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MIAFLLPBIFlyer
Posts: 623
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:25 pm

Re: South Florida Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Dec 10, 2021 3:14 pm

Missed this a few weeks ago.

Delta finally adding LATAM codeshare routes from MIA

https://news.delta.com/delta-and-latam- ... th-america

Could we see more domestic Miami feed on DL due to this?
 
jplatts
Posts: 5978
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: South Florida Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Dec 10, 2021 3:26 pm

MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:
Could we see more domestic Miami feed on DL due to this?


In addition to the connecting opportunities that would be there onto JJ/LA/LP (LATAM) flights, there would also be connecting opportunities onto AR MIA-EZE, AM MIA-MEX, and AF MIA-PTP/PAP flights from DL domestic flights to MIA.

I had recently asked the question of whether DL was likely to re-add MIA-CVG/LAX nonstop service in a discussion at viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1467101 due to the recent adds that AA, AS, F9, B6, WN, and NK have made at MIA.

There would also be some connecting opportunities to the West Coast, Hawaii, Asia, and Australia through LAX on DL if DL re-adds MIA-LAX nonstop service.
 
MIAFLLPBIFlyer
Posts: 623
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:25 pm

Re: South Florida Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Dec 10, 2021 4:45 pm

So basically looking at F9 service in late February, of the 10 new routes from FLL (taking out the 2 that are technically resumptions), 5 are effectively being moved from MIA - ALB, BUF, PWM, ROC, SWF. The other FLL routes are all served from MIA except GRB which appears totally new to south Florida.

Also seems NK has shifted MSP, RDU and BDL from FLL to MIA at least for winter.

Interesting to track how the split ops will go for the ULCC's. Was much easier to track when NK was at FLL and F9 at MIA, but now much more fluid.
 
Brickell305
Posts: 1744
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:07 pm

Re: South Florida Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Dec 10, 2021 5:40 pm

MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:
So basically looking at F9 service in late February, of the 10 new routes from FLL (taking out the 2 that are technically resumptions), 5 are effectively being moved from MIA - ALB, BUF, PWM, ROC, SWF. The other FLL routes are all served from MIA except GRB which appears totally new to south Florida.

Also seems NK has shifted MSP, RDU and BDL from FLL to MIA at least for winter.

Interesting to track how the split ops will go for the ULCC's. Was much easier to track when NK was at FLL and F9 at MIA, but now much more fluid.

Those F9 routes switched to FLL look like the most low yield of low yield routes that they fly to S. Fla. Maybe cost advantages make them marginally better at FLL?
 
jco613
Posts: 381
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 2:12 pm

Re: South Florida Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Dec 10, 2021 6:37 pm

MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:
So basically looking at F9 service in late February, of the 10 new routes from FLL (taking out the 2 that are technically resumptions), 5 are effectively being moved from MIA - ALB, BUF, PWM, ROC, SWF. The other FLL routes are all served from MIA except GRB which appears totally new to south Florida.

Also seems NK has shifted MSP, RDU and BDL from FLL to MIA at least for winter.

Interesting to track how the split ops will go for the ULCC's. Was much easier to track when NK was at FLL and F9 at MIA, but now much more fluid.

I am shocked that BDL-MIA is now so popular. AA went from 1X daily at the worst times pre-pandemic to a peak of I think 3, maybe even 4x. Then B6 added 1X daily, I think F9 was on it at one point and now NK?

Meanwhile, BDL-FLL is way off its peak. There was a point that WN was 2X, but it usually was at 1X and since the pandemic has not flown the route. B6 I believe still flies 2X daily, but not always and NK was at 2X at one point but is now gone. BDL-FLL has a rich history including DL/Song/DL Express multiple times daily (even with the Song 757s 2-3X daily year round) and US during their experimentation time at FLL and pre-DL back in the 80s and 90s. The biggest point, however, is that as long as I can remember, there has always been 2 (or more) airlines flying the route!
Now, all of that being said, we do have Avelo to HVN and B6 to HPN 1-2x daily, which we did not have back in the Song days, so traffic has spread around a bit for sure, but sad to see a route with such a rich history start to really disappear.
 
