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MrPeanut
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:28 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
INFINITI329 wrote:
BigPlaneGuy13 wrote:
Any images showing the progress of the new T4S? I've seen it at a glance from some YouTube trip reports but would love to see the progress from a still image.


I have some pics but I lack the phd needed to upload pics to a.net since the last upgrade :banghead:

All you need to do is upload them to Flickr or Imgur. Then copy the url as a .jpg and use the [img] code. Otherwise, you can just post the raw links. It's not as easy as it could/should be, but I went to ASU and even I can figure it out, so no PhD required. The site migration was nearly five years ago now, so you've gotta get with the times! :bouncy: If you still have a hard time with it, just PM me and I'll help you get it posted.


It's still a pain in the ass regardless. It's an antiquated way of uploading images and actually got worse after the migration.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:46 pm

MrPeanut wrote:
It's still a pain in the ass regardless. It's an antiquated way of uploading images and actually got worse after the migration.

It is. Unfortunately the platform the then developers chose (phpBB) isn't really conducive to posting images, but it's a solid and commonly used forum platform. They heavily modified the off-the-shelf phpBB into the forum version we're using now, but image uploads just wasn't the priority, because the focus for images went to the database side of the site. It ended up creating a sort of Frankenstein site, which was the whole reason for abandoning the original and frequently broken platform. That was back when we actually had a dedicated developer for the site and the owners actually made an effort at pushing out improvements. We changed hands again about four years ago (maybe six months after the migration), and not long after, development to the site pretty much halted. I don't see that changing anytime soon. It's frustrating for all of us as well, but there's nothing we can do about it.

MrPeanut wrote:
Image

It would be nice if at some point they made some upgrades on the existing piers, particularly on the north side. They put up such a nice looking facility at T3, and it's making T4 show its age inside and out. ATL has made some massive esthetic changes to its midfield concourses in recent years, and that interior/exterior facelift gave the facilities some much needed rehab — I hope that when the T4S build-out is complete that they'll look to upgrading the rest to a commensurate standard. It has been close to 30 years, after all.
 
Runway765
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat May 01, 2021 12:11 am

MrPeanut wrote:
BigPlaneGuy13 wrote:
Any images showing the progress of the new T4S? I've seen it at a glance from some YouTube trip reports but would love to see the progress from a still image.


Image


When is this scheduled to open?
 
MO11
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat May 01, 2021 1:43 am

Next year, probably second quarter.
 
BigPlaneGuy13
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat May 01, 2021 2:00 am

MrPeanut wrote:
BigPlaneGuy13 wrote:
Any images showing the progress of the new T4S? I've seen it at a glance from some YouTube trip reports but would love to see the progress from a still image.


Image


Wow, incredible progress! It looks great. Thanks for uploading.
 
BigPlaneGuy13
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat May 01, 2021 2:04 am

MrPeanut wrote:
Image

It would be nice if at some point they made some upgrades on the existing piers, particularly on the north side. They put up such a nice looking facility at T3, and it's making T4 show its age inside and out. ATL has made some massive esthetic changes to its midfield concourses in recent years, and that interior/exterior facelift gave the facilities some much needed rehab — I hope that when the T4S build-out is complete that they'll look to upgrading the rest to a commensurate standard. It has been close to 30 years, after all.[/quote]

I agree. The new flooring was a nice touch, but it certainly would be nice if they could raise the ceilings a bit and add in some nicer textures similar to the Sedona red rocks utilized in the T4 headhouse on the interior. The exteriors definitely could use a cosmetic facelift.
 
MrPeanut
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat May 01, 2021 2:54 am

Runway765 wrote:
MrPeanut wrote:
BigPlaneGuy13 wrote:
Any images showing the progress of the new T4S? I've seen it at a glance from some YouTube trip reports but would love to see the progress from a still image.


Image


When is this scheduled to open?


I believe Q1-2022. But there is a lot more work than just the concourse. It also includes another walkway to connect the D concourses on the south side of T4 to the A concourses on the north side of T4.
 
MrPeanut
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat May 01, 2021 3:04 am

atcsundevil wrote:
It would be nice if at some point they made some upgrades on the existing piers, particularly on the north side. They put up such a nice looking facility at T3, and it's making T4 show its age inside and out. ATL has made some massive esthetic changes to its midfield concourses in recent years, and that interior/exterior facelift gave the facilities some much needed rehab — I hope that when the T4S build-out is complete that they'll look to upgrading the rest to a commensurate standard. It has been close to 30 years, after all.


