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N415XJ
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Re: The Rest of Michigan Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed May 12, 2021 3:29 am

So, something I've been thinking about lately in regards to Marquette (MQT/KSAW). With DL (OO) seemingly winding down 50-seat CR2 flying, what is the future looking like for their long standing Marquette service? Is there a potential for larger RJs (Eagle operated the CR7 to ORD for a while)? Or, is there a potential for MQT losing DL's service in the medium/long term.

DL now serves both MSP and DTW (I believe there was a hiatus in MSP service a few years ago) and the route isn't EAS. So, it must be making them money in some way, either directly or indirectly through their hub system. Still though, I've always been a little surprised (as a native to the area) that MQT can sustain 4 daily flights to 3 different hubs on 2 different airlines without an EAS subsidy. Does anyone know if both AA (MQ) and DL (OO) are generally happy with their arrangement at MQT? Are the services hanging on by a thread or are bigger planes (or who knows maybe even a 3rd operator) a possibility in the medium/long term?
 
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JBo
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Re: The Rest of Michigan Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed May 12, 2021 3:39 am

N415XJ wrote:
So, something I've been thinking about lately in regards to Marquette (MQT/KSAW). With DL (OO) seemingly winding down 50-seat CR2 flying, what is the future looking like for their long standing Marquette service? Is there a potential for larger RJs (Eagle operated the CR7 to ORD for a while)? Or, is there a potential for MQT losing DL's service in the medium/long term.

DL now serves both MSP and DTW (I believe there was a hiatus in MSP service a few years ago) and the route isn't EAS. So, it must be making them money in some way, either directly or indirectly through their hub system. Still though, I've always been a little surprised (as a native to the area) that MQT can sustain 4 daily flights to 3 different hubs on 2 different airlines without an EAS subsidy. Does anyone know if both AA (MQ) and DL (OO) are generally happy with their arrangement at MQT? Are the services hanging on by a thread or are bigger planes (or who knows maybe even a 3rd operator) a possibility in the medium/long term?


Even though DL is winding down 50-seat flying under its CPA agreements, I imagine we'll still see a handful of CR2s in DL colors being flown at-risk by the regional operators, like SkyWest is already doing with their EAS contracts in the U.P.
I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
 
SyracuseAvGeek
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Re: The Rest of Michigan Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu May 27, 2021 7:52 pm

Found a video of Delta’s shortest flight from DTW to LAN:

https://youtu.be/J2QzujYIZq4
"I haven't been everywhere yet, but it's on my list."
 
KarlB737
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Re: The Rest of Michigan Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:53 pm

I spotted an uptick in Cape Air flights to MBL here:

https://flightaware.com/live/airport/KMBL


Then I noted this writeup here:


Courtesy: Manistee News Advocate

Cape Air Adds Additional Daily Flights Between Manistee, Chicago O'Hare

https://www.manisteenews.com/local-news/article/Cape-Air-adds-additional-daily-flights-between-16199994.php
 
SyracuseAvGeek
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Re: The Rest of Michigan Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Jun 08, 2021 6:45 pm

KarlB737 wrote:
I spotted an uptick in Cape Air flights to MBL here:

https://flightaware.com/live/airport/KMBL


Then I noted this writeup here:


Courtesy: Manistee News Advocate

Cape Air Adds Additional Daily Flights Between Manistee, Chicago O'Hare

https://www.manisteenews.com/local-news/article/Cape-Air-adds-additional-daily-flights-between-16199994.php


Yep, it’s part of their EAS contract. They have 2 daily flights in the winter, and it goes up to 4 daily from Memorial Day until Labor Day .

But a ribbon cutting for a flight increase, really? I don’t think that’s really necessary, it’s a total PR move.

https://youtu.be/sHL8q5h7iqk
"I haven't been everywhere yet, but it's on my list."
 
MILakes
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Re: The Rest of Michigan Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:10 pm

SyracuseAvGeek wrote:
KarlB737 wrote:
I spotted an uptick in Cape Air flights to MBL here:

https://flightaware.com/live/airport/KMBL


Then I noted this writeup here:


Courtesy: Manistee News Advocate

Cape Air Adds Additional Daily Flights Between Manistee, Chicago O'Hare

https://www.manisteenews.com/local-news/article/Cape-Air-adds-additional-daily-flights-between-16199994.php


Yep, it’s part of their EAS contract. They have 2 daily flights in the winter, and it goes up to 4 daily from Memorial Day until Labor Day .

