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Jetport
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Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Thu May 27, 2021 6:06 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
PhilMcCrackin wrote:
The plane is a failure economically for them. They're just trying to spin it as, "Oh, we're soooooo concerned about the environment that we must remove this aircraft from our fleet" when the time finally comes.

I'd wager the A380 is probably more economical in terms of pollution per passenger or per mile than most aircraft are. Certainly more so than the 757/767/A330/A340/first gen 777s that continue to ply our skies.


You lose that wager according to this ICCT report. The A380 is inferior in CO2 emissions per RPK compared to 777-200, 332, and even 767-300.

https://theicct.org/sites/default/files ... ct2020.pdf


Thanks for the fascinating link, information like this is why I still spend time on Anet. The only big surprise is how good the 767-300 is, better than the A330-200, I find that rather shocking. :o I guess this shows why there is an opportunity for a lighter weight MOM aircraft to replace the 767. For those interested widebody gCO2/RPK is on page 18 and narrow body on page 17 of the linked report.

The expected trend for larger aircraft and newer aircraft to have better gCO2/RPK mostly holds up, except for the 767-300 on the good side and the A380 on the bad side. The 757-200 is still decent, which shows again that size matters for emissions per passenger. You can also see the A321 moved ahead of the 737-900 from 2013 to 2019. I would guess this was from the addition of the winglets to the A321?
Last edited by Jetport on Thu May 27, 2021 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
HTCone
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Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Thu May 27, 2021 6:06 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
Oh gosh that is precious. The reason the A380 was a mistake was financial. It did not make money for Airbus nor for the carriers who bought it, relative to alternatives like 77W. With the possible exception of Emirates, and that argument relies heavily on goodwill.

To paint this story with 2020s climate ethics at the core is highly revisionist and self-serving, although convenient.


Broadly agree although BA did make the 380 work for them. QF say the same. A very niche aircraft that arrived at least 10 years too late for the market. The GFC certainly didn't help. Who knows if it might barely have been a success without that. COVID might do the same to the 777X.
 
Jetport
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Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Thu May 27, 2021 6:22 pm

zkojq wrote:
PhilMcCrackin wrote:
The plane is a failure economically for them. They're just trying to spin it as, "Oh, we're soooooo concerned about the environment that we must remove this aircraft from our fleet" when the time finally comes.


He'd be singing the plane's praises if his A380 fleet had the economies of scale and was bringing in the premium revenue like his neighbor to the South East, environment be damned.

I do get tired of business decisions being turned into greenwash.

MIflyer12 wrote:
PhilMcCrackin wrote:
The plane is a failure economically for them. They're just trying to spin it as, "Oh, we're soooooo concerned about the environment that we must remove this aircraft from our fleet" when the time finally comes.

I'd wager the A380 is probably more economical in terms of pollution per passenger or per mile than most aircraft are. Certainly more so than the 757/767/A330/A340/first gen 777s that continue to ply our skies.


You lose that wager according to this ICCT report. The A380 is inferior in CO2 emissions per RPK compared to 777-200, 332, and even 767-300.

https://theicct.org/sites/default/files ... ct2020.pdf


Only because very few (if any) 767-300s and A330-200s have first class seating. Not really an apples for apples comparison.

Revelation wrote:

smartplane wrote:
AAB is likely winding up Boeing and STC. How boring would commercial aviation be without these two?


Hits the nail on the head, says I. We already see the boredom coming. We've lost many engaging people such as John Leary, Tom Enders, Tom Williams and the two Randy's. STC's pushed back retirement several times, eventually he will go I presume. I'm not seeing any signs that we'll get anyone interesting to replace them.


It's a good point. I hadn't realised how many colorful figures the industry has lost over the past few years. Oh how I wish John Leahy had a twitter account!


I have been on a lot of 767-300's from at least 6 different airlines (4 US base, 2 EU based) and absolutely every one or them had a business or first class cabin.
 
AAEK192
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Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Thu May 27, 2021 6:44 pm

Interesting. What about the delivery process of the first 4 QR 787-9's , Mr Al Baker? ;)
 
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ER757
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Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Thu May 27, 2021 7:26 pm

N62NA wrote:
Reminds me of the introduction of the 747. For several of the USA airlines, it was a "vanity" purchase. DL, NA and EA (though they only leased from PA) discovered early on that the 747 was simply not a good fit for their route network. It took AA a few more years to come around to the same conclusion.