Don’t get me started on that. They made “improvements” to the T4 ticketing level. But it looks like they did it on a bare bones budget. White flooring with white walls. It reminds me of an insane asylum. I’ll have to take a picture when I am there next time. It looks bad in my opinion. The only color on that floor is the wall behind Southwest’s ticket counter.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat May 01, 2021 1:25 pm

MrPeanut wrote:
Don’t get me started on that. They made “improvements” to the T4 ticketing level. But it looks like they did it on a bare bones budget. White flooring with white walls. It reminds me of an insane asylum. I’ll have to take a picture when I am there next time. It looks bad in my opinion. The only color on that floor is the wall behind Southwest’s ticket counter.

Sounds like they got a customer comment card that said, "make the place less brown", so they just replaced it with all white. I haven't been in T4 in a few years (I moved away about five years ago) — while I lived there and when I return, I pretty much stick to T2 (RIP) and T3.

In any case, if they're going to do a facelift to the entire terminal, it'll probably cost something in the $300-500 million range if they're going to do it right...which I hope they will. They've come such a long way from the old T2/T3 where so much of the airport looked like it hadn't seen attention in decades, so it would be unfortunate for them to just stop when the T4S build-out is finished. I guess if they keep it rolling with the all white theme it's technically an improvement, but not much of one.
 
dutchspotter1
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat May 01, 2021 1:45 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
We changed hands again about four years ago (maybe six months after the migration), and not long after, development to the site pretty much halted. I don't see that changing anytime soon. It's frustrating for all of us as well, but there's nothing we can do about it.

Makes me wonder if anybody has ever contacted the current owner (whoever they are) over the past four years to express the points of improvement/wishes of the website users (i.e. the photographers and forum users). Maybe the owners are not even aware of the available room for improvement and perhaps they could start a crowdfunding project or introduce a paid premium membership to help financing the development costs.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat May 01, 2021 2:12 pm

dutchspotter1 wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
We changed hands again about four years ago (maybe six months after the migration), and not long after, development to the site pretty much halted. I don't see that changing anytime soon. It's frustrating for all of us as well, but there's nothing we can do about it.

Makes me wonder if anybody has ever contacted the current owner (whoever they are) over the past four years to express the points of improvement/wishes of the website users (i.e. the photographers and forum users). Maybe the owners are not even aware of the available room for improvement and perhaps they could start a crowdfunding project or introduce a paid premium membership to help financing the development costs.

Yes we have been in constant contact with them, and no they won't be implementing paid memberships. VS doesn't operate that way.

Please be sure to get back to the topic, I was simply addressing some background on why it was difficult to post images. Posts like this belong in Site Related.
 
Delta350
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat May 01, 2021 2:26 pm

crownvic wrote:
I hope most of the local aviation enthusiasts from the Phoenix area will be attending Airliners International 2021 in Tempe this July. Something for everyone!
https://airlinersinternational.org/

I'll be there
 
chrisair
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat May 01, 2021 4:05 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
In any case, if they're going to do a facelift to the entire terminal, it'll probably cost something in the $300-500 million range if they're going to do it right...which I hope they will. They've come such a long way from the old T2/T3 where so much of the airport looked like it hadn't seen attention in decades, so it would be unfortunate for them to just stop when the T4S build-out is finished. I guess if they keep it rolling with the all white theme it's technically an improvement, but not much of one.


I doubt there’s much more they can do to the inside of T4 without a major disruption to the operations. It was bad enough in 2019 when they were doing the floor.

What they really need to do is fix the entrance on the east side of the airport. That 202/44th street merge is difficult whenever there are cars in the airport. Cars were backed up to the 202 the other night when I drove by.
 
alasizon
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat May 01, 2021 5:16 pm

BigPlaneGuy13 wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
MrPeanut wrote:
Image

It would be nice if at some point they made some upgrades on the existing piers, particularly on the north side. They put up such a nice looking facility at T3, and it's making T4 show its age inside and out. ATL has made some massive esthetic changes to its midfield concourses in recent years, and that interior/exterior facelift gave the facilities some much needed rehab — I hope that when the T4S build-out is complete that they'll look to upgrading the rest to a commensurate standard. It has been close to 30 years, after all.


I agree. The new flooring was a nice touch, but it certainly would be nice if they could raise the ceilings a bit and add in some nicer textures similar to the Sedona red rocks utilized in the T4 headhouse on the interior. The exteriors definitely could use a cosmetic facelift.


There are three sets of concourses when you look at it from a height perspective, S3/S4 (C Gates), N1/N4 (High-As and High-Bs w/ no full mezzanine), and N2/N3 (Low-As and Low-Bs with a mezzanine). S3/S4 have an internal floor to ceiling height of about 8', N1/N4 are right around 9' in most places, N2/N3 are 9' under the mezzanine and then 23' up to the skylights.. S3/S4 are the only ones that have real opportunity for improvement and last I knew, WN had wanted to remodel S4 to at least lift the ceiling 2'.