But a ribbon cutting for a flight increase, really? I don’t think that’s really necessary, it’s a total PR move.

https://youtu.be/sHL8q5h7iqk



Have you ever been to Manistee? :) This is big news there...
DTW to HSV with 5 stops...lifetime airline enthusiast
 
SyracuseAvGeek
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Re: The Rest of Michigan Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:12 pm

MILakes wrote:
SyracuseAvGeek wrote:
KarlB737 wrote:
I spotted an uptick in Cape Air flights to MBL here:

https://flightaware.com/live/airport/KMBL


Then I noted this writeup here:


Courtesy: Manistee News Advocate

Cape Air Adds Additional Daily Flights Between Manistee, Chicago O'Hare

https://www.manisteenews.com/local-news/article/Cape-Air-adds-additional-daily-flights-between-16199994.php


Yep, it’s part of their EAS contract. They have 2 daily flights in the winter, and it goes up to 4 daily from Memorial Day until Labor Day .

But a ribbon cutting for a flight increase, really? I don’t think that’s really necessary, it’s a total PR move.

https://youtu.be/sHL8q5h7iqk



Have you ever been to Manistee? :) This is big news there...


I mean, it’s kinda news. It’s been planned since the start and it part of the EAS contract.
"I haven't been everywhere yet, but it's on my list."
 
RJNUT
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Re: The Rest of Michigan Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:15 pm

the five per day on Sundays seems like an add-on from what was promised? Will do well . Always nice to see a little "market" response in an EAS station.
 
KarlB737
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Re: The Rest of Michigan Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:27 pm

MILakes wrote:
Have you ever been to Manistee? This is big news there...


Yes, I have been there and I took a look at Blacker Airport. However, when I was there it was before they completely replaced their passenger terminal. With regards to the increase in flights to Chicago I have to assume that fliers in the area are making serious use of this air service. This isn't always the case in a market this size so I am pleased that if the number of fliers is actually up that it continues.
 
MILakes
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Re: The Rest of Michigan Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:38 pm

Thanks KarlB737, that's exactly my point. In a small town like this (population about 6K) any increase in service (even predetermined EAS) is pretty impressive. Even more so considering summer vacationers in that area have other decent options (GRR 2.5 hours; TVC 1.5 hours).
DTW to HSV with 5 stops...lifetime airline enthusiast
 
drdisque
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Re: The Rest of Michigan Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:24 pm

MILakes wrote:
Thanks KarlB737, that's exactly my point. In a small town like this (population about 6K) any increase in service (even predetermined EAS) is pretty impressive. Even more so considering summer vacationers in that area have other decent options (GRR 2.5 hours; TVC 1.5 hours).


A lot of the appeal of flying to MBL for vacationers was the subsidized EAS fares are often way lower than the fares to TVC or GRR. Although this summer I've noticed UA at least offering much lower than normal fares on ORD-TVC. Perhaps there's a bit too much capacity filed for TVC this summer.
 
MILakes
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Re: The Rest of Michigan Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:17 pm

drdisque wrote:
A lot of the appeal of flying to MBL for vacationers was the subsidized EAS fares are often way lower than the fares to TVC or GRR. Although this summer I've noticed UA at least offering much lower than normal fares on ORD-TVC. Perhaps there's a bit too much capacity filed for TVC this summer.


Great point, and I also saw United's lower fares into TVC when I looked last week. Surprising, I had mostly seen AA drop a bit going into summer but don't recall UA/DL. For the last many years it was a given to fly into GRR and drive up - but not many things are "normal" now. And you may be right about TVC capacity this summer given the usual frequency adds and continued increase in destinations (many Sat only) - along with Allegiant's presence. Will be interesting if there are any subtle near-term capacity/route changes thru the season.
DTW to HSV with 5 stops...lifetime airline enthusiast
 
KarlB737
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Re: The Rest of Michigan Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon Jun 14, 2021 2:17 pm

drdisque wrote:
Perhaps there's a bit too much capacity filed for TVC this summer.


At some point you have to wonder if TVC's fairly new terminal will require expansion to handle all these added flights. Note overhead view below with link:

Courtesy: Google

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Cherry+Capital+Airport/@44.7392526,-85.5795847,231a,35y,180h,39.36t/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x881fcd125b902ba9:0xfff72872bdc528ed!8m2!3d44.7369137!4d-85.5796208
 
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tjwgrr
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Allegiant in GRR

Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:13 pm

I was having a conversation with someone over the weekend about Allegiant in GRR. I looked at all the cities they now serve from GRR, and it's quite impressive, albeit some are seasonal, and many are only 2x per week:

AUS
BOS
VPS
FLL (seasonal)
LAS
LAX
BNA
EWR
SFB
AZA
PDX (seasonal)
PGD
RAP (2 weeks in August)
SRQ
SAV
PIE

It appears there are three A320s based here at the present time. I have seen as many as four RON in the past.
Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
 
keithvh2001
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Re: The Rest of Michigan Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:24 pm

MILakes wrote:
Have you ever been to Manistee? :) This is big news there...