This was the very first thing I thought of when I saw AAB's remarks - throwback to the "me too" orders for the 747 - in addition to the carriers you named, I'd throw Braniff in as well. This just a 21st Century Middle-Eastern version of the same thing when QR and EY bought the whale. History repeats itself. TG, OZ and MH are probably suffering buyer's remorse as well.
I'll say this for the guy, he never fails to keep us A.Nuts entertained
 
smartplane
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Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Thu May 27, 2021 9:00 pm

Who was the CEO when the order was placed?

Who was the CEO when the first aircraft was delivered?

Who was the CEO when the last aircraft was delivered?

What words of support has the CEO made in respect to the green movement?
 
oldJoe
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Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Thu May 27, 2021 9:18 pm

smartplane wrote:
Who was the CEO when the order was placed?

Who was the CEO when the first aircraft was delivered?

Who was the CEO when the last aircraft was delivered?

What words of support has the CEO made in respect to the green movement?


1 - AAB
2 - AAB
3 - AAB
4 - NOTHING
 
TC957
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Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Thu May 27, 2021 10:39 pm

In his dismissal of the A321XLR, saying he " doesn't want his passengers flying up to 10 hrs in a narrow body ", he doesn't want them flying in the biggest, most comfortable, quiet, spacious and the only one with a F cabin either then.
 
Curiousflyer
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Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Fri May 28, 2021 1:04 am

All is said above and just to reiterate, the 380 is one of the most ecological planes... as long as you can fill it with passengers. Emirates, Singapore and maybe Qantas or Korean can. Maybe even ANA or BA. The others failed.
 
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adambrau
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Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Fri May 28, 2021 2:05 am

Curiousflyer wrote:
All is said above and just to reiterate, the 380 is one of the most ecological planes... as long as you can fill it with passengers. Emirates, Singapore and maybe Qantas or Korean can. Maybe even ANA or BA. The others failed.


We (AF) used to often fill 2x daily A380 JFK-CDG frequently before COVID hit. The fleet was only 10. The aircraft was in need of a major refurbishment and the pandemic killed that plan. It was a wonderful aircraft to fly on but JFK T1 was not designed for it. A great decision by our management to say 'au revoir'.
 
CALMSP
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Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Fri May 28, 2021 2:11 am

adambrau wrote:
Curiousflyer wrote:
All is said above and just to reiterate, the 380 is one of the most ecological planes... as long as you can fill it with passengers. Emirates, Singapore and maybe Qantas or Korean can. Maybe even ANA or BA. The others failed.


We (AF) used to often fill 2x daily A380 JFK-CDG frequently before COVID hit. The fleet was only 10. The aircraft was in need of a major refurbishment and the pandemic killed that plan. It was a wonderful aircraft to fly on but JFK T1 was not designed for it. A great decision by our management to say 'au revoir'.


and taking QR from CDG on the 380 was a miserable experience as well!!
 
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adambrau
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Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Fri May 28, 2021 2:27 am

CALMSP wrote:
adambrau wrote:
Curiousflyer wrote:
All is said above and just to reiterate, the 380 is one of the most ecological planes... as long as you can fill it with passengers. Emirates, Singapore and maybe Qantas or Korean can. Maybe even ANA or BA. The others failed.


We (AF) used to often fill 2x daily A380 JFK-CDG frequently before COVID hit. The fleet was only 10. The aircraft was in need of a major refurbishment and the pandemic killed that plan. It was a wonderful aircraft to fly on but JFK T1 was not designed for it. A great decision by our management to say 'au revoir'.


and taking QR from CDG on the 380 was a miserable experience as well!!


lol. Boarding/de-boarding 550 passengers was a nightmare. At JFK we only had two jet bridges where I understand other worldwide airports had three. In any case the big bird is now long gone for us!
 