The biggest improvement areas for the north side from a view perspective inside would require massive reduction of the vertical pillars which would be extremely disruptive and difficult. The pillars are every six or eight feet and is a lot of work to move the load from those inner pillers to the outer pillars and restrengthen the rest of the load support. Not sure that work could be done while supporting the AA hub.

chrisair wrote:
What they really need to do is fix the entrance on the east side of the airport. That 202/44th street merge is difficult whenever there are cars in the airport. Cars were backed up to the 202 the other night when I drove by.

It isn't so much an airport design issue so much as WN, AA, DL and AS all have their heavy terminating PM banks scheduled all within the same hour, it's a mess every Thursday-Sunday, should be some improvement next week when AA and WN are no longer on the same time slot, AA will be 1930-2030 and WN will be 2030-2130.
 
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BA744PHX
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu May 13, 2021 2:28 pm

Now bookable
Southwest - Hawaii

PHX-HNL from June 27, twice daily
PHX-OGG from June 27, once daily
PHX-LIH from September 08, Tuesday, Thursday & Saturday
PHX-KOA from September 07, Sunday, Monday, Wednesday & Friday

I wonder if AA will respond
HA announced in March, PHX-OGG starting next week May 21, 4 weekly flights

There will be a lot of capacity on PHX-Hawaii this summer, do you think PHX can sustain it?
 
travaz
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu May 13, 2021 3:18 pm

AA PHX HNL is a 777 and a 321neo
AA PHX OGG shows a 777
I also read that PHX is going to be the connection for HNL and OGG for WN.
Hopefully we will see some good fare wars. WN is available for 418.00 RT
 
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BA744PHX
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu May 13, 2021 3:27 pm

travaz wrote:
AA PHX HNL is a 777 and a 321neo
AA PHX OGG shows a 777
I also read that PHX is going to be the connection for HNL and OGG for WN.
Hopefully we will see some good fare wars. WN is available for 418.00 RT


PHX-HNL/OGG on AA has been a mix of 777 / 787 since December - March this past winter.

This will be interesting how it plays out.

Does WN service food on Hawaii flights?
 
910A
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu May 13, 2021 3:57 pm

BA744PHX wrote:
Does WN service food on Hawaii flights?

No...
This is the second time that PHX will have three carriers serving Hawaii non-stop. We had ATA, America West/US Airways and Hawaiian in the first decade of this century. We also had Aloha with their one-stop via SNA to Maui. Someone is going to lose money on this route.
 
MO11
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu May 13, 2021 4:27 pm

BA744PHX wrote:
Now bookable
Southwest - Hawaii

PHX-HNL from June 27, twice daily
PHX-OGG from June 27, once daily
PHX-LIH from September 08, Tuesday, Thursday & Saturday
PHX-KOA from September 07, Sunday, Monday, Wednesday & Friday

I wonder if AA will respond
HA announced in March, PHX-OGG starting next week May 21, 4 weekly flights

There will be a lot of capacity on PHX-Hawaii this summer, do you think PHX can sustain it?


The better surprise will be booking the flight and finding that there are no car rentals.

Second flight from HNL arrives at 2310, so no connecting opportunities.
 
Nonrevhell
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu May 13, 2021 4:32 pm

I'll take a A321neo over a Max any day of the week. Or a 777. I don't know how Southwest can make money on Hawaii, its a tough route.
 
910A
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu May 13, 2021 5:12 pm

More $19 fares..AZCentral is reporting that Frontier is going to start up PHX-BUR on July 15th with $19 fares..Sounds like I heard to $19 to BUR before, I wonder where.
https://www.azcentral.com/story/travel/ ... 054489001/
 
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BA744PHX
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu May 13, 2021 5:17 pm

910A wrote:
More $19 fares..AZCentral is reporting that Frontier is going to start up PHX-BUR on July 15th with $19 fares..Sounds like I heard to $19 to BUR before, I wonder where.
https://www.azcentral.com/story/travel/ ... 054489001/


What is going on with this BUR - PHX/AZA announcements?
AA goes all mainline in August, Avelo starting AZA and now F9, is there something we are missing or not seeing about these cities pairs?
 
jplatts
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu May 13, 2021 5:46 pm

910A wrote:
This is the second time that PHX will have three carriers serving Hawaii non-stop. We had ATA, America West/US Airways and Hawaiian in the first decade of this century. We also had Aloha with their one-stop via SNA to Maui. Someone is going to lose money on this route.


WN might do better than HA on PHX-Hawaii due to
(a) the stronger brand recognition, stronger loyalty, and bigger FF base that WN has in Greater Phoenix and other contiguous U.S. markets,
(b) WN having fewer seats on its 737 MAX 8's than HA does on its A330-200 planes with WN having 175 seats on its 737 MAX 8 planes whereas HA has 278 seats on its A330-200 planes,
(c) WN having significant connecting feed from other contiguous U.S. markets on the PHX end of the route, and
(d) WN not currently serving any international destinations outside of Mexico, Central America, or the Caribbean whereas HA has nonstop long-haul international flights from HNL to Australia, Japan, New Zealand, and South Korea.
 