MIAFLLPBIFlyer
Posts: 623
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:25 pm

Re: South Florida Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Dec 10, 2021 10:07 pm

jco613 wrote:
MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:
So basically looking at F9 service in late February, of the 10 new routes from FLL (taking out the 2 that are technically resumptions), 5 are effectively being moved from MIA - ALB, BUF, PWM, ROC, SWF. The other FLL routes are all served from MIA except GRB which appears totally new to south Florida.

Also seems NK has shifted MSP, RDU and BDL from FLL to MIA at least for winter.

Interesting to track how the split ops will go for the ULCC's. Was much easier to track when NK was at FLL and F9 at MIA, but now much more fluid.

I am shocked that BDL-MIA is now so popular. AA went from 1X daily at the worst times pre-pandemic to a peak of I think 3, maybe even 4x. Then B6 added 1X daily, I think F9 was on it at one point and now NK?

Meanwhile, BDL-FLL is way off its peak. There was a point that WN was 2X, but it usually was at 1X and since the pandemic has not flown the route. B6 I believe still flies 2X daily, but not always and NK was at 2X at one point but is now gone. BDL-FLL has a rich history including DL/Song/DL Express multiple times daily (even with the Song 757s 2-3X daily year round) and US during their experimentation time at FLL and pre-DL back in the 80s and 90s. The biggest point, however, is that as long as I can remember, there has always been 2 (or more) airlines flying the route!
Now, all of that being said, we do have Avelo to HVN and B6 to HPN 1-2x daily, which we did not have back in the Song days, so traffic has spread around a bit for sure, but sad to see a route with such a rich history start to really disappear.


Such a rich history that at one point in the 80's BDL was flown nonstop from FLL on EA and not from MIA. The only such route at the time, eventually BDL was brought back from MIA and cut toward the end from FLL. The only other route in the 80's I recall being flown only from FLL and not MIA was ISP, which was not even flown from ATL!

US also flew BDL-FLL off and on for years and never IIRC flew MIA-BDL.

Even as late as 2005 after the post 911 drawdown, US flew BDL-FLL.

https://departedflights2.com/airlines-s ... arch-2005/
 
MIAFLLPBIFlyer
Posts: 623
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:25 pm

Re: South Florida Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Dec 10, 2021 10:11 pm

Brickell305 wrote:
MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:
So basically looking at F9 service in late February, of the 10 new routes from FLL (taking out the 2 that are technically resumptions), 5 are effectively being moved from MIA - ALB, BUF, PWM, ROC, SWF. The other FLL routes are all served from MIA except GRB which appears totally new to south Florida.

Also seems NK has shifted MSP, RDU and BDL from FLL to MIA at least for winter.

Interesting to track how the split ops will go for the ULCC's. Was much easier to track when NK was at FLL and F9 at MIA, but now much more fluid.

Those F9 routes switched to FLL look like the most low yield of low yield routes that they fly to S. Fla. Maybe cost advantages make them marginally better at FLL?





I do think WN's retreat from FLL does open the door on BUF and ALB as B6 is the only airline flying those routes year-round now. But of course F9 never is consistent so not clear if they will actually stick it out in the summer on any of those routes.
 
jco613
Posts: 381
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 2:12 pm

Re: South Florida Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Dec 10, 2021 11:24 pm

MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:
Brickell305 wrote:
MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:
So basically looking at F9 service in late February, of the 10 new routes from FLL (taking out the 2 that are technically resumptions), 5 are effectively being moved from MIA - ALB, BUF, PWM, ROC, SWF. The other FLL routes are all served from MIA except GRB which appears totally new to south Florida.

Also seems NK has shifted MSP, RDU and BDL from FLL to MIA at least for winter.

Interesting to track how the split ops will go for the ULCC's. Was much easier to track when NK was at FLL and F9 at MIA, but now much more fluid.

Those F9 routes switched to FLL look like the most low yield of low yield routes that they fly to S. Fla. Maybe cost advantages make them marginally better at FLL?





I do think WN's retreat from FLL does open the door on BUF and ALB as B6 is the only airline flying those routes year-round now. But of course F9 never is consistent so not clear if they will actually stick it out in the summer on any of those routes.