Aither
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Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Fri May 28, 2021 8:23 am

When you consider what is more eco friendly it's not only about the engines. Larger aircraft are parts of systems allowing to increase load factors per flight. These large hubs that need very large aircraft are reducing the number of flights (and aircraft), which has also a positive impact on environment.
It's way more complex that what comes out of the engines.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Fri May 28, 2021 8:38 am

Galwayman wrote:
Hmmm I think he'll find the densification of his cramped 777s is easily his biggest mistake

And yet, nearly everyone else in the industry also came to the same numerical conclusion that that was the optimal use for such aircraft.... thus, what do you have to show that that was a "mistake?"
 
marcelh
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Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Fri May 28, 2021 10:10 am

Jetport wrote:
zkojq wrote:
PhilMcCrackin wrote:
The plane is a failure economically for them. They're just trying to spin it as, "Oh, we're soooooo concerned about the environment that we must remove this aircraft from our fleet" when the time finally comes.


He'd be singing the plane's praises if his A380 fleet had the economies of scale and was bringing in the premium revenue like his neighbor to the South East, environment be damned.

I do get tired of business decisions being turned into greenwash.

MIflyer12 wrote:

You lose that wager according to this ICCT report. The A380 is inferior in CO2 emissions per RPK compared to 777-200, 332, and even 767-300.

https://theicct.org/sites/default/files ... ct2020.pdf


Only because very few (if any) 767-300s and A330-200s have first class seating. Not really an apples for apples comparison.

Revelation wrote:



Hits the nail on the head, says I. We already see the boredom coming. We've lost many engaging people such as John Leary, Tom Enders, Tom Williams and the two Randy's. STC's pushed back retirement several times, eventually he will go I presume. I'm not seeing any signs that we'll get anyone interesting to replace them.


It's a good point. I hadn't realised how many colorful figures the industry has lost over the past few years. Oh how I wish John Leahy had a twitter account!


I have been on a lot of 767-300's from at least 6 different airlines (4 US base, 2 EU based) and absolutely every one or them had a business or first class cabin.

So? It’s a superficial analysis only using averages.
Without mentioning the lower and upper ranges it means not a lot. ANA premium heavy 77W with just over 200 seats and ANA domestic 773 with over 500 seats are on average equal……
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Fri May 28, 2021 11:09 am

CraigAnderson wrote:
Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake”

https://www.executivetraveller.com/news ... st-mistake

AAB cites the "the rising fuel price" as one strike against the A380 but once again trots out his newly discovered green credentials, saying "the damage it does to the environment should be priority, and not the comfort" and "people who are very conscious about emissions will avoid travelling on an A380."

Is this a knee-jerk reaction against 'flight shaming' or do you really think people are that particular about which aircraft they choose to fly on, or not to fly on, due to emissions? Would passengers really choose to fly on say an A350 instead of an A380 solely out of concern about the environment? I don't think so!


If you´re so concerned about the environment how about removing First Class and Business and making everyone fly economy?

No, because that would make us less money.

Shut up, then!
 
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Boeing757100
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Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Fri May 28, 2021 3:35 pm

TC957 wrote:
So...for a small country that has 3 VIP 748's, 3 A340's, 2 A330's, and 6 A320/319CJ's to ferry the odd bigwig and their hangers-on around, does AAB knock on their door saying they shouldn't use them for enviormental issues ?



Isn't one of the 747-8s for sale?
 
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Boeing757100
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Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Fri May 28, 2021 3:42 pm

As long as a airline can 100% fill the plane, it is better for the environment than a car. If the QR A380 is eco-unfriendly, it is less the plane's fault and more the airline/pax fault for not being able to fill the plane, as many have stated in this thread.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Fri May 28, 2021 3:51 pm

MikeMidd2001 wrote:
I think there are two different things here -

Was climate a factor when they made the business decision to buy A380s and build a network around them? Much less so.

Is climate a big factor now, and are consumers increasingly conscious of their impact when flying? Absolutely.

Is there data and research that shows it is a factor, alongside many others, when picking a flight? Also absolutely.

Is Qatar dumping the plane solely for environmental reasons? Almost certainly not. But are they aware that consumers are increasingly aware of their climate impact, including from some important markets for Qatar, so including this in their explanation of why they will move away from the A380 is a useful point? I think so.

Seems you aren't going to stem the tide of the lynch mob that is forming.

Seems "green culture" is stronger near you than me.

No one around me has expressed a drop of concern on how their air travel plans may impact the environment.

Yet, outside of my environment, it seems the air travel industry is losing the PR battle with regard to environmentalism.