TripleA
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu May 13, 2021 5:53 pm

BA744PHX wrote:
910A wrote:
More $19 fares..AZCentral is reporting that Frontier is going to start up PHX-BUR on July 15th with $19 fares..Sounds like I heard to $19 to BUR before, I wonder where.
https://www.azcentral.com/story/travel/ ... 054489001/


What is going on with this BUR - PHX/AZA announcements?
AA goes all mainline in August, Avelo starting AZA and now F9, is there something we are missing or not seeing about these cities pairs?


Probably AA and F9 just trying to kill off Avelo.
 
Vctony
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu May 13, 2021 6:26 pm

jplatts wrote:
910A wrote:
This is the second time that PHX will have three carriers serving Hawaii non-stop. We had ATA, America West/US Airways and Hawaiian in the first decade of this century. We also had Aloha with their one-stop via SNA to Maui. Someone is going to lose money on this route.


WN might do better than HA on PHX-Hawaii due to
(a) the stronger brand recognition, stronger loyalty, and bigger FF base that WN has in Greater Phoenix and other contiguous U.S. markets,
(b) WN having fewer seats on its 737 MAX 8's than HA does on its A330-200 planes with WN having 175 seats on its 737 MAX 8 planes whereas HA has 278 seats on its A330-200 planes,
(c) WN having significant connecting feed from other contiguous U.S. markets on the PHX end of the route, and
(d) WN not currently serving any international destinations outside of Mexico, Central America, or the Caribbean whereas HA has nonstop long-haul international flights from HNL to Australia, Japan, New Zealand, and South Korea.


I'm curious if WN's entry in the market means the days of AA's 777/787s and HA's A332s is numbered. I'd imagine that if they all want to survive they may need to cut capacity so AA and HA would revert to A321NEOs.
 
INFINITI329
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu May 13, 2021 6:58 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
MrPeanut wrote:
It's still a pain in the ass regardless. It's an antiquated way of uploading images and actually got worse after the migration.

It is. Unfortunately the platform the then developers chose (phpBB) isn't really conducive to posting images, but it's a solid and commonly used forum platform. They heavily modified the off-the-shelf phpBB into the forum version we're using now, but image uploads just wasn't the priority, because the focus for images went to the database side of the site. It ended up creating a sort of Frankenstein site, which was the whole reason for abandoning the original and frequently broken platform. That was back when we actually had a dedicated developer for the site and the owners actually made an effort at pushing out improvements. We changed hands again about four years ago (maybe six months after the migration), and not long after, development to the site pretty much halted. I don't see that changing anytime soon. It's frustrating for all of us as well, but there's nothing we can do about it.

MrPeanut wrote:
Image

It would be nice if at some point they made some upgrades on the existing piers, particularly on the north side. They put up such a nice looking facility at T3, and it's making T4 show its age inside and out. ATL has made some massive esthetic changes to its midfield concourses in recent years, and that interior/exterior facelift gave the facilities some much needed rehab — I hope that when the T4S build-out is complete that they'll look to upgrading the rest to a commensurate standard. It has been close to 30 years, after all.


From replying to multiple users at once to posting photos prior to the upgrade it was definitely more user-friendly than it is today.
 
INFINITI329
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu May 13, 2021 7:43 pm

Vctony wrote:
jplatts wrote:
910A wrote:
This is the second time that PHX will have three carriers serving Hawaii non-stop. We had ATA, America West/US Airways and Hawaiian in the first decade of this century. We also had Aloha with their one-stop via SNA to Maui. Someone is going to lose money on this route.


WN might do better than HA on PHX-Hawaii due to
(a) the stronger brand recognition, stronger loyalty, and bigger FF base that WN has in Greater Phoenix and other contiguous U.S. markets,
(b) WN having fewer seats on its 737 MAX 8's than HA does on its A330-200 planes with WN having 175 seats on its 737 MAX 8 planes whereas HA has 278 seats on its A330-200 planes,
(c) WN having significant connecting feed from other contiguous U.S. markets on the PHX end of the route, and
(d) WN not currently serving any international destinations outside of Mexico, Central America, or the Caribbean whereas HA has nonstop long-haul international flights from HNL to Australia, Japan, New Zealand, and South Korea.


I'm curious if WN's entry in the market means the days of AA's 777/787s and HA's A332s is numbered. I'd imagine that if they all want to survive they may need to cut capacity so AA and HA would revert to A321NEOs.


