for DAB that includes Daytona Beach, Ormond Beach, New Smyrna Beach, Palm Coast, DeLand, Orange City and Deltona. With the improvements to I-95 & I-4 in that area, it is a pretty easy drive to DAB from all of those cities.

As for SFB, I think Allegiant has too much pull with the airport authority to allow a direct competitor into one of their major focus cities.

It would be nice to have a west side alternate for Orlando, but I don't think with the pandemic, I don't think Lakeland (LAL) is still looking for commerical service, might be possible with the reduction of traffic between LAL and WDW. Could also perhaps be a Tampa alternate as G4 is big at PIE and may not be willing to let Breeze set up there, though perhaps SRQ is an alternate

They can mimic what TUI is doing and go to MLB. TUI thinks they can get people to drive to Disney and book beach vacations so maybe this is something Breeze would consider. After all, Melbourne did rebrand to "Orlando Melbourne".

flymco753 wrote:

Jerseyguy wrote:

FLALEFTY wrote:

I think there might be a better chance of seeing Breeze at DAB. The airport authority at DAB is desperate for new, low-cost service and would be willing to pay incentives to an airline like Breeze. There is a decent catchment area for DAB that includes Daytona Beach, Ormond Beach, New Smyrna Beach, Palm Coast, DeLand, Orange City and Deltona. With the improvements to I-95 & I-4 in that area, it is a pretty easy drive to DAB from all of those cities.

As for SFB, I think Allegiant has too much pull with the airport authority to allow a direct competitor into one of their major focus cities.

It would be nice to have a west side alternate for Orlando, but I don't think with the pandemic, I don't think Lakeland (LAL) is still looking for commerical service, might be possible with the reduction of traffic between LAL and WDW. Could also perhaps be a Tampa alternate as G4 is big at PIE and may not be willing to let Breeze set up there, though perhaps SRQ is an alternate

They can mimic what TUI is doing and go to MLB. TUI thinks they can get people to drive to Disney and book beach vacations so maybe this is something Breeze would consider. After all, Melbourne did rebrand to "Orlando Melbourne".

That rebrand is a real stretch. That’s similar to SNA being named “Orange County-San Diego Airport”.

flymco753 wrote:

I believe it was on last year's thread, if not 2018 where someone broke down who is going to Terminal C and who is staying at the airsides.

I believe it looked like this:

Airside 1: Spirit, Frontier, Air Canada, Air Transat, Sunwing, Sun Country, Westjet, Swoop

Airside 2: Alaska, Southwest

Airside 3: American, United

Airside 4: Aeromexico, Avianca, Bahamasair, British Airways, Caribbean, Copa, Delta, Edelweiss, GOL, LATAM, Lufthansa, Norwegian, Virgin, Volaris (probably Delta in the 70's & 80's, Aeromexico, Virgin, & LATAM in 80's and the remaining in the 90's.

Terminal C: Azul, JetBlue, Aer Lingus, Silver, Hawaiian, Emirates & Icelandair

If NK moves their entire operations into the current B6 gates in Airside 1, than AS and AC should probably move to their old gates in Airside 3 as there is no way AA and UA need an entire Airside to themselves. I think there will be more airlines in Terminal C as well. I’d assume BA, LH, and possibly AV will likely move to Terminal C as well to take some crowding off Airside 4.

FLALEFTY wrote:

flymco753 wrote:

HNLSLCPDX wrote:

Over/under on the chances we see Breeze using SFB as their airport for Orlando. I’m giving it a 10% chance.

Agreed for 2 reasons, first being Allegiant, the second being Frontier and Spirit all having very strong presences at SFB & MCO.

I think there might be a better chance of seeing Breeze at DAB. The airport authority at DAB is desperate for new, low-cost service and would be willing to pay incentives to an airline like Breeze. There is a decent catchment area for DAB that includes Daytona Beach, Ormond Beach, New Smyrna Beach, Palm Coast, DeLand, Orange City and Deltona. With the improvements to I-95 & I-4 in that area, it is a pretty easy drive to DAB from all of those cities.

As for SFB, I think Allegiant has too much pull with the airport authority to allow a direct competitor into one of their major focus cities.

SFB is finishing a 4-gate expansion that G4 objected to building precisely because G4 didn't want there to be room for competition. Airport built it anyway, over the objections of Allegiant. It opens soon-ish. The new expanded terminal opened in the Fall 2020.