Maybe AAB is doing the wise thing by greenwashing himself early and often.

smartplane wrote:
Who was the CEO when the order was placed?

Who was the CEO when the first aircraft was delivered?

Who was the CEO when the last aircraft was delivered?

What words of support has the CEO made in respect to the green movement?

Hope you aren't participating in blame culture, lol.

Curiousflyer wrote:
All is said above and just to reiterate, the 380 is one of the most ecological planes... as long as you can fill it with passengers. Emirates, Singapore and maybe Qantas or Korean can. Maybe even ANA or BA. The others failed.

EK's last pre-covid published load factors were in the high 70s, so even they were not filling it.

It's no accident they dropped pending orders for another 39 A380s and converted them to A350s.

Meanwhile, EK has 114 A380s on the ramp, most not flying, and more coming.

AAB may be a wind-up artist, but he does have STC in a very exposed position.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Fri May 28, 2021 4:24 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Going by the atmosfair compensation calculator for DOH-NRT in Economy values are:

A380: 1306 Kg CO2/ 2527 Kg other climate effects (Water vapor/Ozone etc)
A359: 1023 Kg CO2/ 1980 Kg
A351: 1024 Kg CO2/ 1983 Kg
77W: 1191 Kg CO2/ 2306 Kg
789: 1038 Kg CO2/ 2008 Kg

If people made their flight decision based on CO2 emissions, they´d only fly on A359/A351.....

best regards
Thomas


So you think there's a big difference between 1038 Kg and 1024 Kg, but you ignore the rather sizeable difference between 1306 Kg and 1191 Kg? Obduracy leads some people into pretty silly arguments that do not stand tests of intellectual adequacy and honesty.
 
VV
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Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Fri May 28, 2021 4:32 pm

What was his smallest mistake?

Is there any relation between the size of their mistake and the size of the aircraft?
 
tommy1808
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Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Sat May 29, 2021 2:08 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Going by the atmosfair compensation calculator for DOH-NRT in Economy values are:

A380: 1306 Kg CO2/ 2527 Kg other climate effects (Water vapor/Ozone etc)
A359: 1023 Kg CO2/ 1980 Kg
A351: 1024 Kg CO2/ 1983 Kg
77W: 1191 Kg CO2/ 2306 Kg
789: 1038 Kg CO2/ 2008 Kg

If people made their flight decision based on CO2 emissions, they´d only fly on A359/A351.....

best regards
Thomas


So you think there's a big difference between 1038 Kg and 1024 Kg, but you ignore the rather sizeable difference between 1306 Kg and 1191 Kg?


If people chose their flight by CO2 emissions, they'd obviously only accept the lowest emissions. That's a digital decision.

On top of that they would rarely ever fly via DOH, considering that plenty of connections would emit more than a shorter non-stop flight. And not fly in classes above economy.

Best regards
Thomas
 
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seahawk
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Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Sat May 29, 2021 2:26 pm

So I guess he will be be delighted when the Green party in Germany decides to reduce the traffic rights of QR to Germany due to environmental concerns?
 
xwb777
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Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Sat May 29, 2021 8:30 pm

Simpe Flying was stating that AAB is ready to order new planes to replace both the A350s and B787s, if any manufacturer commits to a new type.

Link: https://simpleflying.com/qatar-airways- ... lacements/
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Sat May 29, 2021 10:04 pm

xwb777 wrote:
Simpe Flying was stating that AAB is ready to order new planes to replace both the A350s and B787s, if any manufacturer commits to a new type.

Link: https://simpleflying.com/qatar-airways- ... lacements/


LOL what does that even mean ?! It sounds psycho. How is it environmentally friendly to retire class leading aircraft like B787 and A350, and how could he afford to effectively not follow any fleet plan?
 
CALMSP
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Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Sat May 29, 2021 11:13 pm

VV wrote:
What was his smallest mistake?

Is there any relation between the size of their mistake and the size of the aircraft?


he doesn't have any, this is his first ever mistake! :roll:
 
Astronage
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Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Sun May 30, 2021 12:30 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
PhilMcCrackin wrote:
The plane is a failure economically for them. They're just trying to spin it as, "Oh, we're soooooo concerned about the environment that we must remove this aircraft from our fleet" when the time finally comes.