HA will be fine. There are people who will opt for the HA widebody and service vs Southwest. Southwest will not all of sudden dominate this market
 
910A
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu May 13, 2021 8:22 pm

INFINITI329 wrote:
HA will be fine. There are people who will opt for the HA widebody and service vs Southwest. Southwest will not all of sudden dominate this market

I agree. The widebody and inflight service by Hawaiian is a marked upgrade from WN..The HA flight now arrives at just after 8pm which is a perfect hour to return so one doesn't need to get up at dawn to go to the HNL airport.
 
Osubuckeyes
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu May 13, 2021 10:13 pm

I think its really important to remember that the more connectivity the WN adds to Hawaii the more it opens up East Coast-Hawaii for them. For instance the late departure to HNL and early morning return should connect to most of of the network out of PHX nicely. To date it was somewhat difficult to get to get from the East Coast to HI on WN.

I think the late PM flight to HNL will be pretty appealing to people, I know I prefer any time I can leave after work to a destination rather than taking up a chunk of PTO in transit. On the Eastbound more daytime options is better, the 2pm timeframe really works great since check-out is typically 11-12, but that arrives back in PHX very late.
 
airzona11
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu May 13, 2021 10:41 pm

This is awesome to see these flights added. When it was announced, got a lot of texts of friends booking trips. Under 30K miles or $340 to Hawaii + Companion pass? Yes please.

910A wrote:
INFINITI329 wrote:
HA will be fine. There are people who will opt for the HA widebody and service vs Southwest. Southwest will not all of sudden dominate this market

I agree. The widebody and inflight service by Hawaiian is a marked upgrade from WN..The HA flight now arrives at just after 8pm which is a perfect hour to return so one doesn't need to get up at dawn to go to the HNL airport.


Agree WN won't steal all the market, but importantly, the market is growing and hot right now. Room for WN AA and HA. AA WN and HA are all flying narrow bodies to OGG. AA with the red eye has the best return option.

The Kona and Lihue flights require an overnight stay to wake up and fly home.

But heck yes these flights are here!
 
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cathay747
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri May 14, 2021 2:42 pm

It's going to be very interesting to see how this plays out with WN entering the Hawaii market, but one thing is certain: it's AA & WN who will be competing with connections over PHX to/from their respective networks, while HA is really dedicated to the local market for the obvious reason that PHX is a spoke for them with no feed. But I feel that they have enough of a loyal customer base in AZ to compete quite successfully.

And I'd have to challenge an earlier comment about HA's brand awareness. While I have no empirical data to support this comment, I'd really have to speculate that HA has good brand awareness in the Valley, and in a fairly large part of the surrounding state, especially given how long they've served PHX.
 
jplatts
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri May 14, 2021 3:09 pm

cathay747 wrote:
It's going to be very interesting to see how this plays out with WN entering the Hawaii market, but one thing is certain: it's AA & WN who will be competing with connections over PHX to/from their respective networks, while HA is really dedicated to the local market for the obvious reason that PHX is a spoke for them with no feed. But I feel that they have enough of a loyal customer base in AZ to compete quite successfully.


One advantage that WN still has over AA in the PHX market is that WN still serves BUF and SDF nonstop from PHX, whereas AA doesn't currently serve either of these destinations nonstop from PHX.

There are some more adds that WN can make in PHX in order to better compete against AA in the PHX market such as
(a) the addition of PHX-RSW/FAT/GRR/HDN/JAX/MIA/MTJ nonstop service,
(b) the return of PHX-BOS nonstop service,
(c) the return of Saturday-only PHX-LGA nonstop service, and
(d) increasing PHX-CVG/IAH nonstop service to daily nonstop service.

There are also a few more adds that AA can make out of PHX to better compete against WN such as the return of PHX-BWI nonstop service and the addition of PHX-BUF/SDF nonstop service.
 
PhilMcCrackin
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri May 14, 2021 6:51 pm

INFINITI329 wrote:
Vctony wrote:
jplatts wrote:

WN might do better than HA on PHX-Hawaii due to
(a) the stronger brand recognition, stronger loyalty, and bigger FF base that WN has in Greater Phoenix and other contiguous U.S. markets,
(b) WN having fewer seats on its 737 MAX 8's than HA does on its A330-200 planes with WN having 175 seats on its 737 MAX 8 planes whereas HA has 278 seats on its A330-200 planes,
(c) WN having significant connecting feed from other contiguous U.S. markets on the PHX end of the route, and
(d) WN not currently serving any international destinations outside of Mexico, Central America, or the Caribbean whereas HA has nonstop long-haul international flights from HNL to Australia, Japan, New Zealand, and South Korea.


I'm curious if WN's entry in the market means the days of AA's 777/787s and HA's A332s is numbered. I'd imagine that if they all want to survive they may need to cut capacity so AA and HA would revert to A321NEOs.