The airport is quite excited about other domestic carriers coming to SFB, and as of Fall 2020 they have a new airport director from out of state, the first non-hometown airport CEO in the history of the airport. Watch for aggressive recruiting of Breeze and anyone else who will listen. The past relationships with G4 have been in an overly cozy arrangement which is no longer the case. SFB seems to be the ideal kind of place for Breeze, but the pitch will be made for others at MCO to switch to SFB. Neither the airport board nor the new CEO want all their eggs in Allegiant's basket. The management company that has done all the airline ops and airline recruiting (is part of Vinci Airports Corporation), is extremely tight with G4. In my opinion they've tried not to rock the boat and tick off Allegiant by going after domestic carriers, but with the new CEO and the strong backing of the airport authority (but not Vinci), watch for some developments we wouldn't have seen otherwise.

HardeesBiscuit wrote:

FLALEFTY wrote:

flymco753 wrote:

Agreed for 2 reasons, first being Allegiant, the second being Frontier and Spirit all having very strong presences at SFB & MCO.

I think there might be a better chance of seeing Breeze at DAB. The airport authority at DAB is desperate for new, low-cost service and would be willing to pay incentives to an airline like Breeze. There is a decent catchment area for DAB that includes Daytona Beach, Ormond Beach, New Smyrna Beach, Palm Coast, DeLand, Orange City and Deltona. With the improvements to I-95 & I-4 in that area, it is a pretty easy drive to DAB from all of those cities.

As for SFB, I think Allegiant has too much pull with the airport authority to allow a direct competitor into one of their major focus cities.

SFB is finishing a 4-gate expansion that G4 objected to building precisely because G4 didn't want there to be room for competition. Airport built it anyway, over the objections of Allegiant. It opens soon-ish. The new expanded terminal opened in the Fall 2020.

The airport is quite excited about other domestic carriers coming to SFB, and as of Fall 2020 they have a new airport director from out of state, the first non-hometown airport CEO in the history of the airport. Watch for aggressive recruiting of Breeze and anyone else who will listen. The past relationships with G4 have been in an overly cozy arrangement which is no longer the case. SFB seems to be the ideal kind of place for Breeze, but the pitch will be made for others at MCO to switch to SFB. Neither the airport board nor the new CEO want all their eggs in Allegiant's basket. The management company that has done all the airline ops and airline recruiting (is part of Vinci Airports Corporation), is extremely tight with G4. In my opinion they've tried not to rock the boat and tick off Allegiant by going after domestic carriers, but with the new CEO and the strong backing of the airport authority (but not Vinci), watch for some developments we wouldn't have seen otherwise.

I’ll believe it when I see it. I just don’t see it playing out where SFB becomes a focus for two or more carriers.

HardeesBiscuit wrote:

FLALEFTY wrote:

flymco753 wrote:

Agreed for 2 reasons, first being Allegiant, the second being Frontier and Spirit all having very strong presences at SFB & MCO.

I think there might be a better chance of seeing Breeze at DAB. The airport authority at DAB is desperate for new, low-cost service and would be willing to pay incentives to an airline like Breeze. There is a decent catchment area for DAB that includes Daytona Beach, Ormond Beach, New Smyrna Beach, Palm Coast, DeLand, Orange City and Deltona. With the improvements to I-95 & I-4 in that area, it is a pretty easy drive to DAB from all of those cities.

As for SFB, I think Allegiant has too much pull with the airport authority to allow a direct competitor into one of their major focus cities.

SFB is finishing a 4-gate expansion that G4 objected to building precisely because G4 didn't want there to be room for competition. Airport built it anyway, over the objections of Allegiant. It opens soon-ish. The new expanded terminal opened in the Fall 2020.

The airport is quite excited about other domestic carriers coming to SFB, and as of Fall 2020 they have a new airport director from out of state, the first non-hometown airport CEO in the history of the airport. Watch for aggressive recruiting of Breeze and anyone else who will listen. The past relationships with G4 have been in an overly cozy arrangement which is no longer the case. SFB seems to be the ideal kind of place for Breeze, but the pitch will be made for others at MCO to switch to SFB. Neither the airport board nor the new CEO want all their eggs in Allegiant's basket. The management company that has done all the airline ops and airline recruiting (is part of Vinci Airports Corporation), is extremely tight with G4. In my opinion they've tried not to rock the boat and tick off Allegiant by going after domestic carriers, but with the new CEO and the strong backing of the airport authority (but not Vinci), watch for some developments we wouldn't have seen otherwise.