I'd wager the A380 is probably more economical in terms of pollution per passenger or per mile than most aircraft are. Certainly more so than the 757/767/A330/A340/first gen 777s that continue to ply our skies.


You lose that wager according to this ICCT report. The A380 is inferior in CO2 emissions per RPK compared to 777-200, 332, and even 767-300.

https://theicct.org/sites/default/files ... ct2020.pdf


I'd argue that based on that metric used, there was no way the A380 could win. Seemingly all the manufacturers have decided to go for a layout maximizing passengers' personal space. I'd wager that in a high-density configuration thing would be reversed.
 
Lootess
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Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Sun May 30, 2021 12:54 am

AAB basically said the same thing to Sam Chui during a recent interview at Hammad airport. A380's high cost structure issue in today's environment, but he closed out saying the environmental impact would eventually be a passenger concern.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8u0matym1Y

He's not wrong, it's not a whole lot different than why carriers like AF have pulled the plug entirely, I expect Qatar will eventually do the same.
 
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a36001
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Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Sun May 30, 2021 1:14 am

God I love climate change! you can blame it for anything!
 
ewt340
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Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Sun May 30, 2021 2:00 am

LCDFlight wrote:
xwb777 wrote:
Simpe Flying was stating that AAB is ready to order new planes to replace both the A350s and B787s, if any manufacturer commits to a new type.

Link: https://simpleflying.com/qatar-airways- ... lacements/


LOL what does that even mean ?! It sounds psycho. How is it environmentally friendly to retire class leading aircraft like B787 and A350, and how could he afford to effectively not follow any fleet plan?


To be fair, Qatar took their first B787 back in 2012, that's almost a decade ago. For them, the economics of B787 became a bit outdated since they enjoy the benefits of this plane almost a decade ago.

Time fly by so fast. Replacing B787 makes tons of sense for them, especially if we are talking about 2025s.

Just like how A380 suddenly became extremely uneconomical in the last few years.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Sun May 30, 2021 3:57 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
xwb777 wrote:
Simpe Flying was stating that AAB is ready to order new planes to replace both the A350s and B787s, if any manufacturer commits to a new type.

Link: https://simpleflying.com/qatar-airways- ... lacements/


LOL what does that even mean ?! It sounds psycho. How is it environmentally friendly to retire class leading aircraft like B787 and A350, and how could he afford to effectively not follow any fleet plan?

It's pretty clear to me AAB and QR are working to different rules than most of the airline business. All that money lost on Air Berlin and Air Italy just rolls off their back like water off a duck. Writing off ten A380s is going to be more of the same.
 
TC957
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Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Sun May 30, 2021 8:47 pm

CALMSP wrote:
VV wrote:
What was his smallest mistake?

Is there any relation between the size of their mistake and the size of the aircraft?


he doesn't have any, this is his first ever mistake! :roll:

Think he mentioned getting those 4 A346HGW's was a mistake too. Maybe not in as many words, but he certainly wasn't complimentary about them.
 
Vladex
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Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Mon May 31, 2021 12:55 am

Revelation wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
xwb777 wrote:
Simpe Flying was stating that AAB is ready to order new planes to replace both the A350s and B787s, if any manufacturer commits to a new type.

Link: https://simpleflying.com/qatar-airways- ... lacements/


LOL what does that even mean ?! It sounds psycho. How is it environmentally friendly to retire class leading aircraft like B787 and A350, and how could he afford to effectively not follow any fleet plan?

It's pretty clear to me AAB and QR are working to different rules than most of the airline business. All that money lost on Air Berlin and Air Italy just rolls off their back like water off a duck. Writing off ten A380s is going to be more of the same.


I hate to correct you but that's Etihad with Air Berlin and Air Italy was pretty much stillborn.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Mon May 31, 2021 1:00 am

TC957 wrote:
CALMSP wrote:
VV wrote:
What was his smallest mistake?

Is there any relation between the size of their mistake and the size of the aircraft?


he doesn't have any, this is his first ever mistake! :roll:

Think he mentioned getting those 4 A346HGW's was a mistake too. Maybe not in as many words, but he certainly wasn't complimentary about them.

Just don't get AAB started on carpet... ;)

He has been a character.
 
eraugrad02
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Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Mon May 31, 2021 1:34 am

What about the 747-8? Is it more or less fuel efficient than the A380?
 
ewt340
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Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Mon May 31, 2021 2:11 am

eraugrad02 wrote:
What about the 747-8? Is it more or less fuel efficient than the A380?