HA will be fine. There are people who will opt for the HA widebody and service vs Southwest. Southwest will not all of sudden dominate this market


Money talks. I booked a trip to Lihue last night for October on these new flights. $360/person RT direct. Hawaiian wants $664 for the same trip with a connection in HNL. AA only wants $380 for the direct. Hawaiian charges for bags and charges for ticket changes on main cabin basic fares, neither of which Southwest charges for. You also don't have the ability to choose your seat on HA.

Now, maybe this is introductory pricing on Southwest's part and maybe Hawaiian can actually demand that $664, but that's a no brainer for me.

Luckily, increased competitions benefits us the consumers and $360/RT is a damn good fare for Hawaii. I've paid more than that on a regular basis to fly to ORD from PHX.
 
MrPeanut
Posts: 261
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:36 pm

Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri May 14, 2021 10:24 pm

910A wrote:
BA744PHX wrote:
Does WN service food on Hawaii flights?

No...
This is the second time that PHX will have three carriers serving Hawaii non-stop. We had ATA, America West/US Airways and Hawaiian in the first decade of this century. We also had Aloha with their one-stop via SNA to Maui. Someone is going to lose money on this route.


Different environment from the early 2000’s
1.) multiple islands now served instead of primarily Oahu in the early 2000’s
2.) Phoenix metro area has 1M to 1.5M more people than the early 2000’s
3.) the issues/timing associated with the re-opening of foreign countries is forcing more Americans to vacation domestically

I think all 3 carriers will be able to find their slice of the pie with AA being the net loser.
 
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cathay747
Posts: 1570
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat May 15, 2021 2:58 pm

PhilMcCrackin wrote:
INFINITI329 wrote:
Vctony wrote:

I'm curious if WN's entry in the market means the days of AA's 777/787s and HA's A332s is numbered. I'd imagine that if they all want to survive they may need to cut capacity so AA and HA would revert to A321NEOs.


HA will be fine. There are people who will opt for the HA widebody and service vs Southwest. Southwest will not all of sudden dominate this market


Money talks. I booked a trip to Lihue last night for October on these new flights. $360/person RT direct. Hawaiian wants $664 for the same trip with a connection in HNL. AA only wants $380 for the direct. Hawaiian charges for bags and charges for ticket changes on main cabin basic fares, neither of which Southwest charges for. You also don't have the ability to choose your seat on HA.

Now, maybe this is introductory pricing on Southwest's part and maybe Hawaiian can actually demand that $664, but that's a no brainer for me.

Luckily, increased competitions benefits us the consumers and $360/RT is a damn good fare for Hawaii. I've paid more than that on a regular basis to fly to ORD from PHX.


I agree with you. Money does talk. If all one cares about is the net price, your choice is easy, whomever has that wins. But I wouldn't throw in that "You also don't have the ability to choose your seat on HA." since WN doesn't even do advance seat selection (or even at check-in), whereas on AA & HA you can get it even if you have to sometimes pay an ancillary fee, but at least it's offered. So that's not a valid comparison.

You did get a terrific price, but I'm with you also on wondering if this is intro pricing or not. We'll have to see of course. It's really going to be interesting to watch this. It already is, given how agressively WN is launching with nonstops to all 4 islands, whereas HA is only just now getting going on a Neighbor Island nonstop from here after being in the market for so long.
 
alasizon
Posts: 3041
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed May 26, 2021 3:32 am

Allegiant adds PHX-PVU/SCK and AZA-PIT (for those who didn't see the actual thread on it)
https://www.azcentral.com/story/travel/ ... 422935002/

Actual Thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1461163
 
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cathay747
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed May 26, 2021 1:52 pm

As from 01JUN, Boutique is suspending their operation at PRC, so yet again, air service between PHX & PRC gets axed. I found out because they called me last nite to tell me my return flight on 01JUN was canceled due to their closing up ops in PRC on that date. So, I never even got to try this service, which I was VERY much looking forward to so as to eliminate the drive I HATE on I-17. It so pisses me off how air service just never works in this market.
 
alasizon
Posts: 3041
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri May 28, 2021 1:24 am

cathay747 wrote:
As from 01JUN, Boutique is suspending their operation at PRC, so yet again, air service between PHX & PRC gets axed. I found out because they called me last nite to tell me my return flight on 01JUN was canceled due to their closing up ops in PRC on that date. So, I never even got to try this service, which I was VERY much looking forward to so as to eliminate the drive I HATE on I-17. It so pisses me off how air service just never works in this market.


The desire for service is there but I just don't see it being feasible without the network connectivity which Boutique lacks badly. Perhaps PRC would submit for a SCASD grant one year for service to PHX.
 