I wouldn't rule out SFB being in the hunt for Breeze, but I still believe G4 has the upper hand with the SFB airport authority. Remember, in 2010 they went to MCO before but ended up leaving due to lack of gate space and higher fees. Due to G4's infrequent flights, jets coming to MCO had to off-load at their (shared) gate and then get towed to the hardstands to wait for its next flight, something they don't have to do at SFB. But with the new Terminal C coming up and only JetBlue formally signed-on to use some of the domestic gates, GOAA could toss an attractive offer to G4 to take up some gates in Terminal C. And G4 would prefer to be in MCO given its closer proximity to the theme parks. So if SFB tries to incentivize Breeze, G4 could play "hardball" and make them reconsider.

Even if B6 is hypothetically the only carrier to go over to Terminal C, which we know it's not, that would be space for G4. The interesting scenario that will play out is what Spirit is going to do. If they process through Airside 4's FIS they could probably tow for departures at Airside 3 like WN does. WN processes at 4 and tows to 2 for the departure.

Im going to make a huge assumption and say that all Delta partners will remain at Airside 4, Air Canada and Alaska would move to Airside 3 to be with United and AA respectively. Remaining Canadian carriers to Airside 1's 20 wing leaving the 90 gates virtually open with the exception of Bahamasair and Sun Country.

Clipper136 wrote:

The FIS in Airside 1 will close when Terminal C opens in Spring of 2022.

Interesting, even with a theoretical NK moving to Airside 1 and having int'l ops?

Also, any talk of the third wing expansion at Airside 2 or is MCO still having ILS interference issues even after 20 years of technology development?

Do we have anytime frame for the next phase of terminal C?

phatfarmlines wrote:

Clipper136 wrote:

The FIS in Airside 1 will close when Terminal C opens in Spring of 2022.

Interesting, even with a theoretical NK moving to Airside 1 and having int'l ops?

Also, any talk of the third wing expansion at Airside 2 or is MCO still having ILS interference issues even after 20 years of technology development?

My understanding is that CBP can't/won't staff three FISs, so the one in AS1 will have to close.

MCO's challenge in allocating airlines to gates is the number of airlines who have both international(FIS) and domestic(non-FIS) flights combined with the disconnected nature of the airsides. The popular guess before Covid was that Spirit would have to split their operations by doing domestic from AS1 and international arrivals on AS4. There might be alternatives where NK could get more of their domestic flights onto the non-FIS 90's gates, but that would require other airlines like Air Transat and Swoop splitting their operations across multiple airsides depending on whether flights have preclearance. MCO's layout just isn't very good for combining domestic and international flights.

I don't know about the ILS, but I imagine that an AS2 expansion would also have a problem with landside passenger processing capacity. With traffic being down due to the pandemic, in the near term MCO will have too many gates, not too few. And when it's time to expand again, Terminal C is the future - starting with phase 1X to the south and eventually a phase 2 to the north.

Happytycho wrote:

My understanding is that CBP can't/won't staff three FISs, so the one in AS1 will have to close

Happytycho wrote:

The popular guess before Covid was that Spirit would have to split their operations by doing domestic from AS1 and international arrivals on AS4.

NK, B6 and WN do this now. (Split domestic and International arrivals) B6 not as much, so it's not much of a change. Pre-pendemic, NK sometimes had International ops on both AS1 and 4.

Happytycho wrote:

There might be alternatives where NK could get more of their domestic flights onto the non-FIS 90's gates

Since the reno, there are only 4 non FIS gates on the 90s wing. 1 or 2 of which will be used by WS and possibly AC. Not enough space for NK domestic ops.

Happytycho wrote:

I don't know about the ILS, but I imagine that an AS2 expansion would also have a problem with landside passenger processing capacity.

AS2 expansion is completely off the radar. Even removed from long-term (20 year) planning. MCO will expand in the South. Unless in the future WN wants it, then there's a chance it could return, but GOAA is not currently planning for it. The expansion never happened because it was predicated on the 1000ft extension of RWY 17R/35L to the north. (This is still planned for) The new wing would compromise the approach surfaces for RWY 17R as it currently is.

Happytycho wrote:

And when it's time to expand again, Terminal C is the future - starting with phase 1X to the south and eventually a phase 2 to the north.

Nicknuzzii wrote:

Do we have anytime frame for the next phase of terminal C?

Pre-planning was already moving forward, Pre-pendemic! It was thought that construction would begin directly after the completion of Phase 1 (and Phase 1X that was includes in Phase 1 but has had parts halted due to the pandemic). Now? It depends on the recovery. Conservative estimates are 6-8 years. Less conservative estimates are 4-5 years. Anyone's guess at this point.

G4 added SFB-EYW