LOL, yes indeed! I married a gal from Manistee County. It's busier now than it was 10-20 years ago, but Manistee County is still the quietest county along the Lake Michigan shoreline from New Buffalo to Traverse City.

One of America's best-rated golf courses (Arcadia Bluffs) is in the county, of course.

KarlB737 wrote:
I spotted an uptick in Cape Air flights to MBL here:


Those flights also have an American Airlines Codeshare.

I was connecting through O'Hare (DTW-ORD-DEN, so wasn't coming through MBL) a week ago and I noticed a couple things:

1. The flight boards showed the ORD-MBL flights leaving from the M Gates (International Terminal). I don't know if that is always the case: it was a Sunday and AA gate utilization was high that day. But an M gate arrival/departure would not be fun for connections.

2. The American flight boards also listed the location as "Manistee Blacker Airport." Which is true, that is the destination. But for some reason the flight boards show that instead of simply saying "Manistee, MI."
 
drdisque
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Re: The Rest of Michigan Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:40 pm

keithvh2001 wrote:

1. The flight boards showed the ORD-MBL flights leaving from the M Gates (International Terminal). That is not fun for connections.



I don't know why it was saying that - maybe a problem with the AA monitors, but Cape Air Still uses gate L11A in Terminal 3. There is some talk that they will move to Terminal 5 at some point during the redevelopment, especially because the original part of concourse L is supposed to be completely gutted, but that hasn't happened yet.
 
keithvh2001
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Re: The Rest of Michigan Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:48 pm

drdisque wrote:

I don't know why it was saying that - maybe a problem with the AA monitors, but Cape Air Still uses gate L11A in Terminal 3. There is some talk that they will move to Terminal 5 at some point during the redevelopment, especially because the original part of concourse L is supposed to be completely gutted, but that hasn't happened yet.


OK. That would make a whole lot more sense.

I'll be in Manistee in August - maybe I'll fly it this time and have a trip report.
 
9w748capt
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Re: The Rest of Michigan Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:50 pm

Just curious - how is the rest of MI doing in terms of ramping up frequencies to pre-covid levels? Kind of frustrating to see AZO-ORD only twice daily on AA for the summer. Now that we're all vaccinated I want to go see my folks more, but fares are just bonkers.
 
kavok
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Re: The Rest of Michigan Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:17 pm

9w748capt wrote:
Just curious - how is the rest of MI doing in terms of ramping up frequencies to pre-covid levels? Kind of frustrating to see AZO-ORD only twice daily on AA for the summer. Now that we're all vaccinated I want to go see my folks more, but fares are just bonkers.


Aside from the TVC adds, the rest of the state from DTW to the U.P. has been slow to rebound capacity wise. Pax volumes are right about where you’d expect, meaning the load factors are decent given the reduced capacity.., and thus fares are generally not very discounted (relatively speaking).

Much of that is likely do to the fact that:
1- ULCC carriers struggle in Michigan during the summer, as a cheap vacation for many Michiganders is simply to load up the car and head north. (i.e. the local sun/beach crowd doesn’t fly in the summer like it does the other half of the year).

2- For the legacy type travelers, Delta dominates most of the local Michigan base of frequent flyers, even outside DTW in places like GRR, LAN, MBS. As we all know, Delta has been the most conservative of the US3+WN in adding new routes, and DTW has seen the least amount of new routes among DL’s four core hubs… which means for those DL flyers in Michigan… there really isn’t a new or exciting new route to entice travel. And AA/UA/WN are hesitant to grow routes in Michigan on their end, because Delta will retaliate (and be effective in doing so).

So much of the high fares are due to supply and demand. The airlines haven’t really felt the need to increase capacity in Michigan, and thus what passenger volume increase that does exist is driving up the prices.
 
SyracuseAvGeek
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Re: The Rest of Michigan Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:48 pm

kavok wrote:
9w748capt wrote:
Just curious - how is the rest of MI doing in terms of ramping up frequencies to pre-covid levels? Kind of frustrating to see AZO-ORD only twice daily on AA for the summer. Now that we're all vaccinated I want to go see my folks more, but fares are just bonkers.