B6 doesn't even fly FLL-BUF year round anymore, but FWIW in WN's investor call, they did show FLL as one of the markets they intend to return to (close to) pre-pandemic service in 2022, so we will see how that pans out.
 
tphuang
Posts: 7218
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: South Florida Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Dec 10, 2021 11:34 pm

jco613 wrote:
MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:
Brickell305 wrote:
Those F9 routes switched to FLL look like the most low yield of low yield routes that they fly to S. Fla. Maybe cost advantages make them marginally better at FLL?





I do think WN's retreat from FLL does open the door on BUF and ALB as B6 is the only airline flying those routes year-round now. But of course F9 never is consistent so not clear if they will actually stick it out in the summer on any of those routes.

B6 doesn't even fly FLL-BUF year round anymore, but FWIW in WN's investor call, they did show FLL as one of the markets they intend to return to (close to) pre-pandemic service in 2022, so we will see how that pans out.


I had WN at 51 departures on a Monday in May. Not great for close to peak season there. Here is WN's local domestic market share by revenue from FLL across 3 time period. You can see the downward trend.

2016Q4 20.26%
2019Q3 17.04%
2021Q2 14.46%
 
MIAFLLPBIFlyer
Posts: 623
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:25 pm

Re: South Florida Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat Dec 11, 2021 12:04 am

tphuang wrote:
jco613 wrote:
MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:




I do think WN's retreat from FLL does open the door on BUF and ALB as B6 is the only airline flying those routes year-round now. But of course F9 never is consistent so not clear if they will actually stick it out in the summer on any of those routes.

B6 doesn't even fly FLL-BUF year round anymore, but FWIW in WN's investor call, they did show FLL as one of the markets they intend to return to (close to) pre-pandemic service in 2022, so we will see how that pans out.


I had WN at 51 departures on a Monday in May. Not great for close to peak season there. Here is WN's local domestic market share by revenue from FLL across 3 time period. You can see the downward trend.

2016Q4 20.26%
2019Q3 17.04%
2021Q2 14.46%



Yeah and looking more closely at F9 's adds from FLL (not just the ones moved from MIA) it seems a universal theme might be that they are targeting WN more than B6 or NK. BUF, ALB, ISP and PVD if F9 is successful on could effectively push WN off the route. Seems some WN FLL routes are hanging by a thread. F9 throws darts everywhere but maybe this one will land thanks to WN increasing weakness at FLL...
 
MIAFLLPBIFlyer
Posts: 623
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:25 pm

Re: South Florida Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat Dec 11, 2021 2:24 pm

Per The Herald MIA-CDG not being flown this summer by AA among other cuts.

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/busine ... 67456.html
 
jplatts
Posts: 5978
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: South Florida Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat Dec 11, 2021 3:39 pm

MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:
Yeah and looking more closely at F9 's adds from FLL (not just the ones moved from MIA) it seems a universal theme might be that they are targeting WN more than B6 or NK. BUF, ALB, ISP and PVD if F9 is successful on could effectively push WN off the route. Seems some WN FLL routes are hanging by a thread. F9 throws darts everywhere but maybe this one will land thanks to WN increasing weakness at FLL...


I had recently asked the question about the possibility of WN, G4, or F9 adding nonstop service to the MIA/FLL market from OMA with OMA being one of the top markets traveled to from MIA/FLL that isn't currently served nonstop from the MIA/FLL market by any LCC's or ULCC's, and that discussion can be found at viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1466671. OMA also isn't currently served by B6 or NK.
 
miaami
Posts: 1011
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2007 2:27 am

Re: South Florida Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat Dec 11, 2021 4:54 pm

MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:
Per The Herald MIA-CDG not being flown this summer by AA among other cuts.

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/busine ... 67456.html


It’s hard to fathom that they would add a second MIA-CDG from January thru February and then drop the route entirely in March. I would have expected them to drop MIA-TLV before the CDG route.
 
airplaneboy
Posts: 890
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 11:59 am

Re: South Florida Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed Dec 15, 2021 3:23 am

tphuang wrote:
jco613 wrote:
MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:




I do think WN's retreat from FLL does open the door on BUF and ALB as B6 is the only airline flying those routes year-round now. But of course F9 never is consistent so not clear if they will actually stick it out in the summer on any of those routes.