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cathay747
Posts: 1570
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Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri May 28, 2021 2:49 pm

alasizon wrote:
cathay747 wrote:
As from 01JUN, Boutique is suspending their operation at PRC, so yet again, air service between PHX & PRC gets axed. I found out because they called me last nite to tell me my return flight on 01JUN was canceled due to their closing up ops in PRC on that date. So, I never even got to try this service, which I was VERY much looking forward to so as to eliminate the drive I HATE on I-17. It so pisses me off how air service just never works in this market.


The desire for service is there but I just don't see it being feasible without the network connectivity which Boutique lacks badly. Perhaps PRC would submit for a SCASD grant one year for service to PHX.


I'm presuming that their suspension is driven by little-to-no traffic, which I can only attribute to it being operated by a single-engined 8-seater; I think that's a major turn-off to people. Hell, even I was hesitant on the idea. At $69 each way (for as long as that fare would be available) it was double the cost of the Groome Transportation shuttle van (which is $39) but I don't think that's bad. I guess people are more cheap than I thought...coupled with those squeamish about the aircraft type, it was doomed I guess. And I don't see how their partnership with UA helped...I looked at schedules in the GDS for ORD-PRC, and not one connection via PHX with 4B showed, so, so much for that. Didn't make sense anyway with UA Express running the CR2's DEN-PRC-LAX and v.v. Now THAT seems to be working; I forget when UA started it, but it even survived COVID cutbacks!

You're quite right of course about 4B's lack of feed/connectivity, which AA of course has in spades, but...no equipment to operate it. I mean...Great Lakes couldn't sustain it with B1900's, now 4B can't with something half that size, so I see NO way AA could make a CR7 work like they have on PHX-FLG.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 4458
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri May 28, 2021 3:34 pm

I was looking at the Spirit route map from PHX after they announced STL-PHX yesterday. I was a little surprised it isn't bigger. Seems like PHX would have a good draw at least seasonally in winter. I know G4 has AZA (and now a couple PHX) but even with the 2 big airline hubs I figured there was some more room for Spirit.
 
LASVegan
Posts: 119
Joined: Sun Jun 14, 2020 5:29 pm

Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri May 28, 2021 3:46 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
I was looking at the Spirit route map from PHX after they announced STL-PHX yesterday. I was a little surprised it isn't bigger. Seems like PHX would have a good draw at least seasonally in winter. I know G4 has AZA (and now a couple PHX) but even with the 2 big airline hubs I figured there was some more room for Spirit.


I agree. PHX seems like it’s ripe for more Spirit service, I’m surprised they haven’t really made much of a go of it yet. ORD, DFW, and MSP have been around for years and remain. LAX and LAS (from AZA when they operated there) were tried but short lived. DEN lasted for years but was recently cut. SNA and SEA were served in the recent past but cut due to covid yet slated for return. DTW and STL are the new kids on the PHX block for Spirit. As Spirit transitions back to more of a sun seeker airline, hopefully we see PHX get a little bit more love. I do think more west coast, Midwest, and Northeast will eventually be in the cards.
 
jmc1975
Posts: 3120
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2000 10:57 am

Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri May 28, 2021 3:54 pm

cathay747 wrote:
alasizon wrote:
cathay747 wrote:
As from 01JUN, Boutique is suspending their operation at PRC, so yet again, air service between PHX & PRC gets axed. I found out because they called me last nite to tell me my return flight on 01JUN was canceled due to their closing up ops in PRC on that date. So, I never even got to try this service, which I was VERY much looking forward to so as to eliminate the drive I HATE on I-17. It so pisses me off how air service just never works in this market.


The desire for service is there but I just don't see it being feasible without the network connectivity which Boutique lacks badly. Perhaps PRC would submit for a SCASD grant one year for service to PHX.


I'm presuming that their suspension is driven by little-to-no traffic, which I can only attribute to it being operated by a single-engined 8-seater; I think that's a major turn-off to people. Hell, even I was hesitant on the idea. At $69 each way (for as long as that fare would be available) it was double the cost of the Groome Transportation shuttle van (which is $39) but I don't think that's bad. I guess people are more cheap than I thought...coupled with those squeamish about the aircraft type, it was doomed I guess. And I don't see how their partnership with UA helped...I looked at schedules in the GDS for ORD-PRC, and not one connection via PHX with 4B showed, so, so much for that. Didn't make sense anyway with UA Express running the CR2's DEN-PRC-LAX and v.v. Now THAT seems to be working; I forget when UA started it, but it even survived COVID cutbacks!

You're quite right of course about 4B's lack of feed/connectivity, which AA of course has in spades, but...no equipment to operate it. I mean...Great Lakes couldn't sustain it with B1900's, now 4B can't with something half that size, so I see NO way AA could make a CR7 work like they have on PHX-FLG.