Doesn't even matter, even B777-300ER became a bit too uneconomical these days. B747-8 is out of the question.
 
777luver
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Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Mon May 31, 2021 5:18 am

ewt340 wrote:
eraugrad02 wrote:
What about the 747-8? Is it more or less fuel efficient than the A380?


Doesn't even matter, even B777-300ER became a bit too uneconomical these days. B747-8 is out of the question.


Care to elaborate on that statement?
 
tommy1808
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Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Mon May 31, 2021 5:26 am

777luver wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
eraugrad02 wrote:
What about the 747-8? Is it more or less fuel efficient than the A380?


Doesn't even matter, even B777-300ER became a bit too uneconomical these days. B747-8 is out of the question.


Care to elaborate on that statement?


The 77W was the most fuel efficient wide body about two decades ago, but that is way in the past with 787s and A350 flying in large numbers. And with the 748i not being more fuel efficient as the 77W, there is no advantage for it as well.

best regards
Thomas
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Mon May 31, 2021 6:36 am

tommy1808 wrote:
777luver wrote:
ewt340 wrote:

Doesn't even matter, even B777-300ER became a bit too uneconomical these days. B747-8 is out of the question.


Care to elaborate on that statement?


The 77W was the most fuel efficient wide body about two decades ago, but that is way in the past with 787s and A350 flying in large numbers. And with the 748i not being more fuel efficient as the 77W, there is no advantage for it as well.

best regards
Thomas


Two decades ago? it entered service in 2004, the first 787 entered service in 2011, however that’s a different class as the 77W replaced a lot of 744 fleets. The 77W is uneconomical at the moment because of COVID, it’s a good Preighter for several airlines however not being used to much for pax as the 787/359 are smaller and more efficient in that regard.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14915
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Mon May 31, 2021 6:44 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
777luver wrote:

Care to elaborate on that statement?


The 77W was the most fuel efficient wide body about two decades ago, but that is way in the past with 787s and A350 flying in large numbers. And with the 748i not being more fuel efficient as the 77W, there is no advantage for it as well.

best regards
Thomas


Two decades ago? it entered service in 2004


that was 17 years ago = about two decades

787/359 are smaller and more efficient in that regard.


787-10s and A35Ks make the 77W look like a fuel guzzler since the delta is 2+ times the difference between an 77W and A346.

best regards
Thomas
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 9147
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Mon May 31, 2021 7:10 am

tommy1808 wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

The 77W was the most fuel efficient wide body about two decades ago, but that is way in the past with 787s and A350 flying in large numbers. And with the 748i not being more fuel efficient as the 77W, there is no advantage for it as well.

best regards
Thomas


Two decades ago? it entered service in 2004


that was 17 years ago = about two decades

787/359 are smaller and more efficient in that regard.


787-10s and A35Ks make the 77W look like a fuel guzzler since the delta is 2+ times the difference between an 77W and A346.

best regards
Thomas


That’s an odd way of looking at it, you would hope it was the most efficient in its class as ETS. It remained the most efficient in its class until the 35K entered service in 2017/18, the 35K has hardly eaten the 77Ws lunch but many of the 77Ws are young.

The 78J/35K are very efficient but it doesn’t make the 77W inefficient, but in these times you do want your most efficient aircraft flying which varies by airline and by aircraft freight hauling ability.
 
VV
Posts: 2400
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:03 pm

Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Mon May 31, 2021 8:14 am

TC957 wrote:
CALMSP wrote:
VV wrote:
What was his smallest mistake?

Is there any relation between the size of their mistake and the size of the aircraft?


he doesn't have any, this is his first ever mistake! :roll:

Think he mentioned getting those 4 A346HGW's was a mistake too. Maybe not in as many words, but he certainly wasn't complimentary about them.


I think they are quite happy with the A350-1000, otherwise we would have heard from him. Or is it too early for him to whine on this aircraft?
 
chonetsao
Posts: 1235
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2005 3:55 pm

Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Mon May 31, 2021 8:21 am

Wasn't Al Maha airlines in Saudi and Air Italy in Italy the better contenders for the biggest mistake in Qatar Airways? And then the investment in CX was the worst timed investments?
 
xwb777
Posts: 1489
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:13 pm

Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Mon May 31, 2021 9:02 am

What about copying your neighbor and ordering everything they order, Mr AAB?
 