Aside from the TVC adds, the rest of the state from DTW to the U.P. has been slow to rebound capacity wise. Pax volumes are right about where you’d expect, meaning the load factors are decent given the reduced capacity.., and thus fares are generally not very discounted (relatively speaking).

Much of that is likely do to the fact that:
1- ULCC carriers struggle in Michigan during the summer, as a cheap vacation for many Michiganders is simply to load up the car and head north. (i.e. the local sun/beach crowd doesn’t fly in the summer like it does the other half of the year).

2- For the legacy type travelers, Delta dominates most of the local Michigan base of frequent flyers, even outside DTW in places like GRR, LAN, MBS. As we all know, Delta has been the most conservative of the US3+WN in adding new routes, and DTW has seen the least amount of new routes among DL’s four core hubs… which means for those DL flyers in Michigan… there really isn’t a new or exciting new route to entice travel. And AA/UA/WN are hesitant to grow routes in Michigan on their end, because Delta will retaliate (and be effective in doing so).

So much of the high fares are due to supply and demand. The airlines haven’t really felt the need to increase capacity in Michigan, and thus what passenger volume increase that does exist is driving up the prices.



I believe the Delta flight from AZO-MSP is resuming sometime this month.
"I haven't been everywhere yet, but it's on my list."
 
NoahV37
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Re: The Rest of Michigan Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat Jun 19, 2021 3:44 pm

In February, it looks like Southwest passed Delta to become GRR's #2 carrier.
Current March 2021
1. Allegiant- 22.24%
2. Southwest- 16.79%
3. Delta- 13.36%
4. SkyWest- 7.76%
5. Envoy- 6.76%

March 2020
1. Delta- 23.97%
2. Allegiant- 14.67%
3. Southwest- 11.24%
4. SkyWest- 9.32%
5. PSA 6.15%

March 2019
1. Delta- 24.56%
2. Southwest- 13.51%
3. Allegiant- 10.13%
4. Envoy- 6.98%
5. SkyWest- 6.77%

Allegiant has more than doubled their market share since 2019. Delta, on the other hand, has nearly half the market share they did in 2019.
 
WidebodyPTV
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Re: The Rest of Michigan Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:08 pm

NoahV37 wrote:
In February, it looks like Southwest passed Delta to become GRR's #2 carrier.
Current March 2021
1. Allegiant- 22.24%
2. Southwest- 16.79%
3. Delta- 13.36%
4. SkyWest- 7.76%
5. Envoy- 6.76%

March 2020
1. Delta- 23.97%
2. Allegiant- 14.67%
3. Southwest- 11.24%
4. SkyWest- 9.32%
5. PSA 6.15%

March 2019
1. Delta- 24.56%
2. Southwest- 13.51%
3. Allegiant- 10.13%
4. Envoy- 6.98%
5. SkyWest- 6.77%

Allegiant has more than doubled their market share since 2019. Delta, on the other hand, has nearly half the market share they did in 2019.


Interesting but not really meaningful when there’s little demand for business travel at the moment.
 
N292UX
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Re: The Rest of Michigan Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:32 pm

A few ORD/MDW diversions in GRR. A SKW CRJ-700 operating CVG-ORD diverted to GRR today. There's also a WN 737 (WN8826) departing to CMH around 6:00 this afternoon, however I cannot figure out whether it is a diversion or not.
 
Jshank83
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Re: The Rest of Michigan Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:38 pm

N292UX wrote:
A few ORD/MDW diversions in GRR. A SKW CRJ-700 operating CVG-ORD diverted to GRR today. There's also a WN 737 (WN8826) departing to CMH around 6:00 this afternoon, however I cannot figure out whether it is a diversion or not.


repositioning I am guessing GRR-MDW WN351 was canceled so this is probably just moving the plane.
 
KarlB737
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Re: The Rest of Michigan Aviation Thread - 2021

Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:44 pm

 
SkyVoice
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Re: The Rest of Michigan Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:18 pm

Two questions; 1) Is there any future for more passenger air traffic at Muskegon (MKG) than the current EAS 2X/day schedule to ORD? 2) What's the story about the pole-mounted jet fighter on gate guard duty at Ludington (LDM)?

Thanks, and have a great Fourth!
Addicted to opiate painkillers for 25 years. Sober since 3 April, 2012!
 
CALMSP
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Re: The Rest of Michigan Aviation Thread - 2021

Sat Jul 03, 2021 11:02 pm

SkyVoice wrote:
Two questions; 1) Is there any future for more passenger air traffic at Muskegon (MKG) than the current EAS 2X/day schedule to ORD? 2) What's the story about the pole-mounted jet fighter on gate guard duty at Ludington (LDM)?