You are correct in that a CR7 would be too large and expensive for PHX-PRC, plus you actually need frequency for various connectivity to make a short hop like that viable. If AA/YV still had Dash 8s from the US days, that would’ve been certainly more appropriate. A one-daily AA CR7 DFW-PRC would probably bring more network value than PHX-PRC.
 
MrPeanut
Posts: 261
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:36 pm

Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri May 28, 2021 4:06 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
I was looking at the Spirit route map from PHX after they announced STL-PHX yesterday. I was a little surprised it isn't bigger. Seems like PHX would have a good draw at least seasonally in winter. I know G4 has AZA (and now a couple PHX) but even with the 2 big airline hubs I figured there was some more room for Spirit.


Frontier pretty much cornered the ULCC market at PHX.
 
PhilMcCrackin
Posts: 379
Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:54 pm

Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri May 28, 2021 4:18 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
I was looking at the Spirit route map from PHX after they announced STL-PHX yesterday. I was a little surprised it isn't bigger. Seems like PHX would have a good draw at least seasonally in winter. I know G4 has AZA (and now a couple PHX) but even with the 2 big airline hubs I figured there was some more room for Spirit.


There's a lot of competition on that route. AA, WN, Frontier, and G4 from AZA-BLV. AA used to run 4x daily even in the summer and IIRC, now they're down to 2x daily. I'd still like to see a direct AZA-STL as I live about 5 mins away from AZA.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 4458
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri May 28, 2021 5:28 pm

PhilMcCrackin wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
I was looking at the Spirit route map from PHX after they announced STL-PHX yesterday. I was a little surprised it isn't bigger. Seems like PHX would have a good draw at least seasonally in winter. I know G4 has AZA (and now a couple PHX) but even with the 2 big airline hubs I figured there was some more room for Spirit.


There's a lot of competition on that route. AA, WN, Frontier, and G4 from AZA-BLV. AA used to run 4x daily even in the summer and IIRC, now they're down to 2x daily. I'd still like to see a direct AZA-STL as I live about 5 mins away from AZA.


F9 doesn't run STL-PHX. Hasn't in a few years. That was one of their short lived dart board routes if I remember, with ATL and TPA.

I guess you get to choose if you want the longer drive on the AZA/PHX side or the STL/BLV side.
 
INFINITI329
Posts: 2604
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:53 am

Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri May 28, 2021 6:15 pm

Will Southwest have to do proving run flights for their new PHX- Hawaii flights?
 
chrisair
Posts: 2230
Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2000 11:32 pm

Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri May 28, 2021 6:42 pm

INFINITI329 wrote:
Will Southwest have to do proving run flights for their new PHX- Hawaii flights?


Why would they have to do proving runs? They've been flying to Hawaii since March 2019.
 
PhilMcCrackin
Posts: 379
Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:54 pm

Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri May 28, 2021 7:24 pm

INFINITI329 wrote:
Will Southwest have to do proving run flights for their new PHX- Hawaii flights?


I don't think so. Those were only done for ETOPS certification purposes, which Southwest has had for a while now.

I was looking at PHX-LIH flight time and wasn't real impressed with an evening departure. I went for the morning LAX departure instead.
 
INFINITI329
Posts: 2604
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:53 am

Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri May 28, 2021 11:23 pm

chrisair wrote:
INFINITI329 wrote:
Will Southwest have to do proving run flights for their new PHX- Hawaii flights?


Why would they have to do proving runs? They've been flying to Hawaii since March 2019.


I was under the impression carriers had to do it for each ETOPS route, but I guess I was wrong

PhilMcCrackin wrote:
INFINITI329 wrote:
Will Southwest have to do proving run flights for their new PHX- Hawaii flights?


I don't think so. Those were only done for ETOPS certification purposes, which Southwest has had for a while now.

I was looking at PHX-LIH flight time and wasn't real impressed with an evening departure. I went for the morning LAX departure instead.


Its not worth losing a whole day
 
PhilMcCrackin
Posts: 379
Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:54 pm

Re: Phoenix Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Jun 01, 2021 7:55 pm

INFINITI329 wrote:
chrisair wrote:
INFINITI329 wrote:
Will Southwest have to do proving run flights for their new PHX- Hawaii flights?


Why would they have to do proving runs? They've been flying to Hawaii since March 2019.


I was under the impression carriers had to do it for each ETOPS route, but I guess I was wrong

PhilMcCrackin wrote:
INFINITI329 wrote:
Will Southwest have to do proving run flights for their new PHX- Hawaii flights?


I don't think so. Those were only done for ETOPS certification purposes, which Southwest has had for a while now.

I was looking at PHX-LIH flight time and wasn't real impressed with an evening departure. I went for the morning LAX departure instead.


Its not worth losing a whole day


In terms of what? Flying through LAX in the morning gets you there by 11AM. Otherwise, you're going to be landing at 9PM with all of the other mainland flights and PHLI is a madhouse at that time.

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