User avatar
vhtje
Posts: 1433
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:40 pm

Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Mon May 31, 2021 9:34 am

tommy1808 wrote:
777luver wrote:
ewt340 wrote:

Doesn't even matter, even B777-300ER became a bit too uneconomical these days. B747-8 is out of the question.


Care to elaborate on that statement?


The 77W was the most fuel efficient wide body about two decades ago, but that is way in the past with 787s and A350 flying in large numbers. And with the 748i not being more fuel efficient as the 77W, there is no advantage for it as well.

best regards
Thomas


Quite, but it would still be interesting to understand the economics of the 77W vs 748 vs A380. I'm no Boeing fanboy, but there has to be a reason why LH ditched the A380 but opted to keep the 748, and as it's flagship aircraft, no less. I would really love to see LH's or KE's numbers.
 
Opus99
Posts: 3553
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Mon May 31, 2021 9:53 am

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... aunch-777x

Akbar says he’s in a bit of a row with Airbus.

If they do not come to an agreement he won’t take their aircraft

He now claims other airlines in which they have a holding with will also cause stress. I wonder what the issue is. They’ve already agreed to delay deliveries. So what else could it be
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 9147
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Mon May 31, 2021 10:06 am

vhtje wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
777luver wrote:

Care to elaborate on that statement?


The 77W was the most fuel efficient wide body about two decades ago, but that is way in the past with 787s and A350 flying in large numbers. And with the 748i not being more fuel efficient as the 77W, there is no advantage for it as well.

best regards
Thomas


Quite, but it would still be interesting to understand the economics of the 77W vs 748 vs A380. I'm no Boeing fanboy, but there has to be a reason why LH ditched the A380 but opted to keep the 748, and as it's flagship aircraft, no less. I would really love to see LH's or KE's numbers.


The A380 is simply to big as is any 747 atm but for LH the 748 must have more potential.
 
Pelly
Posts: 209
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:13 pm

Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Mon May 31, 2021 10:10 am

xwb777 wrote:
What about copying your neighbor and ordering everything they order, Mr AAB?


Indeed QR copied EK when they joined an alliance, when they ordered the A320 family, when they operated narrowbody long haul, when they were launch customers of the A350 and 787, when they started an executive aircraft division. Even with the products, they copied Emirates when they launched flat beds in first and business, when they launched direct aisle, when they launched live TV, when they had doors in Business class. Copying EK is the only thing that defines QR.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14915
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Mon May 31, 2021 10:23 am

vhtje wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
777luver wrote:

Care to elaborate on that statement?


The 77W was the most fuel efficient wide body about two decades ago, but that is way in the past with 787s and A350 flying in large numbers. And with the 748i not being more fuel efficient as the 77W, there is no advantage for it as well.

best regards
Thomas


Quite, but it would still be interesting to understand the economics of the 77W vs 748 vs A380. I'm no Boeing fanboy, but there has to be a reason why LH ditched the A380 but opted to keep the 748, and as it's flagship aircraft, no less. I would really love to see LH's or KE's numbers.


I would think the 748i is pretty much on a level regarding fuel burn, but with less capacity risk.

Leeham had some guesstimates a few year back when discussing an A380neo.

https://leehamnews.com/2014/02/03/updat ... -involved/

best regards
Thomas
 
jmmadrid
Posts: 432
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2016 4:00 pm

Re: Qatar Airways CEO: “the A380 was our biggest mistake.”

Mon May 31, 2021 11:48 am

TC957 wrote:
CALMSP wrote:
VV wrote:
What was his smallest mistake?

Is there any relation between the size of their mistake and the size of the aircraft?


he doesn't have any, this is his first ever mistake! :roll:

Think he mentioned getting those 4 A346HGW's was a mistake too. Maybe not in as many words, but he certainly wasn't complimentary about them.

When they first got their 4 Airbus 340-600 they used them to fly to London. They were their biggest airplane at the time and they filled them up almost every day. And this was at a time when Qatar didn't have so many slots at Heathrow nor many connecting banks at Doha, so I guess they served their purpose well-ish.

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