Thanks, and have a great Fourth!



Id say no unless more props are brought back into the market.
 
KarlB737
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Re: The Rest of Michigan Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon Jul 05, 2021 12:56 pm

SkyVoice wrote:
Is there any future for more passenger air traffic at Muskegon (MKG) than the current EAS 2X/day schedule to ORD?


What service does MKG want that they don't have? Secondly, as always been the case is the close proximity to GRR which I believe is the biggest reason that MKG is slighted by airlines. As GRR has continued to grow by leaps and bounds in available air service it just makes it that much harder for MKG to get anything more.
 
RJNUT
Posts: 1957
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 1999 1:58 am

Re: The Rest of Michigan Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon Jul 05, 2021 1:08 pm

MKG did get added frequency this summer with 3 daily departures.
 
jplatts
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Re: The Rest of Michigan Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed Jul 07, 2021 3:16 pm

kavok wrote:
2- For the legacy type travelers, Delta dominates most of the local Michigan base of frequent flyers, even outside DTW in places like GRR, LAN, MBS. As we all know, Delta has been the most conservative of the US3+WN in adding new routes, and DTW has seen the least amount of new routes among DL’s four core hubs… which means for those DL flyers in Michigan… there really isn’t a new or exciting new route to entice travel. And AA/UA/WN are hesitant to grow routes in Michigan on their end, because Delta will retaliate (and be effective in doing so).

So much of the high fares are due to supply and demand. The airlines haven’t really felt the need to increase capacity in Michigan, and thus what passenger volume increase that does exist is driving up the prices.


There are some more nonstop routes that could be added out of both GRR and TVC on at least a summer seasonal basis with the amount of demand that is there to Western Michigan during the summertime (especially around the 4th of July), including GRR-BOS/LGA on AA, GRR-BOS/SLC on DL, GRR-ATL/DAL/HOU/LAS/BNA/PHX/STL on WN, TVC-SLC on DL, and TVC-IAH on UA.

WN would also have significant point-of-sale outside of Michigan along with connecting feed to support GRR-DAL/HOU/LAS/BNA/PHX/STL nonstop service, and some of the connecting flights to GRR through MDW on WN were completely sold out around the 4th of July weekend this year.

WN adds out of GRR to non-DL hub destinations such as DAL, HOU, LAS, BNA, PHX, and STL can likely withstand competitive responses from DL as
(a) DL is unlikely to add GRR-DFW/IAH/LAS/BNA/PHX/STL nonstop service,
(b) WN already has a significant FF base in the DAL/DFW, HOU/IAH, LAS, BNA, PHX, STL, and other markets in the West, Midwest, and South to support nonstop service out of GRR to additional destinations on WN, and
(d) there would be some travelers traveling to GRR from places outside of Michigan who would continue to choose WN over DL if DL responds to WN adds out of GRR by increasing frequencies to DL hubs or lowering fares on connecting flights.
 
RJNUT
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Re: The Rest of Michigan Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed Jul 07, 2021 3:32 pm

im willing to pay the high fares to TVC vs. searching for a cheap deal out of GRR. Its not worth the 3 hour drive from the tip of Leelanau. Manistee has offered some interesting options i have noticed this summer using the Cape Air to ORD and the interlines with B6,UA and AA. Often lower than TVC!
 
jplatts
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Re: The Rest of Michigan Aviation Thread - 2021

Sun Jul 18, 2021 1:36 am

Here were the number of passengers, number of seats, and load factors for WN flights out of GRR in April 2021:
BWI-GRR - 4115 passengers, 8601 seats, 47.84% load factor
DEN-GRR - 7529 passengers, 9476 seats, 79.45% load factor
GRR-MCO - 7936 passengers, 10157 seats, 78.13% load factor
GRR-MDW - 15572 passengers, 20214 seats, 77.04% load factor
GRR-RSW - 7104 passengers, 9617 seats, 73.87% load factor
GRR-TPA - 1372 passengers, 1701 seats, 80.66% load factor

WN actually carried more passengers out of GRR in April 2021 than it did in April 2019, and GRR was also one of the few WN stations that had stronger demand for WN service in April 2021 than in April 2019.
 
jplatts
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Re: The Rest of Michigan Aviation Thread - 2021

Sun Jul 18, 2021 1:41 am

WN adding GRR-PHX nonstop service is a possibility with
(a) PHX being one of the top destinations traveled to from GRR that isn't currently served nonstop from GRR,
(b) F9 no longer serving PHX nonstop from GRR, and
(c) WN being able to offer connections to Vegas and Southern California through PHX.