B6 doesn't even fly FLL-BUF year round anymore, but FWIW in WN's investor call, they did show FLL as one of the markets they intend to return to (close to) pre-pandemic service in 2022, so we will see how that pans out.


I had WN at 51 departures on a Monday in May. Not great for close to peak season there. Here is WN's local domestic market share by revenue from FLL across 3 time period. You can see the downward trend.

2016Q4 20.26%
2019Q3 17.04%
2021Q2 14.46%


Curious, would you be able to teach how you find this data if it’s not too difficult (please and thank you)? Also, it would be helpful if the same data could be shared for the legacies and ULCCs during the same years. And then compare those figures to marketshare based on *number of passengers flown.* That would provide a more meaningful discussion here in terms of overall marketshare. Revenue vs. number of passengers carried can shed light on market strategy. I’d wager to guess that B6 and AA command higher revenues in S. Florida, with B6 having the more desirable hard product (consistently) throughout its fleet while AA simply having volume and gauge via MIA.

No question WN has retreated from FLL over the last several years, primarily driven by a fleet shortage due to the MAX grounding and Classic fleet retirement. Due to adding many new destinations during the pandemic, they are still short on aircraft in terms of restoring depth (frequency) and network connectivity. In their recent investor presentation, FLL is a target growth market for restoring pre-pandemic volume.
 
airplaneboy
Posts: 890
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 11:59 am

Re: South Florida Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed Dec 15, 2021 3:23 am

tphuang wrote:
jco613 wrote:
MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:




I do think WN's retreat from FLL does open the door on BUF and ALB as B6 is the only airline flying those routes year-round now. But of course F9 never is consistent so not clear if they will actually stick it out in the summer on any of those routes.

B6 doesn't even fly FLL-BUF year round anymore, but FWIW in WN's investor call, they did show FLL as one of the markets they intend to return to (close to) pre-pandemic service in 2022, so we will see how that pans out.


I had WN at 51 departures on a Monday in May. Not great for close to peak season there. Here is WN's local domestic market share by revenue from FLL across 3 time period. You can see the downward trend.

2016Q4 20.26%
2019Q3 17.04%
2021Q2 14.46%


Curious, would you be able to teach how you find this data if it’s not too difficult (please and thank you)? Also, it would be helpful if the same data could be shared for the legacies and ULCCs during the same years. And then compare those figures to marketshare based on *number of passengers flown.* That would provide a more meaningful discussion here in terms of overall marketshare. Revenue vs. number of passengers carried can shed light on market strategy. I’d wager to guess that B6 and AA command higher revenues in S. Florida, with B6 having the more desirable hard product (consistently) throughout its fleet while AA simply having volume and gauge via MIA.

No question WN has retreated from FLL over the last several years, primarily driven by a fleet shortage due to the MAX grounding and Classic fleet retirement. Due to adding many new destinations during the pandemic, they are still short on aircraft in terms of restoring depth (frequency) and network connectivity. In their recent investor presentation, FLL is a target growth market for restoring pre-pandemic volume.
 
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Miami
Posts: 6358
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2012 8:37 pm

Re: South Florida Aviation Thread - 2021

Sun Dec 19, 2021 1:47 pm

Colombia & UAE sign new aviation agreement and according to Colombia’s Civil Aviation Authority

“One of the most important results for Colombia was strengthening the commercial activities with the UAE, opening the possibility of new passenger services, connecting the country via Miami.”

https://onemileatatime.com/news/emirate ... LJBq_xmFxk
 
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N62NA
Posts: 4622
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2003 1:05 am

Re: South Florida Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon Dec 20, 2021 2:05 am

jplatts wrote:
I recently asked if DL was likely to re-add MIA-CVG/LAX nonstop service


jplatts wrote:
and if UA was likely to add MIA-LAX nonstop service



If DL and/or UA is going to fly MIA-LAX, they had better put at least a flat bed 757 on the route. A 737 or A320 won't be a compelling product.
 
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janders
Moderator
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Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:27 pm

Re: South Florida Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat Jan 01, 2022 2:19 am

Kindly continue in the 2022 edition

>>> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1468641
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