Here were the number of passengers, number of seats, and load factor for F9 GRR-PHX nonstop service in 2019:
13627 passengers, 17334 seats, 78.61% load factor

GRR can likely support nonstop service to PHX on more than just AA with the load factors that F9 was getting on GRR-PHX nonstop service prior to the COVID-19 pandemic.

WN would also probably be able to more easily fill GRR-PHX nonstop flights than F9 would with the connections that WN would be offering to Vegas and Southern California through PHX along with WN being able to operate GRR-PHX nonstop flights with 143-seat 737-700 planes that have fewer seats than F9's 180-seat A320's. WN also already has a significant FF base in Greater Phoenix, Vegas, and Southern California to support GRR-PHX nonstop service on WN.
 
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kitplane01
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Re: The Rest of Michigan Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon Jul 19, 2021 10:53 pm

N415XJ wrote:
So, something I've been thinking about lately in regards to Marquette (MQT/KSAW). With DL (OO) seemingly winding down 50-seat CR2 flying, what is the future looking like for their long standing Marquette service? Is there a potential for larger RJs (Eagle operated the CR7 to ORD for a while)? Or, is there a potential for MQT losing DL's service in the medium/long term.

DL now serves both MSP and DTW (I believe there was a hiatus in MSP service a few years ago) and the route isn't EAS. So, it must be making them money in some way, either directly or indirectly through their hub system. Still though, I've always been a little surprised (as a native to the area) that MQT can sustain 4 daily flights to 3 different hubs on 2 different airlines without an EAS subsidy. Does anyone know if both AA (MQ) and DL (OO) are generally happy with their arrangement at MQT? Are the services hanging on by a thread or are bigger planes (or who knows maybe even a 3rd operator) a possibility in the medium/long term?



I’m sorry I don’t have an answer to that question.

I note that flights from iron Mountain are subsidized by EAS and flights from Marquette or not. Sometimes it is cheaper to drive an hour and a half to get the EAS subsidized flights. Marquette would have more traffic if EAS wasn’t subsidizing neighboring airports but not us. EAS is making Marquette airlines worse!
 
FCOTSTW
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Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:14 pm

Re: The Rest of Michigan Aviation Thread - 2021

Mon Jul 19, 2021 11:10 pm

Hi folks, anyone knows when DL will go back to FNT? Thanks
 
drdisque
Posts: 1461
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:57 am

Re: The Rest of Michigan Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Jul 20, 2021 3:35 am

FCOTSTW wrote:
Hi folks, anyone knows when DL will go back to FNT? Thanks


Quite possibly never.
 
keithvh2001
Posts: 51
Joined: Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:21 pm

Re: The Rest of Michigan Aviation Thread - 2021

Tue Jul 20, 2021 4:24 am

N415XJ wrote:
So, something I've been thinking about lately in regards to Marquette (MQT/KSAW). With DL (OO) seemingly winding down 50-seat CR2 flying, what is the future looking like for their long standing Marquette service? Is there a potential for larger RJs (Eagle operated the CR7 to ORD for a while)? Or, is there a potential for MQT losing DL's service in the medium/long term.

DL now serves both MSP and DTW (I believe there was a hiatus in MSP service a few years ago) and the route isn't EAS. So, it must be making them money in some way, either directly or indirectly through their hub system. Still though, I've always been a little surprised (as a native to the area) that MQT can sustain 4 daily flights to 3 different hubs on 2 different airlines without an EAS subsidy. Does anyone know if both AA (MQ) and DL (OO) are generally happy with their arrangement at MQT? Are the services hanging on by a thread or are bigger planes (or who knows maybe even a 3rd operator) a possibility in the medium/long term?


I doubt Delta would ever cut DTW-MQT, simply to keep political goodwill in Lansing and DC.

But even outside of that, they must see something in the market. For instance: MSP-MQT ran year-round in years immediately preceding COVID, while (somewhat comparable market) MSP-TVC was seasonal. They must see something in the route, even w/ ORD-MQT existing too.
 
NoahV37
Posts: 12
Joined: Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:53 am

Re: The Rest of Michigan Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed Jul 21, 2021 2:49 am

keithvh2001 wrote:
N415XJ wrote:
So, something I've been thinking about lately in regards to Marquette (MQT/KSAW). With DL (OO) seemingly winding down 50-seat CR2 flying, what is the future looking like for their long standing Marquette service? Is there a potential for larger RJs (Eagle operated the CR7 to ORD for a while)? Or, is there a potential for MQT losing DL's service in the medium/long term.

DL now serves both MSP and DTW (I believe there was a hiatus in MSP service a few years ago) and the route isn't EAS. So, it must be making them money in some way, either directly or indirectly through their hub system. Still though, I've always been a little surprised (as a native to the area) that MQT can sustain 4 daily flights to 3 different hubs on 2 different airlines without an EAS subsidy. Does anyone know if both AA (MQ) and DL (OO) are generally happy with their arrangement at MQT? Are the services hanging on by a thread or are bigger planes (or who knows maybe even a 3rd operator) a possibility in the medium/long term?


I doubt Delta would ever cut DTW-MQT, simply to keep political goodwill in Lansing and DC.

But even outside of that, they must see something in the market. For instance: MSP-MQT ran year-round in years immediately preceding COVID, while (somewhat comparable market) MSP-TVC was seasonal. They must see something in the route, even w/ ORD-MQT existing too.


MQT-MSP has had surprisingly good load factors the past few years. Every month in 2019 averaged at least an 80% load factor with the summer averaging over 90%. In 2011, the last time I can find TVC-MSP being operated year round (I didn't think it was that long ago), it only averaged 65% load factors. Fall of 2020, when MSP/MQT-TVC were both being operated, MSP-TVC had a higher load factor than MQT-TVC, but MSP-TVC was cut after November while MQT-MSP was continued.
 
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JBo
Posts: 1828
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 7:23 am

Re: The Rest of Michigan Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed Jul 21, 2021 2:06 pm

KarlB737 wrote:
SkyVoice wrote:
Is there any future for more passenger air traffic at Muskegon (MKG) than the current EAS 2X/day schedule to ORD?


What service does MKG want that they don't have? Secondly, as always been the case is the close proximity to GRR which I believe is the biggest reason that MKG is slighted by airlines. As GRR has continued to grow by leaps and bounds in available air service it just makes it that much harder for MKG to get anything more.


In a perfect world, MKG would like to have service to ORD and DTW.

MKG is in a tough spot due to its proximity to GRR (even moreso than AZO). For as many people as there are who prefer to fly out of MKG because of the local, small-airport convenience, there are just as many who don't mind the hop over to GRR.

MKG used to draw a lot of business travel during the days of YX to MKE and XJ/NW to DTW. I have no idea what their business travel volume is ultimately going to look like following the pandemic, but I imagine that might have some influence on future service.

MKG most likely will not land a second carrier so long as they're under EAS, because that's generally just how it is. However, I saw recently where Yellowstone's (WYS) EAS contract with SkyWest has them flying to both DEN under UA and SLC under DL (albeit on a seasonal basis), so IF (and that's a really big IF) MKG were to talk SkyWest into submitting a similar proposal to serve both DTW (DL) and ORD (UA), and the DOT were to accept it, that'd pretty much be the only scenario where MKG gets expanded airline service in the foreseeable future (and that isn't very likely at all).

MKG's best potential for growth as an airport is on the GA side of things.
I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 8843
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: The Rest of Michigan Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed Jul 21, 2021 2:28 pm

JBo wrote:
KarlB737 wrote:
SkyVoice wrote:
Is there any future for more passenger air traffic at Muskegon (MKG) than the current EAS 2X/day schedule to ORD?


What service does MKG want that they don't have? Secondly, as always been the case is the close proximity to GRR which I believe is the biggest reason that MKG is slighted by airlines. As GRR has continued to grow by leaps and bounds in available air service it just makes it that much harder for MKG to get anything more.


In a perfect world, MKG would like to have service to ORD and DTW.

MKG is in a tough spot due to its proximity to GRR (even moreso than AZO). For as many people as there are who prefer to fly out of MKG because of the local, small-airport convenience, there are just as many who don't mind the hop over to GRR.

MKG used to draw a lot of business travel during the days of YX to MKE and XJ/NW to DTW. I have no idea what their business travel volume is ultimately going to look like following the pandemic, but I imagine that might have some influence on future service.

MKG most likely will not land a second carrier so long as they're under EAS, because that's generally just how it is. However, I saw recently where Yellowstone's (WYS) EAS contract with SkyWest has them flying to both DEN under UA and SLC under DL (albeit on a seasonal basis), so IF (and that's a really big IF) MKG were to talk SkyWest into submitting a similar proposal to serve both DTW (DL) and ORD (UA), and the DOT were to accept it, that'd pretty much be the only scenario where MKG gets expanded airline service in the foreseeable future (and that isn't very likely at all).

MKG's best potential for growth as an airport is on the GA side of things.

I believe OO / Skywest, like in the situation at WYS, has the ability to fly service-levels above that is funded / stipulated in the EAS contract at-risk. OO / Skywest, in addition to flying covered under capacity-purchase agreements, at least in the case for DL has an at-risk agreement some of the CR2 flying. Basically OO operates the flying and pro-rates a portion of the fare to DL, but OO is responsible for all the costs involved and bears the profit/loss risk of the flight. In the cast of WYS, the UA flying I believe is covered under the EAS contract, and the DL-SLC flying it at-risk and not subsided by EAS.

PLN is an example of this as the EAS agreement covers I believe a minimum of 12 CR2 flights/week on DTW-PLN. Which is the service pattern flown in the winter and shoulder seasons. In the summer OO flexes up during peak summer to upwards of 4-5 flights a day, an occasionally upgauges to CR9s.

I don't see anything else coming to MKG. Its too close, too in the shadow of GRR, dynamics of business travel have changed signfiicantly since the SF3 days of 20 years ago, and a lot more nonstop options out of GRR than years ago.
 
SyracuseAvGeek
Posts: 758
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:37 pm

Re: The Rest of Michigan Aviation Thread - 2021

Wed Jul 21, 2021 2:41 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
JBo wrote:
KarlB737 wrote:

What service does MKG want that they don't have? Secondly, as always been the case is the close proximity to GRR which I believe is the biggest reason that MKG is slighted by airlines. As GRR has continued to grow by leaps and bounds in available air service it just makes it that much harder for MKG to get anything more.


In a perfect world, MKG would like to have service to ORD and DTW.

MKG is in a tough spot due to its proximity to GRR (even moreso than AZO). For as many people as there are who prefer to fly out of MKG because of the local, small-airport convenience, there are just as many who don't mind the hop over to GRR.

MKG used to draw a lot of business travel during the days of YX to MKE and XJ/NW to DTW. I have no idea what their business travel volume is ultimately going to look like following the pandemic, but I imagine that might have some influence on future service.

MKG most likely will not land a second carrier so long as they're under EAS, because that's generally just how it is. However, I saw recently where Yellowstone's (WYS) EAS contract with SkyWest has them flying to both DEN under UA and SLC under DL (albeit on a seasonal basis), so IF (and that's a really big IF) MKG were to talk SkyWest into submitting a similar proposal to serve both DTW (DL) and ORD (UA), and the DOT were to accept it, that'd pretty much be the only scenario where MKG gets expanded airline service in the foreseeable future (and that isn't very likely at all).

MKG's best potential for growth as an airport is on the GA side of things.

I believe OO / Skywest, like in the situation at WYS, has the ability to fly service-levels above that is funded / stipulated in the EAS contract at-risk. OO / Skywest, in addition to flying covered under capacity-purchase agreements, at least in the case for DL has an at-risk agreement some of the CR2 flying. Basically OO operates the flying and pro-rates a portion of the fare to DL, but OO is responsible for all the costs involved and bears the profit/loss risk of the flight. In the cast of WYS, the UA flying I believe is covered under the EAS contract, and the DL-SLC flying it at-risk and not subsided by EAS.

PLN is an example of this as the EAS agreement covers I believe a minimum of 12 CR2 flights/week on DTW-PLN. Which is the service pattern flown in the winter and shoulder seasons. In the summer OO flexes up during peak summer to upwards of 4-5 flights a day, an occasionally upgauges to CR9s.

I don't see anything else coming to MKG. Its too close, too in the shadow of GRR, dynamics of business travel have changed signfiicantly since the SF3 days of 20 years ago, and a lot more nonstop options out of GRR than years ago.


MKG is also at risk of losing subsidy money, saw it in an article that due to GRR’s size and proximity. If GRR gets too large and reaches a certain status then MKG will loose eligibility for the EAS program.
"I haven't been everywhere yet, but it's on my list."
 
SyracuseAvGeek
Posts: 758
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:37 pm

Re: The Rest of Michigan Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu Jul 29, 2021 4:14 pm

The MSP flight has returned to Kalamazoo…

https://youtu.be/ix389_HHZSg

It goes away again in August though. When does it come back after that?
"I haven't been everywhere yet, but it's on my list."
 
9w748capt
Posts: 1812
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:27 am

Re: The Rest of Michigan Aviation Thread - 2021

Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:39 pm

SyracuseAvGeek wrote:
The MSP flight has returned to Kalamazoo…

https://youtu.be/ix389_HHZSg

It goes away again in August though. When does it come back after that?


Cool video! Not to pick nits, but it's not true that MSP-AZO hasn't operated "in over a year" - we flew it last November. It ended shortly after that, but it's still been less than a year.

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